Pod Insights Negotiate Anything Stop Seeking Validation: The Secret to Authentic Confidence and Executive Presence About this episode You think you’re being authentic. You’re not.
In this powerful conversation, media expert, keynote speaker, and author Jeanne Sparrow breaks down the real meaning of authenticity — and it’s not what you think. Most people confuse authenticity with oversharing. Others stay silent, mistaking fear for integrity. Jeanne explains why true authenticity isn’t about saying everything — it’s about knowing who you are, what you bring to the table, and how to use that power with intention.
You’ll learn:
Why oversharing kills trust (and isn’t real connection)
How to tell the difference between fear and truth
How to adapt without losing yourself
Why your presence speaks louder than your words — and how to own it
Whether you're leading a team, having a tough conversation, or just trying to show up more powerfully — this episode will change how you think about being “yourself.”
Connect with Jeanne
jeannesparrow.com
Buy now The Book - FEARLESS AUTHENTICITY - by Jeanne Sparrow
Contact ANI
Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company
Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn
negotiateanything.com
Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!
Transcript 10,130 words · 3 speakers
0:01 Speaker 00 Hey, I'm Kwame Christian and you are about to step into the world of Negotiate Anything, the number one negotiation podcast in the world where we teach you how to make difficult conversations easier while getting more of what you want in the process. Each episode is packed with practical tips and strategies from the experts. We delve into negotiation, conflict resolution, and leadership skills that are crucial in both business and in life. Whether you're closing a deal, managing a team, or navigating personal relationships, Negotiate Anything provides you with the tools you need to succeed. Our conversations are real, relatable, and most importantly, rooted in practicality. So if you're ready to transform your conversations and elevate your negotiation skills, join
0:46 Speaker 00 me on Negotiate Anything. Subscribe and listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you love to listen. Let's make every conversation a winning negotiation.
0:58 Speaker 00 If you listen to this show, you're probably one of two people. You're someone who's trying to improve their communication skills and learn how to resolve conflict, or you're a dealmaker who's trying to learn how to get an edge in their next negotiation so you can either make more or save more. The American Negotiation Institute is built for both. We have keynotes for conferences, workshops for teams, and courses for everyone because the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. Jean, thanks for joining us today.
1:27 Speaker 01 Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. I'm grateful to be on and learn some negotiation tips.
1:33 Speaker 00 Yes, and it is an honor to have you, my friend, and we are excited to learn about what authenticity really means. But before we get to that, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?
1:44 Speaker 01 Yes, so I am a new author. This is my first book, so I'm author, speaker, and trainer, and former media personality. Well, I guess I still am a media personality in some ways, but I use the work that, the things that I learned, the secrets that I think we have in the broadcast industry, to share with people about best practices for not only finding success, but also being better leaders, better communicators, better connectors.
2:15 Speaker 00 Yes. Oh, this is great. And Gene, once a media personality, always a media personality. And you're on my media, bringing your personality. So you still got it. And I think something that would be really helpful to set the stage for the listeners even more is letting them know what that background in media is, because you bring a really unique perspective to the communication space. And I think just outlining that can help the folks understand where you're coming from, and then how they could strategically implement the stuff that you talk about in their lives, too.
2:46 Speaker 01 So my background is, I started in radio when I was 17 years old. Kind of on a lark, I'd been in speech and debate, and I have been in radio and television ever since. Moved from radio to the TV. At one point in time, was doing both TV and then now back to radio. And I've been in music radio, talk radio. I've done entertainment reporting. I've been an anchor on the news. I've hosted talk shows, entertainment shows. So I have talked to a wealth of celebrities and a smattering of politicians
3:26 Speaker 01 and everyday folks who just want to tell their stories. My whole work has been about amplifying other people's stories, amplifying their impact, because when you have a 50,000 watt megaphone, you're supposed to use it for something, something good, hopefully. And so my goal has always been, because I've always been fascinated by other people's stories and telling them. I come from a family of storytellers on both sides. My dad, I wish I could be as good of a storyteller as my dad was. I'm getting close as I get more grays in my hair, but, but one day, one day I will be close to what he was able to do. But all of my family, like literally holidays, were competitions for telling stories.
4:11 Speaker 01 And I feel like that's where the crux of our connection is, and I find so many people are missing that. And that's really the thing that I want to share with people, is to give them back their power. Power to amplify their own stories, to wake up one day and feel confident in A, not only knowing what you're worth, but being able to tell that to somebody else, to share it with them and maybe help them. And that ends up moving forward and making our world a better place.
4:46 Speaker 00 Woo, boy, that that is so much cooler than a media personality. There's so much in there. This is great. And and think about this, you know, we are sixteen hundred episodes deep here on negotiate anything. And we've never had anybody with your unique background and expertise. So when it comes to being able to communicate, tell stories, but also leverage those stories in a way that is that that's authentic and geared toward connection and to drive understanding. This is powerful. So we could not have anybody better to tell this story. And so Jean, oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. And now I want you to speak directly to the person who is listening to this podcast.
5:26 Speaker 00 And I want you to tell them what changes in their life if they are able to put what we are about to talk about today into action in their lives.
