Stop Grinding: Do Less, Protect Your Energy, and Perform Better With DJ Vanas

If you've been pushing hard but feeling empty, this episode will challenge everything you believe about high performance. DJ Vanas — Air Force veteran, member of the Ottawa Nation, and author of The Warrior Within (Penguin Random House) — brings centuries of tribal wisdom into a single, urgent message: you cannot be of service to anyone when you are falling apart. DJ has spoken at Fuqua School of Business at Duke University and Yakima Tribal Jail in the same week. His work spans 574 federally recognized tribes, healthcare systems, military organizations, and Fortune-level business teams. He doesn't teach cutting-edge frameworks — he teaches ancient ones that have been proven under the worst conditions in human history. Connect with DJ Vanas ⁠⁠nativediscovery.com⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Buy the Book: The Warrior Within⁠⁠ Contact ANI ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What does it really mean to be a warrior? Not the Hollywood version, but someone who leads with service, discipline, and a deep responsibility to others. Today's guest is DJ Vanas. He brings a perspective that is shaped by both military service and generations of tribal wisdom. As a US Air Force veteran and a member of the Ottawa Nation, DJ teaches what he calls Warrior Principles, a way of living rooted in community, resilience, and purpose. In this episode, we explore why modern grind culture is holding us back, how true leadership starts with taking care of yourself first, and why the most powerful tools for performance aren't new. They're simple, timeless, and proven. And we also dive into this concept of medicine,

• 0:45Speaker 00

  not as something that you take when you're sick, but as the daily habits that keep you strong in mind, body, and spirit. If you have been pushing hard but feeling off, this conversation might be the reset you did not know that you needed. Let's jump in.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of granola free at granola.ai/Quami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365-day returns, and make sure to tell them that Quami with Big Swings only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com/Quami.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Let me challenge you in this way.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Because for you, you're not just sharing your message, which by itself is incredible, given your years of service to our country. And thank you for your service, truly appreciate it. Served with honor, dignity, and respect. But you're also carrying hundreds of years of tribal tradition. So the message that you bring will have a context that nobody else can bring. And so if you were to challenge yourself to, to say what the core message is that you have, how would you put all that together?

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Um, the core message, at least that the way that I, what I promote is Warrior Principles, you know, from our traditional warrior role. And that principle goes back to being a good human being, being a benevolent leader, uh, somebody who is willing to fight for something bigger than their own personal welfare. You know, and it goes back to community, you know, taking yourself out of the number one position in our roles, in our communities, organizations, and in our leadership, and being able to focus on how we impact others on a daily basis. And so, and we can get, you know, more into that as, as we go. But, you know, there, there are certain specifics that make that warrior role

• 2:55Speaker 01

  unique and different in our community than it is in the stereotypical image we see in movies and on TV.

• 3:01Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh, so good. And okay, let's, let's dig deeper here too, because in order for folks to fully appreciate you, your brilliance, and what you bring, I think we have to recognize that we have to, like, deconstruct a lot of this, because we are going to bring our own paradigm to this. And the stories that you bring from your culture and all of the years of tradition will come from a completely different base. So we talk about Warrior Principles, and I think we all have an idea of what a warrior is. But what does that term mean to you when you use it?

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, I love the question, and I love answering it. Because it's not about the Hollywood image, you know, that stereotypical image that we see all too often on the big screen. And we see it all the time. You know, it's that sweaty, chiseled dude, and it's usually a dude. You know, he's walking down the street and shooting bazookas and knocking down buildings and bad guys, and occasionally, you know, certainly looks at the camera, all in the name of glory. And it, and that's what we get kind of programmed with when we think about that role. But in our tribal communities, that role is very different. My tribe, we call a warrior Ogichi Da. And that term has little to, nothing to do with what we see on TV and in movies. It's not about being the toughest kid on the block. It's not about, uh, you know, toxic masculinity.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  It's, it doesn't require a uniform or combat boots. You know, I did that for 14 years of my life. It goes back to the core of who we are as human beings. And it was simply to take our creator given talent and ability, develop that over a lifetime so that we could be an asset or a benefit to the village that we served, the tribe that we served. And today, whether that tribe is your own family, your community, your organization, your country, we all have a tribe to serve. And that burning question that should be on a warrior's mind, if they're following this role, is what can I do today to impact somebody else in a positive way? What can I do today to keep developing my skills, my strengths, and focus my energy, you know, to do today better than I did yesterday? So we're always in a state of growth, because that Warrior role,

• 5:09Speaker 01

  it transcends race, gender, age, stage of life. And it's about somebody who leads by example, not perfect example. Yeah, we all make mistakes, we all screw it up. But it's somebody who keeps fighting the good fight, because they know at the end of the day, it's not about them at all. It's about who they're serving, who they're protecting, what they're contributing to. A warrior asks a question, not what can I get from someone else, but what can I do for someone else? And at the end of the day, that Warrior role, it goes back to service. I mean, it's the heartbeat of that Warrior role. Who am I here to serve? And what does that look like for me on a daily basis?

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Hmm. Oh, this is great, because I feel like we can almost play around with definitions this whole episode, DJ. This is fascinating, because we have the, the tribal wisdom that you're bringing. But then, especially today, without getting into politics, we're recognizing just in general, as it relates to everything, we as a society are becoming more tribal in the psychological sense. You can even see it when it comes to education, when it comes to schools. Even in the fitness community, you have like CrossFit versus bodybuilding versus all of these.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it can get, well, and sometimes that word tribe gets a bad rap.

