Why Smart People Still Fall Apart in Chaos - Liz Tran

Most people are optimizing for the wrong kind of smart — and it's costing them everything when the world shifts. Liz Tran is a former venture capital executive, CEO coach, and author of AQ. She spent years inside the highest-pressure rooms in tech before walking away to build a coaching practice rooted in one conviction: the people who thrive in chaos aren't the smartest or the most emotionally intelligent — they're the most adaptable. Connect with Liz Website: https://liz-tran.com/ LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/liztran1 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/liztranwrites/ Headshot Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N6ik2WblfgHVX7NSRbfpR96g56f4Uxd6/view

• 0:01Speaker 00

  You've heard of IQ, you've heard of EQ, but there's a third kind of intelligence, and it might be the one that actually matters most right now.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  AQ is your capacity to handle that change, uncertainty and unknown, and truly what I believe to be the intelligence that we need for the world today because of how much uncertainty there is.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  My guest today is Liz Tran, venture capital executive, CEO coach, and author of AQ. And in this episode, we're getting into the one skill that separates the people who thrive in chaos from the ones who get swallowed by it.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Now, when I'm feeling discomfort, when I'm dreading a conversation or I'm dreading a task that I have to do, or even I don't want to respond to this email, I want to just close my inbox and not even look at it or read it. I actually think, okay, discomfort is signal that you are growing. If you wait until you know exactly how the outcome is going to unfold, then you're not making the right bet. It will be too late. You will have missed the moment. Right? You're just doing something that is still within your status quo. And what we're all tasked to do is to broaden and widen the aperture of our comfort zone.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  If you listen to this show, you're probably one of two people. You're someone who's trying to improve their communication skills and learn how to resolve conflict, or you're a dealmaker who's trying to learn how to get an edge in their next negotiation so you could either make more or save more. The American Negotiation Institute is built for both. We have keynotes for conferences, workshops for teams, and courses for everyone because the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. Tell us, because this is your second book, right? So first of all, tell us what got you ready to write a second book? Because a lot of times, people feel that first one and they're like, you know what? I've had enough books. So tell us what motivated you to write book number two.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  My first book, I always say that that's the book I wrote for me, for myself. And I thought to myself, you know, if no one else reads this, maybe I'm hopeful that maybe my children will potentially find me interesting enough one day to actually read it when they can read. But beyond that, I really wrote it to sort of make sense of a really volatile but important chapter of my life. So I worked in tech since 2008, and that ultimately led me to being the only female executive at a top venture capital firm. And we were investors in companies like Instagram, Spotify, OpenAI, Skims.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  And I felt like after a few years there that there was more I wanted to do, that I had a purpose or a calling that I felt connected to. And growing up, I was Catholic, but since then, I've become really interested in Buddhism and Eastern philosophies. And they have really guided my internal search for finding the right career and also a lot of the career decisions that I've made. And so I consider myself a Buddhist now. And so the first book I wrote is called The Karma of Success. And it's about how to choose your career path, your, you know, big decisions in life, and to do it from a place that's very internal as opposed to, you know, what is most prestigious

• 3:25Speaker 01

  or what is, you know, what people are telling you you should do or who you think you should be. And so in a way, we, I think people say authors often write the book that they need for themselves. And so I was making this biggest transition to a career that felt good to me, but other people may not have understood. And so it's all kind of encapsulated in that book. And the book is really a hybrid of spirituality and business together. And while I was writing that book, I was writing a chapter about change and the ability to handle change, because I think it is very important to one's equilibrium, one's happiness, one's ability to go out there and strive for what you want, to, you know, not have

