Pod Insights No B.S. Job Search Advice Radio Reverse the Search: Turn Job Seeking into Job Shopping About this episode 3061 "Reverse the Search: Turn Job Seeking into Job Shopping" by Madeline Mann, offers a paradigm shift in job searching, moving from passive application to active "job shopping." The author, a career coach, shares strategies for job seekers to become irresistible candidates, emphasizing proactive relationship building and strategic self-presentation. ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTERPeople hire Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter to provide No BS job search coaching and career advice globally because he makes job search and succeeding in your career easier. Schedule a discovery call to speak with me about one-on-one or group coaching during your job search at www. TheBigGameHunter.us. You will also find great info and job search coaching to help with your job search at JobSearch. Community You can get free copies of 25 Interview Questions and Answers, How to Craft a Compelling Elevator Pitch in 20 Seconds or Less, Get Ready for the Job Jungle, Diagnosing Your Job Search Problems, No BS Resume Advice, and Prove Your Worth First, Then Negotiate. Receive free weekly suggestions and more. Subscribe to No BS Job Search Advice Radio, the #1 podcast in Apple Podcasts for job search with more than 3000 episodes. Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/TheBigGameHunter We grant permission for this post and others to be used on your website as long as a backlink is included to www. TheBigGameHunter.us and notice is provided that it is provided by Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter as an author or creator. Not acknowledging his work or providing a backlink to www. TheBigGameHunter.us makes you subject to a $1000 penalty which you proactively agree to pay. Please contact us to negotiate the use of our content as training data.
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0:30 Speaker 01 Welcome, listener, to another deep dive. Have you ever felt like, well, you're playing this incredibly frustrating game when it comes to your career? You know, sending out applications into what feels like a total black hole, wondering why on earth you're not getting noticed? Or maybe just feeling completely overwhelmed by these endless articles filled with, frankly, pretty vague advice?
0:50 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, that feeling. Like, you're stuck in this really outdated way of looking for work. It's incredibly common. And it's precisely that feeling, that whole paradigm, that our source material today really aims to tackle head-on.
1:03 Speaker 01 Right. So today, we're taking a deep dive into Madeleine Mann's groundbreaking new book, Reverse the Search: How to Turn Job Seeking into Job Shopping.
1:13 Speaker 02 Oh.
1:13 Speaker 01 And our mission, for you, listener, is to pull out the 10 most powerful, really game-changing insights from this book. Insights that we think will completely transform how you approach your career journey. Get ready for some serious aha moments. Okay, let's unpack this. Madeleine Mann kicks off her book by, well, busting some really pervasive myths about the job search. What are these foundational misconceptions, she says, are holding people back?
1:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, she highlights five key ones that often keep people stuck. First up, this idea that aiming lower will be easier. It sounds logical, but it's actually counterintuitive. Companies, they often fear hiring overqualified candidates. They worry you might seek promotions too fast or just leave quickly for something better. So paradoxically, they often prefer someone who meets maybe, say, 70% of the qualifications, but brings real enthusiasm and, you know, transferable skills.
2:04 Speaker 01 Huh, right, so it's not a leg up. It's potentially a red flag. Okay, what's next on her myth book?
2:10 Speaker 02 The second myth is that you need more degrees or certifications to stand out. Mann argues that, OK, sure, prestigious degrees might matter in some really niche fields, maybe academia or law, but for most jobs, it's really experience and relationships that truly grab a company's attention. She shares this great anecdote about her client, Gail. Gail landed a high-profile research role at a top university, got a 33% salary bump, all using these job-shopping strategies, and crucially, without any additional education. It just shows where the real value often lies.
2:39 Speaker 01 That's powerful, especially for people wondering if they need to go back to school. OK, this next one gets really interesting. What about the numbers game myth?
2:47 Speaker 02 Ah, yes. Myth number three. The job search is just a numbers game. Spray and pray, right? Well, Mann reports that only about 10% to 15% of hires at top tech companies actually come from online applications.
3:01 Speaker 01 Wait, only 10% to 15%? That low?
3:04 Speaker 02 Yeah. Recruiters. They often skip that whole pile of applications and source directly on LinkedIn. She tells the story about her client, Nestor. He had a master's, great skills, applied to 500 jobs. 500!
3:17 Speaker 01 Wow.
3:17 Speaker 02 And got zero offers. But when he shifted to job-shopping, focusing on relationships and strategy, he landed interviews at one out of every three places he was interested in and secured his dream role with a $35,000 salary increase.
3:30 Speaker 01 That's a huge shift in perspective. Just flooding the market isn't the answer. OK, what are the final two myths?
