A Different Kind of Finale ft Se’era Spragley Ricks

Rachelle and Se'era discuss what's been going on behind the scenes at Normal Gossip. We do a little gossip too, because we all deserve that. See you later this year for season 10! Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets! https://defector.com/normal-gossip-podcast You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch https://defectorstore.com/collections/normal-gossip or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com https://defector.com/products/normalgossip. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page:https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l7eXPsC1sgsOI9OBgPCw1R1vu6s_Ako4jm1-VFI1bhU/edit?usp=sharing. Follow the show on Instagram@normalgossip https://www.instagram.com/normalgossip/, and if you have gossip, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae https://www.instagram.com/heyydnae/?hl=en) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae https://www.instagram.com/seera_sharae/?hl=en) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira https://instagram.com/jaetowlevieira?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==). Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs https://www.instagram.com/alexlaughs/) is our Supervising Producer. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Normal Gossip is a proud member ofRadiotopia https://www.radiotopia.fm/. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

• 0:06Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast, we're gonna bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. And as some of you might have guessed from the title of today's episode, today's episode is gonna be a little bit different. I will not be telling a gossip story to a guest for reasons that I will be explaining in just a minute, but I know that a substantial amount of y'all will probably be tuning out right now. Hopefully, we will see you back here for season 10, which will be airing sometime over the summer of 2026, and which will feature some old favorites, some new and phenomenal guests,

• 0:47Speaker 00

  and as per usual, some unforgettable gossip. All right, here is where I get personal. I don't really think there is a non-dramatic way to tell this story, so thank you in advance for sticking around. The weekend after Christmas, I had to go to the ER because I was experiencing some symptoms of a stroke. Luckily, as you can maybe tell by the fact that I am recording now and not on like, medical leave, I did not have a stroke. But I do want to take a minute to talk about something I learned in the ER, which is the acronym BFAST. The letters stand for Balance, Eyes, Face, Arms, Speech, and Time to Get Help. Basically,

• 1:32Speaker 00

  if you notice symptoms in yourself or someone that include trouble with balance, blurred or double vision, drooping in the face or arm, and trouble with speech, then go to an ER immediately. Time is definitely the essence in the event of a stroke, which those are all symptoms of. What I ended up getting diagnosed with is something called Bell's palsy, which is inflammation of the facial nerve whose symptoms can mimic a stroke. Luckily, my case was fairly mild. I didn't really notice until I was brushing my teeth one night and realized that I couldn't spit properly, which was relatively minor, but also pretty scary. I couldn't taste on one half of my tongue for a while, which was

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Definitely the strangest symptom, but the one that has lasted the longest besides just like exhaustion is a little bit of vertigo because turns out the facial nerve connects to your inner ear and your girl is sensitive to motion sickness at the best of times. You can ask literally anyone who has driven in a car with me. Basically, since New Year's, I have not been able to read or write for longer than a couple of minutes without getting nauseous. Like this intro is the longest thing I've written since mid-December and I had to write it over two days. I'm already feeling leaps and bounds better than I was when I went to the ER. I'm back in the gym. I'm seeing a neurologist at the end of January. But the reason I'm giving y'all maybe a little

• 2:59Speaker 00

  bit too much information about my health is because there was a point when I got back from the mid-season break where I really, really thought I could just muscle through this and deliver the final episode of this season as promised. At this point, I think y'all might have gotten a little bit of an inkling that I am just a little bit of a perfectionist and that I hate disappointing people. Once the ER doctors confirmed I didn't have a stroke, what scared me the most was the thought of returning to work and not being able to perform, which spoiler alert, is exactly what happened. Luckily, and I keep saying that, but in the aftermath of all this, I actually do feel really lucky

• 3:43Speaker 00

  and grateful for my family and friends who took care of me, even though I am quite bad at being taken care of. And I feel extremely lucky to work with people who foreground my humanity because they helped me realize that going on like nothing happened, like the very basics of my job, reading and writing, didn't actively make me sick to my stomach, wasn't fair. It wasn't fair to me, which honestly, I don't really care about. What actually convinced me was realizing that no matter how hard I tried, whatever episode I delivered right now just would not be as good as I would want it to be. It would be fine. Like, I'm a professional.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  But I know y'all are smart enough to notice when the quality of the show isn't up to our usual standards. And it just didn't feel fair to me to pretend like everything was okay, even as it would be very clear to y'all that it wasn't. So instead of the usual episode, we are doing something a little different today, since I didn't want to leave y'all with nothing and quite frankly, because we have contract expectations to fulfill. Though I do want to shout out our partners at Radiotopia for their flexibility at a difficult time. So today, I have got a special guest with me here in the virtual studio, a guest that has been an absolute rock as we try to finish out this season under some extraordinary circumstances.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  That's right, I have somehow convinced my partner and friend and Normal Gossip's lead producer, Ciara Spragley-Ricks, to join me on mic today. Ciara, thank you so much for being here.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here to support my friend and chop it up with you today.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  I'm so happy you're here, not least because you're kind of always here. So it's nice that everyone else can hear you too, instead of you being the voice in my head.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  I like being the voice in your head, though.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  I like it too.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Today, Ciara and I are going to talk a little bit about what the past year has been like for us at the helm of Normal Gossip. I know this is a lot of people's comfort show, so I'm going to warn y'all that we will be talking about what it means for us as two Black women to be making this show under the second Trump administration. If today is your no news day, then feel free to skip to the second part of the episode, where Ciara and I will be reacting to some gossip morsels sent to us by y'all that neither one of us have heard. So, all of that after a short break.

