How to Turn Criticism Into Opportunity (Without Losing Your Authenticity)

Travel doesn’t just show you the world — it shows you yourself. And sometimes, what you discover is not what you expected. In this powerful conversation, journalist and travel creator Nicole Phillip joins Kwame to explore the intersection of identity, race, storytelling, and courage. She opens up about her life-changing study abroad experience in Italy — the joy she imagined, the racism she didn’t expect, and the moment she realized she wasn’t alone when hundreds of thousands of people reached out to say, “This happened to me too.” Nicole also shares the bold leap from ABC News and The New York Times to becoming a full-time travel creator — walking away from corporate America, trusting her voice, and building a platform rooted in truth, research, and authenticity. Connect with Nicole ⁠YouTube Channel ⁠ ⁠Instagram Account

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Have you ever noticed how travel changes you? You leave home thinking that you're just going somewhere new and you end up learning something about yourself. That's what today's conversation is all about. Identity, storytelling, and the kind of confidence that comes from seeing the world through your own eyes, not through somebody else's lens. My guest is my friend Nicole Phillip. She lives right at that intersection. She's a journalist, popular travel influencer, and brilliant storyteller who helps travelers explore the world. And she does it with humor, honesty, and a perspective that makes you think. We talk about what it really means to show up as yourself, online, in new cultures, and in life.

• 0:43Speaker 00

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• 1:56Speaker 00

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• 1:59Speaker 00

  You know what's funny, Nicole? So I did, so when I was getting started speaking, I started to do this exercise where I would say, alright, I want to see, I want to kind of test myself. And so what I would do is when I'm driving, I would just see random things and I would force myself to talk about that random thing for two minutes, nonstop. It's like, okay, grass, well, let me tell you about grass. You know, it's like as if I'm presenting on this. You know, I see a cow, I'm in Ohio, so I see a cow. I'm like, well, let me tell you about a cow. You know, and it's, it's funny to see how a lot of these little training things that I would do in the, from way back when are helping me today when it comes to public speaking.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  You are a great speaker, and it has encouraged me to try to speak more, I think, be more intentional as I speak so that I am more smooth with my delivery. Literally, just listening to your voice, I was like, hey, good. I'm like, I gotta, I gotta get better at this. Especially if I'm trying to be more in the public speaking world, so you are inspiring.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Thank you, that means a lot. And actually, this is funny because this gives me an opportunity to go back to an unintentionally controversial post that I made. And listeners, trust me, there's a segue coming from this too. So I made this post where I said, um, hey, listen, when I speak, people say, hey Kwame, you're very articulate, articulate, you speak so well. And I know that there are some people who take that as an insult, where there's an assumption, oh, you're a black person, and then you speak well, and then that's why you get the compliment. And I say, yeah, there are some times where that's true. And also, there are some times where you, as a person or a black person, have, you have these skills,

• 3:43Speaker 00

  and then we deny the compliments because we assume racial intent behind it. And so my thing is, if I have an opportunity to feel good with an interpretation of a situation, I'm going to feel good about it. So yes, thank you, I do speak well. That was very controversial online, which was, I found to be very fascinating. And it kind of segues into you and what you do because you're, you don't talk just about travel. You talk about the nexus between travel and race. And some of your posts have been kind of unintentionally controversial too.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's, it's a very interesting space to be in. First of all, and you know, as they say in the world, like, there's no such thing as bad publicity. So I guess for some people, they're always, it doesn't really matter what the reason is that something takes off. They're just happy that it took off. And the internet, unfortunately though, is a very terrible place.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  The internet is very toxic. It's a very terrible place, though. I have had a few videos where I will post my, my thoughts on something. You might think that, or I might think that it's completely benign. No way this can be controversial, I'm giving, or I'm giving an opinion. How can someone be so against my opinion? And I'll share that, and then it'll blow up, and then there'll be people telling me all sorts of vile and crazy things. And it, it can be difficult, especially when the topic is very specifically tied to race. Now, one thing about me, when I do my content, I never post anything that I cannot stand ten toes down on. That is my baseline, because I know how the internet responds.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  So if I'm going to post an opinion, and I always tell people this, I'm like, I don't care about your thoughts and feelings, because when I post, post an opinion, or, and I post some sort of like factual information, when I say it is based in research, these are, these are well-fought-out opinions based on not just experience, but information that I have gathered through my research, through talking to experts within this field. And so when people comment and they're like, well, I think that, you know, when I went and I felt this, okay, let's, let's compare that to the Harvard study that I read that also corroborates my feelings on this particular thing. Because before I decided to just say, this is how I feel, these are my thoughts, I made sure that there was something backing this, that it wasn't just

