Finneas

FINNEAS joins Norah to talk about the organic beginnings that helped shape his remarkable career, from his own solo music to his lifelong creative partnership with his sister Billie Eilish.

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• 1:34Speaker 00

  This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Phineas.

• 1:58Speaker 00

  Hey, I'm Nora. This is Sarah Oden.

• 2:00Speaker 05

  Hi. Welcome to our show. Today, we have the Grammy, Oscar, and Golden Globe-winning singer-songwriter-producer- and composer Phineas. He's the creative force behind his own highly acclaimed solo music. He's written and produced for various artists. And he's a longtime collaborator with Billie Eilish, his sister. Among the many projects he's taken on his career, he has also composed the entirely original score for season two of the Netflix series Beef, which is streaming now. So be sure to check that out. It's so good.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  It's so good. It's really awesome, because I've been getting into sort of ambient music lately, you know, the genre, which I didn't even know was a thing until recently. But it's so cool. It's all synthesizers and it's-

• 2:47Speaker 05

  Well, you're kind of a synth head.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:51Speaker 05

  Well, you were in a synth group, weren't you?

• 2:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know. I like synthesizers. I just don't know how to work the knobs.

• 2:57Speaker 05

  You can... That's what she said.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  But it's pretty grat- It's pretty great, though. It's a great soundtrack. I love the show, too.

• 3:09Speaker 05

  You're gonna hear about how to make a cover song your own, the organic beginning and sort of predestined story behind one of his most popular songs that he wrote. And you're gonna hear about something that, surprisingly, we're not dreaming about. Plus, you'll hear Nora and Phineas play songs together in ways that you have never heard before.

• 3:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was really fun. He's such an incredible musician. He really is.

• 3:35Speaker 05

  I love that, like, from his bedroom to probably the biggest stages in the world to hear.

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was awesome.

• 3:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's incredible.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  He's really great, and we had so much fun. He's really fun to talk to, and he has great things to say. So I think you're gonna enjoy the episode.

• 3:52Speaker 05

  Here is Phineas.

• 3:54Speaker 06

  Do you have a least favorite part of doing these? Or do you have a favorite part? Like, obviously, you start doing it and you think like, "Oh, this is my good idea. I love it."

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 4:02Speaker 06

  But have you come to loathe any part of this?

• 4:05Speaker 00

  My least favorite part is the reach out, because I feel like I either say too much, which I did with you, and I know it, and I'm owning it.

• 4:14Speaker 06

  How so?

• 4:15Speaker 00

  Well, so you know when you text someone, but you don't know them?

• 4:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  So, you know, you want to edit yourself so you're not over texting or saying too many words. And I'm always like, "We can jump on the phone, whatever you want." But I try to give the spiel so that it's all in one place and not multiple things. And so that's always hard for me. Like, finding the right words, being excited, but not, you know, a teenager about it, not using too many exclamation points. And then, probably my favorite thing about doing this has been other people's cover choices or the way we do them. And, you know, you always want to learn a song really well if you're going to cover it, even like your song

• 4:57Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  that we picked today. I want to learn it really well. But I also just kind of want to do our own version of it. And it's been fun seeing what people pick for covers and kind of just having little versions.

• 5:09Speaker 06

  What's your, you know, what is your relationship in general to covers?

• 5:14Speaker 00

  I started out as a jazz singer, and I did not write songs. So it was kind of all I did. And then, my first album, I sang songs by my good friend Jesse Harris. And I wrote like two songs on my first album only, because I was just new at songwriting. And now, it's harder for me.

• 5:34Speaker 06

  To cover?

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. I used to be able to own a song, you know? Like, you have to kind of own it like you wrote it. And now, I certainly, songs I love, I can cover. And I love finding something that fits in my set really well. But I feel closer now to songs I've written. I even feel closer to songs I've written now than the stuff on my first album that I didn't write, even though I love, you know, I love them, but...

• 5:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, it comes from you.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. What about you?

• 6:02Speaker 06

  I started writing so quickly upon learning anything on a piano that one of my real sort of inabilities is like to jam. You know what I mean?

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 6:15Speaker 06

  I have a good ear, but especially on guitar or something like, you know, there's like... People that do what I do like know all the riffs. They know all the standard riffs.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you don't need those.

• 6:27Speaker 06

  No, I mean, I haven't, but it is a funny. It is a funny thing. I was somewhere recently and everybody was just kind of jamming. And I can, I can sort of plunk along, but you know, when you fall into a song and everyone's like, oh, classic. And I was like, I don't really know this. And it's actually propelled me to like, buy some songbooks and like, you know, just for my own sort of enrichment of like, learning,

• 6:52Speaker 06

  you know, progressions that I'm unfamiliar with, or how to play a song I've always loved, but never sat and learned.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  That's cool. That's, I mean, that's the only way to get better, right?

• 7:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I really kind of only am good at playing my songs. So I can't really sit and crush a, a song.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  I bet you can. You just, I think you just have to figure out a way in.

• 7:14Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  To do it your own way.

• 7:15Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  But who wants to hear a copy of a song?

• 7:18Speaker 06

  Well.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 7:19Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 7:21Speaker 06

  And I thought that about, I actually thought when you said Kathy's song, I thought, I thought, oh, cool. That's one of the songs I know less well than Only Living Boy in New York or something. And then I thought, it's probably better for me to do this than to like trot, than to sort of think like, I really know.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  I really know.

• 7:39Speaker 06

  This song. And you're like, yeah, but so did Paul Simon.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:42Speaker 06

  Know this song.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 7:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's true. And the covers, we all, I mean, like, my relationship with covers as a listener was like, I was an American Idol watcher.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 7:52Speaker 06

  And that's all covers.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  But that's a very, that's totally, yeah.

• 7:56Speaker 06

  But the most interesting ones are the most interesting covers, you know?

• 8:00Speaker 00

  And the different, the ones that are a little different.

• 8:02Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly. The twist.

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 06

  So like, you know, the, the singer named David Cook won one year and he kind of won off of a, Michael Jackson, he won off of a Billie Jean, Chris Cornell cover. Like, he was like.

• 8:17Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 8:18Speaker 06

  I'm doing the Chris Cornell version.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:20Speaker 06

  Of this Michael Jackson song. And then Adam Lambert played the Gary Jewels version of the Tears for Fears song, Mad World. Like, it's a funny, like.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  Perfect, yeah.

• 8:30Speaker 06

  These twists of, you know, again, it's like if Chris Cornell had been like, you know.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  You don't want to see a Michael Jackson.

• 8:38Speaker 06

  Do you want to hear Chris Cornell be like, I wrote Billie Jean.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 8:41Speaker 06

  I'm singing it as if I wrote it.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  Yes, that's what you want. Absolutely. That's kind of what you have to do. And I think, you know. That's something that you can only do well if you truly love the song.

• 8:55Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  It doesn't mean that you're good at it across the board. You have to really connect with the song.

• 8:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, you, you know, your first album, you sing everything like you wrote it. You know what I mean? You have internalized it and are conveying, your performance of it is, has authorship.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I feel, I feel like I, you know, I felt inside those songs at the time. I was also more used to doing that at the time.

• 9:19Speaker 06

  And everybody, and again, as a listener, especially when I was, you know, first hearing that album and younger and knew less about the songwriting world, the assumption is like, this person wrote all these.

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 9:30Speaker 06

  So, I mean, you know, your assumption, growing up, is it's, this is a funny part of it, right? Your assumption when you listen to the Spice Girls or Hanson or something is that they all wrote all of this, you know what I mean?

• 9:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, you have no idea.

• 9:43Speaker 06

  Sometimes it's actually, I mean, Hanson probably did write their song and the Jonas Brothers did, but you know what I mean? Sometimes you'll hear like six people on a song and think, they all wrote it?

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 9:52Speaker 06

  Maybe.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:54Speaker 06

  Or one of them did, or nobody did, or whatever.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, but when you're covering a song, you don't want to feel like you're doing karaoke, like, nothing wrong with karaoke, but.

• 10:02Speaker 06

  No, yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  You want to feel more life in it.

• 10:06Speaker 06

  A hundred percent.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  So I, I was at a karaoke bar the other night, hadn't been in like 20 years.

• 10:11Speaker 06

  Did you get asked to go up?

• 10:14Speaker 00

  I got asked, but I was also very excited because the one song I wanted to do so bad was Rum Tum Tugger from Cats.

• 10:23Speaker 06

  Cool.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Obviously, not a song I'm gonna put in my set. So that was the one exception. I really just tried to sound like the Rum Tum Tugger.

• 10:30Speaker 06

  Like in a vocal inflection-y way?

• 10:33Speaker 00

  I mean, I had that album, I wore that album, I wore that cassette out when I was 10, so I, yeah, I did my best impression.

• 10:41Speaker 06

  Andrew Lloyd Webber is very good.