5:37 Speaker 01 After you listen to this and you go to bed tonight, tomorrow morning, when you wake up, if you've done what we talk about, you will have a sense of knowing exactly where you belong, what lane you are in, and you will be able to own it, especially when you are trying to level up, transition, or do something different, whether that is get a new job, get a promotion, close that sale,
6:08 Speaker 01 convince your children what to eat for dinner tonight, whatever it is your goal is. When you know where you stand, it is so much easier to connect with other people and move the needle and move forward together. And that's what I hope you will do tomorrow morning if you do the work we talk about today.
6:26 Speaker 00 Oh, this is incredible, Jean, and the timing is perfect. I just cooked dinner. It's salmon and I put my heart and soul into this. And if these boys reject me again, I would be a broken man.
6:37 Speaker 01 This is real. That's the reason why I bring up that example, because every parent, every auntie who's ever had to cook for her nephews and nieces, which would be me, listen, the negotiation tactics that have to happen around dinnertime are crucial.
6:54 Speaker 00 It's crucial. It absolutely is. And now let's, let's get into the, the book. But first, one of the key words in the book, we have fearless authenticity. And we were, we were vibing before the episode started and you helped me to recognize that one of the biggest challenges people have with authenticity is that they do not understand what it really means. So can you break down what authenticity is? But even more importantly, what are the common misunderstandings that hold people back? When it comes to understanding authenticity?
7:26 Speaker 01 The biggest misunderstanding that people have about authenticity is that they believe it's full disclosure and that's it. To me, that is an unexamined authenticity. It's also probably not accurate. I think people, especially the people who are against authenticity in the workplace. I don't want to know all their business. That's not what it is. Authenticity, true, leverageable authenticity is about understanding who you are, what you've experienced, and then turning it into an action, applying it to whatever it is that is in front of you, whatever tasks it is.
8:11 Speaker 01 The most successful people are the people who make meaning of the world, right? The people who put things into context. The most valuable people in any organizations are the ones who can either transform processes, take data and use it and apply it. What do you think that interpretation is? It is an application of what you know, what you've experienced and put it into action for the people that you serve, whether that is you as a middle manager, doing that for the people who report to you and are actually doing these processes, or to the people above you who, you know, in the org chart,
8:52 Speaker 01 who actually need to understand the higher level thinking that goes behind what they're doing. Because a lot of times there's a disconnect in the org chart, right? That's what I find with my clients. There's a disconnect. And almost every time somebody identifies what a problem is, they ask me to do one thing, like maybe it's, you know, improving how they connect with their external stakeholders of some sort. Guaranteed, when I get in there, there's something happening internally.
9:20 Speaker 01 Because if things are messy inside, what's going out is not going to go out in the most optimal way possible. But really, what it comes down to is if you understand who you are, how you affect other people and how you connect with them, then you can apply who you are to whatever the problem is and be a solution. Nobody wants to be a vitamin. Everybody wants to be a painkiller because painkillers are more valuable.
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10:35 Speaker 00 There is so much to explore in this. So what I love about this is that we've really operationalized authenticity. It's not this nebulous concept that is kind of geared more like by feelings. This is vitally important, not just to the individual, so they can express themselves in a true and authentic type of way. But also it helps the company and the organizations. Because you said it's about understanding who you are, the effect you have on others, and then how you can serve others. And I think, and we're about to get a little bit spicy now, but my family's from the Caribbean, we can handle it. I love it. So when it comes to this, when it comes to the people who are against authenticity, and they say, well, I don't want to know everybody's business,
11:19 Speaker 00 or somebody who says, I don't feel comfortable being authentic. I don't want to share all my business. I think what we're recognizing is that people don't understand the distinction between authenticity and narcissistic woman.
11:30 Speaker 00 Vulnerability. And with narcissistic vulnerability, this is just us sharing everything, forcing everybody to center on us. And then, you know, they are bad if they reject who we are in that awkward word vomity type of situation. Where you're just kind of like.
11:48 Speaker 01 Phrase. Oh, I love that phrase because that is exactly what oversharing is. I refer to what you're talking about as a range of authenticity, right? Um, authentic expression, however you want to call it, but it exists in a range. And I use this analogy because I think it's one most people can relate to, especially you being Caribbean. There are very distinct rules in how we speak to our elders. I'm from Louisiana, so I think there's an adjacency there. There is a very different way you speak to your siblings, your cousins, your friends. And a very distinct way that you speak to your elders. And and by elders, I don't just mean the elders in your family. I mean, the elders in your community, in your church, what have you.
12:29 Speaker 01 But that same person, you wouldn't, you wouldn't say that your grandmother didn't know you, would you? She knows who you are, but you don't speak to her the same way you speak to your boys. And nor should you. And so that's what I mean when people say, and like, because I get into these conversations about code switching. Quite a bit in in our community. And I even had somebody white uh try to call me on it. And I was like, and he was just like, that's not you. And I was like, boo day all me. That's the thing you don't understand. They're all me. And I, and when I said to him, I said, do you have a grandmother who's still alive? And he was like, yes, I said, that's A, a blessing. God bless. I said, but do you talk to her the same way you talk to your to your mates when you're at the bar? He was like, absolutely not.