3:35 Speaker 02 Fourth is this idea. I need to stay open to many different types of roles so I don't miss out on potential opportunities. You know, casting a really wide net, Mann warns this often backfires. Employers look at these multi-passionate people and see a kind of human Swiss Army knife.
3:52 Speaker 01 Good at many things, but maybe not great at one specific thing they need.
3:56 Speaker 02 Exactly. Good, not great. She remembers this accountant who admitted in an interview she just took the call to learn more. Instant rejection because, well, employers don't want to be your career experiment. They want commitment to their role.
4:09 Speaker 01 Ouch. Yeah, you don't want them thinking you're just testing the waters with their time.
4:13 Speaker 02 Okay.
4:13 Speaker 01 And last myth.
4:14 Speaker 02 Finally, number five. The passive belief that things will eventually become clear and it will all work out. Just wait and see. Mann calls this rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. It just leads to taking another role and surprise, quickly becoming just as disenchanted as before. You absolutely have to actively shape your career. Do the soul searching before you start the job search because then like the right job, it rarely just falls from the sky.
4:38 Speaker 01 Okay, so that's a lot of what not to do. If those are the myths, what is a job shopper then? What's their advantage?
4:46 Speaker 02 Right. A job shopper is someone who approaches the market with real clarity and power. They know exactly what they want. They speak directly to the company's needs, the specific problems they have, and they leave interviewers thinking, wow, this person is in a league of their own. So unlike typical job seekers who might, you know, eventually land a job offer, job shoppers often land several offers. Companies actually end up competing for them.
5:11 Speaker 01 Which completely flips the power dynamic.
5:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:14 Speaker 01 That's fascinating. Mann explains that even in what people call an employer's market, job shopping makes you more competitive. How does that work?
5:21 Speaker 02 Exactly, because companies want a mutual fit just as much as you do. They're terrified of making a bad hire. It's costly and disruptive. So the job shopper confidently shows how they are the right fit to solve the specific challenges of that job. They basically take the hard thinking out of it for the hiring manager. They make the decision easy.
5:39 Speaker 01 And this isn't just for like the superstar candidates with perfect resumes, right?
5:43 Speaker 02 Absolutely not. Mann is really clear on this. It works for career changers, people early or late in their careers, folks without fancy degrees, or those without big branded names on their resume. She tells the story of her client, Alana. Alana was six months pregnant and landed nine job offers. Nine.
6:01 Speaker 01 While visibly pregnant.
6:03 Speaker 02 Wow. Companies knew, but they kept bidding and competing for her. One even offered a flexible schedule, a consulting start, and maternity leave. Why? Because she transformed her approach. She demonstrated her undeniable value. It shows you're not just a commodity.
6:18 Speaker 01 That's such a core message. We're not interchangeable parts.
6:21 Speaker 02 Definitely. Man gives an example from when she was hiring a product designer. They got 300 applications. Out of 300, only nine were actually qualified. Nine.
6:31 Speaker 01 That's a tiny fraction.
6:32 Speaker 02 Right. They chose a candidate from another state, paid thousands in relocation, waited four weeks for her to start. Because getting that high-quality hire, that job shopper, was worth all the short-term hassle. And that candidate promoted three times in six years. Companies will make exceptions for candidates they see as irresistible.
6:49 Speaker 01 OK, so if job shopping is the way, and it clearly gives you power, the very first step Man emphasizes is getting clarity. How does she guide us through finding out what we actually want?
7:02 Speaker 02 She introduces something she calls the wealth formula. That's W E L L T S. Values plus strengths plus market demand. Wealth self.
7:12 Speaker 01 Wealth self, I like that. Not just wealth, but living well.
7:15 Speaker 02 Exactly. It emphasizes having the time and energy to do what you want outside of your job, not just being rich. Finding work that energizes you supports the lifestyle you want.
7:25 Speaker 01 Let's break that down, starting with values.
7:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:27 Speaker 01 What does she mean by that? And how do we figure out ours?
7:30 Speaker 02 Values are your core priorities. What truly matters to you in your work and your life. She gives examples like advancement, autonomy, work-life balance, flexibility, impact. Her client, Vishal, for instance, was a huge gamer. He thought he wanted to work in the video game industry. It seemed like a dream, right?
7:45 Speaker 01 Makes sense. Marry your passion with your work.
7:47 Speaker 02 But then he did some informational interviews. He talked to people actually in the industry. And he realized the long hours, the crunch times. It completely clashed with his core values around balance and having personal time. So he pivoted. Found immense fulfillment as a software developer for educational apps. It gave him the free time and the income to enjoy gaming as a hobby, not a job that burns him out.
