Legally Binding Meddling with Jasper Wang

Defector's own Jasper Wang joins us to explore what happens when the people selling you their house have a few extra conditions. Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets! https://defector.com/normal-gossip-podcast You can support Normal Gossip directly by buying merch https://defectorstore.com/collections/normal-gossip or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend at supportnormalgossip.com https://defector.com/products/normalgossip. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page:https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mFB2pqvZvTmbU0WuQjYWLpABqfyjGvjaauMXwW0_Z54/edit?usp=sharing. Follow the show on Instagram@normalgossip https://www.instagram.com/normalgossip/, and if you have gossip, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae https://www.instagram.com/heyydnae/?hl=en) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae https://www.instagram.com/seera_sharae/?hl=en) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira https://instagram.com/jaetowlevieira?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==). Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs https://www.instagram.com/alexlaughs/) is our Supervising Producer. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Normal Gossip is a proud member ofRadiotopia https://www.radiotopia.fm/. Support Radiotopia's fall fundraiser here http://radiotopia.fm/donate. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

• 0:06Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast, we're gonna bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I'm gonna remind y'all that the Normal Gossip team has got a little break coming up. We will not be publishing during the weeks of Christmas and New Year, but have no fear, we will be back in your feeds with fresh gossip within the first full week of 2026. So, our last episode for this year, not this season, but this year, is on December 17th, and then we come back on January 7th. Alright, that is all the housekeeping for today. Now, time for the gossip. For those of you who don't skip this part, thank you

• 0:49Speaker 00

  so much. Shout out to y'all. But you've definitely heard me or Normal Gossip's co-founders, Kelsey McKinney and Alex SuJong Laughlin, talk about the company that we all co-own, Defector. There are so many reasons why Normal Gossip would not be possible without Defector, but I want to talk about something specific that I haven't really spoken about publicly, which is how scared I was to take over this show as a Black woman. We have been talking for basically a whole year at this point about our peaceful transition of power from Kelsey's hands into mine. And yes, we will continue to use that phrase, because if you have spent any time in the audio world, or like, the real world in general, you're aware

• 1:30Speaker 00

  that transitions of power aren't always peaceful. Those transitions tend to be even dicier when you introduce a Black woman into the mix. Hello, hi, it's me. Like most podcasts, we have some insight into our audience demographic data, which means that I was pretty aware when I took over that the majority of Normal Gossip's audience is white. And I'm gonna be so honest here and say that as a Black woman, that scare the living shit out of me. Most of my Black listeners out there will have heard the phrase "twice hard for half as much," which refers to the fact that as Black people in America, we have to work twice as hard to give half as much as our white peers. What that phrase doesn't quite capture is that even when you do work twice as hard, even when your work is just as good

• 2:13Speaker 00

  as your white peers, half the white people who interact with it are gonna find a problem with it, because you, as a Black person, dared to do it. I'm not even gonna talk about the psychic damage of that. That's from my therapist. Instead, I want to talk about the fact that most media companies, especially in an anti DEI era, in the middle of an anti-woke backlash, have zero clue how to tune out the racist noise and instead make it the problem of the black person that they hired. When I say that Defector is one of, if not the only, media company that I would be willing to put myself into this position for, I mean it. And not a small part of that comes down to today's guest, Defector's VP of Revenue and Operations, Jasper Wang.

• 2:56Speaker 00

  Around Defector, we just called Jasper our business guy, but even before I joined Defector, I knew he was so much more than that. In a lot of ways, Jasper is the glue that holds our small, little company together. And that is because at the end of the day, he understands that the people make the company and that for those people to do their jobs, they need to feel supported. It is pretty rare as a black woman to encounter someone, let alone a business guy, who doesn't question my instincts. And from the moment I joined Defector, I knew Jasper was in my corner. I think the whole Normal Gossip team would agree that he has been a huge silent partner in the transition that we've undertaken this year, which is why I am so, so, so honored to be able to be here for his Normal Gossip debut.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  Jasper, hello. Thank you so much for joining me.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Hello. Thank you so much for having me. This is like the best day of my life.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  I'm so excited that you're here. I think this might be one of the most exciting moments for not just us, but our entire company. Like, everyone I've told that you're gonna be on the show is like, I can't fucking wait.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Everyone knows I'm a yapper at this point. After five years of working together, they know I can yap. I can yap with the best of them.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  You are a champion yapper. Have you always been this way? Is this a skill that you developed? What's your relationship with gossip?