• 6:09Speaker 01

  something, I guess, maybe irrational that I was feeling or thinking, or whatever it is, that there's actual support for what I experienced, what I observed, what I noticed. And, but, and I think that when you, when you're able to do that in the space that I'm in, that involves these, in this intersection of race, culture, travel, when you're able to do that, it makes it a little bit easier to deal with the, the vitriol in the comments. Because then you're like, I mean, well, I'm right, you can, you can be as mad as you want to be. Or like, or I feel good, I feel confident in what I, in what I said. You can be as mad as you want to be. And, and it's so important, too many people, and this is the last I'll say on this, too many people post without doing a lick of research, without doing any thoughts.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  They, they move very quickly, which I understand the desire to do so, because internet moves fast. It's 24/7 world, I get it. But I think a lot more people should sit back, breathe, read a little, you know, read a little something before you give an opinion. So your opinion can be educated. Not enough people give educated opinions, let's, let's say that.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  First of all, what is an educated opinion on the internet nowadays? Like, it's, it's, it's so rare, except when we see people like you who have a journalistic background. I think that's one of the things that separates you as an influencer. Because you're not just coming here, you know, shooting from your hip. It is grounded in research, and there are some standards that you need to meet as a journalist. You bring that journalistic expertise and standard to what it is that you do. And then you also ground it in experience that nobody can take away from you. And I think that's what has led to this incredible rise that you've had in such a short period of time, since you've transitioned from being a journalist full-time to bringing the journalistic background to your career as a travel influencer.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  So yeah, I have this journalistic background. I started off in the television news industry. For those who are familiar with my, my progression, I was working at ABC News, then I moved into the digital world, and I was working at the New York Times. I actually worked on the 1619 project at the time, when I was really, really big. I was working on the digital publication of that. And I transitioned into social media. So when I first started out, social media wasn't a big thing, as big of a thing as it is now in terms of needing people to actually man the social media channels for some of these big brands. And once that started becoming more of a thing, I started dabbling more into the world of social media. And it was around 2021 when I decided that I wanted to start kind of getting my feet wet in that world.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  And I was sharing my opinions. This is, I wasn't traveling yet, I was just sharing my opinions. And the one thing that has always remained true, when I share my opinion, share my thoughts, is that I cannot post a video without feeling like I'm on solid ethical ground. Without feeling as though I can support the things that I'm saying with some sort of research, some sort of reputable source. I'm not just talking out of my behind, like, I, I want to make sure that if anyone ever tries to combat me, tries to, tries to fight me on my, my opinion, it's, no, you know, I, I actually can, can reference

• 9:25Speaker 01

  some, some places for you to go, go and read, beyond TikTok or beyond Instagrams, places where you can actually go and read things, so that you can understand what I'm saying. You don't have to agree with me, but if we're going to debate, let this, let's let this be a, a little bit more of an elevated, educated debate, and not just a, I feel, I think, I, you know, like that. And now, when I decided I wanted to get more into the travel world, this was top of last year. Now, I left my job with no plan, mind you, I did not have a plan as to how I was going to get this done. I just decided that it was time for me to do my own thing. Become a freelancer within the world of social media and journalism,