• 6:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  For a reason. You know, there are sometimes tribes that insulate themselves. They start to kind of bludgeon other tribes with their belief systems. But a tribe, tribe in, in the perspective I bring, comes from a very positive place. It was about unity. It was about a common culture. It was about having values. It was about having common virtues that everybody worked on, uh, ceremonies, the things that united us in a, in a positive way, and allowed us to take care of each other. But it also, it doesn't mean that we're insular. It doesn't mean that we close ourselves off to connecting to other tribes too. So I, I think it just depends on the way that you use the term. But the way that I look at it is from a lens of beauty. You know, all of our tribes, I mean, we have diversity within diversity.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  We have over five, we have 574 federally recognized tribes in just the United States alone, that speak a 200, 200 separate distinct languages, have different customs, religions, foods, backgrounds, travel histories. And so it's a, it's diversity within diversity. It's a, it's a really beautiful thing, and it's one of the true joys that I get in the work that I do. Because probably 75 to 80% of the groups I work with are either tribal entities or, or serving tribes. So whether it's in healthcare, education, business, uh, tribal employees. And I get to see so much of that in my travels, and I absolutely love it. No two weeks are ever the same.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  You know, like I said, all the tribes are distinct. But, but the nice part is we work together in collaboration more than we ever have before. So I don't look at that tribal thing as being insular and cut off from others. I look at it as building something beautiful and then connecting it to other groups, you know, through conversation, dialogue, uh, common ground, if you will.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Amazing, amazing. And the, your background and what you do today is so unique. Take us, take us through a day in the life, because I know you do a lot of travel. And I know you do a lot of incredible work. So how would, for somebody who is not familiar, how would you describe a common day? What are your goals, what are your objectives? What do you do? Who do you meet with? All of those things.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's part of the joy of doing what I get to do for a living. Is no two weeks are ever quite the same. Uh, I had a moment, this was years ago, where it just showed the, how different the weeks can be, is, is one day I was speaking at Fuqua School of Business at Duke University to 400 international business students. And the next day, I was at Yakima Tribal Jail in Washington State, speaking to 40 inmates that were in jumpsuits, orange jumpsuits. That, by the way, got woken up really early to come hear this knucklehead share some type of message that they hope would be relevant somehow, some way. It ended up being a great program, but it, and signed books after and everything.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  But it just, it, it made me, it was a pinch me factor. Like, to be able to do this is truly, it's an honor, it's a privilege. But I get to work with so many amazing people. And, and you know, in my jam, my wheelhouse is working with servants. You know, I've always looked at my work as providing for providers. So people who are out there doing good works in the world, whether it's through business, through healthcare, like I said, educators, community builders at every level, social services, those are my people. Those are the people I love to feed at a spiritual level, uh, to keep them strong, resilient, mentally tough, to do the work that they do, because it's not easy.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  But I come from that background, you know, I came, I'm a proud son of a career nurse and a career military man. And I come from a very service oriented family background. So I grew up seeing those principles in action. Uh, really seeing people doing it the right way, um, taking care of others, you know, and even in that leadership sense. I mean, this is, this is another thing, you know, I, I mentioned it before, you know, building benevolent leaders of character. Um, and, and what I mean by that is, you know, Justin Timberlake may have tried to bring sexy back, but I'm trying to bring benevolence back in leadership. And benevolence is coming from a good place, a place of good intention.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Um, and, and people always say, well, in leadership, you know, it has to be all about action. It's like, oh, no, I get it. It needs action, but it needs to come from a good place. If it doesn't come from a good place, what kind of actions are going to follow from that? And good leadership in our tribal communities, it wasn't about being the loudest voice in the room. It wasn't about bludgeoning other people with our ideas until they believe what we believed in. It wasn't about threats. It wasn't about intimidation. It was about putting the people that we lead first. Asking, what can I do today to strengthen my people, to guide them, to inspire them, to keep them hopeful, to keep them strong in the work that they do? Because I know as an individual, I can't do it all. We're not supposed to.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  And I was taught traditionally by my elders, we're more like bees and ants than we are like eagles. We need each other. You know, we're better when we're with each other. Cause we're built that way. You know, the creator to be social creatures by design. I mean, we're neurologically hardwired for connection. And when we honor that, we realize, you know, in a leadership position, especially it's not about us. It's about who we impact.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  That's powerful. And you're so right. And we are designed for that connection. And at the same time, we are more disconnected than ever before.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's the paradox. We're supposed to be in this hyper connected world. Yet the, the rates of people feeling isolated, people feeling depressed, you know, that, that bestselling book, the anxiety generation. You know, these are things that are, they're no longer anecdotal. There's a real dynamic, a real impact to the way that we use technology, the way that we, you know, tribe up in a, in a negative way. Uh, we go into these echo chambers where we only hear reinforced what we already, you know, think. So we don't get to explore different points of view. It's, it's a really strange kind of surreal time we're living in. You know, we're more connected than ever, yet we feel more lonely than ever before. So it's, it's really,

• 12:51Speaker 01

  uh, yeah, kind of a weird place to be.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  It is. It is. And especially when you think about the, the ubiquity of the challenge. Everybody's experiencing this in some capacity.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely. All across the globe. Small villages in third world countries or First Nations and down, you know, in inner cities, you know, it's, it's, it's hitting across the board. But the, the impacts of spending that much time, you know, with technology, with things that move this fast, is we expect the same results in our own lives. And it sets us up for frustration, anger, you know, um, you know, the, I, I think if you've lived on this planet for a little while, you know, the best things in life we ever enjoy don't happen at the click of a button or through a Tik Tok video or the, you know, the click of a mouse. You know, it takes time to build a life. It takes time to build a family, a career, a community, a team.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  But they're the best things that we ever enjoy. You know, true creation through that, not just a little, you know, a quick hit, but we live in that world. I mean, it's, it's instant gratification, you know, and um, the more time we spend in that arena, um, I, I think the, the more or the less perspective we have on how life actually works.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And let's focus on that word perspective again. And because you have years of service in the air force. Now you are traveling the country and the world doing, doing this great work. And I want to think about if we compare the way that you approach things to, um, other thought leaders in the space. Because there are a lot of people that talk about leadership. There are a lot of people that talk about resilience. There are a lot of people that talk about community. I, I want to, to help the person listening today understand what makes your perspective so distinct and unique, considering your background and your lineage?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  I love that question. And, and the answer to it, Kwame, is I, I don't do cutting edge anything. I, I talk about and teach about old stuff that works. You know, the, the fundamentals are still the fundamental. The basics are still the basics. Thankfully, right? In a world that's moving where the speed of life is a speed of light, uh, it is so, you know, encouraging to know that the old stuff can still work. And the, and the principles I share, they have been proven under the worst of circumstances, the hardest of times, uh, through millennia. You know, if, you know, our, our tribal communities, they are resilient in all caps.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  And there was ways that that was done. It wasn't just, you know, crossing your fingers and hoping we're going to make it through the winter. Or, you know, have the, grow the next generation. There were things that we did on purpose and purposefully to make that a reality. And that's the kind of stuff that I, I talk about because there, there, you know, there's, there's speakers who do a lot of great, latest and greatest studies. I use, you know, some of them in, in my work, but I'm a big believer in going back to the things that actually work for us. You know, that are simple, that are easy to apply, that have a proven track record. You know, how to stay, again, mentally tough, how to stay resilient, how to take good care of ourselves because we can't take care of anybody else. When we can't do it for ourselves first. You know, that's one of the things I really promote