• 4:13Speaker 01

  I have always loved gossip. Like, I would say my mother was actively anti-gossip because she staunchly avoided gossiping with other parents about children, which I respect. But I would say as I've gotten older and my friends' kids start going to school, I do not follow her ethos. I am interested in the children's gossip. I have always loved gossip. At every stage of my life, I have had many platonic female friends. And I don't think there's a causal relationship there, but there is an interplay there, which is connected to the reality that gossip is generally not coded for straight men and boys.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, 100%.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  You have had a couple of straight men on the show. I must be the first one to just say like, I love gossip.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  No, that is true. So many of them are so scared of gossip. They're like, I'm scared of it, but also I want it. And it's like, baby, there's no reason to be scared.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like a social norming thing. And like, I can remember, I was thinking about this question. I was like, you know, at various points in my life, I can remember hanging out with the fellas, starting to share some gossip, and then somebody being like, bro, why are you telling us this? And I was like, all right, well, you know, let me text some girlies, like my real friends, who are gonna want to hear about this.

• 5:25Speaker 00

  I'm trying to share with you an experience. What do you mean?

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the proto male loneliness epidemic, man. It's just like,

• 5:34Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  What do you want? You want to talk about, what, stocks? You want to talk about football? Like, we're watching football. We don't have to talk about more football.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Jasper, I already thought that you were so smart, but now I know that I was right. That you're so smart.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  I will tell you that I also can remember various moments where I have been told to shut up about the gossip. And then later on, one of the boys will sidle up to me and be like, but I wanna, I wanna know the rest of the story. Like, what, what, how did that end? There's an instinct there. It was just like, not allowed.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, men are so scared of gossip. They're like, talking about another person is against the law. And it's like, okay, if you're not talking about other people, then what are you talking about? The weather? The weather also involves people. What are you even doing here? What's the point of being alive not to talk about other people? I could talk about this forever, but a little birdie told me that you have some gossip for me, and you know me. You know what I like. So I would feel like that you brought me something specific for me, and I'm real excited about it.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  And let me tell you this. I think this story, it's gonna be the first normal gossip thing to end up on r/finance.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  A subreddit I never visit, but now will.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  I mean, don't, don't go to any subreddits. It's not, none of our business. Okay, so before Defector, you know, I was a management consultant for the better part of a decade. And I have had lots of friends who were consultants at various firms. Now, in the early 2010s, I had a friend from college. We will call her Maura. Maura was a junior analyst at another consulting firm. And she got assigned to a project working for a hedge fund. So if I told another business person, like in a vacuum, a hedge fund has hired a consulting firm. They would be like, sure, that makes sense.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  However, Maura got assigned to a special internal project. The hedge fund was headquartered in Stamford, Connecticut. And they were about to open a second office in New York. But a lot of the senior people at the firm, they lived in Stamford for many years. And they were concerned, they were disgruntled about sometimes having to do the morning commute into New York.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  How long is that commute?

• 7:41Speaker 01

  It is not that long, all told. But to smooth it over with the senior people, the hedge fund decides they're going to hire a consulting firm to figure out the fastest way to commute to New York. Do you want to guess the various transportation options that were in consideration?

• 7:58Speaker 00

  I'm sure public transportation was not one of them, even though I'm sure that that is an option available.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Metro North is an option.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Okay, those little coach buses? I've seen companies bus their people back and forth, so I'm assuming that's also an option.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, in this case, it was like private black car for each person. But yes, just like some sort of a company subsidized transport. And then the last two options, or four options, so Metro North, black car. And then three and four were speedboat and helicopter.

• 8:31Speaker 00

  Speedboat, helicopter.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I swear to God, they are people with too much money. The firm makes billions of dollars. They make millions, tens of million dollars a year. They want to really know comprehensively what is the right answer. So they will go pay a consulting firm hundreds of thousands of dollars to go figure this out for them. For several weeks, Maura would get up early. She would get her ass out to Stanford by 7:00 AM. And then she would take the various transportation options back to New York. And then at like 6:00 PM, she would then take those transportation options out to Connecticut. And then she would time the trips and she would like check the variants and see what potential roadblocks would happen and what it costs. After several weeks, do you want to guess what her recommendation was?

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Is it Metro North?

• 9:16Speaker 01

  It is take the fucking Metro North like everybody else.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  So wait, you're telling me your friend was taking helicopters like on a consistent, like multiple helicopters a day? Cause you said commute there, commute back. So she would take two helicopters in one day for a week?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  So for that period of a couple of weeks, every day she would just take something different and she would just like rotate through and time it and price it. And so, yeah, like she rode on the helicopter, she rode on the boats. At the end, the Metro North is just consistent. The express train from Stanford to Grand Central is like 50 minutes and it is very predictable. It does not have delays that often. It's pretty steady, so you can work on the way down. And then like you're in Midtown, you can go anywhere you want.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you're at Grand Central Station, which is a delight.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's beautiful.

• 10:05Speaker 00

  And it is, it's so much better than Penn Station. Wow. How much would something like this cost? Like, how much does it cost to hire someone to price this out?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Uh, something in the six figures to get a whole consulting team to work on this for a couple of weeks. No surprise, Maura quit being a consultant pretty soon after that. Like she is a midwife now.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  I love that for her. I love that path for her. People have, there are crazy jobs out there. Sometimes I'm just reminded of how many crazy jobs there are. Well, now I have some gossip for you. Are you ready?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  I'm so ready. I'm so excited. I'm so scared. Let's go.

