Kwame Christian and Codie Sanchez on The Big Deal Podcast - 1 Hour Straight of Negotiation Gold

Learn how to take control, reclaim your freedom, and build a business that works without you. Get Codie's new book: Own Or Be Owned codiesanchez.com

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey everybody. This is a very special episode because it is celebrating my friend Codie Sanchez, who is writing a new book. Her new book, Own or Be Owned: Build a Business So Good That It Doesn't Need You, is coming out today. So if you are an entrepreneur or an aspiring entrepreneur, this is the book that you need to get. I'll tell you, for me, especially as a lawyer, I worked with businesses. I had clients who were entrepreneurs. But no matter how close I was to entrepreneurship, I did not know what it meant to be an entrepreneur. I had to learn that the hard way. The, the way I always describe it to my friend, to my friends and my family,

• 0:41Speaker 00

  is that my MBA is my most expensive degree and I did not get it from school. I got that from the School of Hard Knocks. And I know that if I had this book earlier, the school that I went to, the School of Hard Knocks of Entrepreneurship, would have been a lot less painful. So if you're somebody who wants to start a business or has a business, definitely check out this book and check out this episode. This was an episode I did with Cody on her podcast last year. It did exceptionally well. It had, I think it's 129,000 views. And we talked about how we can use negotiation to move things forward in your life, your career and your business. So I hope you enjoyed this episode and more importantly, check out Cody's book once it comes out.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of granola free at granola.ai/Quami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns. And make sure to tell them that Quami with big swings only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com/Quami.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  The difference between being right and being persuasive. You can be as right as you want to be and it doesn't matter. Because the part of the brain that processes logically just doesn't work.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Today, we're talking to the man who is going to help you negotiate better and take some power back in the way that you communicate. I am stealing all of the homework from Quami Christian.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  A lot of why these conversations go awry, we have to understand the, the mechanics of memory. I will teach you everything you need to know about memory in three words. Memory is bad. When I push the best negotiators in the world to tell me stories about their toughest negotiations, what do they fall back on? These three core skills.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  What are the best comebacks to use when you need them?

• 2:42Speaker 00

  What you do, instead of telling them they're wrong, you help them to figure out how wrong they are themselves. A lot of times we win arguments but lose the relationship. Resentment builds up.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Hello and welcome back to the Big Deal Podcast. I'm Codie Sanchez. And today we're talking to the man who is going to help you negotiate better, maybe help you stop arguing so much, make more money when you do have discussions with people. We're going to take his years of lawmaking and negotiation experience. And we're going to bring it right to you so we can steal his 10,000 hours. Quami, I want to start off with a personal question.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  What was like a pivotal moment in your life when you realized negotiation could change everything for the good or the bad?

• 3:27Speaker 00

  For me, it was law school. That's where I really discovered that this was a skill, not a talent. And it was just eye opening for me because my origin story is a little bit different from most negotiation experts. I was a people pleaser for the majority of my life. And so from that point, when I stepped into that class and I realized, wait a second, this is a skill I could get better at it. It was really empowering. So for me, it was every time I had that tough conversation, it was a vote of confidence for the man that I ultimately want to become. But then I realized though, that if I was feeling this way, other people were feeling this way too. Lots of people living limited lives just because they didn't know that they had what it took to have the conversations. So that's really what put me on this direction.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  So now when you argue with somebody, do you, do you feel like what I feel like? I'm sweaty, I'm nervous, my heart rate's racing. Or have you found ways where you can argue and feel at peace?

• 4:20Speaker 00

  Well, depends on the conversation, right? And first of all, I try not to argue because usually when it comes to argumentation in, in the real world, you know, for me as a lawyer, like we argue for a living, right? But my wife has told me that when she describes me as a lawyer, it's not a compliment outside of the workplace, right? Nobody wants to be lawyer. Nobody likes to be on the other side of an argument. And when you think about it, even if you do win an argument, it comes at a cost. Usually the person just submits momentarily and they try to get you back later. It hurts the relationship. So when, but back to your original question, when I'm like in work, at work, when I'm negotiating business deals, I can stay pretty calm, pretty cool. Because I know that if I get the deal, that's great. If I don't, I'll be fine.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  It's at home. That's when my skills disappear and things become hard because the relationship matters so much.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  When you have been, you know, arguing or litigating or, you know, doing deal making, let's say as a lawyer, what is the worst way you could start a conversation? What is the worst way that you see people start? And do you have a specific moment where you're like, oh, this happened and I knew it was going to go sideways?

• 5:32Speaker 00

  There's so many wrong ways to start these conversations. Usually I think a big part of it is starting with the fact that we believe that we're right. And here's the thing, we might actually be correct. But the way that we carry ourselves as we communicate that might make that wrong, right? And that's the thing, because there's a difference between being right and being persuasive. And if we start off by saying I'm right because of this, what we are implying to them is that they are wrong. And so now it's not even about the thing anymore. It's about them asserting themselves in the conversation because they don't want to be dominated in the interaction. A lot of times we win arguments but lose the relationship. Resentment builds up, right? So you might get what you want in the moment. They might comply or submit in the moment.

• 6:17Speaker 00

  But then the whole time while they're complying, they are finding little sneaky ways to undermine you. Even if it's subconscious, right? Think about if somebody forces you to do something, you feel disrespected. You're not going to bring your best self to the table. And I don't, I don't think a lot of people take the time to appreciate those hidden costs of success in these conversations. We have to really take the time to make a meaningful connection. And sometimes that's the issue. It's not even the, the problem that brought this conversation to the table. It's the fact that there is a lack of connection and the person just wants to be seen, heard and understood.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Such a good point because I think, you know, especially in, in relationships where you're with somebody, you know, married or in a partnership. I mean, I remember I was married previously and I remember I have the, you talk about flight, fight or freeze. I have, I suppose it's, it's flight. It's like, I don't want to deal with it. It's not necessarily running. It's just like, I know where this argument is going. I can almost see three steps into the future. I'm not smart enough or skilled enough to get out of it. And so I almost am just going to shut down and either try to get away from the situation or try to not engage because I can't figure out a way where it just doesn't turn it into an argument

• 7:34Speaker 01

  and nothing solves. And I think, you know, what happened, at least in that situation is like, that happened for so long that finally by the end, I was just like, I'm really tired. I'm just tired. You know, and, and yeah, you win and I'll do it this way and you're right and I'm wrong. And I don't care anymore. And now like even worse than, than fighting is when you don't care.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. It's like, the fights can be really bad. But then when the fights stop, that can be even worse. And just the way that you described that, sometimes we are hesitant to be that vulnerable and say that specifically. Because a real powerful conversation could come from the fact that you could just say, hey, listen, we find ourselves constantly in these conversations. And I feel like I'm constantly getting rolled over in these conversations and I don't feel respected. And I'm concerned about what this means for the relationship. Just start with that and say that. And a lot of times we're afraid of doing that. I call it commentating the conversation. So imagine if the, the conversation is like a, like a sporting event. And then you have commentators that are up in the booth observing it just objectively.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  So what I like to do is I try to pull them out to that commentator's booth with me. Like, hey, you see what's happening here? This isn't good, right? I think there's something we both could change in order to make this interaction better. And just being that honest and blunt can be really, really helpful.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  You know, one of the other things that you talked about, you talk about commenting, which is really useful. You also talk about anchoring and how important that is. Can you explain what anchoring is and how to use it in an argument?

