Of Baths and Bivalves with Avery Trufelman

Avery Trufelman returns for a story about the ethics of scallops and boundaries. We are now on YouTube. Be sure to follow us on there at @DefectorMedia https://www.youtube.com/@DefectorMedia where you can watch today’s episode. Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets! https://defector.com/normal-gossip-podcast You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch https://defectorstore.com/collections/normal-gossip or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com https://defector.com/products/normalgossip. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page:https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FMp1Lgexckhvr8fSQ7FlczPQ-Whx0s8zMyM6M2TKhh4/edit?usp=sharing. Follow the show on Instagram @normalgossip https://www.instagram.com/normalgossip/, and if you have gossip, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae https://www.instagram.com/heyydnae/?hl=en) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae https://www.instagram.com/seera_sharae/?hl=en) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira https://instagram.com/jaetowlevieira?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==). Our audio engineer is Samantha Gattsek. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Theme music composed by Hrishikesh Hirway. Normal Gossip is a proud member ofRadiotopia https://www.radiotopia.fm/. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hey there. It's Robyn from PRX. If you're a longtime listener of Radiotopia, you may know that we had a podcast that ran from 2016 to 2020 discussing every episode of the show The West Wing. Well, I'm excited to tell you The West Wing Weekly is back. Joshua Molina, who starred on The West Wing as Will Bailey, and Rishikesh Hirway, creator and host of Song Exploder, have reunited to discuss the hit Netflix political thriller, The Diplomat. Just as they did in their original run, they're discussing each episode of the series in sequence, joined by special guests from the show and from the real world of diplomacy. Rishi and Josh will be wrapping up the first season with a special live taping at Union Chapel in London on November 14th. Subscribe now to The West Wing Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, wow. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What? Oh, my gosh. What?

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Surprise. Welcome back to Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton. And in each episode of this podcast, we're gonna bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Last week's episode was supposed to be the finale of season 10, but we thought y'all deserved an extra treat. So we've got another round of gossip for you. Today's guest is not just an old friend of the show. She is also one of our colleagues at Radiotopia. I'm happy to say that Avery Trufelman is here in the studio with me today. Avery Trufelman is the host and producer of the podcast Articles of Interest, which has been named one of the best podcasts of the year by The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Atlantic,

• 1:44Speaker 02

  and so many others. You might also remember Avery from the Sexy Mushrooms episode of Normal Gossip, all the way back in season six. Avery, hello.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited for this episode. We've got a great story today.

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Oh, good. I'm like, what's in store?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  But before we get into that, I wanted to ask, because you were on season six with our lovely dowager queen, Kelsey McKinnney. And so I wanted to know if your relationship has changed with gossip since then.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  I mean, last time I was on, I talked about how I have to be more careful about talking shit, because that's like the only time. I very rarely get like, recognized, because I'm not on a video podcast. But the only times that I have been recognized, I've been like, talking shit or gossiping. No lessons have been learned. I'm still like, getting recognized in horrendous, embarrassing ways that I need to stop.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  I feel like this has also happened to me. The very first time I got recognized by voice, just in Brooklyn, I was talking shit to my best friend from college. We've known each other since 2013. And I don't even, I think it might have been about a coworker, quite frankly, or an old one. And I just hear, are you Rachel Hampton?

• 3:12Speaker 02

  And I'm like, yeah.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  Okay, but see, that's on brand for you. Like, that's

• 3:18Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  That's good. I remember, I was talking to someone, like, waiting in line to get a burrito. I was like, I just feel like he just wants to fuck his mother. And then someone was like, Avery Trufelman? I was like, woo. And hello. Yes, hi. Oh, my God.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  But I also kind of feel like that's on brand, in that it is like, a history reference.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  An interrogation of

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Oedipal complexes.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  You brought it back. And I feel like that's what Articles of Interest does so well, is it brings it back.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  You're good. Okay, good job.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Can you tell how I delude myself in my personal life into being like, actually,

• 3:59Speaker 03

  Expertly.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  that was a critical investigation, and I'm not embarrassed at all?

• 4:06Speaker 02

  I have some gossip for you. Are you ready?

• 4:09Speaker 03

  I'm ready.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Some of y'all may know that I used to host a twice weekly show about internet culture. And after doing that for three years, I basically abandoned social media. You can barely catch me online unless I absolutely need to. The one exception is Reddit. I swear to God, it is the one social media app that I check every single day, because they have everything I need. I mean, I turn to my favorite subreddits, like r/girldinnerdiaries when I'm bored, or r/oneorangebraincell, because who doesn't want to see an orange cat? Or sometimes I'm just looking for recipes, or I'm looking for someone to talk to me

• 4:55Speaker 02

  about secret lives of Mormon wives. Reddit has useful answers, real perspectives, and communities built around whatever you are into or figuring out next. Download the Reddit app today. Y'all, for months, I have been in search of just a simple, black, crew-neck cardigan. And I finally found exactly what I was looking for. I should have just gone to Quince as soon as I started thinking of this, but for some reason, I didn't. Well, Quince had exactly what I wanted. Their Mongolian cashmere cropped crew cardigan is, in fact, so cute, and their reviews are so good, that despite the fact that I went in saying, I

• 5:37Speaker 02

  need a black cardigan to wear with everything, I took 15 minutes to decide what color I was getting. Do I need a red cardigan? Maybe. I can't promise I'm not gonna buy it later, but I did get the black one. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Normal Gossip. It's the best way to support the show. We've been cooking up a fun, special holiday project for y'all over here at Normal Gossip.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  And usually, when work gets crazy, I kind of just try to continue my life, like nothing's happening. But recently, thanks to therapy, this time around, I was like, what if I did not try to pour from an empty cup? And that is what growing feels like. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, then I think you should check out today's sponsor, Growth Therapy. Growth Therapy is built for therapy that actually feels like care. You can find therapy based on what matters most to you, like insurance taken, mental health specialties, identity, or night and weekend availability, if you're working a lot. Book your first session

• 6:57Speaker 02

  in minutes, and you can start in as little as two days. Sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on your insurance plan. Prepare for holiday glimmers instead of holiday stress. Visit growththerapy.com/gossip to get started today. That is growththerapy.com/gossip. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Our story today is about vegetarians.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Okay. I was one.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  That is what I've heard. I was told you have some experience with the meatless lifestyle. What is your current persuasion? And how has it changed over time?