• 10:06Speaker 01

  and as well as become an influencer, a travel influencer. How does one, like, just think about how nonsensical that sounds right now, right? I'm going to leave my job in the middle of a white collar recession. That's what we're calling it now, right? This, the white collar recession. In, and I was working in tech at the time, so that was actually the worst place to be trying to find a job in the middle of a white collar recession. And I'm going to become an influencer. What? It's a very nonsensical, if a friend told me I'm going to quit my job, leave my job, and become an influencer, I would be like, that sounds actually crazy. And I mean, I need you to sit right there in that job, that's right.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  But it just felt like the right time, the stars aligned in the way that it needed to, so I did that. And one thing that Had always been kind of the bedrock of everything I do within this world is my opinions and my commentary. So that's something I kind of, like I said, I did before. And then I also mold that into the travel content that I do. And it's always been something that people come to me for. I started off doing reviews. Reviews are heavily opinion based, right? But even in those reviews of different cities, as you seen Kwame with my Italy review. I was sharing articles, like it's not like, if I say this thing happened to me that I had a negative experience in this place, it's easy to say that's just you.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  But what's not easy to say is it's what's not easy is to write off the experience of that first black minister within the Italian parliament, who had an epiphany made of her banana stone at it. Or that black athlete who was assaulted with eggs and her eye was injured. All of the black, uh, other black athletes who have banana stone at them while they're playing soccer.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  It's harder to dismiss all of these different cases. And so when I started doing these reviews, I started making sure that I was able to pull on other, ref- reference other experiences or reference other news articles, reference other things that make it more difficult to say, no, Nicole is just wrong. It's just a Nicole experience. And the reason why I do that is because I was inspired to do what I do. Because there was a time when I thought I was the only one. Now we gotta bring it back, back. We actually gotta bring it back. So the year is 2013. I was a young lad. I'm just like, okay, let's stop.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  I was probably nineteen, twenty years old. I decided that I was going to study abroad in Italy. I went to NYU and it's kind of the thing to do. You don't go to NYU without studying abroad. It's known as the global campus. It's a whole thing. And I decided I was going to go to Italy. Now, I had never crossed the Atlantic. I'd only gone to the Caribbean a few times. Uh, I had, this was my first time crossing the Atlantic. So my thoughts on Italy were what I saw on TV. I was thinking about the Lizzie McGuire movie. I was thinking about Vespa and pizza and pasta and just like romance. And it was just cute. Like, that's all I was thinking. I had a few roommates who were also, they had studied abroad in Italy. They had a great time. They were telling me about, oh, my gosh, you have to go to this, uh, panini shop that's around the corner from the school. It's going to be so great. Oh, and this other girl's talking about how she had her little Italian boyfriend.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  And it was just like an amazing, just whimsical European story that you, you, you think about, that you read about, that you eat, pray, love, all that. That's what I was hearing.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Now, when I finally get my chance to experience all of this wonder and splendor of Italy, it was the complete opposite of anything that I had imagined up to this point. I had been prepped by my school for Italians being bold. No one said anything about racist. I think one, one hell of a euphemism for racist. They're not politically correct. Oh, racist. Now, now I know what that means.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  And so I, to kind of run down the incidents quickly, I had had beer thrown on me. I was called a disgusting black woman while I defended a black woman who was being manhandled while she was on the beach. I had people cross the street on me screaming my face because they're afraid in broad daylight that I'm going to mug them or something. I've had people ignore me at that. And when, this is back when I was studying, I had had people ignore me while I was walking down. She didn't ask me for directions. She was literally just turning their nose up. At this point, I spoke very good Italian, so it wasn't that they didn't understand what I was saying. There was just this overall feeling of being unwelcome. I had to ask children for directions, uh, on the bus because adults didn't want to speak to me.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  It, I'd never felt so terrible at this. I remember, actually, this is another thing that I didn't, haven't, hadn't shared in the article that I wrote, nor did I share in the video. But I remember a recent, I re- that. I remembered recently when I went to a party at some point. And this is after a few different incidents had happened. I thought I looked so good. I felt so good about myself. I had a beautiful black dress on and I remember sitting on a couch and crying. And I remember I was crying and I was like, I was crying because at the, the day that I felt the most beautiful I'd ever felt in that country,

• 15:27Speaker 01

  I also felt the most unwanted, ugly, disgusting because of how people treated me, because that's how they treat me. They did not want to interact with me. They were moving away from me, like, you know, you're dancing and then they kind of go over to the corner like that. I had never had that happen to me. And I just sat there and I cried.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And I don't remember at what point in my journey or my time in Italy that was. But it just had recently came back to my memory, that time that I, like, I was the girl crying in the club. Oh, my gosh. Like, I, I really, like, that was me. Now I understand. I understand why someone would do that.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  And so that's, those are, that's just some quick hits on the types of things that I experienced while I was in this country. And now, these different incidents, they didn't just happen in the city of Florence. I always want to make that clear to people. I was traveling up and down the country. I never felt welcome in any part of the country.

