Linda Perry (Part 1)

GRAMMY-nominated singer, songwriter, producer, and 4 Non Blondes frontwoman Linda Perry joins Norah for Part 1, looking back on the songs, records, and moments that have been part of her journey, with some special, reimagined duets in the mix.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Norah Jones?

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• 2:14Norah Jones?

  This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Linda Perry, part one.

• 2:27Speaker 04

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 2:34Speaker 04

  I'm just playing along with you.

• 2:40Norah Jones?

  Hey, I'm Norah. This is Sarah Oda. Welcome to the show.

• 2:42Speaker 05

  Welcome to the show. Our guest today is singer-songwriter, producer, and Songwriters Hall of Fame inductee,

• 2:49Norah Jones?

  Woo!

• 2:50Speaker 05

  Linda Perry. She broke through as a lead singer and songwriter of four non-blondes before building an equally major career, sort of behind the scenes. And her new album, Let It Die Here, is out now.

• 3:04Norah Jones?

  It's a really beautiful album. And it's the first album she's put out in a very long time.

• 3:08Speaker 05

  On her own.

• 3:08Norah Jones?

  Yes, on her own.

• 3:10Speaker 05

  This is part one of another two-parter, because there's so much great music in here and great conversation. In this part, you guys visit, revisit one of Linda's biggest songs and also take on a cover from a very popular band.

• 3:27Norah Jones?

  Yeah. She's so great. Man, she's great. And she couldn't stop sending me cover ideas, so we just did some extra ones.

• 3:36Speaker 05

  And they were like pretty outside the box.

• 3:38Norah Jones?

  Yeah, and she really made them her own. It was awesome. Yeah, it was fun. She produced me a little. It was awesome.

• 3:46Speaker 05

  That's what she do.

• 3:47Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:48Speaker 05

  Stay tuned.

• 3:49Norah Jones?

  Yep, enjoy the episode. There is some spicy language in this episode, so listener discretion is advised. It's not that bad, but just so you know, it's there.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  Your new album's coming out this week.

• 4:03Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 4:03Speaker 05

  That's really exciting.

• 4:05Speaker 06

  It's actually a surprise to me because I... Surprisingly, a documentary was made and my... I did not... This was not my doing. I, you know, I wasn't, you know, it wasn't coming out of my mouth, "Hey, you know what I should do? Let's put a documentary."

• 4:22Speaker 05

  I know, but some people do do that.

• 4:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. Not my intention at all. And I had scored this film called Citizen Pen. And the director, Don Hardy, we became friends. We had a funny relationship, but we became friends. And he's like, "Hey, you know, I think you're so interesting, your process. Can I come film you for a little bit?" And I'm like, "Sure, whatever, as long as don't bug me." You know, in my mind, Norah, I'm getting like some kind of, you know, content for... Because, you know, I don't stop and go, "Hold on, everybody, I gotta do some content for, you know, social media."

• 4:59Speaker 05

  It's like free content.

• 5:00Speaker 06

  So in my mind, I'm thinking, "Oh, can I use some of that?" You know, and I now, now it's laughable, because I knew he was up to something the whole time. But he looked at me and he kind of laughed. He's like, "Uh, yeah, sure," you know? So shit started happening. Things happened. And as, you know, the universe will throw at you. And he came to me and he's like, "So, you know that stuff I've been filming?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he's like, "Well, I edited 30 minutes." And I'm all, "Yeah?" And then he's like, "And I showed it to some people." And I'm like going, "And my eyes are getting wider." And I'm like, "Yeah?" And he's like, "And we all think there's a documentary here." And I'm like going,

• 5:45Speaker 06

  "I don't want to hear about it. Don't involve me. If I said it, I said it. If I did it, I did it. But don't talk to me about it," you know?

• 5:52Speaker 05

  So you can do it, but I don't want to see it?

• 5:54Speaker 06

  I don't want anything to do with it. You know, and he laughed and he's like, "You know, it's about you." And I'm like, "Don't even talk to me about it," you know? So weirdly, the documentary ended up being about so many things, but the thing that was really about was about how I lost myself in this, being a producer and a songwriter.

• 6:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 06

  I kind of got lost in everybody else's emotion, even though the songs that I'm writing are coming for me.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 06

  But in my mind, it's not. You know, like some kind of, I don't know, I had some kind of denial going on.

• 6:30Speaker 05

  But there's piece... Do you think there's pieces of you in them?

• 6:33Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 6:33Speaker 05

  Yeah, of course.

• 6:34Speaker 06

  There's all of me in it, which is weird. I'm just...

• 6:37Speaker 05

  But you had like a block about it.

• 6:38Speaker 06

  I had a block because I, you know, when I was in Four Non Blondes, I loved the band, it was great. But I didn't, I didn't commit. Like in my mind, it's like, "Well, I'm not... I have so much more to learn. There's so much out there. I gotta evolve." And I didn't feel like I could evolve with the band, and I probably could have. But something told me, "I have to leave." And so I left the band and I stumbled on this producer-songwriter thing. So I did make an album. No, I made an album. I made a solo album, and it completely got shelved. And it was a very, it was called In Flight, very personal record,

• 7:21Speaker 06

  and completely shelved, and I was devastated.

• 7:25Speaker 05

  Like it didn't come out at all?

• 7:27Speaker 06

  You could say it came out.

• 7:29Speaker 05

  Gotcha. They didn't do anything for it?

• 7:30Speaker 06

  They didn't do anything.

• 7:31Speaker 05

  Nobody helped?

• 7:31Speaker 06

  They just shelved it, because it wasn't Four Non Blondes.

• 7:35Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 7:36Speaker 06

  And they were upset that I didn't call it Four Non Blondes.

• 7:39Speaker 05

  Got you.

• 7:40Speaker 06

  And I'm like, "Why would I call this record Four Non Blondes? It's like, it's not." You know, anyways, I got a lot of shit for that, because it would have made their life easier.

• 7:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 06

  So I said, "No, I think I got..."

• 7:53Speaker 05

  You were just on your own path.

• 7:54Speaker 06

  I think I got, you know, shelved because I wasn't listening. So anyways, sorry, a long story, but that really affected me. So when songwriter-producer showed up, I was like, "Oh, great. I can hide behind all these people, and my feelings aren't going to get hurt. Their feelings are going to get hurt, not mine, you know? It's their career."

• 8:15Speaker 05

  Like a self-protective thing?

• 8:16Speaker 06

  Yeah. So I kind of just, you know, you and I, I could write songs all day long with you. I could write songs all day long for you. You know, if I think about you, I think about anybody, I can write a song. But I could not get in to hear.

• 8:38Speaker 05

  For yourself.

• 8:38Speaker 06

  For myself. And so the movie is about that, like how I'm kind of losing my perspective, who I am, my identity, blah, blah, blah. Shit happened, other things happened. And then when I saw the film, they had to literally drag me in to go see the film.