• 10:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 10:43Speaker 06

  Phantom of the Opera, growing up, Phantom of the Opera and Sweeney Todd were super, super important to me.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 10:49Speaker 06

  I loved those.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  For me, it was Phantom and Cats.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  Well, Cats is great.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Specifically Cats.

• 10:55Speaker 06

  You're like, you're like, I don't really. Phantom's fine. Cats is the one.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  No, both. I know both pretty well. Well, actually, I went to see Cats for the first time when I was seven. And then I went back when it came to Dallas when I was nine. And my mom couldn't stop me. I wanted to dress like a cat.

• 11:13Speaker 06

  Like in the auditorium?

• 11:14Speaker 00

  I had on a full bodysuit that was zebra print. And I put makeup on and like I tattered my cape to look like Grisabella. And I put it on and she really tried to talk me out of it, but I did it. So that's one thing that happens.

• 11:31Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, God bless. I think about, I don't know. I think we have a weird, a weird kind of like, we grow up. We have so many repeated experiences. And we start comparing stuff to things that were part of our formative experiences. And you're like, that's fine, but also that was your formative experience. Of course you love that in an intrinsic way.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  I love it so much.

• 11:56Speaker 06

  That when you hear something that reminds you of it, it's all, you know what I mean? I was hearing a couple of artists recently that kind of reminded me of artists from the early aughts. And I was sort of complaining about that. And my friend was like, yeah, but a 13 year old didn't live through the early aughts, didn't have that relationship with those songs. Like this is gonna be there.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:20Speaker 06

  You know, I mean, here's a, and the best example I could give is like, I went and saw a bunch of Ravel last year. And one of the Ravel symphonies, pieces, movements I saw, I was like, this is the overture of Sweeney Todd. Like he just lifted this Ravel thing.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 12:38Speaker 06

  And I was like, what the fuck? And I was sitting in the audience like Googling like Sondheim, Ravel.

• 12:43Speaker 00

  To confirm that you're right.

• 12:44Speaker 06

  Well, I just was like, this is like the like, I was like, this is the same thing. And, and of course, you know, Sondheim probably to avoid. Whatever you're avoiding was like, yeah, yeah, I love Revel.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:59Speaker 06

  Sure, this is, this is a Revel.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  It's a copy.

• 13:02Speaker 06

  It's a cover.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  I gotta, I gotta check that out.

• 13:04Speaker 06

  I was pretty shocked, but again, the point I'm making is, does that now make the Ballad of Sweeney Todd less important to me? Especially no, because I grew up with that, but it's also interesting to, if you were a Revel head and then you heard Sweeney Todd, you'd be like, oh, this is just-

• 13:21Speaker 00

  You heard Sweeney Todd first.

• 13:22Speaker 06

  Recycled. Exactly. That's what I'm pointing there, like, this is recycled Revel.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 06

  And I'm like, just sort of inspired by both, I guess.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  And you probably love Revel.

• 13:31Speaker 06

  More. Because I liked Sweeney Todd.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  You already liked that.

• 13:35Speaker 06

  Because it felt more, the groove in my brain is deeper.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  It's worn.

• 13:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, you want to try a song?

• 13:43Speaker 06

  Let's try it.

• 13:44Speaker 00

  Do you want to start with Kathy's or you want to start with Die Alone?

• 13:48Speaker 06

  Why don't we warm into Kathy's? We'll do, we'll do Die Alone first, I think.

• 13:52Speaker 00

  I really love this song.

• 13:53Speaker 06

  Thanks so much.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  This, this, this is like an older song, right?

• 13:56Speaker 06

  This is a much older song.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 06

  I wrote this song in a green room in, are you from Texas originally?

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Dallas.

• 14:04Speaker 06

  I wrote this, I think, in a green room.

• 14:10Speaker 06

  Honestly, it's either Dallas or like El Paso.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 14:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, we were on a tour in 2018. I'd just started dating the person that I am now engaged to.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  Oh, awesome.

• 14:23Speaker 06

  So it was years ago, but at the beginning of this same relationship. And I was opening for those shows.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 14:31Speaker 06

  And that was-

• 14:32Speaker 00

  Billy's shows.

• 14:33Speaker 06

  For Billy's shows. I was also in her band.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  You were in her band too, so you were working hard.

• 14:37Speaker 06

  Two for the price of one.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  That's a lot.

• 14:39Speaker 06

  It actually was really hard. And I've done a lot of it. I've also done like an early set at a music festival the same day as playing the headline set with Billy and like- I'm very grateful for A, the opportunity, the, you know, the audience that is coming to see Billy, whose music is popular, and my music, which is less popular. I'm grateful for all of it. But it was, I sort of have moved away from doing both to try to make either one better.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  Well, it's something you only want to do when you're very young and have the energy probably.

• 15:09Speaker 06

  Well, yes. And again, it's like something where you think, you're always, my, part of my naivete is that I, that I will, that it won't suffer because I have the stamina. And I think ultimately, then I would do a show with her where I wasn't opening, I'd think, I was better. Like, I did a better job at this than I did when I was opening.

• 15:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good lesson, just for everything.

• 15:32Speaker 06

  But it's probably like-

• 15:32Speaker 00

  My own daily life.

• 15:35Speaker 06

  If I'm a little less worn out, I'll do a better job.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 06

  But I assume that, you know, The Beatles are grateful for Hamburg, and they also probably wouldn't want to do it, you know, he's like 80, I don't think he'd want to do it right now.

• 15:47Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 15:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  What's Hamburg? I'm, I'm Beatle illiterate.

• 15:52Speaker 06

  Really?

• 15:53Speaker 00

  A little bit.

• 15:54Speaker 06

  The Hamburg was where they played something like 10 hours a night in a nightclub.

• 15:59Speaker 00

  Oh, got you.

• 16:00Speaker 06

  It's their sort of famous 10,000 hours, like, they went off to play as the bar band. And, you know, Germany is like famous for clubs being open all night. So they'd play from whatever, like 8:00 PM to 7:00 in the morning or something.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  That's great. That's like the best practice ever.

• 16:17Speaker 06

  They came back to Liverpool like really tight, I think, from their crazy amount of hours.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Well, I think those gigs are the most important, in a way. I had a gig like that. Definitely not like that.

• 16:27Speaker 06

  What kind of gig?

• 16:28Speaker 00

  It was a piano restaurant gig, but it was where I learned how to sing and play at the same time, because-

• 16:33Speaker 06

  And be talked over.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, talked over was key, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to just mess up and do it. You know, I messed up constantly.

• 16:45Speaker 06

  You mess up, you you learn. I also think you learn when you're being talked over, which things will sort of inherently like pierce through.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:54Speaker 06

  Where you're like, I'm being talked over, but this moment of my set this night, they will stop for a second because of whatever it is, the frequency or the

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 06

  fervency, which I think is very valuable.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, occasionally, one person would clap. And then the entire restaurant would look up and like slowly the clap would spread.

• 17:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 00

  But it was kind of a sad clap, you know, but also sweet, so.

• 17:17Speaker 06

  I did a couple gigs recently, one where I was certain I would be talked over and I was not. And I was pretty thrown off by it. I did a couple kind of like, you know, you get hired to be like the entertainment in a party.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Like a private, yeah.

• 17:32Speaker 06

  Yeah. And it was like, I just was like, yeah, I'm gonna get talked over and that's fine. And I made a joke about it when I walked out. And then I did another one where I was like.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  You probably ensured that you wouldn't by making the joke.

• 17:43Speaker 06

  Yeah. And then I did another one where I was really talked over and I like, it was actually so loud, I was like, I could barely hear myself. And I was like, oh, I'm so glad I used to do this all the time.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 06

  Because if I don't, you know what I mean? If I'd never done this, I would, I'd be like having a panic attack right now. But I was just like, oh, it's one of these. And also, we've been, you know, I've, you go to something in New York or LA and there's somebody, sometimes it's like a person you really have heard of.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  Or love.

• 18:15Speaker 06

  And they're off and between them and you is a thousand people having networking or whatever.

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 06

  And I am like, holy shit. Like, there's nothing, there's nothing anyone can do. It's like, you know.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  No, it happens.

• 18:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's really tough. Environment dictates.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Exactly. Well, I'm not gonna talk over this.

• 18:32Speaker 06

  You can if you want.

• 18:35Speaker 06

  Let's do it.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Okay, cool.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  I wasn't looking for you, but you found me. You found me. Just as the smoke fill the room

• 19:14Speaker 00

  in the valley. You asked me, "Do you wanna die alone?" Watch it all burn down together. I said I'd rather try to hold on to you forever.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  'Cause I know that I will love you.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  And I'm not letting go.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  If the sky darkens above you,

• 20:09Speaker 06

  I'll stay by your side in the afterglow.

