Why the "Just Be Yourself" Is a Terrible Negotiation Advice - Dr. Laura Sicola

What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't a lack of skill — it's your definition of authenticity? In this thought-provoking conversation, communication expert, TEDx speaker, and Speaking to Influence author Dr. Laura Sicola challenges one of the most common beliefs about personal growth: the idea that being authentic means staying exactly as you are. From navigating unexpected career pivots to breaking free from the "expert's curse," Laura shares why the most successful people aren't the ones with perfectly planned paths—they're the ones willing to embrace discomfort, adapt their communication, and take opportunities before they feel fully ready. Together, we explore why fear often disguises itself as authenticity, how mastering different communication "languages" expands your influence, and why your next breakthrough may be hiding on the other side of a conversation you're afraid to have. You'll discover: Why "How did you get where you are?" might be the wrong question The hidden danger of the expert's curse How to communicate complex ideas without sounding simplistic The difference between authenticity and comfort Why code-switching isn't inauthentic—it's a leadership skill The role of courage, curiosity, and transferable skills in creating extraordinary opportunities This episode is packed with practical insights, powerful stories, and mindset shifts that will challenge the way you think about growth, influence, and what it really means to be yourself. If you've ever felt stuck between who you are and who you're becoming, this conversation is for you. Connect with Dr. Laura Sicola 🌐 - https://laurasicola.com/ 📖 - Speaking to Influence: Mastering Your Leadership Voice TEDx Talks - Want to sound like a leader? Start by saying your name right | Laura Sicola | TEDxPenn

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What if the thing that you call authenticity is actually just fear wearing a disguise? Today's guest is Dr. Laura Sicola, linguist, executive coach, and one of the sharpest minds working at the intersection of communication, influence, and leadership.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  The problem is that it's not really about authenticity. We use that word too often in inaccurate places. It's about comfort zone. You weren't comfortable with it. You didn't like it. It wasn't that you were being inauthentic to yourself as a human being.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Dr. Sicola spent years in academia mastering the art of sounding like an expert, only to discover that the corporate world didn't want the cape. They wanted the person who wore it. That tension is where this conversation lives, because most of us have been taught that growing means becoming someone that we're not. But Laura has a different take.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Not comfortable doesn't mean it's inauthentic. That's the difference. If your desire to succeed in those contexts is authentic, lean into the discomfort, learn to gain skill at it, and then incorporate those new skills into your this-is-me identity. I possess that too. Own it. That's the key to being authentic.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  She breaks down a fascinating concept called the prismatic voice, and why the most flexible communicator in the room is also the one with the most power. She also humors me at the beginning of the podcast by talking about the winding, unplanned career that most of us are really on, and the one thread that makes it all make sense.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  You know, the thread that makes you able to leap, kind of lily pad leapfrog from one to the other. I don't care what you study, as long as you develop transferable skills.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  We talk about authentic code switching, how your expertise might actually make you a worse communicator, and what it really takes to influence the people who need to hear what you have to say. If you've ever hidden behind your credentials, your comfort zone, or found yourself struggling to find the right words for the right situation, this episode is for you. Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of Granola free at granola.ai/Quami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns, and make sure

• 2:36Speaker 00

  to tell them that Quami with big swings only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com/Quami.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  So Laura, I want to start this episode in a different type of way. So instead of asking you how you got to where you are, I want you to tell us why you hate it when people ask you, how did you get to where you are today?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Love it. The, you know, the challenge for me, Quami, in answering that is that I think there's two kinds of career trajectories. There are those who know from the beginning, I want to be a surgeon, I want to be a, you know, a CFO of a whatever. And so the trajectory is very step-by-step linear. And then there are the others, the rest of us, who are much more follow the winding garden path. And if you look at any two nodes, they don't seem to be connected. Or maybe from point A to point B is semi-connected, but and B to C is, but not A to C. So when you look at the full journey, so to speak, it's like, how

• 3:47Speaker 01

  did you get from this beginning to that end? And it's hard to explain in a way that's short and succinct. But when you dig, it really does all make sense. And it's, it's all about how do you cobble the pieces together, the skills that you develop, the insights that you gain, the connections that you make in a way that in the end creates something that you couldn't have predicted from the beginning. But oh my gosh, is it the perfect combination? And it's where you belong. So that's, that's where I got.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  I love that because and I love how we landed too, where you belong. And I think the thing that is very difficult for us to appreciate, especially when we're going through the journey, is that where we belong isn't something that we can predict. And it takes a lot of trust, confidence and skills to be able to navigate through that to figure out where you belong. And so for you, in your career, as you were figuring things out, how were you able to successfully navigate to a destination that you didn't know existed?

