Changing Careers

EP 3006 This relates to an interview between Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter, the host of the podcast "No BS Job Search Advice Radio," and Michelle Clark, a leadership coach and expatriate consultant who was living in Chile at the time. The interview focuses on the process of career change, exploring the challenges and anxieties associated with transitioning to a new career path. Clark emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, values identification, and personal branding in navigating this process. She advocates for a holistic approach to personal branding that goes beyond traditional professional qualifications and encourages individuals to explore their unique strengths and passions. ABOUT JEFF ALTMAN, THE BIG GAME HUNTER People hire Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter to provide No BS job search coaching and career advice globally because he makes job search and succeeding in your career easier. You will find great info and job search coaching to help with your job search at ⁠⁠JobSearch. Community⁠⁠ Connect on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/T⁠⁠heBigGameHunter⁠ Schedule a discovery call to speak with me about one-on-one or group coaching during your job search at ⁠www. TheBigGameHunter.us. We grant permission for this post and others to be used on your website as long as a backlink is included to ⁠www. TheBigGameHunter.us⁠ and notice is provided that it is provided by Jeff Altman, The Big Game Hunter as an author or creator. Not acknowledging his work or providing a backlink to ⁠www. TheBigGameHunter.us⁠ makes you subject to a $1000 penalty which you proactively agree to pay. Please contact us to negotiate the use of our content as training data.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:12Speaker 01

  Pricing participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  All right, so are you ready for a deep dive today? Because we are tackling career changes.

• 0:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 0:21Speaker 02

  But we're not just talking about like, you know, giving your resume a little facelip. We're talking like full on, you are a new, you reinvention.

• 0:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  And to help us with this, we are dissecting your notes. And a really fascinating interview with a career and expat coach named Michelle Clark.

• 0:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  And this was from the No BS Job Search Advice Podcast.

• 0:43Speaker 03

  I've heard of them.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. So she seems like she really knows her stuff.

• 0:47Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  And one of the things that she really emphasizes is that this idea of a career change, it's, it's really about so much more than just switching out your job title.

• 0:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're not just slapping a new coat of paint on the same old thing, are you?

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's like, it's about really aligning who you are at your core with what you're doing.

• 1:05Speaker 03

  It's a lot deeper than some people think.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  And that can feel kind of scary, right?

• 1:08Speaker 03

  Absolutely. It's stepping into the unknown.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  But Michelle actually says that feeling of fear, that like, oh my gosh, what am I doing, is actually a good sign. Yeah, it means that you're open to like, new possibilities.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Okay, so it's like a positive indicator that you're on the right track.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  I like that way of looking at it.

• 1:25Speaker 03

  Me too.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  Instead of being so afraid of that feeling, it's like, oh, this is good. This means I'm on the right track.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, lean into that discomfort.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  So where do you even begin with this whole process?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Well, it sounds like one of the first things Michelle has, or her clients do, is really dive deep into their values.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  Okay, values clarification, that's huge.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and not just like making a list, but really defining what those words mean to them.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  Oh, I get it, because like, success could mean a million different things to a million different people.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like, for me, success, for a long time, I thought it meant, you know, having a corner office and like, this fancy title. But then I realized that... What I really wanted was flexibility and freedom.

• 2:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Like, I wanted to be able to set my own hours and work from anywhere.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  There you go. See, so you uncovered your true values.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  And once I figured that out, it like totally changed my whole career trajectory.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  It's amazing what happens when you get real with yourself about what truly matters.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and Michelle talks about this too. It's like, sometimes you have to get rid of things that are no longer serving you. And she uses this phrase, disposing of internal goodies.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  Okay, disposing of internal goodies.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  Now I have to hear more about this.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  I know, right?

• 2:43Speaker 03

  What does that even mean?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Tell me about it, because it sounds kind of intriguing and kind of terrifying at the same time.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, what are we throwing out here?

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Right, so, okay, let's say you've done that work, you identified some of those internal goodies that you're ready to get rid of.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  How do you actually go from that to figuring out like, okay, what should I be doing?

• 3:01Speaker 03

  Right, it's like staring at a blank page.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 3:04Speaker 03

  Where do you even start?

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Well, Michelle actually calls this next stage the research phase.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  But it's not the kind of research you might be thinking, like, you know, researching companies. It's more about researching yourself and researching the job market in a way that's actually kind of fun.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Okay, I am intrigued. Tell me more.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  So she has her clients go on job boards and look at job descriptions, but not to apply for anything.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Just to pay attention to what sparks their interest.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I like that.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, what what are the job titles that make you go, huh, that sounds kind of interesting?

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Right, or like, what are the skills listed that you're like, oh, I've always wanted to learn how to do that?

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Exactly. It's like you're on a treasure hunt for your future self.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  I love that analogy.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think it's really smart because it takes the pressure off of like, having to have it all figured out.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Right, because I think so often we get stuck in this like, I don't even know what I'm looking for mode.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  And this is like a way to kind of just explore and see what's out there.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  Totally, and you might surprise yourself with what you discover.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's funny because she gives this example of this guy who used to work in like a really high level government position.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  And he thought that like his main skills were, you know, policy analysis and all this kind of stuff.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  But then through this process, he realized that what he really loved was moving people and organizing teams.