• 20:34Speaker 06

  This piano plays great.

• 20:41Speaker 07

  This was the place I grew up Now it's ashes To ashes Memories fill in my cup Comes in flashes But when it passes and I see your eyes I know There's nothing I'll ever find better I think I'd rather die Alone Together

• 21:20Speaker 07

  Cause I Know that I love you

• 21:30Speaker 07

  And I I'm not letting go

• 21:40Speaker 07

  If the sky Darkens above you I'll stay by your side In the afterglow

• 22:40Speaker 07

  I wasn't looking for you But you found me

• 22:50Speaker 06

  So fun. I love your voice so much.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Oh, that was so pretty.

• 22:53Speaker 06

  This is a real Make-A-Wish situation you have going on here for your podcast guests. This is really fun.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Well, same here. I'm a really huge fan and just to hear you play, you do have such a special touch on the piano.

• 23:07Speaker 06

  It's very sweet of you to say.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  It's really beautiful.

• 23:09Speaker 06

  This is a very fun piano to play. Sometimes you get into people's studios and they have a thing that you, it's funny, you sit and you think, oh, this is an interesting instrument.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:19Speaker 06

  But they're gonna, they're so much better than me, but this is such a, this is a friendly piano.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  It's beautiful. And she's got nice legs. Check 'em out.

• 23:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's actually very beautiful.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  They're really pretty.

• 23:30Speaker 06

  It's mysterious how you got it down in here.

• 23:32Speaker 00

  I grew it. No, somebody asked me once if I grew it. But that was so beautiful. I love that song. It's so pretty. Yeah.

• 23:41Speaker 06

  That's, I'm so excited that you picked it because it's just one of the things that I, you know, I was promoting it a long time ago and so I don't get the, you know, if I'm doing two songs on a show.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, you don't pick an old song.

• 23:57Speaker 06

  The label doesn't go like, do that thing from...

• 23:59Speaker 00

  Do that old ballad.

• 24:00Speaker 06

  The EP before you signed here.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  It's just really beautiful and...

• 24:04Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  I get the feeling, you said it was a dressing room song. Was it kind of a quickie?

• 24:09Speaker 06

  Of course.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, the best ones, I think.

• 24:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was during one of the fires, like, you know, it was in LA.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  I had a feeling.

• 24:17Speaker 06

  It was during some, some period where some part of California was burning down. I think Simi Valley and like Sunland was on fire or something, but I don't know, those are such, I assume, I assume like anything, anywhere, like that, nothing connects you to where you live other, like something bad happening.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, like 9/11.

• 24:41Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  When I was living here, when that happened.

• 24:44Speaker 06

  Right.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  It felt very, yeah, I'm sure.

• 24:46Speaker 06

  And the idea of leaving, I don't know, like I was not, when, when LA really burned a year ago, a year and a half ago, I was in Australia. And I really wanted to go home.

• 24:59Speaker 00

  You wanted to be with everyone.

• 25:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, and I think that that, I think that's awesome. And I also thought, I remember thinking, because it was unclear, it was three or four days of that. It was like, and I live in an area near hills where I was like, oh, like, my house could totally burn. And it didn't. And I remember thinking, like, if it doesn't burn, then we have to lock in. We have to really be here.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 06

  Because, you know what I mean?

• 25:23Speaker 00

  To just support.

• 25:24Speaker 06

  It is like a very similar, sort of, galvanizing thing to, I feel like, what I saw a lot of people do after nine eleven, which is like,

• 25:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, they either left.

• 25:32Speaker 06

  Not leaving.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  Or they stay.

• 25:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 06

  Or covid, or whatever it is. I'm gonna stay in this place.

• 25:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 06

  Which I think is very beautiful and.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  And you grew up in LA.

• 25:43Speaker 06

  I grew up in LA.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  You are very LA. Like, it's your home. I know this about you.

• 25:48Speaker 06

  I sure love LA, yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 06

  I also love, I love other places, but I do feel, I do feel, you know, if I had tattoos, I'd have some big,

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 06

  Tattoo of the Griffith Park Observatory or something. I feel very.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 26:05Speaker 06

  So much affection for it.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  I think it's beautiful.

• 26:07Speaker 06

  What about Texas for you?

• 26:08Speaker 00

  I grew up a little disjointed.

• 26:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  So I was born in New York, moved to Texas when I was three or four. And then I lived in different places in Texas, kind of, around Dallas. And so I actually, and then I moved to Alaska, and then it came, anyway, it's boring, but I changed schools, maybe, I think, ten or eleven times. And I think I have a different thing with home. I love, I mean, I love it. There's things I love. But I'm a little less cemented, because I wasn't cemented.

• 26:38Speaker 06

  Sure, of course.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  Did you grow up in the same house?

• 26:41Speaker 06

  Pretty much. We lived.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  That's so special.

• 26:44Speaker 06

  It's part of it. We lived in a triplex in Silver Lake, where it was like, sort of, an odd, almost house. And then three families, and we were on the middle floor.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 26:54Speaker 06

  And then we moved out of that place when, I think that was like one of those things where the owner was like, I'm selling it.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 06

  And then we moved into a house in Highland Park when Billy was about to be born, right? Like, a month, like, the month of nine eleven. And then Billy was born right after, and then we lived there until I moved out. And I didn't move out till I was twenty one.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  What's your age difference?

• 27:16Speaker 06

  Four years.

• 27:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 27:18Speaker 06

  So I'm twenty eight, and she's twenty four.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 27:20Speaker 06

  But.

• 27:22Speaker 06

  I lived there, yeah, until I was 21 because we started touring when I was like 19.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 06

  And so then you're like, why would I, why would I, I'm home, I'm home for a week.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  You want home cooking?

• 27:34Speaker 06

  Why would I pay rent?

• 27:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 06

  Somewhere, you know, and then I got this girlfriend who I'm now engaged to and I was like, she had a cute apartment and I remember being like, oh, I have to move out.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, got it.

• 27:46Speaker 06

  I was like, she has an apartment or we can hang out at my mom's house.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:50Speaker 06

  I maybe needed, I need to live somewhere.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  There, there's a point where it has to happen. Fly, little birdie, fly.

• 27:55Speaker 06

  Good piece of growth.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. But do you think, do you ever think of living anywhere else or you just feel LA is your home? I'm sure you, because you travel so much, it's kind of like that itch gets scratched a little bit.

• 28:08Speaker 06

  I mean, I, I feel, I, I feel the same thing I assume a lot of people feel, which is like, I go somewhere I love and I think, ooh, living here seems romantic and cool. I could do that, you know?

• 28:22Speaker 00

  But it feels like a lot of work to move.

• 28:24Speaker 06

  Sure is a lot of work and it's, you know, it's all of my friends, whatever. I feel very partial to Australia.

• 28:31Speaker 00

  Really?

• 28:31Speaker 06

  Feel very partial to.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  It's kind of like California vibes.

• 28:35Speaker 06

  Australia is a little bit like if the English only colonized Texas or something.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 28:40Speaker 06

  You know what I mean?

• 28:41Speaker 00

  You're getting Texas vibes.

• 28:42Speaker 06

  It's sort of like cowboy England.

• 28:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess, I guess that makes sense.

• 28:46Speaker 06

  But I do really like it. And then I feel that way about like, you know, the Scandinavian, like I feel that way about, and I feel that way about like Sweden and Copenhagen and, you know, those are beautiful cities. Stockholm and whatever.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  And they're fun in the summer because they're not as hot.

• 29:07Speaker 06

  It's funny because you go, probably like you, you go on tour to Stockholm in May or June.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Yes, not the winter.

• 29:13Speaker 06

  No, and they've just gotten out of the winter. And so everyone that you're like, how are you doing? And everyone's like, it's been a long winter. They're all, they've all just suffered tremendously. But I don't know, I think there is something about a kind of a cyclical. You know, it is like you're you get really numb to you get numb to everything.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:34Speaker 06

  So I think that I'm like, oh, you they're probably appreciating this beautiful day in a way that as a Californian, I'm.

• 29:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is the whole the whole thing. I love winter, so I don't know. I would I could just go on a winter trip if I lived in California, probably.

• 29:49Speaker 06

  Do you have children?

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 06

  How old?

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Ten and twelve.

• 29:52Speaker 06

  Oh, those are potent ages.

• 29:54Speaker 00

  It's getting weird. I'm not gonna lie.

• 29:59Speaker 00

  They're great, but it's I'm like, oh, hold on.

• 30:02Speaker 06

  Are they? Because I think when I was twelve, I was sort of maybe through TV shows and movies like I was like, I want to live in.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:10Speaker 06

  This place and that. I want to live in, you know, Seattle or something funny. Do they have any places that are calling to them at this young age?

• 30:20Speaker 00

  They're still really attached to any place that we've visited and had a fun trip. So they both love LA because we've had a couple of family trips out there.