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. So anchoring is a psychological bias, right? It's a principle that essentially if we take it to the negotiation space, it's starting off the negotiation with the most aggressive request that we can reasonably justify. So here's why. And I have a fun study to share with you if you like this.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Love studies.

• 9:24Speaker 00

  I'm a nerd, so I love this. So they did this study where they broke people up into two groups. And so one group, they asked them a very simple question. They said, do you think Gandhi was older than or younger than 14 when he died? Dumb question, right? Okay, so they said older, duh, right? The next group, do you think he was older than or younger than 140 when he died? Dumb question, younger, right? Then they asked them the same final question. How old do you think he was when he died? And the group that was primed with 14 guessed on average 17 years younger than the group that was primed with 140. So it shows how even a nonsensical number can have a disproportionate impact on people's perspectives. So in negotiation, what we're doing with anchoring is we're setting a brand new reference point for the entirety of the conversation.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  So what is the starting point? And every other deal, every other counter will be compared to that initial starting point. And so a lot of times people ask me, well, Kwame, who should make the first offer? Me or the other side? It depends because of anchoring. So if I have as much information or more information, I'm always going to make the first offer because I know the power of anchoring. I'm not going to give that away to the other side. But if they know more than me and I know that, then I'm going to sit back, wait for their offer and then counter. Because every offer comes with information and then I can re-anchor off of my counter.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  That's such a good point because that is typically that adage in negotiation is never be the first one to put a price on the table, right? So if you're going to buy a business, don't do that. But I find the opposite for sellers of businesses because most small business owners don't really know what their business is worth.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  And, and they want a bigger number. They, they have like some seven figure idea in their head, even if their business is only worth six figures. And so what we teach is what you should do instead is, you know, you really want to tell them not just what you would offer for their business, but say something like, I'd be curious your take. I typically say something like, well, you know, I'm really interested in your business. I'm so appreciative that you sat down to talk to me. I like to make sure that we're super transparent upfront about what businesses trade for and how and why. So let me tell you how I think about it and you can see if, if that works for how you analyze your business. And so I'd say something like, typically, you know, as you know, if you go and look at Biz by Sell or some of the biggest sites out there for buying and selling businesses, businesses trade for two to three X the profits of the business.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  And so on average, we're dealing with two to three X profits of the business. Now, there are some things that, that maneuver a little bit on both sides, but like that's industry average. Like you probably already know that, but I like to just set the precedent. What do you think about that?

• 11:56Speaker 00

  See, I know what you're doing here, Cody.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  So you just wanted to show off how good you were.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  No, because if I'm bad, I want to know so you can help me do more deals.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  This is textbook. It's textbook. It's perfect for a number of reasons. First of all, you're dropping the anchor. You're also being really respective, respectful. So you're demonstrating that this is a collaborative approach. You're not trying to steamroll them, but you're also following the because test. So this is the way that you know whether or not your anchor is legit. So you need to be able to finish the sentence. I'm offering this because blank. And then you fill it in with objective and legitimate criteria. So objective, it comes from a third party legitimate. It's something that both parties would respect. And so you do that flawlessly while at the same time doing what a lot of negotiators miss when they're making that offer, is you're making it clear that this is a collaborative approach. I respect you, you respect me, I want to hear from you. How do you feel about it? That's perfect.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  That's really good, the frameworks that you use to explain, because I wouldn't have said, um, you know, one plus one equals two. And here's how the formula goes. What other formulas do you use in negotiating or frameworks where you're like, once you see this framework, you will understand how to negotiate this?

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yes. So for me, what I do with my, my podcast, Negotiate Anything, uh, we've had 1,600 episodes of the podcast. So my job is learning from the best negotiators and communicators in the world. So I wanted to see what everybody was saying, but saying differently. So FBI agents, CIA agents, like all of these folks, what are they saying differently? So for me, I put it into this mental model I call compassionate curiosity. So it's a simple three step approach. First, we're going to assume that there's an emotional challenge. So we're going to acknowledge and validate the emotions. Then, once the emotional temperature has dropped down, we're going to ask questions. So it's getting curious with compassion. That's number two. And then number three is use joint problem solving. So it's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem.

• 13:50Speaker 00

  We're going to try to solve this together. So you know what to say and when to say it for maximum impact. So you, it's not rigid, you just flow through it.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  That's so good. So let's, actually, this is so perfect because I wanted to get really tactical. I have all these questions. I'm going to have like, okay, Kwame, make me some money. Because I actually, I do think your bank account gets bigger based on a few things. The faster you move, the more risk you take, the more you learn from the risk you take and how well you can communicate.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  And like, if you have those four things, plus, uh, you're willing to, to do hard things, I think it's a lot easier to make money. But probably hard conversations are one of the, the most difficult things to do. It's almost like we get this, this feeling that it might be physical. And so what, you know, I wanted to start with like a couple of really, uh, difficult ones. Like in life, you are going to have people you don't like. Like what do you say to someone when you don't like them to start a hard conversation?