• 7:43Speaker 03

  Well, now I eat fish. Because my, well,

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Fish is great.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  And as mad as I'm upset with people being moral purists, I used to be like, as vegan as possible, as vegetarian as possible. But, I don't know, I remember when I went to visit a friend in Taiwan. I was like, you're not gonna get anything vegan or vegetarian here. Like, you just gotta be with people. You can't be that annoying person who's like, do you have anything else? So I've always been like, people first, but as vegan or as vegetarian as possible. And then my husband is just like, he's so good at making fish. And he was always really upset. He's like, why won't you let me make you fish? And he's pescatarian. And I was like, just gotta give into the lifestyle. It's so good. Oh, my God, it's so tasty. So I cannot claim vegetarianism anymore, but I lived that life for a very long time.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I gotta say, the closest I got to being a vegetarian was in middle school, when I was shown a pita video that scarred me about how chickens are raised in America.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  It's fucked.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  It's really fucked. It's really fucked up. But then my parents were getting concerned about my protein intake. And I wasn't cooking my own meals at that point. And they were like, you gotta eat some meat. So that is the closest I ever got to being meatless. But you and our friend of a friend both have stronger self-control than I do in terms of, you know, the meatless agenda. Our friend of a friend today is named Leah. And by the time today's story takes place, Leah has been a vegetarian for over a decade. Her boyfriend, Dev, is also a vegetarian. It is one of the things they had bonded over early in their relationship. Specifically, they had bonded over the pivotal role that Hayao Miyazaki's movie Princess Mononoke played in their vegetarian journey.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Huh.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Do you have any pivotal, like, veg texts?

• 9:29Speaker 03

  Honestly, it was when I met a cow. My friend, growing up, had a dairy farm. And I met a cow, and it had a personality, and it was so sweet, and it was nuzzling me. And I was just like, I can't eat this. I can't eat this. Which is ridiculous, because I still wear leather, which is deeply woven into the meat industry. Like, nothing is pure. But it just gave me the ick. I can't do it.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. I feel that. This Miyazaki point is somewhat important to our story.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Because at the time that our story takes place, Leah and Dev had recently had a lot of time to engage with Miyazaki's works, because Leah and Dev both worked in the service industry. And our story begins in mid-2020.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  When Leah and Dev both wind up among the thousands of people who got laid off due to COVID, luckily, they both have like a decent amount of savings, not enough to live in perpetuity in their expensive west coast town, but enough to cover their living expenses minus rent. This is how Leah and Dev end up doing one of those huge existential COVID pivots. About a month after they've both been laid off and they had made their way through the entirety of Miyazaki's filmography for the third time, Leah and Dev decide to do something crazy. Rent is their biggest suspense and they're like, what if we just eliminated that?

• 10:48Speaker 03

  What? This is like the thing that I hate about the play rent, where they're like, let's just not pay it.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, worked out kind of well for them.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  I know, I was like, I thought this would be my life in New York. It's like, nah. Yeah, cool. How?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Well, they're like, it'll give us some breathing room. So they break their lease.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  They pack everything they own into a storage unit and they commit to a life that basically kind of looks like a never ending road trip.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  Oh, so they're nomadic. Okay. I thought they've developed some.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  They go from place to place, watching people's pets and houses for money. And when they can't get paid house sitting gigs, they crash on a friend's couch or their camp, or honestly, sometimes they just sleep in their van. Does this lifestyle appeal to you at all?

• 11:34Speaker 03

  No, yes, not, not in the least.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Well, this nomadic lifestyle works out pretty well for Leah and Dev. Leah's family actually moved a lot when she was growing up, so it kind of feels natural to keep her stuff to a minimum and explore new places all the time. Meanwhile, Dev is more like me and had his life meticulously planned out from elementary school all the way up until he got his first job. But now, through the power of therapy and weed and like the impending suits of doom we all had in 2020, Dev is learning how to go with the flow.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  He's like, the world's ending.

• 12:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Might as well.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Might as well house sit, might as well cat sit. Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  To be clear, these two crazy kids do not have everything figured out. I would say they don't have the majority of things figured out. They do end up sleeping in some random church parking lots at various times in their life and they're woken up by like police officers tapping on their window because it's illegal to sleep in your car despite the fact that it's your property. I know, they have to bathe.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  Is that true?

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  That's horrible. I think about this a lot and how like you're not allowed to camp. I wish I lived in, in an America where sometimes I'd be like, I would like to sleep under the stars tonight. I'm going to sleep in the local park and you're not allowed, you're not allowed to camp, you're not allowed to sleep in your car.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  Crazy.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. These kids are camping without a permit. They're bathing in rivers on more than one occasion, but all of this feels like an adventure.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  For Leah and Dev.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  And they have the most important thing for people in their twenties, which is love. Would love be enough for you to put up with conditions like these in your twenties?

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Definitely. Honestly, if I had enough therapy and weed, I would love to live this way. I am like, I think I hate on this lifestyle because I envy it. Yeah. I wish I could do that.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Well, our story begins when one of Leah and Dev's house seating gigs in Colorado ends. Their next one in Oklahoma doesn't start for another three weeks, but Leah and Dev aren't worried about this at all because a few weeks ago, Leah had posted on Instagram asking if any of her friends in the Western United States had a couch for them to crash on. And she struck gold. One of Leah's best friends from college had responded, this friend is not important to the story, so she will not be named. What is important to know about this friend is that this friend's parents are rich and cool and artsy empty nesters with a beautiful home in Santa Fe and an equally gorgeous guest house.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Always nice to have friends like that.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Leah's friend explains that her parents, Tabitha and Silas, have been really lonely during the pandemic. So Leah would actually be doing her friend and Tabitha and Silas a huge favor by staying for a few weeks. Leah had actually stayed with Tabitha and Silas before the pandemic when her best friend had invited everyone to Santa Fe for a bachelorette weekend. So Leah knows firsthand not only how cool Tabitha and Silas are, like there are some conversations that Leah had with Tabitha that she still remembers fondly to this day. Leah also knows just how gorgeous Tabitha and Silas's guest house is. Like the main house is concrete and glass and Tabitha and Silas call it their cabin. I haven't seen Heated Rivalry, but I am told it's giving the cottage from Heated Rivalry.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Totally, totally. Well, that's how you know someone's really rich, where they're like, the cabin, the cottage, the shack. Like, yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Come to our little shanty town. It's nothing.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. Oh, this whole thing?

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Meanwhile, the guest house has a waterfall shower, a huge TV with a full sound system, and a California king sized bed. This seems like a pretty sweet deal to me. This is also normal gossip, which you are gesturing at. Any concerns so far?

