Why Qualified People Get Passed Over - Heather Spilsbury

You can be the most qualified person in the room and still get passed over. Heather Spilsbury, CEO of 50/50 Women on Boards, joins Kwame to talk about what it really takes to reach the top, all the way to a public company board. She explains why board seats are never posted, how to turn your experience into value others can see, and why talking about your wins isn’t bragging. She also shares her father’s motto, “keep moving forward,” and why she kept her son a secret at work for a whole year. If you’re going after something big, this one’s for you. Connect with Heather Spilsbury LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heatherspilsbury/ 50/50 Women on Boards Website: https://5050wob.com/ 50 Women to Watch for Boards: https://5050wob.com/program-overview/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/5050-women-on-boards Contact ANI ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What does it take to run a company? I know you think I'm talking about the CEO, but I'm not. I'm talking about the people behind the CEO, the people who can fire the CEO. What does it take to be on a board of a public company? Now, you might be saying, well, Kwame, I'm not trying to be on the board of a public company. Fair, but you are trying to do something big. And perception is going to have a big role in whether or not people see you as worthy of the opportunity that you're going for. Our guest today is Heather Spelsbury and her entire focus is helping women to get on the boards of publicly traded organizations. Now, you might be saying, hey Kwame, I'm not a woman. Should I listen to it? Yes, you should, because number one, this is important information that you can use as well for your big swings.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  And number two, allies and advocates are important. So this episode is a gem. Heather has been on the podcast before and she crushed it, so we had to bring her back. My friends, you are in for a treat. This is the story of Heather Spelsbury. Welcome to Big Swings Only. Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of granola free at granola.ai/kwame. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. And make sure to tell them that Kwame with Big Swings Only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 1:30Speaker 00

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• 1:40Speaker 00

  You're, you've been in my life so long that I forgot how we originally met. You know, there are these characters in your life where you're like, did you, did we start the show together or where did?

• 1:51Speaker 01

  So I guess I should confess it now, but I think I started listening to your podcast when I was still working at The Shepherd. I think at the start of that, that job, because you were, you've been on air for what, a decade now?

• 2:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, or more, more. And I just, you know, my, my role at that time was VP of Development and Marketing. And I just loved the way you talked about negotiation. And I remember just thinking, this is the best podcast I've ever heard, because it puts like, the most extreme situations, whittles it down to things that you can use in your everyday career. And, and I knew you were a lawyer and you had that background, but I also thought, this is what I do in my everyday life with clients. I have to pitch, I have to negotiate, I have to compromise. We all have to come to the table and, and like each other at the end of the day. And then to grow that relationship took a lot of negotiation.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  So I always say like, my superpower is really influencing people to do what I hope they will do. And in return, they, that I can give them back something too, and that we build that relationship from, from the ground up, starting there. And, and I, and I just listened to you. And then at one point, when I did switch over and took this role with what was then 2020 Women on Boards as the Chief Marketing Officer, I just reached out to you on LinkedIn. And I said, listen, I've been a huge fan forever. I would like to get you involved in some way, shape or form. We still need to figure out how we're going to do that Kwame. But I mean, essentially I sent you a note and you responded. And I remember like running to my husband and I'm like, he responded to my LinkedIn. This is crazy. I mean, I felt like a celebrity had reached back out to me.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  And you were so nice and so generous and we just had a really nice exchange. And you said you should come on the podcast. And I did a few, a few years ago, and I remember listening to it thinking, oh my gosh, I sound like a frantic, I felt like someone running a marathon. Cause I, I naturally speak fast, but I think I was so nervous that I was like on another level. And I thought, well, at least I did it. I did the podcast, but I don't think he'd ever asked me to come back again.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  And here we are, here we are. First of all, thank you for reminding me, this is, this is great. Fun fact, that's how Simone and I are together, you know?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, and now you see how I think about my team. I was like, that's why you see Simone and I are friends. Yeah, everybody knows that like, it's the business relationship, but no, these are my friends.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  So that's, that's really cool.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  I think that's how all business relationships work best. You know, you have to like the other person. I mean, to an extent, right? Otherwise it becomes very difficult to work with people and/or have people on your team if they don't know you. And that's an important part of, you know, I think any, any, any good team.

• 4:49Speaker 00

  For sure. Oh, I've got a funny story for you. This is early days of the podcast. Simone, I don't know if you even know this. So back, back in the, the old days, when I could not afford to do anything, I had to edit and do everything myself. And so I was just, I would do the podcast and then I would edit myself. The, the cadence at the beginning was, hey, everybody, you, you can get a podcast whenever I can get to it. I don't know how long, sometimes it's six weeks, sometimes it's four, whatever. But I remember when I was editing my podcast at the beginning, I was like, ugh, that's how I sound? That's my voice? Why do I breathe so much? What, why do I breathe so much?

• 5:34Speaker 00

  And I was editing out.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Every single breath. I'm like, Kwame, this is psychotic. What's wrong with you? But so many people have that relationship with their voice where they hear it and they're like, who is this person?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. I mean, even right now, just having the, the earplugs thing, you know, you can hear yourself a little bit differently. And I just think, ooh.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  It's, but just, it's nice to know that everybody has that exact same insecurity. So technically I guess everybody sounds weird.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  I would think radio people did it, you know? I mean, I would think they would love listening to themselves and that's why they enjoy speaking, but maybe not. Maybe that's not it, but I always.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Maybe they're the rare few, but you love it like the old school radio boys. And now we're tuned into Radio Sick. That's not how, could you imagine if the person spoke like that?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Someone asked me recently if I was a news anchor. I said, why? And they said, oh, because you, you talk like one.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  It's like, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  I know, I thought, is that a compliment? I'm not sure.

• 6:42Speaker 00

  I never got anchor vibes from you.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  I had, I got boss vibes from you.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so nice.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. Speaking of bosses, that, isn't that what you're doing now? You're, you've, you run a boss factory.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  We, we do. 5050 Women on Boards is a global 501(c)(3) nonprofit. And I was fortunate enough to join the organization six years ago during the height of the pandemic. I was hired as the Chief Marketing Officer. And really I tell this story all the time. I thought I was going to be here for two years, you know, because I, I was thinking about it as a brand. And that was my life's work was working on brands and making them successful and, you know, hopefully continuing to work with them or then flipping them and moving on. And, and so I thought, okay, I'll be here two years and then I'll, I'll go on to my next venture. And the first two years were pretty incredible. We, you know, we did a lot of great work. I think it, you know, a lot of things were in support of that, including the death of