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8:43 Speaker 01 That's a really powerful example of not confusing a passion for something with wanting to work in it. Okay, what about strengths?
8:49 Speaker 02 Strengths are the things that actually make work feel kind of fun. It's where you build mastery with relative ease, and that leads to faster promotions, more money, more enjoyment. Mann contrasts her own experience. She tried market research, hated it, wasn't detail-oriented, but then HR. Playing to her strengths in problem-solving, creativity, understanding people, time just flew by.
9:09 Speaker 01 So how do we identify our strengths? Sometimes it's hard to see them ourselves.
9:13 Speaker 02 Good point. She suggests a few things. Professional assessments can help. Asking current and former coworkers for honest feedback. What do they see you excelling at? And also, personal reflection. What kind of information do you naturally consume? What skills do you pick up easily? What tasks are you good at that most people seem to dread? That's often where your strengths lie.
9:35 Speaker 01 And the final piece of the wealth formula, market demand. This seems pretty crucial for actually getting paid.
9:41 Speaker 02 Absolutely crucial. This is about pragmatism. It involves researching how much a potential career path pays at different stages. And importantly, is the field growing? Or is it shrinking, maybe being replaced by tech? Mann suggests resources like the Bureau of Labor Statistics, bealice.gov for big-picture trends. But again, she stresses talking to people actually in the profession. They have the real-time, ground-level view.
10:05 Speaker 01 That makes sense. The government data is useful, but it can lag behind. So those informational interviews are key again.
10:11 Speaker 02 Totally key. They bridge the gap between stats and reality. She also notes, while big career changes are possible, it's usually much smoother to set out on a clear path early on and then make smaller adjustments or rescale incrementally later.
10:25 Speaker 01 So putting it all together, the Wellenthal formula is about being really methodical and intentional, not just sort of stumbling into a career.
10:32 Speaker 02 Precisely. It's active, not passive. Mann advises, nail down your top five values, your top five strengths, then list possible roles that align. Research the market demand for each. Talk to people in those roles and keep eliminating options until you narrow it down to the single best fit for you. Those informational interviews, she says, they're pivotal. Don't stop until you have that clarity.
10:53 Speaker 01 OK, clarity achieved. You know your target role. Now, presenting yourself, this next insight really flipped my thinking. Madeline Mann says, "Your resume isn't about you." What does she mean by that? How is my resume not about me?
11:07 Speaker 02 Huh. Yeah, it sounds odd at first. She says, "We often treat our resume like an autobiography or like a Wikipedia page listing every single thing we've ever done." But it shouldn't be. It should be a sales page, focused entirely on what the company is asking for in that specific job description and how you are the direct solution to their particular problems and challenges. It cures what she calls autobiography syndrome.
11:30 Speaker 01 So stop telling my whole life story and start telling their story. With me is the hero who solves their problem.
11:36 Speaker 02 Exactly. You nailed it. It's about their needs, their pain points. She talks about her client Liz. Liz hired a fancy resume writer, applied to 15 jobs, totally qualified, but got zero interviews.
11:48 Speaker 01 Ouch. After paying for a writer.
11:49 Speaker 02 Yep. So Mann helped Liz revamp her resume the right way, speaking directly to what those companies needed. The result, Liz landed seven interviews and three job offers from companies that reached out to her. She didn't even apply to them. Her LinkedIn just became a magnet.
12:05 Speaker 01 That's incredible. OK, so what's this foolproof method she uses? The Jalori formula, right?
12:10 Speaker 02 Right, the Jalori formula. It's five steps. G is for gather keywords. Go through three to five target job descriptions and pull out the specific role-related hard skills they keep mentioning. These are your search terms.
12:21 Speaker 01 OK, keywords. Got it. L?
12:23 Speaker 02 L is list tasks performed. For your recent jobs, list tasks that match those keywords. And here's the key. Prioritize relevance over frequency. Even if you only did it once, if it's relevant, include it.
12:36 Speaker 01 Ah, relevance over frequency, that's important. O.
12:39 Speaker 02 O is observe your story. This is about overcoming what she calls I just syndrome. Like, oh, we just managed the project. No. Recognize the value and impact. Ask yourself, what were things like before I did this? What were the actual results? The impact. Quantify it.
12:54 Speaker 01 OK, dig deeper into the impacts. R.
12:56 Speaker 02 R is refine the accomplishment. Now craft strong bullet points. Start with an action verb, even those key words, and quantify everything possible. Like, managed four quarterly retreats with 100-plus attendees, resulting in a 93% satisfaction score. Numbers, metrics, percentages. Man insists all work can be quantified somehow.