• 8:55Speaker 05

  Did you know that was happening, that that's what it was about? You didn't know that that was happening?

• 8:59Speaker 06

  I didn't know what the film was about at all, you know?

• 9:02Speaker 05

  You went to see it, and that all hit you like a ton of bricks?

• 9:05Speaker 06

  I'm like watching it.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 9:07Speaker 06

  And there's a cup... There's like one scene in there that I filmed myself, that I have no idea even what it was. I just knew something crazy just happened to me. I sent it to the director and I said, "I don't know what this is. I'm erasing it right now. I'm deleting it off of my phone. I don't know if this is something, but I'm sending it to you now, because it's gone. I'm deleting it right now."

• 9:31Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 9:32Speaker 06

  And then seeing that moment on big screen, I was like going... Like, I watched the whole film like this. Anyways, back to the album. The movie inspired the album, because once I saw what the movie was about, I was like... Okay, okay, I get it, you know, and then all of a sudden this album just showed up.

• 9:55Norah Jones?

  It was like you were kind of released.

• 9:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, because it's about my mom. It's about a lot of damage with my mom and I guess how I've been carrying it as an adult and, you know, we do that and don't know why. And I think we kind of forget, you wear it like a suit, you know, and it's just like you forget it's there. And instead of taking the fucking suit off, you just keep, you know, doing shit and carry on and, and the documentary folds into that damage. And then it starts becoming clear, like, oh, I'm so hard on myself. I'm like constantly like I'm never good enough. I never

• 10:36Speaker 06

  think anything like you, I could win a lifetime achievement award yesterday, but today I'll feel like a total loser. I'm not relevant. I'm not doing enough. I'm not working hard enough. Like beat down, you know, the hammer and it's like really hard to watch because I'm like watching this girl like going to, so it's not a fluff piece. It's very embarrassing. It's really honest.

• 11:00Norah Jones?

  It sounds very raw.

• 11:01Speaker 06

  It's very raw. It's not a vanity piece. It's not about how amazing I am at all. And when I saw it and I saw it like, holy shit, I couldn't even, I couldn't even stop it, you know, I couldn't even, you know, I just gave him a hug. I gave a couple little notes on some, you know, you know, tiny little things. And I said, you made a beautiful film. Wow. I can see why you wanted to do this.

• 11:28Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 06

  So I don't even see me in it. I just see a broken person trying to figure shit out.

• 11:34Norah Jones?

  Which is so relatable to everyone, right? Because that's, that's kind of what everyone goes through, different, varying degrees of it.

• 11:44Speaker 06

  You know what this film is? It's, it's what happens to all of us, but we don't film it and let other people see it. It's stuff that we hide.

• 11:53Norah Jones?

  Exactly.

• 11:54Speaker 06

  You know, that's what the film is. And that's what makes it really like scary, you know, it's like, God, if people don't like that and they're putting that down, like I'm in that mode, like where I'm so nervous about releasing a record right now. And I wish I could sit here and say, I don't care, man. I made a body of work that I'm really proud of. And I don't care if anybody hears it. That would be a total lie.

• 12:21Norah Jones?

  But I think it's always a lie.

• 12:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:23Norah Jones?

  When people say that, I've said it.

• 12:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 12:25Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 06

  It would be a lie. I, I do care because I want it. I want some, I want people to relate to it. I want them to just make some kind of awesome comment, like what a great production or, oh, those strings are cool, or that's an interesting perspective. Oh, I know what that's like. Or, you know, I want it to be seen for a body of work, a body of art that was created. Cause it is, it's a pretty record.

• 12:49Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 06

  But it's a lot. It's, it's, it's a lot. It's a long listen.

• 12:54Norah Jones?

  Yeah. People don't have the attention span.

• 12:56Speaker 06

  No, they don't, but.

• 12:57Norah Jones?

  But, but they do if it's worth it. And, you know, I think, I think it's worth it.

• 13:02Speaker 06

  Yeah. I hope so. I, my intention is good, you know, because I never, it wasn't premeditated. I watched this dumb film and I was like, fuck, you know, and then it just.

• 13:13Norah Jones?

  That's amazing.

• 13:14Speaker 06

  It just came out, you know, so there's like heavy songs, but before the, um, um, end of the movie though, I did write one song and I, and I didn't even expect him to film it. I said, hey, I'm gonna go into a rehearsal, because he showed me one clip, you know, it's like edit, it was pretty much done. And, but he was saying, I don't think, think I have an ending yet. And I said, well, I'm gonna go in the rehearsal room I haven't been in in years, you know? And I said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna put a band together and I'm just gonna go rehearse. You're, you're more than welcome to come and film that. And he's like, okay, do you know what you're gonna do? I'm like, no.

• 13:52Norah Jones?

  You hadn't written any of these songs yet?

• 13:53Speaker 06

  Nothing.

• 13:54Norah Jones?

  Okay.

• 13:54Speaker 06

  And I go, no. And, um, he's like, okay. I go, something will happen, you know?

• 13:59Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 06

  And so we're talking, I, so I tell him, I, we're talking the night before and I'm like, I hired a guy at the band. They're gonna show up around 10. He's like, okay. And I said, and I got some strings. And he's all, why did you get strings? Do you know what you're doing? I'm like, no. I go, but I'm just gonna have strings come in. They're coming at 11.

• 14:17Norah Jones?

  That's amazing.

• 14:18Speaker 06

  And then I also have some background singers coming in around 12. And he's like, and you have nothing. I'm like, no. And so hung up.

• 14:26Norah Jones?

  Works well under pressure.

• 14:28Speaker 06

  Whatever. And then around two o'clock in the morning, I, you know, my piano's right next to my bed. So I literally roll out of bed into my piano.

• 14:36Norah Jones?

  The night before?

• 14:37Speaker 06

  Yes. So this is two, two AM.

• 14:39Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 14:40Speaker 06

  And the song showed up, you know? And I was like sobbing. It's all about my mom. And I just, you know, in the morning, I called him on the way in. I'm like, I wrote a song. I, I think it's a pretty song. So I'm writing lyrics. So he's, I walk in, I'm still writing lyrics. He starts filming me right away. Band's at 10. I play the song. They learn it. At 11 o'clock, strings walk in and all of a sudden my focus goes to the strings. Magically had this arrangement, teach it to them. They're done. 12 BVs walk in, teach them the background vocals. And then we just start playing it and he captures that. So it's not over like eight hours. It's like, like four hours. This was all captured and that's how the film ends.

• 15:25Norah Jones?

  That's beautiful.

• 15:26Speaker 06

  And it's so powerful. Like it's so powerful. I'm like watching it like in awe of like what just happened. I got to witness this song just being created, you know? And, and it's just really moving and that was really inspiring. And so that's kind of like how it really took off.