• 30:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  And I took my daughter to Japan. I went on tour in September. It was a very short, just two shows. So I took her and recently she's like, yeah, well, when I'm older and I live in Japan. And I'm like, oh, OK. So I think they're very impressionable still.

• 30:42Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, and they're so, you know, I think that it's also you're you keep thinking you know who you are and then you keep finding out you're not at those ages. And I think that my memories of traveling to more plebeian places, more more sort of benign places than Japan. I still was sort of attached to the fact that I felt new.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:06Speaker 06

  Right? I didn't. I was like, I can be whoever I want to be here.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  That's the fun part about changing changing it up, right?

• 31:13Speaker 06

  Is your is your daughter ten or twelve?

• 31:16Speaker 00

  She's ten.

• 31:16Speaker 06

  Right. So you're ten and you're in Japan.

• 31:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and shopping.

• 31:20Speaker 06

  I've never been older.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Yes, it was so fun.

• 31:22Speaker 06

  This is pretty exciting. And it's a beautiful, you know, country.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  Such a cool place, but yeah.

• 31:28Speaker 06

  Because in Tokyo and Osaka or something.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 06

  Unbelievable. Yeah, but they're unbelievable.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  They're unbelievable.

• 31:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was special.

• 31:38Speaker 04

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• 32:06Speaker 00

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• 32:47Speaker 00

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• 33:01Speaker 00

  When did you start playing music? Were your parents musicians?

• 33:03Speaker 06

  My parents are hobbyist musicians. They've never made money from it.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  So they love it?

• 33:10Speaker 06

  They love it. My dad played a lot of piano in the house growing up, and my mom played some piano, too. And then my mom played guitar in the house, like a lot of nylon string.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 33:23Speaker 06

  And write songs.

• 33:24Speaker 00

  And singing?

• 33:25Speaker 06

  And she sang. And so that was kind of from there. The house was full of... Instruments.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  That's so fun.

• 33:32Speaker 06

  And, and my mom actually taught, like, I don't, I wonder how, I bet, I bet it was the same way she does everything else, which is like, there's a program called Music Together for like, little, little kids, babies and toddlers. And she put us in it. And then, you know, it's all shaking stuff and singing little nursery rhymes and clapping and, but it's, but it's for real. You know what I mean? It's like.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  It's cool.

• 34:00Speaker 06

  It's cool.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  You're not singing lame songs.

• 34:03Speaker 06

  No, it's, you're singing beautiful little melodies and, and I think she got into that. And then she started teaching those classes. And so we were, you know, because we were her kids, we might, as just sort of members of the class, go to one a week. And because she was teaching, I'd sit through like four.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. Yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 06

  Which was great.

• 34:24Speaker 00

  Would you help then teach?

• 34:25Speaker 06

  No, I mean, I was very young.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  You were still little. Okay.

• 34:27Speaker 06

  You know, and, but I do, I do think that much like when kids learn how to play violin at, at four, they have like perfect pitch, which I don't have. But I do think like.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Like you develop that muscle?

• 34:40Speaker 06

  I had a lot of rhythm. Like, I was like really, you know, tambourines and shakers and, I think all that stuff, when you're young and learning language is so awesome. So that was really our kind of early exposure to stuff. When I was like 11, I started playing some piano.

• 34:58Speaker 00

  Did you take formal lessons?

• 34:59Speaker 06

  I took some formal lessons, but it was, it didn't stick. I took like, I had an Italian piano teacher named Marco. And, you know, we learned like,

• 35:10Speaker 06

  you know, stuff like that. And that was no fun.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 06

  It wasn't connected to anything.

• 35:15Speaker 00

  Well, I, I wanted to quit as soon as I started because I didn't want to practice.

• 35:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  And I had a really sweet teacher, but it was classical and it was a very classical program.

• 35:23Speaker 06

  Yeah. Also, you're not practicing a thing that is.

• 35:28Speaker 06

  That is fun. You know what I mean? Like, that was, I remembered being 11 and my dad knew enough theory on a piano to play like pop songs. And I remember it being like, the classic thing of like, teach me how to play that pop song. He's like, it's just four chords. And he shows you the four chords. And then you go like, okay, cool. And then practicing becomes fun because you're, it doesn't feel like practicing, it feels like playing a song you love. And then you go, okay dad, teach me how to play this other song. And he's like, guess what? Same four chords, like just different order.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  That's kind of where we are now, trying to get them.

• 36:02Speaker 06

  But that like, that was to me like a, you know, cheating on an exam. I was like, oh my god, I can do, you know what I mean?

• 36:09Speaker 00

  That's so much easier than you thought. Yeah, I know.

• 36:12Speaker 06

  So then it was, then I was obsessed.

• 36:14Speaker 00

  And then, did you, and that's where you started writing songs?

• 36:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, I knew four chords and wrote a song.

• 36:18Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 36:18Speaker 06

  But again.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  Do you remember the song?

• 36:26Speaker 00

  What age are we talking?

• 36:27Speaker 06

  11.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, but it, but I wasn't finishing stuff, right? So I'd get something and I'd be like, that's cool. And then when I was 12 and 13, I probably started writing stuff and finishing it. And again, like the looking in the mirror photo thing, like, it was like, this is, I was very, I think just so proud of the fact that I'd made up something, that I wasn't insecure. You know, now I hear stuff and I'm like, whoa.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  Well, had you, could you record it?

• 36:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, but only maybe on like little, you know, only like on a iPod,

• 37:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 06

  voice memo app or something.

• 37:02Speaker 00

  Because I got scared away from songwriting in high school. I think because I went to this amazing performing arts high school.

• 37:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  And they encouraged us to write and we had a synthesis ensemble. I mean, it was really cool.

• 37:13Speaker 06

  That's cool.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  And the, the band director had a new Pro Tools or something and they recorded it and then they.

• 37:20Speaker 06

  Played it back.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 06

  Devastating.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  Also, like, we added stuff to it, production, stuff, choices that maybe I wouldn't have made. And, and it's cool, but like, I think it, it like made me turtle in a little after that.

• 37:35Speaker 06

  I mean, I agree. I remember writing stuff and feeling so kind of. Proud and attached to the the authorship of it. But the performance side of it, I was always like, oh, my god.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  What about the lyrics? Because that always scared me off, too, in the beginning. Did you have lyric self-consciousness? Were you into poetry or?

• 37:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, I've, yeah. I mean, the the stuff I was listening to at the time was all kind of influenced by stuff like The Who and Pink Floyd. It was like, you know, again, My Chemical Romance and Green Day and stuff. And so that was all so theatrical.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 38:15Speaker 06

  I'm grateful to that because I think at 11 or 12, I'd gone through so little. Couldn't like sing about like driving around.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it wasn't just your diary. You could, you could sing about mythical creatures.

• 38:27Speaker 06

  Exactly. And I think that that was really, and then it probably made me less self-conscious because I would be like, this isn't how I feel. This is, this is a character.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  Well, that's always what you can say.

• 38:38Speaker 06

  It always is how you feel. But I'm grateful to that because I actually think that as I've aged, I've gotten more and more interested in trying to articulate how I just am feeling about my own life.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 06

  And I think if I'd been doing that at like 11 or 12, I would have been, that would have been so, it's hard for me now. It would have been so hard for me then.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, yeah, as I get older, the same. I I try to hide my feelings way less.

• 39:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, a close friend of mine and I, who are, he's another songwriter I love. We always talk about like trying to not write all the answers music. Because it doesn't feel good to hear it. You know what I mean?

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:18Speaker 06

  And it's tempting to write it. Like, as soon as you have a kind of a good thesis on something, you're like, oh.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  This is how it is.

• 39:25Speaker 06

  It's an annoying, yeah, this is how it is.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 06

  Songwriting is tempting and also you're like.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  It's annoying to listen to.

• 39:31Speaker 06

  Yeah, and it's not, and it's not how it is.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can think of like three songs that I never play because they're annoying. And they're those songs.

• 39:40Speaker 06

  It's tough. And it's, you know, I think it's okay to write all those, but I do sort of think, I try to go like, but okay, but what am I? What is the, what is the problem I'm solving? I should just write a song about the problem.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  And not the solution.

• 39:54Speaker 06

  Not solving it.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're not gonna solve it in the song.

• 39:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly.

• 39:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. I didn't know this. I, I, I'm a fan, but I'm not, like, I don't know the, I didn't know the origins of Ocean Eyes. You wrote that for a band you were in? Were you in a band in high school?

• 40:12Speaker 06

  I was in bands in high school. My, my understanding of music at that age was like, limited by my, my fandoms of artists. So I was a huge fan of bands. And then I knew about like solo artists. And that was so separate in my mind and so unsophisticated and how I could sort of

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 06

  imagine it.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  Well, it seems so solitary.

