Norah Jones Is Playing Along
Original podcast
Martha Wainwright stops by to talk with Norah about growing up in one of music’s storied families and carving out her own path as an artist.
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This episode is also available as video on YouTube. You can visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. Hey, I'm Norah Jones, and today I'm playing along with Martha Wainwright.
Hi, I'm Norah Jones. With me, as always, is Sarah Oda.
As always.
We have an incredible episode today. We have singer songwriter and somebody that I personally have been a fan of for a long time.
Same.
Martha Wainwright. She is part of the legendary Wainwright McGaragall music family. She has these deeply personal songs and a very unmistakable, unforgettable voice.
Yeah.
Last year, 2025 marked the 20th anniversary of her self titled debut album. So I've been a fan for 20 years.
Yeah, me too. Those songs meant so much to me back in the living room days.
Remember those days?
And they hit so hard. They were just had this intensity that really like caught you in whatever moment in your life you were, you know?
Yeah, her songs are, her way of performing and her lyrics, everything is just, it just really punches you kind of right in the heart.
Or the gut.
All over.
In this episode, you're going to hear about what it was like for her to grow up in a family of musicians. You're going to hear a little bit about what she did with her time during the pandemic. And as always, incredible duets in like a true intense Martha Wainwright style.
She's one of my favorite singers.
She's incredible.
She really is. Yeah, she's an incredible soul.
It was really fun. So I hope you enjoy this episode with our old pal Martha Wainwright. There is some spicy language in this episode, so listener discretion is advised. It's not that bad, but just so you know, it's there.
How long have we known each other?
It's been at least 20 years.
Oh, no, at least.
Because did we first meet through JC?
I think so, yeah.
And then, yeah, it was everywhere. We were just all, all over this.
Then it was all over the place. And also our good friend in common, Thomas Bartlett.
Yes.
And, you know, yeah, I remember, you know, stuffing the, your promo.
CDs.
Yeah, oh, because of Shell, of course.
Yeah, at Shell's house.
Didn't even think about that.
Yeah, and there was on a table, it was like the promo for Blue Note.
But it was like just, I think there was just maybe four songs, or I can't remember exactly, but she, we were doing, you know.
That's crazy.
It was really amazing, and it was amazing to be, you know, present at that time. And, but beyond that, you know, just clear on how amazing you were, but also how different you were than, you know, like, because I was doing a lot of shows on, you know, Lower East Side, and it was a lot of voice and guitar stuff, and kind of singer-songwriter stuff, and then, you know, what you were doing was different.
Well, I felt the same way about you.
Oh, really?
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'm a huge fan from, from that record, um, is it a self-titled?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, Martha, when, what year did that come out?
Well, it, it came out in, in, uh, exactly 20 years ago, in 2025, but it felt like it came out like 30 years ago.
Because you were singing those songs, right?
Singing those songs, and it was kind of a long time in the making. It was almost like six or seven years of doing shows and making EPs and a cassette and trying to get signed, and nobody was really signing, or it was just kind of not certain for me. It was kind of, I was a little bit all over the place. So I was singing those songs, and there were a couple of versions of, of some of those songs kind of kicking around from, from EPs and things. So when it finally did come out in 2005, it was sort of like, it was like having, it was like taking a big.
It was like having a baby.
It was a, there you go.
A really big baby.
Really, really big baby.
No, but I remember seeing you play, I, I mean, I'm pretty sure I saw you sing with JC doing one of those tribute shows somewhere, but it wasn't until I really heard your songs and saw you maybe at the living room or something, and I was just in love.
Oh, well, thank you.
Yeah, and I love that album, and I love those songs. It was really, I, I don't know if I've really ever told you this, because it's always kind of crazy when we see each other, and then there's a show, and sound check, and your family.
Yeah, exactly.
You know?
Try getting a word in.
Oh, my God, no.
And try with those guys, yeah.
I just stay and watch. I enjoy watching. But that album was a huge emotional sort of album for me. And so when I was listening back to it to record that song a few months ago, and like, it really took me back.
It was a really important album for me, so. I don't know if I ever really told you that.
Well, I, well, thank you. And, you know, I was so caught up, and sometimes I'm still caught up in sort of the fact that it, you know, did my career like, you know, kind of like, not regrets, but sort of concern about, you know, oh, maybe I should have done things differently, and maybe I would have had more success. Or that I, that kind of overrides the fact that the record was actually pretty good, and a lot of people really, really appreciated and really, really loved it. And I, and the songs. And I was like, well, maybe that was a success of it. And I think it was more successful in many ways than I thought it was. Because we are, you know, when you're starting out, you're just, you're, you just want to be, you know, famous.
And you're like, well, why aren't I on that television show? Or why didn't I, you know, why can't I? And so you're just sort of kind of comparing yourself, or I was, to all these different people around me. And I felt that I was under, underachieving, you know? And that, that that was because of the record or because of who I was as a songwriter wasn't quite good enough and all that stuff. And then, but then you just start to, or at least I have, as I've gotten older, and now I'm singing those songs a lot because it's the 20th anniversary. Is this, these are pretty good songs, and they are, they're lasting. And it was a great time, and it was a great moment. And I did have a great career, you know? And I'm still doing this, you know?