• 4:10Speaker 01

  such fight or flight when it comes to change that's happening to us. So I started writing a chapter, and I realized this should actually be an entire book. And I had seen this in my work with founders at early-stage startups that, you know, it's so much more than how smart you are, quote unquote, on paper, or what life experiences you've lived. So much of what made them successful was the ability to handle that change, to deal with that disappointment and to feel okay and rooted in uncertainty. And so the book came out, the first book came out in 2023. And in 2024, I said to my husband, I'm not writing another book for a few years. Don't let me do it. But there was so much uncertainty in the world. We are going through a big election in the US.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  And as we all know, Joe Biden dropped out at kind of the last minute. And everyone was thinking, what's going to happen? Who's going to win? What's my life going to look like? There was a lot of geopolitical instability as well. We had quite, you know, Ukraine and Russia were at war. We were wondering if there's going to be a world war three. And I thought, you know, if there's ever a time to write this book about change, disappointment, uncertainty, it is now. And if there's ever a time for me to write it and give myself the book that I need, it's this year when I'm becoming a mom for the first time. So my daughter was born in January 2024. And she has been the most delightful, adorable, sometimes frustrating lesson in handling change and disappointment and uncertainty.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Because, you know, there are so many things that, that we want to control in life. And to a certain extent, we can, we can go to our thermostats and we can make our room the exact temperature that we want. We can plan our calendar so that it's exactly giving us 30 minutes in between meetings. We can even control our bodies. We can go to the gym, you know, people are taking GLP-1s now. But children are not one of those things that we can control from a standpoint of predicting them and keeping them orderly. And so I thought, you know, might as well write this manual for myself and for other people. And my publisher sort of fast tracked it because there was so much change happening. There's this, the Federal Reserve has what's called the Trade Uncertainty Index.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  So they scan the news every month and they give a score about how, you know, unpredictable world trade is, you know, international trade. And for the past 10 years, it's hovered around 85. Normal, very average. And then in 2025, it hit 900. So a 10 increase in just one year. And then it's been up and down since then every month. Some, but this is really unprecedented. So I think we're living in very unprecedented times. And this book is for anyone who feels like, oh, maybe I'm not so good at change. Maybe I'm not so good at feeling that uncertainty. Plus AI is coming in. I don't know what this means for my job.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  And I want to write a book that helps people feel empowered and realize, no, you actually do have all the skills that you need to thrive in this extremely, I call it, it's not just incremental change that we're experiencing. It's an exponentially changing universe. And so I want people to feel like they have everything that they need to thrive in this exponentially changing universe.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Oh, my goodness. So much to explore, Liz. So much to explore. And, you know, I'm going to start at an interesting place. Because when you're talking about change, there are three terms that came up all the time. So change, disappointment, and uncertainty. How did you choose those three terms?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Well, I think why I chose them is because change comes in all forms and some people tend to be better at different types than others. And the main differentiation that I'll make, that I want to capture is the difference between proactive and reactive change. Proactive change is the change that we are motivated to bring about ourselves. A new exercise routine, asking for a promotion at work, moving to a new city, deciding that you want to settle down and find a partner, or even like helping your friends and family push their lives in a very proactive way. And there are some people who really are great at that.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  There are some people who are such go-getters and they're like, I know what I want. I'm going to go get it. There's another type of change, which is reactive change. This is a change that happens to us. It is when a flight gets canceled. When your key partner and, you know, majority of your revenue suddenly ends the contract. Right? It's a flood in your basement that you don't have the funds to pay for. It's a flat tire on the side of the highway. All these things happen to us all the time as well. And there are some people out there who are great at that. My husband is one of those people. Something happens to us in an emergency situation, he's totally unflustered. But is he a planner? Is he the proactive change guy? Definitely not. He's a little bit like, well, you know, everything's changing anyway. I'll just see what happens to me.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  And what is a part of those proactive and reactive that I think is similar is that, you know, some people are going to be great at change. Some people are going to be better at handling disappointment. And some people are going to be great at navigating uncertainty. But of those three, very few of us are great at all three. Usually we're good at one, maybe two, if we're really, really lucky. And then you're pretty adept at the world. And they each represent something different, right? So change again is that feeling of like, can you, can you surf when the waves are rocky? Disappointment is self-related, right? Oftentimes we're feeling disappointed in ourselves because we didn't do something properly or the world didn't manifest in the way that we had set our mind to.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  And then finally, uncertainty is a little bit of like a latent feeling. It's sort of less acute than the first two, but it sort of sits in our, in the backs of our minds with this existential dread of, I don't know what tomorrow is going to bring. And so I felt like all three represented the full gamut and spectrum of what we experience in a visceral way for people.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I agree. And I think you encapsulated that perfectly. And I, I think it's important for folks to recognize what their tendencies are, where they're strong and where they struggle, so they can start to anticipate some of those patterns. And when it comes to this, I think a lot of times. People can, it's almost like the growth mindset versus fixed mindset, where they can say, okay, this is who I am. This is how I respond. And then they just stay stuck. They treat it like a trait that cannot be changed. But from your perspective, I'd like you to talk about the growth mindset as it applies to change, uncertainty and disappointment. How can people recognize those patterns that they might not like and would like to change?

• 11:04Speaker 00

  How do they go about that process?

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so much of this is mindset, right? And I think when we talk about living in a polarized world, you know, people think, oh, it's economically polarized and politically. All those things are true, but I think there's a real like psychological divide among us too. And it's the people who are either thriving amidst change or they're completely undone by it. And I think we kind of saw this in the pandemic, right? There's like two camps of people. It's the people who are, this is happening to me. Why is this happening to me? Victim mentality. And then there are people who might feel that way briefly, but are ultimately able to say, could this be happening for me? Right?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Maybe the universe is conspiring to bring me exactly where I need to be. And so the growth mindset is really, really a part of that because we can look at all these obstacles, these disappointments, these unknowns, and we can say, you know, I really didn't ask for this. This was not on my bingo card for this year. And I am unwilling to accept that this is happening or I'm resentful about it. And that's one mindset. And then there's another mindset where you can say, you know, I actually think that this is a learning experience. That's the growth mindset. And I think that it's best encapsulated by actually what Satya Nadella, who's the CEO of Microsoft, he took over in 2014. And he said, you know, we don't need to be know it alls here.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  We actually have to be learned it alls. I think that's actually the way that we are now. We don't have to know it all. We don't have to know what the future looks like. Right? We can let go of that feeling of needing to know and predict what's happening for us. We can live in that uncertainty. We don't have to be those know it alls, but we absolutely have to have that growth mindset. We have to position ourselves as willing, able and excited. To learn.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Yes, I agree. And I think one of the things we have to recognize is that a lot of times our emotions might be the last part of us on board with this process. And you might start saying things that you don't feel is true, but you know could be true. So I'll give an example. So during COVID, it was tough. We had a much smaller team. I was still just getting started with the American Negotiation Institute. But 100% of the revenue came from in-person trainings. And I was like, oh, my gosh, things are starting to go well. I can finally start to see events on every, every month. Man, February, I'm crushing it. I cannot wait to see what March has in store for me. I, it turns out I could have waited. I could have definitely waited.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  And so just in a heartbeat, everything was canceled. And all of that money that was on the calendar, it just disappeared. You know, force majeure, you're not going to have those contracts anymore when the event is going to, isn't going to happen. And so I said, well, I see what's in the bank account. I've got a family to feed. I've got employees and I don't want to lose anybody. How do I deal with this? And I remember one time, because my wife's a doctor, so she was working virtually. And my son Kai was, I, what, four, five at the time? So he was in five, six. So he was in kindergarten. So now I'm a kindergarten teacher while Whitney's seeing, seeing these kids. These are her patients virtually. And I'm sitting there. I remember one time I was calling my best friend, Paul.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  I was on the phone with him and I'm holding Kai and Whitney's seeing patients and Kai is just crying. And I was like, Paul, let me tell you something. I don't know how, but I guarantee this is going to be the best thing that ever happened to me. I don't know how. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I guarantee all of this. It is going to be the best thing that ever happened to me. And then by the end of the year, we, we doubled in revenue. We were able to expand the team. It was the best year on paper, but it wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have been able to do that if I didn't make that cognitive choice, even though my emotions weren't on board at the time.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Very interesting. So you were able to separate it, right? Like you could compartmentalize in a way and be like, okay, I'm feeling this way. My nervous system is activated. My emotions are not on board and I'm going to move forward anyway. I'm going to make these changes.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was it was hard, but you can do it. And I think the the background, and I know you have a background in psychology too, right? Um, that my my undergrad degree is in psychology. And so just knowing there's a difference between what's real and what I feel, though they don't necessarily need to be the same thing. And um, again, it did not feel good at the moment, but we're able to still move forward and push, uh, pull it off. So I just wanted to share the story because it's possible to do. But again, I think a lot of times we might feel as though we're on the wrong track because it doesn't feel good. And I think we can look at a lot of high performers and we say, oh, look how confident they are. It seems like they always know what's coming next and everything's fine. No, it's it's hard for all of us.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that's a big um, not not trusting that feeling, I think, is really important. Because a big part of of developing one's AQ, you know, your agility quotient, which is your ability to handle that change disappointment, uncertainty, is to make bets, right? And so you're betting on yourself by saying, okay, let me switch up what the product is that I'm actually offering. Let me make a bet and try to look for a different customer base here. I don't know how it's going to turn out. Um, and a bet is any action you take when you don't know what the outcome is going to be. Same thing as going to the roulette table, right? You you're saying red or black, um, you don't know what it's going to be, but you're deciding to to take that chance anyway.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Um, and oftentimes when I'm working with my clients and they're looking to take a bet, whatever it might be, you know, new product, making a hire, right? An executive hire who um, feels like there are really high stakes attached to it. Um, you know, moving into a new market, et cetera. And they say, well, I don't feel ready. And I always say, it does not matter. And in fact, if you wait until you feel ready, and you only do that when you feel that discomfort emotionally.