13:14 Speaker 01 And so are you, are you a different person when you're with your grandmother? Not necessarily you have a different level of respect for her. Right? Then, and, and that's not to say you disrespect your boys or your mates, your friends, whatever. You're not disrespecting them. You're speaking to them in the way that you guys communicate. And that's what I mean by that range of expression when it comes to authenticity. We all have all these different facets to ourselves. Use them, use them all, but use them all appropriately. Apply the levers where they, they need to be, you know, apply pressure when it's appropriate. Pull back when it's appropriate. Speak however it is that
13:57 Speaker 01 makes sense for you at the time that it makes sense for you.
14:03 Speaker 00 Yes. This is, I, I think this is so empowering too, because we've heard so many times, hey, I am who I am. You are who you are. Act the same way all the time. And it becomes almost kind of like this, uh, almost it's said with religious style zealotry where it's like an inappropriate compromise at all times if you ever change who you are. And then it conflicts because a lot of times when you make these reads, you say, I don't talk to this person the same way I talk to this person. Am I, am I wrong for that? And what you've done is you've helped many people with their existential identity crises here because you've given them the right to both be themselves and also be effective communicators. Because again, you are still, as you're authentically interacting with people, you're focusing on
14:48 Speaker 00 understanding who you are, understanding how that affects other people, and then understanding how you drive the conversation toward the directed outcome. And you can still find different versions of yourself that are equally authentic in different situations. And now, let's, let's make this really clear too, Jean. So when we're talking about this, how do we know the difference between authentic adaptation, based on who's in front of us, also known as code switching, and something that goes into inauthenticity, where we are actually sacrificing who we are in the moment in an inappropriate type of way?
15:26 Speaker 01 You have to set your own boundaries as to what that is, right? Because I think it really comes down to something very simple that we are very out of touch with. We don't listen to our gut. If you are doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable, and I'm not talking about, and there's a difference between discomfort because of growth and discomfort because you know it's wrong. But there is a feeling in the pit of your stomach that tells you when you are doing something that is not right for you. Listen to it. That is not the one to push through. There is a very big difference when you are working out and, and pushing yourself.
16:10 Speaker 01 Then, and there's a point where you're like, if I keep doing this, I'm going to hurt myself. You know what that is. Sometimes we push a little too far. And sometimes you do have to play with that boundary to see where it is, especially when you're younger, because you don't know yourself as well. One of the things, though, that I will say about playing in that range of authenticity, think of it more as an attention to the other person, a service to the other person, right? We've all been in arguments where people will sometimes belittle us, make us feel like we don't understand something. That shuts down the connection between us.
16:52 Speaker 01 We've also been in, in situations where people are excessively obsequious, where they're just going overboard and you know that they're trying to get something out of you as opposed to just being real about what it is, right? You don't have to go to those extremes to understand where your range is, but maybe you have to flirt with the edges of that to understand what it means. Now, ask yourself a few questions. Is what I'm doing true to me? Is it respectful of me, my boundaries, my goals in this moment? And is it of service to the other person and the reason why they're here? And is it respectful of our connection? Will we be able to talk to each other tomorrow?
17:37 Speaker 01 After what happens and transpires in this conversation today? And I also think this is a great way to look at growth. Right? If we don't see ourselves as operating in a range and understanding where we need to get better, where we fall short, and that is a very honest assessment of who we are, then we don't grow. If you say, this is who I am and this is how I show up, that means you're choosing to stay back there always. Because while you have decided this is where I am, I'm planting my roots in the ground. Guess what? Everybody else is moving forward without you.
18:12 Speaker 00 Right? Yes.
18:14 Speaker 01 The world doesn't stop. Change doesn't stop. Just because you decided this is who I am, and I think that's a cop out. I think it's lazy. And I'm, and I'm sorry, I try not to be judgmental, but that is one of the things I am very judgmental about. Like, you know what? I get it. It's hard. Change is hard, but you know what? Change is, is a thing that we as human beings need to accept. And yes, we will always struggle with it because we hate change. We like, oh, we got good, let's stay there. Guess what? If you stay there, it's not gonna stay good.
18:45 Speaker 00 Mm hmm. Now, now let me go ahead and try to, I think I'm picking up what you're putting down. Because I think underneath all of this great advice, there's a special message to people who are the other, whatever other means in this context. Right? And that could be anybody, depending on the circumstance. And a lot of times what we do is we put ourselves in a victim position where we blame other people for the outcomes that we have, when in fact, we could have made some strategic and authentic adjustments in order to get that outcome. But it's almost safer for us to not take that risk and instead blame other people for the, the failures that we have started to log. Because the thing is, again, when you can just say, what is my ultimate goal? Who am I serving? What am I trying to do?
19:29 Speaker 00 And a lot of times the goals that we have are Bigger than us, even if it comes to the the business development goals that we have, or we want to try to improve our career. A lot of times, especially if you are in a marginalized group, you're doing that for the betterment of other people. And if you're saying to yourself, hey, listen, I'm not going to make any adjustments, even though it could help me and therefore the other people that I serve, then you're being selfish and you're not willing to put yourself out there. Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me, and as a negotiator, that's a real problem, because my job is to listen, not type or write notes.
