Learn to Read Anyone, with Sabine Charles

What if reading people wasn't a gift, but a skill you could actually learn? Dr. Sabine Charles has one of the most unusual resumes you'll hear on this show — she's a former chief audit executive and fraud investigator turned hypnotherapist, and the founder of a leadership framework called MeQ (Mindset, Emotional Intelligence, and Leadership Qualities). As an auditor, her job was to walk into a room and convince skeptical executives to change their minds. As a fraud investigator, people would confess things to her in minutes that they'd hidden from everyone else for hours. Her colleagues started asking: what is she doing differently? If you've ever walked away from a conversation feeling like you just couldn't get through to someone, this episode will change how you think about that problem — and give you a real place to start. Connect with Sabine drsabinecharles.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabine-charles/ Connect with Kwame: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠⁠⁠ @kwamenegotiates across all social platforms

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What does a hypnotherapist and an auditor have in common? That's actually a trick question because in this case, they are the same person. Dr. Sabine Charles is the founder of the Tapa Institute and a former chief audit executive who has spent years helping people to make good decisions with numbers. But what's interesting is that nobody has a background quite like Sabine's. She's a proud Haitian immigrant fluent in four languages with experiences inside of Fortune 500 companies and her own enterprises. She's also the creator of a leadership program called Leadership Me Q, a framework that she built by combining her own research with her lived experience. This isn't an episode about numbers and data.

• 0:43Speaker 00

  It's an episode about how Sabine uses this unique blend of skills to read a person before she ever tries to persuade them and why every framework on communication that you've ever heard lives and dies on that one skill. This is the story of how you can lean into your own superpowers and build a career by design. Welcome to Big Swings Only.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Internal audit is not necessarily about creativity. It's an ability to analyze information, come up with recommendations so that business leaders make decisions. So basically, we're convincing people.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  We're convincing people to change their minds. That's what an auditor does.

• 1:29Speaker 00

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• 2:04Speaker 01

  Because you have an individual who's already working and doing that nine to five or the number of hours he or she is doing it. And you're coming in as an expert of process, risk, controls. Now, you have to, your job is to convince the person to change their minds, to do something different. And a lot of times, auditors don't necessarily focus on the human element. They focus on the technical piece of the process. Process, people, and technology. This is what we always talk about. Process, people, and technology.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  And we tend to focus on the process and the technology and the people, oh, they'll just fall, follow suit.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  And that's why it's a little, it's interesting because at many times in my career, I used to be a fraud investigator, not only an internal auditor, but also a fraud investigator. And we have to interview people and they spend hours talking to the individual, trying to figure out what they've done. I just walk in and all of a sudden they spill everything and they come back. My colleagues used to say, what did you do? How did you have this person feel so comfortable to tell you everything?

• 3:25Speaker 01

  They call my office 42nd Street, not because of other certain things, but because people come in the office and they just spill the beans. And I started thinking to myself, what is that? Because often my bosses, my colleagues ask me, how do people feel so comfortable telling you things that they've done wrong?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  And that was the beginning of the journey of Leadership Me Q, mindset, emotional intelligence, and leadership qualities. There were many avenues that led to this framework. But if you talk about internal audit, my career, that's where it kind of moved me into that space. We could talk about the hypnotherapy as well, which is a very interesting story, but those components is what led me to where I am today.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Incredible. This is great. That was better than a story. So let's talk about how you got people to spill the beans because we can't just like tease the audience with that. Because when it comes to fraud investigations, I know there are a lot of different things that run through people's minds, but if you could give us an idea of what type of fraud you were investigating and then what you did actually in the moment to get people to admit to things that perhaps they would have been in their best interest not to share with you.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  It's at the emotional intelligence level. You have to first understand the person who is in front of you. And based on that, then you could communicate on their level. That's the technique. So the first couple of seconds, I assess. Like my friend up here, we were talking in French and Spanish a few minutes ago. He'll always remember me.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  So there's the connection that you make.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  And it's not manipulative. It's actually genuine because I was generally interested in what he was saying. And so going in, not necessarily on the defense, going back to the auditor, or trying to be right all the time. We go in and to understand what is the other person's point of view and where do they sit and then meet them where they are.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  And that's the E in M-E-Q. We also had a survey that we provide our clients so that they could measure their emotional intelligence level. And then based on that, we work on certain key things that you're interested in. And we have three, we have, you have a session with three, you have three sessions with the coach and they work towards elevating your EQ because that is something you can learn. You learn it. I learned it very early in my career at five with my grandmother from, she's from Haiti. And I learned it very, very early.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  And I talk about this in my TEDx talk where it was about when I was a kid at five, my grandmother, she watched us because my parents were working, living the American dream, working three jobs, you know?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  And she was the caregiver. She didn't speak English. She spoke Haitian Creole and I had friends and I had a jump rope and I was like, I always walked around with this jump rope. And she noticed when we were outside, I wasn't really interested in hanging out with grandma. I wanted to hang out with the girls who are in the complex. I went there, she kind of said, okay, go play with them. I went and played with the young girls. Then seconds later, I came back crying because the girls stole my jump rope. They stole my jump rope.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  And my grandmother looked at me and, and while my brother was there translating and she looked at me, she goes, you better go get your rope or else you're going to really find out what crying is about. And that just snapped something in me, which caused me to realize, oh, I better get my jump rope because I'm afraid of grandmama. So I went, grabbed my jump rope. The kids were like, whoa, they've never seen me so determined in my life. And I came back and I held the jump rope like a trophy to my grandma and she just kind of just moved her head like, hmm. And that was it. And that was the first time I realized you should not let people