And I'm like, oh, actually, you know, I'm, maybe I was, I should have been more, I guess, more proud of myself or more confident or something.
Don't you wish you could just take those things off of your little baby self and just like? Relax?
Back then?
Yes, I do, although I do think that, yes, I do, because I think that my life would probably, I might have made some better choices. But at the same time, I don't really have any regrets in the sense that a lot of that insecurity and, you know, not feeling good enough, or not feeling pretty, or not feeling, all those things, really did also feed the songs and were the kind of inspiration for the songs. And, and I think a lot of people identified with that, or that was their way, that was, that was a way into the music, too.
Yeah. No, I know what you mean. That makes sense, yeah. But it's one of my favorite albums from that era. It was like my favorite album for a long time. And it was just a huge part of my life. So you should be proud of it.
Thank you very much.
Yeah. I'm proud of it. I'm proud of you.
Thank you. Well, um, thanks.
But anyway, we've, we've played a lot together, but I wanted to see if we should start with something we haven't played together.
Okay.
Would that be fun?
That would be fun.
Okay, "Love Will Be Reborn"?
I love this song.
Okay, good, good.
All right, shall we try?
Yeah, thank you.
Great.
And love will be reborn.
I take the throne and throw away the crown. And weave flowers in my hair from all around. And the injustices I've heard I will swallow. And reform the words to birds to undo the sorrow. And love will be reborn.
Oh, and love will be reborn.
Can you hear my heart, it's calling out your name? Can you hear my heart, it's dying in your flame? The city's gone, it's no longer there. The wall's falling down everywhere. And love will be reborn.
Oh, and love will be, will be born.
And from the ruins there we'll come. A new moon, a newborn sun. We'll drink the dew from the flowers' heads. And ride on winged back to the new land. And love will be reborn.
That was great, thank you. I, you know, I, um, I wrote this song. I had made a record, um, a few records ago, and it was like a classic Martha Waitney record, like, super autobiographical and really in-your-face. And those songs were kind of getting me in trouble. You know, with, with, with my ex-husband, or with whoever, you know what I mean? But specifically that, and then you're just like, I really need to start to become a more, um, a songwriter who's more strategic, you know, and, and writes from a different point of view. And I thought, I should really write a song with somebody, too, because that's really where a lot of successful songs come from.
And I should really try, this attempt at like trying to be more commercial. And so I contacted this friend of mine in England who writes a lot of songs with people, and I said, "Hey, let's, let's try writing a song together." And he's like, "Yeah, no problem," you know? And then I, um, I went over to his house in London, and, um, and we started playing, and he's really, a really good musician, like yourself. And like, really, everything's very fast for him and easy. And, "Oh, let's go to B-flat, more not to..." And I was like, completely intimidated. And I said, "You know what? Give me a little bit of time, let me start something, you know, in my kind of quiet way, like, make sure I have a couple of chords down..." Maybe like a line, maybe a melody and come back. Go to the pub with your family with Sunday.
Go have Sunday dinner or whatever they call it lunch. You know, Sunday boozy lunch for four hours. And then come back. And he went to the pub and I hung out in his London apartment and I had tea and I took a bath and I tried on some of his wife's clothes. And then I was like, okay, I better like get on with working at this point. And I was like, I better get going. And it was a really hard time in my life. I was really depressed and freaked out and sad. I was newly separated and it was a tough, tough situation. And I picked up the guitar and this song just flew out of me, which it never does. And it's like, and it's not that autobiographical.
It is and it isn't, but it's more like imagery of like medieval English imagery and sort of openness. And, and then, and then he showed up and he's like, ready to go. Like, nope, I'm all done. Thanks so much. That was so great.
It was totally worth it. That is so funny.
And I showed him the song. He's like, yeah, you finished the song. I'm like, yep, bye.
That's beautiful. That's perfect.
Yeah, so.
Worth the, the plane ticket.
Exactly, exactly.
But it's funny because you say like, it just fell out and it's kind of imagery. But I found it super personal when I was listening to it.
What I will say about it is that, you know, I, it was a very, very hard time. And I, I was on the road a lot and the kids were with their dad. And we were going through this pretty, really difficult divorce. And I was, you know, I, I, I lost a lot of weight. I looked great.
I think I saw you in that period in Montreal.
You know, and, and I was really, you know, freaked out and really kind of depressed. And, and I was writing some, trying to write songs, but every time I would pick up a guitar, I, it was just so depressing. And so nothing was really coming out. But then I found that, that this song was so positive. I'm like, what is this love will be, where am I coming up with this? And it was almost like. Was sort of like a prayer or a mantra for that it's gonna get, it's gonna be better.
It's gonna be okay.
That's how, how it feels.
So it felt good to sing it.
But not like personal details, but more like I'm going through something and I'm trying to move forward.
Exactly. It's very, it seemed really hopeful to me. So I was like, oh, God.