• 15:05Speaker 03

  It's all too nice. It's like a gun in a checkoff play. It's, it's like, it's, it's all gonna go horribly awry. Yeah.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Well, Leah and Dev are driving through the mountains from Colorado to New Mexico when Leah gets a text from Tabitha. Hello, my dear, it begins. Unfortunately, I've just tested positive for COVID. I'm so sorry we won't be able to spend time together, but you and your beau are still more than welcome to come. I will stay in the guest house and you two can stay in the main house with Silas.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  So, you're Leah. How do you respond to this text, both emotionally and also like textually? Like, how do you respond?

• 15:44Speaker 03

  Well, first of all, just like, oh no, especially because it's like COVID in 2020. It's like.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Pre-vaccine.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  You're gonna die. Like, are we okay? Are you okay? How are you feeling? I don't think it would deter me from going, though. I think I'd probably, well, also because I'm like.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  A little bit homeless.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Also, it sounds pretty great.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, an important thing to know about Leah at this point in her life is that she is identifying as a recovering people pleaser.

• 16:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Like, the majority of the time Leah has broken her vegetarian diet over the past decade has been because a server accidentally gave her meat and Leah just refused to say anything.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  I mean, she's, you know, she's in the surface industry. She, she gets it.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  I'm the same way, quite frankly.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  Honestly, I would be like, and then they're just gonna throw it out. I should just eat it. And then it totally goes to waste.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  No, exactly. So Leah's not thrilled with this turn of events and neither is Dev, but they're also an hour away and they've been driving for like seven hours straight at this point.

• 16:42Speaker 03

  No.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  They don't have anywhere else to stay. So Leah responds like, oh no, I'm so sorry to hear that. Please let us know if there's anything we can do to help and thank you again for letting us stay. So about an hour later, Leah and Dev arrive at the cabin. Silas is already sitting on the huge wraparound porch, ready to greet them. If you have seen the show Succession, Silas gives like a member of the Pierce family, like the old money family that the Roy's hate. Yeah, he's wearing a bow tie and a sweater and a collared shirt despite the fact that it's 9 a.m. and already approaching 80 degrees because it's Santa Fe, New Mexico.

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Love it. Love it. That's how you greet your guests. Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Well, some other important things to know about Silas, he is a former philosophy professor and he comes from family money. These two things are perhaps related. I couldn't say. As is the fact that since he retired, Silas has taken to describing himself as an independent scholar.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Okay, okay.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  One of his books on the Roman Empire is actually ranked number 798.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Roman, I should have guessed Roman Empire. I was all on board until it was Roman Empire.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Silas is also a huge foodie. He's become even more so during the pandemic. Like if there is a way to experience an ingredient three ways in one course, sign that man the fuck up.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  That's great. Good for him.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  This probably helps explain what happens next. Leah and Dev greet Silas. They exchange elbow bumps because it's COVID. And it's as they're unloading the car that Silas spots a bag. This bag comes from an establishment that may or may not be known for its golden arches.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  That's all I will be saying. Silas sees the bag and says with what sounds like genuine dismay in his voice, you guys eat that stuff?

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I would be the Silas in this situation. I'm such an incorrigible snob. Um, road trip time. Like, that's what you eat on a road trip.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  I feel like this question would immediately like get my back up. Just somebody coming at me out of nowhere about what I'm eating. But how would you feel?

• 18:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a hard way to start the conversation.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  You eat that stuff? It depends on what the stuff is.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  These are vegetarians.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:59Speaker 03

  So.

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. And Leah is tired. She has not had a shower in like 36 hours. And as a person who was vegetarian before 2014, she's kind of used to people asking really invasive questions about her diet. So she's like, we don't eat it that often since we don't eat meat, but the egg sandwiches are my guilty pleasure. And then because she can tell Silas is not really impressed with this answer, she's like, they're actually better than pretty much anything else on the menu. They crack a real egg to make them. Silas is like, oh, you're vegetarian, but you eat eggs? And Leah's like, yeah, vegans are the ones who don't eat eggs.

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  So then Silas is like, do you eat fish? And Leah says, no. But then she's like, well, technically we do eat scallops. And Leah explains that since scallops are bivalves, they don't feel pain. And then just to like warm Silas up, Leah laughs and she's like, and they're also delicious.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  Cute. Yeah, I remember hearing that argument. I think oysters too. They're like basically vegetables. Yeah. I know a lot of vegetarians who eat those.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they are delicious.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  They, they are.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  I feel like heavy with the scallop.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  Tasty, tasty trafe.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Silas sort of like cocks his head at this and he's like, do you eat snails? And Leah's like, ew, no. Thankfully, at this point, Dev finishes unloading the car, thus saving Leah from the rest of this conversation. Silas gives them a tour of the main house, which is just as stunning as Leah remembers, but the last time she visited, she'd actually only seen the main living area because she was mostly in the guest house. So this time she gets to see the massive kitchen with this professional espresso machine and double induction burner.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  There's a gym in the basement with multiple barbells. The whole upstairs is taken up by Silas and Tabitha's bedroom and their offices, but the guest room on the first floor is a California king deck. The sliding door opens onto the back deck.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  Incredible.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  And the en suite bathroom is even more beautiful than the one in the guest house. There's a waterfall shower and a huge clawfoot tub beside a huge window looking out over the desert.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. I also feel like during the pandemic, I took a lot of baths. Like, that was to feel something. It was really vital to take a bath.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  And it was.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  That would have been amazing.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  I need to feel water on my body. Sensory deprivation.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Ah, touch. It feels amazing.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Human touch.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Leah fully gasped at the sight of this tub. She's like, oh my God, I can't wait to take a bath. And Silas kind of shakes his head. And he's like, actually, that reminds me. And he pulls a little white timer out of his pocket and hands it to Dev. And Silas is like, here's your shower timer. In case you haven't heard, New Mexico is going through a drought.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  Responsible.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  I hate how much I relate to Silas. This is so mortifying. I know what I'm supposed to think, but I'm like, good, responsible. At least this is the kind of rich person who's not like above, you know?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Doesn't think he can just do whatever, whatever he wants.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Exactly. Silas is like, we shower every other day and we run the water for no more than 10 minutes at a time. So you're a guest in someone else's home. Would you observe this rule?