• 16:21Speaker 01

  in my programs and also in my book is you can't be a warrior if you're falling apart.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  You can't be of service to anybody else when you're a hot mess. You know, when you're driving yourself off the edge of a cliff, when you're depleted, overwhelmed, you're not taking care of your diet, your health, you're not getting enough sleep.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  We just, it, it's an impossibility. I'm a pretty pragmatic guy. You know, if it works, I teach it, you know, but that one, you know, that model of go until the wheels fall off, the only thing it produces is the wheels fall off. You're not if any use to yourself or anybody else. And so it's, it's these types of things, you know, spending time, you know, like I, one of the things I really promote, especially in that self-care piece, is medicine. You know, medicine from a tribal centric viewpoint, you know, because when I say the word medicine in modern society, you know, Western society, the first thing that pops up is, is a pill, you know, vaccine. And it, and it shouldn't shock us. I mean, we're programmed to think about medicine that way. Right? I mean, every,

• 17:21Speaker 01

  what is it? Every fifth page of a magazine is hawking something. Every third commercial is selling something else. So we're conditioned to look at medicine that way. But medicine in our tribal communities has a different connotation. Uh, we call medicine in my tribe, we call medicine mushkeke. Comes from two words. Mushke means strength that you gather. And ke means earth. So literally strength that you gather from the earth. And everything and anything can qualify as medicine, as long as you know, it keeps you strong and healthy, mind, body, or spirit. Anything. It could be getting enough sleep, drinking enough water, spending time outdoors, which is literally medicine. They're writing books about this stuff.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Their elders have said for centuries that the outdoors were a true home. It's where we gather strength, where we get back to balance. You know, I had a, there was a guy I was talking to that was talking about this new cutting edge thing. I don't know if you've heard about called grounding. You know, we're going out to outdoors, taking your shoes off and standing on the earth. And I, I had a hard time not just cracking up because I heard, you know, this discussion, everybody's really excited about, I'm like, man, we've been doing that forever. That's, that's, that's been part of our community practice forever. Um, but it's about doing those things that we know are good for us. And, and by the way, medicine,

• 18:43Speaker 01

  you know, it's a much wider and deeper pool to draw from, but it's also something we don't wait to access until we're already sick and out of balance. It's something we incorporate into our lives daily. So we stay strong and healthy in the first place.

• 18:58Speaker 00

  And it's simple stuff, you know, like I say, it's things that don't cost extra money. They don't take a lot of time and but there those are the things that are going to get us back into the good fight on a daily basis and be able to do that work sustainably. You know, because we don't want to be strong and brave this week or this month. We want to be able to do this for our journey, you know, in life and career. And we can do that. There, there's ways that we can do that that have been shown to work. And like I said, during the hardest times.

• 19:29Speaker 01

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• 20:14Speaker 01

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• 21:28Speaker 00

  This is challenging because I don't have many more pages in my book left to write notes in. So just to slow down a little bit, DJ. Slow this down. And so what, one of the things I, it's hard to, to, to pick where to go next year. And my wife just walked in and she's a doctor and, and so I want to hone in on the medicine aspect. And I'm going to project my voice in the hope that she hears. And if not, I'm going to eagerly send this MP3 file because your perspective on medicine is, it's brilliant. And so I want to recap that. So did you, is it pronounced mushke?

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Mushkeke.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Mushkeke, okay. So strength from the earth and you don't wait until you are sick to get medicine. And this is brilliant because when you think about modern healthcare, it's sick care. We wait for people to get sick and then we add chemicals from outside of your body to maintain that. And then you get hooked on the chemicals. You can't be well without it and, and it just perpetuates. And the sickness is what drives the, the value for the industry. And so this is fascinating because it shows you that when it comes to medicine in a, in a real, true sense, at the heart of it, you need to be your own doctor.

• 22:51Speaker 00

  When it comes to finding out what medicine works well for you, because when we say the word medicine, we're not talking about something that is necessarily chemicals. This is something that is good for you and only you can tell internally what is making you feel well. And so this, this, this is just a paradigm shift. Can you go deeper into this DJ?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, it's a self-awareness. I, I love what you said, Kwame. It's knowing what makes you feel good, what you know at your gut level, not your head level, at your gut level, works for you, what, what really strengthens you. And it's, it's habits, it's practices. Like I said, time outdoors, getting enough sleep, eating the right food, staying hydrated. These are simple, simple, painfully simple things. And they're, they're so nonsexy, you know, like people, you know, like are looking for something more cutting edge, more, more, you know, uh, flashbang, you know? It's like going back to simple habits and practices is critically important. Who we surround ourselves with, uh, listening to music, what we read, what we, you know?

• 23:58Speaker 01

  We always talk about diets, you know, like I, I think everybody needs to be on a diet. And I don't mean by what we put in our mouth. That's what we tend to obsess about, right? It's what we put into our minds, what we put into our, our, our spirit, you know, on a daily basis. We, we always talk about diets because I, I think it goes back to childhood when we all learned about dinosaurs, you know, like carnivore, herbivore, you know? And then, and now we've got all these, all kinds of diets, you know, like keto and paleo. And we've got, we obsess about these things that, you know, pescatarian, just fish and vegetables, vegetarian, which is just vegetables. And my favorite humanitarian, which is, yeah, can't work. We don't want to do that, but we upset, but we obsess about those diets.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  And I, and what I'm talking about is what we put into our minds. We are bloated on information in this world. We are overwhelmed by it. Um, but we are sometimes anemic on wisdom, on good ideas, things that actually work, things that can benefit not just us, but the people around us. And, and that's a big part of that, you know, we, it doesn't matter for a herbivore or carnivore. We are all informavores. We are constantly consuming information at the highest rates ever in human history. It's easy to get lost. It's easy to get confused. That's why, you know, one of the biggest things that can be medicine is just shutting electronics off for a while.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Spend time outdoors, you know, we can, we came, the, the thing that, you know, I, I love that our elders have always taught us this and they still do today. The outdoors were our greatest classroom. Nature would teach us about everything we needed to be a happy, healthy human being if we just observe nature. And those lessons come up over and over and over again. And, you know, the, for instance, the, um, going back to the sleep study thing is, uh, you know, the, our elders have always shown that in the Max Planck Institute in Germany took our elders to task and they studied animals. And they studied their sleep patterns. For instance, we, we're talking about this, how this is like the foundation of a healthy, you know, fulfilled life.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  And what they found was pretty profound is the animals who were sleep deprived over a long period of time had 20, well, I'll, I'll do the positive first. The ones that got enough sleep consistently over a long period of time had six times the immunity cells in their bloodstream. Think about that, six times. These suckers were bulletproof. They were resiliency in action, strong, healthy, thriving. The animals that were denied sleep over a long period of time consistently had 24 times the parasites.

