Demented Little Tango with Vinson Cunningham

Vinson Cunningham accompanies us to a fancy private school where the parents tend to get a little too involved in the yearly fundraiser. Follow Vinson on Instagram here https://www.instagram.com/vinsoncunningham/?hl=en. Get your tickets for the Normal Gossip Live tour here https://www.normalgossiplive.com/! Subscribe to our newsletter for writing from Rachelle, Se'era, Jae, Alex, and Kelsey, plus blog recommendations and secrets! https://defector.com/normal-gossip-podcast You can support Normal Gossip directly by buyingmerch https://defectorstore.com/collections/normal-gossip or becoming a Friend or a Friend-of-Friend atsupportnormalgossip.com https://defector.com/products/normalgossip. Our merch shop is run by Dan McQuade. You can also find all kinds of info about us and how to submit gossip on our Komi page:https://normalgossip.komi.io/ Episode transcript here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hyCBjtgVNQn6FSGhHODCeHUFKIir238Bj47RFPoB-dw/edit?usp=sharing. Order Kelsey's book, You Didn’t Hear This From Me, here! https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/kelsey-mckinney/you-didnt-hear-this-from-me/9781538757406/?lens=grand-central-publishing Follow the show on Instagram@normalgossip https://www.instagram.com/normalgossip/, and if you have gossip, email us at [email protected] or leave us a voicemail at 26-79-GOSSIP. Normal Gossip is hosted by Rachelle Hampton (@heyydnae https://www.instagram.com/heyydnae/?hl=en) and produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks (@seera_sharae https://www.instagram.com/seera_sharae/?hl=en) and Jae Towle Vieira (@jaetowlevieira https://instagram.com/jaetowlevieira?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==). Alex Sujong Laughlin (@alexlaughs https://www.instagram.com/alexlaughs/) is our Supervising Producer. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Show art by Tara Jacoby. Normal Gossip is a proud member ofRadiotopia https://www.radiotopia.fm/. Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

• 0:06Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast, we're gonna bring you an anonymous mouthful of gossip from the real world. We have only got two more episodes of season eight after this week, if you can believe it. But have no fear, if you have been listening to the past few episodes or following us on Instagram at Normal Gossip, then you know that this September, Ciara and I are bringing Normal Gossip to nine different cities. We are stopping in New York, Boston, Seattle, Portland, Oregon, Denver, Dallas, Austin, Chicago, and Minneapolis. Tickets

• 0:48Speaker 00

  went on sale to the public on Friday, May 9th, so that means that if you are listening right now, in this moment, and live in any of those cities, you can go buy a ticket immediately at NormalGossipLive.com. Every show has exclusive VIP tickets that include a meet and greet with Ciara and I, so I hope you're all workshopping what delicious little tidbits of gossip we're gonna bring us. I know we're close to four months out, but a little birdie did tell me that Minneapolis, Boston, and Portland are selling particularly fast, so if you live in those cities and have been considering buying a ticket, I'd do it too. That is all the housekeeping for today's show. Now, onto the gossip. Today,

• 1:31Speaker 00

  I'm so excited to be joined by one of my absolute favorite writers in the whole wide world, Vincent Cunningham. Vincent is a staff writer at The New Yorker, where he's written about theater and television. He's also a co-host of Critics at Large, which is The New Yorker's weekly culture podcast. Last year, he published a gorgeous novel called Great Expectations. Yes, there's another very famous novel with that title, but let's be real here, Vincent's is better. It's a semi-autobiographical novel about a young black man working on the historical presidential campaign of a black senator from Illinois. Yes, I know that sounds familiar. Yes, it is who you think it is. Yes, it is so good.

• 2:15Speaker 00

  It came out in paperback, and I truly think everyone should go out and buy it right now. But without further ado, here's the man, the myth, the legend himself, Vincent. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  This is my total pleasure. This is the best to be on a podcast with somebody I already like to talk to. Joy.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  I'm so excited to gossip with you. I already know that you're good at gossip because I've heard you gossip before.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Wow, I can't even like pretend on this podcast that I don't do that.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  Well, perfect because I have to ask you, what's your relationship with gossip? And we love honesty and transparency on this podcast.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Well, as you just exposed for me, sometimes I do in fact gossip. I do still feel though that and maybe the reason that I do it when I feel empowered and equipped to do so is that generally I am not a good receiver of gossip. I feel like I don't know what it is. Maybe I have like cop energy. Maybe I have