• 8:05Speaker 01

  take your voice away from you, your identity or your jump rope because it's yours. That was my first lesson. Again, going back to Leadership Me Q, I had multiple things in my life that had, that has, that have caused me to be and understand and share this framework with the world. Because it wasn't something was created in a lab. It was not only because I did my dissertation on this. I also lived it. And that combination of really understanding the process and research, then also under

• 8:42Speaker 01

  having live experiences, that combination is what makes it so user friendly and relatable. Because first you have to figure out who you are, then understand who, with whom you're dealing. And then the other things, the qualities or techniques that are all learnable.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Right. Oh, this is good because especially when you, and I'm sure you've probably had this experience where you interact with somebody like we, the fraud example is one, but just in general, your ability to communicate with so many different types of people, different types of background. And people might look at you and it might seem like a magic trick. There's a specific je ne sais quoi that you have, but that's your accumulated experience. But then also the, the level of intentional learning that you've done and everything boils into what you are today. So it sounds like there's a lot that is based in your personal history and experience and explicit study. And so when you're teaching people, when you're coaching people, helping them to connect,

• 9:49Speaker 00

  helping them to persuade, helping them to manage folks' emotions, how do you make sure that they develop their skills while at the same time staying rooted in their authentic identity so they don't lose their personal je ne sais quoi?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  You, I, did you look at my framework? I have a photo. This is great. Around this framework I have, which is M-E-Q, there, there's a circle. And in that circle, it says innovation, self-reflection, and core values. Those are the three things that makes me and you and everyone else unique. Our innovate, being innovative, self-reflective in our core values.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Now, I like to say, we need to always be an external observer of ourselves for inner growth. We tend to look inward, like we, we're self-absorbed. But to be removed from ourselves and look at ourselves as an external person or an external being, that's where meditation comes in, right? So you start looking at yourself holistically. That's the first step. What am I doing to prevent me from getting what I want?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Do I really want this?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Am I wanting this because everyone tells me that I should get it? I actually helped before doing EQ, Leadership EQ, I used to train people to pass certification exams through Tapa Institute. And many times, people want to get certified because they want to get promoted in their job. Mostly the CPA, Certified Public Accountant, or CIA, which is Certified Internal Auditors, those type of exams, Certified Fraud Examiner, those exams. And I always ask them, ask my clients first