13:13 Speaker 01 Even if it feels qualitative, find a way. OK, and finally, why?
13:17 Speaker 02 Why is for yes statements. These are short, punchy summaries. Put them maybe at the top or in a highlight section. They grab attention, point to specific expertise, or crucially, translate how a past role is relevant if you're making a career pivot, or if your best stuff is from a few jobs ago.
13:33 Speaker 01 Got it. So G Lory. Gather, list, observe, refine. Yes. This really turns the resume into a targeted weapon, not just a history lesson. It makes the hiring manager immediately see the fit. You mentioned Liz's LinkedIn became a magnet. That leads perfectly into the next point. How do job shoppers make opportunities actually find them?
13:53 Speaker 02 It boils down to building an online brand so you're, well, easily found. Man puts it bluntly. The secret to always having a job. You don't have to be the most talented person in your industry. You just have to be the most easily found.
14:07 Speaker 01 So it's about visibility. Leveraging the fact that companies are actively looking, not just passively waiting.
14:12 Speaker 02 Precisely. Companies with skilled roles, they hire recruiters, sourcers, headhunters. Their whole job is to actively search for talent. Man herself got an email out of the blue from a recruiter for a renewable energy company she'd never even heard of. She wasn't looking happy in her role, but took the call, went through interviews, got an offer. It proves companies are sourcing. You want to be the person they find.
14:34 Speaker 01 OK, makes sense. So what are the practical steps Man recommends for building that kind of findable online presence?
14:41 Speaker 02 She focuses on three key areas. First. Optimize your online profile. Primarily, this means LinkedIn. Use those key words you gathered everywhere. Headline, about, section, experience descriptions. Put your target job title in your headline, even if it's aspirational. Fill out all the sections. And crucially, she says, make sure your privacy settings are public. If your profile is on lockdown tighter than Fort Knox, you're missing out.
15:06 Speaker 01 Right. You can't be found if you're hidden. What's the second area?
15:09 Speaker 02 Second, grow your network. LinkedIn runs on degrees of separation. More connections mean wider reach. Mann tells a story about training a new recruiter whose candidate searches were like a barren wasteland compared to her own cornucopia. The only difference: network size. She advises connecting with people from past jobs, companies, colleagues, vendors, even strangers in your industry. Use customized messages, especially for key contexts. Aim for 500-plus connections minimum, ideally over 2,000 for experienced pros.
15:40 Speaker 01 Okay, optimize profile, grow network, and the third?
15:43 Speaker 02 Third, content creation. Use your voice. Start simple. Comment thoughtfully on posts by others in your field. Share takeaways, observations. If you create your own content, it doesn't have to be earth-shattering insights. Summarize an interesting article. Ask a question to your network like, "What's your favorite productivity app?" Mann found that posting regularly on her own brand made her feel familiar to people. It actually reduced her own social anxiety when reaching out later. It's like networking at scale.
16:08 Speaker 01 So optimize, grow, create. It's like tending a digital garden so opportunities naturally bloom and come to you. Okay, building the brand helps you be found. But what about actively reaching out for specific roles or companies? What's the shortcut Mann offers there?
16:22 Speaker 02 The shortcut is networking, plain and simple. And her core idea here is powerful. Measure your progress in interactions, not applications. Think about that. It's about conversations, not just submissions. She shares the story of Todd. He's a music teacher for 15 years, wanted to become a scrum master, applied to over 300 jobs online. Guess how many interviews?
16:44 Speaker 01 Based on earlier points, zero.
16:45 Speaker 02 Zero. So he stopped applying online completely, totally stopped, focused only on building relationships and getting the right skills. He landed two job offers without submitting a single online application. One paid more than double his teacher's salary. It shows where the real leverage is.
17:01 Speaker 01 So the takeaway isn't never apply online, but maybe. That's not the main event, especially for certain roles.
17:07 Speaker 02 Exactly. If you do apply online, Mann says, always follow up by trying to connect with someone inside the company. Get a referral if possible. But for manager-level roles and hire, she strongly advises making it a rule. Only enter hiring processes through referrals or being directly sourced. Forget the application portal for those jobs.
17:28 Speaker 01 That's a bold rule, but it highlights the power of connection. Still, networking. So many people dread it. It feels awkward, like you're bothering people. How do we get over that?
17:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, that feeling is real. It often feels inauthentic or vulnerable. But Mann reframes it. Networking is simply relationship building. That's it. And she brings up weak ties, that idea from sociologist Mark Granovetter. It means your acquaintances, your casual contacts, are often more likely to lead to opportunities than your close friends.
17:56 Speaker 01 Because they know different people, move in different circles.