• 4:53Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's always helpful for me, number one, to appreciate where I am to, when I get into a new position, to be excited about what I see as the possibility. And I need to know that I can see something in the future to work towards. So one eye is on where I think I'm going and my, my goals for that current role. And the other eye is a radar and is always kind of sweeping and keeping, being aware of what else is happening, reading newspaper headlines or digitally or otherwise, listening to conversations, listening to podcasts like this, to, I, to always keep a sense of what's

• 5:35Speaker 01

  new, what wasn't possible before, what was, I mean, they talked about kids who are entering college now, 50% of the jobs that exist when they graduate are jobs that don't currently exist. So how do you pick a career? How do you pick a major for a goal of a career when you don't even know what's going to be available five years from now? And, and that's the key, right? Is, is, so I needed to know, A, that I had a direction and a purpose that I would be satisfied to pursue, and that I could stay open to whatever other opportunities might come along that were even more exciting or more interesting than what I had originally predicted from my very narrow lens at the time.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  And that's where each opportunity has come from. One of those while focused on going to point B, a discovery about point Q that would never have been part of my imagination until. Suddenly there it was in front of me and not having the, it's not that I suddenly went with each one and went, I can do that. Sometimes I did, and sometimes it was like, could I do that? And can I convince them that I can do that? And having the chutzpah and the, the willingness to take the leap. I think that's, that's, you need to have the conviction in yourself first. Otherwise you'll never convince anybody else.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  I love this. There's so much to explore here and I, I like this last point that you made too, where you say, okay, first of all, we have that self doubt that we have to overcome where we have to say, is this something that I can do? And then can I convince other people that I can do it so they can give me an opportunity? But then do I have the confidence to actually execute? And it seems like the, the basis for all of this is trust in yourself and your skills, but also a, a wide eyed curiosity that keeps you exploring for other opportunities. And then you start to get a, a feeling like, oh, that's interesting. Let me explore more and that just playful curiosity turns into something a little bit more concrete. And then you say, let me take that leap.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  And so for you, when it comes to your journey through academia and then parlaying that into the, the professional world, can you tell us about the, the, the different nodes in your journey that got you to where you are from that point? Because I think there's something in there that's really powerful as it relates to communication too.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  The, the initial shift from, from academia to corporate, it was interesting. I had finished my PhD and was looking for what was for the next career leap because I realized way too late that tenured faculty, university, publisher parish life was really not for me. And that's something rather difficult to come to terms with when you spend seven years getting to the point where that's supposed to be what you're now entering into. And it was not a fit culturally or frankly financially.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  And it's not that, you know, I used to say that when you realize that there's a huge discrepancy in what social science professors, linguistics and other things like that make compared to the business professors, the engineering professors, the medical or law professors. I, I said, you know, I My, I was never motivated by money until you told me I couldn't have any.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  That's good.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  And it's, it's true. You know, the salaries that were being offered were not livable. And I thought I, I can't, I don't need to be rich, but I do need to not be poor. So, okay, if not, aside from the financial, again, the publishing publisher parish lifestyle, not really my thing. So if not that, then what? And I was at a wedding reception that summer and I was sitting next to somebody at the table and we were just chatting and he asked about my research and he asked about whatever else. And he said to me, you know, I've always had an interest and an instinct about what you do, but I never had the data to back it up. You have the data and I think it's relevant. Would you want to come and do a training for my team? And it turned out that he was the vice president of government programs at IBM.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Poof. Okay. Uh, and that was one of those things where I went, you know, can I do what for whom? And what would that look like? And so that was exciting because I'm a teacher naturally by background. That is my DNA. Um, so, okay, teaching, training, same thing, just different topic, different students, but same concept. So sure, I can lead a training for your people, but for 75 global leaders who are going to be flown in from all corners of the globe for my weekend with them, that was bloody terrifying to figure out what, how do I frame this in a way that's going to

• 10:34Speaker 01

  prove my worth to this kind of space. But that was the pivot point where I went, oh, well, that's interesting. That's, I can do everything they're asking me to do. I have the background. I have the skills. I need to adjust certain things. It was not the demographic that I was used to by any stretch of the imagination. So, you know, there was definitely some imposter syndrome stuff kicking in, you know, but am I just a teacher? Am I just a professor? Am I just a whatever else? Not a, you know, room full of CEOs from different countries from blah, blah, blah. But it was, yes, I can do this. And it's funny. I remember we had the conversation, we set up a follow-up call to discuss the details.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Got off the phone, you know, a month or so later on and we had negotiated the price. We had negotiated the logistics, all that kind of stuff. And I hung up and the first thing I said out loud to myself was holy and what did I just agree to?

• 11:32Speaker 01

  And it was like, I just promised I was gonna do this and I was gonna, I gotta make this happen. I don't know how I'm gonna make this happen, but I gotta make this happen. And that was the beginning.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  There is so much to explore here, Laura. I love this because at the beginning, we see the push and pull of curiosity. Because you knew what you wanted, but then you also discovered what you did not want. And so for the person listening, recognize that there's going to be both of those things. You are going to be attracted to things that you do like, but also pushed by things that you don't like. So you have to have a really deep understanding and be honest with yourself about what it is that you like and don't like. And recognize that there are going to be times where maybe society or people from the outside might be pushing you in a direction that makes sense to them from the outside, but deep down inside doesn't resonate with you. Because you were at the point that you wanted to get to because you were a tenure track. You were in academia, which was the goal.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  And then you got to the top of the mountain and recognized that you didn't want to be on this mountain. So that is the tension that led the curiosity to explore. And then you recognize here, you're having conversations and you're just an authentic conversation about what it is that you do. Then an opportunity pops up. That is luck, but not the trivial kind of luck. Luck as described as the, the combination of preparation and opportunity. You didn't see that coming, but you were ready when it did.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  There's a third ingredient in that equation.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  Tell me.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  So yes, luck is when preparation meets opportunity plus chutzpah.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Or moxie. You have to be willing to take the leap because there are enough people who will see that opportunity come and do technically have the skills and whatever else, but they will doubt and they'll be afraid. I don't know if I want to do that. I don't know if I'm comfortable doing that. I don't know if I could do it. What if I make a mistake? What if it's not the right thing? What if, what if, what if? And they'll talk themselves out of it. Pull the darn trigger.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  You have to be willing to step into the discomfort and do it anyway.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Let's explore this because what what's really fascinating about your story, Laura, is that there is that fear, but you had the hot spot to to take that risk. And then when you take that risk and you succeed, what is on the other side is a moment of elation and then immediately more fear because you're like, oh, my gosh, now I need to do it.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  They said, yes, oh, God, now I have to, right?