• 22:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, I mean, when I lived in California, I really was like trying to think of ways. I would like shower with a bucket and then try to use that bucket to like flush the toilet. I was really trying to think of ways that I could like optimize water. I, I don't know, I respect it. I respect the project. Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Leah has no intention of following these rules.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  To Silas's face, Leah is like, yeah, totally. But as far as Leah is concerned, she's on vacation. And she's a recovering people pleaser. So technically not following these rules is actually great exposure therapy, if you think about it.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  I know, but sorry. Like, I'm like, that's a social. We live in a society and we live on a planet. I'm sorry. I was like, unrepentant people pleaser. I think people, I think we all have to please each other if we're gonna survive.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  But, okay Leah, you're on your journey. Okay.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Silas hands him his timer and then he's like, I'm gonna go get Tabitha some lunch in town. Do you guys want anything? And Leah and Dev are like, nope, see you later. And as soon as Silas pulls out the driveway, Leah lights some candles and fills that tub right up to the brim. As Leah settles in for a long soak, she's like, maybe staying in the main house with Silas for the next three weeks won't be so bad. And then Leah's phone buzzes. It's a text from Silas. He started a group chat with her and Dev. Without any sort of preamble, like not even a hi, Silas just drops the link in the chat. And Leah clicks the link, which leads to a website that says that the scrambled eggs made at the restaurant with the golden arches are not in fact cracked fresh.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Instead, they are made from liquid egg product, which is stored in bags.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Okay. Did I miss a memo? Is there supposed to be like an introduction to every text? I don't know. I just feel like it was a continuation of the conversation they were just having.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  You said, I'm feeling more and more akin with Silas.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  I hate it. I don't, I'm not proud. I just, I am him.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  I'd be like, I Googled what you said and it's not right. Like, that, that's me.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Say it loud and say it proud. We accept people of all stripes here.

• 24:18Speaker 03

  Oh, God. He's not doing anything wrong. He's, he's getting them, he's getting them a sandwich in town.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  This does fully kill Leah's bath-induced buzz. She calls Dev into the bathroom to vent. She's like, this doesn't even prove anything. I was talking about the egg sandwiches, not the scrambled eggs, which are different. And she makes Dev sit and watch her find an article that proves her point. And she's like, should I send this to him? And Dev is like, babe, it's our first day here. Maybe let's just leave it.

• 24:45Speaker 03

  I think that Silas enjoys the intellectual frisson and she should send it because he would be curious. He strikes me as a curious guy. And she should send it. But, okay, they decided not to. Yeah. If I were, well, if I were Leah, I would do a lot of things differently. I would have a little shallow tub, still light the candles, I'd still be very happy. And I would be like, huh, I didn't know that. Here's what I found.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  That's fair. Well, right at this moment, Leah gets a text from Tabitha. And it reads, welcome, my dear. I just woke up from a nap and I saw your car in the driveway. I'm so, so glad you're here. I told Silas to make sure he takes extra good care of you two. And then Tabitha is like, please forgive him if he's a little bit crotchety. It's been a while since we've had guests and he's been lonely. He's very excited you two are here. There are extra sheets and towels in the hall closet if you need them.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Oh, this is sweet. This makes sense.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  This does soften Leah's heart. And if there's a person Leah wants to please in this equation, it is definitely Tabitha. So Leah decides to forget the whole scrambled egg thing. She thumbs up reacts to the link that Silas sent.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  A violent act.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Who uses the thumbs up? I'm sorry.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Whenever anyone thumbs up instead of heart reacts, I'm like, oh, so you hate me?

• 26:01Speaker 03

  They hate me, exactly. This is like the most American thing about me. I'm like, you have to love it. If you like it.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  You hate me.

• 26:08Speaker 03

  You hate, yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  You hate me. Yeah. No, I really have to like adjust my reaction when someone thumbs up. Cause I'm like, it's, it's okay, Rachel. You're safe.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  As Silas, if I sent that link and she thumbed up it, I'd be like, I was so excited to have these guests and now they're gonna leave. I, I just think she had to be a little nicer.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  Okay, whatever, she gives a thumbs up.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  She gives a thumbs up. She finishes her bath. She and Dev put on House with Me castle and they fall asleep in the giant California king bed.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  Incredible.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  By the time they wake up, it's almost 6:00 PM. They're both starving. They decide to head into town for dinner. And Leah is worried that if they see Silas while they're leaving the house, he'll want to eat dinner together. And Leah is like, I'm not in the mood for that right now.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  To avoid this, she suggests that they, um, jump off the back deck and walk around the house to get to their van. And Dev is like, Leah, I think you might be being paranoid.

• 26:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's kind of.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Do you think Leah's being paranoid?

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Yes. That is new levels of antisocial. I'm sorry, if you forfeited your home and you're living off of other people. I, I in fact, I think the thing to do would be like, Silas, we are going to take you out. Thank you. You can't, I'm sorry, I don't relate to this at all.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  It's true. They're staying in this house for free. I forget about that part of the story.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's their first night. Like, I think other nights you can kind of avoid, but you gotta be like, thank you so much.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, Leah and Dev walk quietly down the hall towards the kitchen and the living room. The house is all dark. They're almost at the door, when a lamp suddenly clicks on over an armchair that holds none other than Silas.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  Iconic. An amazing entrance.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Kind of a cunty move.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Silas is like, did you read the article I sent you?

• 27:53Speaker 03

  So he's, he's a little spectrum-y, that's fine.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  He's just a little ghost-like.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  That's his love, that's his love language. He sends links. Some of us do that. That's okay. Okay. But she did read the article.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Leah is torn between people pleasing and wanting to correct Silas so badly. And Dev can tell. So he jumps in and is like, not yet, we actually just woke up from a nap. We're gonna get some food in town.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  Okay, I feel like it's not that complicated. I feel like you'd be like, I read it and it raised some interesting points. And.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  You're wrong.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  And it's a different sandwich we were talking about.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Sometimes I do feel like people avoid conflict so much that it simply makes them more complicated.

• 28:31Speaker 03

  Hundred percent. And also, as one who apologizes at the drop of a hat, I feel like it's, it's not that difficult to be wrong.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  It's not. It's not. This is enough to distract Silas, though. He brines immediately, he asks them what restaurant they're going to. While Leah was taking her bath earlier, Dev had found a brewery with really good cauliflower buffalo wings. So when he names this brewery, Silas is immediately like, no, that place is terrible. Everyone gets food poisoning there.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  And then he's like, I have an idea. Tabitha, I had a reservation tonight for dinner at the most amazing Chilean restaurant in town. It's got two Michelin stars. Obviously, we're not able to go, cause Tabitha has COVID. Would you like to take over our reservation? They have the most incredible rolls. They're called pan a masado. Now, I would take a Michelin star reservation from a friend's rich artsy parents, cause I love to drop a hundred dollars on dinner before buying a drink.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  What would you do if you were Leah and Dev, who are famously not flush in cash?