• 17:13Speaker 00

  Hmm, this is, this is interesting. So first, we will make a note. We're going to get back to agility quotient because I think that's brilliant and more important now than ever. And but but first, I want to take a brief detour. The, the, the level of relevance, you know, we will see. But I want to see, thinking about the idea of making bets. Because there, there, right now in the economy, there are really two industries that are holding everything up right now. It's, it's AI and it's gambling. And when I think about gambling, that's all about making bets. And the thing that makes gambling such a great business for the people who are owning those companies is because you're, you're selling a dick, an addictive technology. That's why it, it works so well.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  And so I'm wondering if we're taking that same idea of making bets in our life. Is there a way for us to gamify this to the point where we become addicted to the progress of making good bets on ourself?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yes, and I love this, Kwame. Because I actually do think that gambling is of course addictive. But I do think that it has grown in popularity because people feel so much uncertainty and lack of control over their own lives. And so there's something about taking it into your own hands and doing it in a way that is fun, has low stakes and is gamified, right? I personally know that when I'm in a moment where I feel a little bit overwhelmed about the unknowns in life, if my family, if we're watching a sports game or the Oscars, I'll say, let's go on a prediction market. Like, let's, let's bet like 10 bucks, five bucks on something.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  It's a kind of fun way to, to take something that feels uncomfortable that's happening to you and to actually be in control of it. And so, yeah, I actually think that's a great idea. If you take that a step further and you apply it to your own life. I know that something that I do is When I'm in the middle of any sort of project, for instance, my book launch, I hold myself to a challenge where for a month I will make a bet every day. And literally I have like, I print out a sheet of paper and I have a line where I put the date. And then I write, what was the, the shot on goal that I took? You know, what was that bet that I made? It doesn't have to be big. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's small. A bet could be, oh, maybe I'll reach out to an old coworker who I haven't spoken to in 10 years.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  And see if they'll come to my book event, right? That's kind of a small, low stakes thing to do. And sometimes it's a higher stakes thing where maybe it's like, I'm going to invest a little bit of my own capital into, you know, a book event or something like that. And so that's the thing is that it doesn't have to be a big bet. Anything that just moves us forward. And I think the way to think about it too, to gamify it is that you can put a number on how uncomfortable it makes you feel, right? So on a scale from one to 10, 10 being I'm having a full on panic attack. I do not like this. I'm in fight or flight. And then one being, yeah, okay, like I, um, maybe this wouldn't be the thing I want to do right now, but I'm going to do it anyway. It's fine. I'm not even going to think about it when it's done.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  And so we want to actually think about what that number is that feels like it's in that sweet spot. For anyone who's heard of the Yerkes Dodson curve, it's that sweet spot where it feels a little stressful and a little challenging, but not so much that we're tipped into fight or flight. But if we don't have enough positive productive stress, we get bored. And actually we're not able to operate at our most creative and our most interesting because we don't have that friction. So we need a little bit of friction in our lives. So for someone who's really not used to making bets, you probably want to keep the bets you're making to like a one to three on that scale of discomfort.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  But if you're someone who's already pretty practiced in it, you could keep that number at eight, nine, 10. I think about that rock climber, Alex Hunnell. I don't know if you guys have heard of him. Free solo guy. He's doing 10s every day, right? He's climbing buildings and he, and, but he's just used to it. His amygdala has been trained to that high intensity of discomfort. Not all of us are going to be like him and not even to say that's what we should strive to be. But yes, we are working towards being able to tolerate more and more discomfort. And we do that through bets.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  Amazing. I love this. It's so funny how this works out. Today is Liz Day. We have two Liz's on and this is the, this morning was the first time. This is so strange. The first time I ever tried like gamifying a, like a task that causes me dread, but calling it a bet.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Oh, what did you do?