• 15:45Norah Jones?

  That was the beginning.

• 15:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:47Norah Jones?

  And which song was that?

• 15:47Speaker 06

  It was called, it's called What Lies With You.

• 15:50Norah Jones?

  Wow.

• 15:51Speaker 06

  And, um, you know, when I wrote the song and then I record, we played some shows, not a lot. And so I could hear it, you know, live, because I didn't want to record it before playing it. And it was really, really powerful to play. And it felt, I mean, I was crying every time I fucking get to some songs. I'd be, you know, on stage at Mexico, you know, I don't know what that Hera Festival in Mexico. And I'm like sobbing, you know? And I'm like, had to take a moment, you know? And everybody's like, yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 06

  So then I got it into the studio and then I knew how to do it.

• 16:32Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 06

  You know what I mean? And that's the other thing, going back to what we were talking about. People write a song in the studio and then they instantly record it. They don't even take it outside of that, you know? Like you don't really, is that the right key? Is that the right tempo? Are you singing the right melody? Is it even believable that you're, you know, singing this song? So nobody gets that part, like.

• 16:54Norah Jones?

  There's a whole thing where if you, if you play the song first, sometimes it works some stuff out. I used to do that, but I find that I get a more intimate, raw take on it if I don't do that. If I just record it first.

• 17:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:09Norah Jones?

  But I think, you know, there's something to be said for both, both ways. It just depends. But yeah, I usually change the keys.

• 17:16Speaker 06

  Well, we're also talking about, you know, again, this is not a dig on anybody, but real musicianship, you know? Um, most of the kids that are doing that, it's being controlled by producers and tracks and.

• 17:31Norah Jones?

  That's different.

• 17:32Speaker 06

  You know, they walk in and it's like, oh, I got a track for you. And then they don't even know how that's gonna translate live. That's why we have a bunch of artists that lip sync and have all these bells and whistles and stuff. Again, nothing wrong with that. But they didn't even get an opportunity to change the key or slow it down. And when they play live, you don't get that moment where, you know what? I'm not gonna fucking play that song the way it is. I'm gonna change it up.

• 17:59Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 06

  You know, and I think that that's what a great live experience is. And not that people aren't giving great live experiences, but they're giving shows. There is an entertainment. It's like, you know, going to see a premeditated thought.

• 18:13Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 06

  Where that one where it's just kind of like on a whim.

• 18:18Norah Jones?

  You don't know what's gonna happen.

• 18:19Speaker 06

  That, that, that's very rare.

• 18:21Norah Jones?

  That's the very exciting part. I think it happens a lot. It's just the, the, the general, people can do stuff in different ways. They always will, but like it's hard to find when it's that raw. It's like, it's not rising to the top of people's consciousness. Like it's not in the huge pop world. If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers

• 19:06Norah Jones?

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• 20:57Norah Jones?

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• 21:49Norah Jones?

  I'm doing good, thanks. I'm really excited because you sent me all these voice memos of you solo doing the songs that we're gonna do. And damn, now that is like, it's like exactly what you were saying. It's raw and it's different from all these recordings and it was beautiful.

• 22:09Speaker 06

  Oh, thank you.

• 22:10Norah Jones?

  It was really fun to listen to.

• 22:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's what I do. To me, it's those moments where, you know, one of the things I talk about and I mentor a lot and I do a lot of panels with, you know, young, you know, hungry girls that wanna be in the business and I try to just tell them, hey, listen, the best way you could really understand if you wrote a good song or not is just put your fucking voice memo down, push record and play the song.

• 22:40Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 06

  Just like that.

• 22:41Norah Jones?

  That's true.

• 22:41Speaker 06

  And then listen back.

• 22:42Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 06

  And if it's entertaining, if it keeps you and you're like going, oh, then you got something. But if you're missing things left and right and it's like not grabbing your attention, then just reevaluate it. And usually the two things you need to look at is, one, tempo and key. Because tempo and key can, you know, as you know, will change everything, can make everything different.

• 23:04Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 06

  And so I'm used to doing that and people always are shocked that I do that because I'll just send it randomly, you know, like to Norah Jones, here's a raw voice memo of me singing, you know.

• 23:17Norah Jones?

  I wasn't surprised, I was just enjoying it, you know.

• 23:20Speaker 06

  But, thank you, yeah. And then, because I also, I didn't know, you know, me, like I told you earlier, I could, you could put me on the fly and say, hey, I want you to go play a show, you're gonna do a 45-minute show and you're not gonna have one song prepared and you have to make up everything onstage.

• 23:37Norah Jones?

  Oh my god, that sounds like an anxiety dream.

• 23:38Speaker 06

  I literally, I could do that, I could pull it off. I could totally pull that off and I would do it with full confidence. And I used to do that to my band, I had this band when I did the in-flight and I called them Linda Perry and the Free Wheelers.

• 23:52Norah Jones?

  Because it was free wheeling.

• 23:54Speaker 06

  And we would have the whole set planned out and I'd get onstage and I'm like, you know what, I'm feeling like in a country mood and I just like started, you know, like started going off and they're, and they were the kind of band that could just follow and I'm like, we're going country today.

• 24:07Norah Jones?

  That's amazing.

• 24:08Speaker 06

  And the audience would be like, where's what's up? Where's the other stuff? What is this? They would get pissed off at me because I'd just, you know, be free wheeling it and it was super fun because for me, I have to have that level of freedom.

• 24:23Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 24:23Speaker 06

  But I didn't know where you were at, so I was like, well, maybe I should just lay it down so she hears, you know, the ideas and so she can process it that way.

• 24:33Norah Jones?

  I loved it. I mean, I'm pretty adaptable, but it's so helpful when it's clear, you know what I mean?

• 24:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 24:39Norah Jones?

  It never hurts.

• 24:40Speaker 06

  I was, the last one, I mean, I'm happy with our choices or whatever we're gonna do, but the, when I was thinking about the Cars, I was like, oh, I fucking love that song.

• 24:49Norah Jones?

  Well, I fucking love the way you do it, too.

• 24:52Speaker 06

  I capoed it and I was like...

• 24:53Norah Jones?

  I've never heard that song like that and I never thought about it like that.

• 24:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's sadder that way, right?

• 24:58Norah Jones?

  Such a good song. And I knew it was a good song, but it's such a good song.

• 25:02Speaker 06

  I didn't know it either, I was like, I can't...

• 25:04Norah Jones?

  It got really deep.

• 25:05Speaker 06

  Because I was like, you know, at first, I'm like, no, that is like, this make everything sad, you know, like sadder.

• 25:13Norah Jones?

  I love it.