No, it is. But it's also, yeah, I wanna hug you.
No, thanks.
Both things. And I also think that emotionally got me first, but it's really interesting because the chord structure, you may not have meant to do this, you may have, I don't know, but you think it's an A, but it's really an E.
It's really an E.
But it really feels like it's an A until the end. And then you're like, wait a second, what just happened? That tripped me out. Took me a minute.
Yeah, there's a lot of mystery in the keys of my songs sometimes because I, because I was so, it's not self-taught, but it was something where I didn't really follow the rules of music. And at the time, it was, it made my life harder, not knowing music. But then I think sometimes it creates a kind of a weird mystery in some of the songs that I find kind of interesting now. But definitely, it was not intentional and it's all kind of by happenstance.
I think that's the best, though.
Well.
Hopefully.
I think so. I think when things are a little more thought out or contrived, it's, yeah, you can tell.
Yeah, or, but, but then when you see people who really know what the fuck they're doing, that's always like, okay, that's really good, too.
Yes, but like.
Like yourself, you know what you're doing. I mean.
That's nice. I mean, I think it's better when they throw the rulebook out, though, also.
Right.
And I think, it's like language, you just learn it and then you don't have to think about it.
Well, it was interesting, growing up with musicians, and what I noticed with, with, with my, just my immediate family, my two, my two parents and my, my sibling, and also some other half siblings who played music too, like my sister Lucy, Wayne Wright Roach. I was surprised at how different our understanding and.
How we grasp music is so different.
Really?
You know, like Rufus, and I don't think I'm giving him away by saying this. You know, he'll sit down, he wakes up and sits down and he'll play something over and over and over. And it drives me crazy. I have to leave the house. One of the reasons I left home, but you know, there was just this thing that he needs to do the dinkie, dinkie, dinkie, you know, and it's just, and you can hear and go, ah, and it's like this big voice and I'm like, what? It's such a different way, you know, whereas I'll sit down on the guitar and I'll just kind of, it'll all be about line by line of what is that line saying? Or what is that, you know, so specific that way or trying. And, you know, my mom was a great, like yourself, she played really instinctively and naturally.
She was taught by, by the nuns too, so she had, it was all in there, you know? But she played with a lot of feeling and she could play different instruments. My dad, he just plays the guitar and he really specifically plays his own way. So it's just like, what is it? Isn't it interesting that we all had this totally different relationship with how to learn the instrument and how to play it?
It is interesting because you all have played together in different scenarios. And, you know, they talk about families having this thing where when they sing together, it's just a special thing. And you and Rufus have it to the nth degree. But I find you such different musicians individually.
Absolutely.
Which is so interesting to me. How you come together, when you do come together in those moments, it's like, it's like divine.
Well, I think I had to find my way, you know, in the sense of, I had to be an individual in a family of individuals too, because everybody was so kind of distinctive.
And you're also the youngest.
And I'm the youngest.
That's a whole other thing.
And so I was like, well, if they're doing, if he's doing this, I'm going to take the guitar and go into my room and have this other approach, which, you know, I mean, obviously it sounds a little bit more like my dad and then you can hear the McGaragals in there as well. But you hear also other, many other influences, of course, too. But it was this thing of, the only way that I can
You know, make it in any way is for it also to be distinctive.
Totally.
So you're sort of forced to be distinctive.
Yeah, well, you definitely are. I have always found you to be so unique and, you know, I don't know. I've always just loved what you do in that way.
Oh, him as well.
And but see, but being at so many of your family shows.
Where you all come together, it's just such a such a wild dynamic.
And it's so interesting how, yeah, it is a family full of individuals.
And I had Rufus on the show and he told me that, you know, you would sometimes, you know, everybody would be in the room playing and everybody would be having a party and playing and you would just be upstairs by yourself and and maybe, you know, came to it later. But did you actually come do it later? Were you just up there sort of doing your own thing with music? Or did you ever reject it because you're the youngest in this whole thing?
I was doing it more secretly because I wanted to make sure that I could do something with it before presenting it. And I remember I presented two or three songs to Rufus and Kate. They were sitting together.
Your mother, Kate.
My, yes, sorry, my mom, Kate McGaragall. And so she, it's not, it's not that Rufus was like my father or anything, but they were, it was sort of like presenting to your parents, you know, like, you know.
Because he was older.
He was a little, a little older and he had been playing music already and writing songs and I was his backup singer for his first couple of records. And I didn't resent it. I kind of loved it because it was like really specific and he would give me these really kind of crazy, beautiful parts. But he was, he was forming me as a singer to suit his music.
So I went into my room and would work on these songs, which would take a while, and then I finally presented these two or three really finished songs. And I think that they were both, he and my mom, kind of surprised.