• 16:25Speaker 00

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• 18:15Speaker 01

  And we fast forward now about five years later and I'm working at the New York Times. And I felt like I really wanted to share this story. So I reached out to, and this was really just to be cathartic and make some money. They, they, they pay you too. Like, even if you're a staffer, they'll still pay you to write. Let me, let me get some rent money and then also write this story. And, you know, they took the pitch, they were down with it. And so I decided, okay, I'll write this. This essay was really just for me. And as I'm writing the essay, I'm looking, trying to find, a- as I mentioned, and when I read, when I write my thoughts, share my experience, write an opinion, I try to find things to corroborate, you know? Hey, like, let me do some research on these different types of things. So I tried to look for other people who had my experience and I wasn't finding anything.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  I think I found maybe came across at that point in, this would be 2018, one blog. And that was pretty much it. And I had, couldn't really find anything. I, I did find the, the, the athlete who had her, uh, I, her harmed by the egg. And I found the, the black ministers who had the epiphany made of her. But just regular stories from other people, I wasn't seeing. And so I wrote my story. I got my money. I was happy. I kind of was like, okay, this is a good release. I had moved on. That story got hundreds of thousands of views. And it was after that story you got all of those views or, yeah, sometime, like sometime while the views were building,

• 19:40Speaker 01

  I started getting all of these comments and, and messages on Twitter and they were like, wow, this, this happened to me. Thank you for sharing this. I'm, I'm an Asian woman and this happened to me in this country. I'm so and so and this happened to me in that country. I, you know, a- and it was just more and more stories of people telling me that, thank you, I'm, I'm no longer alone.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  This, this, I just felt like it was just me. Thank you for sharing this. And, and there were, there were also some study abroad programs that had reached out to me and said, wow, thank you for sharing this information. We're now going to, we're going to build this into our curriculum now to make sure that we better prepare students. And I was like, here, I was just trying to get my, my rent money and my little spending money. And I'm kind of getting some feelings out there. And I started a whole conversation. The mayor of Florence was reaching out to me, trying to invite me to speak with him. Yeah.

• 20:33Speaker 00

  No way.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, the mayor of Florence reached out to me to speak with students about racism. And I never took him up on the offer. And it wasn't even a direct, it, it, it didn't feel like a real invite because he just kind of, I think he said it to a newspaper. We invite Nicole to come out. If you really want to invite me, you reach out directly to, you know, I work at the mayor guy. If you really wanted to reach out to me, you could. He was like, oh, I, we invite her to come speak at, at, to students about, about racism and all that. And I was like, I, you know, I could have found a way to try to reach out to him myself, but I was like, I don't want to be his Kanye. And if you remember at the time how Kanye was being used.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  I was like, I don't want to be his Kanye. And so I just kind of let that, yeah, I, so I never took him up on that offer. I was being dragged in tabloids or Italian tabloids, I guess.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  I was interviewed for Vanity Fair Italy. It became a whole thing. Off of this story that I thought was just me getting my feelings out there. I didn't know what to do with this, though. Right?

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  I didn't know what to do with this understanding and knowing that there's clearly a gap here. In what travel is like for black people. I didn't actually know what to do with this information. Or not just black people, because like I said, there are people of other races reaching out to me to tell me. So I didn't really know what to do with this. This was before social media was really popping, like YouTube was like the thing. In terms of content creation. And so I didn't really know what to do with this. So I just kind of, kind of let that be what it was. An interesting moment in my life where I felt like I did something important. And then that's when TikTok came around and I told you all about that and how I came to where I am today.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  And so why I do what I do, and I'm actually kind of forgot exactly what started me on this, this little backstory. But why I do what I do is because for so long, I thought I was the only one. And I hurt for five years, thinking that my story was an anomaly. And thinking that maybe I had done something. Maybe, maybe it was because I looked to this, looked to that, maybe. It was just so many things going through my head. And that was, that is what encouraged me, seeing the response to that, to that story. And people still reach out to me today about that story.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Or someone will talk to me and be like, that was you. I read that, you know? Like that, after they find out. But what I do today, when I talk about my experiences as a traveler, when I review these different cities, when I, when I dig deep into cultural, cultures and histories that people don't really think about or talk about. I, I do it because of my past experience and wanting to feel more connected to the, to the travel community in a way that made me feel seen. Right? So I want to create content for other people out there who are like, I want to go to XYZ place, but should I? Like, what would it be like for me as a dark skinned black woman or, or a woman of Asian descent, whatever it is?