• 13:52Speaker 00

  Right. So so take us into that moment where you saw the opportunity and shot your shot. So that's the moment where a lot of people would say, I see it, but I'm not sure. Let me go back and think and then you come back and the opportunity is gone. So what in that moment gave you the moxie to shoot your shot when the opportunity presented itself?

• 14:11Speaker 01

  It was a now or never, like he asked the question, would you be interested? That is a binary, very easy choice, yes or no. And a, well, let me think about it is a no. This is a leader of a corporate mega organization who was handing me something on a silver platter. It is not the, well, let me think, no, either you want it or you don't. But if you're not a solid yes, why am I going to put you in front of my people? I'm not going to spend the time, the money, the resources. No, prove to me that you understand the value of the opportunity that I'm offering to you. That is very clean, yes or no?

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh, it's very clean and very scary and but you took the leap. And now let's talk about the the influence side too. Because as you are communicating and navigating the academic space, there's a way that you talk to your peers. There's a way that you interact with your students. There's like a language that is a shared language of jargon and approach and framing that is appreciated in that academic academic space. Then when you transition that to the business world, there's a different language that they need you to speak. So can you describe the the distinction between those languages? Because you might be speaking English, but it doesn't mean that you're speaking the same language. So let's identify that discrepancy.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  It's what I now call the expert's curse. And it's actually one of my most popular trainings now for my corporate teams that I work with is breaking the expert's curse. Because when you have become an expert in something, finance, IT, linguistics, whatever it happens to be, you forget what's not completely obvious, intuitive, known, interesting, necessary, useful, desired, or otherwise by everybody else. You assume that everybody should love and understand your topic as much as you do. And that's not the case.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  So for me, shifting out of academia, where, you know, I was at the University of Pennsylvania for for seven years at that point when I started looking. And I was there for a total of about 10 or 11. But to be, to get a PhD, you have to learn to talk, write, speak in academic terms. You have to use a lot of technical jargon. You have to use certain sentence structures. You have to use certain kinds of references. You have to use 75% of your words with four syllables or more. This is the way that they work. And that's not how corporate America likes. Everybody has their jargon. Everybody has their acronyms. Everybody has their alphabet soup.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  But when I, when I started shifting into the direction of the corporate training, consulting, coaching, et cetera, some of the feedback that I was getting was, okay, we know you're smart. Got it. Now, could you stop talking like that? Because it's too much. You know, we don't need all the details. We don't need all the big words. Can you just distill it down, boil it down, get to the point, simplify it, which is not dumbing it down? I think it was Einstein who said, if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  And that was something that I had to learn. People didn't want all the background, all the research, all of the explanation about why something worked. They just wanted me to tell them what worked and teach them how to do it. So that was something that was a real friction point for me in the beginning, because it's like, what do you mean? You want me to stop talking like this? Because I just spent seven years building this muscle, building this vocabulary, building this style that was a requirement for you to rubber stamp my degree. And it's my cape now. It's my superpower. You want Superman to remove the cape? I don't understand what you're asking for. Isn't that why you're hiring me? Because of my cape? And they went, yeah, yeah, we know

• 18:25Speaker 01

  you got the cape. Now take it off. We trust that it's in there. And just do this. So I had to really learn to adjust, to speak their language. And it felt weird. It felt a little inauthentic. It felt uncomfortable. Like, what do I have if not this? And but once you learn to speak their language, you get, yes, a whole lot faster. It's still your content. It's just framed in a way that they can receive and perceive more accurately. And that's the key. How do you how do you change your speaking style so that they can hear what you need them to hear?

• 19:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  That's the challenge.

• 19:06Speaker 00

  It's and it's a layered challenge, too.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  When we think about the goal of communication, it's to be understood and then maybe to get some kind of outcome. But then, when we realize the thing that gets in the way of effective communication is often an internal barrier that we haven't addressed, then we can say, okay, now I can see where I can how I can get from where I am now to where I need to be. Because I think about when I was, my background is psychology undergrad, law degree, master of public policy. And so similarly, we we learned how to speak in a in a similar way, adjunct professor, too. So it's still in in that academic world. And that currency, it's not just about the ability to communicate, it's the ability to confer status through the way that you speak. And so you're rewarded consistently through this. And so it's