• 25:13Speaker 06

  And so I just capoed it and I'm like, oh, that's good. But so, I mean, I could have kept going, there's so many good songs out there, then I was like, oh wait, we gotta do, you know, this or that. So I was just like, Linda, you cannot send her another fucking voice memo of another song.

• 25:30Norah Jones?

  I loved it.

• 25:31Speaker 06

  So I just like, stop, stop.

• 25:32Norah Jones?

  I loved it, it was great.

• 25:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:34Norah Jones?

  Well, let's do one.

• 25:34Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 29:05Norah Jones?

  Oh my god. This is such a good song.

• 29:09Speaker 06

  Right?

• 29:09Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, it's a great song the way it is, but I loved it when you, when slowing it down like that and...

• 29:15Norah Jones?

  It's almost like a Tom Petty song or something, right?

• 29:17Speaker 06

  It has a cool vibe. I mean, the Cars to me were a great, great band. They, I think they were underrated, but like, great songs, but, and I think that it's fun when you discover songs like that and you change them up and you, oh, there's something, there's a whole other level, you know, there.

• 29:33Norah Jones?

  It was just a great song.

• 29:34Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's just a great song.

• 29:36Norah Jones?

  And then within the Cars version, the production is also insanely great.

• 29:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's amazing.

• 29:41Norah Jones?

  Yeah, but then when you just strip it back and it's still great.

• 29:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 29:44Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 06

  All right.

• 29:45Norah Jones?

  That's the best.

• 29:45Speaker 06

  All right. Now, wait, what's going on with you musically? What's, you have, I'm not up to date on things.

• 29:51Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 29:51Speaker 06

  Do you have an album, what's happening?

• 29:54Norah Jones?

  Yeah, I'm making an album right now.

• 29:55Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 29:56Norah Jones?

  Yeah. I'm doing a lot of different things for the first time. I've been home more. I'm doing a soundtrack to a film, which I've never done.

• 30:05Speaker 06

  Oh, amazing.

• 30:06Norah Jones?

  You were just talking about doing soundtrack.

• 30:08Speaker 06

  Yeah. What are you doing?

• 30:10Norah Jones?

  It's a Katie Holmes movie. She wrote it and directed it. It's beautiful.

• 30:14Speaker 06

  Oh, great.

• 30:14Norah Jones?

  And it was really fun because she asked me to do a song for it, you know, like at the end. And she, and she was like, maybe soundtrack stuff? And I said, well, look, I've never done it, but I would love to try, so it was awesome.

• 30:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, you would be great. So you compose the, did the compositing. You'd be great at that because you're so airy, you have a lot of like space.

• 30:38Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 06

  And that's what's great about, you know, the best scores, it's like having, it's about space.

• 30:45Norah Jones?

  It's actually about space, yeah.

• 30:46Speaker 06

  And really not leading the emotion, but supporting it, you know?

• 30:51Norah Jones?

  Which is an interesting lesson.

• 30:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:54Norah Jones?

  Yeah, I'm working with a great music editor who is placing everything, so I didn't, I kinda was let off the hook with, you know, making it exact placement. So Susanna Parrick, she's great. So that was helpful because I could just be kind of free.

• 31:11Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:11Norah Jones?

  Yeah. Have you done a lot of soundtrack stuff?

• 31:14Speaker 06

  I, I, I mean, I have some on my belt now. I mean, I really enjoy it because I was kind of thrown into it. Like, the funny thing about the Citizen Pen, that was my first...

• 31:28Speaker 06

  Score and it's, you know, the movie is about Sean Penn going into Haiti after the earthquake.

• 31:35Norah Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:36Speaker 06

  And I mean, I mean, that man is incredible. Like he, like Sean is in the trenches. He is pulling bodies out of, you know, the swamps and, and doing, I mean, he's in, it's not some people he put together and, hey, guys, go clean things up.

• 31:55Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 06

  He himself.

• 31:56Norah Jones?

  He's actually doing it all.

• 31:57Speaker 06

  Is doing it. So it's a fascinating film. So he asked me, Dawn asked me to, if I would be interested in scoring. He's like, you know, I think you would be great at it. And what was interesting about that, it's like at my studio, I have this front yard, because I turned my, an old house into a studio. And so I was sitting out there and I'm like, you know, and I always talk to the universe and, you know, and I'm like, I, I want to score. I want to score a film. And so I, this film comes to me. And, um, and it's, you know, so I'm like going, okay, it's in Haiti. You know, I gotta put some Haitian flavors in here, but you know, I'm not Haitian. So I don't know. So I'm just like doing what I would do.

• 32:41Speaker 06

  And I put some percussions and I'm just demoing everything because in my mind, I'm going to bring in, you know, real players.

• 32:49Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 06

  And, you know, and I'm chanting God knows what. I'm just, you know, filling in space, chanting, you know, doing stuff like that in the background. And again, I'm going to bring in real players. Well, then fucking, you know, pandemic hits.

• 33:04Norah Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:05Speaker 06

  He needs the score done. And I'm, he's like, you know, I need the score. And I'm like, but I can't get any players and because we can't bring anybody in. It's like full on, you know, at the time. And I'm like, Dawn, this is me demoing. He's like, it sounds great to me. I'm like, but, but I don't know, I could be saying something really bad in my chants. I don't know. You know, God knows, or God forbid, I'm making up something, you know, and hopefully there's no words in there, you know? So I'm panicked because I'm just like bongo playing, like doing, doing all these crazy things. But there was something interesting about it because I came from that perspective. So anyways, once I understood that, and then there's a freedom, but also you have to be

• 33:49Speaker 06

  very restricting, you know, you have to, what's the word? You have to show a lot of restraint.

• 33:55Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 06

  You know, in scoring. And, um, and so that is what I really dig about. It's like, oh, you really have to pay attention because it's not about me. It's about, you know, supporting this director's visual and making sure I'm not leading, my sad voice isn't leading people down the wrong way, you know? And so I got to pull it back and do a little more major chords and, you know, sometimes just one little note. So I find it.

• 34:22Norah Jones?

  One little note does so much.

• 34:24Speaker 06

  So much. If it's the right note with the right tone, you know, in the right scene.

• 34:28Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 06

  Um, so when you said your, you know, said immediately when you said that, I'm like, oh, that, of course you should be doing that because you're so melodic and, but you do show a lot of restraint, you know? And, um, so yeah, that's awesome. I'm happy for you.

• 34:48Norah Jones?

  Yeah, it's been fun. If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before

• 35:31Norah Jones?

  the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:42Speaker 07

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• 36:57Speaker 02

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• 37:41Speaker 02

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• 38:06Norah Jones?

  But you were talking earlier about scoring another film with the pump organ.

• 38:13Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:13Norah Jones?

  Because you couldn't figure out what other instrument worked and then just all of a sudden the out of tune pump organ was the thing.