• 21:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. So for me, the communicate, it sounds funny as a communication expert using air quotes here, but communication is tough for me when it comes to asynchronous communication. I just am swamped. So when it comes to text messages, you know, zero inbox is often the goal, but for me, it's like, I just want to keep it under a hundred. I get so many texts every day and then like 50 plus messages from, from folks on the team. And so what ends up happening is that I get stuck where I'm saying, there's so much I, I need to do, so many emails, so many Slack messages, so many text messages that I'm like, I can't even accomplish this task. So I, I'm just paralyzed, you know? And so what I said is, all right, let's make a bet. So you've got, you've got your text messages down to 80,

• 22:37Speaker 00

  which is great. Can you get it down to 60 in five minutes?

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Wow, that is so fun.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. And so I was like, okay, that was good. I got it to 64. That's pretty good. So I'll, so again, just doing that got me into action. But again, it's like one of those micro bets on yourself, but I think especially as it relates to the topic of this, of the podcast, when it comes to these conversations, can I, I bet that I could have this tough conversation without losing my mind and freaking out on the person, right? I bet I can have this conversation while staying curious and speaking less than the other person. One of my favorite ones is I like, I'm paying attention. I don't have like one of the smartwatches or oral rings or anything, but I just can pay attention to like breathing and pulse rate and everything. It's like, I bet I can have this really tough conversation while my breathing does not shift in any way

• 23:29Speaker 00

  and I can keep my heart rate down. I bet I can, you know? And by turning it into these games, it is almost like a helpful distractor from the difficulty of the situation and it leads you to take action.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  I totally agree with that. Something that is funny that my clients always laugh at me about is that I always use the analogy, I call it, because I, I coached primarily CEOs of, of early stage tech companies. It's like probably 95% of my clients fall into that bucket. And so they're dealing with pretty massive.

• 24:01Speaker 00

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• 25:51Speaker 01

  Uncertainty all the time and lots of changes. As you know, as someone who is an entrepreneur who started your own business, you never know what's coming down the pike. And so I always just say, like, in the video game, the CEO entrepreneur video game, you know, the level two, well, actually, probably like level five, revenues, what you thought was like a solid revenue stream, bottom falls out, right? That's just part of what happens. Okay, video game, you know, level number six, your co-founder quits on you and also tries to sue you, right? Getting sued is definitely one of the levels. Entrepreneur video game, right? Okay, next video game. Oh, oh, level. Oh, wait, you accidentally owe like a hundred K in taxes that you didn't realize?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Okay, normal, whatever. And then, you know, the, so I do say that to them. I'm like, okay, what level of the video game is this? Okay, how are you going to get through it? What are your superpowers? And so I love that you're gamifying because I think what it does to you, what you're saying is like, takes a task that has some dread to it and makes it interesting or intriguing. I think it also shortens the distance between like pontificating and pondering and then actually taking action. Cause we can really live in our heads for a long time. Oh, why is this hap- what am I doing? I don't know what to do. And I think when you can shorten that reaction time between I need to do it and I'm gonna do it. Even if that decision is imperfect, is better just to get a shot on the board.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Yep, I agree. I, I call it the, the productive synapse where it's like, okay, there's a space between action, like action and intention, right? And so it's like, all right, I intend to do this and it's safer, especially for high achievers. It's safer because especially in earlier in our lives, we got lots of credit for thinking. You can get a lot of credit for engaging in deep thought. But what I've recognized is a lot of times the, the actions that we need to take are just really more so uncomfortable than complicated. And we try to think about how we can make it less, less uncomfortable when that's really not even possible. You just kind of have to do it.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  And so when you get better at recognizing when you have, you've gotten to the point of diminishing returns when it comes to productive thought. And you can say, okay, well now I'm just thinking for the sake of thinking.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also like, we need to reframe discomfort because there is nothing wrong with discomfort. And in fact, it's a really, really good signal. If you're feeling discomfort about anything you're doing, probably means you're on the right path. Just in the same way, if you go to the gym and your muscles are sore, good for you. If you're going to the gym and you're not sore, probably not really pushing yourself in the right way. Right? And so I think reframing that where now when I'm feeling discomfort, when I'm like dreading a conversation or I'm, you know, dreading a task that I have to do, or even like, I don't want to respond to this email. Like I want to just close my inbox and not even like look at it or read it. Or I don't want to, you know, like.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Plan out the the budget for like a certain project that I'm doing. So I'm like, I'd rather not look at it. I actually think, OK, discomfort is signal that you are growing. That's it, you know? You're growing, you're changing, you're evolving, you are elevating yourself. And so I think that at the gym, when I'm like, oh, I don't want to finish this workout. I'm like, no, this is a good thing that I'm feeling like I don't want to finish this workout. This is a good signal that I'm out of breath. Right? Because otherwise, I would just be cruising and coasting. And so much of it was our privilege in this world is to always be growing and changing. Like, what a gift.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  I agree. I agree. And I think one of the best ways for us to grow and change is to improve our AQ. So tell us about it. Let's get into it.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we all know about IQ. And what we don't realize is IQ is actually over 130 years old. So we're dealing with like a old, old paradigm of what it means to be smart in the world. And it originally was for students. When France started mandating education for all the kids in France, they said, oh, we need a way to sort and rank and get these kids into the right classroom, regardless of age, because they're all coming from different places, different families. And then that became the beginnings of the Stanford-Benet IQ test, which is what we've been using in the US for the past 100 years.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  It's a version of what the government uses for civil service. It's a version of what the military has created. And all these groups needed a way to like, basically just sort, rank the cognitive horsepower people. And then, and so that kind of held for 100 years. And then, I don't know if anyone here remembers this or, you know, saw the the rise of it, but EQ, your emotional intelligence, that wasn't a thing until the 90s. So that term was first coined from a study in 1990, a research study at a university. And then Daniel Goldman. Author of emotional intelligence. He popularized it in 1995. And then suddenly, schools were using it.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Workplaces were using it. Now, social emotional learning is a cornerstone of almost every school, which is based on EQ. And so much of, you know, the employee training and manager training is about EQ, about that communication. And it was because knowledge work became a thing. Suddenly, it wasn't just about you doing your specific work. It was also, can you get the most out of the other people around you? Can you manage, right? Can you collaborate? Can you communicate? Can you work across cultures? That's what EQ is all about. And it wasn't really as necessary before the world became so global and knowledge work rose into the forefront of prominence. And so we have IQ, which came about during industrialization.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  EQ, emotional intelligence, which came about during globalization and knowledge work. And then now here we are again in this post pandemic world of massive uncertainty. So many geopolitical shifts, so much happening with the climate. And then AI, of course, the AI of it all, which brings massive uncertainty. You know, there are reports that the World Economic Forum's just released a report that says that, you know, there are going to be 170 jobs that are eliminated and 230, sorry, 170 million jobs that will be eliminated and 230 million that will be created. And while that's a net gain, that's massive disruption. Right? That's massive churn for people. And this is where AQ comes in.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  AQ is your capacity to handle that change, uncertainty and unknown. And truly, what I believe to be the intelligence that we need for the world today because of how much uncertainty there is.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  I agree, very well said. And I think really, we spend too much time trying to know the unknowable. And we say, okay, I will reach this sense of security, I will know what to do, and then I will take action when I have some sense of certainty of what is coming down the pike. But like you said, the modern era that we find ourselves in, especially 2020 and moving forward, uncertainty has been the norm. And so instead of trying to say, okay, let me try to know the unknowable in order to become well, which guarantees being unwell, let me then figure out how I can bet on myself, get my AQ up, and then start to be more nimble in the moment.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yes, and that's actually what it is. It's betting on yourself. And the analogy that I use is, you know, we used to we used to think it was a career ladder, where you're climbing that same vertical structure and you know, you become an expert in that one lane. And there's kind of a predictability, you know, one wrong at a time, one wrong at a time. Now, career and life, it's a spiral staircase. You're going somewhere, but you can only see one step ahead. And so you cannot bet everything on predicting the future, but you can become the best sort of general athlete yourself, so that no matter what that next step looks like,