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21:55 Speaker 01 I couldn't have said it better myself, sir. Could not have said it better. I feel like.
22:02 Speaker 01 It's interesting.
22:06 Speaker 01 One thing I've learned in this work, no matter who I talk to, no matter how they identify, no matter what groups they seem to belong to, just from the outside looking in. Every single person that I have run into has felt like other at some point in time in their lives. Yes. It is a very human experience. And I would say probably one of the few universal human experiences to feel like you do not belong. To feel like you are not in the right place. Even though some of us have, and all of us have different levers of privilege, right? Depending on how we grew up, no matter who we are, no matter how we identify.
22:50 Speaker 01 There are certain things that we might have, like, you know, like good health. Like literally, health is a privilege. I don't know that people realize that sometimes. Having a home is a privilege. And there are different levels of that. But what I have experienced in, in taking this work into, especially into corporations that are trying to change, right? Either implementing a change process that they've already had or having been forced to change because of the environments that they are in. Or the conditions of work. That every single person that I end up talking to at some point in time in their life, their career, in their existence, has felt like
23:33 Speaker 01 they weren't part of the group. And
23:40 Speaker 01 that impacts how we relate to each other. Because I think when you can tap into
23:47 Speaker 01 where you belong. Right? And, and, and what you can do and what your value is. Then you, you have a sense, a foundation from which to operate. And it also gives you empathy for how somebody else who might not belong or might not feel they belong. How, how they are experiencing their world. And I think that empathy and that understanding helps us to connect because people feel it.
24:16 Speaker 01 I, one of the things I think that surprises people a lot with where I start with any communication effort when I'm talking, whether it's leadership, external comms, internal comms, whatever it is, I always start with the person I'm talking to. You always start with you. Even though, even though the person you're talking to is the most important in this particular instance, you have to know you first before you do anything, before you, you know, I call it, I call it live it, tell it, sell it. Live it is about you, how you live and how you move and how you're affecting other people. When you know that, then you can proceed to tell a story because the stories are what connect us. And tell it, sell it is to the person you're talking
25:01 Speaker 01 to because we're always selling something. And that part people struggle with. I don't think anybody's ever surprised that I say that, but they fight me on it. Well, I'm not selling this and that. I'm not a salesperson or whatever, because I think people automatically go to a negative connotation of sales, which at the end of the day, is you trying to separate yourself from the part that gives you the ick about asking for something, right? About sharing yourself, of the fear of failure that comes with that, that scarcity mindset that you brought up earlier. The reality is from dinner, you know, where we're gonna go to dinner, what our kids are gonna eat for dinner, to what job we're gonna take is, is about selling. It is about selling, whether it's
25:46 Speaker 01 an idea, whether it's a product, a widget, a service, we're always be selling is, is for real because we always are. We just don't want to admit it.
25:58 Speaker 00 Right.
25:59 Speaker 01 But when we start with who we are first, then you can, because you can't control how people take what you say. You can't. You only can control yourself and how you tell the story.
26:14 Speaker 01 And get real clear about how you you affect other people because most people don't even know what their tails are, right? Poker players hide all of their expressions because they don't want people to see their tails in other good poker players. No matter how much you put that cap down, no matter how many dark glasses, there's something you do. It's gonna be a twitch, it's gonna be something that's gonna tell somebody what you got in your hand. We do it every day. Get honest with it and know what your tails are because your tails also tell you something about yourself.
26:44 Speaker 00 Hmm, this is, I need an example here, Jean, because let's think about an example because you've had so many incredible, high-level conversations with high-level people, high-stakes conversations too. And I think if we can encapsulate the brilliance that you just said in a story, that would be really helpful for folks.
27:04 Speaker 01 Okay, so how am I gonna tell this story without giving away to people though? Because this, this is actually, all right, so in my media career, I have interviewed many, many, many, many, many, many celebrities. And when people are in crisis, or something has happened that they don't want to talk about, their handlers will always tell you, don't ask a question. Um, how can I anonymize this? Ooh, this is hard.
27:41 Speaker 01 Um, I interviewed a recording artist who had been through a breakup of a fair, of a fairly public relationship. And this recording artist is known for serial monogamy.
28:05 Speaker 01 And you know, just going from one to the next to the next. And he had an album out, a new, you know, drop, release or whatever, and I interviewed him. And I, this is not my first time interviewing him. And so I look at him, he looks at me, we start talking about, you know, I'm like, oh, good to see you. How you doing? You know, hugged up, you know, whatever. And we start the conversation about the album because that's what he was there to talk about. And so I get tell, because he knows me, right? Like, we've met before. And I could tell he was like, trying to figure out if and when I was going to ask about said breakup.