17:59 Speaker 02 Exactly. They have access to different information streams. So how do you overcome the bothering people fear? Mann says have pure intentions. Ah, don't go into it expecting a job or even a referral. Go in with genuine curiosity about the other person. And please, she begs, stop saying, "Let me know if there's anything I can help you with." She calls it the laziest phrase in networking.
18:22 Speaker 01 Uh huh. Okay, guilty as charged sometimes.
18:24 Speaker 02 Okay.
18:24 Speaker 01 So what's the alternative? How do you offer value authentically?
18:28 Speaker 02 Use her 60 seconds of value strategy. Focus on them first. Ask good probing questions. What are your top focuses at work these days? What are you excited about? Anything interesting coming up outside work? Then think small and thoughtful for offering value. Maybe make an introduction. Invite them to a professional group. Engage with their stuff on social media. Comment on their company's posts. Share their news. Share a resource you found. Maybe brainstorm ideas with them carefully.
18:54 Speaker 01 So it's about genuine curiosity and small, helpful gestures. What about after the conversation?
18:59 Speaker 02 Follow up. Send a thank you email within 24 hours. Simple, polite. And then, this is key, send update emails every, say, one to four weeks. Briefly share how you've used their advice or what progress you've made. It makes people feel good about helping you. It keeps the connection warm.
19:16 Speaker 01 That makes sense, closing the loop. And finding new people to connect with if your existing network feels small.
19:22 Speaker 02 Start with her golden 20 exercise. List 20 people you already know who could be helpful. Rank them by helpfulness and influence. Start there. For new contacts, focus on noticing people. Find common ground on LinkedIn, shared school, past company, volunteer group, mutual connection. Then craft a customized outreach message. Show genuine interest in them and their work, not just a generic, can you help me find a job? Message. Build the bridge first.
19:48 Speaker 01 So networking really is the key to avoiding that demoralizing rejection list and keeping opportunities flowing. It's about relationships, not transactions. Okay, you've done the prep, built the brand, networked your way in, and landed the interview. Now, the crucial part. How do you make sure you actually get the offer?
20:03 Speaker 02 Man says it's all about getting on the same side of the interview table as the interviewer. Shifting the dynamic. Instead of just passively letting them extract information from you, you adopt what she calls a consultative approach. She tells this great story about her client Lisa in a very formal government interview. Standard questions, very rigid. At the end, Lisa asked for just a few extra minutes, and then she started directing the conversation. Asked insightful questions about team dynamics, upcoming projects, and then proactively offered some initial ideas on how she might approach things, improve results.
20:37 Speaker 01 Wow, that takes guts in a formal setting. How did they react?
20:41 Speaker 02 The hiring manager literally exclaimed, "See, that right there is what we've been missing." She basically turned the interview into a collaborative, problem-solving session with her as the expert consultant.
20:51 Speaker 01 That's a total game changer. So how do we master this consultative approach? What are the steps?
20:57 Speaker 02 First, she says, you have to pass the likability test. It's subconscious, but interviewers are asking, "Do I actually like this person? Could I work with them every day? Hmm." So be authentic. Use your natural voice. Avoid that weird robotic or overly bubbly interview voice that just sounds fake. And bring more energy than you think you need. Man coached a client who was naturally monotone. She told him to act completely over the top in a mock interview. On playback, he just looked normal and enthusiastic.
21:26 Speaker 01 Uh huh, right. Better to aim high on energy. Okay, pass likability, then what?
21:31 Speaker 02 Then, build rapport. Don't dismiss the small talk. Treat it as a big deal. When they ask those throwaway questions like, "How was your weekend?" Or, "How's your day going?" Answer with a little more personality than just, "Good." Volunteer a tiny insignificant detail. It makes you seem friendly, human, and more in control. It helps build that genuine connection beyond just the Q and A.
21:51 Speaker 01 Makes sense. Grease the wheels a bit. And central to this whole approach is aiming for a mutual fit, right? Bringing back the well formula.
21:58 Speaker 02 Absolutely. You need to be clear about your preferences and strengths, based on that wealth work you did, and be upfront about it. Man shares her own story interviewing for a head of HR role. They asked what she wanted. She clearly stated she required a company that valued HR as a truly strategic function, not just administrative.
22:17 Speaker 01 So she laid out her non-negotiables.
22:18 Speaker 02 Exactly. And immediately, the hiring manager shifted. He started selling her on the role, reassuring her it was strategic, explaining why he saw her as a great fit. Unprompted, it makes you irresistible because they know you're not just looking for any job, you're looking for this specific type of role, and you're committed.
