Norah Jones Is Playing Along
Original podcast
Singer-songwriter Richard Julian joins Norah for a chat between longtime friends and bandmates in The Little Willies.
11,959 words · 8 speakers
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Hey, I'm Norah Jones. And today, I'm playing along with my old pal, Richard Julian.
I'm just playing along with you.
Richard Julian. Richard Julian. Richard Julian. Hi, I'm Norah Jones. And with me today is Sarah Oda.
Hello.
Today, we have Richard Julian on the show, who is one of my oldest friends in the world.
Yes. If you don't know him, he's a singer-songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, a wordsmith.
He's a great songwriter.
Yeah, he is. He's been putting out music for decades. He always has really memorable lyrics, and he has this really distinct style that draws you in. He just put out his new album last year in 2025 called Hit and Run, where he leans more into keyboard and piano, and it features several great musicians. You can find out more on his website, richardjulianmusic.net. And he's also in a band with you.
Yes. Little Willy's, we started this band in the early 2000s, where we did cover songs by Willie Nelson and others.
And when he's not performing, he also owns a very popular music venue in Brooklyn.
Yes.
Called Barlunatico. You gotta check it out.
Yeah, if you're in the city looking for something cool to do, they have great food, great cocktails, and also incredible music. Every musician in the city loves playing there.
Yeah, and Richard sort of curates that super eclectic roster of people from all over the place, so.
Yeah.
Very popular.
And we love him. Please enjoy our show. I hope you like it. We had a great time playing music together. It's actually been a really long time since we've gotten to do that, so it was really special. Have fun listening to Richard Julia.
I'm so weird about people reading stuff that I haven't edited down.
Oh, really?
Yeah. And, but a long time ago, I was, when Leonard Cohen had released "The Future," that record, "The Future," he did a thing, there was a thing in Vanity Fair, and there was a song of his on that record called "Democracy," which I thought was pretty amazing. And he shared his lyrics, like his sheets, you know?
Wow.
Because he used to keep a lot, he used to write verses over and over again. And I was amazed how, you know, like some of the stuff just wasn't good, like, because he was like a hero.
That he hadn't used?
Yeah, the stuff, and he was generous enough to share it, and it made me feel good. Like, I was like, oh, cool. I'm not the only one that writes this.
I want to, I want to read that.
This stuff. But, um.
Yeah, I saved it. I actually have the original thing of it because I saved it and stuck it inside my Leonard Cohen book.
You should show me.
I will.
You think that he's... Everything just came out golden eggs with him or something?
Well, it all turned out like that. But he really worked it from almost nothing. I mean, the original ideas, you could only imagine that only he saw where they were going, like how good they could be, you know?
Yeah, that's cool. That's cool to see.
You want to play this song?
Yeah, let's do it. Are we... I thought we weren't going to rehearse, though. We're just going to try to dive in?
Let's just try it.
Yeah, okay.
Let's see what happens.
All right.
Wait, wait, start over? Ready. Woo!
Mama done told me when I was just a pup. Boy, get back inside that house and bundle up. Cover up your neck, cover up your big head, too. And bring an extra layer.
Mama done told me.
Bring an extra layer.
Bring an extra layer. You don't know what the weather's gonna do.
Papa done told me later in my prime as he was looking up and down my funny Valentine. Give it to the count of one,否则它会杀死你 I better bring an extra layer.
Papa done told me.
Bring an extra layer. Don't forget the thing mama said.
Bring the extra layer, bring the extra layer. The layer, the layer. Bring the extra layer.
We're living in a movie That you all seen before And here come the scene with a body on the floor Son, you never listen It's just the way you be Did you bring the extra layer?
Mama done told you
Did you bring the extra layer?
The extra layer!
No, no you didn't It's what we call a fa A complete Bring the extra layer Bring the extra layer The layer, the layer Bring the extra layer
Bring the extra layer Bring the extra layer The layer, the layer Bring the extra layer
Mama done told you Bring the extra layer Bring it
Wish I had a tambourine to shake
Yeah That would work
That was awesome That was fun
A lot of fun
When did you turn into a New Orleans piano player?
When I moved to New Orleans
Yeah, that's so fun
You know, down there, when I was living in the bywater, one thing really captivated me was I heard piano everywhere. There's a lot of piano players and...
You just hear piano everywhere. You know, you walk down the street somewhere and someone's playing a piano.
And I was one of those people playing the piano.
Did you guys have a piano down there?
Same one I have in my apartment in Brooklyn. I brought it back up. It's just a crappy piano. I actually have to get rid of it. It's really, it's, it's, it takes a lot of work to keep it together, but.
Got some songs out of it, though.
Yeah. We had a U-Haul and we went out to Metairie. And while we still had the U-Haul, I said, let's get on Craigslist and find a piano today. Bought the first one we saw. This guy said, yeah, it's right in my garage. You can put it right in the U-Haul.
Perfect.
I figured he would help me out. I went out there. He was in a wheelchair.
Aww.
And like about seventy-five, eighty years old. And we found all these photographs of him inside the piano bench when we got it home. Old photos of him in the fifties at like sock hops and stuff, like dancing. Yeah, some of them are hanging in Lunatico.
You didn't give them back to him?
No, we, we, we didn't. We didn't find them until way later, you know? So that was one of those things. Sorry. Now I feel bad. It was a kind of a fun story.
Sorry, I made it weird.
That's my job, Richard. That's our relationship.
But, uh, yeah, you know? And I got into playing piano there.
That's cool. I love it. You're so good at it. Also, did you get really, um, when Henry Butler was around the club?
Hmm.
Were you into, you know?
Henry didn't show me anything.
He didn't show you anything? But did he just inspire you a little?
He, I mean, he did in other wa, not in piano ways. If anything, Henry would make me wanna not ever play piano. He's, I mean, he was just so incredible. But he was, uh, he was such an incredible artist, you know? On, on every level. He was really, he had taken that New Orleans thing and had really taken it really far out, you know? It was like, it had, he had some of that gut bucket in it, in his playing, but it was almost, I thought of him more as a classical musician.