• 11:57Speaker 01

  five minutes of the conversation, why do you want this?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Why? You're gonna spend hours of your life crying, and they usually break down crying too.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  During this session?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Just really, why do you want this? Because they failed so many times. They come to me after failing a few times. Because I analyze how they process information, and then I teach them on their level. So to the point where I have a comic book, and I have a movie about teaching the CPA audit part of the exam. Which is gonna come out this year. And it's gonna be on YouTube. Every, we're gonna actually put it out every Wednesday at a certain time, so people could kind of see. Not only I'm helping the people who are my focus group, but I believe that everyone can learn from each other. This is why I'm putting it out there.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  You don't have to be an auditor to appreciate and understand what I'm talking about. So the first thing I do is understand the person in front of me. That's number one. Because everyone comes in with a unique core values, innovation, and self-reflection. Before I could apply that framework, I need to understand what and who you are.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  This is so good, because when you think about different frameworks that people would apply, so we have your coaching methodology, we have different conflict resolution frameworks, like for me, it's compassionate curiosity. In order to make that work, you have to be able to aim. You have to be able to understand the person. Because even though the core framework will be the same, the application and the way that you communicate it to the other person will be different based on the input that you get. And when you think about persuasion, a lot of times, especially when you're dealing with data, we often make the mistake of trying to persuade too soon. Where we're in a situation where we say, okay, I've done all the research. I've got the right answer, and now I'm gonna provide the right answer.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  And now you will have the right answer, and then you're gonna be on the same page, just like me. And then we are shocked when that doesn't work. And so the necessity of taking the time to understand the other side deeply is crucial in any framework, anything that you're trying to do. Now, the thing is, I think most people, when they listen to that, they'll say, okay, yeah, I can under- I understand the value of understanding. But, this might sound a little bit meta. But what is it that people don't understand about what it is that you mean when you say you need to understand other people? If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about.

• 14:58Speaker 00

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• 15:43Speaker 00

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• 16:26Speaker 00

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• 16:42Speaker 01

  When you were talking, it made me realize some of the things that we often do as auditors, as risk managers. Right? We have, we spend hours researching things, and we come up with the right answer.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Quote, the right answer. Now, what I think is missing, and again, it goes back to my research, is that the world has changed. The leadership books that we've read were environments, were in or set in environments where people came to the office. It's set in environments where we looked in each other's eyes and we could read someone's emotions or body language.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  So when I say understanding, now we don't have those cues. We don't have, or they're a little bit different. We cannot use our senses to know if I'm leaning back, that I'm not, I'm kind of just off put. I just don't feel like I'm, I wanna hear you. But I may be leaning back in my chair in a Zoom meeting because I just wanna be relaxed. So the cues may be a little bit different.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  That's the learning. So adjusting and being flexible enough, that growth, people like to throw a growth mindset, yeah. But being aware. It's actually being aware and saying, that curiosity, to use your words.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Am I clear? Am I

• 18:27Speaker 01

  getting the, reading the room correctly? And the room now is a Zoom room, or whatever platform people are using.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Now, how do you develop relationships when you have work environments that's your bedroom?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Right? Or your living room? And someone else is across in different countries and culture, cultural differences. The way I do it, when I work, is by having one-on-one conversations with them, 15 minutes. So when I am in my auditor's role, because I run, the Chief Audit Executive, I am a Chief Audit Executive for an entity. What I do is I have meetings with the leaders, just to say hello. And they have outdoor activities, meaning they have parties to celebrate things. Attend.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  That's your opportunity. You gotta attend. Bar mitzvahs. I'm not Jewish. Go.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  You know, Eid. Go. If they invite, then go. Because that's that human interaction, that's that friendship. Then when something happens, and when you need to be in front of them and convince them about a process, then it becomes easier.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  A couple of things that I wanna dig into here, Sabine, because this has been a masterclass. Because you were asking yourself during these conversations, am I being clear? And the only way for us to know if we're being clear is if we can understand the other side. And here's what I mean. Because we might be able to communicate in a way where somebody that knows us or somebody else might consider it clear. We ourselves might consider that we are being clear. But the only person who could determine the clarity of our message is the recipient of the message. And the thing is, especially when you are in a technical field, talking to somebody who is not technical, we have the issue of ego, but not in the way that is obvious.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Because if you're speaking in a technical type of way, in a way that is clear to you, you might stop and pause and say, hey, am I making sense to the other person? Now, the answer, truthfully, might be no. But they might say yes, because they don't wanna look stupid. Right? And so you have to go beyond the words of what the person is actually saying to be able to read the body language and see if there is a bit of a lack of understanding. And that won't always be obvious, unless you're taking the time to pay attention. And the other thing too, we talked about, you talked about the importance of just showing up, having small one-on-ones. We're not talking about 90-minute meetings, just quick touch bases. This serves multiple purposes.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Because number one, we are investing in the relationship bank account. We're creating these natural, organic opportunities for positive interactions that builds trust, that builds warmth, that builds closeness. And now we have the other strategic angle of it too, because you're downloading data. What does this person look like at rest? What does it look like when they're feeling confident, when they're feeling secure, when they understand what I'm saying? And then when we have a conversation of consequence, we can pay attention to those deviations from the baseline. Okay, that body language I saw, that's not typical for them. They said they got it, let me just circle back and approach it from a different way to make sure.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  You know, and so this is the expert nuance that you're bringing here. Because it's not just about the persuasion and the data and everything. It's about understanding the person on a much deeper level. And we can see how that amplifies our persuasion and communication too.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  And as we want people to do something different, and I'm gonna go back to the profession that I love, and I want you to love internal auditors too.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  He smiles. All right, so.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  I'm gonna use your example. You said that, okay, the person you explained something, something technical, and the person in front of you is saying, yeah, I get it. But deep in their heart, they're like, what are they saying? I like to follow up with a question. I like to say, well, now that you and I are on the same page, how do you, how do you think, what's your suggestion on getting the team to digest this recommendation? That's usually my follow-up question. Because that opens up an opportunity for the person to start asking, oh, yeah, well, we should do this and that. And I'm like, oh, but maybe, because then I start listening,