22:36 Speaker 01 And then there's the secret weapon she mentions, the 90-day plan. How detailed does this need to be, especially if you might not even present it formally?
22:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's more about the process than a perfect final document. Man calls it a secret side mission. Even just thinking through and drafting a 90-day plan forces you into that consultative mindset. You research the company, the role's challenges, you ask better questions in interviews about their pain points, then you draft a basic outline. Overarching goals for the first 90 days, key deliverables, initial actions. It doesn't have to be perfectly correct, she emphasizes, it just needs to be thoughtful. It shows massive initiative and lets the interviewer vividly picture you hitting the ground running.
23:19 Speaker 01 So the interview becomes less of a test you pass and more of a collaborative session, where you show up as the consultant, ready to solve their specific problems. Okay, you're being consultative, building rapport. What else elevates you from just a good candidate to a truly irresistible one, especially in those final rounds?
23:36 Speaker 02 Right, how do you seal the deal? Man introduces two really powerful tools here. The Story Toolbox and Show/Don't Tell Projects, or STTs. She uses her client, James, as an example. He had the silver medal curse, always made it to the final round, never got the offer. So frustrating. Ugh, the worst.
23:52 Speaker 01 Totally. But- After implementing these two tools, he got job offers at the next four companies he interviewed with. Ended up taking a role with an $80,000 salary bump.
24:01 Speaker 02 Okay, $80,000 increase. I'm listening. Let's start with the story toolbox. What is it and why does it make such a difference?
24:08 Speaker 01 The story toolbox is basically your collection of compelling anecdotes. Short stories that serve as concrete evidence of your skills, character, and capabilities. Man mentions her own study where candidates who used 30, 40% more specific examples in stories were way more likely to advance. And she cites Chip Heath's research. 63% of an audience remembered stories from speeches. Only 5% remembered statistics. Stories make you memorable. And think about it. Companies never hire a candidate they can't remember. Stories connect emotionally.
24:39 Speaker 02 Okay. Stories stick. How do we build this toolbox? What kinds of stories should we gather? She suggests brainstorming at least two stories for about seven key prompts. Things like: A time you saved the day or solved a big problem, collaborated effectively on a team, took charge or showed leadership, worked with a difficult person, messed up or failed, and what you learned overcame a major obstacle and achieved something really great. And try to keep them relatively recent, past five to 10 years, is a good rule of thumb.
25:08 Speaker 01 Got it. And, once we have these stories ready, how do we tell them effectively in an interview? Is there a structure?
25:14 Speaker 02 Yes, definitely. Use the PR method. C is for challenge. Briefly give the context. What was the problem or situation you faced? Set the scene. A is for action. Describe the specific actions you took. What decisions did you make? What skills did you use? This is where you highlight your contribution. R is for a result. Finish strong. What was the outcome? What was the impact? Quantify it whenever possible. She gives a good example about mentoring a struggling junior developer, identifying where they were stuck, the specific actions she took, and the result. Within two weeks, the developer was performing at full capacity. Clear car structure.
25:47 Speaker 01 Challenge, action, result. C A R. Simple, memorable.
25:53 Speaker 01 Okay, now the second tool. Show, don't tell projects. SDTs. This sounds intriguing. Like letting them try before they buy.
26:01 Speaker 02 That's exactly the idea. SDTs provide tangible, undeniable proof of your work quality. You're not just telling them you're good, you're showing them. Man used her own work samples years ago when interviewing for HR jobs, like spreadsheets she'd built for compensation systems, process flow charts. The CEO later told her that seeing those actual samples was the exact moment he knew he'd make her an offer. Called her one of his best hires ever. It removes guesswork.
26:25 Speaker 01 Okay, that's compelling. What kind of SDT projects can people create? Does it have to be a huge undertaking?
26:30 Speaker 02 Not necessarily. She divides them into three buckets. One, visuals and summaries. Think screenshots of presentation slides, maybe snippets of documents, charts, summarizing data, even relevant photos. Paired with a high-level summary. Quick, visual, easy to digest. Two, work samples. Actual deliverables from past jobs. An email template you created. A complex spreadsheet you built. A presentation deck. The key is walking them through it, explaining your process and the results. Show off your beautiful, color-coded spreadsheet. Three, custom projects. Now, this is next level. Projects created specifically for the target company, even if it's based on assumptions.
27:09 Speaker 01 Whoa, custom work, like what?
27:10 Speaker 02 Review the job description, your interview notes. Pick a key challenge or focus area they mentioned. Then design a small project around it. Maybe a UX designer does some quick user interviews on their product or designs wireframes for a feature they talked about. Man stresses it doesn't have to be perfectly right. It's about showing your skills, your initiative, how you think strategically about their problem.