• 40:38Speaker 06

  Well, I'm like a solo artist. You know, I don't know who I was. I was a big fan of like Ben Folds in high school. And then I was a big fan of all these indie rock bands. And so I just sort of thought like, a band is guitars and bass and drums and a singer.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:58Speaker 06

  And a solo artist is, can be kind of anything. It could be that, or it could be just, you know, a person at a piano, or it could be super synthy and electronic. But I was, I was not, I wasn't paying enough attention to like Radiohead or something that was broadening the kind of definition of band.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  So when you were, okay, well, cause I feel like your music has a lot of synthesizers.

• 41:20Speaker 06

  So, so much.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Where does that come from? If you, you were in more, into more like rock and roll kind of guitar-y bands.

• 41:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, in high school, I mean, my real sort of origin of trying to like record music, whether it was, you know, paying for a couple hours at a studio or trying to, you know, set up a drum kit in my sister's room, was like really like guitars, bass and drums and how to record that and how they sounded on big pop records that Chris Lord Algae would mix or something.

• 41:47Speaker 00

  You were already into that stuff?

• 41:49Speaker 06

  As a 13 year old, yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  The background of it all?

• 41:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 41:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:52Speaker 06

  I was always pouring over it, yes.

• 41:56Speaker 06

  And so that was really, again, the first several years. It happened to be very much not in vogue. You know what I mean?

• 42:04Speaker 00

  No, not at all. That's why I'm kind of surprised that you've been doing this thing for so long. I mean, it's so good and it's such a good. I mean that in a good way.

• 42:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 42:14Speaker 06

  I mean, I, you know, I was also a fan of, you know, soundtracks and I loved like, I really loved, you know, the pop stars of my teens, which were largely women. It was, you know, it was largely like Beyonce and Taylor Swift. And, you know, they were doing things with production that were intriguing to me. But I was not able to sort of like understand that anyone could be that experimental with production. I was like, you can only do that if you're Beyonce or something, you know?

• 42:53Speaker 00

  It's actually easier to do that than some of the other stuff.

• 42:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 00

  Because it's all contained within this thing.

• 43:00Speaker 06

  So I wrote Ocean Eyes the same way I was just sitting around writing songs at eight. I probably wrote it at 17. And I had gotten, I had, I had started to feel kind of capable at sitting and making little demos on my computer on Logic Pro. Billy was 13 at the time. And I was playing in this band. And again, I feel like, you know, I assume other people feel this way. But I just sort of was like, I'm going to be in a band and we're going to succeed or we're going to fail. And if we fail, I'll be a dishwasher or something. Or I'll, or I'll, or I'll, you know, clean the, the mixing console with a Q-tip at the studio.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  We thought that band was it?

• 43:40Speaker 06

  I just didn't think, I didn't think very broadly about the world of music. I was like, it's my band until I die.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's normal.

• 43:48Speaker 06

  And these three of my friends.

• 43:50Speaker 06

  But I was trying to get better at making music. And so I was, I was like, you know, asking Billy to sing on stuff. Billy loved to sing already.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  And you could already tell that she had something special?

• 44:04Speaker 06

  I mean, I, I sure thought she was good. And also she was available to me. She was in the same house and, you know, I'd be like, can you sing this chorus?

• 44:12Speaker 00

  It was just easy.

• 44:13Speaker 06

  Yeah. And so I, I had been playing. And it was also kind of like, I was writing songs and like, everything was going through the funnel of my voice and my three friends playing guitar, bass and drums. And I remember seeking out a producer named Eric Palmquist, who had made a record for a band called Bad Suns that I loved. And this was all like me, like writing, you know, confident emails at 17. And I remember playing him like 10 songs that my band had done. And it was, it was so clear to everyone but me that I was a songwriter and not in a band. Do you know what I mean? I would play him like the very folk, folksy song. And then I'd play him like a really synthy thing.

• 44:56Speaker 06

  And then I'd play him like a hard rock thing. And he was like, this is pretty all over the place, you know? And I was like, the Beatles were all over. And he was like, yeah, but they, he was like, he was like, but they made like many albums. Like they, you know what I mean? They didn't like, I Want to Hold Your Hand and Blue Jay Way are not back to back on a record. So I was writing all these songs and I wrote Ocean Eyes. And then I would play it with my band and we kind of had like a Soundgarden version of it. And I was like, this sucks, man.

• 45:28Speaker 00

  Do you have it recorded? Has anyone ever heard it?

• 45:31Speaker 06

  There's probably like a, like a Handycam thing from a park when we were playing like a fair.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 45:37Speaker 06

  And I, but you know what I mean? You know, when you've written the song and you've got, you're playing it. Maybe you've got other people in the room and you're thinking like, this is not how this is supposed to sound.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  No, you know it when it feels right.

• 45:50Speaker 06

  And so I just was like, I don't, this, I know I wrote it, but this is not it. So I went home and I asked Billy if she wanted to sing it. And she'd been hearing it every day. And so she said, sure. And it just sounded, she does the thing that, that you do, which is like, Suddenly, it sounds like she wrote every word of it. Her interpretation of it is so. And she kind of does that with with everything, which, you know, is certainly something I don't feel that I can do, but she immediately made it her own thing. And then the music we were listening to at the time sort of defined the genre that that song went into. We were listening to a lot of like indie SoundCloud music artists like Lapsley and Aurora

• 46:35Speaker 06

  and Oh Wonder, which was Sylvan Esso, these kind of like pads, synthy.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:42Speaker 06

  Very forward vocals. Those all happened to be female vocalists, but like very present in the mix. Percussion that is not a drum kit, percussion that's like weird, you know, boom bap things.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  But kind of background.

• 46:55Speaker 06

  Kind of backgroundy, very minimalist, very few elements, and then a lot of vocals. And so that was sort of the origin. We put it out on SoundCloud and it was like, you know, it was like they say. It was like we put it out on SoundCloud and it got on this blog called Hilly Dilly right away, which I still don't know how, and I've investigated, I don't know how it happened.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  You don't think they were fed it by anyone? Like, you think they just picked it up because they heard it?

• 47:20Speaker 06

  Chad, who runs Hilly Dilly, claims that he found it on a Reddit thread.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 47:24Speaker 06

  And he wouldn't, he won't tell me what Reddit thread, but we were not connected enough.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  You just put it out.

• 47:31Speaker 06

  We just put it on SoundCloud. It was like our third thing we'd put on SoundCloud and it was, you know, it didn't, it didn't blow up like going on Ellen, but it blew up like we got like a thousand plays. And we were like, oh my, really?

• 47:42Speaker 00

  Like overnight?

• 47:42Speaker 06

  Do you know a thousand people? I don't know a thousand people. And then it snowballed. Which is funny because you'd hear stories like that and I would just be infuriated.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're like, that's not true.

• 47:54Speaker 06

  Just overnight, it's on the radio. And I would be like, what are you talking about? It's impossible. And so then, even though it, you know, it didn't feel overnight, I still was like, wow, that's crazy. You really just can.

• 48:04Speaker 00

  It's amazing.

• 48:06Speaker 06

  And I do kind of think ultimately that I, I don't know how many things I've made that are sort of.

• 48:16Speaker 06

  Truly, truly accessible in the like when you hear something for the first time. Like, I remember when I heard Royals by Lorde for the first time. And like those songs were like the very first listen, you go like, who is this? What is this? I need, I'm gonna hear it like.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  And you remember some of it.

• 48:33Speaker 06

  Exactly. Somebody that I used to know by Ghotia or something. And so it's like, I really do think that ultimately you can, you can have success in a million other ways. But I, whenever somebody plays me a song that I feel that way about, I sort of tell them to relax. I'm like, this song is so great that you're kind of, you kind of don't have to worry about it.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  That's nice.

• 48:55Speaker 06

  Probably work out.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  That's encouraging for people. Yeah. But only when you hear a song like that.

• 49:00Speaker 06

  Well, yeah. And again, you can blow, you can make an amazing career out of, you know, other kinds of songs. But I sure, I sure sort of like that continues to be proven. Every couple of years, you hear something unbelievable.

• 49:14Speaker 00

  It's a good bar.

• 49:15Speaker 06

  And you and your husband or your friend, you go like, this is unbelievable. And it, six months later, everybody knows that song, which is an awesome, you know.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  It's a crazy story. I didn't even know that SoundCloud was one of those.

• 49:28Speaker 06

  Discovery platforms.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I kind of didn't really, I kind of missed that section of the internet. Do you think stuff like that is still around or it's just all so in your face now all the time? That I don't know if there's anything like that now.

• 49:42Speaker 06

  I find stuff now on TikTok.

• 49:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've heard of that. Okay. No, but that's what I mean, like TikTok, Instagram, like I think of those. But I think of SoundCloud as being less, or was I just old already?