It was like really austere and, you know, so, yeah.
Is this weird?
No.
Sitting here being interviewed by someone you've known for-
I thought it would be. I've known you for so long and I thought, wow, how are you gonna interview me? Like, you know, you already know everything.
I literally know everything about you.
How could you have any questions?
What, how long have we known each other? Twenty-four?
I met you-
Twenty-five years almost.
In 1998.
What?
That's insane. I was eighteen?
That's crazy.
You were.
Yeah, and I had my big old Cadillac.
The big Cadillac.
That car was incredible.
Well, so do you know that whenever you and Jesse Harris came down to Texas, I was in college?
And you guys came down with your friends who were doing a clinic at my college?
Yup.
And-
Not just friends.
Kurt Rosenwinkel.
And Kenny-
Kenny Wallison.
Yeah, and Steve Kardnis, who was my roommate at the time.
Yeah, so you guys were just driving cross-country, right?
We were driving across the country. I remember being in Virginia at a gas station and Jesse going to a payphone. Remember payphones?
Oh, I do, yes.
And him, he, this is how we found out that those guys were gonna be down there. He was mixing a record and he had to call Jesse Murphy for something. And Jesse Murphy said, "Oh, are you guys passing through Texas? Because those guys are down there."
Oh, wow.
And we said, "Oh, we are passing through Texas."
By chance.
We went through, well, we were just on a, on a crazy trip, you know? We were in, and, uh, we went through New Orleans and we went to, uh, Houston the night before and then we drove up there and that's when we met you.
So I was told by the, the head of the department, because I had the Cadillac. That's the whole reason I met you.
I know.
Yeah, because I had room in my trunk for all the gear. And so they said, "Go pick up these musicians. You have room for all the stuff at the hotel." So I went and picked them up and I met you guys too. And we, we had just such a magical twenty-four hours of like-
We really did.
Hanging out and, um, but I remember sitting in the audience when they were doing-
We all fell in love.
Yeah, we did. We fell in love with each other. Uh, I was sitting in the audience, uh, they were about to start the sort of performance clinic and you guys were sitting next to me. And I said, "So what do you guys do?" And you guys- Looked at me and he said, oh, we're songwriters. And it was the first time I'd ever even thought about that.
Being a thing.
Right.
Isn't that funny?
It is. Yeah, no, that's, it's funny how these things at some point.
You know.
You didn't say we're musicians. Oh, we're singer-songwriters. You just said, we're songwriters.
We're songwriters, yeah.
Which I thought was also really ballsy. A great way to like, just be like, we're songwriters, bitch.
I don't know, we thought like that, but I remember we went to a record store and I asked you, I said, well, what are you doing here in this college? You said, oh, I'm studying voice and piano.
And then I saw a record, we were at a vintage record shop or used record shop that you took us to.
Yeah, because I was cool.
And they had the-
Where I was trying to make you think I was cool.
They had the Tony Bennett, Bill Evans record.
Yep, you bought it for me.
And, yeah, but you knew it already.
Oh, I already knew it, yeah.
I said, you know this record? You're studying voice and piano. You should know this record. And you said, oh, yeah. And then you sang a small line of Touch of Your Lips.
Uh huh.
Like you said, oh, yeah, that's, yeah. And I was like, oh, she's got a good voice.
Really?
You heard me sing in the record store?
I knew right then that you could really sing.
Kurt Rosenwinkel, um, also, he bought me Shirley Horn, You Won't Forget Me at that store.
Oh, right on.
Which is an incredible record, which I didn't know.
And you didn't forget him or it?
I did not forget it or him. It was really cool, though, you guys. It was all, all very like, um, sweet and-
It was amazing.
Mentory and not creepy at all. I told, I, we went on the golf course that night.
The golf course, yeah.
And we, we jammed. We like-
Yep.
Yeah, and then I told my mom the next day.
But you didn't jam.
I sang.
We, no, we had to ask you to sing, though.
Yeah, you were really just like, you were just vibing and hanging out. We played a long time, I remember, before I said, hey, you sing, why don't you sing a song?
I was probably shy.
No, you sang. You sounded so good.
I sang Come Rain or Come Shine.
Yes, you did. That's the one.
Yeah, and, and I kept calling the chord changes out to Steve.
He didn't know it?
No, he did. I just was a weirdo. I, I think because I was doing it in a different key.
You're like, four?
Four.
Two murders.
Diminished.
And I told my mom.
Oh, that's classic.
I know, and I told my mom the next day I called her, I was like, "Oh, my God, this amazing thing happened. These guys from New York came, they're these musicians, and we all hung out on the golf course on that." And she was like, "What? That's horrible." She just thought it sounded creepy, you know?
It was funny.
Well, everybody was in love with you. She was probably right.
It felt very innocent to me and not...
It was innocent.
It felt...
We had such a great time.
It was so sweet. All right.
We used to talk about it. Even before you moved to New York, we were like, "Remember that night in Texas with that girl, Nora? That was so much fun."
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If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment
that made them who they are today. Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
We did it dirty.
We did it sweet.
And in the morning, found somewhere to eat.
Over pancakes,
scrambled eggs.
You draped your feet across my legs.
I draped my feet across your legs.
And it was so nice
to feel your touch.
I didn't know you very well.
I didn't know you, but anyone could tell.
You had some secrets
to protect
and some hangups to project.
We all have hangups to project.
It was so nice
And so we tried to make the conversation last.
Politics.
Movies and jazz.
I got lost up in my head the way I do.
Where it occurred to me that maybe I was through.
And maybe I was too.
So I didn't know who Jimmy Jufry was.
That's alright, no one ever does.
It would be false of us to blame it all on that.
The heart is fickle like a cat.
You're so nice.
Sure was nice.
Oh, it sure was oh so nice to feel your touch.