• 34:13Speaker 01

  you feel confident in your prowess and your ability to handle it. And, you know, so much of that is like that emotional aspect that we're talking about. Can you regulate yourself? Can you learn how to take deep breaths so that you're controlling your heart rate? Can you learn how to put yourself in these situations that are deeply uncomfortable and still plow ahead anyway? And those are all the ways, just a few of the ways, that we become really, really strong general athletes, no matter what the world brings us. Because we're gonna have to learn new skills and then unlearn them. We're gonna have to acquire new knowledge and then let it go, because just the rate of information is changing too, like, what was true yesterday, I see this a lot with clients where,

• 34:55Speaker 01

  you know, six weeks ago, they said, you know, this is impossible with AI, and then six weeks later, that's not true anymore. Or even a company that really quickly scaled to 10 million in revenue, but then the next day Anthropic comes out with the same thing. Drops to zero, right? Like you even see companies that scale to 100 million in a year, which was like unheard of in SaaS companies before. But it happens, but then just as quickly as they are the, you know, belle of the ball, then it can just disappear because the technology is disrupting at such a fast rate.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  Right, it's tough. It's tough for everybody. But again, we now are developing the tools. And this book that you've written is one of those tools that helps us to navigate that uncertainty. And one of my favorite parts about your thought leadership is the archetypes that you've come up with. Can you tell us about that?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so everyone generally relates to one of four of these archetypes. And they're just ways of describing our relationship to change. And also ways of describing the skills that we have at our disposal to deal with it. And each of the archetypes has a different motivation, a different way of facing the world. So I'll start with kind of like the classic, classic AQ archetype is the firefighter. So imagine a firefighter rushing into a burning building. They are so calm under pressure. They are so good at problem solving in emergency situations. And so we all have firefighters in our lives who are like that. You know, think about the person that you call when there's an emergency

• 36:26Speaker 01

  or the person on your team who handles all the problems when everyone else is feeling overwhelmed. That's a firefighter. And the downside, though, is that because they're so good at dealing with emergency situations, they don't really plan in advance. They kind of think everything's changing anyway. So why even bother trying to put, you know, a stake into the ground? So they're sort of less intentional and less like reflective than some of the other archetypes, because they're so in the moment. And what I've noticed too is, you know, a lot of my clients who are entrepreneurs, they are natural firefighters, because you kind of have to be when you run your own company. There's lots of fires to fight.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  But they get too comfortable in chaos sometimes where they might even create a little bit of chaos themselves, because it's where they feel comfortable and impactful. So the opposite of the firefighter is the novelist. That's my archetype. And the novelist is the person who loves writing down that plot. Right? They want to be the author of their life and what unfolds. So the novelist is always making itineraries, agendas, doing research, thinking about the future and what it might be. And that's a great skill to have. They're so good at proactive change. When they want to do something like they say, I want to be promoted to a director level in the next two years. They have an exact roadmap for how they're going to get there.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  But in those situations that the firefighter thrives in, like a flight getting canceled or a client backing out, they get so overwhelmed and so flustered because they think, wait, this wasn't part of my plan. What's happening? I I mapped this all out. Why is this going on? And so those two are opposites and they're actually quite complementary with each other. And what I've found is that novelists and firefighters are often often really drawn to each other. You see them in close friendships. You see them, you know, in partnerships at work. I work with two founders who are a firefighter and novelist. And it's two guys and they jokingly refer to each other as Thelma and Louise. Because, you know, they they have that sort of yin yang about each other.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Then the third type, which is a very, you know, naturally high AQ type is called the astronaut. Lots of entrepreneurs are astronauts as well. So think about an astronaut, what they do. They are at the forefront of innovation. They're kind of floating in space away from everyone else. And so astronauts are really future forward. They can sort of see the vision for their lives before anyone else can. They're always, you know, thinking about what's next in their industry. They're following their passions into, you know, the shiny new thing. And they pivot, they change, they move really, really quickly. And the downside of that type is that

