Stop Giving Advice Nobody Asked For | Nidhi Tewari

Nidhi explains why the biggest mistake leaders make is rushing from empathy into problem-solving, and why she never gives advice unless someone asks for it. She also asks a question worth sitting with: when we fix, share our own stories, or offer platitudes, whose comfort are we really prioritizing? If you want to connect more deeply with the people in your life and at work, this one's for you. Connect with Nidhi Tewari www.nidhitewari.com Connect with Kwame: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ @kwamenegotiates across all social platforms

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The biggest mistake that leaders make is they shift gears too quick. They shift gears from being empathetic into problem solving. So you come to a leader, you share with them that you're struggling with caregiving for your elderly parent. They give you two minutes of empathy. I'm so sorry to hear that. Oh, I can only imagine how hard it is. And then all of a sudden now it's like, okay, but what is this going to mean in terms of meeting your deadlines? What does this mean in terms of taking time off? How are you going to be able to balance responsibilities? It it invalidates all of the empathy and compassion that you just showed. I don't actually give advice unless it's requested. So that I think is a foundational thing people need to keep in mind.

• 0:42Speaker 00

  If people want advice from you, they will literally ask for your thoughts. They'll say, what do you think about that? Or huh, I'm thinking about doing this. What, how would you do it? They will ask you for the advice, yet we assume that people desire our advice. So unless somebody directly asked me for it, or unless I have provided them that option as part of the menu and they have chosen and selected it, I do not give advice.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  If you listen to this show, you're probably one of two people. You're someone who's trying to improve their communication skills and learn how to resolve conflict. Or you're a deal maker who's trying to learn how to get an edge in their next negotiation. So you could either make more or save more. The American Negotiation Institute is built for both. We have keynotes for conferences, workshops for teams and courses for everyone. Because the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see you there. I was just reading this book.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Working Well by my friend Nithi. So yes, Nithi is back on the podcast. I have a question for you. How many people do you know are both a clinician, a drummer in a hard rock, heavy metal band and a keynote speaker? There are very few people who match that, especially not people who are Indian American. But Nithi is the person. She is truly one of one. In this episode, we talk about so many cool things. It was a really great vibe session because of course, we talked about her incredible book, Working Well. And we talked about attunement. We talked about psychology for sure. And we just vibed because she has such a cool story.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  She is the epitome of what it looks like when you give yourself permission to be who you are and who you aspire to be. After listening to this episode, first of all, you're going to have a great time. I think that's the most important part. And you're also going to recognize how to connect on a deeper level with other people. How to understand how instincts, how judgment and how your gut actually matters and can guide you effectively. And how to recognize when it doesn't. And you'll recognize how you can take all of these learnings to make your life, your career and your relationships better. My friends, you are in for a treat. This is the story of Nithi Tewari and welcome to Big Swings Only.

• 3:08Speaker 00

  I I've always been the kind of person that is an outside the box thinker and doer. I'm not one to march to everybody else's drum, right? So I would say one of the most me stories was the decision that I made to join a heavy metal band. And to become the drummer of a heavy metal band. Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. I did that for eight years. I played in a touring band.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  It was crazy.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  That's so cool. Okay. What was, when you tell me about that journey? First, tell me about the decision that you made to do that. And then also the perspective of your friends and family as you've made that decision.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  So the decision to to become a drummer in a heavy metal band. I did not have any experience playing the drums whatsoever. My hus- my now husband, who I'd been with for over 20 years. He and I were going through a breakup at the time and I felt very lost. I had no idea who I was, what I wanted to pursue in life. And so I made the decision to just try something new. I remember going to Guitar Center one day with one of my friends who's a guitarist. And I saw these drum kits there and I just got behind the kit. I started kind of messing around. And before I knew it, within the hour, I had started to come up with my own beats. And I realized, oh my gosh, I'm a little bit of a natural at this.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  Like, what if I actually trained with somebody and learned technically how to do this? So I ended up meeting up with one of my friends. He so graciously took me under his wing and spent about six to eight weeks teaching me the basics. Paradiddles, how to be able to coordinate hands and feet, how to be able to do different drum rolls and fills. And before I knew it, my friends and I had started a heavy metal band. And I was the one behind the kit, playing the drums. And just over the years, as I taught myself more and more, we started to tour. We started to play with other big name bands. And it became a way for me to be a bit of a trailblazer in the community.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Because as you can imagine, there were very few female drummers and zero Indian female drummers. And so I was kind of the first in the DC area.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  This is amazing. Okay. And now tell me how your friends and family reacted to this.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  Confused. They were very confused. They're like, wait a second, you're doing what now? And and of course, you know, this is like heavy music, right? Like, there's like, there's like screaming in this music. And so I think a lot of my friends and family were confused because I had just graduated from college. I was supposed to be starting my career and now here I am, taking this detour into becoming a drummer. But I think with time, as they saw that this was something that I was passionate about and was kind of a natural at, they started to support me and my friends and family came out to see me play live. And many of them actually now, it's kind of like the joke around the table. That Nithi used to be like the the heavy metal drummer.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  That's amazing. And what's funny is the world always just sees you as a, somebody who was a social worker, incredible author, and now you're lighting up stages, speaking. But before you were lighting up stages, drumming. That's incredible.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  Yes. And interestingly enough, in the book, I talk about music as the way of really understanding this idea of attunement or being like in step with one another. Because when you really think about it, when you're playing in a band, you are constantly watching each other for cues. You're trying to see, okay, is this the right moment to slow down? Is this the moment to speed back up? You're you're really creating together and you have to be so in step and watch each other's movements and demeanor to notice when the next change of pace or the next tone change or key change is going to happen in the song.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, this is fascinating because there is a rhythm to music and there's also a rhythm to life. And for me, studying psychology, the, I love the fact that you, you promoted this idea of attunement here too. And I love the nexus between this concept and rhythm. So let's talk more about this because we're seeing how music, how there was a connection between music and what it is that you currently do. I'd be interested to explore different elements of your life where at the time, you didn't think that it would have such a resonant impact on you going forward. But then looking back, you say, oh, you know what?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  I would be fundamentally different if this particular thing or this particular skill or experience didn't happen.