• 6:33Speaker 00

  I'm gonna admit something embarrassing. I know, shocker. I have not had a bedside lamp for an undisclosed amount of months, long enough that I basically haven't read before bed for a really long time. And I only realized this because I'm hosting a friend and I was like, wow, they deserve to have a light by their bed at night. I don't. But this finally inspired me to find the perfect bedside lamp. And I had a vision in mind, Wayfair. They had exactly what I need, which is one of those library-style lights with like the green lampshade and little pull cord. I have been having this image in my mind of having one. And now I have one because of course Wayfair had it.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so you can host and celebrate without distress. When refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  We've been cooking up a fun, special holiday project for y'all over here at Normal Gossip. And usually when work gets crazy, I kind of just try to continue my life like nothing's happening. But recently, thanks to therapy, this time around, I was like, what if I did not try to pour from an empty cup? And that is what growing feels like. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, then I think you should check out today's sponsor, Growth Therapy. Growth Therapy is built for therapy that actually feels like care. You can find therapy based on what matters most to you, like insurance taken, mental health specialties, identity, or night and weekend availability if you're working a lot.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Book your first session in minutes and you can start in as little as two days. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on your insurance plan. Prepare for holiday glimmers instead of holiday stress. Visit growththerapy.com/gossip to get started today. That is growththerapy.com/gossip. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com. That's O D O O dot com.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  And we're back. Sierra, hello.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  So officially, we announced the transition in December of 2024. So to the audience, it has been about a year and some change. For us, it's been, I would say, about 16 to 18 months since we knew that this was going to happen. What has surprisingly been one of the more controversial parts of this transition is the way that we talk about it, which is with the phrase peaceful transition of power. I opened up a little bit in our episode with Jasper about why we keep saying that. Because I was honestly a little taken aback by how many people didn't understand why we kept harping on it.

• 10:18Speaker 00

  But I wanted to hear your thoughts as someone who understands podcasts and the industry far more than me about how transitions like this usually go, maybe some of your fears coming into it. And then I wanted to know how you feel like our peaceful transition of power has gone.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have witnessed these transitions happen frequently within our industry. And it does not happen like this. It doesn't happen as smoothly and as intentional as our transition did happen. I have friends in the industry that I'm really close with that took over shows that was hosted previously by someone who wasn't a person of color.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  And when they took over that, you know, the new host, who was either a black woman or a person of color, the audience's response was really harsh. And at the time, the second Trump administration hadn't, like, we were in election season. And then, when the announcement was made, he had already won. And he ran on rhetoric that was anti-D E I. And to be frank, I didn't want us to be seen as D E I hires.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  I didn't want our work and our resumes questioned in a way that made us feel that we weren't worthy enough to take over the show from Kelsey and Alex. I am very understanding that this was their baby, that built and cultivated the audience, and they gave incredible seasons. But they also chose us to be the ones to continue this new chapter. And I was really afraid that, in the climate that we were entering into this new chapter, that we would not be received well. And I think the transition has gone

• 12:42Speaker 01

  as well as it did is because everyone at Defector was very intentional about that not happening to us. And that meant the world to me.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. I mean, the reality is that a lot of people, the entire audience, formed a relationship with Kelsey and Alex. I think something, a word that is tossed around a lot is parasocial. But before...

• 13:12Speaker 00

  The advent of radio, which is relatively recent, if you think about it, the only voices that you heard were usually people you know. Like, having someone's voice in your ear is actually a pretty intimate form. So it makes sense that people formed a very strong connection to Kelsey. And I think we both knew when we came in as just fans of other projects that there was gonna be a section of the audience that was just gonna say, you know what, to me, the show is Kelsey and I'm done. And a lot of those people said, we wish you well. And I appreciate that so much.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  And that was entirely within, I think, the realm of expectations. But I think something that you just kind of highlighted is the fact that, I won't speak for you, though I'm sure you've had a similar experience, of maybe not being called, but definitely made to feel like an affirmative action hire. Yes. Or in college, for me, like I, an affirmative action, like admittance.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  And I think we both know, both intrinsically and also just sociologically, from a data standpoint, that what we've had to do to get here

• 14:48Speaker 00

  just entirely negates the idea of it being easier for us to be here because we're black, which is basically what affirmative action hire or like DEI hires getting at, is the idea that the standards are somehow lowered for us to get in, rather than the fact that for us to even get into the room, we've had to overcome things that our white peers couldn't even imagine.

• 15:20Speaker 00

  And so I think we both shared that fear. And I think that is a huge reason why we kept highlighting that this transition of power was peaceful. Because as you pointed out, so many of those transitions that happened that left black women or people of color just at the mercy of an audience were

• 15:48Speaker 00

  neglected.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Or

• 15:52Speaker 00

  just ignored or actively set up to fail by business partners or editorial partners that didn't care to see those black women succeed. And didn't understand that by placing a black woman in a position previously held by someone who wasn't a black woman, you have to proactively

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  manage the expectations of your audience. You have to tell them how to act.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  And a lot of media organizations don't want to do that. And something I have forever appreciate about Kelsey and Alex is that they both were like, our audience is going to follow our lead.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  And our lead is that we are very happy and this is something that we wanted to happen. And not only are we happy, these are the best people to take over the show. So I think we keep talking about the peaceful part because it's not just about us. It's about the people around us who have ensured that this transition of power was peaceful.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  One of the things that I think about and I remember, and I don't even know if I told Alex how that made me feel. But one of the first initial conversations that I had with her about coming on to the show and like, essentially taking over her position as the lead producer. I remember we were meeting, that was one of our very first conversations via Zoom. And she is going over the role and