• 38:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, because, you know, I think, so this movie's called Too Leslie and it's, it's a, I mean, a powerful film about this woman who's like full on alcoholic. And I mean, it's hard to watch because it's, it's real, you know? And her performance was so amazing and what they captured was so intimate. When they asked me to score it, I'm like going, well, I don't want to touch it. It's like, I don't want to get in the way. And he was like, well, it needs music. And I'm like, okay, you know, so I play acoustic and I was like, uh, strings, uh, everything was, uh, you know?

• 38:59Speaker 06

  And then I was looking as you have this out of tune or your pump organ, I was like looking over.

• 39:05Norah Jones?

  It's out of tune.

• 39:06Speaker 06

  It is. I was looking at my pump organ and I'm like, maybe that will work. So I put the mics on there, put some reverb, some delay. And now the pump organ is far away from my, my, my studio, you know, where the, the TV was. So I just put the audio on and I'm just listening and I'm just like playing.

• 39:34Norah Jones?

  The audio to the film.

• 39:35Speaker 06

  The film.

• 39:35Norah Jones?

  Gotcha.

• 39:36Speaker 06

  Yeah. So I have no film to watch. And I just, I'm listening to her voice. I'm listening to the rain or the cars or whatever, the, the, the natural surroundings. And I just started playing the organ and just very lightly and out of tune. And I was just like going, and then I saw it, you know, then I go in and I watch it and I'm like, oh my God, it's like perfect.

• 39:57Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 06

  It's so delicate. And then he had asked me to put music in a scene. I'm like, no, no, no.

• 40:04Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 06

  It, I, I think the rain is good.

• 40:06Norah Jones?

  The restraint is important.

• 40:08Speaker 06

  Just the rain. The rain is powerful. We're sitting in the rain. Why, what, and you don't want music on that?

• 40:13Norah Jones?

  The rain is enough.

• 40:15Speaker 06

  So I think I had 10 pieces in there, you know? And, and, but then what was funnier was that he didn't have any money for, you know, needle drops. So he's like, can you write a song, you know, a bar scene?

• 40:30Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 06

  And I'm like, yeah. And I'd be like, you know, and I'd sound like some dude, you know, in a bar and I'd write the song. And then he's like, you know, there's, I need a song. I can't afford Loretta Lynn. Is there something you can do? And I'd just write a song, sounds like Loretta Lynn in the background. And so he'd have all these cues that he just couldn't afford, you know? And so I would just write pieces for those spots. There was actually more needle drops, you know, from me writing these songs than there was actually scoring. And then I wrote this, you know, song at the end where, um, you know, Patty Griffin came and sang and it was really beautiful.

• 41:05Norah Jones?

  Amazing.

• 41:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, really beautiful song. So, um, I love scoring.

• 41:09Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 41:10Speaker 06

  I really like it because it helped me, um, I don't know, it helped me understand music a little bit better and how, how important and how manipulative it can be, how it can manipulate a situation.

• 41:26Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 41:27Speaker 06

  And, and how it can just support an emotion and you don't need words, you know? And, um, so I, I love it and I haven't, it's been a while. The last one I did was, um, I scored this, uh, film for Disney and it was a really beautiful film called Out of My Mind. Um, and, um, it was fun. It is, you know, the music was just light and trying to be positive and, um, but it was fun.

• 41:52Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 06

  But I, I kind of miss it. I've been wanting to get back to it.

• 41:55Norah Jones?

  Yeah. I'm into it.

• 41:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 41:57Norah Jones?

  It's cool. I had a similar experience where I couldn't find the right instrument for a minute. And I was trying to not just make it all piano, you know?

• 42:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 42:06Norah Jones?

  But then the piano kind of just worked for a lot of it.

• 42:10Speaker 06

  Right.

• 42:10Norah Jones?

  And I used some pump organ too.

• 42:14Norah Jones?

  It's creepy sounding.

• 42:15Speaker 06

  It is. And it doesn't have to be in tune. It can just be in the background, creating this really creepy tone.

• 42:20Norah Jones?

  It's just got a thick vibe. You don't even have to play much. You just play a simple chord and it's, it's the thing.

• 42:26Speaker 06

  And then mixed in with a little bit of B3 when you throw the B3 out on weird stuff too.

• 42:31Norah Jones?

  That's cool.

• 42:32Speaker 06

  That was working as well, but.

• 42:35Norah Jones?

  And then reverb. Wow. You do so much with reverb.

• 42:38Speaker 06

  Can do so much with reverb. And then humming or those sounds, I'm sure, you know, you do. But just putting those little voices in the background and layering that sounds like, oh, what is that weird little sound? So that's kind of what I do. That's kind of like my sound. And then, but I jump around. I really don't have a style, honestly. I think that's what's been fun about my career. It's like, I can jump.

• 43:03Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 06

  Anywhere because I just love music. I just love music.

• 43:06Norah Jones?

  I get that sense. That's great. That's the best way to be, be free.

• 43:11Speaker 06

  I think that's why I had a hard time with Four Non Blondes at first because when it came to the second record, although the band is phenomenal and I had so much fun, it was like, I don't want to do that again.

• 43:22Norah Jones?

  Well, you don't want to just repeat yourself.

• 43:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't want to do that again. And everybody's like, we got it. Because, you know, What's Up is like a huge song, you know? And, and there's no, there's no beating that, you know? I'm not in my life trying to beat that song.

• 43:35Norah Jones?

  Well, that's, I think that's the thing with the second record. If you have a big success, it, it becomes about maintaining it.

• 43:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:42Norah Jones?

  And I think when you have something like that, it's really hard to even get there again. Or, or it's not, but if you're, if that's the goal.

• 43:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:56Norah Jones?

  Then it, it becomes about something else.

• 43:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then I think that, you know, when you are being told you have to. Now, mind you, at this point, I'm super dark, you know, I'm going dark because I'm a dark person. I go dark. And so I'm like, I want to do Dark Side of the Moon. Pink Floyd was my favorite band. I'm like, I want to go there. So that's the kind of record I wanted to make. And the band was like, well, you know, we got to stay with, you know, What's Up and all these songs. I'm like, but those songs suck, you know? It's just like, What's Up, hands down. There's three songs. There's, there's the song Spaceman, What's Up, and the song Drifting that were amazing songs to me. And the rest were just, I have no emotional tie to it.

• 44:38Speaker 06

  But, but, so I wanted to go do this. They wanted to stay here. And I'm like, I, I knew in my heart that I had a lot of exploring to still do. I still had to evolve as an artist. And everybody thought I was crazy. Like, what do you mean? You know, we sold seven million records. I'm like, the song sold seven million records. And, and I will always cherish that. I mean, a lot of people think I don't like that song. I'm like, are you kidding me? That song gave me a whole new life. And so anyways, to not be able to repeat that and not wanting to, and there's no way I could have.