• 10:46Speaker 00

  We've been cooking up a fun, special holiday project for y'all over here at Normal Gossip. And usually when work gets crazy, I kind of just try to continue my life like nothing's happening. But recently, thanks to therapy, this time around, I was like, what if I did not try to pour from an empty cup? And that is what growing feels like. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, then I think you should check out today's sponsor, Growth Therapy. Growth Therapy is built for therapy that actually feels like care. You can find therapy based on what matters most to you, like insurance taken, mental health specialties, identity, or night and weekend availability if you're working a lot.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Book your first session in minutes and you can start in as little as two days. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on your insurance plan. Prepare for holiday glimmers instead of holiday stress. Visit growtherapy.com/gossip to get started today. That is growtherapy.com/gossip. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. I'm gonna admit something embarrassing. I know, shocker. I have not had a bedside lamp for an undisclosed amount of months, long enough that I basically haven't read before bed for a really long time. And I only realized this because I'm hosting a friend and I was like, wow,

• 12:16Speaker 00

  they deserve to have a light by their bed at night. I don't. But this finally inspired me to find the perfect bedside lamp and I had a vision in mind. Wayfair, they had exactly what I need, which is one of those library style lights with like the green lampshade and little pull cord. I have been having this image in my mind of having one and now I have one because of course Wayfair had it. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so you can host and celebrate without distress. When refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com. That's O D O O dot com.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  Today's story is about tulips. Before we get into it, what are your feelings about tulips? What do you know about them?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  They caused a big stock market crash.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  What?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  The Dutch tulip stock market crash.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  This is not anything that I thought you would say. That is incredible.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Otherwise, my feelings about tulips are it's one of, you know, like three or four flowers I can name off the top of my head. So, you know, a top five flower for me, definitely.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Wow, beautiful. Our friend of a friend did not know a whole lot about tulips when this story started. In fact, she didn't know a lot about gardening at all. Our friend of a friend today is named Erin, and Erin is a traveling nurse. So as I'm sure you can imagine, Erin has moved around a lot and not just in adulthood. Her dad was in the army, so she spent her entire childhood moving around. She has not lived in a house with a yard since she was 16. And at the time of our story, she's in her late 30s. So she has a whole lot of capital B, capital F, big feelings about owning a home that no one can ever make her move out of.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  That is the elder millennial problem, man. We're all sitting here. Our parents are still asking us why we're renting. That's just how it goes.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, and like an elder millennial, unfortunately for Erin, she has not had the best of luck with the whole owning a home thing, not least because she's had to move three times in the last 18 months because of her job, from North Carolina to Maine to Minnesota. But it is in Minnesota that it seems like Erin's dream of buying a home might finally come true. The hospital Erin is working at is so understaffed that her six-month contract was almost immediately converted to a full-time position. Her husband- And Andy's new job pays significantly more than his last one. And then there's the fact that Erin and Andy are not trying to buy a home in the middle of the pandemic for the first time. Jasper, you're a businessman.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Am I correct in remembering that the housing market sucked for buyers for a lot of 2020 and 2021?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I mean, the housing market has sucked for a long time, but prices just go up and up. But yes, 2020, 2021, 2022 was crazy bananas. So good for Erin and Andy. Yeah.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Erin and Andy's two prior home buying attempts in North Carolina and Maine had been unsuccessful. But third time, she's the charm. And there must be something in that Minnesota soil because after putting in offers for three different houses, their third offer is accepted.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  All right.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  And this was the house that they actually really wanted anyway. It's close enough to the hospital that Erin can bike during the fall and spring and take the light rail during winter. She's not taking a speedboat to work. So the house that Erin and Andy get, it's a three bed, two bath. It's on the older side, like it was built in the 1920s. But both the kitchen and the bathrooms have been recently renovated. Most of the important appliances are new, including the water heater. The garage is even heated, which seems important for Minnesota during the winter. The neighborhood is super cute. The streets, they're all tree line. It's kind of perfect.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Is there anything like totally non-essential that you have to have in your home? Like, one of the things that sold me on my apartment, besides the fact that it is rent stabilized, is that it has a window in the bathroom. I hate being in a bathroom that has no window. I'm just like, I'm trapped.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  In our household, my wife ended up getting fixated on having at least a fake chimney. So we would have a fake fireplace. So we currently have an electric fireplace, which is amazing, actually. So I do love that.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Wow. I love a fireplace. Well, for Erin, this is the backyard, specifically the garden. Because for the past two decades, the closest Erin has ever come to having a garden is having like planter pots on her little slab of concrete behind her townhouse. And when she was younger, Erin had planted gardens in some of the houses she lived in as a kid, but they had always moved before she could harvest anything. So having a garden means a lot to Erin. And her new backyard is not massive. A lot of it's taken up by the deck, but the remaining yard is more than big enough for the garden of Erin's dreams. And before they even close on the house, Erin is already planning out what sort of greens and veggies and fruit she's gonna plant.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  And luckily, the closing process goes fairly smoothly until Erin and Andy's real estate agent tell them that the previous homeowners are requiring a wet signature to close. I'm assuming you know what a wet signature is.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Um, it's just not an e-signature. They're like, we have to meet up and actually like get a ballpoint pen and write it down.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Correct. Minnesota state law actually allows you to close on a house using DocuSign. Like, they call it remote online notarization or RON. But the previous homeowners are like, we want a wet signature. They want this done at the house with them present, along with Erin, Andy, and both realtors, plus a notary. This is in 2023, so this is not necessarily a health risk. But what do you think of this request from the previous homeowners?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  Uh, it's just, it's very specific. Like, everything has moved to e-signature. I can't remember the last time I needed to notarize something since 2020. Uh, and RON is a perfectly, you know, Minnesota name for a system that works for everybody. So they should just do the RON.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  They should, yeah. Our friend Erin is not a fan. She is like, why can we not just do this online? She's tired of living week to week in an Airbnb. She wants to buy furniture and little baskets to carry around the garden. Every day that passes is the day that Erin is not puttering around with a pair of shears and a little trowel. And it's taking forever to find a time that works for all of them, which I'm sure you understand as someone who's tried to schedule a dinner for more than four adults. Um, impossible.