• 26:39Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Ugh. I mean, they were compromised. And now what does that mean for us? You know, as a professional in 2026, you go into work and you don't have enough sleep. Are you going to get a tapeworm?

• 26:52Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know who you hang with. I can't answer that. The answer is probably not likely. However, we deal with parasites all the time. They just come in a different form than a hookworm or a tick because parasites are what? By definition, something that latches onto a living creature and slowly drains the life out of us.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  Oh my goodness.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  We deal with that all the time. It comes through social media, through technology, through toxic behaviors, through difficult people. Um, you know, it's, it's one of those things that we have to be aware of and they come from every angle. You know, we've got to be our own protector. You know, we want to keep our warrior spirit strong. We have got to protect ourselves and build the right environment that we can thrive in and be healthy in.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Oh my goodness, I need a notebook.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  This is incredible. So this, this is so good. So, um, there's, this might seem irrelevant, but I'll bring it back. So in psychology, there's the Dunning Kruger effect. And so what they found is that the people who are often the most confident are the people who don't know very much because they don't know enough to know what they don't know. And coming into this conversation, my friend, I was very confident in my understanding of what medicine was, what health was, what being resilient was. And I'm realizing that you, this has been so paradigm shifting in such a fundamental sense already

• 28:25Speaker 00

  that I realized that we all could probably use a primer on what it means to be well. Because we have not experienced it enough or maybe even at all. Because when you think about the sleep deprivation, the studies demonstrate that the majority of especially professionals are sleep deprived. So we don't even recognize how sleep deprived we are. Because that is our baseline.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  And it's almost a bragging right, right?

• 28:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Like this is coming to work. Oh man, I only got five hours sleep. That's nothing. I've only got three hours of sleep last three nights. Is that really the, the goalpost we're shooting for? Is how, how fast can we deprive ourselves and still show up and do anything resembling, you know, quality, quality work? That is one of the, but this is the, again, the societal expectation. And, and this is the point where we have to be able to throttle back and be very clear on what our values are, especially when it comes to health, or we can pull back and say, what do I need for myself? So I can again, keep showing up and fighting the good fight on a daily basis, doing the work that I was put here to do and do it at a level that I expect myself to deliver at.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  So for us to be good warriors, really, the first person that we need to protect is ourselves.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  Because if we're not coming from a place of wellness, then we cannot protect and serve the others that we care about. We can't even protect and serve the ideals and values that we espouse. And I think we need, it's funny, I was trying to start this, I'm recognizing, I was trying to start this conversation on step sixteen. We need, we need to go back to like ground zero. And this might seem like a silly question, but when it comes to finding out what it takes to come from a place of wellness, where do we start? Because this is, this is what I'm recognizing, because I, I always want to give people skills.

• 30:29Speaker 00

  I want to give them mindset and skill set. But what I'm recognizing is that the mindset and skill set, they need to rest upon a firm foundation of wellness.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:39Speaker 00

  And most of us don't even understand what that is. So for the person who's listening, where do we start?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  I think it starts with self-awareness. I mean, I, I think you touched on it in a really strong way of saying, being aware of what we need. What, what do we need for us to be, to feel strong? To feel confident, to feel well-rested, to feel energized? Because again, back to that wellness piece, how on earth can you be a good leader to somebody else? If you are compromised, if you're drained of sleep, you're, you're not eating well, you're, you know, we, we say things in a moment, we regret in a week or regret for a week, because so, so many times we're operating at a deficit. We're running around in a million different directions, we're not doing well at any one of them.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Because we have not learned what to say yes or no to. You know, we've got to be concentrated, we have 24 hours in a day, seven days a week. How we use that matters, and we cannot do it all. We can't do it all this week, we can't do it all this month, you cannot do it all in a lifetime. This term FOMO, fear of missing out, if you've ever heard that, like my daughters were bringing that up, I'm like, what is that? I've never heard that before. And when I looked it up, I was like, fear of missing out, I'm like, oh my gosh, it was like a lightbulb moment. Like, that's the kind of world we live in, is we're so hyper-stimulated, we're so overwhelmed with, you know, information overload is a normal now. That's not an exception, that's a, that's a normal rule.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  And when we're running around so scattered that we run around, you know, with a fear of missing out, we're missing out on everything. You know, because again, when you're trying to do a million things, you're so depleted, you're so scattered. We're not good in it at any one direction, you know, and we feel it. Oh my gosh, have you ever had one of those days of, I got a million things to do today? First of all, our language matters, and when we program our heads like that, we are already in deficit.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  We are already, our amygdala is already firing, we're already under threat, we're already like, how on earth am I going to get all this done? And, and we feel it, we feel like too little peanut butter on too much toast, you know, when we are that spread, spread that thin. And we're doing the worst thing a warrior can do in battle, you know, is we're dividing and conquering ourselves before the fight even starts. So we have got to keep our good stuff concentrated, and the good stuff that I'm talking about is our time, our energy, our skill sets. And to be able to focus that like a magnifying glass on the things that we really want to achieve. And if we don't know what that looks like, then we're really, you know, just kind of winging it. So again, we have to know what our values are, what we're working towards, where our mission is.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  We can't do it all, so we've got to pick and choose by design. But once we know what that good stuff is, focus it like a laser beam. You know, I, I give the analogy of, you know, if you stand out in the sunshine for five minutes, what's going to happen to you? Not much, you're going to warm up, maybe sweat a little bit, nothing dramatic is going to happen to us. Even though there's a star only 93 million miles away from the earth, which is a next door neighbor in space terms, pumping an insane amount of energy at this place, it's spread out. So it doesn't have any big effect in any one particular place. But if you harness that energy, if you focus that same energy that's falling on your face into say, a magnifying glass, you get a whole different result with that.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Any, you know, 10-year-old kid will tell you what you can do with that, this ex-10-year-old kid used to do it all the time. And I got busted for it, you can light your backyard on fire. And it all comes down to the power of focus. Focus on the right things, you get the right results. Focus on everything, you get none. And that's the challenge of the world that we're living in today. Can't do it all, we got to pick and choose.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  We need a complete reset. As, as humans, we, we need a complete reset. A couple of things, the recapping for the audience here. Information overload is the norm, where again, we don't even know what it feels to, to be normal or be in a, in a place where we have the appropriate amount of stimulation, because we're always chronically overstimulated. And so we keep on trying to do more with less, and we never take the time to slow down and realize we need to, we need to recognize that we're doing too much. We were not, we simply were not meant to do these things at this quantity and at this pace. And so we have to start to do less.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  And so that, that in itself, and when we think about the warrior mindset, the first battle we have to fight is internally, like you said, when it comes to self-awareness, and we have to fight the desire to do too much, which then requires us to understand what are the important things to do? Because now I'm recognizing, we are prioritizing things that don't matter, and the things that do matter, like good medicine for us, community, sleep, being outdoors, grounding, those are the last things we do. And then we say, you know what, maybe in six months or so, I could go to some beach where I can touch, touch grass, right?