• 3:20Speaker 01

  church boy energy, whatever it is, people tend not to tell me like, just like weird lurid secrets, which is of course the fuel of all gossip. I don't know, or it's taken me a while for that to be the condition of my life. Um, I often analogize it to this. You know, there's just a big party and then you learn that there's cocaine in the bathroom. No one has ever told me about the cocaine. I never know that there's drugs. I'm always the one from whom it is hit in plain sight.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Okay, having been to a party with you, I can pretty confidently say that you don't have cop energy. But I am going to give you a chance to prove your gossip credentials. A little birdie told me you have some gossip for me.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  I do. A guy that I sort of knew, like a friend of a friend, which is the perfect person to like hear gossip about. In high school, went to another, a different private school in New York City. And these are schools where you always kind of know other people in your grade, even though they don't go to your school. You go to a party, they're there. They're like people from other schools in this like network of private schools are always kind of drifting in and out of your consciousness. This kid was also a party promoter in high school. And a kid who even when we were Sixteen seventeen was throwing parties, securing venues.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  How is a sixteen year old securing venues?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  I, listen, because of his rich parents. So he got in our senior year expelled from a school not far from my school. And I have a friend who was in the cafeteria at this school on the day in question. This kid, we'll call him Daniel.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Daniel busts into the cafeteria with a cigarette between his forefinger and middle finger, yelling, fuck, blank school, fuck. All the various administrators of blank school, fuck dean of students who was hot on his heels as this occurred. Daniel, before he can be stopped, jumps up onto a chair and then onto a table, gives his sort of final will and testament about the school. He's going out in a blaze of glory. The dean of student accosts him and drags him out of the cafeteria.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Now, this is a true story because I knew someone who was on the scene. But as these things occur, the legend grows. Again, as I mentioned, this kid was a very rich guy. So over the next months and years, this legend lived on in New York City private schools that he paid off a cab driver early that morning, drove it onto the grounds of the school, drove it through the gates onto the middle of the green, crashed into a gate and started his stampede of glory, which ended in this cafeteria.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. Wait, so why did Daniel decide to go on a rampage? Why was he like, fuck this school?

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Because he'd gotten away with everything that it was possible to get away with.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  Oh, it was just a power trip?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  And then he finally got kicked out of school. And he said, you know what? I'm tearing this motherfucker down.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Renting a cab for a day just to come into your cafeteria to say fuck all of you. I mean, I'm gonna be honest, that's how I wanted to go out of high school, too. Vincent, that was incredible gossip. And also, you managed to perfectly sync up with the gossip that I'm about to tell you.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Are you ready?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  We've been cooking up a fun, special holiday project for y'all over here at Normal Gossip. And usually when work gets crazy, I kind of just try to continue my life like nothing's happening. But recently, thanks to therapy, this time around, I was like, what if I did not try to pour from an empty cup? And that is what growing feels like. If you've been thinking about starting therapy, then I think you should check out today's sponsor, Growth Therapy. Growth Therapy is built for therapy that actually feels like care. You can find therapy based on what matters most to you, like insurance taken, mental health specialties, identity, or night and weekend availability if you're working a lot.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Book your first session in minutes and you can start in as little as two days. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0, depending on your insurance plan. Prepare for holiday glimmers instead of holiday stress. Visit growtherapy.com/gossip to get started today. That is growtherapy.com/gossip. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

• 8:23Speaker 00

  I'm gonna admit something embarrassing. I know, shocker. I have not had a bedside lamp for an undisclosed amount of months, long enough that I basically haven't read before bed for a really long time. And I only realized this because I'm hosting a friend and I was like, wow, they deserve to have a light by their bed at night. I don't. But this finally inspired me to find the perfect bedside lamp and I had a vision in mind. Wayfair, they had exactly what I need, which is one of those library style lights with like the green lampshade and little pull cord. I have been having this image in my mind of having one and now I have one because of course Wayfair had it.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so you can host and celebrate without distress. When refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 9:27Speaker 03

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• 10:00Speaker 00

  Today, our friend of a friend is named Ellen, and Ellen is in her mid to late 40s. And maybe one of the most important things to know about Ellen is that she has lived in Manhattan and specifically in the West Village for her entire life. Ellen's vibe is champagne socialist.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Okay, I understand.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Both of Ellen's daughters attended a private K through 12, but she also donated to Bernie Sanders and AOC. She contains multitudes. Are you familiar with this vibe?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Ellen is, I mean, a legend in my own mind already. I know her, I see her.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  What are you seeing?