• 19:43Speaker 00

  So Erin is immediately anti the previous homeowners who are called the Millers. Her husband, Andy, is also not really thrilled about the whole wet signature thing, but he doesn't have a lot of feelings about buying a house because his parents didn't convert his childhood bedroom to an office until the day he got married. Uh, so he's like, I've always had a home.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Must be nice.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's like, the Millers probably have their own big feelings about selling this house and it's only an extra week in the Airbnb and we can use as a shopper furniture, right?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  No, everybody is paying way more money. The holding costs of holding on to a house for longer than you need, the closing costs get dragged on, the Airbnb, honestly, if they were gonna wait for this, I'd be like, you have to split the cost of my Airbnb for the next week that I have to stay in.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Everything is up for negotiation, alright?

• 20:35Speaker 00

  Well, Erin does not think of this. She's like, fine, I guess we'll buy furniture. Uh, she's not looking forward to meeting the Millers in person though, not least because the only time that worked for everyone was a Saturday afternoon, like a perfect sunny Saturday afternoon that Erin could have been spending in her garden, but whatever, it's fine. What kind of vibe would you expect the Millers to have?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Honestly, a sort of a, we saw you from across the bar and we like the way you look vibe. Like, what the hell do we have to meet in person for? Like, truly, why do you have to see me physically? I don't know, maybe they're very physically attached to this house and want to say goodbye to it and, you know, give you a real talking to about how you have to take good care of it.

• 21:14Speaker 00

  So Erin, who, if you remember, is an Army brat, immediately clocks Mr. Miller as ex-military. He has a crew cut that is so precise, it looks like he goes to the barber with a ruler. Um, he's kind of giving the general from Avatar, the movie with the blue people. Like, despite the fact that he is like, at least in his 60s, he is absolutely jacked and he's wearing khakis on a Saturday and his shirt is tucked in?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  I'm imagining Sean Penn in, uh, One Battle After Another.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  I think that's a perfect reference. Um, his wife, Mrs. Miller, is total, complete opposite. Like, she's giving coastal grandmother a combination of Diane Keaton from Something's Gotta Give and Oprah in every video that she posts from her garden with her little basket.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  And it's Mrs. Miller who tells them that they're actually not moving that far. They're just downsizing now that Mr. Miller is retired. And Mrs. Miller always wanted to live in the big city of downtown Minneapolis. So they bought a condo just 15 minutes away. Mr. Miller looks less than thrilled about this. And it's not until later that Erin and Andy find out why. But before we get to that, I wanted to ask, are you someone who reads every word of a contract? Like, did you actually read your lease?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Um, I read every word of a contract unless I have a lawyer reading it. A thing that I am wet-signaturing, absolutely, I'm gonna read every single word.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  Uh, so here's where I admit that I am more like our friend of a friend.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  I fully got a cat before I checked my lease to see if I could.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Rachel.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  Or am I supposed to notify my landlord first?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  This is why Sierra said I could be judgmental of you during the episode too. Okay, I see it now. This is, I understand what's happening.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  It turned out fine. I'm in my apartment and it's great.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  And your cat is there.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Exactly. So it turned out totally fine. And this is how Erin feels. She's like, it's gonna turn out totally fine. And she's been through the home buying process before. And the first few times she had like read every single like permit and agreement in the closing papers. And then she like wouldn't get the house. And all of her friends are like, it's so many papers. No one actually reads them. It's gonna feel bad, but you just sign them all and you just don't worry about it. Their Realtor had assured them that the contract was standard and Andy had promised that he read the whole thing. So Erin's like, I can just sign an initial. Her hand is cramping by the end.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  It's okay, though, cuz the Millers hand over the keys and Erin is officially a homeowner. It's not until Erin and Andy get back to their Airbnb, though, that they see that they actually have an email from the Millers. The subject line is Tulip Care and Keeping. And included as an attachment is a hand drawn diagram of the backyard, including the deck, and the location of all the plants already in the garden. Most prominently marked on this map are the tulips. So two important things to know about tulips. They bloom from early spring to early summer and they're bulb plants like garlic, which means that you don't have to replant them.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  And also that if you're looking at a field of tulips in like December, it just looks like mulch, which is why Erin had not noticed that half of the area that Erin had planned to have for her garden is filled with tulips.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 24:53Speaker 00