27:30 Speaker 01 Okay, visual samples or custom projects. And when do you actually use these? Do you just whip them out?
27:36 Speaker 02 Ha, maybe not whip them out. But you have options. You could submit one with your application to stand out, especially for competitive roles or if you're pivoting. You can bring them into the interview, use them as visual aids to make your answers much more concrete and impressive. Or you could send one as a follow-up, a kind of hail mary between interviews if you want to reinforce your interest or address a specific point. The key, she says, is weaving them in naturally. Don't force it. It should feel like a helpful Illustration of your point.
28:04 Speaker 01 OK, the interview is done. You were irresistible. Use your stories and maybe an SDT. And boom, you get the offer. Fantastic. But now comes negotiation. That part makes so many people nervous.
28:15 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, definitely. Mann really emphasizes that negotiation should be seen as a partnership, not some kind of battle or confrontation. But the fear is real. She found a staggering 42% of her audience admitted they took their most recent offer without negotiating at all.
28:30 Speaker 01 Forty-two percent. Wow. Why? Just fear of looking greedy or getting the offer pulled?
28:36 Speaker 02 Exactly. Fear of appearing ungrateful, fear of the offer being rescinded, or just plain confusion about how it all works, the rules.
28:44 Speaker 01 But companies expect you to negotiate, don't they? It's usually built into the process.
28:47 Speaker 02 Generally, yes. Offers almost always have some wiggle room, even if they say it's the top of the range. And think about it from their side. If you accept immediately with zero discussion, they might actually think, huh, we could have offered lower, maybe we overpaid. That can subtly set a negative tone for future raises. Mann suggests a simple, innocent question. Which aspects of this offer are negotiable, if any? You might be surprised. Maybe base salary is fixed, but there's flexibility on a sign-on bonus or vacation days or remote work options.
29:19 Speaker 01 That's a good, low-pressure way to open the door.
29:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:22 Speaker 01 What about that dreaded salary expectations question that comes up way too early?
29:26 Speaker 02 Ugh, yeah. Mann strongly advises delaying giving a specific number until you actually have the offer in hand. Why? Because at the offer stage, they're already sold on you. They've invested time, they like you, they want the search to be over. You have way more leverage then.
29:41 Speaker 01 OK, delay if possible. But what if they really push early on?
29:45 Speaker 02 If you absolutely have to give something, do your research first. Find comparable salaries at similar companies for similar roles. Then give a broad range. Frame it like, based on my research for similar roles, I'm seeing ranges between $6 and dollars. Does that align with your budget for this position? And she recommends setting the bottom of your target range somewhere between the 50th and 80th percentile of your research findings. Don't lowball yourself.
30:08 Speaker 01 OK, research, broad range, frame it as market data. Got it. Now, offer is on the table. What's the actual negotiation etiquette? How do you ask for more without messing things up?
30:18 Speaker 02 She outlines three key elements for a smooth negotiation. One, gratitude. Always, always start by expressing genuine thanks for the offer and reiterate your excitement about the opportunity. Even if the offer feels low, start positive, sets a collaborative tone. Two, clarification. Ask questions to make sure you fully understand the entire package. Could you clarify how the bonus structure works?
30:41 Speaker 01 What's?
30:42 Speaker 02 What type of equity is this and what's the vesting schedule? This shows you're thoughtful and builds mutual understanding. Three, the ask. Be direct and succinct. No long, rambling justifications needed. State your target clearly. Based on my conversations and market research, I am targeting a salary of $1.
30:58 Speaker 01 Okay. Gratitude, clarification, the ask. And after you state your number, your target, what's Mann's absolute hashtag one rule?
31:04 Speaker 02 Uh huh. Her rule is gold. In the name of Dolly Parton and all that is good, please stop talking.
31:09 Speaker 01 Okay, just silence.
31:10 Speaker 02 Yes. Say less, make your ask, then be quiet, let them respond. Mann emphasizes that the rapport you've hopefully built before this moment should be enough. You don't need to over explain or weaken your position by talking yourself down. Often they'll come back somewhere between their initial offer and your ask. Silence creates the space for them to do that.
31:30 Speaker 01 That takes nerve, but I can see how it works. And negotiation isn't just about the base salary, right?
31:35 Speaker 02 Absolutely not. Remember the WELL formula. Think about the whole picture. You can negotiate for things beyond base pay. More vacation time, specific remote work arrangements like number of days, a budget for training or conferences, the type of computer you need, help with relocation costs. These are often one-time or easier costs for the company to approve than a permanent salary increase, but they can add huge value to your overall package and well-being. Just remember, she says, this negotiation, it's the beginning of your working relationship. So keep it positive, keep it respectful, aim for partnership.