• 39:13Speaker 01

  People don't often understand what it is that they're doing because they're moving around so fast and they're not always the best at explaining it because they're sort of like, wait, I see this vision so clearly in my mind. Why don't you see it too? So if you have ever been asked by the people around you, hey, can you slow down? Or people have said, wait, I don't understand. Or wait, why are you making this change? Then you might be an astronaut. And ironically, for them to raise their AQ, they actually need to slow down a little bit. Get other people to rally around them. And when they can do that, they're highly inspirational.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  And then finally, last but not least, we have the neurosurgeon who is motivated by excellence. So think about how a neurosurgeon operates. They are dealing with such high detail, right? When you operate on the brain, you have a millimeter, three millimeter wide canvas that makes a difference between someone being paralyzed and someone living. So the neurosurgeon is always holding themselves to an extreme level of perfection and excellence. And, you know, it can be slower for them to move forward because they want to make sure it's perfect. They want to make sure that they know everything about the situation. And so you might think of them as a lower AQ type, but when they do decide to move forward,

• 40:30Speaker 01

  they are so gritty and resilient, nothing will ever stop them until they have achieved their goal. And a joke that I always talk about is like, I have a friend who is a neurosurgeon and he was single, like well past when everyone else was single. And then when he finally decided that he had like fallen in love with someone, she wasn't that interested in him, but he was unrelenting until she was like, okay, I guess I love you too. I'll marry you. Now they have three kids together and they're very happy. But it took him a long time to get to that point to say like, okay, I'm ready to settle down. I have another friend who's a neurosurgeon and he was ready to buy an apartment, you know, to buy a place in New York City, but he looked for 10 years.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  Consistently before he found the right place. So it's that kind of timeline that we're operating on with a neurosurgeon. So to be higher AQ, we need to push them out of their comfort zone so that they can actually operate and move a little faster than what they normally would.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  So good. Oh, this is great. And I know you've already answered this to a certain extent with each of the archetypes, but I want to go deeper and talk about if we're in a conversation and we identify that we're talking to a firefighter, an astronaut, a neurosurgeon, or a novelist. What persuasive adjustments do we need to utilize in order to demonstrate our conversational agility to make sure that we are persuading in a way that would actually resonate with them?

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Let's start with the firefighter.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  So we gotta know what the firefighter is motivated by. What they care about more than anything is impact. So they want everything they do to make a difference. You will not find a firefighter working in, you know, some big company where they're kind of like pushing around papers. And so to appeal to them, you have to, and to persuade them, you have to show them that you're trying to put them in a position where they can create value too. Right? And that like what they are doing matters and is impactful. And so if you're persuading them, you might say something like, you know, I think that's some way that we can can get this done really quickly and have everyone be really satisfied

• 42:47Speaker 01

  is like X, Y, and Z. Because they're actually just like trying to move everything to get it done and execute as fast as possible. They're like, okay, I'm not here to sit around. I'm not here to pontificate. I want to get things done and I want to make a difference. And so you appeal to that. You're like, hey, I think we can wrap this up. I think we can solve the solution. And they also see themselves as really creative problem solvers. So you might even say to them, you know, what's an out of the box way that you think that we can all get what we want here? And giving them that challenge, they will always rise to the occasion.

• 43:19Speaker 00

  Oh, that's fascinating. And this one word that you didn't say, but I think kind of, tell me if this is linked in any way. Would creating urgency be something that motivates somebody who's a firefighter too?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  100%. You nailed it. Yes. They love urgency. They love urgency. And in fact, that's actually what is great about them. And it's also like a little bit hard where that's why they don't do that planning in advance because there's no urgency around it. So if you want to get them to do something, even if it's, you know, let's call it high priority, but like low urgency, you have to manufacture some urgency around it to even get them to register that it's something that they need to prioritize on their plate.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Yep, yep, that makes a lot of sense. So urgency and importance. And I think is there, when it comes to the firefighter, and maybe this is outside of what the archetype encapsulates, but is there a desire to be seen in a certain way, like a higher desire of status relative to other archetypes? Or is it just that they need, they want to know that there's an impact, but they don't necessarily need to have much outward credit?

• 44:35Speaker 01

  They do not need a lot of outward credit at all, but to them, they do need to see that their work is of value. So they may not need that external recognition, but they do need to be able to make an impact. And sometimes, you know, that does come from external validation, but other times it just comes from like seeing something happen. Like, you know, you might be a firefighter who's motivated by money, right? Commerce. And so you might feel good when you see that you're like hitting those goals for your company, like those revenue goals. Or you might be someone who's like motivated by interpersonal relationships in your network.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  And so maybe that impact comes from like your team saying to you, hey, you really make a difference in my life. So I think it varies, but really it's about like seeing that there is a. Purpose and something that firefighters actually say a lot is it feels good when no one else can do it except for them, you know, where they're like, oh, I was the only person who could have handled that situation or, you know, anyone else in that situation would have been, um, you know, flustered and, and, and overwhelmed, but I was totally fine in it. So maybe it's not status, but they definitely see themselves as, um, being able to wrangle chaos in a way that, um, is unique and special.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's almost like personal prestige. They like to know that they have a special degree of competence that somebody else in the same situation would not have been able to handle the pressure or figure out the puzzle, but they could. And it sounds like the, the, the person who keeps coming to mind for this fictional character is Olivia Pope from Scandal.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  This, this is making a lot of sense. This is super helpful. Okay. Let's talk about the novelist. So now tell us how we would persuade you, Liz, since you are a novelist.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Well, novelists need to feel like it was their idea.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  And that it was their doing. Um, and that it maps into like their greater plan of what they care about. And so I think if you're trying to persuade a novelist, you have to really understand like what their vision and their end goal is because it has to work within that paradigm. So you might say to them like, what's important to you here? Why does this matter? Um, walk me through what the best case scenario for you would be. Um, and then in a way you're then kind of parroting back to them what it is that, um, you are co-creating with them and you can expand on that, right? You can like, you don't have to do their plan like 100% verbatim. Um, but there is this element of like, okay, tell me what it is that you want. Yes. And I'm going to help you get there. Plus, have