  The Millers are one of those couples that have like a joint email account. So Erin and Andy don't know who sent this email until they get to the bottom of it. I want to ask you, what Miller do you think sent this email?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  That is definitely Barbara Miller.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  You named her?

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Barbara Miller, yes. Barbara and Glenn, that's what I'm going to call them in my head.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  That's their names now, Barbara and Glenn. To Erin's shock and maybe yours, it is Mr. Miller.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Oh, wow, Glenn.

• 25:21Speaker 00

  Emailing about the tulips.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Glenn. Glenn contains multitudes, okay.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  Mr. Miller writes that the tulips growing in what is now Erin's garden are not just your average grocery store tulips. These are the pride of the community garden. They are a crossbreed between two different varietals. It took eight years to perfect. These tulips have won multiple prizes at the Minnesota State Fair. And Mr. Miller writes, he would really appreciate if Erin and Andy didn't undo any of his hard work. So he includes care instruction for the tulips, most of which are just like basic gardening tips. Andy's like, wow, isn't this great? Your garden's already started. This is not Erin's response.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  If I were looking on the bright side, I would understand what Andy was saying. Like Erin, you have not actually had a garden for many decades now. And so it is nice to have a head start a little bit. It actually, from that description, the fact that you don't have to replant them, sounds like tulips sort of do have an advantage. On the other hand, it's a lot of pressure. And surely you are about to tell me about some sort of a contractual clause that is going to make it like light meddling to like actually serious legally binding meddling.

• 26:37Speaker 00

  I can't confirm or deny that. Erin is like, how dare he? She's like, why was this not mentioned during the hour? We just spent signing documents together.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  By the time Erin and Andy move into their new house, it is already November. So they're kind of like, there's nothing to be done. We're not going to go digging around right now anyway. And there is so much to be done inside the house. That whole winter is Erin and Andy's HGTV era. They've got Pinterest boards. They're putting up wallpaper. They're painting. They're learning how to use different drill bits. They're rediscovering how expensive rugs are. We love it. Except for the fact that throughout that first winter in their new house, Mr. Miller keeps emailing them about the tulips. In December, he's like, the weatherman said there's a hard frost coming this weekend. Don't forget to cover the garden with mulch.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  That's the whole time of Minneapolis. Minneapolis in December, in January and February, that's it's a hard frost that whole time.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Exactly. And Erin had also already done this. She's preparing her garden. She didn't need his help.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  She's a nurse. She can follow directions. She understands keeping things alive.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  And then Mr. Miller in March is like, have you started adding compost to the flower beds? A few weeks after that, he's like, what sort of rabbit mitigation system do you have in place? Cause apparently rabbits love tulip bulbs. How would you handle this guy?

• 28:16Speaker 01

  I would thank him in very increasingly curt ways. Of like, thanks, I was on it. I got it. I understand your concern and I do not need your hovering over my shoulder.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. Erin is at the point where she's like, what if I just went outside and dug up every single one of those tulip bulbs in the backyard? She's like, I think we should just tell this guy to fuck off. But Andy is not worried at all. He's like, I can manage this guy. He's probably just lonely. And Andy doesn't want to make things awkward. Cause one thing I forgot to mention is that even though the Millers moved downtown, they still have a lot of friends in the neighborhood. So it's not uncommon to see them in a coffee shop or at the community garden. And Erin's husband, Andy, is, uh, conflict avoidant. So Andy's like, I got this. Don't worry. You send Mr. Miller's emails straight to spam and I'll handle him.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  You don't even have to think about it.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Sweet, conflict averse Andy, fitting right in, in Minneapolis, from what I understand.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Midwestern nice.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Oh, we might run into them at a coffee shop one time in the next three months. And therefore I have to keep up appearances with this person. Okay, great.