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Well, she wears loose clothing. She wears black leather flats. This year, she's moved on to the two great trends of 2025, the comfortable ballet flat or the simple Mary Jane.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  She wears statement jewelry, rings on top of rings. Ellen owns so, she has a ring drawer.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  You're right, you're right. Vincent, you have perfectly described Ellen.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Like a lot of parents, Ellen's life revolves around her daughter's school, which is a private K through 12.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  It's the kind of school that has like multiple kilns for the ceramics classes.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  They've got a 500 square foot greenhouse so that they can bring nature directly to the students.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  For the purposes of this story, I'm gonna be calling this school Briarwood Academy. Ellen's oldest daughter just graduated from Briarwood while her youngest daughter just started eighth grade there. And Ellen isn't really looking forward to the school year for a few different reasons. The first one is that her oldest daughter has decided to take a gap year before she starts at Stanford, which would be all well and good, except that instead of backpacking around Europe, or like building schools in South America, this child has decided to spend this gap year at home, interning for one of Ellen's longtime frenemies, Hazel.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  What does Hazel do? Oh, no.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  Well, are you someone who avoids having frenemies, or are you someone who's like, sort of energized by their presence?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  See, it depends on what frenemy means. But no, like, everybody that I actually spend time with and talk to and would call me a friend, I actually wish only the best. I would say I have frenemies from afar, people who are nemeses. You know, like, I look at them and like, I'm sort of annoyed by their presence and their career or whatever. And then I get to know them and they're okay, but I'm still like, hmm. That's the closest I get. But I don't have, like, in my life frenemies who call me and nag me and shit.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good way to live your life. Like, you shouldn't have people who are preying on your downfall and your immediate orbit.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  That is 100% true.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, Hazel and Ellen are both in that second group of people who are energized by having frenemies. They both have two kids who are the exact same age, which means they've been battling it out in the same PTA meetings for like, nearly two decades now. And where Ellen is a champagne socialist, Hazel is an espresso martini capitalist.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Oh, shit.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  She's not always wearing a power suit, but like, spiritually she is, you know? She runs a very, very successful boutique PR agency.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  So, an invite to her Christmas party usually means brushing elbows with like, a Hilton or a Getty.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Fair enough. So, we're talking Eileen Fisher instead of whatever else I described. Or like, even, even above, like, we might be, be talking about like, two seasons ago, Dior, et cetera.

• 13:49Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  So when Hazel offers Ellen's daughter an internship, Ellen is like, I can't even be too mad because my daughter is so excited, but also I hate this woman.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  Do you think this is a good idea? Would you allow your child to be taken under the wing of a girl boss?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  The obvious answer here, I think, is that you have to allow it.

• 14:18Speaker 00

  Oh, say more.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Two fronts, personal and structural.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  If you disagree with the politics or the sort of activity that Hazel represents, expressing that to your potentially Republican child will drive them into the arms of this Mitt Romney sounding lady.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  It will turn her into the worst libertarian, right?

• 14:44Speaker 00

  That's so true.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  And similarly, if the problem is purely personal,

• 14:51Speaker 01

  here is a ironclad rule. The moment you first notice your parent simply hating is impossible to forget. And it always makes you wonder what it is that the parent sees in the other person that has occasioned this jealousy antagonism frenemyship, et cetera.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  You have to make sure that your kid never sees you sweat in that kind of interpersonal way. You can express outright hatred, but if it's just hating, you cannot let that show. And it will similarly drive your child into the arms of Hazel, who it seems like she already sort of admires. You gotta let that rock.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, if it was any other year, Hazel brainwashing her daughter into hustle culture would be at the top of Ellen's list of concerns. But this year, Ellen also has to worry about the fact that her other daughter has just entered eighth grade. And eighth grade is a really important year at Briarwood Academy.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  Every year, all three classes of eighth graders at Briarwood participate in a semester-long fundraiser. And whichever class wins the fundraiser by raising the most money gets to choose the theme for the annual eighth grade graduation party. The last time Ellen had been through this fundraiser with her oldest daughter had almost killed her.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  Are you competitive? Do you consider yourself competitive?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  I'm very competitive and yet I feel that it is, um, and maybe this goes to my point about like not showing yourself sweat to your kids. I feel that it's usually gauche to express it. Especially like in your own career. So I save my competitiveness for spades. Like if anybody wants to play me in spades, come see me and I'll talk so much shit to you. It will, it will seem out of character.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  But in real life with like my own career, I like put up a veneer mostly of like, I'm just minding my own business.

• 16:51Speaker 00

  I was gonna say Vincent, you should teach me how to play spades, but I'm realizing that learning spades from a competitive player is actually not good at all. Because I don't think you want me to be your partner.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  It's fine until you're my partner. I could teach you and I could be over your shoulder while you play with somebody else.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, okay. I'll take that. I'll take that.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  One of my friends who you also know is very, very competitive. Like it's not enough for her to win.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:15Speaker 00

  The person she's winning against has to feel bad about losing. Like she hates competing against me because most of the time, I'm kind of just happy to be there. I'm like, I'm so happy you won. And she's like, fuck you. That doesn't count as winning if you're not upset.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. The other amazing thing about this person, our friend, is that the moment she sees somebody do something impressive, she says out loud, I could do that.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  No.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  I think I could do that. She says it with a tenacity and a violence that's like sort of unsettling.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  It is, and I love to see it because usually she can do it. And when she can't do it, it's really funny to see. This is the kind of person that Ellen also is.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  She's usually pretty good at suppressing it or channeling it into her work as an art buyer. And she had tried really, really hard to suppress it during her first eighth grade fundraiser at Briarwood. And that had not worked out. Like things got ugly. Our girl Ellen Mayer may or may not have sabotaged another classroom's bake sale by spreading a rumor that the baked goods weren't nut or gluten free.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Had that big sale been organized by Ellen's frenemy Hazel? Who could say?