• 47:17Speaker 01

  you thought about X, Y, and Z? But they need to feel like they're heard, um, and really understood, um, before they're willing to, um, compromise or deviate.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, that I mean, that last part makes a lot of sense because especially if they are writing the novel for their life or the situation that you need to demonstrate that you have at least read a few pages of the book to see whether or not your your plan fits in. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, um, good. And now the astronaut.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so the astronaut is really motivated by passion and excitement. And it's it's tied to their interest areas, right? And it's also tied to like what's new and what's interesting. And so the way to sort of like get them and to be persuasive with them is to like make it exciting or a new experience, right? It's almost like you're like pushing them. You're helping them learn about something new that feels fun, that feels cool, that feels exciting, and that feels unique and special in some way like they like to feel like they're not doing it the way that everyone else is. They're doing it a way that's like in their

• 48:28Speaker 01

  signature style. And so similar to the novelist where it's about understanding what they want and what their plan is, the difference is you're trying to understand like what the astronauts like specific interest areas are and what their far flung vision for the future is. Astronauts don't really have a plan. They're not super diligent in planning step by step, but they do always have like kind of a vision for the future. One of my clients who is a quintessential astronaut, she's running a company that is trying to grow meat, like real meat, but through stem cells so that you don't have to harm any animals. The science is like not quite there yet, but she's been working in this arena for almost 10 years, and she really sees the future very clearly. She's

• 49:13Speaker 01

  super motivated by sustainability and by saving the environment. And so to sort of persuade her, you kind of have to like almost operate on like a farther time horizon to be like, okay, I see like the novel is a little bit more like, okay, day to day what their plan is, but the astronaut is like five, 10 years down the road. So you need to align with like their far flung vision and get them excited about why what you're doing is going to help them achieve that.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  That's such an important distinction. That's really, really, really helpful. And lastly, the neurosurgeon, I feel like this one might be tricky.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Well, the neurosurgeon is gonna be pretty critical if you are not, if you're not buttoned up and you don't have all your ducks in a row. If they sniff any sense that you are unprepared, not knowledgeable, and have not come to the table doing all your research, then they're not gonna respect you. So you need to heavily research, put all your ducks in a row and not have any disorganization when you're coming to the table with them, because they're gonna be the same way. And because they value excellence, when they see excellence in you, they are gonna respect you. They're gonna be like, oh, this is someone who I wanna do business with. This is someone who I trust is actually going to take this as seriously as I am.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  And then from there, you know, it actually is pretty straightforward. They are pretty, you know, rational to deal with. But it's, it's not really about emotions, it's so much more about facts. And they're not gonna wanna take any shortcuts. So any, you know, compromise that you make together, you've gotta make sure that you're thinking through all of it with them. So it might take longer than you're used to, because they're gonna wanna work on, you know, what the plan is. But then contingency plans, and then what if this happens, what if that happens? And it's a beautiful blessing, because, you know, how valuable to have someone who thinks through everything that could happen. But for some of the other archetypes, they might get a little frustrated and say like, is this really necessary?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Like, what are the actual chances that this is gonna happen? Why are we actually doing this, you know? And so you've gotta respect the neurosurgeons, like, they're, you have to respect the neurosurgeons endeavor towards excellence in order to, you know, positively persuade them.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Hmm, this is great. That makes a lot of sense, because it's almost like a level of respect. Because we know that the neurosurgeon has done a ton of research. They have all of their ducks in a row. And if you want to persuade them to do anything other than what they've already planned for, you need to demonstrate that you've at least given as much thought on, on the topic that, compared to them, right? And so I think that's gonna be a big part of it. And as you were describing that I was thinking about how important it must be for you to understand your own archetype as well. Because there would be an assumption that everybody thinks the same way that you do, and then you might be unpersuasive because of that very reason.

• 52:13Speaker 00

  So for instance, a firefighter might try to persuade a neurosurgeon as if the neurosurgeon were a firefighter and vice versa. And then there maybe there was a path to productive dialogue and a path to persuasion. But they just missed because they were focusing on how they would want to be persuaded under the circumstances. And as a result, it just misses the mark.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  So that example you gave Kwame is perfect because you can imagine how the firefighter might say, this is so urgent, we need to do this right now. And that is like kryptonite to the neurosurgeon who does not want to be rushed, right? It will make them say, wait, why are you trying to rush me? Like you haven't even thought about X, Y, and Z. So it creates a rift between them as while the firefighter was just trying to, you know, speak that love language. I mean, that's kind of the analogy. I think it's like, you know, we all have, we all know the concept of, you know, love languages in our relationships. It's similar with the archetypes, like the, um, you know, that what what feels like, uh, urgency is exciting and comfortable. It's the love language of the firefighter, but um, for the neurosurgeon, that's actually the opposite.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  They want that detail. They want that steadiness. They want that, you know, um, not to be rushed. They don't, they hate urgency.

• 53:24Speaker 00

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• 55:35Speaker 00

  how much of it is context-dependent? So can somebody be a firefighter in their career, but then more of a neurosurgeon at home, or vice versa?