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Talking with me about this position and I was like, hey, like, okay, so did you want me like, you know, you already see my resume and things, but like, do you want me to do an edit test? Do you need me to do this? Like, I'm naming just because, as you mentioned, Rachel, we are used to going above and beyond to prove our worth, that we can do the job, a role that is being presented or offered to us. And I remember Alex being like, Ciara, I've worked with you before, because she was a guest on I See Why Am I when you and I were both there. And she was like, I also have listened to countless episodes that you've produced.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  So an edit test is not going to show me anything different, because I already am familiar with your work and your work is good. And you should be proud of that and confident in that. And that carried on throughout our time, like, the transition. And, you know, she's still the supervising producer, so like, she'll, you know, give notes on different episodes and things of that nature. And she has affirmed my work and allowed me to feel confident enough to not second guess myself when making editorial decisions. And that I really appreciate. And that's how you be intentional and affirm Black women in the workplace.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  Right. I think something that we're both kind of pointing out is that our peers and our colleagues have matched our own proactivity.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Like, they are not necessarily waiting for something bad to happen before they put plans in place. Like, they are willing to think through worst case scenarios, which we have for almost everything that's happened this year. And luckily, they haven't happened. But just having those plans in place, I think, have made us feel a lot better. And something I want to point out is that they've also been humble enough to admit when they're wrong.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  I think a lot of white people, I think a lot of non-Black people are so afraid of being wrong that they end up not listening to the Black person in front of them. And

• 19:55Speaker 00

  No one is born knowing how to do this. Well and truly, the reality of being a human being is that you're gonna fuck up.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 20:02Speaker 00

  You don't come into this world knowing the boundaries of the people around you. And what matters is, A, not internalizing that fuck up as you being a bad person. Because that's not how fuck ups work. I fuck up. Doesn't mean that I should go kill myself, you know?

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, don't do that, Rachel.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. But also, being able to recover from those fuck ups and then carry on and continue to have a good relationship. And so, I have been very grateful for the environment that we've worked in over the past eighteen months. Even when it's hard.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Like, there's never been a moment where I have been like, what I'm experiencing here wouldn't be happening at another company, and worse, you know?

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  Um, I guess we've kind of been dancing around this, talking about this, sort of referencing this. But we are recording this episode towards the end of January, which means that for the past few weeks, we have all been trying to process the news and images coming out of Minneapolis, where people are being hunted and assaulted by masked agents of the state. The editor of our show, Justin Ellis, is from Minneapolis and is also a black man. Actually, at this point, the majority of the core production staff of Normal Gossip is black.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  And something I have struggled to contend with this year is making this show, which is intentionally entirely separate from the news, as the country descends into fascism.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yes. It's incredibly hard because we're human beings, right? Um, we have feelings, we have emotions, we have reactions. And we...

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Are somehow expected just as citizens in this country to operate as business as usual. So seeing these flood of images on our timeline, reading the news and like dealing with and contending with the country's descent into fascism, but also do our jobs. It's really hard um to try to divorce yourself from that reality because we're not supposed to, like we're human beings, right?

• 22:47Speaker 01

  However, I also think about um when we were on tour, and this was one of the many stops, I don't remember which stop it was. And I remember we were doing the meet and greet after the show. This woman came up to us and of course, like, you know, we took our pictures. And I remember her pulling us to the side and it was like, I love your show. I listen on my walks and when I take a break from work, I'm able to listen to it and like escape for a moment.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  And that is what is helping me because like all of us, we have something that we escape to, right? Maybe a TV show that we're binge watching. Rachel was just talking about traitors in one of our meetings recently. And we, Rachel and I, like texting on the side, watching his and hers on Netflix. And like, we all have something to try to escape to. Um, so when working on our show, I like go back to that woman's comment and I'm like, okay, we are creating that for her. And although my job isn't on the front lines fighting fascism

• 24:03Speaker 01

  or any of those things, I am providing a safe space and an escape for our listeners to be like, okay, I, because our listeners, they're smart, they're tuned into the news. They are on it. And this moment of rest that we give to our listeners, they're able to do that, refuel themselves and then go back and be engaged citizens. So.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  That's the way I look at our work as we're creating through this shit, this shitstorm. I'm like, I don't even know how to articulate fully what the fuck we're experiencing.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  No, it's impossible. It is impossible to articulate what is happening, not least because, quite frankly, we don't even fully know what is happening, and that is the point.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  No, we don't.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  My comfort escape content is Trixie Mattel videos. Like, I love Trixie Mattel. I, when I can't sleep, I just put on the I Like to Watch series with Katya and Trixie, where they react to Netflix shows. So I have seen almost every episode too many times, so that is my comfort content. And in one of her videos, Trixie was saying that she knew that a lot of people watch her content as a sort of reprieve and how she took that responsibility seriously. Because I think, especially, especially as we become more familiar with the terrible

• 25:35Speaker 00

  ways that Hollywood works, um, it's hard to really empathize with entertainers. But I think something I started struggling with pretty early on was trying to maintain

• 25:57Speaker 00

  the integrity of this space as it was built.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Which is as a reprieve and not necessarily as a timely show, not responding to the news cycle. I don't want to say that it's apolitical, because I don't think that it is. I don't think anything is apolitical. I definitely don't think gossip is apolitical. And quite honestly, if you listen to the show closely, you can definitely figure out our politics.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 00

  Um, so I don't want to say it's apolitical, but it's not engaging in the news cycle. And I wanted to maintain that, but what that meant for me as the person writing the show and scripting the show is I couldn't engage with the news cycle because it felt impossible for me to switch from reading about the genocide in Gaza to

• 26:58Speaker 00

  Writing a joke, quite frankly, it felt impossible to go from reading about federal employees being laid off from their dream jobs. And the ways that's going to impact everything from our food production to the weather service. To wanting to he he ha ha about. Oh, Euro trip gone wrong. And it made me feel like there's no way both of these things can matter. There is no world in which both of these things can matter, and that's not true. But I found that I couldn't care about the stakes in our stories.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Because everything around us had such high stakes and we intentionally choose gossip that is low stakes. And I was having a really hard time balancing that. And I remember going to Kelsey early on and being like, how did you do this? And she was like, well, we've never done the show in a Trump administration. And I can't say that that's not going to impact what's happening here. Because obviously, bad things happen under every president. And.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  You know, the Biden presidency had its issues, as most do.