• 7:39Speaker 01

  George Floyd, which also enhanced people's sort of radar of like, how do we continue to make a difference within businesses and become more inclusive and really think about this from a different perspective. And so we had a really good run from 2020 to 2022. And, and then I, you know, we're, we're, we're a network of volunteers. So we're not a membership organization. And I started to work more closely with the volunteers and, and really get to know them. And between 21 and 2022, my mindset really changed. You know, we're, we were, we're a people business. We're, we're in the business of making sure that people feel supported in their careers and their board journeys, whatever that might be. And that really struck me as like a different chord.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  And I felt like, you know, I was looking for something with a lot of impact and where I felt like I was also making an impact. But what I realized was.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  These are individuals that are searching for some support in their, in their business ecosystem. And so this is, this is bigger than anything I could have ever imagined. And how do you, how do you work towards helping support these individuals in the most effective way? And that sort of changed the way I looked at the organization, the way I looked at my role in particular. I then moved into the COO role and today I sit as the CEO. But it is, it's been a journey for me personally and professionally, which I put a lot of,

• 9:08Speaker 01

  I just, I guess gratitude, because I don't think, I don't know how to say this without getting teary eyed, but I don't, I don't know where I'd be if I wouldn't have found this organization. I think I would have been still working and still, you know, working for brands and flipping them. But I don't think I would have got what I've received out of, out of this position that has been so rewarding in so many ways.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  That is beautiful. It's, it's so interesting how many people have these, you, you just see them at this point. And then you say, oh, this person was born for this, obviously, right? But you go back just a few years, this was not the obvious conclusion. Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so true.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. So tell us more. What changed in your mind that, that really led you to, to say, oh, wow, I, I kind of accidentally stumbled upon my life mission?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, a lot of it had to do with our former CEO too, Betsy Burkman-Carrera. You know, she's made this her life's work. She was really an impressive leader. She took the organization to the level that I founded at. And, you know, it, it was inspiring to see her and so many others that were volunteering for the organization as well, just committing their time to this effort in their own regions. You know, we have 20 locations across the US and then six international cities. And, and these are individuals that are volunteering their time to ensure that, to ensure that our regional impact and awareness is apparent

• 10:42Speaker 01

  and that they're putting on events and that they're supporting the organization in that way. And that to me speaks volumes into what we're doing here as an organization. So, you know, to answer that question, I think it's, it's interesting because sometimes you don't know where your career will lead you, but you sort of had to have faith that it's leading you in the right direction. You know, I, I took a chance switching from private to nonprofit work. And I knew it was gonna, it was gonna be something that would change my career, either for the better or for the worse, but I felt that it was the right time to do it. And I remember contemplating over it, but thinking, I, I can do it now because I can always go back and decide what else I want to do later when I grow up.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  But, you know, it's a, it's an interesting, it's an interesting transition that I think a lot of people find themselves in. And maybe it just happens naturally as you reach a certain point in your career where you think about what am I doing really to make this world a better place? While also supporting yourself and, you know, building your career at the same time.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Yes. And that's, and that's the key, right? How can I help people have an impact and not, you know, lose everything in the process?

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, because you have to be realistic at the same time.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. No, this, this is really interesting because the, there's, it's been a journey and it's had lots of twists and turns for you. And you're very clear on your purpose. But for you, when you think about not just the good times, but the setbacks, the hard times, how do you keep on persevering and moving toward that purpose when times are tough?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great question. When I joined the organization, it was the height of the pandemic. And so that was one hurdle that I thought personally and professionally would be really interesting to get through. You know, to ensure that we could turn this organization around and that it could continue functioning within the environment, because previously everything had been done in person. So it, and, and there wasn't a lot of infrastructure. And so it was, it was a building. And so that was really exciting for me. It's, it's one of the, one of the ways that I've built my career is sort of building clients and ensuring that they're successful.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  And again, I looked at it from that perspective and thought, okay, if I can get through this and turn this around and really build something better than it was before, then that would be a great milestone, not only for me, but for the organization. And, and now we're facing all this, it's a different, it's a different,

• 13:27Speaker 01

  I hate to call it a crisis, but it's a, it's a, it's a different hurdle, right? We have pushback on D E and I, we have, you know, an administration that doesn't believe in

• 13:39Speaker 01

  any of the programs that were, you know, initially part of a corporation's inclusivity programs or affinity programs. And so that's been really interesting to watch some of that go from we're building this to dismantling it.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  And then our organization sort of being at the center of that and saying, we're still here to support people who are looking for ways to advance in their board journey and career. And still working with a lot of corporations that really believe that that is important, you know, to include people and to ensure that they're rising up within the organization and beyond that. So it's been an interesting hurdle. But what I will say is that it also, to me, has

• 14:28Speaker 01

  created a lot of insight into which corporations are really doing it for the right reasons. One, because they believe in it and it's their values and it's always been part of their business. And that has been carved out and that was carved out pretty quickly when all of this started to occur. And without making it too political, you know, it, it really is something that we've seen take sort of a backseat and a backtrack and, and companies had to almost change a lot of their messaging in order to keep some of the contracts that they currently have. And, and that's sort of been an interesting thing to sort of watch unfold. But again, it, the percentages and the percentages backtracking from 30%,

• 15:10Speaker 01

  which was the height of what we got to in 2024, to now 29% and seeing that continue to fall, isn't just about women securing board seats. It's really about what are the opportunities out there for individuals? And how are they going to continue moving forward, knowing that there has been some decline when it impacts everybody? And it doesn't just impact those that are searching for a board seat. It also impacts those that are trying to get from a manager position to director, to so on and so forth, into the C-suite. And so we want to make sure that we keep moving that in the right direction. So that all said, it is just about leading with your values. You know, we've also seen some nonprofits change the way that they

• 15:55Speaker 01

  are putting messaging out there, changing their name, et cetera. And we never did that, you know, this is our mission. We're 50 50 women on boards. It doesn't mean we're excluding men. It means that we're trying to include women, which is the lowest totem pole of what we're talking about when we're talking about inclusive, inclusive, you know, governance levels and, and leadership levels. You know, gender is like

• 16:18Speaker 01

  the lowest bar and then you go up from there, right? Then women, then you can include people of color. I mean, it just, that's the sort of the trajectory that this goes in. And so if we can't get to gender equality, then how are we going to get to anything else? And so we have stayed true in, in our messaging. We've stayed grounded in who we've, who we are. And in some cases, that means that we don't have the dollars that we used to have. And in some cases, it means that we've secured other dollars to be able to supplement for that. But that is the reality of the situation. And what you have to ensure is that, one, your entire team is behind the mission and that they understand the mission and that they are clear on the things that you're trying to achieve.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  And then moving forward in that direction with a lot of conviction sometimes means that you, you don't get the things that you thought you would get, or you don't get the success that you thought you'd continue to have. But that's okay, you know, because you know that the tide will change. And as long as you keep moving in the right direction for the right reasons and having the right conversations with the right corporations, then this will move in the right direction.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Yes. No, very well said. And I know you have a position where you need to be very mindful of the way that you articulate things.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 00