That was so pretty.
I think I need a cigarette.
So anyway.
Anyway.
I lived in Cleveland for a while and...
That was nice. I like your songs, they get in there. They really get in there to that thing.
You always have had that. You get it, you get inside the dirty.
The dirty stuff.
The dirty stuff, both, uh, both, both meanings implied.
You know, I really, I always loved Prince a lot. And Prince's music can get really dirty and I like the way he writes about it. Like that song, uh, "If I Was Your Girlfriend", you know that song? So it's like, it's that psychological, it's the, it's the weird stuff, you know, that he gets into. And he writes about it really well, very, it's like very psychological.
And, I mean, I'm not Prince, I'm not funky like that. And so it's, it's weird to take stuff like that and put it into a, into like a softer, you know, kind of setting.
It requires a different set of rules, I think.
But yeah, I thought this tune kinda hit some stuff.
I thought it was, yeah, it could be a Willie's tune for sure.
Yeah. Also, the changes kinda get into that. Kinda reminded me of that Christopherson tune and like.
Oh, right on. Yeah. Yeah, it has a little bit of that movement. It's like a long form.
Um, I'm so glad you're writing songs and you made this new album because there was kind of a spell where you weren't writing as much.
Because, I mean, you opened a bar.
You opened a venue. How old is Lunatica now?
It's nine years old this month.
That's a lot of work.
Small business and the pandemic, small business.
Pandemic, small business, and also can't emphasize enough having a kid.
I think that was more.
He's 11?
He's 11 now. That was more interrupting of my creative flow than the bar.
Because the space your brain needs to be creative isn't there when you have a kid.
The space in your brain, they need it, they require it.
It's constant brain interruption, right?
I had a period of time, when I opened the bar, you know, Lunatica is a very creative place and just even designing it or, you know, even thinking of cocktails, like, well, let's design a new cocktail. For a while, I fooled myself into thinking that it was on par with music. Like, I thought, well, you know what? I just need a creative outlet and this is creative. So who cares if I'm writing songs? Plus, I wrote so many songs, I thought, I'll just do my old songs. I got, I had a lot of songs, I don't need any new, any new songs. And then I did, I, I fooled myself with that for about two years and then I had a string of dates, I think it was in Japan. I got like a little offer to go over there and do some stuff
and I was performing every night and I thought, oh, no, no, this is, this is what, this is next level, you know? I forgot how powerful it feels to get all that stuff out and do it in a room full of people. But I couldn't get the writing thing back. I just couldn't do it. And finally, I was playing a show at Lunatica one night and I was doing that song, you might remember that song, "Your Friend John", that I used to do, yeah.
I know all your songs.
Yeah, I was doing that song and it's kind of, it's, it's a little bit of a mean song, you know? And I was up there playing it.
And I realized that I didn't want to sing it anymore and that I didn't like the person in the song.
And I was, yeah.
You didn't like the way you were in the song.
I didn't like myself and I was having a sort of emotional crisis while I was performing during the set.
Crazy.
And I revealed it to Chris Morrissey after the, after we were done performing. The set went well. We had a good audience. People liked it. It wasn't, it wasn't that the gig was bad.
It's a funny song. I feel like it's the kind of song the crowd will respond to.
And Chris said, and I told him, I said, man, I'm feeling really weird singing these songs. I'm just not, I don't want to sing my songs anymore.
So all of them?
Pretty much all of them. Now I'm learning which ones I still want to sing, but Chris said, he said, yeah, you're not really that guy anymore, you know?
Funny.
He got, he got, he just said it like instantly while I was telling him and I thought, wow, I have to write new songs.
I, I think that is a very true thing though that happens. I have songs like that where I just don't really like.
I don't, I can't embody them anymore.
Cause I don't feel the same way.
You know?
There was somebody, I'm not going to say a name, but there's a person who I think is really incredibly talented, very famous person writes songs, but I don't, I don't like his persona in the songs. You know, songs can be different too. They can come from a different part of your personality. Maybe he's, maybe he's not. Maybe that's just a side, you know, way that he thinks. But it's funny, some of his most beautiful songs even, when you get down to the lyrical content and what they're actually saying, they're like, it's like, whoa dude, don't say that.
Like, why are you saying that?
I could see, I could see that about your friend John maybe.
Yeah, that's the way I felt about it.
It's just snarky. It's like a snarky dude.
It's too snarky and I just didn't feel like doing it anymore. So I started, I knew I couldn't just start writing songs again like that because my songwriting process is so long. It takes me so long to finish a song. So I, I set my alarm at 7:00 AM every single day.
After that?
Through 2022 and I woke up and worked for three hours and it was amazing and it made me feel like, not only I was getting productive work done, some days better than others, obviously, but when I could get a song going and have it in my head, even when I was working throughout the rest of the day and not songwriting, I felt like. A more enjoyable person to be around.
Because you felt like you got your, it's like exercising or something. You got your thing done.
Yeah, it really was a big sea change.
That's cool, and I think also writing on a different instrument is a really good way to get yourself back into the game.
Yes, yeah, something.
Something different.
Coming from the outside.
You're coming from a totally different place and you're going towards different chord changes and.
Yeah, yep.
I think that's helpful.
Big time.
Was that the first time you've ever had a long sort of period where you didn't write? Really?
Well, that long, yeah. I mean, it was years. I didn't write songs for, because I did Fleur de Lieve, the record I did in New Orleans. That was the last time I was writing songs was when I was in New Orleans. That was like 2011 and I didn't start these until 2021-ish, 22-ish, I guess.
So, yeah, it's like 10 years.
That's insane.
Yeah, a whole decade.
That's crazy, but you got a lot done during that decade as well.
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter.
A thriving, small business with the coolest collection of music, you know?
That's another thing. You were talking about writing on a different instrument, but another thing was watching the music scene come through my house every single day and the humble, the humbling aspect of that, and I mean that in a positive way, just that the music scene here is just incredible. And you, you can put your own talents into a context that I think is, is, it's humbling in a beneficial way, you know? It reminds you to just keep things straight.