Like, oh, that's what you've been doing, you know? And they were kind of, they had a structure and they had a, you know, and they had a a story to tell. And I think that, you know, my mom in particular was really, you know, impressed and she encouraged me. It was, it felt like, you know, Because he was a few years older than me and he was so driven to do this. You know, it was, the focus was on getting him signed and that was fair because he was working really hard. And, you know, my, my thing was gonna take a little bit longer. I was gonna have to do my own road. I was gonna have to take my own path. Maybe I should have been a folk singer and been more like my parents and, but I, you
know, I was, I was a pain in the ass. I was, I was, I was also a little bit too rock and roll for my own good. And I worked with Rick Turettoff for a couple of years who did Cyndi Lauper and Joan Osborne. And he really wanted to popify and he was so generous and I just kind of fucked it up. But in a way, I just sort of like, I wanna do my own thing. You know, it was gonna, it was just gonna be a longer path.
I, I get that, career-wise maybe, but I don't know if music-wise you fucked it up. Do you feel like you fucked it up musi- musically?
Well, you know, with the-
You did your own thing.
Yeah, I did. I was, I realized that I'm, I really wanna be a songwriter because with, with, you know, with Rick Turettoff, he was, he had worked collaborating, writing songs like for Cyndi and Joan with like five other songwriters. Like those are, they were crafting these songs that were potentially gonna make millions, you know?
And I guess I just wanted to do it my way, you know? And I felt like, no, this, I wrote the song, this is what it's gonna be. And it just sort of, it was a friendly clash, but it was a sort of like, okay, I can't, I'm not going to be the next whatever.
I think that's great.
That's very respectable.
It, it, it feels good now, definitely.
You know, at the time, I worried about it, but it, it feels good now and, and I'm glad to still be. I'm playing shows. Yeah.
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Well, the 20th anniversary has on this song that was when you asked me to do like an extra thing and I, I think I was pretty quick to reply.
Yeah, I was so excited about this.
Yeah, but I would have done any of the songs on that record because I loved it so much, but this song is just so emotional for me. Do you want to do it?
Yes, but I want you to do it.
You want me to do it?
Well, I want to do it, I want to do it together, you know?
Yeah, let's find a way to do it together.
I just love this song so much.
You can go right in.
One, two.
Summer comes and rain falls away.
But the very next day it seems
the snow comes to stay.
And you too will go just like the dog days do.
I'll put on my hat, my gloves, my scarf to keep the cold apart.
But there are no huskless scars for the heart.
Just the cold wind
that leaves its frosted mark.
Don't forget that I will always love you.
Just a reminder to help you pave your pathway.
The fall it cools, the winter it snows. Spring it rains, summer comes and you go.
But in my silly mind, I have gotten married to you.
You're across town.
Don't even have a clue.
All these images that in ten years
I'll run into you and fall right back inside of you.
Just a reminder to help you pave your pathways.
The fall it cools, the winter it snows. Springy rains, summer comes and you go.
So when will we meet next time? And where will it be?
On a platform track?
In an old movie?
Cause time moves in circles and can lead you anywhere.
The fall it cools, the winter it snows.
Beautiful.
Thank you. It is, it's so, this is a really early song, so it's always a, and I'm sure you had this too, it's a good feeling when some of those songs that you write when you're a kid, just hold up, you know?
Yes, agreed.
Kids are smart.
Kids are intuitive.
And I think sometimes, it's funny, as a songwriter, I feel like sometimes you go on different paths of trying to get an emotion, but really, when you're young, it's just so raw and exposed that you can't help it.
Yeah, and then, you know, this is about, you know, leaving a boyfriend of a long time, yeah, a long time being like two years, right?
Yeah, when you're young, that feels like eternity.
It's like, you know, and so it has this kind of seriousness, but then, of course, you know, saying, "Don't forget that I will always love you," you know?
Do you still love him?
Yes and no. Yes and no.
It's funny.
I did for a long time, and you know, it's interesting, the song actually was, you know, I, life really does imitate art, you know, and it was one of those relationships where, you know, he was my boyfriend, then we broke up, but then we just kept on for years getting together anyways, just because we had a connection.
So that's what, and so that, this song applied, and I don't know, maybe I should, I mean, I'm now happily coupled with somebody else, so I don't think I should call this person.
No.
Yeah, to find out.
Yeah. No, that's cool, though. I remember being on tour and listening to this album so much, and you know how, when you're on tour, you can be lonesome sometimes in your head, and this was the first, I feel like it was the first or second tour where iPods were a thing. I could travel with all my music in a way that I could never before. And that was such a special year for me on tour, listening to music. I was like immersed in music, whereas now I'm too distracted.
Yeah, there's no time.
Even though I have it all on my phone.
Even there, it's all on your phone.
There's too much on your phone.
There's too much.
I kind of want to go back to the old, original iPod.
Yeah, I have a one, an iPod that this great producer called Hal Willner, who I'm sure, you know, he gave me. Well, we did a project of Edith PF songs. He wanted me to learn a bunch of Edith PF songs, which I did. And I made a record with him. But he put like 200 songs on an iPod for me. And I have that thing. It's just like my favorite thing ever.
You still have it?
I still have it.
And it still plugs in and works?
It still plugs in and works.
That's great. Do you ever write in French?