  So let me, let me clarify a couple of things. So, and tell me if, maybe you could just blink twice if it was helpful. So essentially what you're saying is with a lot of organizations and corporations, they made these, these statements about what they would do when it came to diversity, equity and inclusion. We're going to do this and that and this. Then once the administration changed, they said, okay, our lives will become significantly worse if we don't get on board. And if we, so we're going to change our values essentially. And some organizations went as far as to change their name to say, okay, you know what? We are accepting. So hypothetically, if you would have taken that route, you would have been 20 20 or 50 50 humans on boards.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  We just want to help general humans get further than that's it, everybody, right? And that, as you can see, though, an admirable organization, humans are great. I know a few, few, few humans. It kind of takes away from the specificity of the problem that you were trying to solve.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yep. That is exactly it. A hundred percent. And it, you know, and it's not easy sometimes to keep moving forward in, in that way. You know, there's a lot of assumptions that are made or, you know, risk that, you know, is part of the equation that you have to think about as an organization. But then ultimately, then at the day, you do have to stay grounded in what the mission is and ensure that you're preparing for those risks, should they occur or should they happen. But you know, you have to, I believe that we had to stay who we are, which we did. And I'm very proud of that.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you should be. I mean, I think one of the things when people, there might be people listening, I'm trying to snipe some thoughts from the crowd. So there might be some people saying, well, what real pressure can the government put on you to to change your values as an organization? I think a lot of people would be very surprised at how many private institutions have a significant amount of their money coming from the government? And how much latitude the government has on pulling contracts? Because there's always going to be some organization that says, hey, listen, we'll play ball. We'll take that money just instantly. And so the, and this is a real significant challenge. I know it's a challenge that I'm obviously not going to name names.

• 19:54Speaker 00

  I will say whatever I want to accept this. I have had some clients that have had to change some of their, the directionality of their dollars because they, a hidden client of theirs is the government. And it can be really surprising sometimes. And so you were bold enough to stay true to your mission, your values and everything. And that's very admirable. For the people who were not bold enough to do so, how did you survive? Because they changed course because they didn't think they could.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  I think they're still surviving as well. You know, it's interesting when we're talking about other nonprofits in this space, or even other companies who have done some of that, that those changes are even in about face, especially for corporations. I think they're still surviving. The question is, how supportive are their stakeholders and shareholders? And in some cases in corporations, that's the reason that they did do an about face is because they needed to adhere to what the shareholders and their stakeholders wanted, right? To your point about having government contracts and things that could impact the business. I think from a consumer perspective, I think there's been backlash on some of those corporations that have done that. And you can see it, you know?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  And I think there's others that have done a really great job. I always use Alpha as an example because they're also a great partner of ours. But Tarang, the CEO, has done a really fantastic job of saying, no, this is who we are as a brand. And if you need any ROI behind why we, why we have these inclusivity programs and processes, and why we are doing a program like Change the Board Game is because, is why we're successful. And so they've just, they've just said, no, we're continuing to go down this, this road. Mastercard's another great example of that, also a sponsor of ours. So I just want to be clear about that. But they are another example of a corporation who has said, this is, that we're a global organization. This is part of our makeup.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  And it is a return on investment that the shareholders got behind. And so they continue to move in the right direction. And there's many others. But I think when we look at those that have shifted or made changes, you can see it. I mean, you see it sometimes in the stock numbers. Sometimes you see it in the narrative that's being built around them. And that's something you never want to have happen. You want to make sure that you own that narrative. And that's very clear. You know, I, I, I target as one of those, those companies, again, that, you know, they had so many programs that were part of their D E and I initiative. And in some cases, they reverted on those. And in other cases, they've just made some poor decisions, I think, that have led to some backlash from consumers, and rightfully so.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  So I think they're still standing. I just think that the perception has changed. And that is always something that you have to think about from a long-term perspective is how do you then change that narrative in the future?

• 22:49Speaker 00

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• 23:33Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings only. That's the best way to support the show. Try this: pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem. Because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes, and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later.

• 24:18Speaker 00

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• 24:48Speaker 01

  Once the story is different. So you don't want to be flip-flopping. Because that seems odd.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  It seems, it seems odd. It seems like a choice like that many people are making. You know, you wear different masks every four years.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Right. Which doesn't make any sense, you know? And at this point, I also think that we've gone so far on both sides, right? And again, not to get too political, but we've gone so far to the extreme that I, that I hope that people are starting to go, well, wait a second. We're all somewhere in here. There's, you know, and whatever it might be, from an economic standpoint, some people, you know, consider themselves more Republican. From a, you know, from a societal standpoint, some people are more Democratic. And I think all of us are somewhere in this middle ground where now we're sort of seeing this play out.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  And, and maybe I'm hoping that companies and organizations and nonprofits are going, well, wait, like, we've got to just keep doing the right thing. That's right for the organization, that's right for the company, that's right for employees, stakeholders, shareholders, customers, everybody that's involved. So that's where you hope that that ends up leading. But it's, you know, it's been a tough environment.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it, no doubt, no doubt. And let's say hypothetically, if there's, if, if you're talking to me, and I am a person who has a ruthlessly capitalistic mindset, the only thing that matters is shareholder return. Why should I care at all about gender equality and representation of women on boards?

• 26:34Speaker 01

  I think you have to care about it because it naturally impacts the people that you're employing, you know, and those that are, that are moving up within the leadership ranks. And I think you have to think about it from a perspective of, if we're not including women in the boardroom, then it's very difficult to include other people in the boardroom too, that could have a different perspective, a different outlook. And we're talking about so many different types of individuals you could search for for a board candidate. And sometimes we're limited to, let's just find a CEO that's sitting in their seat right

• 27:16Speaker 01

  now, who can help support the board, or a CFO sitting in that seat. And generally, the makeup of sitting CEOs are white males. It's, it's just a fact. And so if that's your only talent pool that you're pulling from, then boards become very insular, and it becomes very much of tapping who you know. And we've been there before. And then we've gone to the other extreme where we've been tapping other individuals who...

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Can add different perspectives and have, you know, are from different backgrounds and different expertise, et cetera. It's the whole gamut, right, of what you're looking for when you're searching for talent. So it impacts everybody. It impacts how women move forward in their careers and impacts who you employ. It impacts who's looking at your company and wanting to get hired and impacts the talent that you retain. I think that's also really important because if you're changing or you're doing something different, you're only invested in what's working from an economic standpoint, you're going to lose a lot of people that way because they won't feel supported in their roles.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Right, right. Makes a lot of sense. So I recognize as we're having these, the earlier part of the conversation, I said, oh, we started without addressing the core underlying assumption. So wanted to make sure we got that out. And this is good. And also, I think it's important to approach this from a societal perspective, a structural perspective, because those are the things that will have an outsized impact on the outcomes that we see. And so it's hard to outperform your environment in many cases. So I always want to make sure that we start in those types of, I want to make sure that we set the scene effectively. Because, tell

• 29:05Speaker 00

  me if this resonates at all with you. I had, oh, Simone, remind me, is the name Kate Eberly Walker, who was on the podcast a while back, we're talking about salary negotiation, and she brought up a really good point. She said, with her book on making sure that you can get what it is that you deserve, what you deserve, she did not want to approach it from the perspective of, quote, fixing women, where we say, oh, the reason why you're in this bad position is because you don't do this, you don't do that, et cetera, et cetera. So before we get into any individual activity, I wanted to make sure that we address the

• 29:44Speaker 00

  structural side first. So that was my mentality. I don't know. Have you, tell me, does that resonate? Have you seen well-meaning people kind of go down that kind of fixing women type of approach?