• 28:17Speaker 00

  But the constant inundation of news that happens in the Trump administration is different. And that is intentional. And she was like, I've never made the show under those circumstances. But she said, you're gonna have to not be online when you're in production for the show. You have to pick a specific time to read the news, not every day. And that is, those are your news hours. And then you're not online because it is not. The human brain just cannot take in the amount of news we're seeing online in general. But having to take that in and then also kind of inhabit the world of normal gossip.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  Is just too much for one girl to handle. And. So that means that for a lot of the production, I'm not super online. And it's both great for my mental health and also makes me feel bad. Because I'll be in conversations with my friends and they'll be talking about these things that are happening. And I'm like, I haven't read the news in three days, which. Shouldn't actually be that much time. But right now, three days is a lot.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  It's a lot, babes.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  It's a lot. It's definitely a balance, I think, that I'm still finding. Between making this show and caring about

• 29:45Speaker 00

  the integrity of this show, because if I don't care about the stories, then why would you guys care about the stories? And why would the guests care about the stories? And so I have to care. It is my job to care about these stories. And so creating the conditions under which I, as a black woman, can care about these stories while the world is falling down around me is definitely something that I'm still finding.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  I think it's like

• 30:10Speaker 01

  indicative of our culture too. Specifically, a black culture. Even when we are under the worst of circumstances, we find a way to laugh.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  And, I mean, again, I it's been very hard for me since our last show to be like completely offline, because that was our job to be online. And I have changed the way in which I've interacted with the internet since then.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  But even online, as we speak, there's a trend going around, like, if I was an owl, how would you say who?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. The Jamaican who or the who from Baltimore.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  There's a Obama who, there's a Madea who, there's a lot of who's out there, okay?

• 31:08Speaker 01

  But it's in those moments that I'm reminded that like we are able to find something to just laugh about and just have fun. And so as I go into production of this show, as I go into editing, as we go into recordings, I'm reminded of my late grandmother, just, girl, you just gotta laugh.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  And we have to laugh to keep from crying at times. And just to provide laughter and joy to our listeners helps keep me going through these fairy.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Difficult to say the least, but deranged at times. And I'm happy to be a part of that for other people.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  That is actually a perfect transition into the last question I had for this little section, which I wanted to end on a slightly lighter note. Um, which is, I mean, besides the Baltimore owl,

• 32:10Speaker 00

  what is giving you hope right now? Because I think as Black women, both of us kind of have an understanding that hope is a practice.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  And that what our enemies want, because yes, they are our enemies. And I do not feel like we should be shy about saying that. What they want is for us to lose hope.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  And to give in to what's happening around us and to forget that other people are worth fighting for.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:43Speaker 00

  So what are you doing to remember that?

• 32:47Speaker 01

  I, I will say I'm encouraged by seeing others lean in and tap into community.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  That's exactly what I was gonna say. Yeah. What's happening in Minneapolis.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  I know. It's so, what's happening with ICE in Minneapolis is so like horrific, but the community response to it is truly like, it's giving me life.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  In, in the non-hyperbolic sense. You know, like it is actually giving me life in that people are fighting for their neighbors. And I think something that both of us maybe felt after spending so long covering the internet is that people have forgotten that there are other people on the side of the screen.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:34Speaker 00

  And seeing the way people in Minneapolis are rallying and creating, following around ICE cars and like honking, like the way people are showing up even as they're being terrorized is so brave and so just.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  It's beautiful to see.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  It is. It is.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  That, that gives me hope that. We hear this statement a lot that our country is so divided, and it is.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  It is. Like, don't be mistaken.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  But when was it not? When was it ever not?

• 34:08Speaker 01

  When was it not divided?

• 34:09Speaker 00

  The closest this country came to falling apart was about the country splitting in half over the question of, like, who is a human and who isn't?

• 34:18Speaker 01

  But to see people, as this country is, has been, who has always been, seeing people

• 34:26Speaker 01

  just rally for one another and comfort and support one another and like, oh, this is where ISIS today, y'all. Um, do you want me to go get your groceries? You want me to go do this for you? Like, that gives me hope. And it gives me hope that although there are people who may have thought differently in the past, um, and excuse this inhumane behavior, they are waking up, I, I guess, um, and they are realizing that the way in which they were moving before was detrimental to society, and they are taking the time to educate themselves

• 35:10Speaker 01

  and to become proactive in rectifying

• 35:16Speaker 01

  the harm that has been caused by their actions.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Um, yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  I, I'm seeing it more and more. I, I am hopeful that this will

• 35:29Speaker 01

  do what it has in New York.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Hell, yeah. That's my mayor. The first politician I've ever voted for. I, that's a lie. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2016, and I was happy about that. But other than that, every time I've cast my vote, I've been like, God, damn it.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  And I'm not even a New Yorker. My ass is in Virginia. But I was happy for that because I feel like there is something brewing, and I'm very, very hopeful that this sentiment spreads and we are able to make significant change and move away from this individualistic and capitalist society. That's my hope. Girl, that's all, that's all I got right now.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  I mean, that's huge. I was literally just thinking.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  It is a tragedy, the horrific things that have had to happen for this to become true.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  But I remember in, I'm gonna get the year wrong because time is a flat circle. But before, I think the 2020 election, there were many activists calling to abolish ICE.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  And so many of their fellow leftists, their fellow liberals said that's impossible. Like, don't say that, you're gonna lose us votes, like, we can't push that far. I remember when I was in college in 2016, we had a BDS campaign to get the school to divest from Israel. And that was so rancorous.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  I think it's hard for people who are maybe a Gen Z or like younger than the age of 25 to understand just how in lockstep the majority of America, the world, Western society was on Israel until very recently, despite the horrific crimes that were committed before the last few years.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  And the large public sentiment change against Israel, against ICE in the past few years, some terrible things have had to happen.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:40Speaker 00