• 7:59Speaker 00

  I would say the most formative moment for me that really led to me doing the work that I do today was in 2016. Because in 2016, I got my dream job. I just remember being so excited and thrilled to work for an organization that was aligned with my mission, my vision and my values. And I envisioned myself working for this organization for many, many years to come. I was also the high performer, so I took it upon myself to plan the holiday gatherings. And I did the learning and development initiatives and it just brought me so much joy. But then later on in 2016, my best friend of over a decade was diagnosed with stage four brain cancer.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it was a moment that created such a significant shift in my life. Because while I was still being the high performer and the one who's remembering people's birthdays and planning the Christmas party, I also was one of her caregivers. And I remember having to take her to her doctor's appointments or to pick up her medications because she lost the ability to drive. So while I'm balancing being a therapist and and helping to be the glue of the team, I also was a caregiver and all of those responsibilities, of course, weighed very heavily on me. So I thought to myself, I was like, well, this is kind of the thing that you share with your bosses and with your team. And so I took it upon myself to let them know what was going on.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Initially, they were very in tune with me. They were very in sync with me. And they understood what I needed in terms of support. But then about six months later, something shifted and we became out of step. Because all of a sudden, the message had changed from where your work family and we're here for you to support you to maybe you should compartmentalize things and maybe you shouldn't really talk about your best friend here at work. And I just remember feeling that that change, right? Kind of like we talked about in the music, when something changes, you adapt accordingly. Well, I felt that shift and that betrayal and I adapted accordingly by pulling back. And I made the decision then to leave that role and to join another.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  And unfortunately, within the first month of taking that new role, my best friend Laura passed away from cancer. But the difference there was that these people were very much in tune with me. Because I had zero hours of PTO accrued and they donated three weeks to me to give me enough time to grieve. They asked me to share about Laura to keep her legacy alive and they really, they they were so in step with what I needed to be successful, both personally and professionally. And it just was such a reparative experience that that moment transformed everything for me because it showed me, one, what can happen when we're disconnected from one another? When we're not in tune with one another.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  But two, how powerful it is when we become in tune, when we're able to read each other and we're able to show up and support. That it can be healing and it can be reparative and it's what allowed me to become a speaker and talk about what I talk about today.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Wow, that is incredible. So thank you for telling that story. And thank you for being such a great friend as she was going through that difficult time and now keeping her legacy alive by sharing that story. Because there are so many people who are listening that are going to gain strength and understanding from this message. And one of the things that I'm I'm feeling compelled to talk about here is boundaries and choosing right for yourself versus grit and resilience. Now, because there there will be a faction of people who say, well, you know, that's just life. You gotta go through the the tough, toxic workplaces and just be tougher than the circumstances.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  And then you also have the side where you would say, hey, you have to respect boundaries. If people are infringing upon those boundaries, you have to choose right for yourself. For those people who feel like they need to suffer through toxicity because that's what you should do or what work is. What would you say to that?

• 12:04Speaker 00

  I think that's a moment for self-reflection in terms of what messaging we've received about what work should be. Because I don't think that having a healthy work environment is mutually exclusive from having a high performing or a high functioning workplace or one that brings you fulfillment. I think often workplaces actually traumatize us and we come away thinking, everybody should just have to deal with this. I made it through, so you should be able to grit your teeth and bear it as well, right? But why can't we imagine something better for ourselves? Why do we feel the need to pass that trauma down onto the next generation of people that are coming into the workforce? Or the next person that takes on a role, right?

• 12:46Speaker 00

  So I think that there's some programming there around what it means to have, to be strong in the workplace. That it shouldn't mean that strength equals suffering, that instead you can be strong and still honor your boundaries and still recognize what your limits are. I don't think that they're mutually exclusive.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  I agree 100% and it's funny because it reminds me of the saying, hurts people hurt people. So if you have been hurt before, it makes you more likely to hurt other people in the same type of way, keeping the cycle going. And one of the sneaky ways this manifests itself is in jealousy. And so here's an example of going to tell on myself. So I remember when I was graduating law school, passing the bar. This bar is the biggest, scariest test you could have ever imagined. Three days, 15 hours, and you only get two opportunities to take it in every year, February and July. And the way they let you know whether you pass is it is by posting a public PDF for the world to see of survivors.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  If your name is not on the list, you you didn't make it, sorry. So public humiliation in terms of the fact, hey, you won't be able to eat because you're not a lawyer. Horrible. I remember my hands literally shaking almost cartoonishly as I was trying to type missing letters because my hands were shaking that much. And I remember thinking, I'm having to learn, I'm having to regurgitate this information on practice areas that I'll I'll never utilize. Agency law, criminal law, constitutional law, et cetera. But I had to learn all of those things and then pass this test. I said, this is so silly. It should be shorter. And now I find out that they shortened the bar exam from three days to two.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  And my first reaction was, what?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  You you need to suffer like I did. Make it three days again. You're not a real lawyer. And then I said, oh, Kwame, go go seek help.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Go to a quiet place and journal. You're you're not giving any substance here. You're just jealous, okay? So I think it's an opportunity for self-reflection to say, if you do have that knee jerk response of saying, well, you just gotta suffer through some things sometimes. Sometimes there are circumstances that you fundamentally truly cannot change, okay? And we we can accept that and we can also recognize that we might be in a place where we have more agency, autonomy and freedom to then give ourselves permission to accept better if we have the opportunity to.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Exactly. Well, and I think what you're also alluding to is kind of this idea of like paying your dues, right? Like, everybody needs to pay their dues and unless you pay your dues exactly the way that I did it, you're not as competent or capable or as good as I am. But I think that that is a limiting mindset because the the idea that everyone should have to go through the exact same process, that we can't innovate or change or alter it based off of now knowing better, right? But to your point, by perhaps shortening the exam and making it more focused, perhaps that means that people are going to be less generalizably knowledgeable when it comes to law.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  But maybe they have more specific knowledge that's beneficial to their clients and will make them stronger lawyers in their particular area of study. The same goes for anything that we do in life. It's like we we shouldn't have to make other people go through the same painful experiences just because that's how it's always been done. And I think that that mentality, if that's how we've always done it, so we're going to do it that way going forward, it really limits us and holds us back.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Really does, really does. You're you're spot on. I remember a little fun fact. It took me 12 years, 12 years to go a full year without having a nightmare about the bar exam.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  Wow. Oh, my gosh. It was that was traumatic.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Oh, it was dramatic. It was horrible. It was horrible. But I'm a lawyer.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  You're a lawyer. You made it.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  I made it.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  So let's talk about another one of your big swings. Because from being a rock star, you transitioned from being a rock star to being a clinician and now public speaker. These are very different careers, very different. And, you know, I would be, it would be interesting, though impossible, to see how many people in the history of humanity who have done those three things within the timeframe. And you've done it. You're statistically very unique.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  It might be party of one.

• 17:23Speaker 01

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• 18:08Speaker 01

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• 18:53Speaker 01

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• 19:35Speaker 00

  Well, I think that for me, one, I have ADHD. And so I'm gonna be honest, I get bored. And so I think about what's the next iteration? How do I apply the skills that I've gained from this previous version of myself into the next thing that I'm doing? And I, and I think that that's actually beneficial. And even people that don't have ADHD can benefit from that mindset. Because I'm not doing things that are so vastly different. Even when I look at being a drummer, I can see how that has now influenced who I am as a speaker. Right? And even the work that I've done with writing this book, it very much played a role. But it's just simply taking the skills that I, that I gleaned

• 20:16Speaker 00

  from those past versions of myself and applying them to this new version of myself. And, and what I've found that helps me along the way is I try my best, even as a person with a lot of anxiety, I try to trust myself. I trust myself to figure out what the next step is going to be, even if I have no idea how it's gonna pan out. When I started as a professional speaker back in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, I, I had no idea that it was going to take off the way that it was going to take off. I, I didn't think that people really cared about what I had to say because I just saw myself as a therapist. And I was like, oh, well, there's lots of therapists out there. Like, what makes me different?