• 29:59Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think that's just been a generalization for most women in their careers. You know, you're not, you're not ready yet. You know, you don't have the leadership qualities. You don't present yourself as a leader. There's different phrases that I think are, that we've all heard some, somewhere along the way, you know, especially when we're asking for a raise or a promotion. And usually, as, and I, I'm sure this happens to men too, but we have to ask for the promotion. We have to ask for the raise. It's not just hand it to us. It's not like, oh, you've done a great job. Now I'm going to move you, you know, to X, Y, Z role. Usually, you've got to work for it. You've got to take on an additional

• 30:41Speaker 01

  project. You've got to, you know, you've got to stretch yourself. And that's always what we've just been used to. Like, you're gonna, you're gonna take a stretch role and, you know, they're gonna see if you actually perform, and then they'll decide. So I do believe in that, because I think that, I think we put a lot of emphasis on gender when equally, there, there's amazing talent. There's, there's, you know, incredibly smart men, incredibly smart women who have built these careers and know their stuff, that they'll make their way there. But sometimes it's a bit different for women, I think, and things that we've heard, you know, and it's just been ingrained in, in business and culture. And just something

• 31:23Speaker 01

  we just have to be cognizant of, you know, and sometimes you don't even realize it's happening as you're moving forward in your career.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly. That's, because I wanted to make sure we addressed this before we transition into things people can do to be successful. Because I didn't, I didn't want somebody to listen to this and say, oh, it's women's fault. They just need to do this. No, no, no, no, no. We got this, this whole half hour, addressing the earlier part. So I'm glad. So when you think about your life, and you think about the people that you've seen succeed and get to that board level, which is the, the goal of your organization, what are the qualities that lead people to, to rise to the top?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great question. You know, and it's not easy, especially when you're securing a public company board seat. So I don't want to, I don't want to be passive about it and say that everybody can do it, because not everybody can. There is a certain type of expertise and experience that boards are searching for. You know, they, they want, it depends also on the board's makeup and matrix and what talent they're searching for at that time. But for the most part, these are C-suite level executives at public companies who have spent their career building and developing relationships and networks and, and usually growing an organization. It's a lot about growth and who you know. And if you, if you've specifically done mergers and acquisitions in your lifetime, that's

• 32:50Speaker 01

  also credible. But you've got to know how to read a P and L. I mean, you have to have a financial acumen. Usually, you know, they want somebody who's a qualified expert, you know, qualified financial expert, a QFE. And that's really important because you, you have a fiduciary responsibility to the board. So when boards are searching for talent, those are the, those are the key things. Then other things might also help add value, value, whether you're, you know, an expert in technology, cybersecurity, AI, et cetera. Those are all great expertise to have. But we talk about talent a lot, especially with our, our friends of our organizations and things like this. And Joe Heard and a couple of others have always said, you know, it's like a T shape. Think of it as a T shape.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  You got to go sort of deep in your expertise, but then you have to look at the organization from a whole, which is why a lot of times CEOs are tapped for these positions, because that's the role that they've been playing. They have a certain expertise that they bring to the organization, but they're also looking at it from wider lens and going, how do we continue moving forward in the right direction? How are we operating? How are we creating opportunity for the, for the enterprise, but also avoiding risk? And so those are crucial, crucial questions and things that happen within the board setting. And then there's a lot of other things that take place too, from a policy standpoint, bylaws, charters, committees, et cetera. So everybody's job on the board is to hire and fire the CEO,

• 34:14Speaker 01

  to make sure that they're doing the right job for the enterprise in that specific moment. And five years from now, who else will succeed, or longer, depending on that current CEO? Who's going to be in succession of that CEO? And are we building the right talent and developing the right talent for that role? So it's, it's a big job. You know, you've got legal implications that you have to think about too, when you're taking on the role. Typically, the enterprise will have D and O insurance, and you also usually are protected as well under your own, if you've, if you've served on one or two boards. But it is work, you know, and I think especially now, there's more work being done on boards. It, it used to be, oh, I'm going to sit on the board and I'll just listen to, you know,

• 35:00Speaker 01

  the management team and also the CEO give their presentations and give some advice and be advisors for them. And maybe there's one or two crises that take place while my tenure serving on this board. And now it's incredibly difficult. You know, I think a crisis happens almost every day and, and boards are really part of that process of determining, you know, what, what gets escalated, what doesn't, what sits with management, what doesn't. And especially in times like this where there's a lot of disruption. I mean, not only from technology and AI, but also from supply chain and tariffs. You know, I think there's, there's a lot more meetings that are happening and, and board directors who are really putting in the time to be able to serve that organization in the right

• 35:43Speaker 01

  capacity. So to answer your question, they need to be C-suite executives, really, that have, that have a full, full life career that they could say and pinpoint, these are the things that I've done that would add value to the board. And it's, a lot of what we talk about too, is how you flip the script. Your operational expertise has to get flipped into that board value, which is really important. Because if you don't know how to do that or articulate that, then that's a, that's sort of a red flag of this person's not ready yet.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  Yep. That makes a lot of sense. It's, and that's very helpful, because for a lot of folks, it almost seems as though the path to that, that position is shrouded in secrecy. How does one?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  It is. It is. Because the recruitment process isn't open. You know, it's not something you apply for. There's different ways that a board director gets selected. It's through your network. It's through a recruitment firm. It's through somebody knowing you on the board. And sometimes all three of those things need to happen at the same time for you to get considered. And then, once you're in that pool of getting considered, then you go through interview process, and then one person gets selected for whatever reasons. And, and part of that too is culture. Do you fit in with the current culture of the board? And that can also be something that sways that decision as well. You know, how well are you going to work with others and collaborate with the other individuals on the board? And

• 37:11Speaker 01

  do people, you know, can they sit at the table and work with you?