  Like unimaginable tragedies have had to happen and they shouldn't have because people have been calling for this for years. But I just remember people saying that it would be an impossibility that we would ever get to a point where a large majority of people would support abolishing ICE or get to a point where a large majority of people support not sending billions of dollars of weapons to Israel while people freeze on the street in America, you know? And we've gotten there.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:09Speaker 00

  We have gotten there. And so I'm just thinking of the things that people say right now that are impossible, that will not seem impossible in a few years. Hopefully horrific things don't have to happen for those things to come into place. But I think that is what is giving me hope right now. Is I, I remember when people were getting literally laughed out of leftist circles for saying we should center abolishing ICE.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  And. That's not true anymore. And that's like a huge shift.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  It's a huge shift and it it gives me hope that like

• 38:50Speaker 01

  when my niece is older, this is not something that feels impossible to do, but is within like reach, like an election within reach, not so far off. And my hope is that nothing else horrendous happens.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  I'm not going to comment further on whether I believe that hope will come to fruition.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Listen, hope springs eternal, you know, gotta have some, gotta have some, some achievable goals and some reach goals, you know?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  Reach for the sky, plan to land among, I don't know what the rest of the stars, I don't fucking know.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Reach for the moon, land amongst the stars.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  There you go. Exactly. Period, babe.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  But yes, exactly, exactly. Um, I think we are landing on the same place, which I think happens so often you guys would not believe. Um, but also I think means that it is time for a short break.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  After which we will be back with some gossip morsels that neither Ciara or I have heard. Our incredible producer, Jay Tolbierra, has

• 40:02Speaker 00

  really kept it down over the past month. Like it is, it's been, it's been a struggle. So thank you, Jay.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Thank you. We love you.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  And thank you, Ciara. And thank you to all of y'all. And we'll be right back.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Support comes from Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send your money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way. Wise. You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  And we're back and we've got some gossip morsels. Are you ready, Ciara? This is your first time being in the audience seat.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hate it.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  You know, I'm too much a control freak for this shit. I want to know.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Listen, I get it. But also there's nothing better than being a little bit shocked, a little bit gagged, a little bit gooped, you know? So let's see it.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  Hello, this is Jasper, Defector's business guy. So I went to business school in the mid 2010s. Not to generalize too much, but many people at top MBA programs think of business school primarily as like networking opportunities or finishing school or even just an extended vacation from work. And from that mindset comes a really heavy emphasis on traveling. There is a subset of MBA students who are trying to travel internationally as often as possible. And there was someone I went to business school with, let's call him Michael, who seemed to be just jetting off somewhere new every other weekend. So the academic calendar for our school before Thanksgiving did have classes on Monday

• 42:43Speaker 03

  and Tuesday, but many people just skipped those days of class so they could do some extra travel before going home for Thanksgiving. Now, the Monday, that Monday, I went to school. Probably a quarter of my classmates were not there. That was not surprising at all. What was surprising was that during class, a detective with the local police department came in looking for Michael. Michael's parents had been trying to reach him for several days, but he was not picking up his phone. So they called the police, who went to Michael's apartment building and could not find him. So they sent a detective to school to ask around. And it did not take long for our classmates to realize what had happened, which is, Michael was in Cuba.

• 43:25Speaker 03

  So I went to business school in the exact couple of years where there was a thawing in US-Cuba relations. So it was easier to do tourism there, and a big group of our classmates planned a trip to Cuba. And 10 years ago, maybe still, you couldn't just show up to Cuba and expect your phone with your Verizon wireless plan to work. So people were basically off the grid for a week. And of course, this was well-known enough. So surely, most people just told their loved ones where they were going. Maybe they left a hotel landline number for emergencies. Except for Michael. Michael did not tell his parents he was going to be unreachable for a whole week. And we later found out the reason for that is, Michael had been traveling all over the world

• 44:10Speaker 03

  without ever telling his parents he was taking trips, because he was borrowing money from them to go back to grad school. And he didn't want them to think he was being frivolous with his time and their money, which, no comment from me. So this started a long game of telephone, literal telephone, because Michael's parents insisted on getting in touch with Michael to confirm that he was safe, and presumably yell at him a lot. So lots of people had to mobilize to try to get in touch with, like, the parents or siblings of other people who had gone on this trip to Cuba, but who had the itinerary and knew how to call the hotel. So this all ended up being a tough look for a, I don't know,

• 44:50Speaker 03

  like a 28-year-old man who considered himself a very cosmopolitan person of the world, right? But his friend's parents had to be contacted so that his own parents could yell at him. And it all, it all ended up being fine. Michael was safe. I would say he did travel noticeably less for the remaining time in school. So I think if there's anyone listening who's applying to get an MBA right now, just remember this story, and if you end up in a similar situation, just tell your parents you're going on a fucking camping trip nearby, right? There can be other reasons why you wouldn't answer your phone. Just get ahead of it.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  So true. It is just like Jasper to give actionable advice at the end of his gossip story. Um, I need to start from the beginning, which is realizing that people go to grad school for vacation? I'm sorry.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Listen, that's another tax bracket that I have not touched.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  No, literally, I am, what do you mean you go to grad school and you spend, how do you, where are you getting the money to travel internationally? This happened, I, oh God, I hate saying this because it's the most pretentious sentence in the world. I studied abroad in Paris when I was in college.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Ooh, we be.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  I loved it. Okay, Paris is incredible, sue me. But so many of my classmates would travel, and again, traveling in Europe is different.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  It's very different.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  From America to Europe, traveling in Europe is so cheap. Um, not cheap enough that me at 19 was traveling every weekend the way some of my classmates were. Also, I was like, we're in Paris. We have four months in Paris.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Like, why are you going to Germany every weekend? Like, you're not getting it's fucking Burgheim, like, or however the fuck you pronounce it. Uh, so that's A. Um, B, it is so funny to consider yourself a man of the world and then have your parents be calling every single person you know, blowing up your spot, because this is exactly what my parents would do. And I know that. I know that. Your mom too. Your mom would be calling.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  The way that I was thinking through this, if I was on the phone with the cops or friends, I'd be like, can y'all, can I just stay with y'all for like a hot minute?