• 23:56Speaker 01

  How will it be, what will it be like for me? And that's who I make content for. And anyone else who wants to be privy to what life is like?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  When you don't look, when you might look a certain way or whatever that is. I have a very wide ranging audience, which is what I love to see. There are people from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all races, all cultures, who enjoy my content because at the same time as I'm sharing this information so that I can help people to be better prepared than I was, that's at the baseline, better prepared than I was for what life would be like abroad. While at the same time while I'm doing this, I'm also just providing historical information and cultural information and humor. I, I like to make people laugh, like in between, in between all that. I like to make people laugh. So I'm happy to see the audience that I've built over time and, and to see that I'm helping to.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  There's a lot, I will also say, there are a lot more resources now than when I was traveling. But I'm happy to be one of those resources now for people who are looking to travel so that they can, like as I mentioned before, be better prepared than I was.

• 25:07Speaker 00

  There's so much to explore here. So first of all, thank you for telling me the story and your experience. And I, I realize also the, this is like a public good that you've created with the information. Because it's so important for people to have appropriate intel going into a situation. Because like you said before, you thought you were the only person who experienced this. And it wasn't until you shared that story that other people came to you to share more about they, the fact that they had similar experiences. But going into it, even if you still, if you could have had the opportunity to read your piece from somebody or a piece from somebody like you before going.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  At least you would have been able to go in with a little bit more of a heads up, like, oh, this is not just going to be, you know, Vespas and Aperol sprits. You know, there's going to be some bold behavior that is way farther than bold. Like flagrantly racist, right? So you could actually be more, more prepared.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 00

  And I remember, here's, here's an example. It doesn't, it doesn't really, it's, it's, it's slightly different. But I remember when I did my TED Talk, there was somebody, they had a series of mentors that you could talk to before going into. And there was a guy who was a gay male. Who was talking about his experiences, a gay man. And so he said, he was so excited about his TED Talk, he was very proud of it. And one of the first comments he got was, man, I can't even hear this because he sounds so gay. And he's like, I was, like me and my partner, we were devastated. We were so excited sharing that out to everybody that we knew. And then I saw that comment. I was just, I felt ashamed.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  And so I knew, they coached me, they're like, listen, you're going to get some comments. And so going into that, I knew I was going to get it. So it changed the impact that it had on me, you know? And so that's why it's, it's so important for you and people like you to share these stories. It's not spreading negativity, it's spreading information. That like we said, going back to your, your background as a journalist and somebody who cares about the truth and sharing experiences accurately, you have the data to substantiate it. And then you also have your experience and you treat the topic fairly, right? And so it's, I, I just want to make sure that I, I, I check that box to let people know why this is so important.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  And I also want to talk about how you handle the, the, the folks who are ignorant who comment on your post. I remember in particular, there was somebody who commented on your, your Italy post. Who said, I think, and I'm quoting here, I'm sorry that happened to you and my experience was much different. And the way you handled that man in the comments was just a masterclass. Can you tell us about that?

