How to Talk About Money Without Ruining Your Relationships - ft. NerdWallet’s Sean Pyles & Elizabeth Ayoola

You don't need to be rich or a finance expert to start building wealth. NerdWallet's Sean Pyles and Elizabeth Ayoola are living proof. ⁠Kwame's episode on NerdWallet’s Smart Money Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3JsoelBqytmMXRmcA2qtK7?si=-gs3-9uMR2aZ16PNaKX3bg⁠ In this episode of Big Swings Only, Kwame Christian sits down with the co-hosts of NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. Neither of them started out in finance. They learned it on the job, then used what they learned to transform their own lives. Elizabeth went from $0 saved for retirement as a newly divorced single mom to real financial stability, and Sean went from writing about debt to becoming a Certified Financial Planner. We break down the money myths holding you back, the biggest lie on FinTok right now, how to automate your savings, and the money conversations most people avoid. Plus, a lightning round where Sean and Elizabeth go head-to-head on splitting the bill, pay transparency, and whether buy now, pay later is a tool or a trap. CONTACT SEAN & ELIZABETH Smart Money runs on your money questions. Send yours in: • Call or text the Nerd Hotline: 901-730-6373 • Email: [email protected] • Leave a comment on the Smart Money Podcast on Spotify or YouTube Connect with Kwame: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @kwamenegotiates across all social platforms

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Who here wants to be wealthy? I think we all do, but what does that really mean? Well, have you heard of NerdWallet? They have an incredible podcast called Smart Money and we have the two co-hosts Sean Piles and Elizabeth Iola on the show today, breaking everything down from the money myths that hold you back to the lifestyle changes that you need to make to live the life that you want. Here's the thing, a lot of times when it comes to living the life of our dreams, it's within reach. We just don't know how best to move forward. And in this episode, we talk about a lot of stuff. We have a lot of fun, but we also talk about how you can turn those financial dreams into a reality. And those two people, Sean and Elizabeth, what's great about them is that they are case studies in this.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  They didn't come to this position because they were financial experts. They learned finance on the job and then used the tools themselves to turn their lives into the perfect case studies for what it is that we're talking about today. This is the story of Sean Piles and Elizabeth Iola and welcome to Big Swings Only.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings, get three months of granola free at granola.ai/Quami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. And make sure to tell them that Quami with Big Swings Only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch it before Black Friday at spotify.com/Quami.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  So yeah, Simone, why don't we start in Argentina? No, no, Venezuela.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I come from Venezuela. I was living my life in Venezuela. I went to the university in Venezuela, but then things started to get really, really difficult there. So I had to immigrate to Argentina because they created some kind of list that you cannot get any job. And then you have difficulties in your taxes and everything. So I had to go to Argentina that Argentina was a very welcoming country. And I realized that I had to learn how to negotiate because I was trying to sell things. And I needed to learn English too. Back in the day, I didn't speak English. Now I speak just a little bit, but back in the day was even worse.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  It seems like you speak a lot of English. I think so.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  I was gonna say more than a little bit, but okay.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  So I started to listen negotiate anything podcast because I wanted to learn English and wanted to learn about negotiation. One of the first episodes I listened was Quami asking for an editor. So I sent an email to Quami, I said, hey, Quami, I don't speak English. I don't know anything about negotiation, but I want, I would love to work with you.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  So he speaks Spanish. I don't know if you knew, but Quami speaks Spanish. So we, we, we got to talk for the first time in Spanish. He was very, very open about that and he understands my culture because he lived in South America. So, so he, he told me, okay, if you, if, if, what was the, oh, you told me. If everything was for free in the world, what would you like to do? I said, I would like to work with you. I would like to learn from you. So he said, okay, come and work with me. So I had to edit the episodes without knowing English. I didn't know.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  That's impressive.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's why I write so really have a crash course in English then. I mean, you're hearing a lot of it.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I had to learn English.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  I have to listen to the episodes with my dictionary in my hand, trying to figure out if.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  Dedication.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's how I learned English because I needed Quami to, to sound well. I couldn't make any mistakes. So I started editing one episode and it was like, whoa, for two weeks editing just one episode. And that's how I started to work with Quami. And then opportunities, I had more opportunities inside the organization and now I'm, I'm Quami's producer. I went from Argentina to Portugal. I said, Quami, I am moving to Portugal. Can I, can I keep the job while moving to Portugal? He said, yes. Then I came to Canada. He gave me the opportunity to work with him being here in Canada. And he supported me.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  He gave me a letter saying, yeah, Simone is a good worker, a good person. So I could present this, this letter to the government of Canada and, and to my landlord. And, and now I am Canadian right now.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  Wow, that's a beautiful story.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Where in Canada are you?

• 4:50Speaker 01

  I am in Ottawa.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Okay, beautiful.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  I'm so glad that you guys have worked together for so long now. Like what a, what a beautiful partnership.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  I started working with Quami in 2019.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  It's wild.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Basically you're family now.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Quami, Quami is younger than me. I don't know if you knew it, but he's younger than me. But I, I told Quami, when I grew, when I grow up, I want to be like you. At that moment, I didn't know, right?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  But yeah, yeah, I, I, I am very happy to have this opportunity. And that's why I'm happy every time I record with you. Quami, at some point, I remember he told me, Simone, I have a, I want you to help me with something. I don't know if that's okay, because I know that you have many things to do. But I would like you to be with me in the recordings. I was like, okay, that's okay.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Trying to keep it cool. Yeah.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  And this is the best part of, of my job being here with you and sharing all these stories and listening to you. So thank you and thank Quami.