• 14:44Speaker 00

  So you say, listen, Cody, I don't like you.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. I'm like, that's how I do it.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  So I, I think it's, one of the things that happens is we unintentionally gaslight people into pretending that we don't know what happened in the past. Right? And so that causes resistance from the beginning of the conversation. If we've had beef in the past and I just come up and act like everything's okay, that's like disrespectful, right? So what I want to do is, again, with the framework, my acknowledgement is just, I'm going to clear the air. I'm just going to say, hey, listen, I know in the past we've had our challenges and my goal in this conversation is to have a, just connect with you. So we can try to get back on track. I'm not going to deny the reality that we both know exists, right? I want to make it clear, my goal here is to work with you. I'm not trying to argue with you and say you were wrong or relitigate the past or anything.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Things happen in the past, let's leave it in the past and let's figure out what our future is going to be together. And that's one of the most powerful things you can do to make a conversation more productive, especially when there's been resentment and hurt in the past. Just focus on the grammatical tense of the conversation. Pain, resentment, frustration, judgment, all of that exists in the past. It's hard to be mad at something that hasn't happened yet. So what I like to do is I sacrifice the past to win the future. So the person might say, Kwame, you did this, you did that. And I said, hey, listen, I know that I've made mistakes in the past. And what I want to do is get us back on track to make sure that we don't make those mistakes again. Considering that, what should we do now, right? And so just keep it focused on the future.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  That's, that's fascinating because I think it seems scary to say the quiet part out loud first, but it's almost like deflating a balloon. Like if you, if you let the air out, then it's just hard to stay so coiled.

• 16:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  Which is so useful. You know, you brought up gaslighting, which is, you know, I have so many thoughts about it because I think on the internet, a lot of people are like, they gaslit me. They're a narcissist. And it's like, is everybody a gaslighting narcissist? Or is like, what's happening here? You've watched too many Instagrams telling you, you're right all the time. But, um, I do think, and I find it even in some of my arguments.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Like, and you would probably know this, but is there data or studies that show that when people fight, they can't remember what the other party said? Because I think sometimes there's gaslighting that's actually just like, you think that this just happened? I literally think this just happened, but we're in the same situation.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Yes. And I'll also say this, they, in order for us to understand a lot of why these conversations go awry, we have to understand the, the mechanics of memory, right? I will teach you everything you need to know about memory in three words. Okay? Memory is bad. Your memory is horrible. Let me give you an example that happened just today. So we got a deal that came through, an offer, and, um, I was super excited about it. I was like, this is amazing. It just came into our lap. This is fantastic. Check this person out. Look how big they are. This is great. And then my, my, my head of sales said, if you recall a couple of weeks ago, I told you I was working this. And this is her responding to me. I was like, I'm, I'm really sorry, bro.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  I did not mean to do this and I promise you it will certainly happen again. Because memory is bad, right? So a lot of times the, when we are accusing somebody of gaslighting, it might be unintentional. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. But what we need to do is pay attention to patterns. If we are in a position where over and over and over again, we are finding ourselves in these weird miscommunications about what is real or what has occurred, that's a problem in itself, right? And I think we have to take a step back and just recognize that. It might be an accident and then sometimes it might be intentional gaslighting. And if it's the latter, then the best thing you can do is not try to win that argument about what is real.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  Once you've identified a person as gaslighting or manipulative, you need to pull back and try to get yourself that freedom that you need. Because what they want is more engagement. What they want are more opportunities to manipulate you and you need to deprive them of those opportunities.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  So is that how you handle gaslighting?

• 18:50Speaker 00

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• 20:17Speaker 00

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify Checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live,

• 21:02Speaker 00

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• 21:16Speaker 00

  terms on site. Yeah, I think it's, think about, think about it through the lens of negotiation, right? Where does your power come from in a negotiation? It's your alternatives. So your best alternative to a negotiated agreement, your batna. And it's when you feel, when you feel the most powerless is when you don't have opportunities or alternatives. So in these relationships, when we are being gaslit or manipulated, for some reason, inside of ourselves, we feel like we need this person or relationship. So the key to break free isn't trying to convince them to be good people. The way to break free is to figure out what's inside of you that's keeping you connected to them, and figuring out how you can get the strength to break free and live a life without them.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Hmm. It's really good. What about, let's say that we do want to end some arguments.

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  How, what phrases would you use? And what would you do to end an argument?

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Ah, so walk away clean? Or actually, do you want me to teach you how to dunk on people? I could do both.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Ooh, let's do both. Let's do one, let's do one where you show us to walk away clean first. And then I want to talk about talking back better than Ari for Entourage.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  Fair, let's do it. So with the first one, walking away clean, I think all we need to do is first, just acknowledge progress, right? And then let them know that we're done. It's really quite simple. So if I'm seeing a conversation is starting to break down, and we, we get to a point where things are falling apart, let's acknowledge, first of all, the human mind has a limited capacity for focus and attention. So back when I was a mediator, I would recognize after 60 to 90 minutes, people just started to fade. And when you start to fade, you start to get angry, you start to get, you know, a little bit upset. And so I said, we've accomplished everything that we could today. Let's come back and finish it another day. Right? And so in these conversations, what I'll say is I'll own it. I'm not going to say, you're fading and falling apart. Okay. I'll just

• 23:08Speaker 00

  say, hey, Cody, I really appreciate this conversation. I think we accomplished a lot. Because when we came into this conversation, we, it didn't seem like we were on the same page. We didn't understand each other very well. And now, even though we didn't accomplish everything, I still think we made progress. So how about this? Let's come back another day. Let's try to wrap this up another day. And if they still want to go back and forth, then I'll say, hey, if there's anything else that you want to say to me, I want to pay you the respect of listening. But I don't have anything more to add. I need to mull this over a little bit. And then the conversation ends when you say it does.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  That's great. So what if they keep coming? What if you're in an argument and you say that, I don't want to tell you anything else. But they keep talking at you. Is there a way to get out of that kind of conversation?

• 23:50Speaker 00

  Well, I would, in that, in that moment, I'll just say, again, using compassionate curiosity, I'd say, Cody, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like there's something that you still want to accomplish here that hasn't been done. Can you help me to understand what it is that you still want to accomplish? And put it back on them. Because here, there are two options, right? Either there is something that was left unsaid, unsaid, and now you've given them the opportunity to say it. Or there's nothing, and they just kind of want to hurt you. And I think we have to just recognize that sometimes, as humans, we have inappropriate goals. They feel bad, and they're putting it on you. And by asking that question explicitly, you're helping them realize that for themselves. No, I don't have anything

• 24:32Speaker 00

  else to say. I'm just mad. I'm putting it on you. They're usually not going to come to that conclusion. But once you ask them, and there's nothing there, then it usually helps them to back off.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  That's a good point, because you can just keep asking it. Is there something else? It seems like there's something else that you want to say. And at some point, they're going to even realize how repetitive they are.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  Exactly. And a good thing to throw in there is a summary. So it's, so based on what you said, this is a challenge, this is a challenge, and you're upset about this. Is there anything in addition to that, that you haven't already told me, that you'd like me to know? Because a lot of times, people just start to spiral and cycle over the things that are causing them pain. And now the conversation is really unproductive.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's great. You guys, if you liked this episode, wait until you see what we are going to do live at MSM Live. You guys will love the negotiation segment that we are going to do together. If you haven't already signed up for this three day event on how to buy businesses, do deals, negotiate, you are going to want to do that. Make sure to click the link in the bio. MSM Live, we only do it one time a year, and you're going to want to be there. What about, you know, we're kind of talking about over explaining. How do you stop over explaining yourself in an argument?