• 36:10Speaker 01

  And then, and then we don't do that. It's, it's the ultimate game of almost like self-neglect, self-abuse. We keep putting that carrot out in front of us, you know, I, I'm working really hard and I'm going to get to this stage where I take a break. And we don't, we just move on to the next thing and the next thing. And it sets up this dynamic, which is really dangerous, and it's very common in our society, which is, we start to feel like our life is like a treadmill with one button on it faster.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  Oh my God.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  And that is unsustainable. I don't care how strong you are mentally, physically, emotionally.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  If you continue that, it's only a matter of time, if you're not taking breaks, if you're not, you know, again, going back to your medicine, it is only a matter of time before we burn out. You know, we're, we're going to get there, doesn't matter how strong we are, we have got to replenish. I mean, the older I get, the, the more I realize how much better my life is when I carve times out for solitude. You know, when I slow down, when I have quiet time, you know, I, I prioritize that, because I know how important it is in a, in a hurry up, fast-paced world that we live in, so that I can be effective at what I do. You know, slowing down, getting back to solitude, it's like letting the dirt settle in our mud puddles. So that we get back to a place of clarity.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  We are so busy sometimes stirring up that, that mud puddle, that we're not really seeing with great clarity, what's an important use of our time, where we should be putting our energy, where we should be taking those moments to say, you know what? I need a moment here, I need to go take a walk, I need to go to bed earlier, whatever it may be, because we're constantly stirring it up. So that's, you know, having that quiet time, it's, it's, it's key. It gives us, I, I kind of look at it as a, it's kind of a mixed analogy, but I, I think it gives us mental breathing room. You know, and, and when we do that for ourselves, it's not just a gift we give to ourselves, it's a gift we give to other people. Because when we are able to do that for us, we show up as a better version of ourselves.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  We are more patient, we're more kind, we're more likely to find solutions to our challenges. We're more likely to extend grace to others, to be patient, there's just, there's so many positive benefits to doing that. And again, that's, again, we have to realize it's not about us, it's about who we impact. And if we want to be good vessels to carry that, that responsibility, we need to do things purposefully.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  Wow, this is like a therapy session. So DJ, this is, the timing of this is perfect, because I was, over the past week, I was like, you know what? I need to, I need to put my foot on the gas right now, there's some business things I want to accomplish. And I was saying, you know what, I get up at 5:30, I go to the gym, what I'm going to do is I'm going to pull back some of those gym times, and then I'm going to replace that with work time, so I'll get up at 5:30, then I'll start working at 6:00. Then I could get about two and a half hours in before I have to take up, dominate, go to school. Then I could work from 6:00 to 6:00 essentially, then, and I'm like, and now I'm hearing this, and I'm like, man, I'm moving backwards. I need to reevaluate my goals, because you're, you're so right, we can't pour out from an empty cup.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  And again, for the people who are listening to this podcast, they come here for skills, and they want to be able to do more and achieve more. And I'm, I'm thinking too, when it comes to just the, I'll take a brief detour to negotiation, almost like this is a negotiation podcast, but we need to bring it back to the fundamentals, right? I, I'm recognizing that for the, for the folks out there who are trying to achieve these goals in negotiation, and they say, I, I really struggle to sit and listen to what the person is saying, especially when I disagree. I really struggle to manage my emotions, I really struggle to deal with the pressure and tension. I really struggle to be quiet when I should be strategically quiet. How do I do those things?

• 40:10Speaker 00

  And you can't do it from a place of being unwell.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Or, or being, yeah, that frenetic bouncing around type of dynamic that we get used to, you know, being, being, you know, all over the place. I, I love what you said, because here's the reality, this is what I've found to be true. The slower I move in life and in my work, the higher quality I produce. The quieter I get in my life, the better answers I receive.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  So it's just, it's one of those things that the society pushes back on that truth. But when we experience it for ourselves, we know it's the truth. But the more I walk on this journey, the more I realize those, those two things are absolutes in my life.