• 19:52Speaker 00

  It's not, it's because you're correct. It is the expert's curse, the curse of knowledge. It makes it more difficult for us to articulate an idea to somebody who doesn't have that same level of depth of knowledge. But then there's also that ego barrier that is often unspoken, where I like to speak this way because it makes me feel better. I tell people, when I was practicing law, they would ask me, why are these contracts so complicated? I said, we could make these contracts much more, much simpler, but then you wouldn't need us. Legalese insurers, we keep on getting paid.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  That's legit.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  And so, let's talk about what it takes to get over that ego, that arrogance that holds us back from making this necessary transition. Because I believe the person who's listening can understand it and they can agree with it. But there might still be that internal friction that holds them back because they want to speak in this way because it feels authentic, it feels right, and in the past it conferred status. How can we give them permission to let go of that and make the adjustment? Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather,

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• 22:48Speaker 01

  I think a big part of it frankly is that wearing that superpower of sorts, that super cape, it's your security blanket. At the same time, it helps you feel smart. So if you're not talking in those terms, you're afraid you don't sound smart, or you sound dumb, or you sound average, or not special in some ways. And there's also a lot of times where people will give too much information, too much detail, too much technical jargon, in some ways because they're educating their audience through the fire hose method, right? Open mouth, turn on fire hose, drown the other person in detail, and hope that

• 23:28Speaker 01

  they, there's nothing left to ask a question about. That I've front loaded all the information possible. So now you can't ask me a question because I've already pre answered anything. And because questions are scary. I don't know what question you might ask. And I don't, then if I can't answer it, then I really look stupid. And then there's a problem. So we're trying to preempt that as much as possible. And using big words, extra data, more jargon, that's another frankly, smokescreen in many ways. Hoping that you may not understand everything that I'm saying, but you'll think I sound smart enough that you'll give me the benefit of the doubt that at least I know what I'm talking about. And you'll just take my word for it.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  And that's a really, something that people really do psychologically unconsciously. They don't know that they're doing it, but that's often their motivation for layering on that kind of language extra thick.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  That's really good. That is really good. And I want to explore the, the idea of dumbing it down because I think that is something, again, that kind of speaks to the underlying arrogance of it all, too, that holds us back from using this effectively. Because this was something for me that helped me to, to appreciate the power of simplicity. I, I held on to that Einstein quote also when I first heard it. I said, oh my gosh. Now, now it became, I got to, to, um, like target my arrogance in a different direction. It's like, oh, the way to show I'm smart is by being able to explain it simply. Okay, now I can do it. Now I can do it. And, and I think there's real magic in that. And so now when I communicate, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. I think about it in terms

• 25:09Speaker 00

  of the minimum effective dose. When I'm trying to persuade, I'm trying to persuade with precision. I don't know what the person needs to hear in order to get the point across. So I need to be more curious, listen, so I could actually aim the thing that I'm saying with simplicity, brevity, and precision to actually meet the needs of the person on the other side. A lot of times in other, in other cases, it's almost like a defense mechanism where I don't want to be challenged. So I'm going to confuse you with big words. And so what ends up happening is the person doesn't ask any more questions. So you feel like you're in a good place. But what you've done is you've created an unsafe environment where they don't feel comfortable displaying their ignorance. Not ignorance in a, in the terms of like an insult, ignorance in the terms of they don't have that information,

• 25:54Speaker 00

  right? There's just a gap. So they don't feel safe and they say, I'm confused, but I don't want to let this person know that I'm confused. So I'm just going to say, you know what? You're right. I'm going to move on.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then you wonder at the end of it, why they didn't ultimately agree. If you're in sales or in negotiation, why didn't they accept the deal? It just seemed like everything went really well from your perspective. But from the other side, they just said, you know what? It's safer to shut down and then tell them no later.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, agreed. You know, and I often tell my clients, it's very counterintuitive. But the best way to make someone else think you're smart is to make them feel smart by explaining your point to them in a way that is so crystal clear and simple that they hear it and they go, "Oh, right. Got it. Okay, let's go."

• 26:46Speaker 01

  And that's really counterintuitive.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. Oh, this is great. Let's talk about the psychology of this and the psychology of word choice, because this is how we get to being very influential. And I think a lot of times people miss the depth of psychological brilliance that goes into your work. So let's talk about the psychology of word choice and how it can really have a pivotal impact on the quality of a conversation.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Word choices, we talk a lot about the relationship between what you say and how you say it, right? I hear the question aloud, "Which is more important?" Or people just will make the assumption, "Well, it's not what you say, it's how you say it that matters." No, what you say is hugely important. It's about the alignment between what you say and how you say it. So if you think in terms of building a house, you need the foundation first before you put up the walls. And if your message is a house, what you say, your word choice, is the foundation. And the delivery part is the walls that you build on top of it. That's the visible part of it.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  So the word choice is whether you go into hyper-technical details or an analogy like I just used to give you a visual image to help you to paint a picture with something that is a very easy to understand. Everybody's experienced it. Everybody's immediately, a picture came into everybody's mind as they were listening to that analogy of whatever house it was, doesn't matter. Everybody's house was different, but there was a foundation and there were walls on top of it. So being able to help someone connect with something in their own experience and then apply that experience to my point.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Is, was it dumbing it down? No. Was it paving the road to help you get to my point faster? Absolutely. So the what you say definitely matters. Then the how you say it will, will be the, the paint, so to speak, from there and help make it better. Because if, look, I, if I'm going to give you feedback, I can say to you, look, call me, I mean, I think you're an idiot, but you know, it's, it's nothing personal. And you're gonna go, it's just, but I said it nicely. Laura, you, I don't care that you said it nicely. You told me I'm an idiot. Get off my show. You know, so it's not just about how you said it. The word choice definitely matters, especially in real sensitive issues like that.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh, let's go deeper into this too. Because this is one of the things that I think holds people back a lot when it comes to their perspective of authenticity. They say, well, Laura, you don't understand. This is just how I am. I tell it like it is. Right? So I talk to you the same way I talk to everybody else. And that is how I operate. This is my version of authenticity. So what are your thoughts on somebody who uses authenticity, essentially as a shield to protect themselves from having to make any adjustments?