• 6:04Speaker 03

  No, I just want to say I'm one of those annoying people who's, you know, I don't know. Everyone's half drunk at a party and I'm like, hey, so what's your life purpose? Do you enjoy what you're doing? And so many people do not. So anytime I come across someone who lights up the way that you did, talking about what they do, it brings me joy. So I'm happy for you.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Great, thank you so much.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  This is great. I mean, let's, let's keep this vibe session going. Let's roll right into the pot because we like, what? 10 minutes ago, I just come off, came off the best podcast of my life.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  With these two gems, Elizabeth and Sean, thank you for coming here. But the, to your point, Elizabeth, it looks like both of you light up when you talk about the work that you do too. So how, how did both of you start off in this? Let's go ladies first and then Sean, you too.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Wow, I'm gonna try to keep this short. I'm very long-winded and I'm on a podcast. So, but I have, I have a very nonlinear journey into personal finance and becoming a podcast co-host on a finance podcast. But I started out, I studied, studied the social sciences. My master's is in environment, politics and globalization. I wanted to change the world somehow, try to implement some policies. Some would call me a socialist, but I just think we should live in a more equitable world. So I wanted to do work around that. And then I moved to Nigeria. I'm Nigerian and I tried to start working in a waste management company. That didn't work out. I used to write poems, maybe in my late, I still do sometimes, but late teens, early twenties.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  And anyway, while looking for a job, someone was like, hey, why don't you try writing or editing? And I'm like, I never did that before, but you know, in third world countries, sometimes you have zero experience and they just thrust you into any job. So I started out as an editor with only experience writing poems. And that kind of started my trajectory into becoming a writer. So I did that for, oh my God, 10 years. And then I eventually moved back to London, which I'm also from. I got my first big girl job in London as a writer. And then I moved back to the States almost six years ago now. I started writing and then I came to NerdWallet as a writer. That's how I got into finance. And I never thought that I'd be in finance because I always had this stereotype or fed into the stereotype that, you know, girls are not that good at math, finance is difficult.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  I'm not going to be able to understand it.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  But something I did, I've always done throughout my life to challenge myself. And I said, I can learn anything because I learned later in life that if you have a growth mindset, you can learn just about anything. So it also was at a very important intersection where I started writing for finance because I had decided, back to my socialist values that, hey, look. I don't want to be working forever and I do not want to be sucked into this capitalist society of just working to live. How do I become financially free? And I know that if I found a job in finances, it would force me to sit down and learn about money. So that's my long story short. I started out as a writer at NerdWallet. I learned on the job. They thrust me into the deep end. I was writing and learning about retirement and investing as someone with no experience in that.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  But I grew from that and I started doing spokesperson work, YouTube. I used to come on the pod as a guest, as Sean will tell you. And then a job opened up and I was like, hey, I think I can do this. And then here I am. So I think this is my second year.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, my background is maybe a little bit more linear-ish than Elizabeth's because Elizabeth had so much hopping around, but I also don't have a finance background traditionally. I went to a super small liberal arts college in Vermont and studied journalistic writing. And then I was working in the Bay Area, working for a news website in the city of Richmond there, covering everything from like city council to restaurant reviews. And a little more than a decade ago, NerdWallet reached out to me and they said, hey, we are bringing together some young writers to see if they might be, you know, a good fit for NerdWallet. And it ended up being like a month-long almost reality competition where 20 of us were in a room, learning every single day about writing in NerdWallet's style.

• 10:05Speaker 02

  And then there was a vague promise that some people might get hired. And I was really in a point where I could see that my job was kind of winding down and I really wanted this job. And so of the 20 or so people that were in that room, 10 were hired. And now there are just two of us at NerdWallet a decade later. But I'd always been a bit of a go-getter. My liberal arts college was very self-determined and self-driven in terms of what you were writing and studying yourself. And so about even just a few months into my time at NerdWallet, I was like, hey, you know, I love radio. We don't have a podcast. This was back in 2016. And I think that we could really benefit from having one because there are a lot of folks who don't want to read personal finance content but want to hear people's stories about personal finance. So let's give this a shot.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  And my management said, nah, I don't think so. I don't really know what this whole podcast thing is. So let's just put that on the back burner. Eventually I was able to get a trial of like five or so episodes out in 2017. They still weren't ready to continue with podcasting at the time. A couple of years later, in around 2019 or so, 2018, they were able to finally find some resources for me, but I had to do all of it myself. I was scripting, I was producing, I was editing the audio, I was uploading it, I was writing show notes. It was really like a one-man show. And we would have guests like Elizabeth come on and help us answer our listeners' questions because that's like the core of NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast is that people send us their personal finance questions and we answer them. And so I've been doing that now, weekly since 2020.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  And over time, we've grown and grown, we've been able to get more resources. Elizabeth joined me as a co-host full-time last February, which has been phenomenal. In the interim too, I realized that I had some gaps in my own personal finance knowledge because I learned all that I know about finance kind of at NerdWallet. And I went and I pursued my Certified Financial Planner designation. So now on my own, I have a financial planning firm that I carry out as a side business. And all the education has helped inform our conversations with our listeners and with each other on smart money.

• 12:01Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm so proud of Sean. He went out there, he was studying hard and that is not an easy exam, you know, for anybody listening.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  It's six hours. But something that Elizabeth and I talk about a lot on the show is harnessing the way our brains work to help us manage our money in the right way for us. And we both have ADHD and for me, it manifests a lot as hyper-focus. And so sometimes that hyper-focus can be really directed towards something that's positive, like my CFP certification. Or Elizabeth heard me talk about this like all year long, but since January, I was training to run around a mountain. I ran around Mount Hood in Portland over the past weekend, over three days. So, you know, if I'm dedicated and I'm really into doing something, I'm going to pursue it and that's kind of my secret power. And I think that's what helps me help our listeners and my clients really well, too.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  You know what's cool about both stories is that we, neither of you were born with this burning desire to be on NerdWallet and be financial experts. But you found yourself in this position and it just shows how life, a lot of times, isn't really clear what direction you're going to go. Tell me, from the outside looking in, if people look at where you are, they'd say, oh yeah, both of you have it together. They clearly have everything together. Tell us how the journey felt as you were trying to figure things out. Sean, let's start with you, since you won the Hunger Games to get on NerdWallet. You know?

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Man, it felt harrowing, kind of like being on the Hunger Games without, you know, the threat of dying from my peers. But I really did feel like it was a matter of survival for me. I was living in San Francisco at the time and like I mentioned, my job just seemed a little shaky at the time and I wanted to have a little more stability. And NerdWallet seemed like a place where I would have like actual benefits and not be a contractor and be able to make a real difference and help people. And so I was fighting tooth and nail to not just get the job that I landed, but then once I was in there, I started out writing for about consumer debt. And I was the only debt writer because we hadn't really built out that library yet. And I was committed to using all of my journalistic skills that I'd acquired through other jobs

• 14:13Speaker 02

  and through college to do the best job I could do and just to really prove myself and be indispensable. And so that's something that I've been trying to hone in on and continue building on over my 10 years at NerdWallet is just being in my own lane in some respects that I am really valuable as an employee and I'm contributing a lot to the company. And while I'm still kind of doing things my own way, which is often my style, I'm doing it within the parameters of what is helpful for the business. So there's a lot of like really hard work, but also narrative building that goes into that. And it's driven by me kind of having a scarcity mindset and just not wanting to be like out in the cold and have financial stability.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I mean, I think I felt more of that, like really concrete instability when I was younger, but we live in a country without a really firm or secure or vast social safety net. So I think everyone kind of feels that that need to hustle, right? So that's still what drives me.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. That's one thing about America, the high points are higher than any country in the world. And similarly, the low points are lower than most places in the world. Well, I can't say most places, a lot of places, right? Especially as many places that are, that are in the, that are of the size of America, too. The bottom is very low. So that fear is legit.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  And I think when I started this personal finance journey, specifically at NerdWallet, I was at such a pivotal point in my life. So I had just gotten divorced, I'm a single mom to one boy, I, my savings is running out because I just moved from London. And I'm also at a place where I'm kind of at a transition in my personal development because I'm going through therapy, I'm trying to convince myself that I'm worth the life that I can see on the other side of where I am now. And then again, that was kind of the inspiration to even start on this personal finance journey in the first place. And when I look back six years ago at that journey, wow, like there were just so many challenges, but good challenges to push me to this version of myself, to help me grow

• 16:21Speaker 03

  intellectually, to help me grow as a mom, to help me grow financially. I started out at NerdWallet with zero dollars saved for retirement and a very, very slim emergency fund. And, you know, it's incredible, the things that I've been able to apply to my personal finances have been able to create financial stability for myself and also have been able to create a better life for my son just by going down this path. And as you kind of stated, I didn't start out, you know, enthusiastic or passionate about personal finances, but I am now because I can see how much that knowledge has transformed my life and also how what we do every day helps the people around us.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Incredible, incredible. And speaking of helping the people around you, everybody, check out their incredible podcast. They just had a guest, I think his name was Quame, Kwame Christian? Talking about salary negotiation. So check it out, we'll link in the description. Fun fact, when I came to college, people would misspell, mispronounce my name as Quame so frequently that when people would call me Quame, it was either you don't know me at all or you know me really well. It became this running joke amongst my friends and it was a nickname that stuck.