• 25:43Speaker 00

  Oh, this is good. Because here's the thing. Because when we are over explaining, what we're doing is we're giving away our power to the other side. When we are over explaining, it means that we are seeking validation from somebody outside of ourselves, and we're asking from them, something that we are incapable of giving to ourselves. And so the key is to try to break free from that conversation, and do some internal work. Why is it that I can't get what I need in this moment? Right? And I think about, even in my relationship, in times where, for instance, my wife, she's in, she's a doctor, but I remember we had our first son in residency. And it was tough, because we got married graduation day of undergrad. So we've been together all the time, spent a lot of time

• 26:27Speaker 00

  together. But then, when she was in residency, we had the baby, and I was launching my company, it was very tough. We didn't have as much time. And I found myself having these conversations with her, these arguments, because I had these needs, because I was feeling lonely. Then I realized, wait a second, I've, I have a challenge with being alone. I cannot handle solitude. There's a difference between being, enjoying solitude and being lonely. Right? And whenever I know, whenever I was by myself, I felt lonely, not experiencing solitude. So I recognized that what I needed to do was learn how to satisfy myself by spending time with myself, and recognize that I am just as legitimate of a partner to spend

• 27:08Speaker 00

  time with as her. And so whenever we find ourselves over explaining, we have to recognize that we are giving away our power to other people, seeking something from them. And if we can find that source within ourselves, now we're going to be more empowered communicators.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Is there some sort of trigger or reminder that you tell yourself when you hear yourself over explaining in an argument, to stop yourself?

• 27:34Speaker 00

  It's probably not very kind to say out loud. My, my internal voice can be very harsh sometimes. But I think it's just recognizing, wait, like, what are we doing here? What are we doing here? And you have to, you have to be self-aware enough to recognize that in yourself. And one of the things that I've started to do, that's helped me when it comes to these conversations in general, and I'm giving people the license to just watch trashy TV now, is when you are watching reality TV, and you see these conversations break down, because they will, they will break down, I want you to start to pay attention to why they break down. What is happening? What was the inflection point that led to the conversation going left when it should have stayed right? What, what is it that

• 28:19Speaker 00

  this person seems to need that the other person cannot give them? Right? And it's, sometimes it's so much easier to see that challenge in other people than it is to see it in ourselves. But once you start to get into that habit of identifying those challenges in other people, then it helps you to increase your own self-awareness in the conversation.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  I was listening, actually, to a friend of mine, Chris Williamson, talk about lately how he sometimes asks himself, if you were, if your life was a TV show, and a bunch of people were watching you, what would they be screaming at you to do right now that is so obvious to them, but not obvious to you? And he was talking about it from more of a life experience perspective. What do you do next with your life? But it's almost interesting to think about it from a, a, it's almost like removing back. You talked about it, like commenting. How can you go up to the commentator's box? How can you look down on the field and say, this is very obvious for, for Kwame down here, but he can't see it because he's too close to it?

• 29:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, something that I've done is, it's actually something I got from a client. So they said, whenever I'm in a tough conversation, I just ask myself, what would Kwame say in this conversation? And then I say that, and things go well. And I was like, damn, why don't I do that? When I'm struggling, I, now I say, what would I tell a client to do? And it becomes very clear. Because here's the thing, it's really easy for us to give advice to other people. Right? Think about some, so many people who give advice are not taking their own advice.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Right? And so if I just take, take a step back and act like I'm coaching myself, and say, huh, what would you tell somebody else to do in this conversation? It becomes really clear. And it's, it's humbling, Cody. It's so humbling.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Now, you promised me that you had some responses, some comebacks. Like, what do you do to get it? Like, what are the best comebacks to use when you need them?

• 30:11Speaker 00

  So here's the key. First of all, in effective negotiation and effective communication, the goal is to speak more, speak less than you listen. Right? So when I follow the 70/30 rule. So I try to get the other side speaking 70% of the time. I'm only speaking 30% of the time. And so for me, if I really want to break somebody down, what I'll do is I'll start asking really pointed questions. Not in a clearly leading way, but I want them to explain themselves. So if you're saying you believe this thing, or you think this thing is right, I'll just say, okay, can you help me to understand how you came to that conclusion? Okay, good. All right. So it sounds like you believe this because of this reason, right? Good. So I'm going to show them, hey, listen, I'm still listening to you, but I'm going to help them to build their case. And as they're building their

• 30:53Speaker 00

  case, I'm seeing the vulnerabilities. And then I'm going to ask a question that exposes a contradiction. Earlier, you said this, but I've seen this as well. So can you help me to understand that discrepancy? Right? And so I don't even need to say anything, Cody. I just need to help them to recognize that they are off base. And the thing is, in these situations, I'm not trying to hurt them or dominate them in the conversation. I just want them to come off the point. And a lot of times, people don't recognize that a lot of their strongest beliefs are built on bias and really nothing else. It's vibes and nothing else. There's no substance to it. But they might be imposing their beliefs on you without recognizing that they don't even understand why they believe what they

• 31:37Speaker 00

  believe. And so what you do, instead of telling them they're wrong, you help them to figure out how wrong they are themselves. So you give them the injection of humility by helping them to realize that there's no substance behind their argument.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  And the key to that is really just questions instead of statements.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  So you are showing the gap each time by asking questions continuously. As opposed to what I do in arguments, which is like, you said this, why did you say that? Those are statements which just lead to to more conflict.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  Exactly. So I think of it, think of it this way. I think about Newton's third law of motion, right? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So Kwame's first law of argumentation is every point has an equal and opposite counterpoint. So every time you make a point, they're going to keep coming back at a point because you know they're not listening. Doesn't matter how right you are, Cody, they're not listening. So and then let's bring it back to psychology. Let's talk about why this happens. Because you talked about fight, flight or freeze. This is the amygdala, the limbic system activating. We want their frontal lobe to be activated. That's where rational thought comes from. So we have to recognize that there's an antagonistic relationship between the amygdala and the frontal lobe. So the more emotional they are, the less clearly they're thinking.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  The more clearly they're thinking, the less emotional they are. It's an either or proposition. So you can be as right as you want to be. And it doesn't matter because the part of the brain that processes logically just isn't working.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  So good to know. What about, we talked about how do you talk to somebody who doesn't or that you don't like? How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you? What do you change?