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I probably could not do that.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  I would probably just say, we're unemployed right now. We can't really do that.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. That sounds lovely. Well, Leah is actually very brave in this moment. A year ago, she would have just blown a hole in her savings to avoid saying no. But this time, she's like, that sounds really lovely, but unfortunately, we're on a bit of a budget right now. So we're gonna go to the brewery.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  Well said.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And to his credit, Silas takes this very gracefully. He's like, suit yourself. And they say goodbye. Leah and Dev escape. They have their cauliflower buffalo wings. They have a great time. They get back to the house. Everyone's asleep. They're like, wow, I'm so excited to sleep in the next morning.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  Oh no, did they get food poisoning?

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Well, just after 7:00 AM, Leah and Dev are both awoken by the sound of a voice echoing in their bedroom. Silas's voice, to be specific. Good morning, Silas says. I hope I'm not waking you.

• 30:22Speaker 03

  He's there in the room?

• 30:23Speaker 02

  They both like shoot up out of bed. They are terrified Silas is in the room. He's not. They don't see him. And for a moment, they're both like, are we sharing a hallucination? Did we get food poisoning? Yeah. Silas speaks again. He says, I made breakfast. I'm gonna take over some to Tabitha. There's plenty on the stove if you want some. And it's at this moment that Leah and Dev realize that Silas's voice is coming from a speaker embedded into the wall.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  I love it. It's his house.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Silas is like, I use farm fresh eggs from the farmer's market. So I hope you enjoyed breakfast.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  Great. There are worse ways to wake up, that's fine.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  That's true. There are definitely worse ways to wake up.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  So you would not like to be woken up that way?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I'm not a morning person at all. Everyone who works with me is aware of that. It is such a thing that close friends warn other people when they meet me in the morning. Cause they're a little bit like, you're meeting a different person. For a long time, I was like, oh, I'm really being a bitch. It's not even really that. There's just nothing going on.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Oh, so you're just like?

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Just blank faced, which compared, I think, to my normal demeanor is very jarring. Yeah. I'm just like, I have nothing to give. Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  My, my sister is a similar way. She's like, you cannot talk to her. It's not, it's not happening. So I have to imagine that Leah and Dev are a bit more like that. I'm like, what, eggs? Like, great.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. This is too early for me to enjoy anything. But Dev goes out to investigate. Once they hear the front.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  That sounds great.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  He does, right? He does. He goes out to investigate and once they hear the front door open and close, and he comes back with a tray loaded with coffee, fresh squeezed orange juice, and a huge, beautiful French omelet.

• 32:08Speaker 03

  Incredible.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Leah is like, okay, fine. It's fine. I'm fine. It's okay, I'm awake right now. As she endeavor eating, Tabitha texts them, good morning. Silas just told me he used the intercom on you. I'm so sorry. I keep telling him not to do that to guests. He says he won't do it again. I hope you have a lovely day.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Silas and Tabitha have such a funny relationship. It's like the John Mulaney bit about the subway platform announcements, where there's one voice that's like, stand clear, they're closing doors. And then there's a quieter voice, it's like, next stop is Canal Street. Like, you have both.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  You need, you need the, the tempering force. And Tabitha is the.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  I feel like those two people do end up married to each other very often.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  The two announcers, yes.

• 32:57Speaker 02

  You can't have too loud people. I have also seen that couple. Great wedding, phenomenal party.

• 33:02Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, I'm sure.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you think you could take three weeks of this? It sounds like you'd be down to hang out with Silas for a hot minute.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  I'm like, tell me all about ancient Rome. Let's go. I'm down as much as I love to people, please. I have no problem being like, I'm gonna go read. I gotta go take some time. Like, it's not that hard to carve out space for yourself. I don't know. I mean, granted, Leanne Dev might be a little sensitive because they haven't had their own space for a while now.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  That's true. That's true.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  I don't know. Could you handle this? Is this too much for you?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  No, I think as both a people pleaser and a rule follower, the 7:00 AM wake up call, it would take something out of me. I'm not gonna lie. But after the first time, where presumably he doesn't do that again, I'd just be like, eh, you know what? I kind of love talking to older people. They're really easy to please. If you're a person who looks young, who just smiles and is polite, they're a little bit like, you're so much better than every one of your generation. I'm not even joking. All the old people in my neighborhood love me.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  Oh, I bet. And that's the thing. I really don't mind if someone just talks about themselves as long as they're interesting. Then it's just like you get to watch the show.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 03

  That's fine.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Well, after their early morning wake up call, neither Leon nor Dev can fall back asleep. So they actually end up deciding to take a hike in the desert before it gets too hot. It's probably the highlight of the whole trip. And by the time they get back to Tabitha and Silas's house, it's mid afternoon. They're pulling up to the house. They see Silas sitting on the porch, just like he was when they arrived, bow tie and all. It is hot enough that he has shut his sweater.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  Cool. All right. He's a human.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  At the side of him, Leah is like, oh, God. And Dev just squeezes her hand. And he's like, it's okay. We'll just tell him we're tired and sweaty from the hike and we'll just keep walking.

• 34:44Speaker 03

  I love Dev. That, correct. Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  They walk up to Silas, who is totally engrossed in his phone, so engrossed that he barely greets them. He's just like, nice hike? And they're like, yeah, it was great. And he goes back to whatever he is like feverishly typing on his phone. He barely lifts his head to remind them to use a shower timer. What do you think Silas is up to? And more importantly, do you care?

• 35:07Speaker 03

  No, I don't care what he's up to, honestly. I mean, whatever. It's COVID. Our world is on our phone. Also, it's like, is she, she's upset that he's too in their business? And now she's insulted that he's not in their business at all? I'd be like, great.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Choose what you want.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Choose what you want. I'm gonna go play with my phone, too. I love to play with my phone. You play with your phone, I'll play with my phone. It's fine.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  I do love to play with my phone.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  I love to play with my phone.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Same.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Leah is not gonna lie, she's a little thrown off, but she's also not one to look a gift horse in the mouth. So she's like, I'll even use a shower timer, because Silas was so nice. Is this because Silas is in the house and would probably hear her draw a bath? Probably.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  Probably.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  It is as Leah is getting out of the shower that she receives the text.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Y'all, I must talk to you about my Lisa mattress. This is, I think, my favorite thing in my apartment besides my cat. I am just gonna be so real here. This mattress has changed my life. I got the Sapira Chill Hybrid. And it's not just that it stays cool, which is important for me because I sleep hot. It's that this mattress is so supportive that on days where I'm just in a lot of pain because of chronic illness, or I don't know, sitting for too long, or lifting a little bit too much at the gym, whatever aches and pains I go into my bed with, they melt away as I settle into my Lisa mattress. And it's not just me.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  My dad came to visit recently and he was like, my hip loves your mattress. Lisa, you have my heart. You have my family's heart. And Lisa has a lineup of beautifully crafted mattresses tailored to how you sleep. Each mattress is designed with specific sleep positions and field preferences in mind. Lisa has been awarded Best Hybrid and Best Memory Foam Mattresses by New York Times Wirecutter and is featured by West Elm as their go-to mattress partner. Go to lisa.com for 25% off select mattresses. Plus, get an extra $50 off with promo code Gossip, exclusive for my listeners.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  That is L-E-E-S-A dot com, promo code Gossip for 25% off select mattresses, plus an extra $50 off. Let them know we sent you in the survey after checkout. Lisa.com promo code Gossip. There is nothing I love more than roasting a whole chicken. It is so easy to do, much easier than you think it's gonna be. And then you have a whole chicken to make chicken salad with, or just to eat off of, like a caveman, or to offer little bits up to your cat. And the whole chicken that I love to roast comes from ButcherBox. ButcherBox's chicken is so high quality. ButcherBox delivers 100% grass-fed beef, organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more,