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  We're scared to take our foot off the gas pedal, aren't we? We're like, oh, my gosh, how on earth could I take a vacation or take a break or go to bed early or really fight for that eight hours of sleep at night? I've got so much to do. And we're scared to take our foot off the pedal because we think we're going to get left behind. But the reality is when we take that time, slow down, get quiet. When we reengage, we're at a much higher level of what we're able to do, what we're able to produce.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  Wow. And so listen, the audience, we have to remember who DJ is. He's not here like, you know, sitting on a lotus leaf floating around, not doing anything. He's doing, he is extremely accomplished, a veteran and a speaker and an author and traveling a lot. And you, you, you really give us hope to recognize that we can still be the leader that we want to be. We can still have the impact that we want to have, and we can still do great, impressive things while at the same time doing less.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:58Speaker 00

  And, and, and so this is going to sound almost like a silly question, but what I've recognized over the years is that sometimes the best negotiators are the ones who are humble enough to ask the seemingly dumb question.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  If we want to do more, how do we do less when it seems like there is so much we need to do?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Prioritize. That's an important one. Learning what to say no to. We all have a lot of responsibility. We all have a lot to do. If you want to accomplish something, it's going to take work, it's going to take discipline, it's going to take time and effort. I get that. I recognize that. I respect that. However, if you're doing it at the expense of your health, your balance, your patience and how you interact with other human beings, you are going to slow down or stop those good results that you're trying to get. So we've got to be very aware of how we prioritize. For instance, where we put our time. Our, our time is the most precious resource we have. It's non-renewable, it's non-regorable, non-rechargeable.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Where we put our time on a daily basis defines everything. It defines our level of health, our level of performance, our level of happiness, our level of health, our level of relationship, based on where we are putting this precious resource. And one of the quickest ways to get clarity on that is asking ourselves two questions. Number one, am I putting enough time into the things that really matter to me? And number two, am I maybe putting too much time into the things that don't? It's one of the quick ways to, you know, kind of cut through the fog and get back to what really matters. Because, man, we live in a world today, everybody and everything wants a piece of our time. I mean, from every direction, whether it's spam phone calls or junk email,

• 43:44Speaker 01

  or people complaining to us about something that, you know, that, that happened five minutes ago and they're, they're magnifying it. They're not clarifying what happened and they want us to be a part of this, you know, crazy train. Like it, it comes from every different direction. And if we allow that to happen, we are left with nothing at the end of the day. You know, it's one of those days where we're busy, but we don't feel like we got much done. And that's why we have to be very judicious on where we put that precious resource. Our energy is another one. You know, if, if we're busy people, then it's going to be absolutely critical that we carve the time out to recharge. Because if you want to be productive, you got to show up ready to win the game.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  You can't do that showing up on two hours of sleep, you know, driving yourself to, to a period or a place of awakeness based on monster drinks and coffee, you know, and, and expecting quality things to come of that. It's just, you know, we got to put first things first. And again, you can't be a warrior if you're falling apart. So that's where, that's where it starts. That's the, that's the first battle.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Do you, did you say that because you can like smell the caffeine on me or something?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  I'm a coffee drinker too. Coffee for me is ritual. I get it. Every morning I start the same way. I, I, I get up, meditate, I read something positive, I have coffee as I read, and it's a ritual, you know? But later in the day, you know, if things are really busy, I'm not afraid to shut down for a little bit and take a 20 minute nap, like a reboot. Because what you don't want to do is keep fueling yourself with the, the extra, you know, the extra jolt of chemical through the day, because you get more and more dependent on it. And, you know, that can lead to bad outcomes, you know? So, yeah, it's everything in moderation, Kwame. You know, I love coffee too, man. It's, it's not about not doing a thing.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  It's just making sure that we're putting the right practices in places as the priority.

• 45:43Speaker 00

  Amazing, amazing. I see Simone is leaning in studiously, ready to ask us questions. Simone, what's coming to mind?

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Is there a difference in the message that we have to craft for different people to understand that? I mean, it is easier for, at least for me, to craft that message for a person that is more open to, to this,

• 46:09Speaker 02

  or that has experienced this. But sometimes, let's say you have to talk to a, to a CFO. That person sees everything in green and red numbers. So that person tells you, we need this right now. Is there a way to persuade that person that has that type of narrow mindset?

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Try this. Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too. So there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call, just your normal meeting, but with superpowers.

• 47:17Speaker 00

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• 48:01Speaker 00

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• 48:31Speaker 01

  Great question. Definitely a challenge. You know, that, that idea of you can only lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink. Go back to that because sometimes, you know, when you have a conversation and you try to get people to be curious about, number one, to really take an introspective look at the way that they're doing it. Because sometimes people, especially at a high level, at, you know, C-suite level, will convince themselves that what they're doing is working. You know, I used to think that too about myself. I was running, I know what it's like to burn the candle at both ends and in the middle until you got no wick left to burn, where it's challenging your health, your relationships. I've been there. Like you have to take a clear-eyed assessment and say, is this really working?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  And sometimes when you start having that conversation, it's like, yeah, I'm getting great results in my job as a CFO. But, you know, I, I've been having health issues or I've been having relationship issues. Or I, you know, you can keep filling in the blank. And there, there's little things that if you can actually just be able to see it, because I've never been a fan and never will be of telling people how to live their lives or what to do. I'm a big believer in options. You know, how you live your life and what you do, that's your gift, that's your business, your responsibility. I have my own to do. But I am a big believer in options. And sometimes when you have a conversation, the conversation kind of hinges on, you're getting good results, but how could you do this better? How could you do this better at less expense of your, your spirit?

• 49:58Speaker 01

  Less expense of your physical health, less expense of your relationships. You know, how could you achieve these same goals or even better by doing that? And so, and it's trying to get people to see things through a different lens because we get sometimes so entrenched on the way that we're doing it that we, you know, we're all storytellers, right? I mean, I come, literally come from an oral tradition. We didn't have written languages in our tribal communities. Everything that we shared was based on story. But regardless of where you come from, we're all storytellers. We're constantly telling stories about how things are, how they got to be the way that they are, what's going to happen, why it happened. We tell stories to ourselves, we tell stories to other people.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  And sometimes we're telling ourselves and we're convincing ourselves of a story that the way I'm doing it is the best way. And almost every time that gets brought up, it, it's not the right answer. There's always something that can be improved, something that can be done a little bit better, a little bit smarter, a little bit wiser, a little bit, little bit more gentle. Those are things that a little bit more compassion towards ourselves. So we have to, when we, we stay in that state of mind, then we open the doors for learning something different. You know, we can't learn anything if we don't have humility. You know, that's one of the, we, we call it the seven grandfather teachings in, in my tribal culture. And it's based on things like truth, honesty, love, courage.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  And one of the most important is humility. And, and the seven grandfather teachings are basically a snapshot of what we would consider to be a good life. And humility is so important because it allows us to say, okay, the way I'm doing it may be a way to do it, but it's not necessarily the best way to do it. And when we just have that little bit of humility, we keep the schoolhouse doors open so we're able to learn something new, something better. And like I said, sometimes we're scared to change. You know, we're scared to take our foot off the gas pedal and say, you know what? How on earth could I carve another hour of sleep out? You know, that's another hour I could be grinding it out. You know, and that that grind culture is just so destructive. You know, I'm killing it. I'm crushing it 24/7.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  What you're doing is you're stepping on a gas pedal to get to a health crisis. You're just getting there a little quicker than everybody else, you know? And we gotta get out of that mentality, you know? So, so that's what I would say, because I've had conversations like that with leaders. We're like, well, I'm, you know, I'm on, I'm on my A game all the time. And then we start having a real conversation where they kind of let the armor down a little bit. And you're like, yeah, I'm getting great results. I got that promotion, making great money. But there's these areas of my life that are pain points that I now recognize. And I'd like to change them. And, and the good news is you can change them and still be getting good results. You're just enjoying it a hell of a lot more.