• 33:19Speaker 00

  Hmm. Oof, that's a good one. That is a good one because first of all, we have to understand where that comes from. Sometimes it's vibe, like oil and water, we just, we don't, we're not compatible. Sometimes it's because of what happened in the past, right? And so in those conversations, what I want to do is instead of just focusing on the actual argument or conflict, usually the problem comes long before that. It's a deficiency of trust, right? Deficiency of likability. So when we think about it very, very basically, let's think about this fundamental rule of trust. Trust is gained in drips but lost in buckets. You make a mistake, you lose all of it. But in order to build it up, it takes time. It takes repeated interactions. Think about this other thing.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Have you ever had a situation where you heard a song and the first time you hear a song, you're like, it's okay. And then you keep on hearing it over and over again. Then you're like, man, I vibed to this. I like this, right? So in psychology, that's called the mere exposure effect. So the more you're exposed to a stimulus, as long as it's not negative, if it's neutral or positive, you'll start to like it more. And so the problem is, Cody, a lot of times with certain people, we only interact with them when there's a problem. We only interact with them when there's a problem. So you're not Cody, you're just bad news to them, right? And so we just need to warm up the relationship and lower the stakes of each conversation. Let's find ways to interact with each other, even if it's two minutes, five minutes, just a little positive, warm interaction.

• 34:48Speaker 00

  Those little things really matter.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  What do you think the ratio is of negative interactions to positive interactions to make sure that you have that mere exposure effect positively?

• 34:58Speaker 00

  Studies say it's five to one. Yeah. And I was, I was doing a coaching call earlier today and I talked about that because they were talking about how hard it is to give feedback. I said, one of the reasons why it's so hard is because we don't give positive feedback. We don't do positive reinforcement. We don't tell people when we like them. And so the only time we have a conversation with them about performance or something that they did is when something bad happens. But we don't take the time to realize this fact. Usually if you're not bringing up anything about their performance, it's because they're performing well and you don't say anything about it. And so we have to take the time to give people real legitimate compliments when they perform well. And when you start to actually give a person a real compliment, like it hits them in their heart, right? It hits them differently.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  Not like, oh, that was a good job. No, let's be specific. So you want an example? I'll give you an example. So there was a, actually, I think I was in your hometown. I think it was Austin, Texas. I was talking to an Uber driver. And so she was talking about the work that she does in the community. And she said, oh, I was thought by this age I would have kids, but I don't have kids, but I just really pour into my community. I try to give back as much as possible. I volunteer. So I was just hearing everything that she was saying. And then at the end of the, the ride, I just paused. And I was like, you know what? You might not have achieved that one goal, but it seems like you actually have more children than you realize because of the impact that you've had. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made. And my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather. And their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or just go to quince.com.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show. Try this. Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later.

• 37:52Speaker 00

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• 38:22Speaker 01

  Crying, I'll be crying.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  She just cried, you know? And so you have to take the time to listen, understand what people really, really want, and then tell them with specificity. Let them know that you see them because a lot of the people today, they just live their life completely unseen.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Oof. So if you were going to put this into practice, what would you tell people to do with members of their team and with their loved ones on a more consistent basis? Are you like keeping track of positive to negative interactions? Like what could people do right now today to make better relationships, knowing this kind of crazy framework?

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Pick up your phone right now. Think of somebody that you care about. Tell them why you appreciate them. That's it. No reason. No reason, no agenda. That's it. That's one really meaningful deposit in the relationship.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny you say that because my husband does a great job of this. He will often, when he thinks of somebody, send them a text and just say, hey, I'm thinking about you and here's why, you know, whatever real reason. And then say, by the way, that was all like, no need to respond, just wanted you to know you're on my mind. Which is also kind of a gift too, because you're not saying, hey, you have to open this conversation, just know that you're being thought of today, which I thought was really beautiful.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Let's go to the opposite side of this. Like, how do you expose bad behavior in communication?

• 39:39Speaker 00

  Hmm, in the way that they are communicating?

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how do you, like, let's say right now you're in an office space, you know, you're with your coworkers and, you know, you know that the way that they're operating is not, not basically on ethic, maybe not what you want them to do. And you've maybe even talked to them about it before, but you kind of can't get them to see your side. You don't know how to point out that what they're doing is not correct or you feel that it's not correct. Like, how do you expose that bad behavior and communicate it in a way that they could hear it?

• 40:11Speaker 00

  Well, first, to that challenge, one of the biggest problems is that you might be the only person who recognized that there is a problem. So you have to be the person bringing the conversation. And then overthinking holds us back. And then the conversation almost seems irrelevant because we've overthought it so much that the behavior has passed far in the, in the rearview mirror. So first of all, we have to just give ourselves a shot clock for action. So when I see a problem, I say, okay, Kwame, yeah, you, you're about to start overthinking this. You're not going to do that now. You got 24 hours to respond. That's what I tell myself. So first, it's an internal negotiation. That's the first thing. Then how we actually start the conversation, I like to use the framework of situation, impact, invitation. So situation, I'll describe the situation using naked facts.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  So facts that are stripped of all interpretation, judgment or opinion. So no matter who you are, what you think, you can say, yeah, that is what happened. Then impact, what did, what impact did it have on me? I'm going to personalize it, not globalize it. Because if I globalize it, then they could say, no, it didn't have that impact. No, I'm going to talk about me. And then invitation, when can we talk about it now, an hour later? So let's say the person is constantly turning in reports late and it's making it really tough for you. So what you'll say is, hey, Cody, I wanted to have a conversation with you because we needed the report on Monday and then we didn't get it until Wednesday. And this made me want to reach out to you because when that happens, it makes it hard for me to do my job. So I wanted to chat with you to see what we could do to get back on track with the way that things are going, right?

• 41:39Speaker 00

  Really simple to say, hard in emotionality, but by making it so small, you can, and simple and without over explaining as you're going through it, you can make it a little bit more palatable. Because our goal is to get into the conversation without unnecessary resistance.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. As opposed to probably what most of us do, which is like, the report is late again. Why didn't you send it, Susan? You're always late. Like, what do we have to do to change this next time, right?

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. Because it starts off with an attack, right? And then to add to that, you use the word why, which often triggers judgment, which almost guarantees that you're going to get a defensive response, right? And so a lot of times we blame other people for their performance in these conversations, but we don't realize that a lot of times they are simply responding to the way that we address them. And how else would they respond in that type of situation? So we want to make sure that we are not coming into the conversation with more friction than is required. And a lot of times the conversation is doomed from the get go, simply because of how we approached it.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  So if you want somebody to change a behavior, is it wrong to ask them why they did X thing you don't want them to do?