• 18:35Speaker 00

  But Ellen has buried that version of herself. It has been four years since then. A whole presidential administration. Ellen is taking CBD now. Ellen has a meditation app. Ellen is not gonna get too involved this year. How are you feeling so far?

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Ellen needs to take up a sport immediately.

• 19:00Speaker 00

  Get into rugby, girl.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  I mean, yes, suppression, first of all, never works. And also, um, too much of her competitive energy is making its way into the lives of her children. She has to take up tennis.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Well, for the first couple of weeks of the school year, everything goes pretty fine. Like Ellen's oldest daughter is having a great time at her internship. And she hasn't asked for a skirt suit or a copy of Lean In yet. So, so far, so good.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Thank God.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  And for a hot minute, it seems like the annual eighth grade fundraiser might even be pretty tame this year. So, like I said, there are three eighth grade classes at Briarwood. From here on out, we're gonna be referring to these classes as classes A, B, and C. So Ellen's daughter is in class A. Hazel's youngest son is in class B. And there's no one we care about in class C. So fundraising starts off relatively chill. At first, there are like bake sales and craft fairs and things of that nature. And these are all mostly engineered by the children themselves. But things start going off the rails when the silent auction rolls around.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  Now Briarwood parents are the kind of people that could very easily donate like dinner on a private yacht or a magnum of champagne or whatever rich people have. I don't really know, but they could donate a lot of shit. So to stop things from getting too crazy, the biggest rule for the silent auction is that nothing can be auctioned off that the kids did not obtain themselves.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Obtained by what means?

• 20:40Speaker 00

  Well, so at first, the auction items include like a personal flash mob by the eighth grade dance team. Or a cutting from the heritage roses that are growing in the Briarwood greenhouse.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  But I'm sure you can guess that these are the kind of parents that always find a way to get involved. So one student in class B has a dad who's like a longtime theater producer in the city. And the producer has his kid write a note to a Broadway star begging for her to take part in the Briarwood fundraiser. And the producer hand delivers this note to the Broadway star's dressing room. So now, one of the items for auction is a private dinner with this Broadway star. Class A, the class that has Ellen's daughter in it, refuses to take this lying down. One of the kids in class A, their mom's best friend, is a celebrity fitness instructor.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  So when the kid asks if their mom's friend will donate a lifetime membership to her classes.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  A lifetime?

• 21:42Speaker 00

  Of course, the celebrity fitness instructor says yes.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  This is insane.

• 21:46Speaker 00

  Do you think any of this constitutes cheating?

• 21:48Speaker 01

  It's all cheating, obviously. It should be.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  This war of nepotistic escalation must end. This is ridiculous. Own means means like, you know, you had to forage it.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  You need to go to Central Park and forage it yourself.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, make some grains from fucking dandelions found on the, in the, one of those dividers between the sides of Broadway.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  What are you talking about? Anyway.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  Ellen is determined not to care. Her meditation app just dropped a new course on thematic breath work.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  New year, new Ellen.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  All of that changes one night when Ellen's oldest daughter is telling her about her day interning for Hazel, Ellen's frenemy. And the daughter is like, I spent all day on the phone. And Ellen's like, well, yeah, that sounds about right for a PR job. But her daughter's like, no, this was different. Hazel had this spreadsheet of clients we had to call to see if they had any items they wanted to donate for some benefit Hazel was throwing. It was so boring. And reflexively, Ellen is like charitable giving is very important for people with the means to do so.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  What?

• 23:15Speaker 00

  But then Ellen kind of pauses because she's always just a little bit suspicious when it comes to literally anything that Hazel does. So Ellen's like, what kind of items are we talking about?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  And her daughter's like, Mom, I know you hate Hazel, but she's kind of incredible at her job. People gave her so much shit. Like someone donated a wheel of cheese imported from Italy, like right from the border of Parmigiano and Reggiano.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Got that Reggiano. She went.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  She went and got that red. Oh, man, that's crazy.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  And then a former chef of Carbone is offering up a private pasta making class and someone else donated this ugly broom that costs $600. How would you respond to this?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Ellen, you have already messed up. If your daughter ever has the occasion to say to you, I know you hate X. And yet they are great at their job. You should just lay, lay down and call for the Lord to take you. That is, it's over for you. Does she suspect yet that the daughter is talking about the eighth grade fundraiser? Does she suspect?