Yeah, don't try to.
Yeah, don't try too hard.
Don't try to be somebody you're not.
Exactly, know your limitations, stay, stay in there and be your best, you know?
Yeah, but let it trickle in and sort of color things as well.
Oh, yeah, definitely.
You gotta be open.
Yeah, big time.
You have the coolest, like curated, I mean, I'm sure it's curated. How much of the bands that come through Unatiko is just by chance? I mean, is it all completely curated?
At this point, it's pretty curated, yeah.
But it's totally all over the place.
It's everywhere, yeah. Well, you know, it's, some of that's a business move too. Because we, you know, are, if you stand outside the club, you'll notice all the storefronts are shuttered, you know, to the right. We're not near a subway station. It's all destination traffic. There's no walk by traffic. When the place is packed. Which it is fortunately very often, it's all people that have come from somewhere, even if it's from blocks away and they've decided that that is their destination.
Interesting, yeah.
So, I don't have enough, you know, the club doesn't have enough fanbase to just be like a stylistic, like I can't put on the same thing every night.
Yeah, so it's completely different. You have Brazilian bands.
Yes. We subdivide our following into various demographics of which I've identified seven.
Yeah. And ideally, I'm hitting all seven of those weekly. Ideally, like if you want to, like, some people came to hear me the other night because I played. I only play there twice a year because I've determined that's all I'm good for on a business level.
You can only draw twice a day.
Yeah, I can draw twice. So, I play there twice a year and like the people that came, you know, to my show, they're not going to be at Ammar Marshall's show the night before.
Okay, and what kind of show is that?
Ammar, who I think is amazing. Ammar is a drummer, African-American drummer, who always brings an incredible group. He has a, he's a great jazz drummer. He plays with Marcus Miller, and he gets that kind of work, but he, he has more of like a hip-hop kind of vibe in his playing. And he has a number of bands, one that has Robbie Coltrane, one that has Jaleel Shaw, but he, this one band he has comes up from Philadelphia. It's all Philly guys who I've never heard of. This bass player, John Smith, and guitar player who plays guitar, it doesn't even sound like guitar, Sebastian, or I can't remember his name, but it's, it's just really like hip-hop-y and like, you know, groovy and stuff. Like,
I don't picture that audience coming out to hear me, you know? And I don't picture my audience going out to hear that. Although, I love it when people do do that. When we first opened, it was more...
There might be a few crossovers every once in a while, yeah. So what else do you have coming through there?
We have the Brazilian stuff, you know, samba jazz, and we'll have like, you know, singer-songwriter. We've, we've got, you know, freaky avant-garde jazz, what my staff refers to as nightmare jazz.
You know, and uh, yeah, you know, all of that stuff. Singers, you know, we had the gospel brunch for a while, we had the gospel scene.
That's cool.
And you have food.
And food, yeah.
That's a whole other layer.
Well, that was the whole, the whole reason for opening, the whole reason for opening the club was to have a good food and drink menu at a music club.
We thought that was sorely lacking and I think we were definitely right about that.
You were right. It's just a lot of things to be good at, at once, which seems hard.
Yeah, it's weird. It's weird, weird general managing all that stuff because you've known me for so long.
Like it's.
I know you like that stuff, but still.
I like it, but putting it out every day is a whole nother next level. At this point, it's, it's kind of, it's running well right now. The last, coming back from the pandemic was so hard. It was so difficult to get a team back, reassemble a team. And I've only felt really great about it for about the last six months. So last six months, things have been, I'm, I still work really hard, but I don't rack my brain. I don't go to bed feeling demoralized about some issue.
You have enough people to kind of back it up.
People know what they're doing. They know what the vibe is.
There's not a lot of hand wringing. You just get it done, you know?
Yeah. And I, I mean, I was there the other night and I had the perfect margarita.
Yeah, right on. Was it good?
I had two, three more, too many.
Oh, okay. Yeah, that's about as many as I had too.
It's not like the old days drinking margaritas.
No, we used to drink a lot of margaritas.
It sure is not the same anymore. I'll say that. I cannot do it like I used to.
Definitely not. I don't want to do it like I used to.
No, it's painful.
Opening a bar made me drink less. I have.
That's funny.
You know, I work, I don't drink while I'm working. At the end of the night, I do, you know, the chalkboards that we do, I do those.
You do them at the end of the night?
End of the night, I have a marg. I do my chalkboard. I go to bed.
And the chalkboards are very artsy, so.
That's like your zen moment.
It's a way to roll down the energy so I can go to sleep, you know?
So funny.
Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Covers seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hitmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Nile explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.
Listen to Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Can we do an old song of yours?
Sure.
Can we do "Stayin' Glass"?
Right on.
Because that's an old song.
It is, but I re-recorded it.
It's on the new album, and it's totally different.
Yeah, it's cool.
I always had... You're touching on something else, actually, that I'll share, which is just that this new record has singers, you know?
And they're so incredible.
When I came to see you the other day... Well, they sound great on the record, and they sounded the same when I saw you. It was so... Like, the parts are so incredible.
Well, they, you know... They work hard. The one girl, Katie, Katie Martucci, she has a group called Tucci Swing and they do all Boswell Sisters stuff.
That's so cool.
So I had tried the record with some other singers, some gospel singers, and it didn't work as well. And so I called Katie and Sammy, and then they came in with this other singer who wasn't there the other night, Venetia Gould, who's incredible.
And Sammy Stephens.
Sammy Stephens, Sammy Stephens, sorry. Yeah, I should be giving props to everybody. Because they're all artists too, in their own, in their own right there. They'll make their own records. And, but I've had this music and this style of doing my music for as long as I can remember. I mean, for decades. But I never knew who to call to do the singing or who to, and have the horn sections. And now, that was one of the things that Lunatica opened up, was I know all these horn players and all these singers. And I can see a band like that, Boswell Sisters Band, and go, oh, wow. I could just call, they know how to sing together. These guys, they'll know what to do.