• 29:31Speaker 00

  Do you believe Andy when he says that he's got it handled?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  You say that so sadly.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Well, again, we foreshadowed that Andy was the one who was supposed to read the contract. And so I already don't believe in him when he says he's gonna stay on top of the details. So yeah, I think this is gonna go sideways because Andy can't handle this situation.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Erin's working 12 hour shifts at the hospital at this point. So she's like, you know what? Fine. You handle it. But then she's like, if that man tries to come over to see the tulips, or whatever the fuck, it's gonna be a problem. Erin's like, I grew up around military guys. You give them an inch and they take a mile. If you let him in, we will never get rid of him. Also, the history of American imperialism, if you think about it.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, military men. That is a, it's, it's not a metaphor for anything. That's just like, you know, how the US Army wants you to behave, only interpersonally.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Andy's like, totally fair. I don't want our home to be invaded either. But he's like, but think about all the tulips we're gonna have. It'll be like when we went to Amsterdam for our honeymoon. And the thing is, unfortunately for Erin, Andy is right. We hate to see when a man is right. Erin sends Mr. Miller's emails to spam and he entirely disappears from her life. And before Erin even has a chance to plant her own garden, the tulips start blooming in the backyard and they're like, absolutely stunning. Like Erin cannot help smiling whenever she sees them. Do you have any concerns as of this moment? Things are going pretty well.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Things sound great. We can get through a whole normal gossip episode where things just keep going swimmingly. That's what I believe is gonna happen in this episode.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  In late May, when the tulip's glory is starting to fade, Erin's at work. She's on her lunch break. She's checking her personal email when she sees an email that has been forwarded to her by Andy. And all she needs to read is the word tulips in the subject line and Miller in the email address before she's calling Andy. She's like, what is this? I thought you were handling this. And Andy's like, I know, I know. But you seem like you really didn't want him to come over. Uh, and well, did you read the email? And Erin's like, I did not read the email because you promised me I would not have to deal with this man anymore. And Andy's like, can you please just read the email? So Erin reads the email and honestly, it's probably the best for everyone

• 31:52Speaker 00

  that she is at work when this is happening. Because the email is actually several emails dating back to a week and a half ago. When Mr. Miller had asked when he could come over to harvest the tulip bulbs as promised. Erin's like, promise? What promise? And Andy's like, just keep reading.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  It's not a promise, that's a threat. There was a threat at some point in the past.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  So Erin keeps reading. Andy had very politely responded like, I'm not sure what promise you're talking about. But unfortunately, we are doing some landscaping in the garden, so it is not fit for company. But I am more than happy to harvest some tulip bulbs for you and drop them off. It would be no trouble. Does this seem like a fair compromise to you?

• 32:34Speaker 01

  That does seem like a fair compromise. That is a good job by Andy maintaining boundaries and trying to hold the line here. I am wondering, I don't really know how gardening works. So is this sort of like, if he harvests the tulips, he is now out of your hair forever? Like, his tulip operation now goes somewhere else? Or is this like, actually setting a precedent that every spring I'm going to show up and harvest some tulips? Like, I would do some Googling around about just like, what goes into harvesting tulip bulbs?

• 33:08Speaker 00

  Erin is also kind of in the same place. She's like, begrudgingly, like, that was a good solution. But she's like, you should have told him to fuck off. I told you about these military guys. And Andy's like, can you please just finish reading the email? So finally Erin gets to the final email in the chain, which is from Mr. Miller and which reads, "While I appreciate your generous offer, it is essential that my tulips are harvested with the correct technique to ensure viability. I will be there on Saturday, May 13th at 0900 to harvest my 130 bulbs of tulips."

• 33:44Speaker 01

  130 bulbs, oh shit, okay.

• 33:46Speaker 00

  Mr. Miller then continues, "I sincerely hope you two are willing to honor the agreement you signed, which if you recall, makes reference to the Minnesota doctrine of enablments that ensures us free access to the premises for the express purpose of harvesting our property. View link for clarity. Thank you for understanding and your cooperation. See you Saturday."

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Andy, Andy, Andy. Here's the thing, there is also a way to go about skimming contracts, right? Like, there are clauses where it's like, uh, we promise to hold harmless and, you know, if we go into litigation into New York courts, like, yeah, sure, skim those things. If you see something that is like, link here, like weird Minnesota statute that you don't otherwise know, like, you have to actually read those things, okay? Come on, Andy.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Have you ever heard the phrase "doctrine of enablments" before?

• 34:39Speaker 01

  I, I'm gonna be honest, I'm not even sure what that word, the word that you're saying, it sounds like it is a noun, but I do not know to what that is referring.

• 34:47Speaker 00

  Also, Erin in the same position, she's like, "What the fuck is this?" And she might have heard of it if she had read the contract, but listen, Glass House is over here, I can't really be talking. So Erin's like, "What the fuck is the doctrine of enablments?" And Andy's like, "Based on the legal document he attached, it's something about crops?" So Erin opens the legal document that Mr. Miller had attached to his email. She reads the phrase "farm tenant's right to enablments", and then immediately closes the document before going to Google, where she finds a Wikipedia page that states that the doctrine of enablments operates to guarantee the farmer's right to reap and carry away

• 35:30Speaker 00

  the fruits of his labor, even if he loses title to the land on which they are grown.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  All right, I know this is my coastal elite perspective.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  But this is some like daylight savings ass.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Why do we bend over backwards for the farm lobby bullshit? Okay, you've lost title and deed. Like, what do you mean? Like, that is, that is how this country works. All right, you know, who owns that land? Sorry to be too capitalist about this, but like, those are,