• 24:33Speaker 00

  Well, Ellen's like, I may hate Hazel and also think that Hazel's affinity for Tory Burch is a little tacky, but as a feminist, I will not tear this woman down in front of my daughter. So Ellen tells her daughter, I don't hate Hazel. But our girl Ellen does have her antenna up. Ellen is suspicious and she only gets more suspicious the next day when one of her Briarwood parent friends tells her that apparently Class B had received some incredible new donations for the silent auction that everyone's being really tight lipped about.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  What do you do with this information?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  She has two options and two options only.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  What are the two options?

• 25:18Speaker 01

  So it's either one hundred percent ignore, forget you heard it. And from then on, tell the daughter, for fundraiser related reasons, I can't know about anything that you tell me. Like totally forget, renounce. Or establish a new Gmail address and send an anonymous tip to the authorities.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  There is no other way. If she tries a third path, she's gonna get burned.

• 25:49Speaker 00

  Ellen takes the lighter side option that you give. Ellen's like, I'm zen, I'm different this year.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  She takes a little CBD gummy and she mutes the notifications on her parent group chat.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Ellen, shout out to you.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  Her little gummy is just kicked in when her younger daughter comes home from school and she's looking a little dejected. And Ellen's immediately like, what's wrong? Are you okay? Her daughter's like, nothing's wrong, it's just this stupid fundraiser we're gonna lose. And Ellen's like, how do you know you're gonna lose? You've got a whole month left. And her daughter sort of sighs and then she's like, mom, do you promise to be chill? And Ellen's like, yes, I told you I'm different now. And so her daughter tells her that the final auction list went out. And the items for sale by class B include not just a private dinner with a Broadway star. They include a wheel of cheese imported from Italy, right from the border, Parmigiano and Reggiano.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  She put that reds on auction.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  They include a private pasta making class by a former chef at Carbone.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  And a broom made by hand from heritage wood worth six hundred dollars.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  Do you think this constitutes cheating?

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course it's cheating.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Ellen's like, this is where I draw the line. She's like, I am the only person allowed to exploit my oldest daughter's labor for personal gain.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Our girl is like, call me Ellen Snowden because I am blowing that whistle.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  She sends a very polite email to the teacher of her daughter's class the next morning outlining her suspicions that Hazel's son had in fact not been involved at all with soliciting the donations. And by the morning after that, all hell has broken loose. The school was able to pretty easily determine that Ellen was telling the truth because Hazel didn't take the operational security course at Girlboss Academy. The school returns all the items Hazel donated after seeing the undeleted track changes made by the interns in Hazel's little donation spreadsheet.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  No. Let me find out Hazel's IT department is bad. She's supposed to be a girl boss.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  Right?

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Upset.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Hazel.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Upset.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Upset.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Let me find out she's doing unsecure bullshit.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  So after the auction, a very strongly worded email sent to every parent of an eighth grade student. And the email basically says that going forward, only money raised by students would count toward the final classroom total. And parents are to limit their involvement to volunteering. Also, auctions are no longer allowed. Do you think this will calm down these rich parents?

• 28:42Speaker 01

  Do I think this will calm them down?

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you think they'll chill out?

• 28:47Speaker 01

  No, they're going to say, first of all, that New York City's social fundraising life is nothing but auctions. You can't raise money without an auction, I think that they would say. Somebody has a parent annoying enough to say that this is discrimination against kids with wealthy parents.

• 29:05Speaker 00

  And you're right.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  And then somebody's going to know immediately, because this is how things happen, that this all happened because one person was upset about one thing. They might not know about Ellen and Hazel and their demented little tango. But they will know that it is about some personal grievance. And that will come up and it will cause a tea party at this school. This is not at all the end of this story.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  Um, Ellen agrees with you. Ellen's like, I don't think this is gonna do too much, but Ellen's like, I got my look back. I engineered my frenemy's downfall yet again, and I am back to the original plan of not getting involved.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Of being cool. Yep, that's right.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Luckily, Ellen's got plenty to keep her occupied because Halloween is fast approaching, and Ellen loves Halloween. And after years of lobbying her co-op board, Ellen has finally landed the Halloween decorating coup of the century. Vincent, have you seen the 12-foot-tall Halloween skeleton?