• 45:12Norah Jones?

  Well, that's the thing that people don't realize, I think, when they're trying to repeat it, and that, that's.

• 45:18Speaker 06

  It just won't happen. I feel that I've repeated it in, in ways that are just different, you know?

• 45:24Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 06

  Just different versions of emotion, you know, because that's all it, you know, it comes from that. But sometimes, I mean, that song is a monster, you know? And when you have that on your belt, and mind you, I wanted to keep that song off the album too.

• 45:38Norah Jones?

  Did you?

• 45:39Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 45:39Norah Jones?

  Why?

• 45:39Speaker 06

  Because I knew it was going to be huge. And so I was.

• 45:42Norah Jones?

  And then you were going to have to keep singing it over and over?

• 45:44Speaker 06

  No, it was because I knew we wouldn't, we wouldn't get past it.

• 45:48Norah Jones?

  Gotcha.

• 45:49Speaker 06

  So I knew the song was going to be bigger than we were. And so I said, I remember we were at the, um, um, The Rainbow. And label, um, manager, the band and A and R, and we were planning things out. And I looked at everybody. I'm like, you know, so I'm thinking we leave What's Up off of this record. And everybody just like, what?

• 46:15Speaker 06

  Why would we do that? I'm like, because it's, you know, and, you know, I'm a kid. I don't know, you know? I'm, I know nothing about the business. I'm like, well, because I think the song is going to be really big. And it's going to be big five years from now. It's going to be big 10 years from now. It's a classic song. And I think that if we put it on the, and I'm like.

• 46:38Norah Jones?

  You said that?

• 46:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I said this, and I said, if, and I think if we put it on the record right now, it's going to outshine us. And, you know, we need to build as a band and we'll put it on the second record and it'll be equally.

• 46:50Norah Jones?

  You weren't thinking never. You were thinking second record.

• 46:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, second record.

• 46:53Norah Jones?

  Yeah, like, give us some time to.

• 46:54Speaker 06

  I said, let's do it for the second record. It's going to be a hit then too. But I think it's going to overshadow who we are as a band and we need some time. It's a big, and I said that. And they all looked at me. It's like, that is the craziest thing that has ever come out of your mouth, Linda. And I'm like.

• 47:11Norah Jones?

  That is so hindsight, the most mature, smart thing you could have said.

• 47:18Speaker 06

  But I knew, I knew the song was going to be just this giant, you know? And so nobody listened to me. And that's exactly what happened. And it's fine, you know? I don't, I'm not mad at it, but I kind of had a gut feeling. My whole career has been based on a series of gut feelings, you know? And so I feel like, you know, I needed to evolve and go explore. And I, and I did. And, you know, now that we're on fucking What's Up, let's just go ahead and I know you wanted to play it.

• 47:48Norah Jones?

  I want to play it so bad. Also, I, I want to just talk about it for a second. I feel like it's bigger now than it even was then, even though it was, it was huge and it's still huge.

• 47:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 47:59Norah Jones?

  My kids know it. Everybody does it. I mean.

• 48:03Speaker 06

  Well, I had that, we had that viral moment.

• 48:05Norah Jones?

  Oh, I don't, I don't know.

• 48:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, there was this TikTok moment. Well, I have seen the pattern of it. Every five years, it seems to blow up again.

• 48:15Norah Jones?

  Like gets rediscovered.

• 48:16Speaker 06

  Here's, here's the reality of it.

• 48:20Speaker 06

  Someone, some dickhead is always fucking something up. And it's one of those songs that it's a rebellion song. It's like, what the fuck is going on, you know? And it's about, you know, a revolution and rebelling and, and doing all this stuff. And it's about, you know, sitting down and looking at the world and having emotions about it. It's like, I do cry.

• 48:41Norah Jones?

  Yes.

• 48:41Speaker 06

  I do cry and, and look at the world and go, what is happening here, you know? And that song came from a very, you know, I was, I was in a very, you know, sad space. And, and not knowing what I'm doing, you know, I had no money. Here's, I have this fucking puppy that somebody gave me. I took it. I don't know why. I couldn't even feed myself. And I have this puppy running around. I think at the time it was Reagan. Pro-choice was, you know, our, our, our rights were being taken away again. Gay, you know, communities were suffering, being beaten, being killed, you know, all this stuff. And I'm like going, what the fuck? And then all of a sudden this, you know, I just started playing it. Like all my songs, they just show up.

• 49:26Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 06

  I don't, I never write a lyric, ever. I never know what I'm going to do. The songs just show up. And I remember consciously being, you know, here. And then I didn't want to change, you know, I didn't want to change the chords. I was like, I'm just going to keep repeating these. But then I put Four Non, I, I, so in end of 25, I went out into my lawn, my studio and like, you know, talking to the universe. And I'm like, you know, and mind you, almost every year or every other year, someone comes, are you going to put Four Non Blondes back together? We could do some stuff, you know, with that. I'm like, no, I don't go back. No, I don't do that, you know?

• 50:11Speaker 06

  So I'm out in my lawn and I'm like going, okay, I can do it. I'm ready. So I, you know, and then I tell my manager Sean in there. And he gets, I think it was like a week or two weeks later, after I said, I want to put the band back together. He gets a call from Bottle Rock offering Four Non Blondes for, you know, to, to play. And then I said, okay, if I do this, that means we're in it. We're back. Because all the other festivals, when they find that out, they're going to call. And basically that's what happened. But then right after Bottle Rock, that viral thing goes on. I'm like, you can't pay for this kind of stuff. It's like just happened. And I was like going, you know,

• 50:53Speaker 06

  I guess the universe is, is speaking like it was meant to happen. And so, but I tell you, I wrote the fucking awesomest record because I told the band, I got a caveat here, or caveat, whatever you want to call it. I'm not playing any of the songs off the album. I'll play What's Up and Train.

• 51:08Norah Jones?

  Okay.

• 51:09Speaker 06

  But no other songs off the album. And they're like going, okay, but what are we going to play? I'm like, I'm going to work on that. And then I just wrote the greatest 90s record. I just, I mean, it just came out and I just wrote a whole record. And that's what we were playing.

• 51:24Norah Jones?

  That's what we played.

• 51:25Speaker 06

  At the festivals. We only played two Four Non Blondes songs and all these new songs. And what was great about that is like, you know, as we were playing, and then I put What's Up in the middle. I didn't use, it was not a finale.

• 51:36Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 06

  I was in there in the middle and everybody was like, are you crazy? They're going to leave. And I'm like, that's exactly what I want to see what happens.

• 51:43Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 06

  If they leave, then we didn't do a good job.

• 51:46Norah Jones?

  You are something.

• 51:47Speaker 06

  Yeah. And so we're playing and I'm watching everybody like they're bouncing around. So I wrote songs too that, okay, where are we? We're in festivals. They got to be easy.