• 38:08Speaker 02

  all sorts of standards they can actually tell you about. They've already done their research and made the tough sourcing decisions. So all you have to do is decide what's for dinner. It's kind of like having the neighborhood butcher everyone wishes they still had, except it's delivered to your door. So I'll just have a whole chicken in the freezer and think, wow, that's dinner, lunch, for at least three to four days. I don't have to worry where it's coming from. Love it. If you're looking for an easier way to get great meals on the table, give ButcherBox a try. Go to butcherbox.com/gossip to get $20 off your first box, plus chicken breasts in every box for life, or filet, or New York strips for a year,

• 38:53Speaker 02

  with free shipping always. That is butcherbox.com/gossip. Again, that is butcherbox.com/gossip. Be sure to use our links. They know we sent you. I'm gonna admit something embarrassing. I know. Shocker. I have not had a bedside lamp for an undisclosed amount of months, long enough that I basically haven't read before bed for a really long time. And I only realized this because I'm hosting a friend and I was like, wow, they deserve to have a light by their bed at night. I don't. But this finally inspired me to find the perfect bedside lamp. And I had a vision in mind, Wayfair. They had exactly what I need, which is one of those library-style lights

• 39:36Speaker 02

  with like the green lampshade and little pull cord. I have been having this image in my mind of having one. And now I have one because of course Wayfair had it. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so you can host and celebrate without distress. When refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  You see, apparently, right after Leah had had that faithful conversation with Silas about vegetarianism and scallops, Silas decided to reach out to one of his friends, a professor of neuroscience. And this professor has helped Silas craft an extensive essay/diatribe about why Leah is wrong to think that scallops don't feel pain.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  This essay/diatribe includes an extensive list of citations, featuring everything from studies on the nervous system to philosophers. Silas is out here quoting extensively from Thomas Nagel's essay, What Does It Like to Be a Bat? He is citing Daniel Dennett on consciousness and the nature of pain. He's quoting Peter Singer on utilitarianism and the implications for animal rights. Like, Silas has effectively written a dissertation in the past 36 to 48 hours based off of a two-minute-long conversation.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  Incredible. Hey, I could never. That's amazing.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  And you're right. And you're right.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  I'm amazed.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Our friend of a friend actually sent a screen recording of her scrolling through this text. And the video is a full 25 seconds long, not to read the text.

• 41:24Speaker 03

  Just to scroll.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Through it. There are thousands of words.

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Oh, so all the words are in a text message?

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 41:31Speaker 03

  That is so weird. That's really weird. Yeah. I think I would be as insulted as I would be flattered. Like, really, both in equal measure. Be like, oh, my God, you really thought about what I said.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. First question, do you read this whole text? It is thousands of words.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  If I'm being honest, probably not. Definitely, yeah, not at first. Maybe after I calm down a little bit, I might consider it. But no, I'd be, that's so weird. Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Also, I just, reading a text that long? I doubt there are proper paragraph breaks.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  I'd be like, email it to me. This is not the format. Yeah.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Leah tries to just like scroll back to the top of the text just to get to the beginning of it, and even that takes too long. But poor, sweet Dev offers to read the text. Dev is like, if I'm wrong, I want to know. Like, I don't want to spread misinformation. And this is COVID, so there was a lot of scientific misinformation spreading.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  I love him.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  I know. We can't blame Dev for being sensitive.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, and curious.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Leah is like, you've got to be kidding me. But Dev is not kidding. So Leah decides to take her cortisol levels down by taking a bath.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  She's like, fuck that man and his shower timer. So 40 whole minutes later, Dev knocks on the bathroom door. And he's like, babe, none of this stuff actually proves that we're wrong.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  Ah, ooh. And he's smart.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  This guy rocks.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Dev tells her that all the philosophical stuff is just theories, which tends to be true with philosophy. And all the scientific articles that Silas cited are just like the jury's out. Like, there is no definitive evidence in this essay slash diatribe that scallops can feel pain. So, how would you proceed from here? You've been proven correct. You've also received a dissertation from a man down the hall.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  All right, well, I do feel like it means the jury's out. Like, in a weird way, it's kind of perfect. It's a stillmate. Like, no one knows if scallops feel pain. And so then it comes down to a matter of personal choice.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:42Speaker 03

  I don't know. I mean, if, that's such a pissy little move to text all of that. I'd like to imagine that I would engage him. But I don't want to get in an argument. I don't want to start...

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Yelling?

• 43:54Speaker 03

  Yelling, yeah. As you said, if you're a young enough person who just kind of like nods and smiles and acts interested, I think I'd be like, fascinating theories. Thank you so much. Like, very interesting.

• 44:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would be like, this is above my head. I took two philosophy courses, and that was in Paris, where I was doing more important things than doing the reading.

• 44:17Speaker 03

  You did?

• 44:17Speaker 02

  I did.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  Wait, cool. Were they in French?

• 44:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  No, I barely understood them in English.

• 44:25Speaker 03

  That's so chic. That's so cool. You studied philosophy in Paris.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  You know, I took a critical theory course. It was supposed to be on, like, media, and then it was about, yeah, Peter Singer. Um, but...

• 44:37Speaker 03

  Fascinating.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Unimportant.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  No, see, I feel like that's the perfect redirect for Silas to be like, ah, philosophy.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  No, it's like, wow.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  Wow, let's open this up and hmm.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Heidegger. I know that man. Yeah. Leah's fired the fuck up. She didn't...

• 44:54Speaker 03

  She's sensitive.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  And she honestly never really cared if they were right. But now that they are, she's ready for war. But she's not dumb. She recognizes that they're still in this man's house. So she sends what she considers to be a very measured response. Leah writes, "I'm not gonna get into the details, but just so you know, we also have other reasons that we maintain this dietary preference."