• 20:57Speaker 00

  But it was finding this intersection of work and clinical expertise and knowledge that really got me to this place of something special, like a special sauce that I can bring to companies or bring to conferences. So it's about finding your special sauce. It's about trusting in yourself that you don't have to know ten steps ahead. You just have to know one ahead. And to discover what are those transferable skills that you have from the previous version of yourself that will help you in this next iteration of who you're becoming.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  Brilliant. Yeah, I think this is, this is huge because I remember how terrified I was when people would say, what's your five-year plan, ten-year plan? I'm like, ooh, you guys are thinking that far in advance? I don't know, I don't know who I'm gonna be. I don't know my interests, those will shift. And they've shifted significantly for me, too. So recognizing that you just need to know what the next step is, that gives people a lot of confidence. Because I know people get like tripped up on that. They say, I know what to do next, but I don't even know what comes after that. A lot of high performers don't. They just do it and figure it out.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  Exactly. Well, and I could never have predicted, really, in twenty nineteen, I started talking and giving, and giving keynote speeches. But it was really twenty twenty when I joined Clubhouse. I don't know if anybody listening remembers this app, Clubhouse. I mean, I don't know if you remember, it was like all the rave in twenty twenty, twenty twenty-one because we were in the midst of the pandemic. We couldn't go out and socialize. And so I joined Clubhouse, I got the invite. And that's really where I started to develop my platform and quickly gained hundreds of thousands of followers from my club, Mental Health Matters. Well, when I first joined Clubhouse, I just joined because I was bored. I was lonely, I was like, I, I'm trapped inside all day. I don't know how else to engage with people but to be online.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  And it became something, and that became the jumping off point where I met Amy Cuddy, who wrote the foreword for my book. I could have never predicted that, right? NPR was my, one of my first big speaking engagements that came through Clubhouse, right? It laid the foundation in a way that I could have never anticipated. So if I had just sat back and thought to myself, well, I need to wait until I have a one-year, five-year, ten-year plan, I would have never had this progression in my career. It was just simply taking a chance, getting on an app, talking and yapping to people, and discovering that people cared about what I had to say that allowed me to get to this point.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Amazing, amazing. And I think one of the, the most profound things about this that I can't get out of my head is I should have jumped on Clubhouse now. Like, ah, this is silly, I'm not gonna do this.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  It was a game changer, I cannot lie. Like, it connected me to so many people.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  That is great, good for you, good for you. Good for you, friend.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Now, people, people are gonna say, hmm, I didn't find comedy with a jealous type, but it's coming out strong today.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  This is so cool because essentially, tell me if this resonates because it sounds like you didn't wait for anything to be perfect. You said, listen, I'm, I see the shot, I'm gonna take the shot, and I'm going to take this to the logical conclusion and then see what happens next.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, exactly. And, and since then, right? With new platforms that have come out, I just, I kind of anticipate that it could be a boom or a bust, right? Like, some people got on TikTok in those early days of the pandemic, and they now have millions of followers. I missed that opportunity. I didn't get on it in time to be able to hit that, that big swing up in terms of followership. And so sometimes you have to just jump on things. And the reason honestly I didn't jump on TikTok is because I told myself, this is a platform where people are dancing, right? I'm not a dancer, I, I don't know how to do this, and it's just not meant for me. And, and look, I'm paying the price now. I, I have a decent platform there, but it could have been millions had I jumped on it.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  So sometimes you just have to go with your intuition. There was something in my intuition that told me there's something special about this app, and there's something different about it, and I wanna explore it without any expectation. And what came out of it, honestly, it's, it's very strange to say, but I can pinpoint Clubhouse as the moment that my career changed. It really transformed my life. It introduced me to the TED community, where I've now gotten to, to present workshops at TED Women and TED Next. I mean, none of these things would have come had I not been on that app at the exact moment that I was on that app.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Unbelievable, kudos to you. And this is, let's talk about intuition, friend. Because I, it's funny, because when you think about the words intuition, instinct, gut, there, there is a nexus between all of these things. And tell me if, if this resonates with you, because for me, being trained in psychology, that was my undergrad degree, there was a high degree of skepticism about these things, where those were associated also with bias. Hey, that you just have a gut reaction, that's not legitimate. You should use system two processing to quote, thinking fast and slow, it's so much better. Now, I want you to, to kind of reconcile these differences because sometimes for people who are very academic, especially if they're well-schooled in psychology,

• 26:18Speaker 01

  there has been essentially a bias against bias, intuition and judgment, like quick judgment like that versus deeper thinking. Tell me how you reconcile the two.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  A lot of the research that has come out recently has shown this deep connection between our brain and our gut. So when we're talking about a gut instinct or a gut intuition, we're talking about our brain and our body sensing something simultaneously, and it's showing up as a somatic sensation, a body sensation in our gut. So it's not just this random feeling that you're getting. It's actually informed by something that your brain is perceiving and is now coming through in your body, in your physiology. So when we're talking about our intuition, we're really talking about those physiological responses, and there's something to be said for that. Like, we're sensing beings. Not everything is a logical thought, right?

• 27:11Speaker 00

  There is something about perceptiveness, there's something to be said for really being in tune with what's happening within in order to discern what's safe, what's unsafe, in order to know that this is a good move versus not a great move in this moment. And so the people that poo-poo the, the gut intuition or the gut instinct are kind of missing some of the scientific discoveries in recent years that have shown that this is actually a real thing. And when our guts are off, right? Then that is something that we need to be attending to and paying attention to. Now, here's the caveat I'll give you, and this is, as, as a therapist and somebody who works with people that have coped a lot with anxiety or have had, you know, trauma in their past, sometimes their gut instinct can be thrown off a little bit, right?