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Yes, the Halloween skeleton is more and more visible, more and more a part of the life of, um, America as I see it. It's a huge thing.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the 12-foot-tall Halloween skeleton is exactly what it sounds like, which is a freestanding 12-foot-tall skeleton that is used for Halloween decoration. It is sold from Home Depot, according to Business Insider. It is affectionately known as Skelly.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Skelly.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  It costs $299, and it has LED illuminated eyes that follow trick-or-treaters. So for years, Ellen has wanted nothing more than to install a 12-foot-tall skeleton outside her home. And if Ellen lived in the suburbs, this dream could be achieved very simply by purchasing the skeleton. But Ellen lives in the West Village in a co-op that, like most West Village co-ops, has a very involved co-op board. So before Ellen can even purchase a 12-foot-tall skeleton, she has to get approval from her co-op board, which for years she has been unable to do. But this year, Ellen's persistence has finally paid off. In early October, Ellen was given permission to purchase and install not just one,

• 31:13Speaker 00

  but two 12-foot-tall skeletons right in front of her co-op.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  What would you do if you were walking down, like, Christopher Street in the West Village and saw two 12-foot-tall skeletons?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  I mean, the things you can see on Christopher Street, I feel like the 12-foot-tall skeleton is the safe zone.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  That's like the most wholesome thing that's ever happened on Christopher Street, but I would also shriek and delight.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Ellen is filled with joy every time she sees these skeletons. It is better than she has been dreaming of all these years. Every five-year-old in a mile radius becomes obsessed with this co-op. But even better, Ellen's 12-foot-tall skeletons had caught the attention of the coolest person on Ellen's block, Patricia.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Patricia is like old, old money rich. Like, it's giving Gilded Age. It's giving Down Abbey. What this means is that Patricia doesn't give a single fuck what anyone thinks of her. She has been married and divorced three times. And now that her two sons are off at college, people in the neighborhood have seen her on dates with a series of really hot, mostly younger guys. She's notoriously terrible at parallel parking despite being a lifelong New Yorker and will often ask one of her neighbors to come park her car. There are rumors that she grows pot on her roof.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Patricia.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  Ellen's obsessed with her.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  As anyone would have to be.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  And Ellen has heard from her neighbors, who are also obsessed with Patricia, that Patricia's been cited standing and admiring the 12-foot-tall skeletons at least twice in the past week.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 33:17Speaker 00

  Ellen has run into Patricia in front of the 12-foot-tall skeletons herself, but it's only a matter of time. How would you strike up a conversation with your glamorous divorcee stoner neighbor?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I would approach the Madam Mayflower of Christopher Street.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Uh, and say, hey, like, I'd like, yeah, I've always seen you on this blog. What's up? Da, da, da, da. Like, just one of those things like, oh, I see you around. You like the skeleton? And i- if there was an answer to the affirmative, I would say, I would have to take credit is what I would do.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  Like, those are mine. I spent six hundred dollars on those skeletons.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  That's right. And then we would like, start to have a conversation about Halloween. We would just like, we'd just be like, yeah, Halloween's kind of my thing. And then like, um, Patricia sounds like the kind of person who might be into it.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  And then off we, off we go.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is actually really similar to the tactic that Ellen is workshopping. She just doesn't have a chance to deploy it because one night she's coming home from getting ice cream with her daughter. And as they get closer to their block, they see there's like a huge commotion outside their co-op. There's a crowd of people along with two cop cars, which is not normal. And as Ellen gets closer, she sees Patricia's fabulous head of hair among the people in the crowd. Very easily recognizable. It's like seeing Julia Roberts in the wild. Most of the co-op board members are also in the crowd, like, looking pissed. And there are three or four police officers and then two boys sitting on the ground in front of them. And the boys look to be in their late teens or early twenties.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  And lying on the ground in front of them is something that Ellen can't quite make out. Like, from a distance, it kind of looks like a really long version of the cardboard tube that's inside a toilet paper roll. Ellen pushes her way through the little crowd, allegedly because she wants to get into her home. But really, she is being nosey, as I would also be in this situation. And it's not until Ellen is right in front of the co-op that she realizes that the two boys sitting on the ground are Patricia's sons, who are supposed to be away at college. And that the object on the ground in front of them is either a foot long joint or a very convincing replica.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  What kind of true crime shit is happening?