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Well, to that point, though, if we're having issues with diversity on boards, how does one prove that they can play well with others at that level if nobody looks like them at the table?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  It's a great, it's a great question. I think that's what started to change in 2020, is when people started to look outside of their own network and really think about the talent that they were pulling into their boards, that became sort of the open door to say, let's, let's do that search and search for other talent and bring on women, et cetera. And by the time I joined this organization, I just want to be clear, women held 19% of public company board seats. And now we're at 29. So that's a huge leap from 2020 to 2026, and, and a good, and a good one. And at one point, it was 30%. But

• 38:07Speaker 01

  In addition to women, you know, people of color have also gained a lot of seats. And, and I think it's the, the boards have decided to do that and, and make those changes. Someone was the one and only at one point, but what happens with diversity is if you bring a woman or a person of color, they think about the board makeup more intentionally than others. And that's a good thing. And so then you get, you know, additional people to serve on the board. And not every board didn't have women, you know, but there was a majority of the boards that didn't. So, uh, you know, it is, it is sort of taking that chance. So sometimes it can be intimidating to be the one and only, but I think if you're offered

• 38:47Speaker 01

  that position and the culture feels right and you can, you can make that inroad indifference and secure that first seat for you, I always say, take it. Because a lot of us have been in that seat, you know, the one and only seat. And it's not easy sometimes, but sometimes it can be really great. And you find that the other leaders in the room actually do want to bring more talent on. They've just never done it before. And so you have to drive that, that, you know, drive that initiative and ensure if you're on the NOM Gov Committee or if you're chairing the NOM Gov Committee, that you're being intentional about where you're searching for talent.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  Yep. Yep. And let's kind of widen our aperture for a bit here. Because, because the answer to this question is going to be similar to the answer to the question as it relates to board members too. So based on what you've seen, what differentiates somebody, what's, what's the differentiator between somebody who knows what they need to do and is competent and capable enough to do the job and the narrative associated with whether or not they can do it? Because there are going to be people who are certainly good enough, but people look at them and say, oh, no, I don't, I don't think they're ready. Versus somebody who might not be good enough, but then they are able to present differently

• 40:09Speaker 00

  and create a stronger narrative. What, can you help us to, to kind of reconcile these differences here?

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think that's the, the confidence piece though, that has to land when you're having those conversations about why you should be on the board. If you're interviewing, there's, there's a lot of studies out there too, Kwame, about how women interview versus how men interview. Um, which is really interesting and, and it's psychological sometimes, but it's also, I think, how we're trained to talk about ourselves. And this is, you know, just something that happens, I think. And also if you come from a diverse background like myself, you know, my parents are from El Salvador, I was always told, you know, just put your head down, work really hard,

• 40:59Speaker 01

  you know, be humble about what you're doing and don't talk about yourself in that way. And it's like, okay. And you, and you just, you just do that because you, you think that's going to get you there. And yes, it will get you far, but I think you do have to tell people, remind people, put your head up, you've got to talk about yourself and you have to be confident. And, and it happens, right? We see it in workplaces where someone else deserves a job, but somebody else has secured it because of the way they presented themselves in that interview. Same thing happens with board searches. The way you present yourself and articulate your expertise and experience makes a huge difference. If someone else can do that better and align it with the enterprise and the board value,

• 41:44Speaker 01

  then yes, they might have a leg up in securing that seat over you, even though you, your qualifications might be better.

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Yes. Yes. Okay, good. You're picking up what I was putting down.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  Because that's, that's the thing, because, you know, I'm a child of immigrants too. It was always, you have to work twice as hard to get the same recognition. And I even get family members today saying, oh, you don't need to share everything online. You don't need to live loud. I'm like, I'm not loud. Just, it's hard to be a, a thought leader if I'm not sharing my thoughts publicly. It's like, there's always a, this, this concern is like, shh, shh, shh, just, just do your job, just do your job. I'm like, that, what? But the, but the loud person over there who's not doing their job is getting all the opportunity. It's, and so it's, it is a really, I feel like there's a lot of unlearning that has to happen when it comes to being promotional. Can you speak a little bit more to that?

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Because I think that's really interesting because perception is reality.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  And we think that people are going to be able to see, oh, objectively, they have done this much work, they have worked these many hours and have produced X, Y, Z. But if somebody comes in, super flashy and confident, they're like, I like his charisma. And then they get the job.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. And, and that happens. I, I, you know, it's so funny that you say perception's reality because I was told that, I think, five, six years ago, and I remember thinking, I hate, I hate that term because sometimes it's not reality, but it, but it is. As I've gotten older, I'm like, oh yes, it is, it is reality. That's unfortunate. Um, because you could, you know, and it's, it's tough too in leadership roles because it's a fine line of, yes, promoting yourself and, and being a thought leader and, um, and also being humble about it and being authentic around it too, I think is really important.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  You know, I think there's, um, there's a lot of misconceptions, I think, too, about leadership in general and how people should lead or, or maybe how they were trained to lead or what makes a leader. And, and you know, it's funny because sitting in this role, I almost feel as if my leadership is to make sure that other people are happy in their role, that they feel equipped and empowered to do that role. Um, you know, that, uh, people are working together, that we're bringing in the right talent to support what the organization needs, whichever organization I've ever worked at, but in particular at 5050.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Because they're really running the show. You know, as CEO, you have to step back and you can't get involved in a lot of the day to day as much as you want to. I mean, you say in tune with it and what's happening with it, but it is a distinction between your previous role and stepping into this role. And this year has been an interesting one because it is, um, a transition year for the organization and myself to go, I have to also make some changes in the way that I work, which is hard for someone who's always put their head down and worked, worked, worked, you know? Um, and delegating that responsibility and leaving it is a transition in, in one's own career. But setting people up for success, I think, is what you do as a leader.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  And so that, it's a, it's a fine line. I don't even know if I'm answering that question correctly, but I, I think going back to what you were essentially asking was, it's, it's tough, you know? I, I mean, I think you have to, you have to find your people too. There are people that are looking for, let's say, a board director like you, that maybe does interview the way you interview. And so that's okay if that's, that's how you present yourself, as long as you're not leaving anything on the table, as long as you're expressing your board value. I, I would say, don't change yourself as a person. Like if you're not the person that's loud and wants to be loud, don't do that.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  But, but, but find ways to talk about your work and amplify it, um, that works for you. Because it's also important when people are searching for candidates. I will say the first place they go to is LinkedIn. If they get a candidate on their, on the, you know, on their list, they're going to go to LinkedIn, they're going to figure out, is this person's career match in line with their board profile? You know, where has this person been? How influential are they? What's their network look like? And that's part of the gig.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  Exactly. No, you're, you're absolutely right. And I think you can be self-promotional while still being humble. Because for me, the way that I define humility is accuracy. If I understate what it is that I can do, then I'm not being humble, I'm being deceitful. If I'm, if I am, if I genuinely believe I'm the best to do something and I say, you know what, I don't think it, you know, I think if you go in any direction, you'll be fine, then that's a lie. That's not humility, that's not virtue. You know? And so if you believe that you are really good at what you're doing and you have the receipts to prove it, just say, yeah, I believe that I am more than qualified to do this because if you look at my track record, I did this, I did that, I did this, and this is the feedback I received. So I do believe that I can handle this.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  And that is just stating it confidently and humbly while being accurate. It, it becomes arrogance when you are doing it in a way that is inaccurate. That's the first thing. And doing it in a way that unnecessarily subordinates other people to you. So you're doing it for the sake of your own, uh, grandiosity and self-inflation and not for any productive, pro-social purpose. And so for the people who are, who have that concern, ooh, I don't want to be self-promotional, I don't want to be arrogant. If you have that thought in your head, you're not going to be. You're not going to be.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Right. Single biggest myth about how women get on boards is that a seat was opened up for them.