32:09 Speaker 01 We've covered so much clarity, branding, networking, interviewing, negotiating. What's the ultimate point? What's the long-term goal of all this job shopping?
32:17 Speaker 02 The ultimate goal, Mann argues, is achieving career security, not job security. Job security, she says emphatically, is a total myth these days. She tells this really poignant story about her client, Albert. Dedicated guy, senior manager, worked 16 years at what seemed like a super-stable manufacturing company.
32:35 Speaker 01 16 years?
32:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's not stable.
32:38 Speaker 01 Then bam, laid off unexpectedly.
32:40 Speaker 02 Wow.
32:40 Speaker 01 And he was completely unprepared. Minimal online presence, agent resume, network was totally cold. It took a massive effort for him to rebuild everything. He did land a job, impressively, in about 90 days.
32:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:52 Speaker 01 With a $40,000 raise. Great outcome.
32:54 Speaker 02 Good recovery.
32:55 Speaker 01 18 months later, laid off again, different company, same result.
32:58 Speaker 02 Oh no, devastating. Except this time, Albert was surprisingly calm, serene even. Why? Because the first layoff taught him. He had spent those 18 months building career security. Recruiters were already reaching out to him regularly. His network was active and easy to reactivate. He'd been meticulously tracking his accomplishments. This time, he landed another great job in just three weeks with another raise. That's the difference career security makes.
33:25 Speaker 01 Wow, so career security isn't about relying on one company. It's about always being prepared, always having options.
33:31 Speaker 02 Exactly. It means actively maintaining your job shopper status even when you're happily employed. Because, as Mann puts it, "The ground beneath our professional feet is never as solid as it seems." The steps to maintain it are ongoing, not one and done. One, track accomplishments continuously. In your current role, note the "before" state of projects. Keep a running log of your achievements and their impact. Mann forgot she saved everyone 30 months' month until she checked her log. It's ammo for later.
33:59 Speaker 01 Right, build your evidence locker.
34:01 Speaker 02 Two, build relationships internally. Don't just focus outward. Cultivate real connections inside your current company. Schedule quick 15-minute check-ins. Go to the social events. Use chat for quick one-on-ones.
34:15 Speaker 02 Man realized after her own layoff that the texts from former coworkers offering help came because she genuinely cared about those relationships.
34:23 Speaker 01 Your internal network is your first safety net.
34:26 Speaker 02 Three, get clear on your next career step. Keep asking yourself, what's next for me? Even when you're content. Man says the easiest way to be irresistible to your next employer is to use your current employer to gain the skills and experience for that future role. Clarity helps you spot opportunities.
34:42 Speaker 01 Use your current job to prepare for the next one.
34:44 Speaker 02 Smart. Four, keep your online brand up to date and your network warm. Don't let it get stale. Put a recurring reminder on your calendar, maybe monthly or bimonthly, to update your resume, refresh your LinkedIn, add new contacts, reach out to five people you haven't chatted with in a while, and creating content regularly. That's the easiest way to keep your network warm at scale.
35:03 Speaker 01 So job shopping isn't just a technique for finding a job. It's really a mindset, an attitude, a proactive lifestyle that puts you in control.
35:11 Speaker 02 Precisely. It's about always having a Plan B, knowing your value isn't tied to one employer, and consciously choosing where you work each day. You own your career destiny.
35:22 Speaker 01 We have covered so much ground today, really transforming that often daunting, frustrating process of job seeking into the empowering strategic act of, well, job shopping.
35:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, by understanding and ditching those old myths, by embracing these proactive strategies, and by continually cultivating your professional presence. You're not just passively looking for a job anymore. You're actively attracting the right opportunities. You're compelling companies to see your unique value and ultimately to compete for you.
35:50 Speaker 01 So what does this all mean for you, our listener? This deep dive into reverse the search really shows that you have the power. You can stop waiting for clarity and start actively creating it.
36:00 Speaker 02 The job market, sure, it can be competitive. But armed with these timeless principles, principles really grounded in human psychology, you absolutely can stand out. You can be remembered. And you can engineer situations where companies are vying for your talent.
36:14 Speaker 01 We really hope this deep dive into reverse the search has given you a fresh perspective, maybe some concrete tools you can use starting today. And that brings us to our final provocative thought for you to mull over. What's one small, concrete step, inspired by today's deep dive, that you can take this week, like this week, to begin reversing your search and start actively job shopping for the career you truly desire?
36:36 Speaker 02 Think about it, one small step. Until next time, keep learning, keep growing, and keep diving deep.
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