• 42:54Speaker 00

  You want to understand why, but you want to try to avoid using the word why. Because why is associated with judgment. So any question that could start with why can be transitioned to what or how. So why did you do it that way? You could say, what led to that decision? Or how did you come to that conclusion, right? Or what problem were you trying to solve? Those type of things. So you can still get the same information because that's vital, but you want to do it in a way that's less triggering.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  That's so fascinating. So that's just like societally, we have realized that whenever anybody asks us that, it's judgment.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Think about when we were kids.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that, Kwame?

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. If I'm answering something in class and the teacher's like, why do you think? I was like, sounds like I'm wrong, professor. Why did you just tell me why I'm wrong?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I think the, the, you know, some of what you've talked about is like how to be at peace while arguing.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  And arguing from a place of peace. Because if you, you already talked about it's really hard when you're, when you've sort of hijacked your amygdala and you're all emotionally charged to remember not to use the words why, or to take a step back. So what do you do when you are really mad and charged in order to de-charge the situation and have a conversation?

• 44:11Speaker 00

  Yes. So first of all, in our preparation, we often take the time to prepare strategically, but we don't take the time to prepare emotionally. Right? We just go in and say, I'm gonna tell him this, I'm gonna tell him that, I'm gonna tell him this. Then they say the thing that hurts our feelings and we break down. Right? We could have seen this coming. So I want to think through all of the things that could really upset me, that could really like throw me off my game and say, all right, if this happens, then I'll respond in this type of way. So I can essentially emotionally rehearse it, kind of like an Olympian, right? With Michael Phelps, one time when he won one of his 85 million gold medals, he was like, the water got into his goggles, but it didn't really matter to him because he had mentally rehearsed it so many times. So when the conversation actually happens and the person says that

• 44:56Speaker 00

  thing, in your mind, you're like, I knew that was gonna happen. I knew you were gonna say that and it's not gonna hurt me. I'm not gonna give you the satisfaction of showing an emotional response in this situation. Now, even though we take the time to prepare, we will be humans and sometimes our humanity will show, unfortunately. And so, especially if it's a business situation, Whitney has informed me that this does not look good in a marital situation. I usually have a notepad, right? And so if somebody says something that triggers me or something like that, I have my little notepad and I'll just say, oh, that's a really good point, Cody. Can you give me a second to take some notes here? I'll take some notes. Cody, usually I'm not writing anything. I'm just pissed. I'm

• 45:37Speaker 00

  just like, oh my god. And so I'm saying, all right, I'm running through compassionate curiosity internally, because it was designed for not just the conversation with other people, but the conversation with yourself to calm yourself down and get clarity. So I'll say, okay, what am I feeling? I'm feeling angry. Well, anger is typically a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. What else am I feeling? Well, I'm feeling disrespected. Okay, then I'll get curious with self-directed compassion. Why do I feel that way? Well, we've had this conversation a number of times and I don't know why she keeps on bringing this up, right? And so I can do that in about 10 seconds and then I can come back composed with a question to get the conversation back on track.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really like to take notes too during arguments. Chris has also told me it's frowned upon in marital arguments. But, and I think it's probably because they think that you're not listening.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  But it is relatively hard to deregulate or down-regulate without like physical symptoms. You know, you could like, like breathe out or like shake your hair, like, you know, and when I start to get agitated, I move a lot.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Ah, yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  You know, I start like, I'll start twitching or I'll like start looking around or I'll like start biting my lip. And I now know sort of what my triggers are. So I can tell like, all right, I'm at a two, I'm at a three, I'm at a four. But sometimes, especially with our closest people, it's hard to find a way to down-regulate that isn't really telling and doesn't become a bigger trigger.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Have you found any way around that?

• 47:02Speaker 00

  My, my move is my toes. So, yeah, so it's like, I need to release that tension.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  So I'll just kind of squinch my toes, like make it a tactile meditation again.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Make me feel a little bit more grounded. That's really helpful. Doing box breathing, I know your husband is former military too, so just taking the time to control my breathing. But what I do that's different is I prepare beforehand. So, because if I don't prepare, who knows, maybe it looks like I'm hyperventilating or fuming in the moment. So I'd actually prepare in the mirror and I would practice this. Can I take a really slow, deep breath and do box breathing without it being perceived? That too takes practice. And so I'm actually going to think through my emotional regulation tools before the conversation. I think about my four-year-old, right? I was, he was, he's been having some tantrums recently and I've

• 47:55Speaker 00

  been informed that's what four-year-olds tend to do. I was taking it personally. I'm like, I teach people to be calm. Look at this kid. And so I realized I was trying to get him to do his deep breathing while he was angry, then it hit me. The reason why he can't do it is because he's never practiced. I'm asking him to perform on game day with no practice sessions. So I just taught him this cue. I said, okay, let's pretend like you're blowing out a candle and I'll do this while he's happy. Right? Right? And so now that he has reps of doing that without him having a tantrum, now he can do it during a tantrum. We need to treat ourselves the same way. What do I look like when I'm taking my deep breaths? Can people see if I'm starting to really freak out if I'm taking notes and

• 48:38Speaker 00

  bawling up my feet? And so now I might be able to, I still have that tension. It doesn't go away, but I have a better way of processing it now.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  That's so useful. It's also useful because then it's not a tell in like a negotiation.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  You know, it's one thing with, but I guess it's all a negotiation because even, even in a marriage, when you kind of let the other person know you're frustrated, I think that that is also, like, they're like, why are you frustrated? I'm the frustrated one, you know? There's a natural inclination for that. So I love that. I know who I'm sending this episode to. Chris, my husband, also to every partner that I ever work with. Who are you guys sending this episode to? If you felt like you got something out of this episode, the only way we grow is by you all sharing it. And I think, given what happened with the last episode, a bunch of you guys are starting to share this thing. So show somebody you love them and you want them to be able to communicate better, you want them to be able to get what they want out of the world around them and share the show.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  A lot of people get told that they're too sensitive, you know? Hey, you're too sensitive. Why are you worrying about this? You always take things the hard way, you know? Why do you, why are you taking it that way? I didn't mean it like that. What do you do when someone tells you you're being too sensitive? And how do you respond back to that?