• 17:41Speaker 00

  Like even on the back of the ball court, if they needed to get my attention really quick, Quame, it is who I am.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  But I do feel there's something so particular about having your name missaid that can be, some people can kind of abandon themselves in that way, something you talk about a lot, right, Quame? So how did you actually navigate that? I guess, I know this is your podcast, but I'm not one of them.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  I was going to say, podcast of Sean coming out, asking Quame questions.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  We're vibing, everybody. See, Mo told me to be chill, we're just chit-chat. Yeah, honestly, it became a running joke for me. And so when I knew people were reading my name, I would just look to see the struggle and I would just say which pronunciation would come out. You know, Kwame is how I pronounce it. Trugnaians would say Kwame, like more French, right? And then sometimes people say Kwame and I'm like, okay, that sounds French-ish. I'm like a little flair, cool, I'll accept that, whatever. You know, as long as you're trying your best, but Quame, I would correct you. The funniest one was, there was, when I was a sophomore year, there was this loud music playing as this, I was talking to my resident advisor, my RA for the first time, because he was making the door decorations.

• 18:52Speaker 00

  And he's like, so what's your name? I said Kwame. And he said, oh, Kwambi? I was like, yeah, Kwame. He's like, oh, Kwambi? I was like, I didn't hear. And he's, and then he's like, how do you spell it? And I said K W A M E. And then he said K W A M B? And then I'm...

• 19:11Speaker 03

  Okay, no, he just wanted to change your name at this point.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  The music was so loud that neither of us knew for sure. So neither of us had very little confidence in this situation. I was like, you know, it's a lot of things, but I know he did not say B. And so...

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Next thing I know, I go to the my door, it says K W A M B. And I was like, this is hilarious. You know, but you know, it is what it is because I recognize in different places, the the pronunciation, or especially phonetic spelling, it like throws people completely off. When I was living in Ecuador, Kwame was impossible for people to say. It's just not a sound combination that people make. Think about people from Spanish speaking countries when they come to English speaking countries. The S P sound or S T sound literally doesn't exist as the beginning of a word. So study is often mispronounced as study, right?

• 20:10Speaker 00

  Because, you know, so for me, when I was in in Ecuador, my code switching was, you can just call me Christian. So it's me, you know, with my friends from Ecuador, then Christian was my name. I would just go by that. And then they would shorten it to Chris or Chris. So, you know, it's it's funny, you just kind of make make the adjustments. In in China, it's very hard to say ours. Like they're they're just different languages for different people where it's hard to to to get through.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems like there's a balance between like, you know, asserting your identity and being seen as who you are. But also, you know, kind of playing to your audience and code switching, as you said. And depending on who you are and your identity background, sometimes you really do need to advocate for like, what exactly your name is, whether it's chosen or not. And then sometimes you can just say, eh, no one's gonna understand my name. Like when I travel, my name is Sean, S E A N. And people see it and they get, they say seen a lot, which is surprising. Even in the States, I get seen a lot.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  And I I honestly don't care. I find it kind of funny. So because I know my name, I know that it's not spelled like how it's pronounced. And so if you don't know English well, then it's going to be confusing and that's okay. Like, I'm not someone who's super hung up on my name and that's fine.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  What about you?

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, as a Nigerian girlie, this is very complex, right? Because my parents intentionally didn't give me, I'm Yoruba, I'm from the Yoruba tribe, Yoruba first names, because people struggle to pronounce it. And, you know, I feel a type of way about that, but it is what it is. So they named me Elizabeth first, my middle name is Ayoola. My son has a Yoruba first name, which is Ayamikun. People, they trip all over themselves trying to say his name all the time. And growing up with other Nigerians, I noticed, you know, like you said, Kwame, sometimes you just surrender and you go, okay, well, they don't know how to say it, I'm just gonna accept it as it is. But I don't know how it is in Ghana, but Yoruba names have like a very specific and strong meaning. So Ayew means joy.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  His full name Ayamikun means my joy is full. If so, they call him Ayo, Owl, his track, who's called Owl, Owl. That's not his name because it Owl doesn't mean joy. His name is Ayew. So I personally teach him, I know it can be difficult for someone to get it the first couple of times. But I think if you practice anything and if you if you think it's important to the person, you can master somebody's name. Um, so to your point, Sean, like, that is a big part of his identity. He is a joyful boy and his name means joy. So, you know, I teach him to teach people how to say his name, you know, because I think that's an important value to me.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  To to add to the confusion with my name, it's confusing in a lot of different ways. Because my family's from the Caribbean originally. And so that's true, but we they just admired Kwame Nkrumah, who was the first president of Ghana.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Okay, so your name is Ghanaian, but your family's from the Caribbean?

• 23:04Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly. So whenever I talk to somebody who's African, especially West African, they say Kwame, so you're, no, I'm not Ghanaian.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  I'm not gonna lie, I thought you were Ghanaian. I was like, oh, it was my brother, because y'all ride across the pond. And then, oh, then he said you were Caribbean, I was like, wait, what?

• 23:20Speaker 00

  I know, very confusing. And to add to the confusion, my mom is from Guyana, which makes people think that I'm just mispronouncing Ghana. It's K. Chaos.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  That's a lie.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Yes. Hey, Sean, you want to see some? Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an A I powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too. So there's no additional setup or any annoying A I joining your call.

• 24:15Speaker 00

  Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola dot A I slash Kwame. That's granola dot A I slash Kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola dot A I slash Kwame. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in A I chats.

• 24:57Speaker 00

  And Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to thirty six percent higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify dot com slash Kwame to start your free trial. That's Shopify dot com slash Kwame. Go to Shopify dot com slash Kwame to hear your first.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  Funny.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Always.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Okay, check this out. So Elizabeth, it's, I'm sure that you believe that Ghana makes the best Jollof. Is that right?

• 25:38Speaker 03

  Why would you do this? I thought we were friends. I thought we were friends, Kwame. What do you mean? Why would you create this division?

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Nigeria has the best Jollof rice. This is not a debate.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a rice dish, right? Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Give him context, Kwame.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  Okay, so let's let's make this super meta. This is a crossover every crossover episode, everybody. So remember in our episode when I talked about compassionate curiosity with step one, acknowledging and validating emotions? If you're really close with somebody, you could do reverse validation in a playful way, where you know what they are feeling and you intentionally say the opposite to get them to light up, right?