• 52:49Speaker 00

  Wow, wow. So first of all, DJ, thank you for, you know, short circuiting my future health crisis. I appreciate that. Thank you. Um, the second thing, Simone, I'm going to tell our CFO at the American Negotiation Institute, Arthi, that you're talking about her. I'm going to tell her that. So you're telling her to chill through DJ. So I'm going to let her know. Um, and then also I'm just realizing there's so much that we have to learn. So this, this would be a good opportunity to land the plane and let you talk about your book, but I'm not letting you go DJ anymore. Okay, so we, you gave us five of the grandfather teachings. I'm not going to let you go without giving us the rest.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  So tell us, tell us what we need to learn about these things. How do we live a good life?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the, the seven grandfather teachings are love, wisdom, truth, respect, honesty, humility, and courage. And when we apply those into our value system, then, then, and we know what that looks like, it makes life so much easier. We're giving ourselves a gift because now we know again, what to say yes to, what to say no to. When we know what our values are, everything in life becomes easier. It doesn't become easy, it becomes easier because now we know what direction to put our time and energy into. You know, when we're trying to bring those to life, we breathe those values to life with our actions. But we first have to know what they look like, right?

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Can't hit a target that you never identify. So that's what, you know, and that's been around for a very, very long time. And again, I like to talk about things that actually work, you know, that, that around for a while that aren't necessarily cutting edge, but they have gotten results for a long time that are good results.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  Wow. Yeah, I heard somebody say that you can't hit what you don't aim at and you can't hit what you don't shoot at. So for the person who's listening to this, it is not enough to just know. You have to actually take action. Kwame, you have to take action Kwame. Okay, so thank you, DJ.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  But, you know, I always, I always encourage people to know your handful. You know, you don't want that list of values to be 26 different things because then we're violating that clarity principle again. You know, when we know those, those few things, I'm a big believer in this. You know, like I said, the slower I move, the higher the quality of my work is. The quieter I am, the better answers I receive. But it also, in, in that same kind of vein, I have found in the older I get, the more I see this to be true. Less is more. Less is more. I feel unburdened when I, when I have clarity on what I'm working towards and I don't have to keep piling more on the plate. It's like being at an all you can eat buffet and you never say no to anything.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  You know, it's like you got a three foot, three foot food or a feat of food on your plate. You might be able to put a dent in that, but there's no way you're going to finish it. We just set ourselves up for what's so common in the world today, which is overwhelm. Where we put too much on our plate. We do it with the best of intentions. Don't get me wrong, because we all want to do good works. We all want to be productive. We all want to hit results. But when we do it at that level, like I said, we're not going to be able to accomplish what we're trying to. We set ourselves up for overwhelm. We're in that flight fighter freeze mode. You know, we get into this place where we, we, we're compromised. That's probably the best way to say it.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  You're right. And again, if we truly do want to be the warriors that we aspire to be, now we're recognizing that we are fundamentally compromised on that journey. Most of us are.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  And I had been there too. Like I said, this is coming from, I speak to this through experience. Like I was the go getter, hair on fire, ready to change the world. I was, you know, active duty military. I had a big responsibility in that role. I was starting my own business. We were starting our family and man, I was all over the place. I was running a million miles an hour. I was, I was testing the limits of what was possible. I had every classic sign of stress and I ignored them all. Because I kept saying the same dumb thing we say sometimes. I'll say I was dumb at that point because I, it was so clear. And I was like, no, no, I'm stressed, but I'll, I'll take care of myself later. When it's not so busy, when it's a little bit more convenient, when I get past this, this, or this. And it was always something else.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  That's why I said it's like that ultimate game of self abuse, self neglect. I'll, I'll take care of myself when. And when showed up for me in the form of what I thought was a heat rash. And I got the shingles at 28 years old. So down my rib cage, top of my thigh. And I, I promise you, I would not wish that on my worst enemy. That was an awful, painful experience for about six weeks. And I did it to myself. Because I saw the writing on the wall. And this is the way we shouldn't learn in life is you see the writing on the wall and we don't change until we hit the wall. That's one way to learn. I don't recommend it. It comes with a lot of pain and a lot of suffering that was, that didn't need to happen. But I will tell you, it locked in a lesson that I carry with me for life.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm a born again advocate for self-care. Even the way I used to motivate myself back in the day. I've learned that motivating myself with a whip got results. It got results. It looked good on paper, but man, I suffered driving myself to the brink of, you know, of the edge. It affected my relationships. It affected my health. And I realize now, you know, motivating myself with kindness, with encouragement. It not only feels different, the results I get from that are completely different. Higher quality work, better connections with those around me. Because now I'm taking better care of myself and that's where that starts.