I've written a couple of songs in French. I actually wrote a song in French on the piano. And the only time I've ever written on the piano is when I write in French, because I don't write songs in French and I don't play the piano. So I give myself a double, a double.
You're just making it hard for yourself.
I'm just making it hard for myself. It sounds French. I sound like I'm in a trench.
That's too funny. Well, but why, I mean, you grew up in Montreal.
Friend, you grew, I mean, you speak.
We spoke English at home, but my French is pretty good. I went to, I would go to school in French and then we'd speak English at home. But I think.
But it doesn't feel like, like.
Well, I think songwriting is really easier in your first, in your mother tongue. You know what I mean? And I think also with French, it's so, it's such a difficult language that you kind of wanted to, you want to be kind of masterful with it.
Although I would say that my, I liked my, my one song in French, I thought it was pretty good, Failes de malaise, which is Cliffs of Pain in English.
I love that. It rhymes. Well, you get a whole new rhyme scheme, right?
Yes, exactly, exactly. It's, it's fun.
That's cool. I guess I thought, in my mind, I thought it was more even with English for you growing up.
But no, no, I mean, the, the ideal is to speak both, you know, fluently, which I, I can, but one is always more the mother tongue, you know, obviously.
Yeah. And you're in Montreal now?
I am back there, yeah.
Is there a scene of music there that you're in? Or are you too busy?
Oh, yeah, there's a scene. Well, I ran a club for years, a small club, a little club called Ursa, where I was, it was just, it was kind of like The Living Room was, the first one. And I would, would book bands. And I mean, I, me and, you know, also some people that I hired to help, because it was a lot. But except me and my partner, Nico, we totally did the place up. And I was, at the beginning, I was there all the time. And, you know, cooking food and serving food and, and cleaning the toilets and mopping the floors.
Doing it all.
Doing it all. And then after all, I was like, ah, no. And, and, but the main thing that I did there is that, that the pandemic hit after, about a year after we opened. And that was really devastating. But I was also kind of like, I was really tired. So I was kind of relieved to be closed.
Yeah, you needed a break.
Yeah, I needed a break. And, and all these kids, parents, you know, they, there was nowhere for their kids to go in the summer because all the camps were closed. So I started a camp, a kids camp. We were mostly outside in the park because, you know, because of COVID, but we were also inside sometimes. And I would teach them music. And then I would hire, you know, some other people. I couldn't do it all day long. So they would do other things, go to the park, have some physical activities and do some, you know, tie dye, do whatever, all sorts of things. But I would do about two hours of music a day. And I really enjoyed it. And I've kept that going. I have a choir, small children.
Oh, the littles.
The little ones.
It's really hard to find that for kids. Because I grew up in a church choir.
And I was trying to find a choir for my kids that was, you know, when they were under six.
And it was impossible to find.
So the kids that I have are four and a half to, they range, four and a half to 12. But you know, I'm not a choir master. So I, you know, at all, but I know some songs and I like to sing. So I, I either use a guitar or else I also have a friend of mine who was a, worked as a piano player in a real choir who can really help with the, you know, do all the vocal exercises and everything and have a seriousness to it. And then I can just sort of be like, let's do, let's do David Bowie.
That's so cool.
Or you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah.
That's rad. I wish I, I wish we were in the same city.
I would come.
Good.
Listen.
Yeah, I might need you to like, take over on Mondays.
Heck, yeah. Yeah, I would do it. I grew up in choir and I feel like it's a real thing that not everybody shares who sings.
And did you sing in choirs or was it more of a family thing?
Oh, at school, only at school.
But I think what I, what it was is that I was trying to get my kids to, to sing. And so I started these choirs, but now like my, my 11 year old has absolutely zero interest. Even though a bunch of his friends are at it, he's like, ugh.
It's a nightmare to him.
But do you think he's secretly writing songs in his room?
Hmm.
I guess you don't know yet.
I don't know yet. I don't know. Well, I'll find out.
Yeah. Yeah. My kids are, they, they pretend they're not interested either.
Oh, yeah.
But maybe they're really not.
Maybe, yeah, exactly.
Maybe they're really not.
I can't tell either.
I can't either.
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From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. Imagine your business depends on a system you didn't build and don't fully control. For years, it works perfectly. It's fast, reliable, affordable. So over time, more and more of your operations rely on it. Then one day, the terms change. What once felt flexible now feels difficult to leave. Moving to another provider or bringing those capabilities back under your own control could take years, cost millions, and disrupt the business in the process. That's the challenge of digital sovereignty. Businesses today rely on all sorts of third-party systems: cloud platforms, data pipelines,
AI models, software tools. Most days, these systems operate quietly in the background. But when something changes, like costs go up or rules shift, organizations are forced to confront how much control and flexibility they actually have. So to understand the challenge up close, I traveled to Paris to speak with IBM's Anna Paola Assis and Acts as CIO, Giovanni Doniello, two people who think about these questions every day. Hear the full conversation at ibm.com/smarttalks or wherever you get your podcasts.
You want to do a song from your last album, maybe?