• 27:57Speaker 00

  So there, there's a bit of a disconnect there where anxiety will tell you that everything feels dangerous. And so that is a situation where you have to be a little bit more discerning with your gut because you have to be able to distinguish what is truly dangerous to me and what just simply feels uncomfortable. But that discomfort is just simply telling me I'm, I'm expanding my horizons in some way, right? That's where I find people needing to do a little bit of work and getting in better tune with themselves and, and managing the anxiety so that they can tease out what's truly intuition versus anxiety talking.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so good. Because I've never heard that, that juxtaposition there, intuition versus anxiety, because that definitely can throw off the calculation. And when I think about the term, the, the phrase, trust your gut, I can, there are certain times where I can trust my gut to be right and certain times when I can trust my gut to be wrong. So here's what I mean. So there are times where I say, okay, if there is a, a shot that I'm thinking of taking and I, I see it, but I don't know if I'm good enough for it. If I run that idea past my friends and I say, my gut is saying I shouldn't do this, but I talk to all of my friends and my teammates, and they say, actually, no, you can definitely handle this. It was, oh, that was a little insecurity flaring up. I trust the friends, the cohort of friends that I've created, more so than my gut.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  So this is a time where I will introduce a little bit of skepticism to my gut because I know it can be thrown off because of these types of factors. But in other situations, it's really just high degrees of pattern recognition, patterns that have been encoded over time in meaningful ways that we cannot articulate. Oh, my gosh, this is gonna be my first time telling this story. This is fantastic. It's one of the stories that starts off super cringe but lands the plane, I promise. So there's, and Google this, call me on this, because it's gonna sound stupid. But there is a job that is called a chicken sexer. A chicken sexer, have you heard?

• 29:54Speaker 00

  Oh, not at all.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  So this is a person who, whose job is to look at chicks, like baby chickens and roosters, and distinguish between whether or not the, it's a male or a female, which is actually a very, very important distinction because it, the, the female chickens, they have much more financial value than a rooster. Because, for obvious reasons, right? And so the ability to distinguish between the two sexes at an early stage is critical. But it can't be done by, by machinery, it has to be done by humans. But what's interesting is that the humans that do it cannot explain, they can't articulate what it is that they're seeing or sensing in order to make that distinction.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  So it's, it's a job that's pure instinct, pure instinct. So it's, it's really interesting to see at, at a, at a very- I don't wanna, I don't know if I should say high level, but meaningful level within that industry, it is a job that is pure instinct. So using psychological terminology, pure system one, zero system two.

• 31:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Fascinating.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  It is fascinating. And I think that there's a lot of examples of that, right? Where we just kind of have to go based off of what the patterns are, what we've experienced in the past to inform what our future, you know, outcomes may or may not be. I think that's really interesting. I can also imagine that for a lot of, you know, even physicians, like, yes, you're looking at like hundreds of people in a week, but you notice certain patterns amongst different people. And so that tells you, hmm, this person should get a second opinion. Hmm, I should order a scan for this person. Huh, this just looks like a standard thing, right? There's, there's a bit of intuition. Of course, there is some concrete evidence there too. Like you're looking at a, a patch of skin, you see something

• 31:43Speaker 00

  off. Okay, great. But what, what determines who gets the, the MRI, who gets the CAT scan versus who just gets the thing removed, right? Who gets the blood test, right? There's gotta be some sort of intuitiveness that comes into that.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Right. Very, it's fascinating. A quick, Simone, check in Google sec, uh, Google chicken sexer, make sure I'm not having a Quam AI hallucination. Because if I am, we need to aggressively edit them.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  We'll find another example. I didn't do that one.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  It's good. We're good. Okay, cool. Feel free to keep this in. I think it's, it's fun.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  That is fun.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it exists. And I've seen the other side. I have a friend that wanted to be a farmer. And, and he bought a lot of chickens and then all of them were male. So he lost all his money because he couldn't recognize it. So he had to find a guy like this, say, hey, I, I was scammed. So can you help me now?

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Wow. High stakes, right? That's a high stakes moment.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Look at that vindication.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Okay. So for you, Nidhi, when you're thinking about you as a clinician and you now as a workplace expert, there are probably times where you can go in and you can diagnose or recognize something, but you can't give words to it. Maybe you're talking to somebody and you've seen enough people manifesting in a certain, manifesting certain problems or challenges, and they haven't explicitly said anything or even hinted to it, but you sensed maybe this is the thing. Does that resonate with you in your experience too?

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Oh, it happens all the time. I, I actually, when I'm working with a client, I, I am constantly searching for patterns. I'm constantly listening for what's not being said, just as much as what is actually being communicated to me. And part of being a good therapist is being attuned. So you have to be able to recognize change, subtle shifts in demeanor. You have to be able to notice, uh, different ways that their emotions or regulation changes. And often it's what's not being said that I pick up on that is really telling the true story. So I'll give you an example, right? Like often clients will come to me and they'll be talking about how, you know, they had all of these relationships growing up that had

• 34:02Speaker 00

  a similar pattern. Like, for example, you know, they grew up with parents that were not emotionally present for them. And so now in every relationship going forward, they tend to kind of seek out the comfort of somebody who is also not emotionally present for them. And they keep wondering and questioning, like, why am I doing this? Like, I, I know it's not good for me. I know it's not somebody who is meant for me. This is not my person. Yet there's something that magnetizes me to them. And they can't quite put to, into words what's happening. And that's where I let them know. It's because this feels familiar to your nervous system. Like when you have grown up in certain kinds of environments, you then through a process of both pattern recognition and seeking out what's familiar

• 34:46Speaker 00

  and safe, will find the toxic person who's emotionally disconnected from you because that's what you grew up with. And when that is what felt safe to you growing up, or at least was something that you became accustomed to, anything that's outside of that is going to be, to bring discomfort to you. So when they do eventually find that, that healthy relationship or healthy workplace or whatever it is, healthy something, they push it away because it feels dysregulating to their nervous system. They're like, ew, something feels off about this. It feels too vulnerable. I feel exposed. And, and I have to let them know in those moments, well, yeah, because let's look at the thread that we're pulling through all of these different experiences, right? It's, it's interesting how deep the

• 35:30Speaker 00

  roots are that influence the growth of the tree that becomes our life.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Wow, that's fascinating. And it shows again, you didn't just come about this magically. There was a lot of research that you did and studying that you did before this, but then you have so many reps interacting with people who have these types of patterns. And then when we widen our perspective and think about how this applies to the audience, just, it shows the value of having conversations with people who are different from you, who have a different background. Because the more interactions you have with people, the more you can start to spot and see these types of patterns in folks. And I don't know if you, this, you can relate to this, but sometimes if you start to get really good

• 36:15Speaker 01

  at this, it feels almost like mind reading. So you, you take a shot in the dark. So might be off. You didn't say this, but is it A, B, C? They're like, oh my gosh, yes. And so most likely one, two, three, yes. Oh my gosh, I didn't know. I'm like, I'm magical.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Exactly. I see through your thoughts.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  It's so interesting because what's cool is that it could break open a conversation. Because you do that with the right tone and the right level of curiosity. It gives them permission to then share more. And you could really deepen a relationship quickly if you can start to identify these patterns.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And it deepens their insight too, right? Because we all have our blind spots. We all have our, our areas where we keep, continue to recreate patterns. But if we can just have somebody just gently notice it, say it back to us, see us in it, then the next time that they're in a relationship or the next time that they're seeking out something that's healthy, they now know their tendencies and they can shift the way that they're showing up. So instead of pushing things away that feel different or feel uncomfortable, they start to gently and slowly open themselves up to that. And, and it leads to a much more fulfilling life, right? So it's, it's really where the discomfort lies. That's where our growth edges are. And we have to be willing to lean into those areas as opposed to escaping

• 37:35Speaker 00

  or avoiding them.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Right. Hmm. When I, when you think about your career and the changes that you've made, what role does curiosity play in the directionality of your life?