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yes, this mysterious man. Oh, wow. If only we knew who he was.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  So, yes, I, the man, the comments, the comment section is the worst place on the internet. And, and I kind of handle it similarly to what you just described, is like knowing this is the type of backlash or, or commentary that you're going to get when you go into certain spaces. Looking the way that we do, being who we are. You can be talking about butterflies and rainbows, it does not matter sometimes. People who want to be ignorant are going to be ignorant. And having that knowledge, because after Italy, as you, as you've seen, I continued to travel. It's not that racism never stopped happening, right? Didn't just stop. I was so much better prepared for it, that it didn't have to ruin the entire experience.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  So that's important to, to know, like, in the, in the beginning, comments were really hurtful and, and, and it can be kind of harsh. But then I started realizing, this is the way of the internet. I expected it. I can kind of anticipate at this point, the type of comments I'm going to see. And, and, and they're like, for every video, there are three types of comments and people reword them in different ways and post them a hundred different times, right? They're, they're, they're not, they're not original. They do not share original thoughts in these comments. And so I've come to anticipate the types of comments that I'm going to get. And so I am, for the most part, ready. And like I said, because I research before I post,

• 29:37Speaker 01

  I can stand ten toes, ten toes down on everything that I say. So the comments don't really bother, now, the types of comments that would bother me is a comment that was, that's like, well, actually, this piece of information is incorrect. And then I go back and find out that piece of information actually is incorrect. And I'm like, dang it. Ah, you got me. You are actually right. Man, now I gotta take the whole video down. Those are the types of comments that would bother me. Because that means I failed. I didn't do my part. You're right. Like, I, I actually messed up. I, I, I shared incorrect, as a journalist, especially this bothers me. Some people don't mind being wrong on the internet. Or like sharing misinformation on the internet. I do.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  And so you've told me now, I did not do my, my due diligence as a journalist. Now I either have to like do an edit, you know, in the caption. You know, this is new information or something. I'm going to thank you for whatever, depending on how you, how you share it. If you're mean to me, I'm just deleting your comment and I'll add my edit. But I'm just, you don't get to be mean to me in my comments. But those are the types of comments that would bother me, the types of comments that show that I did not do my due diligence as a journalist. And, but that means I just needed, I need to do something. I need to correct. The other types of comments, I'm quick with the delete, block, restrict, like, oh, like, I, whatever. I am quick to hit that button. I, now you can use this or not, if you want to, but I'm, I am not the US government.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  I do not owe you freedom of speech on my platform. If you say something I do not like, if it's me, if it's hurtful, whatever it is, I do not owe you the right to stay in my comment section. I don't owe you that. And so, and freedom of speech does not, as people say, does not mean freedom of consequence. So if your speech gets you blocked, that, that was the consequence. And, and so I protect my piece in that way. I, I monitor my comments very, very, very strictly. And so I am always on top of it, but I'm, I have rarely seen a comment that actually hurt me in recent, like in the past like year or so.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Haven't seen a comment that actually hurt me in any way, because like I said, it's the same three comments over and over again, written in different thought, following.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  It makes sense. And the, but the thing is too, Nicole, because you do, which I think is smart. You block restrict the people who are toxic. There are some toxic comments that are meant to be intentionally hurtful. But then there's just ignorant comments that you still entertain. I don't want to say entertain in terms of you consider it legitimate. But you at least are, you're willing to respond in a way that is, is oftentimes much more respectful than the commenter deserves. And I want to talk about that ethos too, because I think that's unique.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's, I'm working on being nicer commenter, like no responding nicer into comments. So that's, that's a new thing.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  I usually, I mean, I have no problem being a little spicy if I need to be spicy, but I'm always very just aware of like digital footprint. And things like that. I'm not going to say anything insulting, anything that I would have read if you, if, if someone took a screenshot of that and sent it to a partner that I have a partnership with, like a brand or something like that. I don't want to feel like, oh yeah, now I gotta explain that word. Like I, I don't ever want that to be a situation that I'm in. So I, I, I think a lot of it has to do with just understanding. Like I said, the digital footprint aspect of things. And then also

• 33:15Speaker 01

  being mean doesn't necessarily get the response that you want. I just, I usually just respond to facts like, oh, that's actually incorrect. Here, here, here's a fact. Sometimes, sometimes I'll just ask like my favorite response to people. When they say, and I'm, and it's always when someone's obviously not black, I say this, whenever someone says, that's incorrect. Like, like, let's say it's a review about Italy. Let's go back to that. Oh, that's incorrect. That's not right. Italy is not a racist place. My favorite way to respond to that type of person is, are you black? Mind you, they, their profile picture will be as white as can be. It will be very clear that they are not. And I'll say, are you black? And that usually like, it gets the point across. Are you black?