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yes, very, very much so. That's exactly right. And oftentimes, we are really different in the context and communities that we operate in. And people sometimes feel a different way with their parents and their siblings, because they're sort of brought back into even that environment. Because let's say your parents were both firefighters. You might become more of a firefighter when you're around them, because that's the way you grew up. But then, as an adult, maybe your job encourages you to be more of an astronaut, right? Because you're an entrepreneur, because you're very future-oriented. But then at home, that doesn't really work, because you've got to make a plan. You have kids, you have a schedule. So I think that we all have default archetypes

• 56:31Speaker 01

  that we feel most comfortable in. But to be truly high AQ, you should actually be able to access all four of the archetypes. Maybe you're not perfect. But to be able to put on your glasses, your firefighter glasses or your neurosurgeon glasses and see through that lens and even pull on some of those talents when you need them is super, super important. Like having an appreciation for all four and some access to those abilities is really important.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Brilliant. No, it makes a lot of sense. And again, that goes back to the concept of agility, right? Being able to know what skills you need at what time, even if it's uncomfortable. And this is a perfect time to bring in Simone. Simone, what you got for us?

• 57:17Speaker 02

  My question is about the HR teams. So for an HR, maybe an HR specialist, this is helpful. Because sometimes the way I see they hire people is, okay, do you have the hard skills? Yes. Okay, now do we connect to each other? Yes. Okay, then that's, that's, that's good. So let's hire you. And sometimes we need to hire people that we not necessarily feel connected to.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  So for instance, let's talk about my relationship, my, my relationship with Kwame. Last week or maybe two weeks ago, we had a LinkedIn live session. And there was a problem of connection. There was a chaos, but I was so afraid. And Kwame was like, hmm, let me check. Let me see, something weird is going on here. So he was analyzing, taking his time. And I was like, no.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  But so like when I, I needed him. But at the same time, I feel like, oh my God, he's not worried about this. But in his brain, he's like, okay, we need to calm down so that we can solve it. So if I am looking for someone who connects with me in that emotion, maybe I hired the wrong person.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  So for HR, how can this model of AQ and different archetypes can be used to hire new talents? How do you see it?

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Kwame, are you a firefighter?

• 58:52Speaker 00

  I am.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  I am a firefighter and a novelist when I have time to breathe. I prefer to be a novelist. I've learned to be a firefighter.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Simone, do you know or you have a guess for what your archetype might be?

• 59:08Speaker 02

  No, I don't know. I think I am a neurosurgeon, but I'm not really sure about that.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  That's such a classic neurosurgeon thing to say where Simone's like, I need more information before I can make a decision.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  But yes, like what you're thinking about is so accurate is that when HR teams are hiring, they actually do want to hire for a full slate of the archetypes and to value what they all bring to the table. You know, not just valuing your own perspective, but what they bring to the table. And I think on top of that, too, so much of hiring used to be about looking for the perfect resume. I actually started my career as a recruiter when I was starting working in tech in 2008. I took an entry level job as a recruiter and I kind of worked my way up and eventually became a venture capital executive.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  But I have such a base in hiring and I love hiring, which is kind of why I got into personality assessments and psychology. Is because you've got to figure out who this person is in front of you in like an hour. You have to decide whether or not you're going to hire them.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  But another thing is that, you know, I was always taught to look for the perfect on paper resume. Where did they work? Where did they go to school? And in this world of AQ, we shouldn't be looking for that anymore. Let me just take that again. In this world of AQ, we shouldn't be looking for that anymore. When people make interesting detours or unexpected pivots, those are indicators that this is a high AQ person sitting in front of you. When they are self-taught or they have, you know, managed to.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Be scrappy and put something together outside of the, you know, orthodox way of doing it. Those are all really good signals. And so what I'd say is that we need to push ourselves as hiring managers for any job to, one, look beyond our archetypes, as Simone was talking about, and two, also look beyond that sort of prototypical, perfect on paper resume and actually give people credit when they veered off the beaten path, because those are the people we want in our corner when things change.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  Oh, that's such a good point, and that's such a paradigm shift, too. But again, we are living in shifting times. Everything's different, so that makes a lot of sense. Have you have you seen much traction with with this concept when it comes to that realm, like HR hiring, that type of stuff?

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. I'm actually going to be doing a workshop with the full talent team of one of the leading AI companies, and we're we're basically figuring out how we can weave that into the interview process. And yes, it's like, super, super important. I mean, I think I've been doing also training with with all sorts of different companies on this, like from Google to pharmaceutical companies. And training is just a subset of that, because obviously, you want to train people to become high AQ, but the fastest way to have a workforce that is high AQ is to hire for that in the beginning. So we're talking about how to spot

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  those attributes in people that you hire, but then also to help people articulate that and like, know what good looks like as they're growing and evolving in their careers.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  Amazing. Liz, I really like this, and I it's so, what I love about this is that it's so actionable, too. So it's very thought provoking. You you get to go through this introspective process to see where you're strong, where you can double down, and where you might be weak, and where you can get stronger, and then how you could actually apply this. And then I appreciate you taking the time to walk us through how we can identify the different archetypes in other people, and then persuade according to that archetype. So I think this this episode has done a lot of good when it comes to helping people to create bespoke, persuasive and communication strategies. So I appreciate that. And before you go, I want to make sure that I give you time to let folks know again about the book and the work that you do and how they can connect.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you can take the quiz and find out what your archetype is at AQquiz.com. The book is called AQ. You can get it anywhere that people sell books. And on social, then I'm at Liz Tran writes if you want to connect on Instagram.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  Amazing. Liz, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, Kwame. Thank you, Simone. Such a great conversation.

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  Thank you. No, this was great. It's so cool. Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever, and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Aron's Mele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work. With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the U.S. Surgeon General to NFL and NBA stars.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

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