• 4:25Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  And so he ended up like completely shifting his career to do something that was more aligned with those skills.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  That's so cool, and it makes sense because we can get so caught up in like the label of what we do.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  That we forget about the actual skills and passions that we're bringing to the table.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Totally, and I think this research phase can really help with that because it allows you to kind of see your skills and your experience in a new light.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  Absolutely, and it also helps you identify any gaps or areas where you might want to develop new skills.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, that's a good point.

• 4:57Speaker 03

  Which can be really exciting, too.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, like giving yourself permission to like learn something new and grow.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Exactly, and that kind of ties into the next thing Michelle talks about, which is personal branding.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Okay, but like not the cheesy kind of personal branding.

• 5:09Speaker 03

  I don't know, not at all.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Because I feel like that word sometimes has such negative connotations.

• 5:15Speaker 03

  I know what you mean, like those elevator pitches.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  It's also forced.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what does she mean by personal branding?

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Well, she's all about bringing your full authentic self to the table, quirks and.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, like she even encourages people to share their passions and interests online.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Even if they seem like totally unrelated to their career?

• 5:34Speaker 03

  Exactly, because those things are still part of who you are.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Right, like I might be a lawyer.

• 5:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  But I also might be like a huge knitter.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  And that's okay to share that part of myself.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Absolutely, in fact, it might even make you more memorable.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Right, because it makes you more human.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Exactly, it's about standing out from the crowd in a way that feels genuine and authentic.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think in a world where everyone's trying to be so perfect and polished online.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  Tell me about it.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  It's like those imperfections and those quirks that actually make you more relatable. And more likely to connect with people on a deeper level.

• 6:08Speaker 03

  Exactly, because people can spot a fake a mile away.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  But when you're genuinely enthusiastic about what you do and who you are, that shines through.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that enthusiasm is contagious. It makes people want to learn more about you and what you have to offer.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Okay, so you're embracing your authentic self, you're excited about the possibilities.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  But then comes the scary part, right? Actually putting yourself out there.

• 6:34Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Like actually taking action.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  That's where the rubber meets the road.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Exactly, and that's where Michelle talks about this idea of experimentation.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  Okay, so tell me more about this experimentation phase.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  So it's like career change is like, kind of like jumping off the high dive?

• 6:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's that element of risk, isn't there?

• 6:49Speaker 02

  But you don't just like jump off the high dive without like knowing how to swim.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Exactly, it's about building those skills and that confidence before you take the plunge.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Okay, so how do we do that?

• 7:00Speaker 03

  Well, Michelle says to think of it like learning any new skill.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  Like you wouldn't expect to just wake up one day and be able to play the piano like a concert pianist, right?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  It takes practice and it takes experimentation and yes, it probably takes making a few mistakes along the way.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I am very familiar with the making mistakes part.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  But those mistakes are how we learn and grow.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  That's a good way to look at it.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  So instead of beating yourself up for not having it all figured out, embrace the wobbly figuring it out stage.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Okay, no more beating myself up, I can get behind that.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  But that does bring up the whole like interviewing thing.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Because even for someone who's not making a big career change, interviews are terrifying.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  Oh, tell me about it.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  So does Michelle have any advice for like how to actually show up for those conversations?

• 7:47Speaker 03

  She does, and it's good.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm all ears.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  So she says one of the best things you can do is actually to ask your own questions.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Okay, but like not the typical boring interview questions, right?

• 7:58Speaker 03

  No, no, not those. She's got some really interesting ones.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Okay, like what, give me an example.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  One of her favorites is to ask, if I were excelling in this role, what would that look like?

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Ooh, that's a good one.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Right, because it shows that you're already thinking about what success looks like. And it shows that you're ambitious and you're driven.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's also a way to like, kind of get them to be more specific about their expectations.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly, because sometimes job descriptions are kind of vague.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Well, for sure.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  And this is a way to be like, okay, but what does that actually mean in practice?

• 8:33Speaker 02

  I like that, and I bet it makes you stand out from other candidates.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Definitely, because most people are so busy trying to impress the interviewer that they forget to actually ask questions.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  That's so true.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  And then she has another one that's even bolder.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Okay, hit me with it.

• 8:47Speaker 03

  She suggests also asking, if I'm not excelling, how will you let me know?

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Whoa, okay, that is bold.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  But I kind of love it.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  It's like you're saying, I'm here to learn, and I'm not afraid of feedback.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Exactly, it's like acknowledging that you're not perfect.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that you're open to growth.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Which I think is such a valuable quality in an employee.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely, and it shows a level of self-awareness that a lot of people just don't have.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  It's refreshing to hear somebody ask for that feedback upfront.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  Right, because let's be real, most people don't actually want feedback.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Especially not when it comes to their job performance.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  But by asking for it upfront, you're showing that you're different.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're showing that you're serious about growth and development.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  This has been so eye-opening, like, my mind is officially blown.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Mine too, and we've covered a lot of ground, haven't we?

• 9:33Speaker 02

  We really have, from like, facing the fear of change.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  To embracing our authentic selves.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  Rocking those job interviews.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  I know, right? And let's not forget about those internal goodies that we need to dispose of.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Because sometimes letting go of the old is the best way to make room for the new.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  So true. So if you're feeling stuck in your career, remember, you are not alone.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  There's a whole world of possibilities out there.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  And it all starts with taking that first step.

• 10:03Speaker 03

  Even if it's a small one.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. So what resonated most with you from today's deep dive?

• 10:09Speaker 03

  What internal goodies are you ready to let go of?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Head over to our social media and let's continue the conversation.