Exactly.
You know? And I never had that. And that, and also just financially, just being able to pull off a record with 10-piece band.
That's a lot.
Yeah. So finally, with all those resources, I was like, cool, I'm going in, I'm gonna do this. And Stained Glass was a tune that I always had hoped I could get in that environment. So I was like, gonna drag that one back out.
Yeah, like, were you not happy with the old version? Or you just always heard it in a way that never happened?
I didn't like my voice on it. I don't like my voice on that whole record.
Which record is that?
Girls Need Attention.
Let's just direct everyone to it.
Yeah, exactly. No, it has, it has some cool songs on it. I like the songs. I was, you know, it's weird. I don't feel like I was in a good emotional place. And I think you hear it in the voice, or I hear it anyway, so it bothers me. You never know how other people hear stuff, so you just have to put things out and hope it goes well.
That's interesting, though, because... I mean, I have that too, where you go back and there's certain things, I'm like, I cringe a little because of one small thing that might
Nobody might notice, but
I'm doing that right now, even with the new record. I wanna go redo like ten things. And I wanna remix it and everything.
Oh, God.
I'm just like, I can't stop
I think that's normal.
Working on it.
I think most artists are like that.
Yeah, probably so, right? Yeah. I hate it. I mean, I really, it really makes me neurotic and nuts. I wonder if it, if it makes everyone as neurotic and nuts. I guess it probably does.
Well, I think people have different levels of neurosis.
Thanks. You're like, I know you, Richard. And your next level of neurosis.
No, no, no. I mean, I guess it depends on everyone's level. But I think, I do think everybody does it to a certain aspect.
Yeah. I drove a few people crazy on this record, for sure.
Yes, I was told, in fact, it's not just my imagination. So...
Alright.
You know, that showbiz babe, anyway.
Hey, I've been in a band with you.
What's that?
I've been in a band with you, and I'm sure I've driven you nuts doing stuff too, so, you know.
You never really have, actually.
That's not true.
I don't think so, I can't think of anything now. You got mad at me for getting coffee one day. That's the only thing I remember thinking, wow, she's kinda hardcore.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah, no, cuz I can't
Why?
Cuz I was late. You said I had to be on time, you had somewhere to be and we had to rehearse, and I was late. And then I walked up to your house and I had a mud cup coffee. So you knew I'd stopped downstairs, even though I was like You said, "Did you stop for coffee?" And I'm standing there with the, this orange, you know, like
Oh, my God.
It's like the cups that they use, and I was like, "Yeah." I was trying to think of a lie, but I couldn't think of one while I was holding the orange cup.
This is like therapy, this is like friend therapy. Boy, man, I could be uptight. I don't think I'm as uptight as I used to be. I think I used to be much more uptight sometimes.
It's funny, we've gone opposite directions, I think. And I think probably because maybe you were more uptight then because you just had so much stuff coming at you at once. You were figuring out your career and your role in all of that or something.
I think I was just a little uptight and very young and very on time.
Well, I'm like that now, running the club.
Now I'm like 15 minutes late always, so.
What's funny is musicians come by the club and I go, "Please don't leave your cases there on the table. We're sitting people. Can you please put those out there?" And I'm like over there policing it. And then I did a gig at Dizzy's with the band I have with John Chen. And we're sound checking and then I see them setting up the dining room and I look out. I mean, my stuff is spread across.
And you did the exact same thing.
Five tables. Yeah, I've got a case over here, my jacket's over here, my scarf is hanging somewhere else.
That's a different brain.
I thought, wow, I'm such a slub.
I didn't know this, but I started noticing when I would eat there that their playlist was our playlist. And some really deep cuts, like stuff that I've even taken off of records, like, you know, like, you know, old, this Louisiana band that I learned about from reading a Dr. John Downbeat interview in 1975, you know?
And it would end up, and I thought it was great. They were playing really great music in there. But I wasn't sure if they were ripping us, but I had, one day I was thinking, "There's not a lot of famous people named Floyd, is there?" And then I thought, well, there's Floyd Kramer, the piano player, who I know is probably influenced you a little bit, right? Maybe?
So.
I was like, oh, I should put some Floyd Kramer on the, uh, on the Lunatico playlist. Didn't he have a hit called Last Date or something? And I, I look up Floyd Kramer and I see under Floyd Kramer, this other record that he did. It's like a super obscure record and it has a tune called Fancy Pants, which reminded me of that story of Mickey Grim and the thing. I was like, wow, I gotta check that out. And I turn it on and it's a really silly tune. And it's so silly, I had to put it on the playlist, just this really silly little piece that he does. You have to check it out. And then about five weeks later, I heard Fancy Pants at, at Habino. I was like, there's no way they didn't get it from us, you know? But.
What, wait, do you, how do you do your playlist?
I'm, I make the playlist.
On what though?
Oh, on an Apple tunes.
On iTunes?
Yeah, Apple. So I think they're just, they're just shazamming us and making their own playlists, you know?
Oh, they should, you think they shazam it?
I think so, yeah.
It's that analog.
I mean, nobody would be able to find that, that's just like, that's such a random thing.
Well, here's what I noticed on Spotify. You know, for so long, you could find all these cool obscure songs. And then I start hearing them at every coffee shop. And it, in every end of some TV show as the music. And they're like amazing old obscure songs, but I think through the playlisting and the weekly discovery for you, it seems like they give everybody, they feed everybody a lot of the same stuff.
And then I've heard that, like, I don't know how Apple, Apple tunes works, but I know that on some of these platforms, like, if you link up with someone on a couple tunes across the world, they'll feed you their stuff and they'll feed them your stuff because you seem to have similar tastes. It's like this weird thing.
Isn't that crazy?
Wow, it's amazing.
It's like they really have the.
The age of Big Brother is like, is here and has been here for a while.