• 51:57Norah Jones?

  You wrote to the occasion.

• 51:58Speaker 06

  We got to be, it's got to be easy choruses. They got to just be able to jump in on the second one, right? So that's the record I wrote. We play What's Up in the middle. Everybody freaks out. And then no one leaves. They stayed. And then we continued with the rest. And then also I was able to see what songs were working. So I would trade out songs. I'd write a new song.

• 52:17Norah Jones?

  Oh, wow. Just as you were out.

• 52:18Speaker 06

  As we were going along. I'm like, okay, here's a new song. This, this one's not working. I can tell.

• 52:23Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Speaker 06

  So anyways, the record's recorded. I got overdubs to do, but.

• 52:28Norah Jones?

  So, so it's a new Four Non Blondes record?

• 52:30Speaker 06

  It's going to be a new Four Non Blondes record. So I'll, I'll release a couple of songs on this side of the year. And it's good. I don't mean to say this because that's not my style, but it is really, really good. It sounds like, I want to call it 1994. It sounds like the second record we would have made in 1994. It sounds like a great, solid 90s record. And it's got the little Linda's, you know, trademark, you know, protest stuff, but it's also dumb and fun.

• 52:59Norah Jones?

  It, it sounds like it all kind of went the way it was supposed to go.

• 53:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 53:03Norah Jones?

  You know?

• 53:04Speaker 06

  And they're great musicians. We've been getting along great and it's been fun. But it's also such a contrast to what I do on my own. Like my record is dark. It's very thoughtful. I mean, it's sad and it's like a lot. And then this record is so opposite. It's like dumb and fun with some, you know, important content, but.

• 53:25Norah Jones?

  But that's, I feel like that's being young and caring about the world. It's like this song, I think the reason the kids like it so much too, is because it is from that perspective of seeing it all from.

• 53:39Speaker 06

  Being a young person. How do you want to do this? You want to take it? No. I want you to sing it for me so bad. Okay, but what are you gonna do? I'll do a verse. Okay, which verse do you want to do? Let me see, oh my god.

• 53:53Speaker 06

  Kind of want to do the first one. Okay, first verse. And then I want you to take it. Okay, I have to start by saying this. When you showed up into the world with your, your music and your incredible voice, I was like, oh my god, I love this woman. And I remember wanting to work with you so bad. And I was talking to somebody and they were like, no, she, she kind of has her family, like her people, you know? And she doesn't really sway off of that. And I'm like, my damn it. And then I was working with somebody that knew you. And she's like, well, I can talk to her. I'm like, no, no, no.

• 54:38Speaker 06

  That will fucking piss her off if I try to go around her people and use friends. And I consciously was like, no. Hilarious. Do not say that or do anything. And then seeing you at the music cares for Dolly and how amazing you were. And so this is a wonderful opportu-- I mean, sitting here and you're gonna sing What's Up With Me. Oh my god. It's I'm having a really, really great moment right now. So I just want you to know that. Me too. And also, I like how you just boosted my confidence to do a good job. Good win. I see you. But also, I, I mean, I grew up loving you and loving this song. So it's really special that you're here and that you said yes to doing this song.

• 55:23Speaker 06

  Yes, well, I would-- I sing this with my kids now. I sang this when I was in high school. So see, you are singing it, okay? Yeah, you know. All right, see, acting like you don't. You're trying to be cool there for a moment. No, I'm not, I'm not trying to be cool. I'm, I'm, I'm just like excited. All right. I'm nervous, nervous, I'm nervous. Well, just sing this the way you sing it with your kids or to your kids. Okay, well, that's the thing is-- It's really hard not to just try to sound like you on this song. Yeah, it's hard for me to sound like me on this song. Extremely, supremely amazing. Oh, thank you. And powerful. So, okay, I'm gonna just try to be me. Just do your thing. Okay.

• 56:20Speaker 06

  Twenty-five years and life is still trying to get up that great big hill of hope

• 56:30Speaker 06

  for a destination.

• 56:35Speaker 06

  I realized quickly when I knew I should that the world was made up of this brotherhood of man

• 56:45Speaker 06

  for whatever that means.

• 56:50Speaker 06

  So I cry sometimes when I'm lying in bed just to get it all out what's in my head. And I'm, I'm feeling a little peculiar.

• 57:05Speaker 06

  So I wake in the morning and I step outside and I take a deep breath and I get real high. And I scream from the top of my lungs, what's going on?

• 57:20Speaker 06

  And I said, hey, yeah, yeah. Hey, yeah, yeah. I said, hey, what's going on?

• 57:35Speaker 06

  And I said, hey, yeah, yeah. Hey, yeah, yeah. I said, hey, what's going on?

• 57:52Speaker 06

  Ooh, ooh. Mm-hmm.

• 58:06Speaker 06

  And I try.

• 58:09Speaker 06

  Oh my god, do I try. I try all the time in this institution.

• 58:21Speaker 06

  And I pray. Oh my god, do I pray? I pray every single day for revolution. And so I cry sometimes when I'm lying in bed just to get it all out what's in my head. And I'm, and I'm feeling a little peculiar.

• 58:50Speaker 06

  And so I wake in the morning and I step outside and I take a deep breath and I get real high. And I scream from the top of my lungs, what's going on?

• 59:04Speaker 06

  And I said, hey, yeah, yeah. Hey, yeah, yeah. I said, hey, what's going on? And I said, hey, yeah, yeah. Hey, yeah, yeah. I said, hey, what's going on?

• 59:33Speaker 06

  And I said, hey, hey, hey. I step outside. I said, hey. Take a deep breath and I get real high. I said, hey, what's going on?

• 59:48Speaker 06

  And I said, hey. Wake up in the morning and I step outside. I said, hey. Take a deep breath and I get real high. I said, hey, what's going on? Yeah.

• 1:00:19Speaker 06

  Twenty-five years and my life is still trying to get up that great big hill of hope

• 1:00:29Speaker 06

  for a destination.

• 1:00:39Speaker 06

  Oh my god. Thank you for that. You are welcome. How many people have you sung that with?

• 1:00:48Speaker 06

  Everyone. I know, no, I've sung that-- So many people. With Pink one time.

• 1:00:57Speaker 06

  I haven't sung it with a bunch of people. I sang it with Dolly. I was gonna say, did you get to sing it with her? I know she recorded it. Well, I sang backgrounds. Okay. So, yeah, that was like-- That must have been amazing. Fucking Dolly Parton. So we, we, we, we had a good little friendship going on because I scored this film, Dumblin'. Oh, okay. Yeah, and that's how we met. And, I mean, I have to tell you the story because it's pretty, it's one of my, you know,

• 1:01:29Speaker 06

  one of those things. So I get called like to write a song with Dolly. And I'm like, fuck yes. You kidding me? Incredible. I haven't pitched it to them yet. Oh. And I'm like going, dude. Way to do, do like a, you might get let way down. I'm like, what? And he's like, but I think they're gonna go for it, you know? But there's somebody else that I want to look at. And, you know, I just wanted, you know, to see if you would be interested. And I'm like, of course I'm interested. And I said, I'll tell you right now, no one is gonna do a better job than I am going to do. You know, I said, I want this so bad, I'll do anything.