• 47:51Speaker 00

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• 49:49Speaker 01

  I think a lot of times, there was narrative around, especially between 2020 and 2023, that boards were increasing the size of their board to be able to add women. And yes, some did that, but I also think they did that because they have... Again, it's very difficult to get off and on a public company board. So if you have a specific tenure, then adding a seat makes a lot of sense. And so if they were trying to diversify their board and adding a seat meant adding a woman, they did that, and I think that that was important. And it showcased that they were being inclusive, but it doesn't mean that that's why they secured that seat. Everybody who sits on a board has the merit to sit on a board. The issue is that they don't have the access.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Right, right. That's such a great point, because it's the assumption of a lack of credibility, right? That is so good. That is so good. Like, there are only nine possible humans on the entire planet who could take this position. That's a great point. Yep. Okay. So one of your mottos is keep moving forward. So can you tell us about how holding on to that was powerful for you and motivating for you in a time where it was really difficult?

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, that comes from my father. I don't even know if he knows this, but he would always say, you know, anytime I was down, or something didn't work out the right way, or I was upset about something, and I'm a pretty emotional human being. I just, I know that about myself. I'm very self-aware. Like, things really impact me. If something is happening, like, it usually takes me down, but I have to sort of... I have to pull myself out of that, especially as an adult and for people who you're responsible for, like my children. So it has just been my motto. He'd always say to me, "Keep moving forward." Adelante, Heather, he'd say, like, "Keep going, keep going." And so I've just always thought that's the best way for me to live my life, is to keep moving forward.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  That doesn't mean running over people or dismissing something that happened. It just means, how do we move from here to here? Because we can't go backwards, and we can't change something. And so how do you progress forward? And how do you continue moving yourself and others in the right direction?

• 52:05Speaker 00

  I love that. Great. What would you tell the version of yourself who hid her baby at work?

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, I did do this. And this was 2008, so this was not, you know, a long time ago. I mean, it is for some people listening out there, but I didn't tell anyone. So here's the thing. I left the Recording Academy after five and a half years, and I wanted to change my career and really go into PR and marketing. And a great friend of mine, Ron Roker, knew the regional West Coast manager of Edelman at the time, which was Gail Becker. She now runs Collie Power. She also led Edelman through major transitions. She was incredible. He was like, "Gail's my friend, I'm gonna reach out to her." He did me a solid and did that, and she just wrote me back and said, "Any friend of Ron is a friend of mine."

• 52:56Speaker 01

  So I was 30, almost 30, on the verge of being 30, changing my entire career and going into PR and marketing. And everybody that was working there, especially in my role as an account executive, which was much younger, you know, probably five, six years younger. And some of those that were in senior roles were even younger than me. And so I just knew that if I had shared that information, especially the way that we worked back then, which was around the clock, that I would get passed up for certain responsibilities and opportunities. So for a year, I didn't say anything. And then finally, somebody saw something on my phone and said, "Well, who's that?" And I said, "Oh, that's my son." And I had become friends with her, and she said, "You have a kid?"

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Because I also looked really young. And, you know, and so it just became this, "What? Why didn't you say anything?" And, you know, and it helped me establish myself at Edelman for the first year, and it gave me more confidence to then share later. But I did feel that I couldn't share it immediately, because I didn't want to get looked over.

• 54:05Speaker 00

  Wow. See, I think especially for many men out there, that's something that they can't really relate to.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, because men are seen as equipped and wonderful for having children and leaving early to help support them, whereas women are viewed as, "Oh, they have other responsibilities, maybe they can't do the job." It's just a perception.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  Right, right. No, that's true. That is true. Okay. Last one. Last one. So we want 50/50 board representation. And now the question is, is that more of a moral case or more of a business case?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Definitely a business case. You need different perspectives in the room. And I think when we talk about 50/50, you know, not every board is gonna have quality across the board. That's sometimes that's tough. But we open the aperture in the conversation around gender, meaning, have you thought about your board in a different way? Thinking about the type of talent that you're bringing in? And if you want to be successful, I think you have to have different perspectives, expertise, diversity of thought, diversity of gender, sex, all of it, right? And it's everything that's part of the equation.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  The way that I look at a situation might be very different than another person who's been through a different experience, you know, or has had a different upbringing. And because their qualifications have gotten them on the board, yes, but then their perspective and their life experience also comes into play, which is really important, especially when you're leading diverse companies with different stakeholders and customers and employees, et cetera. And that is always eye-opening to me, because even on our own board, you hear conversations or people sharing their opinion on something, or have you considered XYZ? And it opens your mind up to a whole different range of opportunity and thought and ways to view things. And so it's a business case.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  It's why wouldn't you want the most diverse perspective around the table to be able to get the best results? And if you have everybody that's like you, or that's a yes person, then that's a problem.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:31Speaker 01

  And it's in the numbers, you know?

• 56:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. Let's go into this. So lightning round over officially, because now we have to go deeper. And then Simone, I'll bring you in here too. Because I love your answer. I love your answer. And I think a lot of other people who are pushing toward the same outcome, when people hear them, it often sounds more morality-based.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 56:54Speaker 00

  And thinking about it from the lens of persuasion, I feel like a moral case is very persuasive to people who already agree with you. And the business case that you made is much more persuasive to people who have shareholder returns to be mindful of. So within the ranks of your organization and the movement in general, how do you all have the conversation about how to communicate this externally? So people understand that this is a business case versus a moral case?

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's in the data. You know, the companies that have three or more women on their boards or gender-balanced boards tend to have more market capital. They perform better. You see it in the numbers. And so we report on that on an annual basis, and it's in our new gender diversity index report that went out on Tuesday. So it's there, you know? It's apparent that those are the companies that are performing best. And data, I think, speaks for itself, right? We always look at data first to tell that story and the business case around it. I think the other piece of it too is that, again, going back to the qualifications that it takes to serve on a board, especially a public company board and large private boards, they're looking for people who have built a career, a substantial career.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  So you're never gonna get a board seat because you're not qualified. You need to be qualified. So if you're looking for qualified talent, it exists everywhere. It's not just in a particular... Gender, it's not in a particular race. It's everywhere. It's across the board. There's talent, there's incredible talent. And so if you're not opening up the aperture to find that talent, then you're doing yourself a disservice to two sits around the table. And I think companies that have thought about that from a global standpoint, again, perform better because they, they, they need that perspective sitting around the table. And so I would go back to one, the, the data. You know, what does the data say? And, and why is this a business case? And the business case is in the performance of the company and its shareholders.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  And ensuring that talent is, is around the room. And again, you know, making sure that people have an opportunity to do so. Because if you have the qualifications, Kwame, to serve on a board, why should you get overlooked?

• 59:09Speaker 00

  Right. No, I agree.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, we're not asking you to put talent on the board that isn't equipped. We're just saying, look at all the talent that is equipped out there. And have you thought about looking outside of your own network? Or your own, you know, where you, where you just live and work?