Yeah, it's interesting.
But I've discovered so much cool music that way. But I just, I feel like people maybe, if you're connected in any way, somehow it feeds you the same stuff. I don't know.
No, it's weird. I mean, just the algorithms of stuff that they want you to see online too, you know? Like, if you just linger over something long enough, you know?
Like I'd go on Facebook or on Instagram and.
They have me pegged because I'm 56, I'm white, you know.
And they're like, "You wanna know what Keith Richards is saying about Mick Jagger?" I'm like, "I don't give a shit what Keith Richards is saying about Mick Jagger anymore." You know, "I love the Stones." But like, but I have gone, I love the Stones and I've gone on little, you know, you know, rabbit holes of looking at old Stones videos. But then they think, you know, so then my news feed on Google is like, you know, "Bob Dylan said something about Mick Jagger." Well, who cares?
Well, it's weird, but it's like the gossip train.
Yeah, they try to do that.
Very news.
Or they try to sell me boner pills. Or they, the other day, they wanted me to watch a guy getting bitten by a horse.
You know, it's just like, "Why do I wanna see that?" And I think I must have clicked one time on a dash cam accident, like a car accident, because they, constantly, they wanna show me that car accidents are happening. I don't click on them, but they're like, "I'm watching something about to happen." You're supposed to click on it to actually wa-
You wanna finish it.
It's like, "Stag." I mean, it's weird.
It's messed up.
It's really weird.
It's very weird.
But I must have done it once, you know, I must have gone, "Oh, wow." You know, you know, you can do a lot of things when you're bored.
That's the least of it.
Yeah, exactly.
Maybe, maybe you find yourself-
What is it?
You mean the bridge?
Maybe, maybe you find yourself, what's the key?
Uh, it's, it's, should be C sharp, right?
I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
Yeah, um, no, I mean, I, well, I thought you had a chart there.
Yeah, no, the chart is not with the lyrics, so I'm trying to-
Oh, I see. So, yeah, C sharp minor. Maybe you find yourself.
And that would be like a D nine.
Somebody else. E flat.
That sounds cool. Oh, I like that with that, yeah, that with that note on top.
And then?
Okay.
Yeah, I know. It's weird. My songs are weird.
I know they're weird. All right, let's try this whacked-out chart.
You said it.
Whoop, that's too low.
That's pretty hot.
That's like Jaws.
Well, you know.
You could go that angle, too.
The light through stained glass
cast ruby red
Across the sheets of a poster bed And it's shown on me
And it's shown on you
Time passed by
And the memory grew
I hope we get to do it again.
Do it, do it, do it again.
Cast a sapphire blue
You made threats and then you followed through We came, we conquered
Yes, and we saw
You're so corrupt Acting above the law
Do it, do it.
Do it again.
Maybe you find yourself feeling the same, the same about me.
Hope we get to do it.
Maybe you found somebody, somebody else.
Someone who knows how you take your tea. Tell me, baby, how do you take your tea? I hope we get to do it again.
Tell me, how do you take your tea?
Hope we get to do it again.
Honey, with honey, lemon and sugar.
Baby, you colorized my mind.
Honey, how do you take your tea?
Don't we get to do it just one more time?
Honey, honey, lemon and sugar.
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That was fun.
I want to do something old of yours.
OK.
Not too old, maybe. I guess I saw you do this song at the gig the other night. So I know it's one you still feel, I guess.
OK, yeah.
"Don't Wait Up."
"Don't Wait Up," yeah.
I really love that song. As soon as you started playing it the other night, I was just transported back to those days and the memories and the... God, we used to hang out all the time.
Yeah, we really did.
Yeah, that tune was right in the heart of when we were really hanging all the time.
It really was. It's an emotional song. Can we do it?
One cool thing about running a club, too, is that when you were just mentioning about those days of us doing these songs, we did them mostly at the living room.
And...
The living room has been closed a while. I don't even think the living room lasted as long as Lunatico has.
Yeah, like it was just a short period.
Maybe.
But it seems gigantic in my mind. It just seems like this irreplaceable part of our history. And I think that's a cool thing about a club. It's like it's this entity that, you know, it's like a philosophy that whoever connects to it, you know, the musicians that are playing in our spot now, they're, that's gonna be their living room.
Yeah, and people come to see each other.
And, yeah, it becomes a thing.
Those were the days, man.
They really were.
We had a lot of...
Tequila.
Yeah, I was gonna say vodka.
Yeah, vodka, that's right, that's right.
That was my drink for a while.
It was, yeah.
That was rough.
Oh, vodka's like, vodka's mainlining.
Yeah, it was too much drinking.
You think about that sometimes, don't you?
The drinking that we used to do.
I do, I think it was a lot more than I realized at the time.
Yeah, me too.
We had fun, though. I don't feel like it was dark drinking.
It was probably...
Maybe not for you and me.
Maybe not for you and me. It was probably destructive drinking.
In many ways without us knowing it.
But it was not, um... We were happy-ish drunks.
Yeah, we really liked to get drunk, though.
It really was, it was too much.
We set out to do it pretty frequently.
I mean, it was too much.
Like every night?
Like every night.
It really was.
Kids at home.
I can't believe it, so I mean like...
Don't do it.
Yeah, no, we don't, I'm not promoting it. I'm just reminiscing.
I have been thinking about it a lot lately, though, because when I go back and think about all that stuff, I'm like, oh yeah, I was probably really drunk.
Yeah, or you think about, because you have kids now, too.
Of course.
Like I think, you know, Floyd, you know, if he ever gets into that or something, like, I think I would be really horrified for him, you know?
Me too.
Even though I survived.
Even though we survived it. I do feel like we were on the edge of, uh... We were like weirdly responsible drunks.
If that's anything.
Yeah, I know what you mean, yeah.
I don't know, not all of us, but, um... Well, anyway.
The thing is, is when you're, when you're hitting anything that hard, there's always somebody who's hitting it harder than you and makes you feel like your
thing is in check.