• 37:50Speaker 00

  A ton. I mean, I, I think I'm always asking questions. I'm always wondering, well, why isn't this working differently or better? Huh, you're facing this problem. I'm curious what you've already tried or what isn't working about it. There's always, um, there's a thirst within me to figure out a way to do it better so that people can function better and, and feel more fulfilled or, or come away feeling happier and healthier. And so curiosity is huge to me. And, but I think that, you know, it's, it's about how you show up and are able to disarm people so that when you are curious, they don't take it as an interrogation. Because sometimes, right? When we're curious, we're asking 20 questions. And if you haven't

• 38:33Speaker 00

  already developed the, the rapport or reduced the defensiveness of the other person, it can feel like you're dissecting them or trying to, right? Read too much into it. And so I try to be cognizant of that and, and instead spend a lot of time, um, trying to understand their perspective before I start trying to figure out how to iterate and do it differently.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Brilliant. Yeah. Cause it can feel invasive at times, especially when the person hasn't fully processed things themselves. And then you're trying to steer the ship in a different direction. It feels almost, uh, they didn't give you permission yet. And what's interesting I found is that, um, there are certain kinds of people who do this very well because it's necessary for them to, to be where they are. Entrepreneurs are very adept in their thinking. And so you hear entrepreneurs talk, go, somebody will say something and then somebody says, oh, that's cool. Did you try it this way? Oh, immediately, the conversation veers off, but it's, it's completely okay. It's just kind of the pattern of, of the relationship. But being willing to, to make those adjustments and give people that privacy if they're not

• 39:36Speaker 01

  ready to go deeper, that's important because it can be like a cross examination. I, that's one of the things, especially when you've spent a lot of time learning about communication, you can see the tells, you could read the body language. And sometimes it can feel like mind reading in a way that the person isn't comfortable sharing. So what I've started to do is, for instance, if the person, if I say, hey, how are you doing? And they're like, I'm okay. I was like, I hear the tone and everything. I say, okay. So friend Kwame is giving you an option. Would you like me to let that slide or do you need a friend to talk to about what's really going on?

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Love that.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so it, it allows them to feel seen, but also give them the option for privacy if they really aren't ready to share.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  That's right. Exactly. And I think that by asking permission, which is exactly what you did there, people need that. They want to feel like they have agency and control in their interactions. And so if somebody does want to let it slide, great. That doesn't, you could also circle back with them at a later time. Like, hey, I just wanted to check back in with you. How are you doing now? And they may open up that second or third time that you check in down the line. But if they are willing to share, wonderful, then you can show up and, and be there and listen. I, the, the problem comes into play where we try to fix it, or we try to offer platitudes, or we then are connecting, oh, I know exactly how you feel. People tend to want to put distance between themselves and you because it just, they don't feel validated. It feels very disconnected.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Yes. One of the, the fun things that I've started doing in situations like that. Cause you have to understand, some, sometimes somebody hits you with something you weren't expecting it. You don't know what to say. I'm a communication expert. I don't know what to say either, a lot of times too. And so what I'll say, what I've said that has actually kind of broken the ice in some cases, is when I, when somebody hits me with something that's deeper than I realize and it's a source of pain and things like that, I'll say, I'll first empathize and say, I could not imagine how difficult that is. I'm really sorry that you're going through that. There's nothing that I can do to make it feel better, but if you'd like, I can give you some meaningless platitudes about how everything's going to feel better eventually. Would you like?

• 41:43Speaker 00

  If that's what you want, I got you.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  And so that usually leads to a laugh because that's probably what everybody's been hitting with. Well, you know what? Things are going to get better. It's like, dude, you don't know that.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Exactly. Stop trying to make me feel better. I want to be like in the darkness right now. Let me be in the darkness.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yes. Sometimes we need a pity party, you know?

• 42:04Speaker 00

  That's true. Funny.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  It's great. This is why I was so excited to have you back on.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so we have the book. We need to make sure I I I show that I have this. First of all, one of the many reasons I love this is because it reminds me of a tequila sunrise.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  Ah, see, that was an intentional choice.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Who love this? This is great. Now, so one thing about folks who write books, the and for audience, if you're ever thinking about writing a book, you might be dragging your feet because you say, oh, I've gotten new ideas, new ideas. Guess what? You're never going to stop having new ideas. Your book is never done because you're never done growing. And so every author, as soon as they write their books, they they become more brilliant as time passes. I'm sure you have. So now, if you could go back and add a single thing to this book working well, what would you add?

• 42:58Speaker 00

  I would add illustrations. I wish I had illustrations in my book. I don't know why I didn't think about this. Um, because yeah, I'm actually a very visual learner. And and I think that there are so many great ideas in the book that could have been expanded upon or made more concrete with just a simple illustration. And so it's actually a big regret of mine. I think about it all the time. I'm like, God, why didn't I think about that? But I I it just didn't cross my mind. It obviously didn't cross my editors' minds either. I don't know why. Um, but that that's a thing that I wish that I'd had in there. I think one other thing that I wish that I had done is

• 43:41Speaker 00

  there are a lot of really great frameworks, right? Um, and and there's stories, of course, to help to tell, to help to make an example out of the framework, to help become an exemplar. I wish that something that I could have done would be to maybe incorporate even more of myself, because I think I incorporate a good portion of myself in the beginning sections of the book. But towards like the middle and towards the end, it's much more like this, it has a bit more of like the, here's how other business leaders have done it, or here's, you know, some pop culture references, or here's kind of bits and pieces of what I've seen in the clients that I've worked with, but maybe less of myself. And I think that it would have been cool to have a little bit more of a through line of here's

• 44:24Speaker 00

  me throughout this book, you know? So hindsight 2020, but those are a couple of things that in just initially come off, come initially off the bat come to mind.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  That's fascinating. That's fascinating. So with the next book, it'll be a biography. You'll illustrate yourself that.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Hey, if I was an artist, unless we want stick figures.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  That would be memorable, though.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  It would be memorable. It would be memorable.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Cool. This is so with this, we're going to ask you some quick questions. Really great for TikTok because you're a TikTok star. We are speaking it into existence.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Okay, so we'll try to get these answers out in sixty to ninety seconds. Okay. Question numero uno, Spanish words of the day. Attunement versus emotional intelligence? What's the difference in one sentence?

• 45:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 45:20Speaker 01

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• 46:04Speaker 01

  Shopify.com slash Kwame. Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to hear your first.

• 46:12Speaker 01

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• 46:56Speaker 01

  on your order and three hundred and sixty-five day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings only. That's the best way to support the show.