• 49:58Speaker 06

  I think you're right. I think that like, you know, SoundCloud was, the only way I can assume that somebody would have heard it and put it on a blog is that SoundCloud, much like TikTok and Instagram, auto-played stuff.

• 50:11Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 50:11Speaker 06

  So you could, you could kind of game it a little bit with hashtags. You could hashtag indie pop.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  So it had that thing. Okay.

• 50:17Speaker 06

  So, but, but again, audio only, you could comment on the song. You could comment on a part of the song, which I liked.

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Really? I'm like, oh, this section is amazing.

• 50:27Speaker 06

  Because this was also back when like a certain version of sort of bedroom DJing was happening. So you'd comment on like the drop. You'd be like, oh, so satisfying.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  That's so fun. I wish I had have been around for that.

• 50:37Speaker 06

  It was fun. And it was it was unmonetized. So also, there was like, people would do unauthorized. Like, part of the thing that helped Ocean Eyes have a life was that a couple people did unauthorized remixes of it very quickly.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Oh, OK.

• 50:52Speaker 06

  A DJ called Astronomy did a remix very quickly. Black Bear, the R and B singer rapper, did like an unauthorized remix very quickly.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  OK.

• 51:02Speaker 06

  And because those were only on Spotify, it was like, they didn't have to clear it. Nobody was making money. But it helped the exposure of the song, which was really interesting.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  That is interesting. I mean, because it's it's hard getting clearance now for anything.

• 51:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think what was nice about SoundCloud compared to TikTok, and I am basically a I basically support TikTok, but I I think that there is a little bit of a like, how do I trick people into paying attention to this?

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Well, it's become the thing.

• 51:32Speaker 06

  How do I, yeah, OK.

• 51:33Speaker 00

  How do I work the system?

• 51:35Speaker 06

  I have a song.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 06

  What piece of video content do I shoot that will make the song?

• 51:41Speaker 00

  Bingo.

• 51:41Speaker 06

  Shine in a way?

• 51:43Speaker 00

  That's how this feels different.

• 51:45Speaker 06

  Yes. And so SoundCloud was just a song.

• 51:47Speaker 00

  You couldn't game the system.

• 51:48Speaker 06

  The most you could do is like a little cute cover art. You know what I mean?

• 51:51Speaker 00

  That's cool. There's a little more underground.

• 51:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, and a little bit purer. You could just be a fan of a song. And I think now it is like, like, two of the people that I could point to that have done it the most successfully are these there's these girls, I think, or maybe sisters. And they have a like a shtick that they were running that was awesome, where they would like, I don't know if it was like a GoPro or just a phone. But they would they would sing their songs, kind of a rappy thing on TikTok, and they would like, run full tilt through somewhere.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Oh, and then it goes?

• 52:24Speaker 06

  It was sick.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 52:25Speaker 06

  And it really made you connect with the song because it was such a cool. You know what I mean? They'd run through like, they'd run through like the back of a restaurant.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 52:34Speaker 06

  They'd zoom through the full kitchen of a restaurant. Or down the Santa Monica Pier or something. And it was a great way for you to connect with the song. But I also had this feeling of like, I like this song anyway.

• 52:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:46Speaker 06

  What a lot of work these two, these two kids have to do.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  That song could have done its thing on its own.

• 52:51Speaker 06

  I could have been like, I love this. And instead, these people are like panting and figuring it out.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  Wow. And was it a quick song, Ocean Eyes? Was that one of those quick ones?

• 52:59Speaker 06

  Ocean Eyes was instantaneous.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  It seems like the kind of simple beauty that's just works. Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 06

  Terrible, terrible, terrible when you, when you, you know, kill yourself over something for two months and you think about the thing that you, you know,

• 53:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 06

  has done so much for you that came to you instantly.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  That's part of the magic.

• 53:20Speaker 06

  It is.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Isn't it? It's part of the magic of the thing that we can't control.

• 53:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, I remember writing the first, I remember, to be honest, and this isn't even very common for me, but I remember like this phrase.

• 53:34Speaker 06

  I've been watching you for some time. Can't stop staring at those ocean eyes. Improv, like

• 53:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:46Speaker 06

  fully just playing it and singing it all in one and thinking like, I gotta record that.

• 53:52Speaker 00

  I hope I don't forget that.

• 53:53Speaker 06

  And then recording it.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:55Speaker 06

  And it's also, I mean, again, it is, you know, to, to point to simplicity, it is just the descending note in those chords, right? Here's the C chord. So it's just E, D, B. So it's really, you're just singing the chord progression. Which I will say, like, I remember a musician, Bruno Major, complimenting Marcus Mumford one time. Bruno Major is a very jazzy guy. He'll play a million beautiful voicings of a chord. And he said about Marcus, I guess they know each other some. He was like, Marcus will sing the best melody you've ever heard over a G.

• 54:37Speaker 06

  And it is like, there are some people, I think Paul Simon is one of them, that can just.

• 54:44Speaker 06

  Play this one thing and dance around melodically. And I think that like, one of the things, I've tried to get better at that because I feel like the more chords I can fit somewhere.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  You match your melodies. Yeah, but that's what makes it special. That's the coolest part. To me, that's what's so cool about this song is the matching of the melody with the chord changes. I think it's really special.

• 55:07Speaker 06

  Well, thanks.

• 55:08Speaker 00

  I really do.

• 55:09Speaker 06

  It means a lot.

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's beautiful.

• 55:11Speaker 04

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• 56:35Speaker 00

  Will you sing it for me?

• 56:36Speaker 06

  Let's do it.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  What key do you do it in?

• 56:38Speaker 06

  So this is, I played it in C just now, which is the key I've grown used to playing it with Billy.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  You sing it in that key as well?

• 56:47Speaker 06

  I don't really sing it, because...

• 56:49Speaker 00

  No, you never sing it?

• 56:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, but I was thinking just now that that might be a little low for me. So, maybe let's go to, ah, let's do, yeah, F-sharp minor key.

• 57:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 57:06Speaker 06

  Okay, let's see. This is probably still deep, but knowing your voice, I think it'll sound...

• 57:10Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 57:11Speaker 06

  I think that's okay, right?

• 57:13Speaker 00

  I can't be Billie. I won't. I won't try. She's got her own sweet, beautiful... God, she's got... She sounds so sweet on this song. I was listening to it.

• 57:20Speaker 06

  I'm so young.

• 57:21Speaker 00

  Because is she 13 on the recording?

• 57:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  So sweet.

• 57:25Speaker 06

  I know.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  It's actually just like so sweet.

• 57:28Speaker 06

  It's really beautiful.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  It's so beautiful.

• 57:30Speaker 06

  I also love when... And I was way guiltier of this than she was. But you're much like your 10-year-old moving to Japan. Like, you're singing with this like maturity. You know what I mean?

• 57:46Speaker 00

  Well, she's...

• 57:46Speaker 06

  Which I love.

• 57:47Speaker 00

  She's actually got such a high-functioning instrument, you know, nerd. But she's not trying to show you everything she can do. She's got the innocence of just singing the song.

• 58:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, this guy, Stephen Lipson, who we worked with on the James Bond song, was... We were talking about how to... It was the first time we'd ever had like horns and stuff on a Billie song. And that's a pretty loud thing to compete with her very delicate voice.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  I can relate to that.

• 58:17Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 06

  And he said, and you can take this for yourself. He said, "Her voice is like gossamer." And I was like, "Ugh, cool, cool description of her voice."

• 58:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 06

  Gossamer.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  No, I've always been hesitant to use strings.

• 58:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 58:31Speaker 00

  Like huge string sections.

• 58:32Speaker 06

  They're so loud.

• 58:33Speaker 00

  Because I like, I feel like I'm occupying that space, thank you. And I like harmonies to do it.

• 58:38Speaker 06

  That's why you want an upright bass.

• 58:40Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 58:41Speaker 06

  All right. This is Ocean Eyes.

• 58:56Speaker 06

  I've been watching you for some time. Can't stop staring at those ocean eyes. Burning cities and napalm skies. Fifteen flares inside your ocean eyes. No fear.

• 59:30Speaker 07

  You really know how to make me cry When you give me those ocean eyes I'm scared I've never fallen from quite this high Into your ocean eyes Those ocean eyes

• 1:00:09Speaker 07

  I've been walking through a world gone blind Can't stop thinking of your diamond mind Careful creatures made friends with time Left her lonely with her diamond mind And those ocean eyes No fair You really know how to make me cry When you give me those ocean eyes

• 1:00:54Speaker 07

  I'm scared I've never fallen from quite this high Falling into your ocean eyes Those ocean eyes

• 1:01:42Speaker 06

  No fear.

• 1:01:50Speaker 06

  You really know how to make me cry when you give me those ocean eyes. And I'm scared.