• 1:02:10Speaker 06

  He's like, well, I have other ideas because I'm thinking of taking some of her old songs and kind of weaving it through the movie. And like, so I'd have to get re-recordings of these. I'm like, I'm your person, I'm the person. Yeah, me, me, me. They want me to check out somebody else, but I just instinctively think you're the right person. Anyways, I'm like going, Jesus, fucking, how do you lead with that and then take it away from me? Right? And so he calls me back like maybe two, three weeks later. And he's like, I'm gonna take a chance on you. They want the other person, but I, I think you're the person. And I already talked to Dolly and her people and they're in. He's like, so right now it's just one song. And I'm like going, I'll take it. I go, but I want you to know I'm going for a whole album, you know? And he started laughing.

• 1:02:55Speaker 06

  He's like, hey, if you can make that happen, we would love it, right? So I'm like going in, I'm like, okay. So first thing I have to do is re-record some of these songs. So I re-record, you know, massive songs and send it to her. In a different way? In a different way, yeah. And, but she, you know, so I go, and now I'm going to Nashville and I see her. She comes out, she's like, oh my god. I thought when they said Linda Perry's gonna do these songs, I, I thought, oh no, okay, well, she's gonna pop them out and do all that thing. And I was gonna play along with it, but oh my god, when I heard these songs, I sat and I spin around the chair. I was like, holy Jesus, this is amazing, you know?

• 1:03:38Speaker 06

  And I'm like going, you know, I'm still in shock that, you know, Dolly Parton's right there. So we start, you know, working together. And she's like, so you, we're gonna write a song, I guess, tomorrow or something like that? Oh no, we're gonna write five songs. And she's like, excuse me? She's like, you know, I haven't written a song in a long time. And I haven't written a song with a stranger in a long time either. And, and let alone a woman. She's never worked with a woman before. I'm like-- Really? I said, okay, well, it's all gonna be good. We're gonna start with one and move on from there. And then we go into her hacienda writing and we write three songs. Amazing. In one, like, in, within like maybe two hours.

• 1:04:21Speaker 06

  And then she was like, okay, all right. And then she's, I'm sitting there, she's like, you're weird. And I'm like, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, okay, is that a good-- And then she's like, but mind you, I like weird.

• 1:04:37Speaker 06

  So then the next day, we write three more songs. And so then I just took some of the other songs that I redid and put it on the album. So she's half the album is all new. Why I'm telling you this story, I can't remember.

• 1:04:48Norah Jones?

  Because it's an amazing story.

• 1:04:50Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, because, all right, okay, yeah. And then that's how we became friends. And then she sends me over this version of What's Up.

• 1:04:56Norah Jones?

  Oh, you didn't know she was doing it?

• 1:04:58Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:04:58Norah Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:04:58Speaker 06

  I didn't know. And she's like, sends me, and she's like, I changed a couple lyrics. I can't say I'm 25, you know, because I'm not, and you know? And she's like, so if you don't mind, I changed a couple of words, but I'd like to put this on my album. And I'd like for you to, you know, put some guitar and sing backgrounds. I'm like, of course. And then she asked me to be in the video. I'm like, so it really is you, Pink, Dolly Parton, and I think there's one other person, but I don't know who it was.

• 1:05:25Norah Jones?

  I thought it was more.

• 1:05:26Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:05:26Norah Jones?

  Well, I'm very honored.

• 1:05:27Speaker 06

  No, no, I don't, I don't, I don't do it. You know, I mean, I do it.

• 1:05:31Norah Jones?

  I've seen Lady Gaga do it, like on her big shows.

• 1:05:34Speaker 06

  She did it, yeah. There's a lot of people who have covered it.

• 1:05:36Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:37Speaker 06

  But she, um, yeah, because I did a, um, presentation for her and she did that. Or I guess it was opposite. I was getting something and she did the song. But, um, yeah, a lot of covers.

• 1:05:49Norah Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Speaker 06

  A lot of covers, but I haven't been on many. So this is great for me. Thank you.

• 1:05:54Norah Jones?

  Oh, my God. Thank you so much.

• 1:05:55Speaker 06

  It's me thanking you.

• 1:05:56Norah Jones?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:05:57Speaker 06

  Of course.

• 1:05:58Norah Jones?

  Yes. If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment

• 1:06:42Norah Jones?

  that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:06:54Speaker 07

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• 1:08:00Norah Jones?

  I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with Dr. Laura Jayhai of Cleveland Clinic about how advanced computing is helping shorten the path from medical discovery to treatment.

• 1:08:13Speaker 05

  The moment that there is a compound that someone in a lab thinks it would be effective to treat a certain disease, it takes about 10 to 13 years from that moment to when that drug is on a shelf for a patient. A big part of that gap could be computationally solved. Better simulation of compounds, designing drug trials that are more efficient, that would finish faster. That was the motivation to bring computational tools and technology closer to biomedical researchers.

• 1:08:47Norah Jones?

  Learn more about how Cleveland Clinic and IBM are using AI and quantum computing to revolutionize biomedical research at ibm.com/smarttalks. Thanks for listening. That was so fun. And please tune in next week for part two of this special episode. The songs we played in this episode, first one was by The Cars from The Cars self-titled album that came out in 1978. The song is "Just What I Needed." "Just What I Needed." The second song we did was Linda's classic song that everybody knows, "What's Up?" from Four Non Blondes, their album Bigger, Better, Faster, More, 1992 release. Special thanks to Linda Perry for joining us today.

• 1:09:32Norah Jones?

  And we'll be back next week with part two of this episode. Nora Jones is playing along as a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Norah Jones. This episode was recorded by Matt Maronelli. Mixed and additional recording by Jamie Landry. Audio post-production and mastering by Jamie Landry. Artwork by Eliza Fry. Photography by Sherwin Lanaz. Produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda. Executive producers Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runtog. Marketing lead, Alison Cantor-Graeber.

• 1:10:04Speaker 04

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla Sedan with the latest features and tech, or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:10:45Norah Jones?

  If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed. And this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 1:11:55Norah Jones?

  What's that?

• 1:11:55Speaker 04

  My fresh detector.

• 1:11:57Norah Jones?

  Uh, your what? There it is. What is it detecting? Fresh produce, fresh meat. Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 1:12:09Speaker 04

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• 1:12:21Norah Jones?

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