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Hmm. What that, whether, what they're doing with that shield is actually using it to create their own cage, because it's their limit for who they will allow themselves to influence in the future, or at least in the way that they want to have influence over them. If you want to expand your sphere of influence, you have to have flexibility in your communication. The person who is the most flexible in the negotiation is the person who has control over it. And that is something people don't like to hear. But the, yes, we want you to be authentic. And recognize that authenticity is not binary. This is me. That's not me. I gotta be me and

• 30:32Speaker 01

  just tell it like it is. That's not going into the long game. That's throwing a grenade into the conversation. It may feel cathartic for the moment to pull the pin. Great. It felt good that you got your point out. You may have won the battle. You are gonna lose the war. Because no one will join you. No one is interested in hearing what you had to say and understanding your perspective if they know that all you care about is throwing grenades. So the analogy that I like to use, Kwame, is that inside, it's not black and white. It is, we have what I call a prismatic voice. And if you've ever seen one of those little sun catcher crystals that hangs from the kitchen

• 31:17Speaker 01

  window, or maybe somebody's rearview mirror, the sun hits it, you know, and then the little rainbow comes out the other side. So in that same way, we are that sunlight. We are that white light. And in us are all of those colors in the spectrum naturally. Now, look, I'm a Jersey Italian. We don't do woo woo, but work with me here. Just go with me on the analogy. Okay. So we've got the, you know, here, I'm in my coach mode. I'm in my linguist, whatever mode. So I'm giving my examples. I'm telling my stories. I'm giving my explanations. In a certain language style, examples, et cetera. We'll call that my purple. I also have a nine year old at home. I don't talk to him like this. Different content, different style. You

• 32:02Speaker 01

  know, when he was a toddler, I used a totally different style. We'll call that my red. You know, and are you a sports fan?

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  What's your team? What, where do you go nuts? Who are you obsessed over?

• 32:13Speaker 00

  The Ohio State Buckeyes.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  All right. So when the Buckeyes are, and you're out with your friends, and you're an alumnus, I assume?

• 32:21Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Three time Buckeye.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Three time Buckeye. Love it. Okay. So when you're out with your Buckeye friends, and you're watching the basketball game, basketball, football, either both?

• 32:30Speaker 00

  We don't talk about basketball. It's football.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Okay. Just making sure. Want to make sure I'm clear here. So when they're having a bad day, and the, the ref calls a bad call, and it hurts them even worse, true or false? You and your boys will use language that is a little more colorful with perhaps a slightly higher proportion of words with only four letters in them than you would do on this podcast? Would that be a fair assumption?

• 32:57Speaker 00

  That, that is for sure. And if you catch me on camera, it wasn't me, but for the purposes of this podcast, yes, let's assume that's true.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Okay. And what color are, what color are the Buckeyes?

• 33:07Speaker 00

  It's not red. It's scarlet and gray.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Okay, got it. So in your prismatic voice, that's your scarlet. That's your scarlet first. And so, but that's not how you would show up here on the podcast, necessarily. Slight adjustment in the tone. It's still you. Both of these are authentically you. That you just know that in this context, for this audience, for this purpose, for this message that you want them to hear, you know, you need to adjust the hue, adjust the tint, a little bit for them to be able to receive what you need them to receive. So all the colors are yours. You own all of them. You just recognize how you want to adapt which color you want to turn up, which color you want to turn down, just a little bit, or maybe not so little,

• 33:52Speaker 01

  for you to achieve your ultimate purpose, short term and long term. It's owning the spectrum, not just the black and white on or off.

• 34:00Speaker 00

  I love the way that we're conceptualizing. First of all, prismatic voice, I, this is brilliant. I wish I would have thought about this. I hope you've trademarked this.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  It's all in my book. It's all in the book. So I'll happily send you a copy of it, but it's all there.

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Okay, good. Because I want the flag to be planted, because I think that's brilliant. And what I love about this too, is that you are honoring the full spectrum of authenticity and giving people permission to acknowledge the fact that there are different versions of their authentic self, which allows us to talk about code switching and the challenge that so many people have with it. But then also thinking about it from a perspective of inclusion as well. How do we embrace our superpower of code switching while at the same time making sure that we are not compromising our integrity in the process?