• 26:20Speaker 03

  You mean rage baiting?

• 26:21Speaker 00

  Exactly. Exactly. So what's funny is I am I am the half Dominican from Dominica, not Dominican Republic, even though my birth certificate says Dominican Republic, which causes chaos. Um, and then, and my name is Ghanaian, but I am also honorary Nigerian. For some reason, all of my closest friends are Nigerian, Ibo, Yoruba, River State, everything. So I can make Jollof, I can make stew. I like, I've got, we've got a Nigerian teammate where we are in talks to to do some work in Nigerian too. So the funny thing is for me, I don't, I'll never do a D N A test.

• 27:04Speaker 00

  Because my friends who are Nigerian, I never want to give them the satisfaction of knowing that they were right. They just say, they're like, Kwame, stop saying you're from the Caribbean, you're one of us, you're Nigerian, you're naked, you're a decided Nigerian. I never want to let them know for sure.

• 27:22Speaker 00

  So this is funny. So yeah, how for you, Elizabeth, when you think about your background? Because you've got three continents deep under your belt here. Culturally, where do you align most?

• 27:36Speaker 03

  That is so difficult. I used to struggle to answer that, even when people go, where are you from? Because I feel some connection to all places. So I was born in London, I left at seven, moved to Florida, left at seventeen from Florida, back to London, and then lived in Nigeria from like twenty one to twenty seven. So I've lived in all of the places, right? And I think all of the places have shaped who I am. But I'm gonna say fundamentally, I probably connect most with Nigerian culture. Because I am a first generation Nigerian, both of my parents are born and raised in Nigeria, moved, you know, across the ponds to start a better life. And that is the culture that I grew up in at home. Now, outside, school is a different thing, but that's the culture that I always came back to.

• 28:18Speaker 03

  And I think going to live in Nigeria throughout my twenties kind of cemented that for me and helps create an even more deep cultural connections, I'd say. I relate with that the most. Now, where do I like to live the most?

• 28:32Speaker 03

  The U S has its issues. It has its issues, but I'm here for a reason and I could never see myself living in London again. Despite, yes, the universal healthcare and a more generous welfare state and not, okay, I'm not going to comment on the president or ruling party, but, you know, there are things here. I feel like I've been able to make a lot of my dreams come true here. Whereas in the U K, there are some limitations because the welfare state's a bit more generous. So, yeah.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  Makes sense. That makes sense. For you, Sean, when you think culturally, you have San Francisco, now in Portland. Where do your allegiances more like lie for you?

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I am just like, in terms of my heritage, I'm just so white in some way. But I I did a D M A test and I'm like French and English and like that's and Danish and that's kind of about it. And so growing up, I didn't have like a strong heritage that I felt tied to. But I've known my entire life that I'm gay. I pretty much since I was like five years old, I remember knowing that. So I feel like that is actually my cultural identity in terms of the tribe that I connect with most is queer people around the world. And living in Portland, it's the the most queer friendly place I've ever been. And I lived in San Francisco, but it's a different experience. That's more like tech is the dominant culture and then like kind of cis gay men.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Whereas Portland is kind of more diverse in its queerness. Um, and so that is where I feel most at home is in a group of people that have different ways of creating their lives. Because something I talk about with my queer friends a lot is that to be queer is to live a life of really intentional self design. Because we don't have a lot of the same traditional paths to follow in terms of getting married or having children. We have more opportunities to really understand what our individual values are, why we value them. A lot of queer people I know will take on a new name that fits better to who they are as a person. And and I appreciate that sort of self determination that is inherent in my community. Because it means that our lives can be more expansive than people who might feel beholden

• 30:40Speaker 02

  to more traditional ways of living their lives.

• 30:44Speaker 03

  So beautiful, Sean. I learned something new about you. Sorry, go ahead.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  Great. You know, there is, let's, let's go deeper on this because for me, I've, I've got a lot of friends in the community. And one of the things that I've learned from them and started to adopt into my own life was such a powerful concept called chosen family. And, and can you tell us about that in general and what it meant to you personally?

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, chosen family, for those who may not know, it's kind of what it sounds like, right? Where you have a set of people in your life. It could be a coworker who you're really close with. It could be a really good friend. It could be an ex lover or partner of yours who you still are really close with. And you rely on them to do things like, you know, if you're out of town, they're gonna watch your dog for you. You're probably gonna have Thanksgiving together. You'll go for walks together. It could just be really good friends too that you have. But you rely on them in the way that you would your family in a lot of ways. But there aren't the hangups around like a sort of blood obligation to feel connected to them. You're electing to have these people in your life where certain people who are queer come from backgrounds where their families aren't accepting. And so they might be actually rejected, kicked out of their families, or

• 31:54Speaker 02

  just feeling unsafe, or maybe they know their family's never gonna use their right name or their right pronouns. And so it's harmful for them to be around the people that actually, you know, they came from. So they created these new families that give them the support that they really want from a family dynamic. And we see a lot of people in Portland actually going in and buying houses together. Something we talked about recently on the podcast as a queer collective, whether they're friends, or they're in like a polycule arrangement of some sort, and doing that to pool resources to have mutual aid and mutual support.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Beautiful. This is, this is so fascinating, because the, a lot of what you're saying ties back to what both of you are doing with nerd wallet, which is really being intentional about life design. And one, one thing that I've been finding a lot of value in is talking, thinking about wealth more holistically. Because it's such a powerful term, but we limit it. We always, wealth, honey, okay, that's it. But we, then we see wealthy people who are like unhealthy, unhappy, like, you know, emotionally destitute. And we're like, I don't think that's wealth.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  So glad you said that. Something I talk about a lot with Elizabeth and with my friends is this idea of non-financial wealth. And how there are different pillars of non-financial wealth. So if you're watching this in video, you see Elizabeth's paintings behind her, her creativity, her passion, her artistry is a form of non-financial wealth because it feeds your soul. And your friendships are, I guess, sort of social non-financial wealth that you have. I'm really big into gardening, and I have a sort of a rose garden in my backyard. I have vegetables growing. And that is another form of non-financial wealth in terms of like feeding myself and feeding my soul through my practice of gardening, and also sharing that with my friends and my neighbors. So that's something that I think people don't take,

• 33:43Speaker 02

  don't take enough time thinking about, especially when it comes to life planning. With retirement, a lot of people think, oh, I just need a certain number in my retirement account, and then I'm set for the rest of my life when I retire. And then they retire, and their life feels really empty, because they haven't spent the time that they were investing in their retirement accounts, investing in the other parts of their life, like building these relationships, building these hobbies, finding ways to make an impact on your community. And that's just as important as anything you're doing with your money.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Can I advocate for myself really quick?