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Well, first of all, for the person saying, hey, you're being too sensitive, I just want them to know, that's ineffective. Right? The person isn't like, oh my gosh, I'm resilient now. That's just, that's not how it works. Right? Now, if you're in that, on the receiving side, I, and I think this is something that is not done enough times because we're afraid of how it is perceived or we are afraid of not being able to save face. It's just saying, I, I cannot have this conversation right now. I can't have this conversation right now. Right? I think in, in relationships especially, we, our conversations are almost doomed from the start. Because when do we typically have our arguments with our spouse? It's like after eight o'clock, nine o'clock. You have decision fatigue, you're tired, you're grumpy, you had a lot of work to do. And so now you're saying, you know what, I'm gonna have a really

• 50:40Speaker 00

  heavy emotional conversation and do it well? We're setting ourselves up for failure. So I think in those situations, when that happens, just recognize, you can give yourself permission to take a pause, even if it's five minutes. Just say, hey, right now, I, I cannot have this conversation. I know it's important, I can't. Just give me some time and I'll come back to you. Right? And then maybe we negotiate when we have the conversation, not actually negotiate that thing. So I think giving yourself some time and space can help with that emotional regulation. I think another thing too, especially I've coached people who are criers. And the thing about crying is that the more you try to stop crying, the more you cry. Right? And so when we have these behaviors, just, you have to have a better story for it. Because people are gonna see it and then they're gonna put their own

• 51:24Speaker 00

  narrative on it. They're gonna frame it as weakness or fragility, whatever it happens to be. No, it's passion for me, whatever it happens to be for you. Right? So before going into the conversation, you might just say, hey, listen, I want you to know that this is something I care deeply about. And when I care about something, I, sometimes tears come. And I don't need any help. I'm okay. I can still have the conversation. I just want you to know where it's coming from. And so that helps you to manage your emotions because you're not fighting just, not just the emotion, but also the feeling of judgment. But it also helps them to say, okay, they told me this is probably gonna happen. That's fine. I'm not as threatened by it.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Right. Because I think oftentimes, if the other person starts crying, let's say, I know this has happened to me previously, like if I've had a friend that cries a lot. And, and at some point, you know, if you're really good friends with them, like I am with this person, you're like, ah, you know, I just stop. I just go, oh no, you're crying. Opt out. But actually, that's not very mature either because then that means that I can never get across the thing that I need to say to them. And so then resentment, resentment builds. So your take would be, when you start crying, you just let the person cry.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Yes. And, and, and also let them know that you're not judging them for crying because it just weighs on them. They don't like that they're crying, they're trying to stop crying, which makes them cry more. And then they think that you're judging them too. Then it, it, it just kind of falls apart. So back when I was mediating, what I would do is I would give them the tissue and they're like, I'm so sorry for crying. I said, listen, in this situation, it would honestly be odd if you weren't emotional. So it is completely okay. Take the time that you need. And that helped them to calm down because they knew they weren't being judged.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  You must have crazy stories from when you mediated.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  Great stories.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Is this, so you were mediating divorces?

• 53:09Speaker 00

  No.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  No. What were you mediating?

• 53:11Speaker 00

  I am not that old. This was just court cases. So litigation, lots of business, landlord, tenant, that type of stuff. And one of the things that was unique about the way that I mediated, and I got this compliment from one of my colleagues too. She said, Kwame, in my life, I have never heard anybody get people to laugh as much as you do in mediations. And it can work really well, but laughter and humor in tough conversations only works if you are funny.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  If you're not funny, it makes everything worse.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Crying while trying to fake laugh at somebody, that's a nightmare.

• 53:51Speaker 00

  That was awful. It is awful.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  That's crazy. One of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is like, in those, let's say you're mediating something. And mediate, mediating, are you in the same room? So like, you're in the middle and they're on both sides?

• 54:03Speaker 00

  Great questions. No.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  They're in different rooms.

• 54:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, cuz I found out, and this is, this is kind of groundbreaking. When I put two people in a room that hate each other, bad things happen. You know, so what I would do is I would do shuttle diplomacy and I'd be the, the mouthpiece for both of them. But as we started to get closer to an agreement, then I would bring them together. But again, I would negotiate their behavior. Like, listen, don't do this, don't do that, let's get it together. Because I know that once I leave, these two people are going to have to coexist. They have a company to run, they have some kind of dispute that needs to be settled and the relationship continues. So I want to get some positive momentum of them being able to communicate with each other respectfully, even when I'm not there. So toward the end, that's when I'd bring them together.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  How do you manage when someone is speaking over you?

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Hmm, there are a few different ways, right? So first of all, we have to recognize emotionally and not emotionally, personality wise. Extroverts are more likely to do this. They probably don't even recognize it's happening. So bringing awareness is going to be important, right? And I think just saying, hey, by the way, I wasn't done making my point when, when you started speaking. So if going forward, if you could just let me finish, that'd be really helpful. Just a simple statement like that, right? And then in those situations also, you probably don't feel heard as people are talking over you too. So when you recognize somebody is not listening, a simple thing you could do is just say, hey, listen, I feel like I'm having trouble getting my point across. Out of curiosity, what is it that you think my point is in this situation?

• 55:34Speaker 00

  And just put it on them. And so what ends up happening is they can't explain it, of course. Now, this is not when you dunk on them and say, haha, you're a jerk, you weren't listening. You just say, hey, okay, I, I, my, my apologies. You wonder, you mind if I have another shot at explaining it to you? And so in that situation, they realize, oh, I thought I knew, but I don't know. So now is when I need to listen at this point. So a couple of different things, but I think usually if somebody interrupts you, it might be a personality type of thing and it might be a power dominance type of thing. Just expect it to keep on happening and it will, it will start to diminish as you start to employ these techniques. But you have to make sure that you still have that resilience and you don't get to the point where you're getting emotional, because then you get thrown off your game, right?

• 56:18Speaker 00

  Because if you just recognize its personality, then you don't take it as personally.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Are you able to detach and just think about this as a game now?

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. So here's, here's the way I think about it. So for me, it's not as much of these conversations as tools to get what I want, even though I do quite frequently. It's a game in terms of how calm can I stay in this conversation? How self-aware can I be? When the person said that thing, oh, I felt that flutter, I felt it, I caught it really fast. Where did that come from? Okay, yeah, I, now I understand what that means about me. What does that emotion mean about me? So I treat these conversations as meditations. They're tools of self-awareness. So when somebody interrupts me, I say, okay, how did that make me feel? When I'm not getting what I want, oh, that might be an indication that in this conversation, I feel a little bit powerless.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  If, if they're not giving me that thing and I feel that flutter of fear, then I'm saying, oh, that's some weakness inside of me that I need to work on in that moment. So it's not even about the outcome anymore. It's about learning more about myself through the process of these tough conversations.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  That's really useful. It all starts with your frame. Now, you've, you know, helped Fortune 500 CEOs and really big deals go through. What is like one brutal truth you wish you could tell every big time dealmaker that they probably don't already know or don't want to hear?