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Oh, Lord. Okay. What sentence, eh? Um, okay, let's see. Emotional intelligence is a cognitive and emotional process, thinking and feeling. Attunement is a neurobiological process. It's your physiology syncing up to another person alongside the thinking and the feeling.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Okay, great. So I'm a nerd. I need more. Um, so we're taking a step away.

• 47:37Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  So go deeper, because we think about emotional intelligence as a skill that can be developed and honed. Since this is neurobiological, can it be developed in the same way?

• 47:46Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Oh, yes. Yeah. So with emotional intelligence, it is kind of a foundational element of attunement. I think of attunement as an evolution of emotional intelligence because you're really looking at how you're showing up, how your demeanor, your tone of voice, your cadence, how your perception of the other person is not only influencing how you show up, but how they're receiving and perceiving you. And you're adapting moment to moment to meet their need accordingly, right? So that's how we deepen connection. So when I'm talking about physiologically, I'm talking about how they did research studies that found that when we're in connection with one another, our hormones sync up, our

• 48:25Speaker 00

  heart rates sync up, our neurons start firing similarly. We quite literally, biologically, become in tune with one another. And when we're out of step with one another, then that's where we start to feel like, ooh, I don't know that I want to talk to this person or come back to them again. So subtle things that we can do, open body language, leaning in instead of leaning away, shifting down the the tone of your voice. So to show empathy, compassion, not speaking super quickly because that evokes anxiety. Instead, if somebody's anxious, changing the cadence of the delivery. All of these different skills are core to becoming more attuned. And there's actually four key skills that I can get into with you that we that we discovered. Okay, you want me to go into it? All right, great. There's

• 49:10Speaker 00

  four key skills, um, four key skills that are the crux of attunement. Flexibility, reading cues, self-regulation, and collaboration. Flexibility, meaning that you're agile in the way that you're thinking and receiving what not only the other person is giving to you, but how you're showing up for the other person. You're able to adapt accordingly. Reading cues, meaning that you're able to gauge facial expressions, body language, how somebody is showing up in the interaction. Self-regulation, meaning that you notice when your own discomfort is starting to rise up and get in the way of the of how you're showing up in the interaction. And then collaboration, meaning that you're an allied

• 49:51Speaker 00

  front. You determine goals that are in alignment with both people, and you reach them accordingly. And there's also this bidirectional input there, where not only are you learning, or the other person is learning from you, you're also learning from them, and and it forges a deeper relationship.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  That's brilliant. This is so, so good. Because the way I'm thinking about it is my my framework compassionate curiosity, acknowledge and validate emotions, get curious with compassion, joint problem solving. It sounds like a high degree of attunement is the foundation that maximizes compassionate curiosity.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly, exactly. And if we can just notice when we're in step and out of step and adjust, it's not always lost. If you notice that somebody is feeling maybe disconnected or you're feeling disconnected from them, just these subtle changes can help to reestablish the connection so that there's safety and trust that is maintained in the relationship.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  What is the most common thing leaders say when someone is struggling that they should stop saying immediately?

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Hmm. The biggest mistake that leaders make is they say they shift gears too quick. They shift gears from being empathetic into problem solving. So you come to a leader, you share with them that you're struggling with caregiving for your elderly parent. They give you two minutes of empathy. Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Uh, I can only imagine how hard it is. And then all of a sudden, now it's like, okay, but what is this going to mean in terms of meeting your deadlines? What does this mean in terms of taking time off? How are you going to be able to balance responsibilities? It it invalidates all of the empathy and compassion that you just showed. So pause on that. Don't dive right into logistics. Instead, stay with the other person. And there will be a time later on,

• 51:41Speaker 00

  perhaps in a different conversation, that you can start to problem solve, but that is not the moment to do it.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Wow. So it's almost like the leader bot says, hmm, this unit of product. Needs what is called empathy. Let me give them forty three seconds of empathy and then refocus them to extract more value.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  Exactly. Cannot compute more emotions. It's like, ah, it feels like, it's like, no, no, no, no. Let's be a human, a human being and let's connect heart to heart with this person.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yes, like, listen, listen, bro, if you don't care, just tell me that's.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  At least just show me who you are so I don't come to you again with the thing, you know, like, gosh.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  That's so funny. That's great. That is great. Okay, so number three, what is the check-in framework in ten words or fewer?

• 52:31Speaker 00

  Basically, the check-in framework provides you with the language and the skills to connect more effectively. So it's all about being able to engage in curiosity, hold space, explore supports, congruently respond, know how to repair and interrupt your own discomfort.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Okay, if you have thirty seconds before a difficult conversation, what does tuning into yourself look like?

• 52:59Speaker 00

  Tuning into yourself means a couple of things. One is noticing what's happening in your mind and body. Is your heart racing? Or is your body tense? Are you noticing that your breathing is becoming more wagged? What are you thinking and feeling? And then being able to regulate that. So breathing, being able to ground yourself, making sure that you're physiologically calm. Because calm body equals calm mind. You gotta calm your body down in order to calm your thoughts and your emotions down.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Okay, another question now. What is the best way to calm your body down before a difficult conversation?

• 53:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, so my favorite quick technique to do is breathing. You have to regulate your breathing first and foremost. So I use a technique called four, seven, eight breathing. You breathe in through your nose for four seconds, hold in the breath for seven seconds, and then exhale through your mouth for eight seconds. And if you do that just three to five times, research shows it'll lower your blood pressure, slow down your heart rate, provide more oxygen to your brain so you can think more clearly. It just calms your physiology down a little bit.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Interesting. So quick note outside of the lightning round. So I was at an event where it was Jim Quick. He had his, uh, his new release of his new book and there was a sleep researcher. Simone, can you see if you get his name? It's Dr. Bruce something, but a high, highly ranked sleep researcher. And I was telling him about my insomnia. And he introduced that same breathing framework. And it was the first time I heard it. This was just Saturday. This is interesting. So is this a new thing? Because box breathing was what was really, uh, uh, you know, catching on the four, four, four? Four?

• 54:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, four, four, four, four. Um, it's, it's not necessarily newer. It's been around for a couple of years, but it is one of the most effective strategies. And I think that's why people are starting to realize it can be helpful for sleep because it calms the mind down, it helps to slow things down and just allow your brain to enter a state where it's more rested and restful, it's prepared for rest. But it's, I also use this breathing technique before any speaking engagement. I remember like just a few months ago, I was speaking in front of thirty five hundred people and I could feel my heart racing. And I just paused right before I got on stage. I did three to five of those breaths.

• 55:27Speaker 00

  My heart rate, even on my Apple Watch, came down by like fifteen to twenty beats. I mean, it was, it was pretty significant. So it's very effective.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Amazing. Very, very interesting. Quick question. When you were on stage, when you actually physically were on stage in front of thirty five hundred, how did that feel versus about three hundred to five hundred?