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Please.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  For anyone out there watching, my painting is not crooked, okay? Because since Sean wanted to point out my paintings, not crooked. All right, anywhere.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Matter of the camera perspective. Yeah, we were trying to figure this out earlier. Elizabeth has her paintings hung straight on the wall. Don't trust the camera.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Almost straight, but yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Wait, Elizabeth, before you answer, okay, listen, I've got a simple question, yes or no. There's a lot riding on this. Sean mentioned your paintings, your artistry. Are you an artist?

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Yes, I am.

• 34:50Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  Now you gotta give context.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  Thank you. Okay, see, you see, I'm dropping all these Easter eggs, people. You gotta check out the, the episode we did. Because before we started, I saw the paintings and the back, there's a whole, there's a whole ass easel in the background.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  And I asked her, oh, so you're an artist? And she said, well, I don't know if I'm an artist.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  I did say it like that, too.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  That's right. Own it. Own it. But, but let's, actually, let's talk about owning it. Because I know there's, it's funny, when everybody looks at some people like you, who seemingly have it all together from the outside looking in, they're probably like, oh, they've always figured it out. They always knew who they were. And I feel like there is a lot of power with, number one, owning your identity, but owning the quirks and apparent inconsistencies along with that identity. You know, how, how did you go about figuring out and accepting who you were as you were going on these different stages of your journey? Elizabeth, since I called you out, I'll start, start with you.

• 36:01Speaker 03

  You know what? Kind of, it makes me think about Sean thing. He always knew that he was queer from the age of five, you know? I think a part of our, our identity, we already know when we're born. Like, in some religions, they believe that life is, is this journey of remembering who you are, that you know when you're born, but the world kind of makes you unlearn these things and question. And then you're just trying to get back to center of a remembering. So I've always been this very deeply thinking, deeply curious, deeply feeling person. But as a child that was tagged as being too sensitive, I didn't necessarily have the environment where I was allowed to be deeply feeling and curious. So I feel like most of my adulthood has been owning that and rediscovering that, and accepting that itself.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  But all that to say, at every stage of my life, I have always asked myself, I've always had journals, I've always said, like, is, how my life is right now, does this bring me joy? Does it make me happy? Does it feel purposeful? And that has always kind of directed my next step. So I'm here where I am today because I continuously ask myself those questions. And I don't really toot my own horn a lot, but I am very proud to say that my life, I designed my life to be this way, because I was, you know, courageous and brave enough to always stop doing something or walk away from things that didn't align with who I wanted to be and how I wanted my life to be. And also to own when, yeah, I've, I've made a misstep or a mistake and be able to cut those losses so that I can get closer to who I want to be. So I

• 37:27Speaker 03

  think it's just that continuous questioning myself and answering honestly, because sometimes we ask ourselves these questions and we're afraid to answer honestly, because it means we might have to do something about it, or we might have to change something about ourselves or our situations, and we're not brave enough to do that yet. I will add as well, community has helped me own myself, you know, being around people who believe in you, who see you for who you are, and are not trying to ask you to be something else, or contort you into their version of you, and also therapy. So those are my things.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Beautiful. What about you, Sean?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  I think that my, my journey to, to owning and knowing myself has been up and down at times. Because I have ADHD, it's been challenging at times to kind of grapple with the parts of my brain that are like a little less attuned to this like hyper capitalist society we live in. But I keep coming back to this idea that someone very dear in my life is an artist, and one of their mottos is that your mistakes are your style. And so whatever you do in your work that doesn't seem like it's quote unquote, right, that's what makes you you, that's your strength. So even if like my brain's a little scattered at times, and I'm hopping from one topic to the

• 38:38Speaker 02

  next one, we're talking a phenomenon that, that we call dolphining in the ADHD world, where like you have an idea here, and it's gonna go back under, and then five minutes later, you're just gonna jump up again like a dolphin in the water. But it's, that's kind of how our brain works differently. So even though I have maybe a less traditional or less common path of like thinking and processing, it's one of my greatest strengths, because it drives a lot of my creativity. And I think part of why Elizabeth and I work so well together is because her brain has a similar funky fashion to it. And so we're always like jiving and creating and having a great time. And that, that really comes back to just understanding what makes us maybe have a hard time with certain aspects of our life empowers other

• 39:18Speaker 02

  aspects. And so that's what helps me continue to stay focused and think and, and trust myself that even at the hard times, like I, I know my instincts are good. I know that I'm hardworking. I know that I can do work that helps people, because that's my ultimate driving factor is like, I want to do things that improve people's financial lives. And what we're doing every day does that, and that's really gratifying.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  Beautiful. Yeah, it this is really cool because I um I'm a proud graduate of the Ohio State University. We always have to have the the.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  The.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  And there's a um, there's a big grassy knoll in our area that um is called the oval. And there are walkways that seem really random going across the oval. And what they did was they waited to see where people would walk and where the grass was already dead. And that demonstrated where they should actually make the walkways. And I think our lives are a lot like that, but we often don't give ourselves permission to do it. We say, well, no, I mean, walkways should be, you know, at a right angle. Every single time. So I should do it because that's the right way to do it. But both of you are great examples of the fact that life isn't really like, I mean, look at Seabone, look at me.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  Like, we we didn't expect you here. But when you start to give yourself permission to be yourself and then create a life by design, then things start to fit. And what's funny is that when I think about the like personal finance, I think about boring things that are going to probably not be fun to do or hurts um austerity measures in your own life. And so let's, can you help us to disavow um some of these myths that exist about finance and personal finance especially? A lot of times it's like medicine that doesn't taste good that will eventually maybe help in thirty years. Like this doesn't, this is not appealing. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high quality staples with one hundred percent Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather. And their cashmere sweaters start at just sixty dollars. All of it is fifty to eighty percent less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or just go to quince.com.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings Only. That's the best way to support the show. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to thirty six percent higher than the competition.

• 42:40Speaker 00

  So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to spotify.com slash Kwame to start your free trial. That's spotify.com slash Kwame. Go to spotify.com slash Kwame to hear your first.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Well, one thing I always want to emphasize is that money is just a tool to get what you want out of life and help shape that life that you're creating for yourself. So even though it might seem like medicine, medicine is a tool too, right? And there are certain steps that you're going to take that maybe aren't the most enjoyable, but they can pay off a lot faster than you think. And when people have this idea of austerity, I think that can come from a false scarcity mindset. They have a lot more options than they probably realize when it comes to things like paying off debt or trying to get into homeownership or saving for retirement. But because they feel like they only have a certain amount of money each month, uh which may be true, they they think they don't maybe have the ability to do things like save.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  So one thing that we emphasize a lot is really just start by knowing your values and your goals. What do you really care about in this life? And then thinking about how money can be the the way to get you there. So Elizabeth travels a good amount in part through work. So we recently were talking about this idea of savings buckets, sinking funds on the show, which is where uh you have different savings accounts for different goals. And we talked about this because at one point I had uh like around ten of them. And Elizabeth thought that I was a lunatic for this, but hey, I mean, I have a house that needs a home improvement fund. You know, I've got my emergency fund first and foremost. I've got a fund for my car, I've got one for fun.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Um, so these different goals I have, I have them segmented out and it allows you to leverage like the psychology of money and behavioral finance to actually make progress on your goals really quickly and not feel like you don't have enough money left over at the end of the month to save for anything at all. So there's a lot that you can do without really having to do too much besides the initial setup.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  I will say, pulling from my own experience, that building wealth has to be this big, complicated thing. I started out and I didn't start for so long because I thought like I have to be an expert. I have to learn all about the stock market and I have to stock pick and I have to have a lot of money. So there are just so many myths around you needing to one be wealthy and needing to be an expert to start building wealth. And you don't need neither. The fundamental is is having a good budget, knowing where your money goes. You'd be shocked that we have people come out on the show all the time. If you're listening, this is no shade to you at all. We'd love to have you on the show. But people don't, and this includes myself, people don't know where their money is going. They don't know what they're spending money on every month and they're so afraid to look.