• 23:31Speaker 01

  and I could hear if he or she really understands the recommendation or the change I want them to implement in their area. So the follow-up questions are critical. Because people are like, yeah, yeah, I understand. Half the time, people, especially on your online, people are checking their, their emails or their phone is ringing. Who knows what's happening behind the scenes of that, that screen on their Zoom call? There may be chaos.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  So knowing that, I like to always follow up with a question. So how do we think we could have John implement this process? Because especially, most of the time, I'm speaking to the senior leaders in the organization, and they're not the ones who are implementing the process. So conveying it and having that conversation, so that way, I really get that vibe and say, oh, maybe I should bring in John. Perfect.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  So that's how.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  This is good. This is great. And when I think about your background, again, it is so rich. Because we have the educational background. We have the cultural background. We have fraud. We have internal auditing and everything. But then, we have hypnotherapy. So tell us about that. Because, you know, I think when people think about hypnotherapy, they, they think about the stage, hypnosis, that type of thing. So let's bring this back down to what it is that you actually do and the benefit it could have for folks.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Well, let me tell you. First, I love my birthdays. Every year, my birthday is like a holiday. Okay? So every year, I do something different. I, I say, what haven't I, what country I have not visited? What new thing I could try? I looked online and I saw hypnotherapy. I was like, okay, I'll try it. And it says that you could use hypnotherapy to lose weight. I was like, hey, that's a win-win. I try something new and I could lose weight. Perfect. So I went to a hypnotherapy session,

• 25:59Speaker 01

  and I started talking, and they shared with me what is hypnotherapy. And it's basically, you're talking to your subconscious mind. Your subconscious mind is where you really sit. The conscious mind is things that you've been programmed, programmed or been traumatized. And your defense mechanism is where that lies. And hypnotherapy is when the therapist speaks to your subconscious mind directly, by putting you into a trance, and they work with what should be said. It's not, I come up with the phrases. So I get the, so she got me relaxed

• 26:43Speaker 01

  and helped me understand the connection of what I was, with food. Or food was my thing, right? So that's why I went there, to understand and help me figure out calmly and talk to my Sabine, the true Sabine, the subconscious level, for me to not use food as a crutch. That is what, so now, fast forwarding to how I use it in my work. I was like, this is fascinating. I was losing weight. I was feeling good. And I was like, all of this, no drugs? It's all your mind.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  And I was trying to pass the certification exam. And I said, maybe I could use it to help me pass this exam, because I was getting anxiety over this exam. Guess what? It worked. And I said, I'm gonna learn how to do this. I learned from my hypnotherapist. I went through the course. I took the exams. I practiced how to do it. And now I've implemented into helping people self-hypnotize and for exam anxiety. That's what I do. And so I use that technique, and this is why I have such a high pass rate

• 28:11Speaker 01

  in my, my, one of my businesses, which is Tapa Institute, where the CPA exam across the nation is around 48% pass rate. My clients, 85%. Because we don't only help you with the material, and I teach you on your level, but also I teach you to have, to understand the answer is in, within you. The answer is within you. And we just have to tap it. Tap it. So I use my hypnotherapy knowledge in not only in helping people pass certification exams, but training them to become more empowered, have their voice better heard,