• 47:09Speaker 00

  No, literally. No, I'm like, if my mom had to go to the limits of having, not only to like have the police come up to my school, um, I would be like, actually, I'm gonna need a police escort back home. And again, ACAB, but I'm gonna need a police escort back to the United States because my mother's gonna murder me when she sees I'm alive.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I need you to stay for a considerable amount of time because I, like, she, she'd be glad, don't get me wrong, she'd be glad that I'm safe.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  No, exactly.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  But then she'd be like, and you couldn't let me know? Like, no, I don't need that type of smoke in my life, so.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  No, literally. My mother made me watch Taken before I studied abroad in Paris. Just to let you know, the kind of woman my mother is, I love her and I'm perning into her, but she made me watch Taken before I went to Paris. And I was like, what? What are you, this is not a documentary.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  It would have been like the drama man.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Anyway, so that, uh, Michael, that's crazy. All of this mess is preventable in a way that is so 28-year-old boy-coated. It's like they get a little bit close to 30 and they're like, I've got it all figured out. And it's like, you're... Dumb.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  He's like, look, I'm grown grown. I get to go on a strip.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  Exactly. Are my parents paying my way? Yes. Like, I don't want them to think I am being irresponsible.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  No, but you are.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Well, and then he disappeared in Cuba. Like, you don't want your parents to think you were, okay, this is the male brain. I don't want my parents to think that I'm being irresponsible with their money. So I'm gonna go to Cuba and not tell them so that they have to send a police escort and spend how many man hours to track me down, which probably costs money. Definitely time, and time is money. Should they teach you that in your MBA program?

• 49:12Speaker 01

  At least make it sound like that you're going on their assignment.

• 49:16Speaker 00

  No, exactly.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  You know, some real world experience in the business realm, doing international business relations. Something I do.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  In the business realm?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  I'm gonna need you to think it through, okay babe?

• 49:33Speaker 00

  Use some of that education to figure out your parents, manage your parents.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  I love this. I thought this was gonna go a different way when Jasper was like, many people use an MBA program as a vacation. I was gonna say, many people use the MBA program to find a husband. That's what I know about MBA programs.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  But that's a different gossip story. What's the next morsel?

• 50:01Speaker 04

  Hi. Okay, so when I was around, I must have been age

• 50:09Speaker 04

  seven or eight, my dad took me to the local, you know, everything store. And I really wanted to go to the toy section. And I kept pulling my dad's arm. And he said, you know, if you keep pulling my arm, you're gonna pull it right off. And I did, I pulled my dad's arm off and I lost my shit. I started sobbing, I, I lied down the floor, you know, I was inconsolable. And I remember thinking, I've ruined my dad's life. I have pulled my dad's arm off, like I've forever altered his timeline.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  Um, come to find out, he was wearing a, one of those Halloween arms that people put out their trunks. Yeah, he had one stuffed up his sleeve. So kind of a treasured memory. Okay. Bye bye.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  I'm crying. Oh my God. Okay. I just want to shout out to our caller for like their remarkable level of like emotional stability. Because the way they told this story of just like, this is a treasured family memory. I was crying. I thought I ruined my dad's life. This would be like a, a, my villain origin. Like this would be the moment in my life where I turned evil.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  So I don't trust anyone.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  No, my trust issues after this would be crazy. Like I, can you imagine being in the everything store, looking at the toy section and then your dad's arm?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  See, this is what I would imagine, because you know, the running joke on social media is like millennials are the new adults. So this is something I would imagine us doing, right?

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, something scarring and traumatic. Yeah, this would definitely end up in a TikTok right now. Um, that is, your dad is diabolical and also funny. And I want to hear, this can't have been the only, this can't have been the only prank you pulled like this over the course of your life. I need to know more.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Can dad like send a voice note? Can dad send a voice note and tell this from his perspective? Because I'm so.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  Also, I just wanna, I guess maybe, did he figure this prank out in the store?

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  He, did he plan this when he went in?

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Or were you like, you always tugging on him a little too much? Not trying to, not trying to make you, you as the victim, the villain.

• 53:04Speaker 00

  You're a seven, eight year old, you should be pulling on your parents arm. It means you're staying close to them, like, good job, seven, eight year old you.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  But like, when, when did this idea enter your dad's head?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Was he trying to teach you boundaries? Like, I need to understand dad.

• 53:17Speaker 00

  Also, did he take you to get ice cream afterwards? Cause I feel like you deserved that.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Ice cream, like, I deserve ice cream days, alright? A month of ice cream, because like, I thought I like ruined my dad's life, like.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  Your dad's a hoot and a holler, um.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  No, but really, can you please call her? Can you just have your dad record a voicemail? Like, see, this is, I can't be in the audience, like, power to our audience, because I'm like, no. I need updates.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  And you're so right. Y'all are so brave for not knowing the whole story sometimes. I really do appreciate that.

• 53:55Speaker 00

  Okay, last gossip.