• 45:34Speaker 03

  You're so afraid to look at your statement and be like, it was me to spend all that money? It wasn't fraud, it was not fraud, it was you, right? Um, but yeah, to my point, first of all, having a good budget will it will show you where you do have that money to save. Because you think you're broke and you think you don't have enough, it's because your money is going to things where you don't know where it's going. So that's the first thing. Secondly, you don't have to be a stock market expert to start investing. There are things like index funds, we have so many resources on nerdwallet.com that literally helped me to start my investing journey. So you don't need to stock pick, you can invest in an index fund, a mutual fund, whatever your flavor is. And then you basically get a share of the market in these things, you get a share of different stocks.

• 46:15Speaker 03

  And then you get exposure to the market and it helps with diverse portfolios as well. And you can start investing that way. And also, you don't need to start with a lot of money. You can put in a couple of dollars a month, you can do what's called dollar cost averaging, which is putting in the same amount a month, whether that's going to be fifty dollars, a hundred dollars. And then your money is going to start compounding. So I think the people, the thing that people don't realize realize about wealth is, for example, if you need a million dollars to stop invest or rather to retire, you don't need to save up literally a million dollars, you need to start investing in the market and your money is going to compound into a million dollars over time. So one thing I'll say before I end my point is use a compound interest calculator. That changed my life.

• 46:56Speaker 03

  So we have them on nerd wallet, if you want to use that or wherever you can find one, but just seeing, okay, if I invest consistently a hundred dollars a month for the next fifty years, seeing how that money can grow, or if I put in ten thousand and don't invest anything else, seeing how your money can grow really will do something to you, well, did for me psychologically, to help you get motivated to just start saving and investing.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Brilliant. What's cool is that both of you are case studies in this. Because again, hammering this home, people will look from the outside and say, these are financial experts. You became financial experts once you got on the podcast and started doing the things. And so you're a case study in what actually works. And what I love about Elizabeth, what you just said too, with the compound interest calculator, then you turn it into math and math can be very persuasive if it's obvious enough. And you you say, I don't like math, fantastic, the the the the.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  They're told.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  Will do it for you. So that's no longer a legitimate excuse. And and it sounds like for both of you, when you're talking about investments, like for instance, a hundred dollars a month. Or Sean, like you said, having the savings funds that for different accounts. It sounds like those things are happening automatically. Am I getting that right?

• 48:07Speaker 03

  You can. Mine goes straight out of my paycheck into all my accounts. So I save a set amount for retirement, for my emergency fund, it comes out my paycheck. So it's a method called pay yourself first. That way the money is gone. So if you are someone who struggles with impulse spending, the money goes into that account. It creates some friction because for retirement accounts, for example, you're going to get penalized if you go and double dip and withdraw it out because you overspent for the month. So it helps kind of to create some discipline. And once you see that money going up, right, you see those savings going up, it can be a motivator to keep going. So you can automate just about anything.

• 48:42Speaker 00

  Amazing, amazing. It's like the uh, I remember somebody saying, yeah, it went into my bank account and somebody's been stealing from me and it's me.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  And really, I want to take it further and say you're stealing from future self in some ways, right? Because we're all going to age, we're all going to retire at some point, and you're going to need that money to live comfortably.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. And going back to the idea of wealth that you mentioned earlier, Kwame, some some folks say that wealth is not what you have, it's what you keep. And so it's a matter of how much you're putting into your savings accounts and how much you're putting into your investment accounts and letting that grow over time. Yes, you're going to have to dip into your savings, that's the the point of them ultimately, especially if there's an emergency. But if you put the money in there in an automated way, whether it's like by each paycheck or you're doing at a certain date of the month, um, that's just going to make it so that you don't know or you don't have any guesswork around whether you're going to be saving, it's just going on in the background.

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Amazing, amazing. All right. By the way, do you know what time it is?

• 49:43Speaker 03

  No.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  Do do do do do do. It's time for the lightning round.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  All right, let's do it.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  We're never.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  We used some sound effects.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. We will never change it. What is the biggest lie on FinTok right now?

• 50:00Speaker 02

  That you need complicated insurance products to grow your money.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Oh, that's.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  A lot of people are using these universal indexed life insurance products and they're just not a great tool for most people. But people get really sucked into these hyper complicated ways of growing wealth that feel like a secret. And they think that they've learned some like really cool undiscovered way to grow their money. When for most people, just index funds and high yield savings accounts are going to be the best for most folks.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  That there's no point in saving for retirement because we're all going to have to work till we die. I'm seeing that touted a lot on FinTok right now, and it's very, very, very concerning.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  You do not have to choose to work forever. And even if your financial situation is difficult right now, even if you have mounting debt, even if you have student loans that aren't going anywhere, even if you can't find a job, that does not have to be your situation forever. That's just what's happening right now. And actually, you're choosing in this moment, if you say, I'm not gonna save for retirement, I'm just gonna YOLO it. You're choosing to set your future self up for a potential working forever. The best thing that you can do is work with what you have, even if that's a little bit, like we said, compound interest will do magic. Keep on contributing to those retirement savings accounts. Keep on looking for a job, keep on trying to pay down your debt and just focus on what's in your control.

• 51:17Speaker 00

  What is the number one money conversation that people avoid and who are they avoiding it with?

• 51:22Speaker 03

  People don't want to talk about their money, especially with parents. We were talking about this on a recent episode. People don't want to have financial conversations with their parents, especially aging parents, especially people in the sandwich generation. They don't want to ask them if they have a will. They don't want to ask them if they have a trust. They want to ask them about all their financial documents. And that puts you in a very, very vulnerable position because if your parent passes away, and when they do, because we're all gonna die, you have no clue what their financial situation is and you could be left with a big mess. And likewise, the parents who are not having the conversations with the kids are not communicating what their last wishes are, where they want their money to go.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  Some of them don't even have any documents in place to ensure that their estate is distributed in ways that they, that would honor them and honor their kids as well.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Brilliant. And a quick note for those listeners who are in Ohio. I am still licensed in Ohio and I work for Carl Alpatin Murphy, an estate planning and business law firm. Contact us if you need help.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  Excellent plug. Well, you got a great plug in our show too. You're just.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  I know. Listen, I'm on fire. I'm feeling good today. Okay, Sean, same thing. What is the number one money conversation that people are avoiding and who are they avoiding it with?