• 28:55Speaker 01

  and also my fellow auditors to communicate and help change minds to implement processes in organizations.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  Incredible. And first of all, congratulations, kudos, because that pass rate is astronomical. That's really important. And it also shows the, the discrepancy between what you know and then what you could do in the moment. Because performance anxiety holds you back from being the best version of yourself when it matters most. And you can study, study, study, and learn everything you need, and it still might not be good enough if you can't perform in the moment. Same is true with tough conversations, too, where you're in a situation where you, after the fact, isn't it interesting how after the conversation, we can remember what it is that we should have been saying after the conversation, but in the middle of it, where our mind goes blank?

• 29:48Speaker 00

  And so when it comes to addressing performance anxiety in conversations, what advice do you have for our audience who might need to convey very technical messages in a persuasive way, in a high-stakes environment, like internal auditors? Because you're helping folks make very, very high-level decisions with data. So how do we make sure that our performance anxiety doesn't get in the way of having the conversation effectively?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Remembering it's not all about you. You have to remember, it's not all about you. My, it's a service. If you go in thinking you're providing a service to the person in front of you, then you, your nervousness disappears. If you're defending your inadequacies, or I don't know if I'm saying the words correctly. English is not my first language. I don't know if I'm sounding stupid. They have, you know, or whatever. You're, you're, you're shutting down your flow, your energy.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  And so if you think about, all right, what is the message? What I do, I actually posted about this on my LinkedIn recently. Because I do, every day, I, I do posts on techniques on how to deal with life. And one of my, one of my things I posted is when you're, when you go into a meeting, you shouldn't try, it's great. Get your documents ready. Get your documents ready. However, you need to audit your mindset. And you have to start thinking, what is the mission of the person who's gonna be at this meeting? What is their mindset of that person?

• 31:40Speaker 01

  What is my mindset? And do I hate this person? And if I'm gonna go for the jugular? You gotta talk yourself out. I am, I am, I talk myself out of a lot of things in my life. So when you have these situations, when you're in the moment, yeah, you're gonna have feelings. Acknowledge them. Take a deep breath and really figure out, what is my core value?

• 32:09Speaker 00

  When we think about the core values, innovation, everything that we've been talking about, and then also the reality that you have to focus on the needs of other people. And sometimes, when we look at ourselves and we become that internal observer, we recognize that some of the things that we want to say or do would be counterproductive. And that, that's something interesting to explore, too, Sabine, because we, we hear so many people talk about authenticity, right? Be yourself. And some people say, take it as a license to just do whatever they want.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Or say whatever they want.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Say whatever. It's like, well, I'm just being me. It's like, you are verbally abusive. Maybe you should change it, right? You know, maybe you should pull it back. So how, how in these moments, how do you check yourself? Because it's easy for us to just say, check yourself. But the actual internal work that's required to do that in the moment is extremely difficult. Because it can feel like you're not just checking yourself, you can feel like you're sacrificing yourself in the moment. So how do you put your ego aside and focus on the other person when you are feeling so strongly?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Training. It's like going to the gym. Are you going to lift that 100-pound weight the first day? Maybe you could hurt yourself.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Or you start out small. Every conversation is an opportunity to train.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  I train myself every morning. I meditate twice a day.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  I sit here and I check myself.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  It's not easy.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Not easy. Not to talk about politics in life.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  It's not easy. So as we live in an environment that is constantly changing, not only through social issues, but also with AI. This job insecurity, forget about food insecurity, job insecurity.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  We have to, again, in that wheel of mine, I talk about continuous learning. I talk about character. I talk about self-care.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Mental, physical, social.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  That's that wheel. That's that leadership me cue. And it's not just working on one thing. Guess what? We are not one dimensional. So we have to work on. You come through in everything you do.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  So if you eat poorly, you must be doing something else in that same kind of mindset. And that's where the hit note therapy comes in.