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Sure. I think a big part of it is starting with the acceptance of the idea that authenticity is not synonymous with comfort zone.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  And preference that we talked earlier about, okay, speaking Spanish, speaking Japanese, speaking Pig Latin, speaking whatever languages you have learned, that you may not be as good, as competent, as confident in those languages as you are in English, as I am in English. But it doesn't mean I'm being inauthentic to use them. I'm just, I don't like them as much if because insofar as I don't, I'm not as comfortable using it, so I don't enjoy the comfort level.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  But I still know that in this, in whatever context, if I visit Mexico, I visit Japan, it'll help me better if I can fumble my way through those languages instead of just hoping that they speak English. Well, same, when I'm talking to a team of IT leaders, I'm going to use different analogies than if I'm leading a training for a bunch of finance leaders or a bunch of architects.

• 36:00Speaker 00

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• 36:44Speaker 00

  That's Shopify.com/Quami. Go to Shopify.com/Quami to hear your first. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters- Start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag.

• 37:27Speaker 00

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• 37:50Speaker 01

  Because I want to speak their language. It, I may not be as comfortable in the IT world and not as confident in my range of examples to use, but I'm going to make sure that I'm trying to connect with them and share something that makes my work relevant in their space. So getting out of the notion of comfort as a requirement for authenticity is the only way to grow because any learning curve by definition is outside of the comfort zone. You want to learn to play golf? Tell me anybody who picks up a golf club the first time says, oh, this grip feels totally natural.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  No, that's not how it works at all. Speak from experience. And if you're going to learn a foreign language or if you're going to get a promotion from a VP to an SVP. Okay. Well, that new role is going to require some new tasks, some new audiences, some new challenges that you're not as good at, you're not as experienced with, you're not as comfortable with. Some conflicts you're going to have to handle. Not comfortable doesn't mean it's inauthentic. That's the difference. If your desire to succeed in those contexts is authentic, lean into the discomfort. Learn to gain, to gain skill at it and then incorporate those new skills

• 39:12Speaker 01

  into your this is me identity. I possess that too. Own it. That's the key to being authentic.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  This is so good because I'm thinking about it through the lens of authentic growth. Because if we are saying to ourselves, this is who we are and we are too limited in that perspective, then we're using authenticity to prevent us from allowing us to grow, you know? Because it's borderline saying.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  Skills acquisition is by definition inauthentic because you weren't born with those skills.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Right. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

• 39:48Speaker 00

  So we should be the same person like what when as if we were just born. Anything beyond that is inauthenticity. That is absurd, right? And so when you see, think about it extrapolating from that perspective, then you realize, whoa, I have been limiting myself. And I think there's the vibe that sometimes happens, and I can speak from experience too. Sometimes I'm not the kind of guy who blank. It's like, well, maybe, maybe you should be the kind of guy who does this thing. You know, because for, for example, I travel a lot, a lot for this different speaking engagements and keynotes. And I'm, in order to travel a lot, you have to be a skilled traveler. Skill, there is a skill in traveling.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  And I've gotten to the point where I can pack very, very quickly. That does not mean that I should consistently wait till thirty minutes before heading to the airport to pack. Just because it hasn't blown up in my face yet, doesn't mean that it's the preferable thing to do. I don't need to prepare. Well, but would your, would you be better off if you did? Maybe you should be the kind of guy who prepares a little bit better, you know? So it's like, I'm recognizing that there has to be a bit of an internal negotiation in order to have that growth authenticity authentically. Because sometimes we don't recognize that our own limited mindset is what is holding us back from being the person that we ultimately truly want to become.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yes. And if anybody has mental friction against that, I challenge you to go back and look at your high school senior yearbook picture.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Tell me what you just pictured in your mind, Kwame. What was the hair like? What were you dressed as? What were you going, this is cool? I'm gonna be this guy forever. What was your eighteen year old self looking like?

• 41:39Speaker 00

  First of all, for those who are listening on audio, Laura, you can see, I'm a very competent person. I'm very mindful of my posture. And here I am just slouched over all the like disgusted. Yeah, and so what was I doing? I, first of all, I envy my hair. It's gone now.

• 41:58Speaker 00

  Just a quick little aside to answer then to your question. Last night, I was, every year, what I would do is I would grow out my hair to let people know that this is a stylistic choice. So I was doing that, my annual hair growth last night, and then my son was standing behind me, he's ten, and he's like, Dad, why do you have hair here but not here, right at the top of the center of your head? And he's poking my head as he's making these observations. I went downstairs, shaved my head immediately. So

• 42:28Speaker 00

  first thing I was thinking about is the hair. Then beyond that, I would think, well, I didn't know Spanish. I would think about the skills that I didn't have. I was a people pleaser, so I wasn't standing up for myself very frequently, so I wasn't having those conversations, letting things slide a lot. And I think about the man that I've built today was constructed by intentionality. I recognized some kind of deficiency or something that I wanted to build, and I filled those gaps. So the first, the thing that I would think about when I look at those old pictures are the skills that I cherish right now, that I did not have at that point,

• 43:08Speaker 00

  and how much better my life became with each of those skills that I acquired. So those are the things. And just the lack of knowledge of what is to come and what I thought I was going to be at the time, and just thinking, oh, he knows so little but thinks he knows so much.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yes. So what did you think you were going to be at the time? What was, you were convinced you were destined to be what?