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Ooh, that they don't want to hear. In my time doing my own negotiations, consulting on these deals, learning from the best in the business with the podcast, we only need three core skills to be a great negotiator. After 1,600 episodes of the podcast, that was the disappointing reality, cuz I didn't want it either. I'm a, I'm a professor of this, right? So I teach at the law school. I, I like to be really tactical. I love to go deep into the tactics and the strategies, right? But when I push the best negotiators in the world to tell me stories about their toughest negotiations, what do they fall back on? These three core skills. Listening, asking questions and managing emotions. That's it. And when you think about a tactic, all a tactic is, is a combination of those three skills

• 58:30Speaker 00

  used at the right time, in the right moment, in the right way. That's it. And so a lot of times, these are, these dealmakers tend to become tactic hunters. I want to get the newest and best tactic and everything like that. But at the end of the day, listen, ask questions, manage emotions, yours and the other side's, and just create an intentional connection with the other side. That is what wins the day, the majority of the time. And I think people aren't willing to just put down their barriers and connect human to human, especially when the deal gets really, really important and the numbers get really, really big. But if we remember that it just comes down to that human connection, that's the edge, then we can make these tough conversations a lot easier.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Have you had Chris Voss on your podcast?

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Yes, I did. He was great.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  He's great. So he's a buddy of mine and I just went and saw his Broadway show. And it was so interesting because that through line was through all of it. He was talking about, you know, this, this guy that took a bunch of hostages in the Philippines and how he pulled him back from basically murdering these people and decapitating them and dropping their bodies everywhere to at the end of the conversation saying to the negotiator, uh, well, I'd work with you again. Thank you for this and, and letting them go.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  And so, uh, and it wasn't some perfect little mind game that he played. It was, can I listen to them? Can I repeat, repeat back what's happening to them? Can I stay calm? That's so fascinating. Okay, let's end with this. Have you ever regretted leaning into a tough conversation?

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  You have?

• 59:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. And it was for me, running a company, being a leader, I, I, I didn't fully understand my role for a very long time, Cody, because my identity was as a negotiator. But as a leader, I need to be a leader who happens to have negotiation skills, not a negotiator running a company. Here's why the distinction is so important. Because as a negotiator, one of our mantras is separate the people from the problem. Separate the people from the problem. The person is not the problem, you can work with them to solve the problem. But for me, running a company, and I'm sure you've had to come to this conclusion yourself too, sometimes you work really hard, you try to be collaborative, you provide feedback and then you realize, oh, the problem isn't outside of the person.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea. It's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Quami to start your free trial.

• 1:01:25Speaker 00

  That's Shopify.com/Quami. Go to Shopify.com/Quami to hear your first.

• 1:01:33Speaker 00

  Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather. And their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or just go to quince.com.

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Quami with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show. The problem is the person in this very position right now. And I kept a lot of people on life support for way longer than I should have because I, I recognize that it was a little bit of that, that, those echoes of people pleasing from my past. I recognize it was a lot of ego and hubris saying, no, they might've had trouble in the past, but I am so brilliant and persuasive I can persuade them into functionality.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  And it, it caused way more harm than, than good. So that was something that was really, that I, I had to learn the hard way. Because sometimes after repeated conversations and leaning into the conversations, the continued conversations in itself is the problem.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  It's very vulnerable to share because, you know, it's never fun letting somebody go. And it's also never fun being the person letting go. And you're right, I think a lot of times, it's like the, the thing women do, we're like, I could fix him. They're like, girl, no you can't. He's broken before, he's broken now. Get out of there. You know, and sometimes that's just okay.

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  But it, it's a really good point too. I mean, I remember one of my favorite bosses, when I was struggling with a person on my team that wasn't working. And, and I remember him saying to me, I just want you to go around and ask the leaders at this company, the ones that you respect, only the ones that you respect, um, how many times they have let somebody go that they thought they really needed to let go and move on to the next thing? Have they regretted it?

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Oh, my.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  What do you think the answer is? Zero. Quami, I never get zero, isn't it? Like, zero is a crazy answer to have. And now I play this game where I go around to events and, and I always ask them two questions. One is if somebody came up to you as a business owner and asked you to sell your business at the right price and the right terms on the right day, would you say yes? And obviously, that's 100% of people, like especially, and if they don't raise their hand, I always go, you're too soon in your company. You've been doing this long enough. But the second question is, you know, have you ever let go of somebody and regretted it? And the wild part is I, I've never had somebody raise their hand. And listen, that could be confirmation bias, certainly, there's many reasons why.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  But I think often we know, we know when we have to let go of somebody and we have tried. And I don't even mean firing, it could mean let go of a relationship, let go of a partnership. And so I think that's really, um, that's really humbling to share and not enough of us do that.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes, we have to learn the hard way sometimes, Cody.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Right. What would you leave people with who are scared to death of having difficult conversations and do not think they can get better?

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  Everything's practice. Everything's practice. If we just assume, especially in our career, if we continue to improve and have higher level opportunities and responsibilities, then the conversation we have today, in terms of gravity, is going to pale in comparison to the conversation we have next year. And so if you think about this conversation as an opportunity to build your skills and practice, then the thing that scares you the most should actually excite you. Because the, the more ridiculous they are, the more emotional they are, the tougher the conversation. It's like, great, this is a good rep, I'm getting stronger for this. Even if I don't get what I want in this conversation, I will build my skills in a way that puts me in a better position for the future.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  So if you have this just continuous learning mentality and recognize that every conversation is just practice for the next one, then it takes a little bit of pressure off of you and helps you to lean in in the tough ones.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Love it, yeah. Curiosity and practice, better than a whiskey. Quami, you're the man. Where should everyone go to follow you? This is so useful. I follow you on Instagram.

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  Thank you, thank you.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  But tell people the handle that you want them to follow you on and where?

• 1:06:16Speaker 00

  Yes, so Instagram and TikTok, it's Quami negotiates. And then the podcast doesn't negotiate anything, but I'll, I'll break some news here now. I'm actually going to rebrand it to the Quami Christian Show so I could talk about more topics too, so.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  I like it. After 1,600, you're like, well, there's only three, so I gotta add some more to the list. I love that. Quami, thank you for being here.

• 1:06:37Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.