• 55:49Speaker 00

  You know, interesting. So the first, uh, this was like a speaking tour, um, through Canada. And the first gig that I did of the speaking tour had about eight hundred. I was more anxious going in front of those eight hundred than I was the thirty five hundred. It was really strange to me because I fully expected to maybe have a mini panic attack before I got in front of the thirty five hundred. It was huge. It was just like, all you could see was just bodies going all the way to the back of the room. But there was something about eight hundred people sitting there and looking at me and really being, like, waiting for me to deliver my message that felt a bit more intimidating.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  It also, to be fair, was the first of the four gigs. And so I think also it was the anticipation of, okay, this is it. Like, let's see how this is received. And, um, and I, and by the time I'd hit like the three thousand and thirty five hundred gigs of the next three in that, in that tour, I had felt more prepared because I'd already delivered it and it had already been well received by the first group. So there was also the, the experience factor there.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  That makes sense. Because the reason I was asking, because I had a big gig, um, last month. And it was weird because it was the first time I didn't feel any nerves and it was by far the biggest audience that I had. And I was thinking, I was actually concerned about how little I was feeling. I felt the way, the way I'm feeling right now chatting with you is how I was feeling going up on stage.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  And I was saying, am I broken? Did I, did I usually feel something? Because it was seven thousand, um, live and then up, up to four hundred thousand live online. Um, yeah, so it was huge. And so I talked to some of the other speakers who had, had more experience at that level before. And they say it's, this is something that a lot of speakers say, because you get to a group where it's three hundred, five hundred, two hundred, eight hundred. Though you can, you can quantify, you can conceptualize, those are individuals. But once you get over two thousand, three thousand, it's, it's a blob. It's like not even people anymore.

• 57:51Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah. It's so true. And also, I feel like when you're on stage with that number of people, it's almost like, um, I, I hope this doesn't come across weird, but it's like, it, it almost feels like a performance in a way, in a different way than it does with, with just a few hundred. With a few hundred, it's like much more intimate. But when you're, when you're four hundred thousand, it's like, okay, now I'm like performing, like I'm, I am here to, to almost act this out in a way, you know, it's, it's very interesting. It feels different.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay, glad, glad I'm not the weird one here.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  No.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  When two people are weird together, it becomes cool.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  It becomes cool and normal.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now it's normal.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. Well, and it's so interesting that you shared that because before I went in front of the thirty five hundred people, I remember initially, like, yes, when I was backstage and I was really thinking about it, I, I felt the nerves. But then as they were announcing me and doing my intro to come on stage, it was like, whoosh, I felt so calm and at peace. And I was like, this is very strange. Like, I have never, it's very rare for me to feel that way because I'm an anxious person. But yeah, something, something shifted.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  There we go. See, everybody, if you have stage fright, you just need bigger eyes.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Oh, man, this is good. Okay, ooh, this is a good one. What is the cue that tells you that somebody wants presence, not advice?

• 59:18Speaker 00

  Wow, that's a great one. The cue for me is, well, one, I, I actually, let me go back. I don't actually give advice unless, unless it's requested. So, so that I think is a foundational thing people need to keep in mind. If people want advice from you, they will literally ask for your thoughts. They'll say, what do you think about that? Or, huh, I'm thinking about doing this. What, how would you do it? They will ask you for the advice, yet we assume that people desire our advice. So unless somebody directly asks me for it, or unless I have provided them that option as part of the menu and they have chosen and selected it, I do not give advice. And people listening are probably like, but you're a therapist. Isn't that your job to give advice? No, that's not my job.

• 1:00:03Speaker 00

  My job is not to give advice. My job is to listen and to help, to reflect back what people are saying with insight, right? And, and I do that in all of my relationships, even out of the, the sessions, right? Even with my friends and family, I'm simply reflecting back what they're sharing. And they come to their own conclusions as a result of my reflections. It's very rare that I'll sit there and say, this is what you should do, or here's what I really think about this. It's only when it's requested of me that I give that.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Yes. Would you, would it, would it be fair to say that this is very Rogerian in thoughts, like Carl Rogers' approach to just holding up the mirror?

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  Yes, definitely. And there's a lot of power behind that because I think people ultimately have the answers within them. That is the whole core of therapy, is that I am not an expert sitting across from you with all of the answers. The answers exist within you. It's just simply sometimes processing and talking it out loud and being able to have a space with someone who can reflect it back allows you to access those insights and action on them.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Amazing, amazing. Quick note for all of the listeners. Um, if we can turn my name into a concept, that'd be great. Quamarian. Listen, listen, push that forward. Um, the other thing too, I think selfishly with that strategy, one of the things that you will avoid is the frustration of giving somebody advice and them not taking it. Because usually if you give somebody advice and they don't take it, it's because they didn't want the advice anyway, you know? It was unsolicited in the first place.

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. And then we get annoyed with them. We're like, oh, well, they just keep coming back to me with their problems and they're not listening to me. It's like, but that's not what they need. Who, whose comfort are we prioritizing when we give advice and try to fix it? When we share our own stories, when we offer platitudes, whose comfort are we really prioritizing? It is not the other person's, it's our own. It's our own discomfort with other people's distress that leads us to take those approaches. And it's not because we're, you know, that we're ill-intentioned. That's not what it is. It's that we're well-intentioned, but we're uncomfortable. And to assuage and, and reduce our own discomfort.

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  That's what we do. We fix it. We try to offer platitudes. We connect our own stories and it backfires.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Wow. And it really shows a lot of times a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of presence too. Because in the moment, we might say, all right, this person is feeling bad. Let me distract them with somebody, something. Let me throw in a joke, but the joke, humor can be utilized effectively if it doesn't pull away inappropriately from the initial focus of the interaction. And we have to, this gives us an opportunity to look within ourselves to recognize what we might be doing for the service of other people versus what we're doing for the service of ourselves. Because we are incapable of sitting in that discomfort.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  You're spot on. And the minute that we can start to manage our own discomfort, which is about getting in tune with yourself, it is about regulating your own emotions, then we can provide a much better presence for people. And then they will come back to us time and again as a supportive figure in their lives versus pulling away and feeling like, well, I don't want to go to them because all they're going to do is tell me a million and one things that I could be doing differently. Right? We gain trust when we're able to manage our own emotions and show up in a grounded, present way for the other people in our lives.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  100%. And now let's talk about the other side of this too. Because I am with you with everything that you said. And then there is also the reality where somebody might, it becomes draining at a certain point. And so for the person out there who is constantly present for other people, who is the sounding board, who can receive that emotionality from others to the point where people seek them out for that kind of support. What do you do if you're that person and you start to get drained by the constant barrage of negativity?