Well, that's the thing. I feel like we always, we always had people with us who were
way more obvious.
We were lightweight comparatively, but we were actually.
We kind of were.
You know? I mean, it's crazy to think about it. Also, living in New York City, you know, you don't really have to drive home and
it's definitely easier to get wasted here because
It is.
you're out till four in the morning.
It's a playground.
The bars close at four.
New York City is not for adults. It's not an adult town.
It was crazy.
Yeah. Well, it was bonding, though. I mean, we, we have lifelong bonds out of those days.
We don't remember most of them.
It's part of it. Yeah, no, definitely. There's a lot of, yeah.
Yeah, it was crazy, though.
Yeah. You know what I was thinking about, though, was, was how, how this song and, and really, like, all those songs from back then, they were, so many of them were written in bed in the morning.
Yeah, not getting out of bed.
This is such a morning vibe.
Not getting out of bed because we drank too much the night before.
They're hungover songs.
And they're, and they're sung from that kind of, sort of melancholic, you know, you know, that thing that can kind of happen when you have a headache and you're trying to get out of bed.
Well, it's interesting. We're not, we're certainly not the only people to have that lifestyle, but
I feel like there was something unique about us all being musicians, but not having day jobs. You had a day job for a while, but not at that time.
Not when I wrote this song.
Yeah, and I had already started making money, so when I was home, we would do gigs sometimes, but we would also just hang out.
It was a hanging lifestyle.
Yeah, because I was
You had the pool table.
Yeah, I was between tours.
And then you didn't have to get up in the morning.
And our whole crew was like that.
Oh, big time.
None of us, all of us were gigging musicians with no morning day job obligations.
But I, I was doing that even with the day job.
You were?
Yeah, I was going into, I mean, you know, I was younger. I could never do that now. I would die.
I know. I, I mean, that night I would die. I came to your bar last week and I died the next day.
Yeah. Yeah, I hit it kinda hard the other night too, but I was just having a good time. I never hit it like that. I do it on Mardi Gras. And sometimes on New Year's Eve, though, I didn't even do that this New Year's Eve. Or on a gig night. On a gig night, if it's going well and I'm communing, I'll have a few cocktails.
At the end, but you don't really, you don't do too much because you're trying to play.
And we used to do those Willie gigs and just get plastered.
Even before. We'd show up like that.
That's when I learned that I don't sing in tune drunk. I don't sing very good drunk.
I don't sing in tune sober either. I mean, I, I mean, for me, it's just kinda random whether I, whether I have that musicality. I don't warm up, though. That's the thing.
Oh, yeah, I always warm up.
You do all those warmups. You showed me some of them.
Well, I learned that I have more control if I do.
Yeah. I don't, I wanna learn them. I actually wanna, there's two things that I wanna do musically right now. One is I'm getting older and I'm losing that part between my falsetto and, and, and regular voice.
I can't hit those Fs and Gs. And they were bugging me the other night. I don't know if you noticed, but I made a lot of adjustments and went down because I, I was trying to hit it and I couldn't find it. So I was like, I had to move down.
I was drinking margaritas. I wasn't paying much attention.
But I wanna start doing some lessons. But for the last, for the last several years when I do gigs, the only warmup I do is I sing the verses to "Let's Stay Together" over and over again. Because they have all those weird intervals.
The Al Green tune? That's so funny.
Yeah. It'll help me with the falsetto getting back and forth. But I need more than that now. I need to actually like work out, you know, the part of my throat. I can't just rely on that.
No, I think as you age, it's important to warm up.
And then today, I was on Instagram, just this morning, and I saw Larry Goldings with a aerial shot of his organ. He does, has like a Patreon page. And he shows an aerial shot and he was playing all this really badass gospel inversions.
Cool.
And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna become part of his Patreon page. I'm gonna learn these changes.
Patreon page.
I think it's a thing where you give lessons, you know.
Oh, that's cool.
Someone belongs to the page, so you subscribe.
So they, but he gives general lessons?
Lessons.
And if you subscribe, you can not private.
I can see the lessons.
Yeah, not private.
And it's like an aerial shot.
Oh, yeah, I should do that.
I wanna do it.
He was playing some stuff I've been wanting to get to.
And I don't know where that stuff is. So I thought, I'm gonna do that and start working out my voice. Cause I wanna get out this record and I wanna go on tour. I wanna do some stuff.
I wanna, I don't know who's gonna pay for this, but I'm determined to take a seven-piece band at least to a few markets.
I think you're gonna pay for it.
Yeah, I think so. I think you're right.
What are you talking about? That's how touring works.
I'm just putting it out there, case the promoters are listening.
Oh, man. Yeah.
All right, let's try the two.
Okay, let's do it.
Flying half-mast overcast with a gunship gray.
You ever hear of such a thing? A spring with no month of May?
Ooh. There's frost on Memorial Day. Love, I'm half-blind. Could you help me find my way?
I chewed all the fun from my gum, waiting for a train.
I fell prey to those thoughts that come when you're caught in the rain.
I'm on the edge, I'm in the yellow paint. Love, I'm half-mad. Let's hope that means I'm half-sane.
The touch of your lips, the lunar eclipse, so soft.
And yet this river of doubt, the spout that never turns off.
I want your flu, baby, not just your cars. Please make me a man, not this shambles of leaves lost.
Staring out at the church, the pigeons perched in the eaves. Wondering what might have been, had I not fallen in with thieves.
Could you make that a double, please? Oh, love is late. Don't wait up for me. Love is late. Don't wait up for me. Don't wait.
God, it still makes me emotional.
Even that time.
I made a lot of mistakes, but I liked it.
Yeah, I liked that.
I liked it a lot.
I liked the track. They were just little chordal things. I don't think they really matter.
Even some of the lyrics, "Could you make that a double, please?"
"Don't wait up for me."
I know, man. Wow.
Well, now that we've-
Jones, now.