• 58:54Speaker 00

  Wow. And what I'm recognizing too, is that this is going to look different for different people. And we have to respect our authenticity in that regard. And I, I'm, I'm recognizing that I have the capacity to do a lot. And in those moments where I have kind of lit up the scoreboard when it comes to the, the resume and external accomplishments, a lot of times, most of the times it comes from a place of, of, of, of not, not being well as I'm doing those things. It's like I drag myself through nails to accomplish these things. And I get to the point where I can't even appreciate it for a while.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  I remember when I, when I graduated from law school, I did public policy work in a nonprofit, an organization that was within the law school technically, but it was located across the street. And so there was obviously a lot of connection. The, um, one of my favorite law school professors ran the institute and so I was part of that institute. And it took me over six months to even set foot briefly in the law school again. Cause I did a law school, a law degree and a master of public policy at the same time. And the, the bar exam is a dreadful thing. And I still graduated within three years, the three years that you would typically have with law school.

• 1:00:20Speaker 00

  But I did the public policy degree, leadership positions of organizations and all of these things. And I, like, I hated law for a very long time. Yeah, I truly did. And I, I recognize now that, my, my family's from the Caribbean. So I'll, I'll use, uh, uh, some island terms here. So I was kind of playing at heavy metal pace, but I'd rather live a reggae lifestyle. And I've, I, you know, and I've never really allowed myself to do that. There would be spurts and those were the times where I was happiest. But then when I get to that point where I'm trying to achieve more, you know, we start lighting up that scoreboard of achievement again, but the wellness goes down.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  And it's an internal negotiation with I, with myself that I'm recognizing that I lose every time, even if I win, where I say, all right, I'm going to go so hard for a certain amount of time. And I've proven to myself so many times that I can postpone wellness to achieve a certain aim. And then what ends up happening is I get what I want and I despise it at the end of the day. And so I have to just.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  See, that's wisdom though. You're learning through actual experience, what works, what doesn't, how to stay in balance. Let me ask you, you, you said when you were happiest, were you still being productive?

• 1:01:40Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:01:47Speaker 00

  You know what's funny? Simone, you've been with me for a long time. You, you probably don't even know those times where in my mind, I'm checking. No, I don't want to say checking out. I'm never checking out. Where I'm like, in my mind, I'm quote, slacking off. In my mind, I'm taking it easy. And what's funny is that I always think it's interesting because people say, even at those times, they're like, Kwame, you're the hardest worker I know. I'm like, I've been, they don't even know that I've been in hiding for the last few weeks. I haven't, I don't think I've done much. And everybody's like, you do so much. And so I think I've gotten so used to, to operating at such a toxically high pace that I don't know what normal is. So when I feel like

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  I'm slacking off, I'm still performing at a high level. This is, this is mind blowing.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  That's, that's the paradox of it. And the thing is, I don't know if you caught this in your language pattern, but even when you said, I'm slacking off, I'm taking it easy, like it's a shameful thing. You know, the, I mean, when we talk about having those moments for ourselves, it allows us to have a capacity to be playful. When we're playful, when we take that rest time, that fun time, we're more creative. Like I said, we're kinder, we're, we're more patient, we're more likely to have a breakthrough in our work and what we're, what we're grinding so hard to create. Sometimes it comes so much easier. You know, I wrote The Warrior Within during the height of the pandemic. And I had a golden rule for myself because I was, you know, like there was nothing going on in isolation. You could just grind it out as much as you want. But I

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  realized the first couple of weeks of writing it, I was miserable. I had this opportunity of a lifetime, you know, with Penguin Random House, this huge project, great expectation.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, and I was miserable. I wanted to just walk away from it. And after the first few weeks, because there's writing deadlines, it was like, it was a pressure cooker. And I said, you know what? This is gonna, this is not sustainable. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna get up in the morning, take care of myself the way that I'm supposed to. I'm gonna write for a couple hours. And regardless of how much I get done or don't get done, I'm gonna go outside for the rest of the day. Go take a walk, go take a hike, go to the beach. And I did. And I had the most fun writing this book. I got the most joy out of it. And I think I produced the highest level of work I've ever done, because I approached it that way. I took my foot off the gas pedal,

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  and I ended up producing something that, like I said, I was very happy with how it turned out. But I wasn't just happy with how it turned out. I was happy with who I was as I was turning it out. So you can have your cake and eat it too, when it comes to, to this stuff. You can get good results and still take care of yourself. And then you notice when you were like, but then I was grinding it out. And you say that with all pride. That's, that's like the thing that we're like, we're, we're okay to say, you know, hey, man, I only got three hours of sleep last night. People are like, oh, that's nothing. We start comparing those notes. But then somebody else is, you know, ashamed to say that they had a long weekend and how much fun they had, doing absolutely nothing. Like, we don't even want to say that. What did you do this weekend? I didn't do anything.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  I just sat out in the backyard and looked at the trees.

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

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• 1:05:45Speaker 00

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• 1:05:54Speaker 00

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• 1:06:39Speaker 00

  and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings only. That's the best way to support the show.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Like, we wouldn't want to, you know, but most of the time, we wouldn't want to admit that, even though that could be the best thing we do for ourselves. So, again, it's kind of shifting those, those lenses, if you will. But we can have our cake and eat it too, when it comes to high performance, and taking care of ourselves. So we actually, I'm gonna say something that's pretty blasphemous here. We actually enjoy the process too.

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Listen, I need to go outside, touch grass.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:07:25Speaker 00

  And, and then take a walk. DJ, my gosh, I had high expectations. And they, you, you blew them out of the water. I didn't know that was possible. Man, thank you. Thank you for this. Wow.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  So good. So good. And so before you go, let the listeners know again about the book, how they can get in touch with you and work with you too.

• 1:07:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely. The best way to get ahold of me is through my website, which is just nativediscovery.com. The best way to get a copy of The Warrior Within is anywhere that you buy books. On Amazon, you can go directly to the publisher on Penguin, Barnes and Noble. And if you're too busy to read The Warrior Within, I'll read the whole thing for you on Audible. So I'm the narrator for the book. And that was a lot of work, but a lot of joy too. And the audio version of The Warrior Within has a bonus hour and a half interview I did with one of my very best friends, classmate from the academy, Dr. Kevin Basic, who teaches behavioral integrity and ethics at an Air Force wide level before he retired. And now he does it, you know, as a

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  speaker. But he and I, we, I've known him since I was 17 years old. And so we're, you know, pretty close. And we did this interview, and we dive deeper into some of the stories in the book, and we cover some completely new stories too. So that's the bonus for the audio version.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  Amazing. DJ, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Muguets Niji, thank you very much, my friend. It was, it was a joy and an honor. And thank you, Simone.