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Yes. So I went in, I was curious about business. So I was like, I think I might want to do some business. And then I got into a psychology class, and that was my first academic love, instantly. Laura, that gave words to things that I was curious about, that I wasn't aware of. So the study of psychology, how people think, decision making, all of those things, it gave me a deeper understanding of myself and others. So at the time, I said, oh, I'm going To either be a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist so I could help people. The goal with everything that I did was always to help people. And so I wanted to help people to overcome their barriers so they could live their best life.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  I recognized that the knowledge of psychology helped me to change my life in a meaningful way, too. So early on, that was the goal. And as I described that, people can understand the way that I teach negotiation and use it. Because negotiation is just a branding term that allows me to teach those skills that can help people live their best life.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yes, love it, love it. And it's so you figured it out pretty quickly where you wanted to go with it. You know, I had a moment, I remember in high school, I thought I was destined to be a lawyer. I loved watching TV shows about, you know, courtroom drama and the negotiation and the argument and the debate and all that kind of stuff. That was sexy and that's where I wanted to go. Then I remember at some point there was a career day and I heard a lawyer talk and describe law school as basically being three years of living in a library, reading really thick, dense, boring cases. And I thought to myself, no, that is not, no, that that sounds like a terrible idea.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  So I shifted and God said, oh, lazy, are you don't want to do three years of grad school? Try seven, go do a PhD, see you later, have fun with that.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, we cannot smart God.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Right, I love this. We all find our way some way and it's almost like Jonah going in the wrong direction.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  Puts you back on track, right? That's great.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  After having the whales spit you out first.

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Exactly. Perfect. Well, hey, before we wrap, let's make sure to bring in Simone. Simone, I know you've been listening patiently and I know you have some insightful question or observation to share.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  You know that I had to change my language. I speak Spanish and when I immigrated to Canada, I started speaking Spanish. I started to work with Kwame because I wanted to learn English. So he gave me the opportunity. I said, I want to learn about negotiation and English. The thing is that when I started with Kwame, I couldn't speak English. So he speaks Spanish, right? So he helped me. But then, when I was learning English, I felt I changed myself. So I refused to speak English to Kwame because I thought inside of me, Kwame won't be able to see my real person. So maybe I look like stupid person

• 46:32Speaker 02

  or maybe he won't be able to see all the things I know, you know? So I was afraid of being myself in English. So I was like trying to protect myself. But it turns out that when I just accepted that I couldn't speak English as I speak Spanish, I felt free and it turns out that it was all my fear. So maybe what keeps us, keep us

• 47:01Speaker 02

  or prevent us from being real, really ourself or actually ourselves is fear. I still make a lot of mistakes in English, but it's okay. Imagine this, I am speaking in a podcast in English and I still make mistakes and I am myself anyways, right? So it's like what you were talking about, while you were talking about this, I was reminding of myself. I was remembering when I started with Kwame and the fear I felt. So it's mostly about leaving fear behind and try and just be yourself and trust, not only trusting yourself, but trusting that other people will understand what you're trying to do, right?

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, I think we hold ourselves back way too much. You know, the fear of speaking other languages and the frustrations. I remember a couple of years ago, my older son is 23, and when he was 20, I took him to Italy, and we had the opportunity to go and visit my husband's family, some ancestral house and whatnot, that's still out there, which is really neat. And he'd been studying Italian just for a couple of months and a year or so in prep for the trip. And he's, he's very social, he's very confident, he's really smart. So he was comfortable for the trip in general. But when we got to the

• 48:23Speaker 01

  family, and we're looking through old shoeboxes of photographs, because everybody who was still there was like 80 something years old, didn't speak any English. So it was me translating a lot, and otherwise him working on what he could do. And I remember him, you know, getting frustrated at one point. And I said to him, don't you just wish that you could get a Post-it note and write, in my language, I'm smart, and stick it on your forehead? And he looked at me, and he was like, yes, oh, my gosh, yes. It's so because to your point, Simone, you know, it's like, in my language, I could sound so much more interesting. I could tell better stories. I could get, I could make sure that the nuances weren't lost. And I feel like I'm kind of, you know, hamfisting my

• 49:06Speaker 01

  way through this and just talking like a kindergartner. And I sound like, but if the goal is to connect, that's what you do. You know, you feel the fear and do it anyway, which is the definition of courage. And you make your connections, and you do what you need to do. But it is, it's not inauthentic for you to speak in English in those early stages, for him or me to speak in Italian. My Italian is certainly not eloquent by any stretch of the imagination at this stage. But you want to make that connection. That's the authenticity. So you work on it together.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  This is so great. And just a quick note on Simone, because we've been working together now. This is going to be, I believe, our sixth year. And one of the cool things that we've all appreciated on the team is seeing more of Simone's personality come through as he has gotten more proficient in English. It's great. And it's, and that's the thing too, because um, when it comes to expressing yourself in different contexts, if we start to think about everything as a different language, then it becomes easier to understand what the path forward is. Because essentially what Simone has done, it's language immersion, trial by fire. You have to learn how to speak English. You're working for the American Negotiation Institute,

• 50:26Speaker 00

  where the CEO happens to speak Spanish too, that makes it easier. But um, but by putting himself in that position, he forced himself to level up. And when we think about code switching, the only way you can find an authentic version of yourself in a different culture or context is by putting yourself there. So you, and what I'm hearing here is something that we've kind of been tiptoeing around, but haven't said before. A lot of times when we say, I'm not going to do that because it's not my authentic self, or that's not what I do, that is us um, giving more palatable language to fear. We're, what we're really saying is, I don't want to do this because I'm afraid. I don't want to do this because I don't know if I can pull this off. I don't want to do this because I don't know if I have what it takes.