28:44 Speaker 01 I could tell because he would literally look at me like, you know, like after every question, be like, that's the question you want to know? And I'm, and when I tell you, I took my time. I took my time because I was like, you know what? This is what you came here to promote. And this is the mistake that a lot of people make when they're doing interviews. You could tell it all the time. They have a short amount of time. They want to get to the good stuff. They want to get to, you know, something that's going to go viral nowadays. But they always want to get to the juicy things. Forgetting that this person came there for a reason. So satisfy the reason why they came there, especially if you have the luxury of time. I knew I was at, like, this wasn't live. So I knew I had the luxury of editing out most of this and whatever.
29:29 Speaker 01 And I wanted it to feel like a conversation. I knew I had about 15, 20 minutes with him. So I spent the first seven minutes just talking about the album like this, comparing it to past albums. Like, remember when you did this? And remember when this happened, blah, blah, blah? And every time he answered the question, it was like, okay. And then he went with it and I could tell, but it, and then by like the third question, he had kind of relaxed and he kind of sat back and whatever. And that's what I leaned for. And I said, so listen, now you know, I was a big fan of you and so and so together. What happened, baby? And he was like, I knew you was gonna ask me that question. And I, but the thing is, he answered me.
30:11 Speaker 01 He answered the question because, he said, well, you know what? That he said, I really did enjoy that relationship, but you know, things happen and, you know, and there's been a lot of stuff said in the media and he didn't really, like, I gave him an open-ended enough question, but he told me more than he told anybody else. Like, he just was like, no comment to everybody else, but he actually gave me an answer and a story because I let him do what he came there to do first. He just had the bad timing of a breakup right before he was trying to promote an album.
30:45 Speaker 01 Pull him, pour him.
30:48 Speaker 00 I've, so for some reason, I feel like whoever he is, I feel like he's doing okay. You know?
30:53 Speaker 01 He is, he's fine, he is just fine. But in that moment, it was like, I, and I knew I was one of the last people he had talked to, right? Cause I had seen his other recent interviews. And so, yeah. It was, it was, it, it's one of those things where you have to read, you know how people say, read the room? You have to respect where people are and when, and understand when they're ready because like, his body language changed, like, his, he was tense when he came in, tense but friendly but tense, because he had already been put over the coals all these other times. But because I had talked to him about what he wanted to talk to, about first, he was able to relax into the moment because he did what he came to do. He didn't feel like he left something undone.
31:37 Speaker 01 He went, once his body language changed, once he sat back in his chair and got comfortable, that's when I leaned forward and went for the rest of it. Because at this point, you've already signaled to me that you are chilling and you are ready to talk. So now let's have the real, let's have the conversation that I want to have now. Because you wanna get it out too, don't you? And that's really how you do it. You wanna get it out.
32:00 Speaker 00 Right. Oh, this is great because there's there we have the the element of connection and trust. So you had you built on a previous good experience because you you've known him before. And then you also have the benefit of reciprocity as well because you know, he's coming in here trying to get something done. He's here for business. And so you respect that. You say, hey, listen, I know you're here for business. Let's get your business out of the way first. And so he mission accomplished and he felt more relaxed. You saw that relaxed posture, you know, the affect changed, he seemed different. And now the defenses are down because if you would have asked that that question like right up front, it would have been either no comment or something very defensive or evasive. And so
32:42 Speaker 01 The rest of the conversation. Yeah, and the rest of the conversation would have suffered as a result of it. And you know, and I think the same things happen, you know, even when I go to speak to an organization or to do things like one time, um, a group of financial executives. And I I rarely get the opportunity to talk to people in banking and stuff like that because they, uh, at least early when I started speaking, because my topic doesn't sound like it would necessarily fit. Right. I have gotten more business out of an International Women's Day event that I spoke to a group of women in business in in finance.
33:23 Speaker 01 Then some of my then then most of my other talks because they were able to see. Because I could tell they were trying to figure out why I was there. You can tell the moment a a a room changes in your favor, right? When you speak to somebody's experience, when you speak to something that they can relate to. And the same shift that happened with that artist happened with these women. They were in the room, they were being polite or whatever. And I, you know, you say what, you know, I realized like, okay, this is a little cool here. And so I spoke to being a woman in a professional setting. And how what the value is that we bring is often not seen and we have to express it.
34:07 Speaker 01 Everybody sat up.
34:11 Speaker 00 Hmm.
34:12 Speaker 01 Just a little bit. Some people did the, you know, the RCA dog.
34:19 Speaker 01 Huh. Like all of a sudden, you can tell when people pay attention because you're you're hitting a chord.
34:28 Speaker 00 That's, this is great because this concept of not only knowing your worth, but also communicating your value is one of the hardest things to do. Because you don't want it to seem as though you are begging for validation, where you're almost giving the other side all of the ammunition, saying, hey, hey, pick me because of this and this and this and this and right? There's a way, and so there's a really tough balance where you don't want to come off as needing their validation, but at the same time, you want to communicate your value to them in and from a place of power. And so how, when you're coaching people and working with people and doing these amazing keynotes, how, what advice do you give to people who are struggling to, to communicate
35:12 Speaker 00 their value without seeming needy as they do it?
35:16 Speaker 01 So the reality is, is that you never have to say what your value is. You carry it with you when you enter a room.