Body and Soul?
Oh, yeah. Let's do that.
This is from, it came out like last year?
A little before. A little bit before.
A few years ago. It takes me a while to put out records because I tour a lot, but also, you know, I always say like 12 or plus, Martha Wayne writes songs is a lot. We don't need that every year, like in the sense that they're very intense, you know?
Yeah, they're intense.
They're kind of intense songs, you know?
They are intense songs.
But do you feel like that's all you got is every few years, a collection?
I just don't.
Or do you have a lot of stuff that ends up not coming out?
No, I don't. I mean, I have like bits that I, that don't end up being worked on. But no, I don't, I don't, I don't have a good discipline. I don't write every day. So I, I don't have a stack of songs. But they're, maybe that's why some of them are kind of intense, because it seems like all that energy is going into one.
And do you sing every day?
Only when working on the road. But I end up singing every day because I work a lot.
Yeah, no, I mean, when you're home, not working.
Yeah, me neither.
I don't, I wouldn't touch anything.
No, and I don't play an instrument either.
I feel, I forget to sing.
I feel really bad about, and what I end up getting really antsy, like when I'm not touring and I'm just at home for several months, you know, taking care of the kids or I'm doing life stuff, then I, I start to get kind of like nervous and then I realize, oh, my God, I haven't, I'm not practicing. I haven't written a song, I'm not singing, I'm playing. So I say, oh, no, this is crazy. And I, I actually, because I have such a hard time writing at home, because then you're like looking at the piles of laundry or the emails that need to get done or whatever. So I started renting a cabin in, up in Woodstock, just to kind of get away. And I'll go there for like three or four days.
Oh, that's cool.
Just trying to like five, six hours a day, just the guitar, like no recording devices.
No, just to write and play.
Yeah. Yeah, piece of pencil and pen.
Wow.
Pencil and pen, pencil and paper and, you know, voice memo if maybe, but.
That's cool. That's good that you have that.
Sort of.
Yeah, it's easy to forget. I forgot to sing to my children when they were little babies. My mom was like, what are you singing them to sleep? And I was like, I don't remember. I forgot to sing.
I know.
I'm so tired.
I just.
I'm not singing.
And I, my eldest kind of liked singing. He was OK with it, but my youngest, I remember I was, I was holding the baby in my arms, you know, and I'm like, you know, sort of like this, looking down and singing, you know, a little lullaby, humming something. And his little hand came up and put it on my mouth. Like, shut up. And I was like, OK.
He's a black sheep. Yeah, he's definitely not into it.
Beautiful little hand coming towards me and right on my lips, like, stop.
Message received. That's too funny. Yeah, sometimes I'll sing around the house, maybe because I'm trying to learn something, because usually I don't. But, um, and my, my kids would be like, mommy, stop singing. I was like, man, if only you knew.
Exactly.
This is, should be cool.
This is for people.
Some people pay me to do this.
Putting the bread and butter on the table.
Damn it.
Do you want to go to camp this summer? Do you want to go to camp? No, they don't. They don't ever want to go to camp. Oh, my God. You're gonna have to send them to camp if you don't let Mom work. You're gonna have to work at camp. I will sing.
Okay, I have to tune this thing down. Oh, do you use open tuning on it? It's a kind of a fake open tuning. Yeah, I turn, I drop the E down to a D. Oh, that's it. And both E's go down to a D. Nice.
Run into the chapel, yeah.
Light up every candle, yeah.
I fall to my knees and say, "God, please, what can I do?"
Ninety seconds later, yeah. Both hands round my neck, I "I plead, oh man, take your hands off." "What can I do?"
"I've got a need hundred of a relic to go."
"I've got a need hundred of a relic to go." They ask me if you call as the phone. Instead, I tell them I dream.
You're lying
You're dying Oh, I'm holding your hand But I wanna let go But ya, you're crying
Oh, I'm screaming My fingers are slipping, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah Oh, I wanna let go
I put my body and soul I put my body and soul I put my body and soul
Ninety days later, yeah
Running to the chapel, yeah Oh, I can't, can I take the, can I take the kids' shoes? I'm living the blues
I changed my locks, I changed my number
I'm living in a slow mo
I started smoking again, oh
I had another dream
What you say?
Uh, we're touching.
Oh, I'm touching you, you're touching me. I'm touching, I'm touching you. I'm touching you, I'm touching you. Oh, oh, oh, but I, I'm leaving.
I'm screaming.
All my fingers are slay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I wanna let go. Whoa, whoa, oh, yeah. My body and soul. Oh, yeah. My body and soul. Oh, my body. Don't fuck with my kids, you can take my money. Take my house, you can take my honey. Your angry inch got some mighty punch, but whoa. I got my body and soul, soul, soul, soul. I got my body, don't fuck with my kids.
You can take my money, you can take my house, you can take my honey. Your angry inch got some mighty punch, but whoa. I got my body and soul, soul, soul, soul, soul. I'm not a fool.
I got my body and soul, yeah.
I got my body and soul.