We've jumped into our extreme alcoholic past.
We're getting down in it tonight.
Today, this morning, I should say.
It's really, it truly is, though. It's a truth that I've thought about in the last five years a lot.
That I didn't, I didn't really realize it at the time.
Well, we have time to reflect, you know?
Luckily, we're still here to do it, so.
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If you're a music fan, I've got a new podcast you have to check out. It's called Before the Moment, a new series hosted by the legendary Nile Rodgers. You know him as the producer, songwriter, guitarist, and co-founder of Chic. But in this series, he's hitting the road to sit down with some of today's most fascinating artists. From hipmakers like Miguel to rising stars like Alex Warren, Niall explores the stories behind the careers, the songs, and the moments that changed everything. Because every artist can point to that turning point, the moment before the breakthrough, before the success, before everything changed. Through candid conversations and personal stories, you'll hear what happened before the moment that made them who they are today.
Listen to "Before the Moment", a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
But we had a lot of fun.
We did.
I thought maybe we could end our little session with "Love Sick Blues" from the Willie's album.
What do you think?
Sounds good.
Yeah?
2024. How old do you think this song is?
Wait, it's 2024?
I thought it was still 2023.
So this song was written, yeah.
When was this song written?
Hank, well, isn't there a whole thing where Hank didn't really write it?
I think the legend is he kind of stole it from a street singer, like a blues street guy.
It sounds like it. It doesn't actually sound like one of his songs.
No, it doesn't.
Yeah, so it probably is true.
Yeah, I wonder where it really came from.
Yeah. He wrote so many good songs. One day, I want to do with with the new arrangement with all the horns and like, I want to do a version of "Lonesome Whistle." He wrote so many good ones, and he was so young when he died. It's amazing how much he left.
I know, it's crazy.
All right. But this one, let's give it a try.
Oh Trey, you don't usually play this.
Yeah, you're right.
You usually just sing it, yeah.
I always stood up and sang this one.
I think I know, I don't know.
Let's do, yeah, definitely.
I got a feeling called the blues. Oh Lord, since my baby said goodbye.
Lord, I don't know what I'll do.
All I do is sit and sigh. Oh Lord, that last long day she said goodbye. Oh Lord, I thought I would die. She'll do me, she'll do you. She's got that kind of loving. Lord, I love to hear her when she calls me sweet daddy. He's such a beautiful dream.
I hate to think it's all over. I've lost my heart, it seems.
I've grown so used to you somehow.
And I'm nobody's sugar daddy now. And I'm lonesome. I've got the love sick blues.
Well, I'm in love, I'm in love with a beautiful girl. That's what's the matter with me. Well, I'm in love, I'm in love with a beautiful girl. She don't care about me. Lord, I've tried and I've tried to keep her satisfied. She just couldn't seem.
But now that she is leaving, this is all that I can say.
I've got a feeling called the blues. Oh, Lord, since my baby said goodbye.
Lord, I don't know what I'll do. All I do is sit and sad. Oh, Lord, that last long day she said goodbye.
Oh, Lord, I thought I would die.
She'll do me, she'll do you. She's got that kind of loving. Lord, I love to hear when she calls me sweet daddy. Such a beautiful dream.
I've grown so used to you somehow. And I'm nobody's sugar daddy now. And I'm lonesome. I've got the lovesick blues. I'm lonesome. I've got the lovesick blues.
I played a lot of wrong chords.
That's a Sunday morning.
That's either a late night or an early morning.
Yeah. Yeah.
Idea was it to do the Little Willies, because I don't remember.
It was Jim's idea, but you guys invited me. You guys did a gig without me at the living room.
Oh.
And you and I had sang.
Because you're from Delaware. We didn't think you were country enough.
But then you asked me to do that song, "The World at Surprise."
Oh, that's right.
And so I came and sang it the day you were doing that gig. And you said, "Oh, we're gonna do this thing."
So I showed up and you said, "Why don't you do that song?" And then I did the song and then I joined the...
Ah!
I didn't leave.
I forgot that history.
That's what happened.
Yeah, you guys were a quartet. I thought you sounded amazing like that.
But we'd only done like one gig. It's not like we'd have done much.
Yeah. Well, that's cool.
Super fun.
Thanks for coming so early, bar owner.
Yeah, right on.
Early in the morning.
Aw, thanks for listening. That was our show with Richard Julian.
That's so great. To know him is to know, to know his music is to know him as a person. Because I feel like his lyrics are like having a conversation with, you know, your quirky friend, Richard.
They're very quirky, Richard. Yeah, I mean, I owe a lot to Richard for my early songwriting, my early musical life. He really was a good friend and sort of showed me stuff and helped shape me. So it was really nice to just have him on the show. If you want to know what songs we played today on the show, the first one was "The Extra Layer" from his album out now called Hit and Run 2025. The second song is called "Jimmy Jufry Was" from Hit and Run also. The third song is called "Stained Glass," is also from his new album, Hit and Run from 2025. It was also recorded on his 2010 album, Girls Need Attention. Yes, we do.
The fourth song, one of my favorites from the old days, is called "Don't Wait Up" from Slow New York back in 2005. The last song we played was "Lovesick Blues." It's a classic Tin Pan Alley song from the 20s, composed by Cliff Friend with lyrics by Urban Mills. But my favorite version, of course, by Hank Williams from his 1952 album, Moanin' the Blues. And we also do it on the Little Willies album. Special thanks to Richard Julian for joining us today. Next week, we'll be back with Luz Alena Mendoza Ramos of I La Bamba. Norah Jones is Playing Along is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Norah Jones. Today's episode was recorded by Matt Marinelli, mixed by Jamie Landry, edited by Sarah Oda,
audio post-production and mastering by Greg Tobler, artwork by Eliza Frye, photography by Chervin Lenez, produced by me and Sarah Oda. Executive producers, Erin Wong Kaufman and Jordan Runtog, marketing lead, Queen Anaki.
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