• 35:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, so apparently Patricia had waxed poetic about the 12 foot tall skeletons to her two sons who had taken the train down from Columbia to pull what I have to admit is kind of an iconic prank. They just thought it would be really funny to put a foot long joint into the giant hand of one of the 12 foot tall skeletons.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Oh, hijinks. I like that. This is great. These guys are funny.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, someone had seen them like skulking around the building and called the cops. But luckily or unluckily, depending on how you think about it, the foot long joint is just a prop, so there's no weed in it.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, good, innocent fun.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  So the only real charge possible is trespassing and Ellen convinces her co-op board to not press charges. She's like, I'm the one who bought the skeletons and I'm not offended at all. She's like, honestly, I think it'd be funny to leave the joint. The co-op board does not agree with that last part.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Fair enough.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  But they all know Patricia's family is really influential, so they're like, fine, we won't press charges.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Good. That's two good things in a row that Ellen has done for Patricia.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  As a parent, if your kid did something dumb and potentially criminal, but also a little funny, do you admit to them that it's funny?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%. I, I hope so. I, I hope that I would have the integrity to do that. But yeah, you have to. This is how they get to know you, especially when they're in college. This is now your time to introduce yourself to them as a person.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  So if they did that when they were 11, you'd have to get pretty pissed about it and only let slip your actual feelings much later. But these are, sounds like rambunctious American boys of 19 or 20, and they deserve to know the red blooded truth about their mom, Patricia.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, Patricia seems very chill about the situation, which makes sense for her. She emails Ellen to be like, thank you for being so gracious to my idiot sons. I would love to have you over for a real joint one of these nights.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Everything's coming up, Ellen.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Everything's coming up, Ellen, and it's the final week of the eighth grade fundraiser. And so Ellen's at home and her youngest daughter comes home from school and before Ellen can even say, hi, sweetie, her daughter's like, Mom, you promised it was different this time. And Ellen's got no idea what's going on. She's like, what are you talking about? And her daughter's like, you promised you would be chill. And now Ellen's like a little offended because she has been so chill and it's been so hard. Ellen's like, I was chill. I've been so chill. I haven't sabotaged anyone.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  I haven't sabotaged anyone.

• 38:01Speaker 00

  And internally, she's like, yeah, I ratted out Hazel, but no one knows about that. Do you think Ellen's identity as a whistleblower is safe?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  It was never safe. I just hope this doesn't ruin things with Patricia.

• 38:15Speaker 00

  Well, Ellen's daughter tells her that a couple of kids had seen Patricia stopped by Briarwood the Friday before. She had gone into the administrative offices, which is weird. Like Patricia's sons had gone to Briarwood, but they're in college. They both graduated like at least a year ago. And so Patricia's visit apparently got the rumor mill started. And over the weekend, a possible explanation starts floating around the Briarwood parent group chats. Apparently, there had been some suspicion when the situation with Patricia's sons and Ellen's 12-foot-tall skeletons got smoothed over so quickly. Like, everyone knows how hard Ellen campaigned for those skeletons. And the rumor mill has settled on one explanation.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  Ellen has obviously blackmailed Patricia into donating to her daughter's classroom in exchange for not pressing charges.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  What?

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Or at least that's a story that Ellen's daughter has seemingly heard.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  These people are sick.

• 39:11Speaker 00

  Ellen's horrified. She's like, my love for Patricia is pure. I would never blackmail her.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  I would never bring her into this sordid world of intrigue and lies. Patricia's from the good side.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Ellen's daughter just rolls her eyes and is like, yeah, well, if you blackmailed someone, we at least better win. Class A wants to have the eighth grade party at Topgolf, and Topgolf sucks. Ellen's like, I didn't blackmail anyone. I'm innocent.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  This is a twisted tale.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  Have you ever walked into a room and just kind of known people were talking about you?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, unfortunately, it's the worst. When that happens, you have to call a meeting. You have to just banish the secret immediately. You gotta do like a, and like, clear the air.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is the really bad feeling Ellen gets when she walks into the Briarwood Benefit, which is the last event of the eighth grade fundraiser. It's where the winner is announced, and it is abundantly clear that as soon as Ellen walks in that absolutely everyone has heard this rumor about her. Like, the parents in her daughter's class are all like, good job, Ellen. Like, it really sounds like Patricia has made a donation, but no one knows how much. Meanwhile, the parents in the other classes are all glaring at her, including Hazel, obviously.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  They're nearing the part of the night where they're gonna announce the final totals. And at this point, Ellen has heard this rumor that she has blackmailed Patricia so many times that she's low-key convinced it might be true. Like, everyone else seems so sure.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Ellen obviously knows she didn't blackmail anyone, but she's like, maybe since me and Patricia are buddies now, she really did do me a solid. And for the first time since that year's eighth grade fundraiser started, Ellen allows herself to think, maybe my kid will win. Has Ellen promised herself she wasn't gonna get involved? Yes. But it's too late for that. And against her will, Ellen has been involved, and now Ellen wants to win.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  So she's on the edge of her seat as the principal takes to the stage to read out the final totals. First, the principal reads out the total of the classroom with Hazel's son in it. They raised $15,000. Then it gets so quiet, you can hear a pin drop. And the principal says, Class A has done an incredible job. This is the class that Ellen's daughter is in. The principal says, Class A has raised just over $17,000.