• 52:37Speaker 02

  People are not talking about their debt, particularly their credit card debt with their spouse. We see, I see people in my practice who have credit card debt that they haven't shared, that they have that with their partner. And so each person feels really siloed. It can lead to financial infidelity and feelings of shame, feeling of separation. And if you just lay out, hey, my money isn't going as far as it used to because inflation is out of control and I racked up some credit card debt just trying to maintain our lifestyle and have good memories with you. That will relieve so much stress, you'll feel closer with your partner and you'll be able to actually make a plan to resolve what you owe because credit card debt really eats into your other financial plans in a way that can be devastating long term.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  So good. So good. Oh, this one is going to be fun because Elizabeth has to take the counter position. All right.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  Now you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to play the heel in this one, Elizabeth. All right. So Sean, starting with you. Salary negotiation or index funds, which one actually builds more wealth by 40?

• 53:44Speaker 02

  I don't have my financial plan calculator with me, but I'm going to say if you start investing at 20 and you're investing every single month doing that dollar cost averaging, you'd have more wealth by 40 investing in the stock market than you would through salary negotiations.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  We're seeing, especially in this generation, more people job hopping. And this is also a common conversation that if you stay in the same job for too long, there's only so much that you can increase your salary. So if we have people like myself, well, not myself, I don't job hop anymore, but my sister, sorry sister.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  Loyal to Nerd Wallet.

• 54:17Speaker 03

  Changes jobs, loyal to Nerd Wallet, who changes jobs every couple of years or sometimes months, then there may be an opportunity if your skill development is pacing your job hopping, that you could double or even triple your salary. Now, the real question is, what are you doing with the extras in your salary? Do you have lifestyle creep? Are you investing it or are you spending it? That's going to determine whether you're wealthy or not. Not how much you earn, but how much you save and invest.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Should you tell your friends what you make? Yes.

• 54:47Speaker 03

  Oh, I love, why do you pick me for this? Not about to get loud. Should you, so I tell anybody who will listen what I make because I believe in pay transparency. Now, I think, oh, but let me, but let me, let me dial that back because we're talking about your friends. I need some more clarity around this. Are we saying it just for the sake of it? Are we saying it because we're having financial conversations that we bragging? I mean, why are we talking about it?

• 55:12Speaker 00

  I'm a fan of nuance. You can, you can pick. So what are the situations?

• 55:17Speaker 03

  Okay, fine. All my friends know how much I make because at some point I'm always talking about money. It comes up in conversations and even if that's around salary negotiation or how I'm investing or dividing my money at the time. So I, I am very open about pay transparency. And I guess still back to my main point, even if we're not in the same industry, knowing how much someone else makes can help you maybe question how much you're making. And it could also motivate you to make more, assuming they make more money than you.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Yep. Great answer. Ooh. All right, Sean. Now, same question. Should you tell your friends what you make? Yes or no and why?

• 55:53Speaker 02

  I think absolutely because it leads to more equitable dynamics in your friendships. I've been in relationships with my friends where they've made way more than me or where I've made more than certain friends. And if we all want to go out and have a nice night together, going out to dinner, going out to a bar. If I know a friend is kind of in a hard place financially, I'm covering their bill that night because I want to share this experience with them and I don't want to impact their budget in a way like that. And also I think it can help my friends advocate for more raises themselves. But really what it comes back to me is having equitable dynamics with my friends.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  Brilliant. Oh, that's so good. So good.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  I find.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  For real. Yeah. Because I think about too, especially when you want to do especially trips with a friend. Being transparent about that is important. I heard this really funny story. It was funny because it didn't happen to me.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  It'd be a different story if it had happened to you.

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Somebody came, like went on this big international trip and all they could afford was to get there. You know, no shame if that's where you are strategically.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Communicate that to people. Communicate. And so he just got there and then he just kept saying, hey, man, I got literally zero with the bank account. And just asking his friends the whole time, they, they, it would have been different if he would have communicated that. He did.

• 57:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  You know, was like.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  But I get.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  The social pressure can be so extreme to spend money on group trips. I just had a friend who ended up dropping around $2,000 on another friend's bachelorette party. And, you know, he didn't really know a lot of the people that were part of this big event. And it just, there was the, their Airbnb, the dinner, the flight, the other travel. And then again, that doesn't even include going to the wedding itself. But there's this huge culture, especially around weddings of supporting your friend and spending all this money. And I think as the person who is getting married, it's on you, it's on you to understand who your friends are and not ask too much of them. But, you know, I know it's a hot topic. Some people like to have extravagant bachelorette parties, but I think it's kind of wasteful.

• 57:55Speaker 03

  I like to say no. I've learned to say no.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  I said no to multiple trips this year because when you get back and now you have to drink cereal and eat bread, no shade to anyone who does, for dinner. Because you spend all your money on the trip, you know, it's you that suffers the consequences. And a friend who loves you, right, can understand if it just doesn't fit in your budget and you can't afford to go.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Splitting the bill when you ordered a salad and they ordered a steak, what do you say?

• 58:23Speaker 02

  It depends on how expensive each thing. I assume the salad was way less expensive than the steak, right?

• 58:28Speaker 00

  The salad was thirty dollars, the steak was two hundred.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Hit the side, Sean, so I can oppose you.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  I'm gonna say, especially assuming that we make about the same amount of money, continuing my equity thing, then my friend who got the steak is gonna be Venmo-ing me for that. And I'll take the credit card points because that's my prerogative. I want all the points for going out to eat at this restaurant.

• 58:47Speaker 00

  Oh, nice. Okay, Elizabeth, what do you say?

• 58:51Speaker 03

  I could be on both sides, but I'm gonna be the devil's advocate here and say, I cannot stand a penny pinching, sending me a Venmo request, sending me a Zelle request friend, okay? It's like, if we're truly friends, there are gonna be times where I pay the bill and times where you pay the bill. And I feel like it balances itself out. Unless it's maybe in, I don't know, a five-figure amount, okay, maybe that's a little too high, but unless it's a huge chunk of money, I'm not gonna ask you for the money back unless I'm personally struggling. And even then, I feel like I believe in abundance. And I feel like if I blessed you here, I'll get a blessing somewhere else at some other point. So I think if we're friends, you know, we don't need to be splitting the bills. Somebody can cover it sometimes.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Buy now, pay later. Buy now, pay later. A tool.