• 36:01Speaker 01

  we do operate in a capitalist society and those are what the laws are. I guess unless we carve it out for the farmers.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Which we do very often.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  That's right. The government's gonna buy some soybeans here also.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  It is rhyming with that big time.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  So Erin reads that the doctrine of implements usually pertains to tenant farmers who lose access to the land they were leasing before harvest.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  And Erin's no lawyer, but she's like, we bought our house. I'm paying the mortgage every month. Wouldn't that make the property ours? What would you do at this point?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  First, let me just backtrack and say, I, I support the tenants' rights here. I did not know what I was talking about. Now that you've explained more to me, all right, I am on labor side. People should be able to harvest the fruits of their own labor. So let me just back up and let me just say that.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Hold on, I started saying some stuff about capitalism and I just wanna walk that back gently. Okay?

• 37:01Speaker 00

  That's real, that's real.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  I already told this whole story about finance and hedge funds. Like, I gotta, I gotta make sure people understand what side I'm on here. Okay?

• 37:08Speaker 00

  No, it's true.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Okay, my actual answer here is I would figure out how to get in touch with a lawyer who actually knows Minnesota laws. So, you know, it's not like call a friend of a friend who's in law school. Like, I think you sort of have to start paying up to figure out what this is.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, Erin and Andy are on the same page and they're like, we've already paid somebody related to this. So they decide to email their Realtor. So they forward all the emails that Mr. Miller has sent along with Erin's research on implement laws. And the Realtor responds like, this is bullshit. There is nothing about this in the contract. And even if there was, the doctrine of implements wouldn't apply here since your backyard is not a farm. Erin? She's victorious. She's like, I finally have the green light to tell this man to fuck off, which I have been wanting to do since November. And it is almost mid-May at this point. She's got months of pent up garden-related rage, years, if you count her childhood trauma.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  So Erin sits down, little clickety-clack keyboard to write an email. She's like, we have reached out to our Realtor for guidance because, quite frankly, we feel blindsided by this request. Our Realtor confirmed to us that there is no mention of tulips in our contract. Furthermore, the doctrine you cite above does not apply to this situation. We are the legal owners of this property, including the tulips. And while we don't appreciate the way you've engaged with us, it's clear how much these tulips mean to you. So as a courtesy, we'll be consulting with our Realtor as to the best way forward. Perhaps you can pick up a few bulbs from her office.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Good for Erin and Andy.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Erin sends this email and is like, you know what? Actually, I'm a benevolent bitch. I could have gone harder.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  I gotta say, that is a real professional email. I think that is appropriately aggressive. I think the trouble here is, I appreciate the Realtor not being mealy-mouthed, right? I could have imagined the Realtor being like, this is not my business. Like, you go ask somebody else. On the other hand, Realtors are not lawyers. And so I don't know that I believe the Realtor when she says this is bullshit. And respectfully, my mother, my mother is a Realtor. So I'm not, I'm not dissing Realtors writ large. I'm just saying, her legal acumen is not why my mother is a good Realtor. Okay, it's more about like a friendly demeanor and like good customer service. Like, that's not what this is.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Keep that in mind for a little bit later. But before we get to that, do you think Mr. Miller will agree that Erin is a benevolent bitch?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Again, I have Sean Penn in my head. And so, no, I think he is going to escalate in retaliation.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, Mr. Miller is like, the best way forward is for me to come get my 130 tulip bulbs on Saturday at 0900. And then he's like, do not harvest a single bulb without my supervision. It is a highly technical process. Andy is like hyperventilating at this point. He's like, what are we gonna do if he actually comes here? Did you see how big that man is? Erin's like, this is why. You should have told him to fuck off in November like I told you to. So what options do you think our friends have here? Let's assume they don't want to involve the cops.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Look, on one end, you could very well just let him show up and do the tulip stuff. Again, it's not like he is gonna go rifling through your stuff in your basement. Like, he just wants to go around back and just get the stuff out.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  But that is capitulating rather easily.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  No, it's true.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  So, I don't know. You know, on the other end of the spectrum, just like digging it all up and dumping it out in front of the garden. So when he shows up, he just sees a bunch of dead tulip bulbs. I don't think that is out of the question either. You know, there's probably some middle ground here that is better than either of those options. But I would not blame them for going in either direction.

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Luckily for our friends, they don't have to make that choice. Because a couple hours after Mr. Miller's last email, Erin gets a call from her and Andy's realtor, who's like, "You're not gonna believe this." Apparently, the Miller's real estate agent had gotten in contact with her. And the Miller's real estate agent had been like, "My client has just got in touch with me about some tulips." And then he's like, "I had no idea what Mr. Miller was talking about. So I talked to my colleague." And this is the moment that Erin and Andy learn that halfway through their home selling process, the Millers had switched real estate agents. Their first agent had gone on maternity leave. During the switch to the second one, the Miller's very specific request about harvesting the tulips in May had gotten lost.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  Oh, so it's not in the contract?