• 41:53Speaker 00

  There are even more gasps, and everyone turns to look at Ellen, who is like, struggling to maintain composure. She's like, I have no idea how to feel. Like, obviously, she's proud because she, well, her daughter had won. But Ellen's also like, my, I mean, my daughter's victory has been tainted by these rumors of blackmail. Like, does this even count if I win and everyone thinks I cheated to do it?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  And it says Ellen is thinking all of this that the principal reads out the total for Class C, the class that no one had really cared about, that no one had ever even suspected might win. Class C has done exceptionally well, the principal says. They've raised $23,000. The principal's like, Class C has won the annual Briarwood eighth grade fundraiser. Let's all give them a round of applause.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  So apparently while Class A and B were surveilling and sabotaging and slinging mud at each other, Class C had kind of just put their heads down and done the work. Like, no one really knows how they did it, but it doesn't really matter. All that mattered is that Class C got to decide the theme of that year's eighth grade party, and they decided to have a lock-in at the Natural History Museum, which, after some grumbling, everyone agreed was at least better than Topgolf.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 43:21Speaker 00

  And that's basically the end of our story. Do you think there are any villains here?

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Any?

• 43:29Speaker 01

  This tale is, is thick with villains. And they're villainy. Hazel, just cheater, liar, daughter appropriator. Need I go on?

• 43:44Speaker 00

  You made me wease.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Ellen, a hater and a snitch.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Although I feel for her, uh, because you and your telling imbued her with such a rich humanity and, uh, her protagonistism really shone through for me.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Petty villainy, really, at the end of the day, but the sons of Patricia, obviously, I mean, literal criminals.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  True.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Uh, trespassers at the very least.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  The daughter, the older daughter. What kind of two-timing? Hussey is-

• 44:17Speaker 00

  No, it's loyalty.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  This heifer, what is she doing? Why is, why is she playing both sides? What's up with her?

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Not Hussey.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, that, that gets me on the wrong side of the straight man thing. I don't know what we should call her.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  No, honestly, bring it back. We don't, we haven't been using Hussey in a while.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  It's like city.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Younger daughter, rude. Mom, you promise, mom, don't freak out. A lot of little shots, little jabs happening from the little smart-mouthed young lady.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  These are all good choices.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  There's no, the only non-villain is Patricia.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  The story is redeemed by the presence of Patricia.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  I don't know why she went to the office.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Well, actually, I have some little postscripts that might answer some questions.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  Um, first, after the dust had settled and the eighth graders had enjoyed their night at the museum, Briarwood called a big student and parent assembly. Um, the administration had felt that the spirit of philanthropy had started to be lost in their annual eighth grade fundraiser. So going forward, classes could only do acts of service and not fundraising.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Wow. Wow.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  And also, one beautiful summer night, Ellen does go smoke a joint up Patricia's roof. She gets the highest she has ever been in her entire life. She's like, Patricia, this is the best weed I've ever had. What's your secret? And Patricia's like, it's the fertilizer up at Briarwood. It's incredible stuff. Apparently, while Patricia's kids were in school, she learned that her weed loved the fertilizer that Briarwood used in their greenhouse, and it could only be bought in bulk. So Patricia just buys a bag or two from the school every so often, which is why the kids have seen her in the administrative office.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Wow, Patricia's still, still batting a thousand for me.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  Patricia's still our favorite in this story.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah. She, she supports local business, local education. She's like, keeping her money in the neighborhood.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  In the neighborhood?

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Buy back the block, et cetera.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, exactly. That's the end of our story.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. That, I just, it's just so stressed out. Uh, it stressed me out a lot because, you know, children are involved, people's reputations are involved. Obviously, Ellen has done some pretty sordid things in the past. And like, any protagonist is trying to make themselves better. And change is so hard and impossible the older we get.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  And, um, that's rough.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Maybe Ellen graduating from CBD to THC will send her on the right path.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. She needs to get high.

• 47:15Speaker 00

  Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at [email protected], or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 Gossip. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip. You can follow me on all social media at HeyDanae, H-E-Y-Y-D-N-A-E. This podcast was produced by Sarah Spragley-Ritz and Jay Tolvier. Thank you to Samantha Gatzic, our audio engineer, and thank you to Danielle Hewitt for your additional production help this season. The co-creators and Dowager Queens of Normal Gossip are Alex Dujong-Lowflin

• 47:58Speaker 00

  and Kelsey McKinney. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defector's business guys. Alex Dujong-Lowflin is Defector's supervising producer. Tom Lay is our editor in chief. Dan McQuade runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Catherine Chu, Brandy Jensen, Louise Peas-Pumar, Chris Thompson, Jasper Wang, Sabrina Embler, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford, and Ray Rado for all your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and remember, you didn't hear this from me.