• 51:09Speaker 00

  Instead, I'm just going to say, no, that's not me. So I'm not going to do it, right?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Yes. See, I don't like it.

• 51:16Speaker 00

  Exactly. And I think just a little aside too, because when I was studying abroad in Ecuador, that was, Lord, to your point, that was the one thing that I wanted to convey more than anything else. I'm like, listen, where I'm from, I'm smart. Okay, I can speak intelligently. That's all I wanted to do. But because I couldn't articulate things the way that I wanted to, I was listening and quiet more than I should have. Because the thing that's really funny is that the path to success, the path to getting to where we want to go, means that we have to go through that fear. If I don't have what it takes to speak Spanish well enough for people to know that I'm intelligent, the, the natural response is the exact opposite of what we need. The natural response is to speak less Spanish, when what we need to do is more of it.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  And so it's really interesting that-

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Take the feedback.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  Exactly. We need that feedback. And so one of my mantras is follow the fear. Whenever there's a fear that I have, I'm like, oh, I'm not going to run for it. I chase the fear. It's like, oh, you, you, the fear thinks it controls me. I'm going to make the fear fear me. I'm chasing you now. You know, because now it will lead us to where it is that we really want to go.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yes, I think Tony Robbins often says that your next big breakthrough is just on the other side of fear.

• 52:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  You gotta do it. You know, it's funny, the, I, I, I lived in Japan for a number of years and especially in customer service and in other social settings, the, the ideal attractive female voice is very high, very sweet, very kind of Minnie Mouse kind of, and in case you can't tell, that's not me. Naturally, that's not where I live. And in some ways, it was antithetical in my interpretation of it to what I believed. The values that I wanted to project, strength and authority and, and confidence and all this kind of stuff. It just sounded too.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  You know, I had all sorts of other labels for how I thought about that super high level, high pitched voice. But I realized that when speaking in Japanese, like in English, it does not work. But in Japanese, if I was invited to someone's house for a family gathering of some sort, and I got to meet their grandparents who maybe had never met a foreigner before, and it was a little weird to talk to the somewhat of a different race, of a different nationality, et cetera, that I needed them to lower their internal barriers to feel not weird talking to this stranger. So I could shift up and just use a slightly sweeter voice. And when I spoke, and it sounds weird in English,

• 54:02Speaker 01

  in Japanese, to them, it sounded more approachable. And so I could say to myself, ew.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And that's not me, and I don't like it. And it seems to represent everything I don't want to be, except. From their lens, I recognized it made me more approachable, more acceptable. And I didn't want them to be distracted by this voice coming out. I just wanted them to see me. I wanted them to be willing to engage with me, to be comfortable. It was me who was getting distracted by the voice. And so I can do it. Did I like it? Not particularly, but I liked the effect that it had. And it wasn't me being inauthentic. It was me code switching and recognizing this will help me achieve my ultimate end. Connecting with those people, having them hear who I am and what we want to talk about,

• 54:54Speaker 01

  not being distracted by the pitch of my voice. That was my barrier to overcome, not theirs.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  This is so good. Laura, I could talk to you forever about this. I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your brilliance with us. This is such a unique piece of content, so I appreciate you taking this journey. And before you go, for the listeners who want to connect and learn more about what you do, what is the best way for them to connect? Tell them about your book and how they can get in touch.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Wonderful, thank you. Well, the easiest place to go is my website, which is very simply laurasicola.com. My book is there. My TED Talk link is there. If you want a 15 minute quick summary of things like the prismatic voice and whatnot, my TED Talks got about seven million views, which isn't too terrible. And it's called Want to Sound Like a Leader? Start by Saying Your Name Right. So you could check that out on YouTube. The book itself is called Speaking to Influence: Mastering Your Leadership Voice. And we dig deep into all the things that we've been talking about today. So would certainly invite people to take a look at that. And if nothing else, on the website, feel free to look into subscribing for the newsletter.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Comes out once a week, stories, tips, no spam, but great insights that help you get to yes faster.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  Amazing. Laura, thank you again for joining us. Really appreciate it.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Well, it was my pleasure, Kami. Thank you so much for the invitation.

• 56:16Speaker 00

  Boom. Amazing. Okay.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  And you know what? If, if, I don't know if you want, if this is worth it, can I offer a gift?

• 56:23Speaker 00

  Oh, please do. Yeah, please do. We'll stitch it in.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, and if I can offer a gift, what I would love to do is offer my leadership blind spot checklist. And it's a very simple one pager. I'll give you the link for, you can put it in the show notes, I guess. And there's, it's one page to download to, with a nice little checklist to look for. That's going to help you realize what creates the gap between what you think you said and what they think they heard. It's where we all get in our own way and we blame them and we don't realize it's us.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Oh, so good. I will be downloading that. So thank you for that generous gift, Laura. Really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Aaron's Mele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work. With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the US Surgeon General to NFL and NBA stars.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show, too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.