35:26 Speaker 00 Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me, and as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any
36:06 Speaker 00 annoying AI joining your call, just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai/Quami. That's granola.ai/Quami to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai/Quami. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince Casimir sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made. My first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters start at just $60.
36:49 Speaker 00 All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or just go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings only. That's the best way to support the show.
37:25 Speaker 01 It's energy. It's not necessarily words. You know, even though the words are important. And this is the reason why I start with the individual. I start, I call it exercise uncovering authenticity, finding value. Because most people don't know what value they actually offer. Their, because their, their value proposition often shifts depending on what the situation is, even if they're bringing the same thing to the table. So I usually ask people three questions. The first one is, you know, what do you actually do? What's the work you do? Not your job description, not the outcomes that you are hired to, to, to, to make happen. Not, you know, what's the physical work you do every day? What is it?
38:10 Speaker 01 You know, do you lead teams? Do you, you know, provide support for your team? Do you communicate to your external stakeholders? Do you make things? What do you do? Then you ask yourself, what benefits do other people get from that work? And think about all the different people and groups that can have a benefit from the output you have. And then third, what's important to you about providing those benefits? Because you have to connect what's important to you, you know, the Simon, the classic Simon Sinek, what's your why? You have to connect. The reason why you do something to your values and to what's valuable.
38:54 Speaker 01 And while I believe that people have value regardless of their work output, the reality is, is that most of us look at our output in this way from, you know, look at our value from in terms of our work output, especially if you're American. So that's why I base it there. And then you make a statement about who you are, the value you bring to other people and why that's important to you. Because then it grounds you in your values. What's important to you at the end of the day, the thing that keeps you going, the thing you believe in, you know, whether that value is equity, whether that value is, you know, abundance, whatever it is that you value.
39:39 Speaker 01 Your work has to benefit other people in alignment with that. I also think that's a way that you decide where you're going to be. Does the organization you work for actually reflect the same values that you do? Do you reflect the same values that is, is there a mismatch? Has there been a change? Like, that's how, that's how you decide if the work you're doing is valuable, especially as you get older.
40:05 Speaker 01 Then when you know that, you walk into the room very differently. So you could be talking about any, like, most of us do a wide variety of things, right? So when you walk into a room, that person may only care. You may only talk about the thing that they care about. But when you walk in, you bring all of the value that comes with you into that room. And that is how you don't turn into a pick me.
40:38 Speaker 01 Because you don't need that validation anymore, right? What you need, like, that's the reason why I'm able to go in and diagnose problems for companies, right? Like, I had a company call Bring Me In to
40:54 Speaker 01 Develop some leaders, you know, women leaders in the organization because they were expanding and they were expanding wide. They were adding new things to it. So it was a wide and kind of flat organization and they had a lot of people that weren't ready to move up, right? But they wanted to. So they brought me in to do this pilot program with with this group of women and I had been told that they had potential and that they just needed, you know, further training and, you know, understanding of how to communicate as leaders in the organization. And when I started working with them, I realized they didn't have potential. They already had it. They were already doing it. It just wasn't being recognized by the people who needed to be making
41:38 Speaker 01 decisions decisions to put them in the positions they were. So I realized part of that was that they didn't know how to communicate because they were so busy doing that they weren't talking about what they were doing. So the so even though people had a sense that they were doing something, they weren't able to communicate it because they themselves were so busy doing that they hadn't stopped to celebrate what they had done. So when when my my work with them was primarily about helping them be able to see for themselves what they were accomplishing.
42:20 Speaker 01 And when they had their final presentation to their C suite, the, you know, the CEO said to me, oh, my gosh, you did such a great job with them. And I'm thinking to myself, no, sir, I did not. I just told I just taught them how to talk to you about what they do.
42:40 Speaker 01 But it doesn't matter what I did. I did what they hired me to do.
42:46 Speaker 01 Which was see that that potential, you know, like had I needed to to build potential in them? Great. Like, there were a couple of people who did need some further skill development. But really, it was about teaching them how to share what they had already done in a way that helped other people see it and changed how they walked into the room. Everybody talked about how their confidence had changed.
43:11 Speaker 00 Wow. It it all comes back down to the confidence, right? And I for me, it's the distinction between trying to convince people versus conveying. So convince versus convey. So with with convincing, you're trying to not only make an argument, but have that argument be accepted. So if you're talking to a brick wall and the person doesn't accept it, then you have failed to convince them and you're still giving away your power to somebody else. Right? But here, this is about conveying and you can convey without words. And if we want to go through the different generations, we have different terms for it. The the youngest generation would call it aura. We might call it confidence or swagger. And in the business world, we might call it executive presence.
43:54 Speaker 00 But all it is is understanding who you are, the value you bring, and how to connect and have a positive impact with other people. And then I love tying all of that into your values, too. Because when you are able to have that internal alignment, communication becomes far easier because you understand where it's originating from. To me, through me, to you, for a purpose. And you've given people so much clarity. It's kind of, I forget who it is, DaVinci or Michelangelo, some incredible old Italian was.
44:27 Speaker 00 When it comes to the making the the statue of David, they said, it wasn't so much that I I sculpted this. It's that I revealed what was already within the marble. And I think that's what you're doing with people. You're helping them to shed those internal and external barriers they have to true authentic self-expression. And I I think this is incredible, incredible work.