• 59:30Speaker 00

  Right. No, that, it makes a lot of sense because I'm, I'm with you on the business case for diversity. I'm thinking, and this is just me putting on my, my negotiation consultant hat now too. I'm thinking about how do we make it in a way that conveyed this in a way that people really move? So think about the cultural zeitgeist. A lot of times people do things because other people are doing things. And they're like, listen, I don't know why I'm doing this, but I don't want to look dumb. So I'm going to do it. And a lot of times that leads them to make bad decisions. Insert reference to, you know what? Not going to take my shot, not going to shoot my shot. We don't need to, we don't need to shoot shots here. But anyways, so think about this. If we're watching a, if we're seeing the, a team being built for the NBA,

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  we understand, you don't need to understand basketball very well to know that people need to be tall to play in the NBA. But there are certain positions where you can be smaller, certain positions where you're going to be bigger. You have like a 12-team roster. If we see a team, put together a team of 100% short guards, then we'd be like, that's a dumb decision. Like it's, you're not morally incorrect for that, but that like, you seem to be incompetent in what you're doing. Because why in the world would you think this works? Versus kind of saying, this is unfair. You, you see what I'm saying? I, I feel like for the GM, they would be like, listen, people will crush me if I've got a team of 5'11" guards. I need to have some big guys here. You see?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's such a great analogy. I, I mean, it, it really simplifies what we're saying here. You can't operate like that. That's not, that's not, you won't be successful.

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think, I do a lot of trainings for our procurement organizations. This is, hopefully no procurement organizations are listening because this one is a bit of a proprietary move. It's not a finishing move, but it chips away. So sometimes when there's like, like today, there, there's tariff, there, there are a lot of tariffs, there's a lot of global instability. Fuel prices are going up. That legitimately hits a lot of companies. And as a result, they say, hey, listen, we need to up the price. And then for a lot of companies, they look at the news and they're like, hey, listen, guys, I think we can pretend like this hurts us too. And we can get this big organization to up their price.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  And they, and so a lot of times procurement people feel like they're in a bind because they're saying, okay, my vendor says they, it's, they're claiming hardship, but it's, a lot of times it's BS. It's not true. And so I came up with, with this term called an empathetic insult. And so instead of saying, oh, you need to increase your prices because your prices went up? Okay, fine. It's, okay, well, actually, let's take a step back. So it sounds like you're having a really hard time fulfilling this contract. Do you, do you think this is something that you can fulfill comfortably? Because if not, we can find somebody else who is not experiencing this kind of hardship. And they're like, listen, things aren't that bad. We're fine. Right? And I'm wondering if we can take some of that psychology where it's almost like, oh, you don't have women on your boards?

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  Oh, okay. I'm not sure what it is that you're doing. I think most people will invest in other places because the statistics show that one is objectively better.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that's a, that's a great way to think about it. You know, it's an interesting thing because we've been having a lot of conversations about how we continue to influence people sitting in the seat where they can actually make change, which typically the chair of the board and the NamGov chair are the two individuals that have the opportunity to say, are we searching for the right talent? And they're the ones that we've been trying to connect with our, our own 50 women to watch talent. But it's, it's a really important point because they have to be the ones in that seat to raise their hands and say, are we sure that we don't have the capacity? Or we have looked everywhere that we need to look to be able to find the right talent?

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  So to your point, it is having them flip that script a bit. And to challenge that in a way that doesn't, you know, make people, you know, you have to do it in the right way. Like you said, you know, that, that sort of empathetic like insults of, how, how do I change your mindset on this without being rude? But also like surfacing this, you know, so that we can have a conversation around it.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Yes. And to be clear, I don't want to be obviously rude.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:07Speaker 00

  But I do want them to be like, wow, what's wrong with me that I can't get this done? I'm, I'm thinking about gender and just diversity in general. How do we turn it into like a, a status symbol? It's like, yeah, people are going to invest in this company because they actually have a roster that can get it done. Going back to the NBA analogy, we have a team of 5'11"s out here struggling. Yeah, I'm, I'm not going to bet on that team to win, but I'll probably bet on a team that seems to have a, a, a team that has a composite that's likely to succeed.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Agreed.

• 1:04:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll, we'll text back and forth on this. I'm, I'm riffing right now.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I think that's an important point. And it is one that, that, that's the responsibility of those two leaders on the board to bring up. If the CEO is not bringing it up, then it is important for the chair, the NamGov chair to, to voice that in a way that gets people to think about things differently. And there are a lot of, there are a lot of leaders that are sitting in those roles that are doing that. I think that's something that, that we should also give credit to. You know, we, we recognized more than 290 S and P Global and Fortune 1000 companies in September who have 40% women or more on their boards. And so there are companies that are still doing the right thing. It's ensuring that they're searching for talent in the, in the right way.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  And they know that diversity is an advantage. It's a business advantage.

• 1:05:35Speaker 00

  Right. No, this is great. This is great. Okay, I could talk to you about this forever.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  Simone, I know you've got thoughts. What's on your mind, man?

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  I'm going to play the devil's advocate here because I, I come from Venezuela. You're, you're Latina, so you, you understand the situation in Venezuela. And there is a word that you've been using, which is the, the word right. Right people, right things to do, right. So this, this is a word I struggle a lot with. And I'm, and I'll tell you why. I had to, I had to, to escape from Venezuela. I have to leave Venezuela. I had to do it quickly because I was against the government in 2011. I was against the government. So they, they would go to the protests and take, take pictures of you.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  And then they, they, they found you and they would put you in a list. The, the list was called Tascón list. T, T, A, S, C, O, N. So once you're in that list, they're more picky with you in terms of taxes, words and everything. You know, they're like, oh, let, let me check your profile for everything. So it becomes more and more difficult to live there. So my country was not there for me anymore. So, but I decided to protest against the government at that moment and to go against what was happening there. Many of my friends said, why are you fighting, brother? Just relax, go with the wave, go with the wave. So I had to go out of my country. I lost my networking.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  You know how important networking is? I had to start from, from zero. I was lucky I found Kwame, but I had to start from zero with no friends, no one that could, could believe or trust me. And I didn't see my, my grandma dying because I couldn't go back to my country. I didn't go for study of work. I, I, I had to leave and I couldn't go back. The sensation of not being able to go back to your country is something that maybe your parents can tell you, but it's, it's like very hard. So sometimes I go to bed and I think, did I do the right thing? Because my friends are there with their networking, with their wives, houses.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  And if they lose the job, they just go to mom's couch and that's it. So they have a pretty easy life. I have a very difficult life. They think that, oh, when you immigrate, you, you will have a good salary, every, everything will be better. And, and sometimes that's not the case. Sometimes it's more difficult. I, I, I'm here struggling to speak English. So, so some, I, for, I don't know, 10 years, I was convinced that I did the right thing, what was inside of my heart.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  But then I compare myself to my friends and I, I struggle to think that I did the right thing. They are, they just don't say anything, but they're not in the task on list. So they are fine. And if we go to data, what is what you're talking about? They are happy. They, they, they have a successful life in Venezuela and I did what I thought was right, but my life is a lot more difficult. So how do I know if I did right or not?