Yeah, I mean, it's not an easy song, but it's fun.
It is not an easy song, but it's actually kind of a free song as well.
Oh, yeah, it's very free.
Super free.
And it's hard, as I was going, I was like, oh, I definitely don't play these songs, especially that one, like, they are exactly on the record, because it was really like a performance.
It was.
Yeah, it's definitely a performance.
Which you can hear, you know, in the recording.
And it was your thing, yeah.
Yeah, so it's more that kind of like, whoa, here we go.
I think I found you, I think I found it.
You did, you did.
But what a great song.
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, I love this one.
Thanks so much.
It's a journey.
It is a journey.
Yeah, it really is.
It is a journey, and, um...
And I love the way it ends, too.
Yes, exactly.
"Don't fuck with my kids, you can take my money." I love that part.
It's, you know, it's, um, it's a personal song, but it's also a little bit on the extreme side, you know, I think, you know, it sort of references maybe some, um, you know, aspects of abuse, you know, and I, and so I don't, I always worry that people think that I, you know, that I'm saying something, that I'm, that I'm revealing something, but that's, that's, um, it's not exactly the case, but I did definitely, you know, I think all of us, not all of us, but sometimes, um, I have had this feeling like of, maybe I was more of a victim than I really realized in some ways, or something.
You know, but then also trying to, you know, don't do that, you know, like, you know, take control of the situation.
Yeah. I think this is the time in our lives where we all are realizing that stuff, right?
Yeah, especially raising kids and seeing things.
Through different eyes.
You know. Yeah. Well, it's a deep song and it's intense. And I love it.
Oh, good.
I love it. I think it's funny what you said about Martha Wayne's right songs are intense. And you can only handle 12 every year.
Yeah, exactly. You wouldn't want one of these records like every year. You'd be like, oh, my God.
I don't know. It feels pretty good to hear it.
Oh, well, good. Well, thanks, you know. And, you know, I had to, I tour a lot and I play a lot. Because it's all, these are kind of also songs that you go out to see live, too.
Yes, they're very live songs.
So it's not always like, you know, they're not like tuned it on in the radio and you have it in the background. You know what I mean? These are those kinds of albums where it is kind of a little bit more, you know, of an emotional journey. And that is really oftentimes like really, although I love recording, you know, and I have fun with it. But I, really, we get down to the, to the, to the nitty gritty when we're, when, when I'm on the road. And also, it's fun just playing them on the guitar because they're all written this way. But oftentimes, you know, not often, but sometimes I have musicians and, you know, on the records, there's backups and there's sounds and there's, and it's fun and it's great. But I, that's not how they are written. And it's certainly not always how they're performed.
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If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.
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Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. Imagine your business depends on a system you didn't build and don't fully control. For years, it works perfectly. It's fast, reliable, affordable, so over time, more and more of your operations rely on it. Then, one day, the terms change. What once felt flexible now feels difficult to leave. Moving to another provider or bringing those capabilities back under your own control could take years, cost millions, and disrupt the business in the process. That's the challenge of digital sovereignty. Businesses today rely on all sorts of third-party systems: cloud platforms, data pipelines,
AI models, software tools. Most days, these systems operate quietly in the background. But when something changes, like costs go up or rules shift, organizations are forced to confront how much control and flexibility they actually have. So to understand the challenge up close, I traveled to Paris to speak with IBM's Anapola Assis and Axas CIO, Giovanni Daniele, two people who think about these questions every day. Hear the full conversation at ibm.com/smarttalks or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you do a lot of covers?
I do. I do.
I know you do the P off stuff.
Yeah, I did the P off stuff. Right now, I'm working with this woman named Karen Hopkins, who used to run BAM. And she is a huge Laura Nero fan.
Oh, I love Laura Nero.
And she's been for 10 years trying to get me to sing Laura Nero. And we would be out in Montaca Rufus's house at dinner, and she'd be like, Martha, you have to sing Laura Nero. And I would just kind of roll my eyes and get annoyed, like, why can't she book me? Like, I want to play at the BAM. Why do I have to sing Laura Nero? And she finally convinced me to do it after years of kind of badgering me about it. And I started listening to the music and it's really fucking hard.
It's really hard.
It's really hard. It's really hard to sing. I'm not playing the piano. I'm just singing. Thomas Bartlett's playing the piano and we're trying to become one.
Because the piano is such an important part of it. But that's really hard.
And it's kicking me in the ass.
So you're doing like a whole show of all her catalog?
We're doing 10 songs. It's like Martha's songs. You don't want, more than 10. I'm like, oh my god.
They're intense, too, yes.
They're intense and her vocal range is crazy.
Some of them, you just want to do exactly as she did them because you're like, how could you even do this differently? And then other ones are like, let's change the feel on this a bit, but I'm gonna need vocal rest. I'm gonna need, but that's gonna be like a run, you know, which I'm also sometimes excited about. I played Vegas recently for the first time and I was kind of like, I did not like Vegas per se, but I was like, you can kind of see why people would want to do like a nightly show.
Yeah. You could just do it.