44:49 Speaker 01 Thank you. Thank you. I I I hope that it has an impact because, you know, when you accident, like, all of this came up accidentally, right? Or or maybe accidentally on purpose. I don't know. But it revealed itself to me in the way that, you know, I was guided and led and and all of those things. And I just, I realized other people didn't have this. I took for granted, you know, we take for granted what we know and what we are exposed to. And I'm, you know what, I want to go back to one thing you said about convincing. Most of the time when you are trying to convince somebody else, chances are the person, the first person you're trying to convince is yourself.
45:34 Speaker 01 That's what convincing is to me. It's, it's asking for that, for that validation. Um.
45:42 Speaker 01 But yeah.
45:44 Speaker 00 Oh, now see, I, I keep, I keep on trying to end this interview, Jean.
45:50 Speaker 01 I'm sorry.
45:50 Speaker 00 And you keep on being brilliant. Because what's really interesting is that if we think about it, this is, this is a powerful philosophical message. Because what we're recognizing is that we can't really convince anybody of anything. We have to put them in a position and converse with them in a way that allows them to convince themselves. That's true persuasion. But there is one person that we can and should convince, and that's ourselves. Because we are taking the action and we are the ultimate authority in our life. So I just need to convince myself. And sometimes that takes a few minutes, a few seconds, might take a few days, months, weeks, or even years. But once you can convince yourself that you are worthy, that you have it, you can see that value,
46:33 Speaker 00 then it makes it so much easier for you to convey that just with the presence that you bring.
46:38 Speaker 01 Indeed, indeed. You, you got the keys to the kingdom, my brother.
46:43 Speaker 00 I love it. This is great. And Jean, before you go, just make sure you can let listeners know about the book, where they can get it, and how they can work with you too.
46:52 Speaker 01 Yes, everything at fearlessauthenticity.com. If you want information just about the book, put a slash book on the end of that and they'll take you right to that page. But fearlessauthenticity.com is where you find me. And of course, I'm active on all the social medias. So join me on LinkedIn if you prefer to be professional. If you want to be a little silly, come join me on Instagram. We have a lot of fun over there. I even try the tiki-takis every now and then. Um, you know, you gotta have fun and, and wait, what is the kids, you gotta, you gotta have a little riz.
47:23 Speaker 00 That's right.
47:25 Speaker 01 A little riz. I try, just a little bit. Oh goodness.
47:29 Speaker 00 Jean, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us.
47:33 Speaker 02 I have a question for both of you in this case. Because when I try to, I mean, I love negotiation, but I have my unique point of view about negotiation. For instance, as many things in my life. But sometimes it might be difficult for me to explain my point of view because it's unusual. Let's say unusual. So I feel fear.
47:56 Speaker 02 So what's the difference between feeling fear of speaking up and saying, oh, this is not me. So it's better not to try it because if we feel that something's wrong, it's better not to say. But sometimes we can, we can get confused and, and think that this is not me. And it is actually fear. So what's the difference inside?
48:17 Speaker 01 Oh, that's a good one.
48:21 Speaker 01 So I would say that
48:28 Speaker 01 you have to get in touch with what you're feeling actually feels like physically. You have to name it, right? Self, the best part of self-awareness is understanding what we're feeling. Because I think a lot of times we mistake some feelings for others. And this is the reason why there are points when I would miss. This is almost also part of the reason why I don't do a lot of one-on-one work anymore. Because I often end up realizing that people actually need to go to therapy and talk this stuff out. It's beyond what I can help them with. Because sometimes people call sadness anger, right? Because of, you know, you know what I'm saying? Because, you know, like for instance, people say that depression is actually anger forced within.
49:14 Speaker 01 Like that's how they, they, you know, describe it. Whereas anxiety is like fear of what could happen. Anxiety is, I mean, depression is fear about what has happened and anger about that, right? But as a result, like sometimes people don't understand when they're, they call it, they, they might call it anger, but it's actually disgust, which is a different feeling. Like I think the better we get with our words about giving names to things.
49:51 Speaker 01 That we are feeling and knowing what that is because sometimes that fear, maybe it is fear and it's based on fear, but fear of what? Right? Is it fear of if I say this, then I won't be accepted anymore? Is it so? So is that a fear of not belonging? Or is it a fear that I'm wrong? Right? So is that a doubt? Is it actually doubt? So
50:23 Speaker 01 I would say you'd have to really like, that's an internal experience that
50:31 Speaker 01 that
50:34 Speaker 01 tapping into it instead of running away from it is probably the way to understand how it happens. And sometimes it is about taking that chance, not listening to the fear. And this is what I meant when I said to Kwame earlier about pushing those boundaries to figure out where those boundaries are for you. So it's like, okay, I have fear right now, but what am I actually afraid of?
50:58 Speaker 01 Should I? Should I push this? Let me see. Sometimes you gotta do an A B test. If I do this, what happens?