• 41:56Speaker 00

  It's not in the contract.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  All right, that's not their fucking problem then.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  Apparently, because Andy kept replying so nicely to his emails, Mr. Miller had been operating under the assumption that there was a mutual understanding about the tulips. This is why he'd gotten so upset. He thought that Erin and Andy had just decided to keep them for themselves. Erin and Andy's real estate agent is like, "Mr. Miller is very embarrassed, and he wishes to convey his deepest apologies."

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Okay, here's the thing. Glenn Miller, I've said it the whole story, is a stand-up guy. Okay? I have never, play the tape back, I have never said a negative thing. I've never implied anything.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  So true.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Except that Glenn Miller, as a military man, very upstanding, all right? Highly ethical.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  The military, the American military that we famously love and adore.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  That's right, yes.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  We are almost at the end of our story. Do you think there are any villains here?

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Honestly, everyone is behaving reasonably well with that misunderstanding. Even the realtors, I'm like, yeah, handing off stuff when people go out on leave. That's tough. Somebody should have caught it, but you know, it happens. So I'm, I'm very pleased to hear that. Nobody is acting really out of pocket here.

• 43:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, this development softens Erin's feelings towards Mr. Miller. She's like, listen, I'm a nurse practitioner. I get it. You spend more than three years working on something and you just go a little bit crazy. So, fine. So she and Andy, they email the Millers. They're like, we appreciate the apology. And then they extend what I think is a very kind offer, which is they offer to harvest half of the tulip bulbs and leave them out on Saturday morning at oh nine hundred hours.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  Okay, they're gonna harvest sixty five of tulip bulbs and then?

• 43:40Speaker 00

  You did that math so fast.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  That's right, baby. I'm in charge of your company's finances. I gotta divide one thirty by half. Okay, but the other sixty five tulips are just gonna be, they're keeping them? They're letting?

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, cuz they're so pretty.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, right. That's right. Erin came around on liking the tulips. Okay, that's actually, that's great. I love that.

• 44:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, the Millers accept and the handoff goes really smoothly. Like Mrs. Miller comes by herself to pick up the tulips. And she only takes thirty of the bulbs, even though Erin and Andy had dug up sixty five. Mrs. Miller even apologizes for all the trouble. She's like, I'm so sorry about my husband. I thought getting him into the city would make him less obsessed with these tulips. But you should not have any more trouble with him.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Barbara Miller, also, I've never said one negative word about Barb, okay?

• 44:33Speaker 00

  Nope.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Barb Miller.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  Barb and Glenn.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Barb and Glenn, they're my people. And now they've left you with a hundred beautiful tulips? That's great, yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, and Barb Miller leaves Erin and Andy with her number, just in case any other trouble comes up. Uh, this does end up coming in handy almost immediately because a few hours after Mrs. Miller picks up the tulips, Mr. Miller sends an email like, this is less than a quarter of the bulbs. Where are the rest? Erin, immediately on the phone with Barb. And then ten minutes later.

• 45:08Speaker 00

  She and Andy receive another email from Mr. Miller, who says, "I was informed by my wife that the correct amount of bulbs were obtained. Thank you for your attention to this matter."

• 45:21Speaker 00

  And that's the end of our story.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  All right. No villains. Everyone's behaving.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  No villains. See, you said halfway through that nothing, that it wouldn't end well.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  It ended great. And you know what? I was maligning Andy. That's another person who, I will admit, I did say some negative things about Andy, but.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  And you know what?

• 45:43Speaker 01

  He did read the contract. He did.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  It's true. Did he remember whether or not this was referenced in the contract? It's unclear if he read the contract.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  That's a good point, because he did not immediately say, "I read the contract and it's not in there." He was like, "Oh, shit, I'm in trouble. I did skim some of it."

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Exactly. He didn't even Ctrl+F implement.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  So Andy, who knows what's going on?

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Andy is a nice Midwestern man. He's doing his best to try to hold Aaron up. Like, okay.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  He is. Well, thank you, Jasper. That was a delight.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  I'm so happy to have heard it. I'm so happy it worked out for everybody. I'm so thrilled to be here today.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at [email protected], or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip. You can follow me on all social media at HeyDnA, H-E-Y-Y-D-N-A-E. This podcast was produced by Ciara Spragley-Ritz and Jay Tolbierra. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatzick. The co-creators and dowager queens of Normal Gossip are Kelsey McKinney and Defector's supervising producer, Alex Hujan-Loughlin. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  Jasper Wang and Sean Coon are Defector's business guys. Tom Lay is our editor in chief. Dan McLeod runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Brandy Jensen, David Roth, Catherine Shu, Serena Imbler, Chris Thompson, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Rado for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and remember, you didn't hear this from me.

• 47:42Speaker 03

  Radiotopia.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  From PRX.