• 45:16Speaker 03

  Okay, I was gonna stop it right there. I think texting in the same home is like weird. I am not into texting. I feel like that is also an act of aggression. Texting in the same home?

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  Save it. You're there. I don't know. Unless, there is a reason to text Tabitha, who is infirmed, but this is... Okay.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:37Speaker 03

  I mean, that's a good response.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. I must admit, I do sometimes be texting in my own home. When I go home, I'm texting my little brother to be like, can you go to Chick-fil-A for me?

• 45:48Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, no, no. See, that's, that's practical.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  It's a practical little note.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  I think practical little notes are fine.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  But, but...

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Oh, full conversation?

• 45:57Speaker 03

  Full conversations?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  I don't have those over text anyway. I hate texting.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. Especially, oh my god, I mean, like, a couple of friends of mine who, like, argue over texts in the home. Like, Leah is like walking on the edge of that.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's true. Wow. Now, which dressed me out so profoundly.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  No, no, I feel, I feel like, you know, I'm going to town, do you want a sandwich?

• 46:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  That's, that's a fine text for the home. That's a note, that's fine.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Perfect, thank you.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Well, Silas texts back immediately, and he says, "Your other reason is that scallops are delicious, right?" At this point, Leah sees red. She's like, who does this man think he is?

• 46:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's annoying. It's like, let her have her choices, yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Would this be enough to make you leave?

• 46:39Speaker 03

  No. I don't think it'd make me leave, but I'd probably be like, sure, I don't know, man. Like, this is, I don't want to fight.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:46Speaker 03

  I would get this sometimes as a vegetarian, like, oh, well, you know, like, chickens are still mistreated for their eggs. Do you not care about that? Or, why do you wear leather? It's like, these are all great questions. I'm, I'm on my journey. I'm, I'm working towards it. I don't know.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  I'm a human.

• 47:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  None of our politics are entirely, you know, consistent. Leah is considering leaving. Like, the tub is great, but it's not worth it if she's just gonna have to keep fighting with this man. So she and Dev decide that if Silas does anything else, they'll find somewhere else to stay. And Tabitha sends a very apologetic text like an hour after this. She's like, "I'm so sorry about Silas. His people skills are a little bit rusty, and he just loves sharing his research. I sent him out to get us all dinner."

• 47:30Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, this is also such a rich person thing. Like, you know, like, rich people who are like, they can't...

• 47:35Speaker 02

  They can't help themselves?

• 47:36Speaker 03

  They can't, well, like, they like have a weird way of interacting with people. I feel like that's how I've found out people who are stealth wealthy. I'm like, oh, you like, you act kind of weird.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  It's like, oh, you're rich.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Hmm, interesting.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  I'm gonna be thinking about that now.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  Not, not all rich people, whatever. But it's like, but I, I think if he's, he's used to having sort of everyone at his beck and call and people telling him that he's right...

• 48:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:02Speaker 03

  And being the best and being right, he's not used to getting...

• 48:05Speaker 02

  And he was also a philosophy professor.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Right, he wants the discourse, he wants the argument, or he wants to be right. He's not into just being pleasant and getting along.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Or perhaps all three. The discourse, the argument, ultimately ending in him being right.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  That's, that's a dream.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  But, you know, a little while later, Leah and Dev get a text from Silas, and it says, "I apologize for sending you my research earlier today without asking first. I brought you dinner from the Chilean restaurant I mentioned the other day. It's in the kitchen."

• 48:30Speaker 03

  It's gonna be scallops. Oh my god, is it scallops?

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Well, she and Dev go to the kitchen, and Silas is there with boxes and boxes of delicious smelling food. There's bean stew, there's some of the rolls that Silas loves, the pan amasato. And in his little bow tie, Silas looks so innocent. So Leah takes a deep breath. She reminds herself that her friend had warned her that her parents were a little bit lonely. And as they're serving themselves food, Silas is even like, "I really do apologize." Tabitha tells me, "I need to try to talk these things out in person instead of texting."

• 49:05Speaker 02

  And Dev is like, "We understand, it's okay." And then Silas is like, "Tabitha says I've gotten out of practice talking to people with retirement and the pandemic." And Leah is like, "Yeah, me too, I guess."

• 49:16Speaker 03

  Sweet.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  And then Silas is like, "What do you think of the pan amasato?" And both Leah and Dev try the rolls. They're like warm and fresh, they taste amazing. And Silas is like, "Tasty, right?" And Dev is like, "Yeah." Silas is like, "What do you think, Leah?" And Leah's like, "Really good." And then Silas breaks out in a huge grin, and he's like, "Well, gotcha, they're made with lard. But since they're so delicious, it's fine for you to eat them, right?"

• 49:41Speaker 03

  That's horrible. That's really mean.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  What would you do here?

• 49:47Speaker 03

  I would have that reaction. I would just be like, why, why would you do that?

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  No one's denying that animal byproduct tastes good. That's like why, are you kidding? That's why people eat it. People don't like to just inflict pain on animals. It's like actively tricking someone...

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:05Speaker 03

  Into eating lard. That's really mean.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Leah is like, "That's it, we're leaving. We're getting out of here." She doesn't even look to see if Dev is following her.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  That would honestly make me leave. That's really...

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  That's really in bad faith. That's really mean.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  She like goes back to their room and starts packing up their stuff. Silas luckily does not follow them. But when they're bringing their stuff outside to the van, they find Silas sitting outside on the porch again. And it's at this moment that Leah is like, "I'm done. I'm gonna let this man have it." So while Dev loads up all their stuff in the van, Leah is like, "I'm not one of your students. I don't have to prove myself to you. It is none of your business what I chose to eat or what my reasons are. Tricking us into eating lard is fucked up. You clearly have some shit you need to work through."

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Good, good for Leah.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Leah thinks she did great up to this point. In fact, she told us that she wishes she left it there.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  Oh no. I know, that would have been so good. Oh no, no, no, no.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  But then she kept going.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  No.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  Leah says, "And all that stuff you sent along from your professor buddy didn't actually disprove our point about scallops."

• 51:11Speaker 03

  I think that's fair to bring up. You know, a little tossing.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Well, Silas ignores everything she said up until that last part. He is ready to roll up his sleeves and debate. He's like, "Actually, if you read Dennett's work on consciousness and sensation..." And at this moment, Leah realizes that Tabitha is out on the porch of the guesthouse across the driveway from them. And at first, she's just listening to all of this happening. But then she starts shouting, and her voice is like raspy and fucked up because she has COVID, but you can still hear her. And Tabitha is like, "Silas, she doesn't want to talk about the scallops. It's about her feelings. She wants to talk about how you made her feel." And Silas is like, "Exactly. Scallops have feelings." And Tabitha is like, "Silas, she wants you to apologize. You need to apologize."