• 53:58Speaker 05

  Let's journey back to the year of our Lord, 2012.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 54:04Speaker 05

  There's no Tinder, there's no Hinge. My coworker's like, you gotta get out there. She takes it upon herself to create me a Plenty of Fish profile, which, if you're old, you know, you know. And I read the profile and it's a thousand percent not myself. It says things like, I like to hike and go to the gym and I eat healthy. None of these things are true. So, I'm finally like, there's, if there's gonna be a profile circulating with a picture on it, I might as well, like, make it myself. I don't take any of this seriously, so I'm just like free typing on the thing like a crazy person. And I'm like, if they don't like it, then they don't like me. And if they don't, then they don't. Fast forward, I go on three terrible dates.

• 54:47Speaker 05

  All of which could be like their own separate movie. And I'm like, they're all serial killers. I will never go on another date from this godforsaken thing again. I'm gonna delete this shit. But there was one guy I had messaged and I thought he was like really hot and I was like. Let me just see if he had messaged me back by any chance. Well, he had messaged me that morning and was like, so sorry, I was on tour with my band, but I would love to meet up and like, talk. So I message him and I'm like, this has been crazy, I'm gonna delete this, but if you wanna talk, like, here's my number text. He texts me back. So we make plans to meet up at a Starbucks, as you do, and we go on our first date.

• 55:29Speaker 05

  And he's amazing, and I'm in love with him, and we go on a second date, and I'm in actual love with him, and it's amazing, like, not actual love, but you know what I mean. So we start hanging out, and I go to his apartment, and for a guy, it is the cleanest apartment I've ever been in. He lives with his dad. So we're dating for a while, and I'm finally going to sleep over, and you know, wink wink. So I sleep over and everything, and he's great, and I fall asleep thinking this was like, the best night, and I wake up in the morning, and something is amiss. I got my period a week early in this man's bed on the lightest color of sheets, white possible.

• 56:13Speaker 05

  I need to die, I need to move to another country, I need to fake my death, change my name, I need to die. I panic, I refuse to move. He wakes up, and he's like, oh my god, you're amazing, everything is amazing, you're perfect, la la la la. And I am still dying and not moving. And at this time in history, those like reddish purplish vitamin waters are everywhere, and everyone's drinking them, they're like the iPhone of drinks, like, everybody has them. And I don't know the flavor, I think it was like dragon fruit or something. And I'm formulating a plan. I tell him that I'm feeling a little hungover, can you please get me the vitamin water? And he does, and he's like handing it to me, the vitamin water, and he stops, and he's like,

• 56:56Speaker 05

  I don't really eat or drink in my room, so like, please don't spill it. I'm like, motherfucker, he's gonna hate me, but I have no options, this is it. Luckily, as he's handing me the drink, he's like, there's a really great breakfast place across the street, and I'm gonna get these breakfast sandwiches when I'm hungover, and I'm gonna go get us some because there's nothing to eat here anyway, and maybe if you eat, you'll like, feel better. And I'm like, oh my god, thank you so much, I'm just gonna lay here and sip on this vitamin water, like, very carefully while you're gone. The minute, the millisecond that door closes, I take that vitamin water and I dump it

• 57:37Speaker 05

  all over the bed and the sheets. And I feel like it's important to note that his dad was away, obviously, because like I would never hook up with him in the apartment while his dad was there, by the way. Anyway, I go to the bathroom, I fix myself, I scrub the entire bed, I fix the laundry room, I scrub the sheets, I put the laundry up in record speed before this man comes back, he walks into his room and I'm crying. Not because I'm a great actress, but because I feel terrible. He looks like, oh my god, what happened? And I was like, I'm so sorry. I know you told me to be careful and I really didn't feel well and I thought I was gonna throw up and I spilled the vitamin water everywhere and I feel so bad about it. And I scrubbed the sheets and they are in the wash

• 58:18Speaker 05

  right now and I'm so sorry. I didn't want to go through all your stuff. Um, so I didn't look to see if you had any more sheets to remake the bed, but if you do, I will totally remake the bed and I am so sorry and I'm leaving. And he's like really pissed and unhappy and he's like holding it together, you could tell. And he's like, it's alright, accidents happen. You didn't feel good. That was so nice. You didn't have to wash the sheets. I would have done it. So then I tried to joke around. I'm like, we needed to wash the sheets anyway, am I right? Um, I distract him and I'm really apologetic and I don't leave. And we eat our egg sandwiches and I'm really guilty, but we fast forward to the next year. We move in together. Six months later, we get a dog. In

• 59:02Speaker 05

  2015, we get engaged. In 2017, we get married. Now it's 2020 and it's COVID and we're looking at houses, but it's 2020 and it's COVID, so we don't get a house till 2023. At which point, I'm pregnant with our first order and in May, I go in for my induction and it takes forever because the baby's overdue and she's not coming. And we're really bored. So I'm like, is there anything you never told me like this whole time that we've been together? You were like afraid to tell me or a funny story or something like you lied about. And he, he's like, no, not really. You know, I'm sure I just liked the normal things. Like I didn't like your haircut or I told you I did or something. So.

• 59:41Speaker 05

  I tell him the story and I'm like, I never told you this. And it's really funny, actually. And I tell him the whole story and he looks at me and he's like, I knew something. I knew it. He's like, this asshole. I told her not to spill the drink and I was nice about it. And he's like, why would you just have never told me this whole time? And I was like, I don't know. Just like in the beginning, I thought you were gonna like break up with me or something. And I was embarrassed and then just spiraled and I just like never told you. And he's like, I am a mature adult male. If you can have sex with somebody, you can deal with the fact that they have a period. And if guys can't be immature enough to deal with a period, then they shouldn't be sleeping with women.