• 35:09Speaker 00

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• 35:54Speaker 00

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• 36:39Speaker 00

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• 37:04Speaker 01

  Because the pathway of behavior is basically been etched in your mind from very young or from whatever trauma or traumatic. I call it trauma because life is traumatic. That's my interpretation. Take it for what it is. Those moments that developed you. Now, understanding that not every reaction require, not every situation requires the same reaction.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  And so when you know your triggers, and my daughter knows my triggers,

• 37:43Speaker 01

  I have to take a step back. It's called mental gymnastics in a sense. You're really working that muscle for you to. And I'm from, I'm from the West Indies. That's like not even heard of. So.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  I, I was just like, this is a, this is. But after I, after I calmed myself down, then I started laughing. I was like, this girl has a lot of. Oopsa, like, uh. I don't know. I was like, good for her. I was like, God, just that. I was like, that's a good characteristic to be so gutsy. Good for her.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  As a, as a child of Caribbean immigrants, I, I endorse what you just said. It is, it is, and you see Simone, you're busting up from Venezuela. You know, these are new things. And I, it's really, it's hard to hit a target that you don't know exists. I, I remember after being on Mel Robbins, somebody sent me a message and he said, I, I did not know that I could control my emotions. I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't know it was possible. And what's interesting is that for people who listen to the podcast, for people who study leadership, when we think about emotional intelligence, we are at least conscious of it. Whether or not we practice it is, is a completely different thing.

• 39:08Speaker 00

  But we often take for granted just how well-known these concepts, concepts are. That's the first thing. The second thing I want to dig into, which is the brilliant response that you had is training is how you're able to manage yourself in these tough conversations, in these tough situations. And the thing is, when you think about training, some people will almost give themselves an out and say, well, training is expensive. I don't have time to do the training. Well, life's going to give you plenty of opportunities to train these skills. And when you start to think about life as the ultimate training ground, then you recognize that you have opportunities to practice, not just every day,

• 39:52Speaker 00

  just every moment of every day in different ways. And if you can start to think of yourself as somebody who is constantly in training, then you're going to start to get that level of mastery. And that, that's the thing. When you think about the 10,000 hour rule, when it comes to achievement of mastery, it's 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. The, and it's not going to count. It's not going to work unless you are training with intentionality. What did I do well? I'm going to try to replicate that. What did I do poorly? Let me figure out why I did that poorly and try to do something differently in, in the future. And it's just constantly doing that. And what's interesting, and tell me if this resonates with you too, Sabine. Because you'll recognize, it's almost like a video game.

• 40:36Speaker 00

  All right, level one, used to be challenging and now you can handle it. And then you get to level two and level three, and then you realize that life is just full of infinite levels of emotion management. And so yours, it's always going to be challenging. There's always going to be something to learn. But then when you take the moment and you have the self-awareness to say, hold on, where am I currently? Where was I last year at this moment when, when something like this would have happened? Oh, you know what? I would have thrown a plate against the wall. You know, I would have freaked out. This is much better. And we have to celebrate those small wins because that gives us the motivation to continue to improve.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. This is why I posted that story on my LinkedIn. Because I realized that, yeah, my reaction would have been a little bit different

• 41:26Speaker 01

  if I were not practicing my framework. And I want to share, I, I, again, life is full of lemons. You have to make lemonade or sometimes trade those lemons for something else. And you have to realize that this is a training ground and you have to sometimes do a timeout.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Timeout. I take vacation and my husband doesn't like this.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  But I tell him, I said, I need vacation three times a year.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  At least. And one vacation is on my own.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  He's like, why? Why would you? I was like, nah. It's not like I need to go in. Well, I usually go away to a quiet place. But the thing is, I need to be by myself.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Relaxation and doing a timeout is essential for your development.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  And that's how you could go back in the game. It's just like with any sport. If you do, I used to be a weightlifter back in the day. Right? Yeah. And the thing is that you need rest days. Every muscle is trained differently. You need rest days. If you keep training, you're gonna strain yourself or your muscles are not gonna build the way it should be built. Like your cellphone, you cannot plug your cellphone 24/7 because the battery will eventually start draining.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  I give examples that people could relate because a lot of times, and especially in doing research, there's a lot of technical jargon. And it makes it unattainable for people.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  And my want, my desire is to help people understand this is attainable.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  It's not something that you do once and you put it on the shelf. This is part of your DNA. It has to be if you want to improve. It's not a 30-day challenge, 60-day challenge, let's do this, a trend. This is it. And if you want constant, you want to have your voice, your visibility and your value for yourself.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  And the world will see it. The world will see it. And this is where leadership starts from within. And we hear these cliché, we hear these terms all the time. But it's one step at a time.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  And, and, and if you have kids, they are your challenge.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Why did you think spaghetti would be great on the ceiling? Like, they give you your challenges.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Every single day. Yes. Oh, this is so great. And I want to bring in Simone, who's been listening patiently. Simone, what is on your mind?