• 1:02:04Speaker 06

  I'm never falling quite this high into your ocean eyes. Those ocean eyes.

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  It's so pretty.

• 1:02:21Speaker 06

  I haven't sung that song in, it's like since I wrote it. That's crazy.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  You sound beautiful.

• 1:02:25Speaker 06

  What a fun excuse to do this, Nora. Thank you for it.

• 1:02:28Speaker 00

  Your cup is empty. Sorry for that.

• 1:02:30Speaker 06

  It's all good. I've been chugging.

• 1:02:31Speaker 00

  Oh, you sound beautiful. It's fun to hear you sing it. You wrote it.

• 1:02:35Speaker 06

  It's funny to sing these things too with, you know, maybe a separate topic to you saying that you feel more attached to the things you've written than the songs you've made famous that you haven't written.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:47Speaker 06

  It's also funny to sing a song that I did write, that I did not sing, and feel so distant from it.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  Well, do you feel like self-conscious when you sing it because it's not her? Like, or do you?

• 1:03:03Speaker 06

  I mean, I certainly feel intimidated by, like, I really think she has the best voice. I love the way her voice sounds. And so I think it's very hard for me to be, to not be conscious of my performance versus her amazing performance.

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:03:22Speaker 06

  And then, and then I also, again, on this, you know, what I've just found is I'm like, oh, wow, I'm really singing these lyrics like I am singing a Norah Jones cover or something. Which is so odd because I wrote it. But I have, but I have so... I've so given over the deed. The house is, I can, I can open the front door, but I do not own the house.

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  It's been remodeled.

• 1:03:48Speaker 06

  It's been remodeled. Yeah, which is kind of a, kind of a great feeling.

• 1:03:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 06

  I remember seeing, hearing that, because you know Johnny Cash does that amazing cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:04:01Speaker 06

  And I think I've heard that Trent heard it and was like, not my song anymore.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 06

  But as I like, I don't own that anymore.

• 1:04:09Speaker 00

  What a compliment.

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Speaker 06

  And I totally relate to that. I mean, the other instance I have of that is I wrote the song Lonely. And I wrote it for Justin Bieber, like it was not, it was about his life. And here's the offering, go ahead and sing it if you want.

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  That's different, writing a song, it was, it was for him.

• 1:04:27Speaker 06

  It was totally for him.

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  That's different than writing a song.

• 1:04:30Speaker 06

  It is.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  And then having someone else own it.

• 1:04:32Speaker 06

  You're right. But it was a similar thing of like, as soon as he sang it, I was like, did I write that? You know what I mean? Like, it's so clear that it belongs to him as soon as he touches the lyric. Which I think is awesome.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  It is awesome. Thank you, I'm really honored that you sang it with me.

• 1:04:51Speaker 06

  No problem.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  It sounds great.

• 1:04:53Speaker 06

  Thanks.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  You sound amazing, I love your voice.

• 1:04:55Speaker 06

  I saw another example of like, I was 18 and it's like, such sort of vague lyrics.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  But I think that's kind of what, they're simple, but they're, they're relatable. And they're not vague.

• 1:05:08Speaker 06

  You get further and further away from being able to explain them too.

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I find them simple in a beautiful way, but not vague.

• 1:05:15Speaker 06

  I'm sure I could have explained it at 18. And again, I was very, I was very, and I still love them so much, but I was very, I was devouring like Bon Iver songs at the time and, you know, those are so impressionistic.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  So beautiful.

• 1:05:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, I have sort of tried, I've gotten, I've gotten more this way and I'm trying not to get even more this way. Like, I, I like, I like vague stuff. I think like very specific.

• 1:05:46Speaker 06

  Things can be so beautiful and effective and romantic, but I really love a vague thing.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  I think pop songwriting in particular has gotten very-

• 1:05:56Speaker 06

  Gotten incredibly specific.

• 1:05:58Speaker 00

  Specific. And I think people love it, but I come from a different school of songwriting and I think, um, I think when it's vague, people can put them, they can put the code on a little easier.

• 1:06:12Speaker 06

  Completely, completely agree.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  They can infer their own story being told to them, you know?

• 1:06:19Speaker 06

  Well, and it also depends on like, there's ugly, ugly, specific, beautiful, specific.

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:06:24Speaker 06

  You know, again, like, I think of Paul Simon as very specific.

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 1:06:29Speaker 06

  If you think of a song like "America", you do have to like, look up a lot, if you're me, if you're like, what's a Mrs. Wagner pie?

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  I thought about suggesting that one and then I was listening to it again. I was like, that's very, very specific.

• 1:06:40Speaker 06

  It's a great song.

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  It's so good, but I don't think, I don't know about the lyrics coming out of our mouths, you know?

• 1:06:45Speaker 06

  Well, yes. And it's also, uh, it's, they're beautiful images, you know, "Boarding the Greyhound" or whatever, like, there's a lot of beauty in those.

• 1:06:54Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:55Speaker 06

  Um, and, uh, I don't know, like, I think that if I'm going specific, I do, I do aspire to go that direction as opposed to singing about CrossFit or-

• 1:07:09Speaker 00

  Or in my phone and I'm, you're texting me.

• 1:07:13Speaker 06

  Do you have dreams about your phone? I've never had a dream about my phone.

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  Never had a dream about my phone.

• 1:07:17Speaker 06

  That's, why are we, why aren't, why aren't we always talking about that?

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  I've never thought about that.

• 1:07:22Speaker 06

  That's insane.

• 1:07:23Speaker 00

  That is, that's crazy.

• 1:07:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, you dream about everything else.

• 1:07:28Speaker 00

  Thank God, there's one place I can lose it.

• 1:07:31Speaker 06

  But what does that mean?

• 1:07:33Speaker 00

  It means that we need to-

• 1:07:35Speaker 06

  Not be on our phones.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  Outlaw them.

• 1:07:36Speaker 06

  But it's, that's crazy that we're on them all day and that they are not a part of our- You can get a call in a dream, you know what I mean? You can be like, oh, I got a call.

• 1:07:47Speaker 00

  But I don't.

• 1:07:48Speaker 06

  But I, but there's no like, I was on Instagram in my dream.

• 1:07:52Speaker 04

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• 1:08:21Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before

• 1:09:04Speaker 00

  the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. I, I really wanted to ask you, because we were talking about synthesizers.

• 1:09:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Speaker 00

  The Beef soundtrack.

• 1:09:21Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  That is awesome.

• 1:09:23Speaker 06

  Thank you so much.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  That's like all synthesized. It's synthesizer heaven.

• 1:09:27Speaker 06

  It's very synth-y.

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  And I've been getting really into ambient music lately.

• 1:09:31Speaker 06

  Cool, me too.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  The genre. What's your like?

• 1:09:34Speaker 06

  Go-to.

• 1:09:34Speaker 00

  Life with that? Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 06

  My life with that is not particularly well identified until I started doing soundtracks.

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:09:47Speaker 06

  And then there are, there are a fair few very sort of ambient, beautiful soundtracks. And so that was kind of my intro to it. And then going back and listening to... Brian Eno's music for airports.

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I finally got into it.

• 1:10:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  Everybody always told me about it and I didn't.

• 1:10:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, there's a time and a place for it.

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  I'm in my era.

• 1:10:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 00

  I'm in my ambient era. I have too much input and so I put the whole soundtrack, beef soundtrack on the other day. Cause I've been doing that lately where I can't listen to like regular music anymore all the time. But I want to listen to something.

• 1:10:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:10:24Speaker 00

  And it was beautiful.

• 1:10:25Speaker 06

  Thank you so much. Thanks for taking time to listen to it.

• 1:10:27Speaker 00

  Really loved it.

• 1:10:27Speaker 06

  I really loved the excuse to make that piece of, you know, that long play.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  It was cool.

• 1:10:33Speaker 06

  That was really a fun thing to work on.

• 1:10:34Speaker 00

  Do you sync everything or do you have someone else who does that? Is there like a music supervisor who will take it?

• 1:10:39Speaker 06

  I synced a lot of it.

• 1:10:41Speaker 00

  That's a lot of work, yeah.

• 1:10:43Speaker 06

  I would make pieces and then they would sort of put them to picture and then, you know, sometimes it would, they'd have to truncate it. And then a lot of it I made to picture.

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  That's, that's cool.

• 1:10:54Speaker 06

  Which was, it was funny. It was like, obviously it's much easier to not do that. It's much easier to just make a piece and send it to them than it is to like, okay, scene starts here and then by 45 seconds in, this character has said this heartbreaking thing, but it's not an even bar count. You know what I mean? That you can't, if it's not an even phrase.

• 1:11:14Speaker 00

  You have to play to it, right?

• 1:11:15Speaker 06

  But there is something kind of amazing about that. It's, it's like anything. You're like, oh, wow. I would never think to have this note drag on to right there and then stop. And so I think ultimately just sort of being like, yeah, I can't make it an even bar.