• 59:37Speaker 03

  I'm sorry. I'm screaming because me and Sean are at odds on this one. So you're naturally gonna get opposition. We have episodes on this. Buy now, pay later. I'm gonna get stoned for this, but it can be a tool. It can be a useful tool. I know that people shame it because it is a tool for those who don't know by now, where you can buy something and pay it in installments and sometimes at no interest, depending on the installment plan that you have. It can be cheaper than a credit card. Let's say you have a big expense coming up that you can't pay in one. You can use buy now, pay later and pay no fees on it, whereas with the credit card, you're gonna pay interest if you leave a balance. I think lots of people are struggling financially right now with inflation and the state of

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  the economy. And buy now, pay later can be a way for them to financially survive this economy. Not everyone can afford to pay in one. If you use it responsibly and you are not prone to impulse spending, it can be a tool. So, again, I can't shame how people are using it, but if we are going on multiple vacations and stacking loans, and we are out, you know, going on shopping sprees and stacking loans, then it probably is not a good tool for you.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Elizabeth, thank you for bringing some nuance to this, because I'm gonna take the absolutist position with the caveat that everything you said is totally correct. I do not like buy now, pay later loans because they can be such a trap. A lot of people use them for discretionary purchases like clothes or vacations, and then they end up stacking loans. That's where things get really risky. They have different loans, maybe from different vendors, and it can be really hard to keep track of who you owe what, when. And then your budget's thrown off because you couldn't afford this thing initially outright in the first place. And then you feel really tight and you're doing what Elizabeth is doing and having cereal and bread for dinner, and that just sucks. So I'm not a fan of buy now, pay later loans.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Oh, this, this segment was great. Simone, this is great. Okay. And so, all the time, every episode, we bring Simone in to either ask a question or give an insightful comment before we wrap. Simone, what's on your mind? Try this. Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem, because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes, and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured

• 1:02:04Speaker 00

  notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio, too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai/Quami. That's granola.ai/Quami to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai/Quami. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up, and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to thirty-six percent higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to spotify.com/Quami to start your free trial. That's spotify.com/Quami. Go to spotify.com/Quami to hear your first.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Well, in this case, I have a question. As you know, I come from Argentina. It's a totally different world. So how do we protect our money there? You just buy dollars. That's our strategy. We have pesos. When we have too much pesos, we buy dollars. We put the dollars under the mattress and that's it. That's all our financial plans are buying dollars and putting dollars under the mattress. Not even in the bank, because we have had experiences that the banks just close and leave and people, people lose their money. So that's the only strategy that people in South America have, at least in Argentina

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  and Venezuela. And then when people, when people come to these countries like me, we are newcomers, and we have to change the way we see finances. So for someone who's a newcomer, what would be a good advice? Because people tell me, yeah, invest in the stock market. And I say, okay, right. Who's this guy's stock market? I want to talk to him and see what he's doing so that I can invest. So this is the second step. What would be the first step? What would be the right advice for a newcomer? Where should I start?

• 1:04:49Speaker 03

  You wanna start with a budget. I said it earlier. I know it's very boring, but you wanna start with a budget, because a budget is gonna tell you before you even jump to investing how much you can afford to invest. I will also say an easy place to start, depending on who your, well, I know who your employer is. Quami, Quame, Quam.

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  Depending on who your employer is, you could start by just getting a 401K match, if you have a 401K. That's the easiest place to start. People always leave money on the table. A match is essentially where your employer says, if you contribute sixty dollars a month, I'll match you and contribute sixty dollars a month, or up to a certain amount. So you start by getting your match. You look in your budget. Emergency fund is another easy, low-hanging fruit. Lots of people get into debt because they do not have an emergency fund. Their car breaks down, they have no way to fund it. Their roof comes in, they have no way to fund it. An emergency fund, you should have three to six months of living expenses in there, so you can gradually build that up over time. And then when it comes now to investing for yourself, go on nerdwallet.com, of course. And you can read our resources

• 1:05:54Speaker 03

  because we have so many articles and videos on how to start investing as a beginner. And as I said, when you're looking for index funds, that is, sometimes I'm not a financial advisor, can't tell you where to start, but if you are gonna start with index funds, that is a low-hanging fruit. And you can just basically look at fees. You want one that has low fees, and that exposes you and gives you as much diversification to the market as possible. And with that, you are not stockpicking. You're exposed to different companies. And then you can start investing like that.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  And something else I'll add is that you're learning a new country's financial system kind of from scratch. And that's where NerdWallet comes in really handy. We're primarily US-based, but we also do have NerdWallet Canada. So I would recommend you check out the Canada-specific version of the website, because it has all sorts of information around, you know, doing what you can around Canada's equivalent of a 401K or high-yield savings account. So you have to learn the system. And then on top of everything Elizabeth just said, which I completely agree with, it really goes back to knowing your goals and your values. That's always what I want to emphasize with people, because they think that money is just something that they should be doing. And if they don't have a real why motivating these different actions, they're not gonna follow through on doing them. So think about, if you are investing in the stock market, or you're building your

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  emergency fund, or a vacation fund, what's the purpose behind that? And how can you get there over time? So it's knowing what you wanna do, having the right tools to get you there, and then seeing it through over the long term, and then pivoting when life happens and you end up having to use your emergency fund. But hopefully, you have that in place so you don't end up going into credit card debt. So adapting, working, realizing it's a long game, but that it doesn't have to consume your whole life or make you feel too stressed, because you're doing what you can do. You're controlling what you can't control.

• 1:07:36Speaker 03

  What Sean said was so key. So it's almost like, again, this is not your foundation, but it's almost like the tips I gave you are a foundation, but you start with the values. Because if you don't start with the values, for example, you might have a savings account, and you're like, well, I don't know how much to save in there, right? Or you have an investing account, and you're like, well, I don't know how much I need to save. But your values are kind of gonna guide how much you need to save for what goal.

• 1:07:59Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, guys.

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  I feel like everybody listening to this episode of Big Swings Only has everything they need to be wealthy in their own way. You know, this has been so great.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  You know, I'm sure that folks still have their own questions. So taking a page out of your book, Quame, I'm gonna say folks should send us their money questions.

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:17Speaker 02

  Smart Money, we run on people's financial questions. They can leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline, 901-730-6373, or just email us at [email protected]. Drop us a comment on Spotify or YouTube. Elizabeth is in there responding to comments. Sometimes her son is responding to comments on Spotify, so you never know what you get.

• 1:08:39Speaker 00

  That's so cool. You are so cool. Simone, we're taking notes here. This is great. So yes.

• 1:08:45Speaker 03

  You guys can send us a question, too. Quame, Simone, send us your questions.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  That actually would be really fun. We should be back on Smart Money to answer one of your financial questions, Quame.

• 1:08:53Speaker 00

  That'd be great. Listen, open invite. We had a blast. We had a blast. And so, this has been great, team. I loved speaking with you. Thank you for being part of our chosen Big Swings Only family. You know, we're all together now.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you for having us.

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  Any parting words before you? Peace out?

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  Well, I'm gonna ask you guys to play that plug over again. So check out NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. And I just want everyone to realize, again, money is a tool to create the life that you want. Get the resources and the knowledge to execute that for your life.

• 1:09:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I want to say, nothing is out of bounds. If you feel like you're not earning enough, everything feels impossible. I have gone, again, probably earning nine dollars an hour as, I don't know, an intern, zero savings, you know, to where I am now, having financial stability, growing my income exponentially, anything is possible. So don't give up on yourself. Don't tell yourself you're never gonna retire, and keep trying to start with what you have.

• 1:09:53Speaker 00

  Love it. Thank you both for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.