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Well, you are an expert on feedback too. One of the books that you've written is about feedback. And this is something I struggle being in a different culture. I struggle with that. Because people from Venezuela or from South America, they give and receive feedback in a very different way. I was lucky when I started to work with Kwame because he knows where I come from. So he says, hey, this is wrong, this is right, let's work. So to me, it's clear, easy and direct. So that's why we, we, we create a good team. We make a good team. But here in Canada, feedback is a lot less direct.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  So I struggle a lot and I don't know how to properly give feedback. And I don't understand when I receive feedback because sometimes when they say, is, this is not my favorite thing, they're saying, I hate it. And like, and I understand this is not my favorite. Oh, maybe it's your second favorite or your third favorite. But no, they hate it. So how, for a person who, who comes from outside of this culture, come from the Caribbean, how can I adjust my way of giving and receiving feedback?

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Very interesting. So now I'm gonna just talk about the word feedback, first of all. Okay? And I'll, I'll be happy to respond, I'll respond to your question.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Feedback is not positive or negative. Feedback is someone's opinion.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Clear. Feedback is not po, I, I'm gonna give you feedback. That's my opinion. So now, the recipient, you could take it or you could leave it. Those are your choices in life.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  So when we start framing feedback ac, well, clearly,

• 46:28Speaker 01

  then now, let's answer the question. Are we, so far, are you with me?

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Okay? So it's not positive or negative. It's up to you how you interpret it.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Now, let's flip it. So now they're telling you, you said something very interesting. You realize when they say, that's not my favorite, that means they hate it. So you're already understanding their language. As a person who, English is not my first language either. It's not, I may, you may not hear the accent, but I do have accents. And English is my third language. We need to start, there is always a gap of a comprehension because we're either translating or we have a cultural, like, you know, this means yes,

• 47:24Speaker 01

  this, you know, means no. You understand, we do these things that other people may not really understand. Oh, they just had a whole conversation and they just blinked their eyes three times. Okay?

• 47:37Speaker 01

  It's learning a language. So if you now approach it as, I'm going to learn the language, the Canadian language of feedback. Then you start picking up what these words mean.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  That's it. So you started that already. You told me, oh, when they say, ah, it's not my favorite, that means I hate it. All right. It's not my favorite equals hate. Now you know.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Now you know. And so you start putting a little list together so that you could speak their language. That's what this is. Now, two.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  If you're receiving feedback and you think it's,

• 48:30Speaker 01

  like I said, you could take it or leave it. But I always like to digest it. People, when they give me comments, I don't react immediately.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  I, people like, you just got promoted. And I was like, thank you very much. I'm like, yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  You have to process it.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  I call it stop, think, translate. Stop, think, translate. Because you have to translate into your own language, what was said.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Then if you're still confused, you ask them questions. Now you get their message. Fast forward, you get their message. And you're like, that was nonsense.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Disregard.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  So the reaction needs to be somewhat delayed.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Or you hear them, you translate, you go, they have a point. I'll implement 30% of it. Or all of it, depending on what it is. Because the receiver, you're the filter. You know who you are. Not everything someone says has to influence your behavior. So it's up to you how you react to certain things. Because then you could say, that feedback was intended to, even though you heard the words, were to destroy my confidence, I'm just making stuff up. Or this person really wanted to help me.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  And ask questions. Well, by you saying it's not your favorite, are you saying that, what is your, what would be your favorite? Would be a good question, right? What would your favorite, what would your favorite look like?

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Speak in their language. Did I respond to you?

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Yeah. Thank you so much.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 50:30Speaker 00

  I, I love this response because if I were to put nerdy language on this, it sounds like a lot of cultural intelligence and code switching authentically. Right? Yep. And because the thing is, if we, the, the more granularity we can, with which we can see the world, the clearer the picture is going to be. So if we say, okay, I'm speaking English, they gave feedback, um, not my favorite means this literally, then we're going to be limited. But if we think about feedback as a distinct language, what does the language of feedback mean in this culture or with this person?