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:29Speaker 06

  I'm gonna make it an uneven bar. There it is. And then it's gonna feel great in the scene because, you know, just like you're recording, the live recording of Kathy's song or something. It's like,

• 1:11:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Speaker 06

  It's fine. It's live.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  It's cool though. Have, you did the, you did the disclaimer soundtrack, which I also loved.

• 1:11:44Speaker 06

  Thanks so much.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  That's a lot of strings.

• 1:11:46Speaker 06

  It's all strings, yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 00

  Did you arrange it or?

• 1:11:48Speaker 06

  I did, yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a lot of work too.

• 1:11:50Speaker 06

  That was, that was like going to, you know, college for a year or something.

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 06

  It was like, didn't know what I was doing, had to learn. So grateful for the fact that I had to take the time to learn.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  It's a lot of work, but the synth stuff feels like you're just playing around.

• 1:12:05Speaker 06

  The synth stuff was really fun.

• 1:12:06Speaker 00

  You get to just really be one.

• 1:12:08Speaker 06

  Well, and also I think maybe, you know, The synth I played the most on this score was called A Memory Moog. And I've had it for years and I paid too much money for it and I underused it. And I was like, I should sell this, like, somebody else is gonna use it more. And part of the reason I didn't use it was it's analog and it goes out of tune. And if I'm making a song with Billie, I don't wanna make her wait six hours for me to go like, like, you know, it's so long.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:37Speaker 06

  But if I'm scoring a show and there's no singer in the room that I'm wasting the time of.

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  Well, you're just having fun.

• 1:12:44Speaker 06

  I'm just having fun.

• 1:12:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:12:46Speaker 06

  And so now I'm actually like quite, quite comfortable with that synthesizer. And so now when Billie comes over, I can make something good much more quickly.

• 1:12:53Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 1:12:54Speaker 06

  It used to take me hours.

• 1:12:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Speaker 06

  So I'm very grateful for anything like that, any sort of like, oh, I got all into the.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  That's cool.

• 1:13:00Speaker 06

  You know, if somebody was like, do you wanna do another show where you play the same synth? I'd be like, I'm willing. But if somebody was like, do you wanna do a didgeridoo show?

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  You get to learn.

• 1:13:09Speaker 06

  I'd be like, ooh.

• 1:13:10Speaker 00

  That's fun.

• 1:13:11Speaker 06

  I'm gonna get super good at the didgeridoo.

• 1:13:12Speaker 00

  My husband got me a hurdy-gurdy for Christmas.

• 1:13:15Speaker 06

  Hurdy-gurdy is great.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  It was one of the greatest laughs of our lives.

• 1:13:18Speaker 06

  This is a great example. If I did a, if we did a hurdy-gurdy show. Yeah, but think about, maybe you're already great at it, but think about how good you'd get if you had to score a hurdy-gurdy show.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  I would have to have homework to learn it. It's so hard.

• 1:13:30Speaker 06

  That's how life is.

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  He likes it. He likes it. It's cool.

• 1:13:33Speaker 06

  So funny.

• 1:13:33Speaker 00

  We'll, we'll figure it out eventually.

• 1:13:35Speaker 06

  That's so funny. Thank you so much for your time, Nora.

• 1:13:37Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for doing this. It's been awesome.

• 1:13:40Speaker 06

  Should we try it?

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  Let's try it.

• 1:13:42Speaker 06

  Can you take the lead on this and I'll kind of follow along and maybe do like a verse?

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  Do some harmonies?

• 1:13:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  I would love to switch and play piano.

• 1:13:50Speaker 06

  Do it.

• 1:13:51Speaker 00

  If you feel up for it. I don't wanna.

• 1:13:53Speaker 06

  I know, I thought, oh, she's really, she's really been sequestered to just the, the world that's around this.

• 1:14:01Speaker 06

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:14:02Speaker 00

  Okay, sorry.

• 1:14:03Speaker 06

  Just rock out on it.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:14:04Speaker 06

  Sounds great.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  I'm just gonna rock out.

• 1:14:12Speaker 00

  I hear the drizzle of the rain

• 1:14:20Speaker 00

  Like a memory it falls

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  Soft and low continuing

• 1:14:36Speaker 00

  Tapping on my roofing walls

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  And from the shelter of my mind

• 1:14:55Speaker 00

  Through the window of my eyes I gaze beyond the rain-drenched streets

• 1:15:12Speaker 00

  To England where my heart lies

• 1:15:23Speaker 00

  My mind's distracted and diffused

• 1:15:32Speaker 00

  My thoughts are many miles away

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  They lie with you when you're asleep

• 1:15:49Speaker 00

  I kiss you when you start your day And the song I was writing is left undone

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  I don't know why I spend my time

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  Writing songs I can't believe With words that tear and strain to write

• 1:16:28Speaker 00

  So you see, I have come to doubt

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  All that I once held is true.

• 1:16:45Speaker 00

  I stand alone without beliefs.

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  The only truth I know is you.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  And as I watch the drops of rain

• 1:17:14Speaker 00

  weave their weary paths and die,

• 1:17:22Speaker 00

  I know that I am like the rain

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  there before the grace of you go away.

• 1:17:52Speaker 00

  Pretty.

• 1:17:54Speaker 06

  What a piano.

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  It's pretty, right?

• 1:17:56Speaker 06

  You're amazing. I really, I really have been so inspired by your music for many, many years now.

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  Well, I'm a huge fan. I'm so excited you came and I'm glad we're connected and...

• 1:18:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, likewise.

• 1:18:06Speaker 00

  Stay in touch, please.

• 1:18:07Speaker 06

  Thanks for so much time out of your Tuesday.

• 1:18:09Speaker 00

  You, please.

• 1:18:10Speaker 06

  Fun time for me.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  Thank you for spending time with me. I appreciate it.

• 1:18:12Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:18:13Speaker 00

  Yay!

• 1:18:14Speaker 04

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they

• 1:19:28Speaker 00

  are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:19:40Speaker 00

  Oh, that was so fun. Thank you so much for listening.

• 1:19:43Speaker 05

  He's so great. Oh, my God. I loved hearing "Ocean Eyes," like with him singing it.

• 1:19:47Speaker 00

  I know, I loved him singing it.

• 1:19:49Speaker 05

  It's his song, and just in his voice, it was really special.

• 1:19:51Speaker 00

  He's got a great voice, too.

• 1:19:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, I loved it.

• 1:19:53Speaker 00

  It must be weird to have her sing his song, and then sing it, and then feel like he's not her. But he has a great voice.

• 1:20:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, I feel like he kind of maybe reconnected with the song by performing it.

• 1:20:06Speaker 00

  I was glad he was open to it. If you want to know what songs we played today, the first song we did was called "Die Alone," and that's a Phineas song from his album Blood Harmony, which came out in 2019. The second song we played was "Ocean Eyes," which Billie Eilish famously recorded for SoundCloud, as you heard, uploaded in 2015 to SoundCloud before its wider release on "Don't Smile at Me," which came out in 2017. And it was written by Phineas O'Connell, who is Phineas with a last name. The third song we did was Kathy's Song. It first appeared on Paul Simon's solo album, The Paul Simon Songbook, in 1965, and then it was rerecorded by Simon and Garfunkel for "Sounds of Silence" in 1966. I actually did not know that.

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  Special thanks to Phineas for joining us today, and we'll be back next week with Michelle and DeGiochello. Norah Jones is playing along. It's a production of iHeart Podcasts. Visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Norah Jones. This episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Fry, photography by Sherwin-Lin则, produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda, executive producers Erin Juan Kaufman and Jordan Runtog, marketing lead Alison Cantor-Graeber. Thanks, toodle-oo.

• 1:21:29Speaker 00

  If you love music and great artist interviews, check out Before the Moment, hosted by Nile Rodgers. This new series follows Nile as he travels across the country, talking with some of today's most fascinating artists about the moments that shaped their lives and careers. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the point where everything changed, and this podcast tells the stories that came before it. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 1:23:09Speaker 00

  Hello?

• 1:23:10Speaker 07

  Hey, it's me, your wallet.

• 1:23:12Speaker 00

  Oh, hey.

• 1:23:13Speaker 07

  I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?

• 1:23:17Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:23:17Speaker 07

  Really?

• 1:23:18Speaker 00

  Yep, I'm shopping at Food Lion.

• 1:23:20Speaker 07

  Wait, you mean low prices?

• 1:23:22Speaker 00

  And MVP savings.

• 1:23:23Speaker 07

  Oh, you do care.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  Obviously.

• 1:23:26Speaker 07

  Okay, I feel better.

• 1:23:27Speaker 00

  Good, now let's go get some snacks. At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at FoodLion.com. This is an iHeart Podcast.

• 1:23:49Speaker 00

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