You just do it.
Go hit the crap tables and just hang out.
Yeah, I don't know if I could do that.
But do you ever do runs, like three nights or?
I mean, anytime I do a gig in New York, I used to do so many bars, you know, with all the, our mutuals and like, and I feel like now I'm just tired every night. And when I'm home, I just want to go to bed.
But then we're in New York City and I could have a gig every week, maybe, or a few nights a week. And then that just like gets me stressed.
Right? But being on the road somehow.
Oh, no, it makes it much easier. It makes more sense.
You're in that mode.
Yeah, it makes more sense, yeah.
So, yeah. Do you do a lot of local gigs in Montreal?
Never, right?
No, no.
Yeah, okay.
It's hell.
Yeah, it's just like, then you're actually feeding the kids dinner and having to go to a gig.
Exactly, totally.
Instead of just in gig mode.
Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. It's a weird double life.
It is.
Well, thanks for joining me.
Yeah, thank you so much.
Do you want to do one more song?
Sure, absolutely.
We had talked about doing Talk to Me of Mendocino.
Oh, yes. Oh, my god, I'm gonna put this guitar down.
This is your mother's song?
This is my mom's song, but also you sang this song.
When we did, when my mom died 15 years ago, Rufus and I did a couple of concerts and had the most incredible singers singing these incredible songs. And you sang this song and it just, it made it easier, you know, and to see her music go on and to have you sing it was just like really, really, really moving. So, thank you for doing that.
It's, I mean, it's a beautiful song and I was honored to be asked. I grew up with this song.
Yeah. So, I already loved it.
Before I met all of you.
Which is also special to me. And then getting to meet your mom at those few shows. You know? And she, she told me she wished her name was Nora.
That's right.
Which was so cute. She like grew up that way.
So, she, when she was, she was a bit of a naughty child. She, I think, they called it Saint Vitus Dance. Sounds like she had ADHD.
Yeah, probably.
They called it Saint Vitus Dance, or the nuns did. So, she was, she was a rascal or whatever, but she always wanted to be named Nora. Her name was Kate. And my grandmother, her mom, Yabby, would say, "Now, if you are good, you can be Nora." So, she had this alter ego where she was a good child, like a nice, sweet child. And then they would call her Nora. And be like, "Now, we want to talk to Nora now," you know? And then that's how she was able to be Nora, was by being good. And Kate was bad.
Oh, no. There's some deep psychological shit in there.
Her first email was Nora wannabe.
She told me that and that made me laugh so much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was so sweet.
Do you do her music ever when you're playing?
I do nightly, almost. It seems silly for me to be up on stage and not do a Kate Nana song because I can, you know, because they're just so great.
They are great, yeah.
So I'm like, why wouldn't I?
But it must be a nice connection to have.
Of course. It's just such a... It's a way to feel a little closer to her, but also to also just celebrate her.
And them, the two of them.
It's beautiful.
I bid farewell to the state of old New York, my home away from home.
The state of New York I came of age when first I started roaming. And the trees grow high in New York State and they shine like gold in autumn.
Never had the blues from whence I came, but in New York State I caught 'em.
Talk to me of Mendocino, but closing my eyes I hear the sea. Must I wait? Must I follow? Won't you say, "Come with me"?
And it's on to South Bend, Indiana. Flight out on the western plains. Rise up over the Rockies and download into California. Out to where but the rocks remain. Let the sun set on the ocean. I will watch it from the shore. Let the sun rise over the redwoods.
I'll rise with it till I rise no more. Talk to me of Mendocino. Closing my eyes, I hear the sea. Must I wait? Must I follow? Won't you say, "Come with me"? Won't you say, "Come with me"?
Won't you say, "Come with me"?
Beautiful. I might have cried a little on the inside.
Oh, good, good.
Love you very much.
I love you too.
And, um, thank you so much.
Honored to have you here.
Well, right back at you.
Yay.
Yay!
Oh, that was so nice. It was so nice to see her and sing with her.
So amazing. Ooh, goosebumpy.
Yeah, she's the best. If you want to know the songs we played in this episode, the first one was "Love Will Be Reborn", from the album Love Will Be Reborn in 2021. The second song, one of my personal faves, was "Don't Forget", from her album, self-titled Martha Wainwright, which was released in 2005. The third song is "Body and Soul", from Love Will Be Reborn as well, 2021. The fourth song, another one of my favorite songs of all time, was "Talk To Me" of Mendocino, which was written by her mother Kate McGarrigal and released on Kate and Anna McGarrigal's self-titled album from 1975. It was also recorded and released by Linda Ronstadt on "Heart Like a Wheel", which was released in 1974. Special thanks to Martha Wainwright for joining us today.
And we'll be back next week with "The War and Treaty". Norah Jones is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Visit Norah Jones' channel and be sure to subscribe while you're there. I'm your host, Norah Jones. Recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Frye, photography by Shirvin Lenez, produced by Norah Jones and Sarah Oda, executive producers Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runtog, marketing lead Queen and Aki. Thanks a lot. See you later.
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