51:07 Speaker 01 And you, you know, you have to weigh about whether or not you have the opportunity or if it's, you know, if it's too big of a risk for you to test it in that moment. But, you know, nothing ventured, nothing gained. So learning yourself is the most important part. What is that fear? You know, and, and knowing when the fear is actually a warning and when it's just your body going, ooh, am I gonna stand on business today? For myself or am I gonna give, am I gonna capitulate?
51:40 Speaker 00 This is good. I just a couple of things to add because for me, when it comes to those types of situations of whether or not I should say something and I feel that fear, I understand that it's familiar and normal. Like that is a normal human experience. That's the body reacting exactly how it should under the circumstances. And like Jean said, what I have To do then is see, okay, what type of fear is this? Is this a legitimate signal of danger that I should avoid for my strategic purposes? Then then I'll acknowledge that. But in most social circumstances, most social circumstances, it's not. And so for me, instead of like listening to the fear, I think about the fear as a signal, but it's not like a directive. My fear cannot tell me what to do.
52:24 Speaker 00 I have to then think about it. And the question that I ask myself is, what kind of man do I want to be? How do I see myself? And who, what would I do, a person who I aspire to be, do under these circumstances? And a lot of times, the, as I ask the question, that fear grows. Because not only are we afraid of fear, failure, but we're also afraid of success. We're also kind of worried, like, am I worthy about of what's on the other side of this? And then even if I do make the right move and I do level up, can I handle the next level? Right? And so a lot of times when you see a tough situation, where it there's, it's either a lot of pressure or a lot of stress or something bad happened.
53:06 Speaker 00 You'll see me, I will not only be smiling but laughing. Cause I've developed this habit of like, I'm going to laugh at the fear. It is a, a, a, a part of myself that will always be along in the journey. And it will always be there raising the alarm bells in an almost cartoonish type of way. So I just have to laugh and I know it'll come back in waves. And I just need to figure out, all right, really? It's not a situation where what I need to do is strategically difficult to do. Or it's not a question of whether or not I have the tools to execute. That part's actually really simple. I'm just struggling with the weight of the decision because I recognize that it's something substantial.
53:48 Speaker 00 And once I'm able to distinguish between how I'm feeling and what is real and what needs to be done and who I aspire to be. Then a lot of times it's really clear what to do. And you just have to push through that feeling. And I treat it as a practice session. Every time I overcome my fears, I have just practiced overcoming my fears. So it's not even so much about what it is that I'm trying to say in the moment as it is about who I aspire to be and getting better at conquering fear.
54:14 Speaker 01 That is deep. That is beautiful. It is about alignment. It really is about alignment. I just looked over because I wrote myself a note for like when you freeze because like freezing is one of the most primary things that happens when you're fearful. And I saw a woman, a neuroscientist, talk about how you make decisions when you're scared. And it's about identifying what it is, like just what Kwame said, like identifying what it is and then making a decision about that thing. Like if it's about a commitment,
54:54 Speaker 01 ask yourself, will this drain or energize me? Right? And because then you know what you're afraid of in that moment. Like, I'm afraid of being drained. That's probably what it is. And then you ask yourself that actual question. Is that what it is? If it's about tasks you need to do, you know, what will move the needle the most? Right? And so I would say the same would be true of, you know, intervening. Let's call it intervening, whatever, changing some outcome. Will this move the needle? Will like, and as, you know, will it get me closer to my goals? And then if it's a really urgent thing, the question that I ask now is what will my future self
55:38 Speaker 01 thank me for doing in this moment?
55:42 Speaker 00 Oh, that's good.
55:44 Speaker 01 And I wish I had written down the neuroscientist's name, but like I'm a sticky note person. So I have it written down and I have it stuck on my other laptop so that I can see it when I'm having those moments because your brain kind of short circuits when you're feeling feelings. And this is all the feelings, whether it's fear, excitement,
56:06 Speaker 01 joy, anything, your brain kind of shuts off when it floods with all of those feelings. So you're not able to actually think through that moment as well as you would like to. But once you acknowledge what the feeling is, then all of a sudden you kind of take away some of its power over you. And then it's about what's knowing what to do next and making that a habit. Like the laughter, actually laughter is a great way to short circuit a lot of emotions. Like I use that with my, with, when I'm coaching people for media and stuff like that. If you can find a way to laugh when you're nervous, the nervousness goes away, at least long enough for you to to get like your first answer out.
56:48 Speaker 01 Or, you know, something that will give your body feedback that, oh, I'm safe now. Because that's really what nervousness is about.
56:57 Speaker 00 Congratulations, you've just joined an elite club. By listening to a full episode, you're now officially on the Negotiate Anything team. So, welcome aboard. What most team members do is they subscribe to the podcast because that allows them to automatically get the latest episodes of the show. The best things in life lie on the other side of difficult conversations. Keep learning, keep practicing, and keep getting better. Your relationships will improve, your career will soar, and you'll have the confidence you need to get the most out of these crucial conversations. Again, thank you for joining the team. We're excited to have you, and I will see you in the next episode. I'll catch you later.
57:41 Speaker 00 Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever, and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Aron's Mele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work. With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the US Surgeon General to NFL and NBA stars.
58:23 Speaker 00 It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show, too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
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