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  As a therapist, I had to become really masterful at this because I'm holding space for trauma. I'm holding space for people's worst moments of their lives. And what I had to do is develop a routine for myself. So after I have a hard conversation, I do a couple of things. I physically change out of the clothes that I was wearing during these conversations to signal to my brain that that part of my day, that stress, I'm literally shedding it. So every day I, after my sessions or after a hard conversation with friends or family, I will change into my pajamas. I'll get really comfy. And then the second thing that I do is I plan some sort of decompression activity, ideally something with bilateral movement, which means like going for a walk or working out

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  or going for a bike ride or doing something that engages both sides of my body. Because that allows me to think and process through. But ultimately, what it comes down to is you have to know what your limits are. And we will become resentful as empathetic compassionate people if we ignore those limits. So when you start noticing that you're becoming frustrated or agitated or annoyed that this person keeps coming back to you for support, or you're noticing that you're feeling drained, then sometimes it's okay for you to say, hey, I'd really love to be there for you. Is it okay if I reach back out to you later this week? I just have a really stressful next couple of days, but I want to be there to support you when I have the time and energy to do so.

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Or one of my favorite phrases to say is, I want to be really intentional and present with you. So is it okay if I reach back out to you by Friday so that we can continue the conversation then? People tend to appreciate it that you're keeping them in mind when you're setting the boundary. That is because you want to show up for them in a way that is going to be present and not just doom scrolling or uh huh, uh huh, uh huh through the conversation. And I've never really had somebody push back on that. Most people respect that.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Wow. So good. And never, a lot of that I've never heard before. That's fascinating. Fascinating. Oh, this is great. Um, I've, I have butchered this lightning round because it, my curiosity is too much. Let's just do one more and let's bring, bring Simone in. Ooh, what is one word for what happens in a relationship when a real attunement occurs?

• 1:06:39Speaker 00

  I think there, there's like a vulnerability, almost in a way, in a beautiful way. There's a vulnerability that comes with feeling like the other person really sees and understands you and is truly with you in that moment. Like when I was going through all of that grief, when I've gone through any transition in my life, when people were attuned to me, I felt this like, this deep appreciation and vulnerability with them. And that I, I didn't feel like they took advantage of that or misused it. I felt like it was something that was held in a way that it was, that the, that my openness with them was like precious to them. And there was something really beautiful about being seen and understood in that way.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  That's brilliant. Oh, so cool. So cool. Simone, I know I'm like 20 minutes late, bro.

• 1:07:33Speaker 00

  But this was a good conversation. So we had to keep it rolling.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  Sometimes I struggle to keep my mouth shut to give feedback. So I had a friend and he was starting a podcast. So he wanted to buy a very bad microphone. And I was like, no, no, don't buy it. So I, I told him, hey, don't buy that microphone. You're going to waste your money. He said, no, no, it's fine. So I said, oh my God, what should I do? Are you sure it's fine? He said, yes, it's fine. So he bought it. Then of course the microphone didn't work. And I felt so bad with myself because I knew it was, it wasn't gonna work. So, and, and I, I, I allowed him. Then as he said, it's going to work. I, I said, if you say so, then do it.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  And I felt bad anyway. So when I am in those situations where I feel bad if I give you feedback, feedback, but I feel bad as well if I don't give you feedback and then you make the mistake. What, what is my correct mindset? I don't know what to do.

• 1:08:42Speaker 00

  I think it's so common and the message that I would give you and anybody who struggles with this is that even if you provide feedback, you cannot control the outcome. So just because you tell somebody that this thing is bad for you or is not the, the thing that you want, does not mean that they will still make a decision that's in alignment with the feedback that you gave. And you'll feel bad then that you gave the feedback and they still got the thing, right? So here's the thing, people have to be allowed to make their missteps. What your friend learned is that he probably needs to do more research. He probably should have listened to you all along because this is your area of expertise.

• 1:09:25Speaker 00

  But he needed to make that mistake in order to learn the lesson from it. And yes, it might've been a costly mistake because he probably spent quite a bit of money on this microphone. But nonetheless, sometimes we have to stumble and fall in order to learn the lesson and get up and be more steady on our feet. So that would be my advice is that, you know, you can't control the outcome. You cannot bubble wrap people. And even when you do give feedback, they are ultimately, they have agency and control over their lives. And they are going to make the decisions that they're going to make. Now, what you can do is you can now ask him, hey, you know, let me know if you want some suggestions for my favorite microphones. I'm happy to provide them. And if he says yes, wonderful, then you can give him a list of, of microphones.

• 1:10:08Speaker 00

  But if he says to you, well, Simone, I think I'm going to do my own research and figure it out. Okay, great. You might need to make the mistake again and again in order to learn.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

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• 1:11:00Speaker 01

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• 1:11:45Speaker 01

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• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Great advice. Great advice. One of the things I started doing when I'm giving my friends advice is I give the caveat saying, hey, listen, I'm going to give a lot of advice and you don't need to take any of this. I will not feel bad if you don't take any of that advice. And frankly, I say that for me.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  It's like your liability disclaimer.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Exactly. I'm like, listen, okay, you do what you want, but I need to feel okay. I said my piece and I, I have accepted you'll do whatever you want, you know? And just, it's funny because I, again, going back to what I said earlier about how sometimes your gut instinct can be wrong. I sometimes replace my gut instinct with specific people. When it comes to sound, Simone has final say. I do what Simone tells me to do. I have a friend named Pete Makitas. He has the How to Be Awesome at Your Job podcast. And whenever he has purchased something, I just buy the same thing. Cause I know that he is so data-driven, he will do far more research than I am ever willing to do on the purchase of this $43 item.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  Whatever he has bought, I just buy instantly.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  I know Nick too. I was on his podcast and he definitely knows his stuff. He was like, get this exact microphone. This will be the right one. I mean, he knows, he knows what he's doing.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Right. Did you, so you know the automated emails that we get that says, use this microphone? I just stole it from him.

• 1:13:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's, it's a great strategy because some people do not have the right equipment and it does affect the quality of the podcast, right? So might as well just put it out there. Here's a suggestion.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  That's so funny. This is great. Okay. So let's say hypothetically, if somebody's been listening to this podcast and they say, man, if somebody, if only Nithi put this, all of these ideas into a book, hypothetically, where could they get such a thing?

• 1:14:11Speaker 00

  Well, let me tell you, I've got something for you. There is a, a book that I happen to write. It's titled, Working Well: How to Build a Happier, Healthier Workplace Through the Science of Attunement. It is available at any retailer, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can, uh, the, you can get it on Kindle. You can also get the audiobook version, which is me narrating, which I personally love because you get to hear my personality through the narration of the book. But yeah, all of these ideas and concepts are in the book and it's, I know that the title says, working well, but it is not your typical business book. It is very much personal development. It's very much about getting in tune with yourself so that you can then get in tune with others.

• 1:14:56Speaker 00

  And that is a skillset that not only benefits you at work, but benefits you in every single life domain. So highly recommend checking it out if that's something that you're interested in.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Yes. And you've got our official stamp of approval. Highly recommended. So incredible. Nithi, thank you again for coming back on the show. We really appreciate it.

• 1:15:15Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me. It's, it was such a joy.