• 51:11Speaker 00

  Then we can make the adjustment. Because what often happens is that we, and I think there has to be a balance. We have to be shaping the world to a certain extent, but then also accepting the world as it is and then making authentic adjustments within that. So if it's an interpersonal conversation, we could give them feedback on how they give feedback. Perhaps we could do that. Perhaps. The other thing is recognizing that a lot of times, especially when we think about organizations, there's a hierarchical, hierarchical nature of feedback where it, maybe your boss might not be receptive to your feedback about feedback. So that probably isn't realistic. But what is realistic is to say, okay, I see what this person says. I see what they mean. I can understand their vibe.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  I can understand their lingo and I can make adjustments for this person in this context to make, to, to get a deeper level of understanding. That's incredibly powerful. And so when it comes to these situations, when we're feeling like we can't really connect or understand, just treat it like a cultural immersion program. I am entering their world and my goal is to understand. And when you think about it, then it becomes a fun exploration. Oh, that now you start to understand this person and you communicate in a different way. And then it, for me, I, you know, I, I'm a weirdo. But I take pleasure a lot of times in knowing that there are people where other folks just cannot understand,

• 52:37Speaker 00

  can't get through to, can't connect with, and are constantly frustrated by. And then I can go have an easy conversation and they're like, how did you do that? How did you understand what they were saying? I took the time to immerse myself in their world and understand that sometimes the words that they use don't mean what they mean literally. They have a specific meaning for this particular person. And once you accept that, now the world becomes your oyster. Now these interactions become more fun than scary.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  You know, as an auditor, I actually, this is how, this is my nerdiness coming out now. I had a list on my computer with people's names and key words, if I want them to do stuff, key words that I should use.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  To get them to accept my audit findings. So I had, I have a, I don't wanna show a sticky note with people's names. And I have phrases that I, I parrot back, or I, I realize this is how they process things.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  That's so good.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  It's real. So you step back out of yourself. You're like, what are they saying? Like, yeah, you gotta figure out, okay, what are they saying? More of a curiosity has a, of, of, as opposed to being annoyed.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  It takes practice. This is not like, oh, I'm just gonna do this tomorrow. Hoo hoo hoo. It takes try. See, New York City, the city I love, is a great learning ground. You step out of your house, you are practicing immediately. Dealing with traffic, dealing with people who are talking to themselves, people who are frustrated about life. That, go, come to New York. I'm inviting all your people, all the people who are listening. Come to New York and use this technique. Then you'll start understanding New York is a great city.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  Yes, I, I'll tell you this, my son Kai, when he got there, um, he, he was blown away. He's like, this is a different planet that, that we're on. As a father, there were a lot of, uh, you know, interesting conversations I had to have about, about what he was witnessing. But, you know, gotta roll with the punches.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, just they grow up fast. They grow up fast.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  So true. Sabine, this has been fantastic. I, I really appreciate you coming in. And, um, before you go, uh, let's, let's do this because I know you, you have the, the audit practice, but you also have the leadership competencies and everything that you do. Can you let the listeners know again, the best way for them to, to connect with you and learn more about what you have to offer?

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Well, there are two ways. LinkedIn, link in, LinkedIn, Dr. Sabine Charles.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Guess what? My website, Dr. Sabine Charles dot com. And on my website, you'll see the work that I do. Not only am I a speaker, I also provide trainings, self-paced, because everyone's busy. So you can begin to build and elevate your voice and your visibility and add value. We have self-paced courses, affordable.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  The other thing that I provide are workshops, corporate workshops, and also individual workshops. We have cohorts. And we step into working with what do you want to get out of this?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Whatever this is for you. And my job, our job, is for you to get to that within that timeframe. So it's a two-day workshop with every other month, we call it implementation labs. Like I said, implementation labs, not podcasts, not webinar, not, I'm just going to check my emails while I'm listening and answering questions when they ask me. Implementation labs, where we implement the techniques that are necessary for you to get what you want. And then the third thing that I offer are retreats. I go around the world.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Uh, we're having a retreat to Morocco. We're planning one to Belize. Again, it's about leadership, tapping into your greatness, tapping into your leadership MEQ. So you could find me on LinkedIn, and I post every day on techniques. And then also, we have on my website, you could find information and my book of Leadership MEQ, which is also in French, Spanish, Portuguese, and English. And all of my courses are in those four languages too. No barrier. If you don't, so my friend, if you want it in French or Spanish, it's available to you.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  Amazing. Sabine, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.