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Silas finally stops talking for five long seconds, and everyone just kind of waits. And then Silas says, "I'm sorry you feel this way."

• 52:06Speaker 03

  Ah!

• 52:09Speaker 03

  No. Oh, my God. When did this become a thing that everyone thinks that counts as an apology? I'm sorry that you feel this way? That's the thing, and that's where I start to seem really unreasonable. Like, when people say it to me, I lose it. I get apoplectic. It's like this, this.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  It does nothing.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  You threw water on a grease fire.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 52:29Speaker 03

  Like, it does, it actually is insulting.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  I would rather you not apologize and say, I'm sorry you feel this way. Because the thing is, I'm not sorry I feel this way. I feel this way because you fucked up.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. It's, it's the opposite of an apology.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  It's not taking any personal responsibility. It's not practicing any empathy for how they might feel. It is like, oh, it's going to turn me into the Hulk. I really hate that. I hate that so much. Oh, I'm so glad you hate it, too. Everybody knows this now, right? Does everybody know this now?

• 53:02Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 53:02Speaker 03

  But people still say it. I feel like it's yet to be shamed in the way that it must be shamed.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  I feel like people, again, intellectually know it. But when they're in the heat of the moment and actually feeling the shame of having to apologize, it comes out of like, I'm sorry you feel this way. And it's a little bit like, I don't believe that, quite frankly. I think you're lying, and I don't care.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you're just trying to be like, okay, I'm ending, like, let's just end it. You're not, you're not taking a moment to imagine how they would feel.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, we're almost at the end of our story. Do you think there's any salvaging this situation?

• 53:36Speaker 03

  Driving away, leaving?

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  That is exactly what happens.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Leah and Dev get in their car and drive away. They find a campground to stay in, which turns out to be lovely, even if it isn't free. As they're pitching their tent for the night, they get a text from Tabitha, who writes, "I'm so sorry about my husband. Thanks for keeping the bedroom so clean. You left it better than you found it."

• 54:01Speaker 03

  Oh, we love Tabitha. And also, is she okay out there? Like, alone with Silas?

• 54:07Speaker 02

  It's true. And that is basically the end of our story.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  I do have some updates, but I have a few questions for you first. Who is the villain in this story? Remember, you were on Silas's side for a long minute.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  I was on Silas's side for a long time. And as arguments go, this is an entertaining argument.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  And I, as I was thinking about Tabitha and Silas's life, I'm like, I'm sure their arguments are very interesting.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  Which is really important.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  You know? It's not like, who did the dishes? It's like, do scallops feel pain?

• 54:37Speaker 02

  No, exactly.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  That's interesting.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  I was on Team Silas. Yeah, it's like a weird thing to do to, to your guests.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 03

  I mean, come on, who else could it be?

• 54:48Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  Covid.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  That's the real one. Covid's the villain here.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  If Tabitha had been there?

• 54:54Speaker 02

  No, it's true. That is a really, let's say, popular dynamic with couples where I'm like, as a couple, lovely, if I have to hang out with your husband by myself, we're gonna fight.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  It's gonna be a fight.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. No, the villain's Covid. The villain's Covid.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. And then, second question, would you tell your friend about this incident? The friend who's the child of Tabitha and Silas? And is the one who got you this, this free housing?

• 55:18Speaker 03

  I mean, they're gonna find out.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  I mean, would they, though? You just left early. Who knows if Silas is gonna be like, I willingly gave your vegetarian friend some lard.

• 55:27Speaker 03

  I think I'd start with a probing question. It's like, man, or I'd be like, man, your dad's a real character, you know?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's a good, that's, oh, I know you're good at gossiping. Yeah. Everyone's always like, how do you get good at gossiping? Ask a really specific, pointed question.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  But that's, that's like rounded and not too pointed. Just, huh, your dad, it's a real character. I still think there could have been a way to engage with him. And he, he's like a dog who wants to play. You gotta play with him the way he wants to play.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:57Speaker 03

  I think Dev should have gotten in the fray and been like, I read your essay, and like, these are the points. So like, yeah, the lard thing was too much, though. The lard thing was too much.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  That's fair. Well, the updates are Silas ended up adapting his text message to Leah and Dev into a long essay, which he self-published, titled "Vegetarianism: Hedonistic Calculus and Hypocrisy", and it currently ranks number 3,000 in Ethics and Morality. Leah and Dev ended up giving their van up for an apartment. They decided that hell is other people, and having your own place is actually a good thing.

• 56:28Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 56:30Speaker 02

  And our final update is a full year after this. Leah sees she has an Instagram message in her request. She is barely on Instagram and rarely checks the message requests from people she doesn't know. And this message is from someone whose username is Kant is King.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  She opens up this message, and she's like, oh, my God. There are so many messages in this chat. Many of them are about scallops, but there's one long message about how trauma is a buzzword.

• 57:00Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Leah had blocked Silas's number as soon as she left Santa Fe, so she goes ahead and blocks his Instagram account, too.

• 57:08Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  And that is the end of our story.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  Oh, no. That's wild. Fascinating.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  He just really fixed it. He was like a dog with a bone. He just.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Sometimes I do think that academia is keeping people away from us that it should be.

• 57:27Speaker 03

  It just corrals them off in their little ivory towers.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  It's like, sometimes you nerds do only need to be talking to each other. This is fun for you guys. For me, this feels like an attack.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. I mean, that's kind of fascinating if it wasn't so. But although the, the Instagram messages are proof that he was just gonna poke.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:47Speaker 03

  Honestly, we could really keep going into like horror movie IP.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, sometimes people send those stories, and I'm like, oh, I see how the horror movies happen.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  If more people were actually evil, instead of just weird, people would die.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at [email protected]. Or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip. You can follow me on all social media at HeyDanae. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at Defector Media to watch today's episode. Normal Gossip is written by me, Rachel Hampton, and Jay Tolviera. This podcast was produced by Sierra Spragley-Ritz and Jay Tolviera. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatzic. Emily Cherish is our video editor. Theme music composed by Rishi Kesh Hirway.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  The co-creators and dowager queens of Normal Gossip are Kelsey McKinney and Defector's supervising producer Alex Tujong Loughlin. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jaster Wang is Defector's business guy. Tom Ley is our editor in chief. This season was made in memory of Dan McQuaid, who ran our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Brandy Jensen, David Roth, Catherine Shu, Sabrina Embler, Chris Thompson, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Rado for your help with this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned, subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton. And remember, you didn't hear this from me.