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Such a great question and I appreciate you sharing all that with me. It's, it's, it's because I've never had to leave a country. I was born and raised here and, you know, but to your point, my parents did do that. They can go back because they, you know, they didn't leave and any, they didn't escape. They essentially just wanted a better life and decided that they build it here. And, um, but it, you know, I think that goes back to what we were talking about in the beginning of the conversation is your values. And I, I think that your values are part of who you are. And so the reason that you, you decided to take that initiative was because you couldn't stand for it anymore.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  You know, I feel a lot of what you're describing now in this current administration. And I say this, um, as a personal reflection and not necessarily anyone of, of any, of the organization, but you know, it's, it's hard, you know? It's hard to, to, to not.

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

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• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  To, to fight for what's right, right? That's never an easy thing to do. I think we're doing it in a way at 50 50 to help contribute to the conversation, but I think there's so many other, the other fights that we need to have too, around what's happening here in the U S. And so what, what I'll tell you just from hearing your story, I think that you would have not been happy living in a country like that, knowing that you were going against your own values. And so I live my life thinking, is this, this adhere to my moral values and also just my values as a hu- human being and what I've, what I've grown up with and what I believe to be true and, and, and right.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  And I think ultimately that wins at the end of the day because I can sleep at night. And I don't know if you would have been happy in that situation. And I think you also have to look at it from a perspective of growth. You know, doing the right thing is not always the easiest path. You know, it's, it's just, it's just not. But sometimes the reward on the end of it is, is so much better. And it might mean that that reward is not houses and wives and boats and this and that, but it might mean that it's comfort of knowing that you're living your life authentically in the way that you want to and the way that you feel is right for you. You know, and I would say you've been very successful at that in terms of finding Kwame and having a, you know, a great, a great job.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  And, and it does take time, you know? This is not an easy, like, I know for my parents, it's not an easy country to sort of just come here and build a life. It takes a lot of perseverance and a lot of resilience. I didn't have to go through that. And I always say my parents' fight is their fight. I lived a very sort of cookie cutter life that they put me in. Um, and I'm very grateful for that, but I, I, I don't know everything that they went through, but I know that they worked, excuse my French, their asses off to make sure that we did have that cookie cutter life. And my dad was very, very committed to that. So I would only say to you, Simone, that I, I think that I, from my perspective, I think you would have not been happy if you would have had to keep your mouth shut and

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  live a life that you didn't feel was authentic to you.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  Well, thank you so much for your answer.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, great question.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great question.

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because it's, it's one of those near impossible calculations.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's hard, you know, it's, it's hard. And I know Venezuela, you know, has amazing things about it too. I have a, one of our 50 women to watch is from Venezuela and she lives in Miami now, but she does a lot of work in Venezuela and she leads a lot of the, the government and, and, and political efforts there too, because she's trying to change things. You know, if you ever want to have a conversation with her, her name's Latisha. She's wonderful, but she, you know, she, it's, it's not easy. I, I think it's, it's always, there's always that push and pull of when you're, you're leaving something that you love behind and, um, you know, we have a lot of identity with where we were raised and where we grew up. And it, I can't imagine how difficult that's been for you.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  But at the same time, I think you've done the thing that is right for you. And I think a lot of people also probably look at that and they won't tell you, but they'll look at that as being very courageous and that they could have never done that. But you did. So, you know, I, again, and using my motto, I would keep going.

• 1:15:14Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. And also just to, to put a, a weird bow on this narrative too. Isn't it ironic that we have a Venezuelan and a child of Guyana coming and runs the American Negotiation Institute?

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, but it's, but, but, but that's the country we're, we're, we're, we're made from, right? We all are so different and we have such different backgrounds and, and that's what makes America beautiful, I think. And it's, it's, you know, it's funny because it, it's the makeup of who we are. And so, but it's great.

• 1:15:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, amazing.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  Amazing. And so let's, because we, oh, this is, see, I love talking to you. This is what happens.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Talking to you too.

• 1:15:59Speaker 00

  Now we're going long. Let's, let's end this with a resounding triumphant. So Heather, say something epic about 50 50 women on boards, rally the troops.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:16:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Okay. Do I have anything epic? I don't even know if I wrote anything down.

• 1:16:19Speaker 00

  Write something down? No, this is in your soul.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:16:23Speaker 00

  To Alma, as some may say.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Something epic, okay.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. But just, I think I'm just, I'm putting you on the spot. I'm not messing with you because we're friends. But when, so essentially what would be the best way for people to get in touch and contribute and be part of this? Because this is nationwide. This is something that we want to continue to grow and get support behind. So what would be the best way for, for people to get in touch and, and join the movement?

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  It's a great question. If, you know, there's a number of different ways to get involved. And if you go to our website at 5050wob.org, you can find some of those opportunities. If you're an aspiring director, there's a roadmap there for you for how to, to, to build your, um, the, the, the things that you need to be able to apply for a board position. And again, you have to bring the expertise to the table. You also have to do some work behind it, but we'll, we'll help you shape how you get there. And then the other piece of it is if you're a sitting director and you want to get involved in Coach Women, we have that opportunity at our events in person or virtually through our board readiness programs. And so we want directors to get involved and participate that way. That's really important. If you want to be a speaker, there's ways to do that too.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  We're also hosting NOM Gov dinners with our 50 Women to Watch, which is a group of women that have been selected because they're ready for public company board service. So connecting that talent to the directors in their region is very important for us so that we can put them together to build a relationship so that they're meeting people that are in those decision-making seats to help build their network and their relationships for getting on a board. You know, and there's a bunch of other ways. Volunteering is also an opportunity. So if you want to volunteer in your own region and get involved in our regional events, or if you want to even open up your own chapter and chair that chapter, all of that exists. So we're, we're, we sit in the center and we hope that everybody gets involved in this ecosystem of boards so that they can help support each other.

• 1:18:17Speaker 01

  And it becomes sort of this 360 model where we continue to share the research and the data, we help build aspiring board directors, get them to the right place. Hopefully those directors are mentoring and then so on and so forth. And they secure a seat and come back and, and give a little too. So it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a long game, but you know, we're going to continue moving forward.

• 1:18:37Speaker 00

  Amazing. The 50 50 women on boards must have an incredible CEO to be able to make all that happen.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Incredible team too. We've got an incredible team. We've got, um, again, hundreds of volunteers. This is, this, you know, this is a, this is a, this takes a village and a great board. So we're, we're excited about the direction we're going in and I hope we can help impact more progress, but also ensuring that boards are equipped with the right talent and that they can find it at 50 50.

• 1:19:07Speaker 00

  Incredible. Heather, thank you again for coming back on the show. Really appreciate it.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. I appreciate you both. This has been so much fun.

• 1:19:15Speaker 00

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