• 1:00:23Speaker 05

  And he couldn't be mad anymore because I pushed out our baby. And now it's 2025 and we just had our second daughter. So people of the world, lie.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:36Speaker 05

  Lie with everything you have and you just might get a happy ending.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  Okay, I'm not gonna lie. I, I was like, there's no way this can be true because literally at the beginning of the voicemail, I heard baby in the background. And I was like, oh my God, baby in the background. That's so cute. I keep saying this on the subscriber episodes, but I literally love when you guys send us voice memos and I can hear what's going on in the background. It makes me feel like I'm like right in the room with you. No, exactly. I'm like, I'll hear the little turn signal come on and I'm like, that's right. You signaled. Pop off, girl. So I heard, I heard the baby. And I was like, wouldn't it be so crazy if like this guy that she's talking about is the father of her child? And I'm like, well, that can't happen because that would be too good. And it was true.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Let me tell you, Plenty of Fish, this is the second success story that I know of from Plenty of Fish. And I can't go too much in detail because.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Friend of a friend situation, but

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  They are married and have a child too.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  Oh my god. Okay, I think, I will say, I think Plenty of Fish in 2012, as with most dating apps, is different from Plenty of Fish in 2026. But also, I've been on a dating app, uh, what's the opposite of a binge? Fast.

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  For, I think, a year at this point. Never felt better, let me tell you. Uh, so I don't know what any of the apps look like right now. And that feels so good for my brain, but I'm so happy for you, girl. You found your man on Plenty of Fish. Um, I love how quickly you thought. I love how quickly the listener thought, um, okay, I need a red vitamin water.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Okay, and it was, I know which one it was. It was a blueberry pomegranate. Because I love the blueberry pomegranate. I used to, I mean, I fucked with the dragon fruit too. And it doesn't really have a taste to it, but that blueberry pomegranate looked like it could be blood. Because I know, because I spilled that shit on my, like, white dress one time and I was mad. So I wish you said it. I was like, I know which one you're talking about, babe.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Oh my god. Okay, wow. Again, such quick thinking on the caller's part. I do have a question, which is, did it not get into the mattress?

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I was thinking the same thing. Unless it was just like she caught it in time.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, or maybe there was a mattress protector?

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  Maybe she's one of God's favorite and is a light flow girl.

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  I don't know that.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  We're really getting personal on this podcast today.

• 1:03:16Speaker 00

  Let's move on. I was like, wait a minute, I forgot we were just on the phone. Okay.

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  Okay, okay. So you get your little vitamin water, you spill it, you put it in the wash. Um, I'm not gonna lie, when you said that he was very obviously pissed, I was a little bit just like, fuck this man. But then I remember that, like, people are allowed to have emotions. And I would also maybe be pissed if I told someone to be careful in my white sheets and then they spilled it all over. And importantly, he looked pissed, but then said, it's okay.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  Which is-

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  I think the important part of the story.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  Um.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:55Speaker 00

  The important, the turning point where I was like, I'm on this man's side.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  That emotional regulation happening.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Exactly. I was on his side when he got the vitamin water and then said, I'm gonna go get us some breakfast sandwiches.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  Um, I love this story so much. I love that the caller's, um, takeaway from this is to lie. Yeah. I love also that you started a little bit of drama while you were getting induced for your baby, which like is the point at which I don't think a man can ever say anything to you that is not like, you're so great. I, I never, literally never want to be pregnant. Um, but I do think it's really funny to use that opportunity to be like, I'm about to do something that you physically cannot and that you know is gonna suck and that.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  You can't be mad at me.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  You can't be mad at me. So what, have you hidden anything from me? And she probably knows this man well enough to know that he doesn't. And then she's like, okay, well, I have the story for you.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  She's like, let me just create some chaos.

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  No, exactly. She was like, I'm bored. Not enough is happening.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  The contractions haven't really settled in yet, so let me just tell you.

• 1:05:07Speaker 00

  And then she said, all right, time to pop out the baby. Like, I wonder if he even remembers that she told him the story. Cause like, I don't know how much I would remember the conversations I had after, like, my baby got popped out, you know?

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Honestly, she's the real MVP.

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  I love her. No, literally, I think I said this halfway through the voice memo. I was like, I fucked heavy with this girl. Like, she's an icon. She's a vibe. I love it. I'm obsessed.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  So from the morsels today, we have learned to let people know that

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  you are going somewhere just in case. You know, you don't want police teams to come searching for you to respect and honor people's boundaries. Um, so that way they don't have to teach you a very diabolical lesson and to lie.

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  Wow. Um, those are definitely the main lessons that we need to take from today. Sierra, thank you so much for coming on mic with me. Like, I know it is not necessarily your favorite thing, but you're so great at it. And it's so fun having you here. And if any of y'all say anything but nice things to my girl, I'm gonna come to your home.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Rachel, no.

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  And I'm gonna throw away one of every pair of your socks. So you only have Mitch Mott socks for the rest of your life.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Okay, you know what? This is time to rap.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  We gotta rap this up. You can't be threatening them. We just said we gonna bring them both. And now you're trying to bring destruction? Like, no, we gotta rap this up, babe.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  I said if they say anything, they can, they can, it's mutually assured destruction. All right? Don't say anything mean. You can have your socks. All right? All right. That's it. Bye, y'all.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at [email protected], or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at NormalGossip. You can follow me on all social media at HeyDnA, H-E-Y-Y-D-N-A-E. This podcast was produced by Sierra Spragley-Ritz and Jay Tolbierra. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatzit. The co-creators and dowager queens of Normal Gossip are Kelsey McKinney and Defector's supervising producer, Alex Hujan-Loughlin. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defector's business guys. Tom Lay is our editor in chief. Dan McCleid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Brandy Jensen, David Raw, Catherine Chu, Serena Imbler, Chris Thompson. Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Rado for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and remember, you didn't hear this from me. Radiotopia.

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  From PRX.