• 33:58Speaker 01

  It gets everything across. I don't have to say anything more. And I do my best to not respond to a comment to like more than maybe twice to a person. Like they'll respond, then maybe I'll respond again. I do my best not to respond more than twice, but that's something that I'm currently working on because sometimes I will start going back and forth. And I'm like, actually this is stupid. This person, like this person is just saying words. Now I'm going back and forth with someone who's just, just saying anything that comes to their head. They're not actually doing any ounce of research. They're just going to stick to their thoughts and feelings and call it a day. So eventually I will just stop responding, but I do try my best. And something I'm, I'm really doing more and more now to back to

• 34:38Speaker 01

  that mysterious commenter that left that, that, that comment. And who knows who, who that could be. That was actually a time when I was practicing how I respond specifically to that sort of comment, that comment of that, that where the sentiment is general is, is essentially, that didn't happen to me. So it doesn't happen. There's different variations of that didn't happen to me. So it's not true. And I've been trying to work on, how do I respond to that? Because I get that a lot. That when you do reviews and you talk about your experiences, and especially when you're a black woman talking about your different experiences, you will come across a lot of that didn't happen to me. So it doesn't happen. And when I, the way in which I was responding before

• 35:21Speaker 01

  was not getting the right response. People would just say, well, that's just their opinion. Why can't they just share their opinion? And that's, and I'm like, oh no, it's not just about, it's different. It, it, it's different to genuinely share like an opinion, maybe in your own video. I've seen other people have this such and such experience, but here's my experience. But you kind of like to hijack my video. To now say, this is my experience. You're kind of invalidating, even if you don't do hit, hit a little, I'm sorry, but anyway, this didn't happen to me. The way I equate this is, and I actually saw, originally saw someone say this in a thread post that I had posted. And I was like, this is a perfect way to articulate this, is that when someone shares a bad experience, when they're traveling or from travel,

• 36:07Speaker 01

  and you say something like, oh, I'm sorry, but that didn't happen to me. It's equivalent to saying, you know, I'm sorry that your leg is broken. Both of mine still work. So you're looking at someone's pain and like, you're, you're saying, well, I'm sorry you're in pain, but I'm, I'm actually, I'm perfectly fine. I, I, I feel great actually. And, and, and, and just, and if you think about it in that respect, it makes you, hopefully makes you the commenter rethink, why, why did I say that? Why did I say that that way? It does kind of invalidate this person's very real experience. My two legs working does not mean that their leg doesn't work. My, me having good experiences not mean that they did not have a good experience. And to add to that,

• 36:50Speaker 01

  some of the frustration I feel when coming to those sorts of comments is that if they would just scroll a little bit, they'll see so many other comments of people having a very, very similar experience to me. That you can see it's not just me.

• 37:06Speaker 00

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• 37:51Speaker 00

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• 39:05Speaker 01

  And then mind you, like in the video, I provided other examples, but like, I'm like, if you just scroll just a little bit, like you'll see so many other people saying, yes, this happened to me. You'll see Italians saying, yes, this is how my country is. You'll see black Italians saying, yes, this is how things are. So it, it, it is frustrating, which is why I were used to respond more harshly to people like that. And then I've decided, okay, that's not working though. Let me try a different approach.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  So there's so much to explore here. I, I think from a very practical position, the, your source of confidence, it comes from being able, you're able to stand 10 toes down on what it is that you're saying because you did the work. And when you think about all of the tough conversations we might have day to day, if you take the time to prepare and make sure that your arguments are unassailable and they're rooted in fact. And also you can, whenever possible, base it in, in, by citing sources that are outside of yourself, not biased in your own favor. Then it makes it so much easier for you to have those conversations, number one. And number two, it doesn't feel like a personal threat. Cause a lot of times if you're not as prepared, the comebacks that people might have or the criticisms might seem scarier

• 40:11Speaker 00

  because you yourself don't know how to respond, but you've done the work. And for that mystery commenter, I was so impressed with how you handled it because I was able to go back and see how this clown embarrassed himself because I was able to look at my book and how to have difficult conversations about race and say, this is what he did, and this is what he did, and this is why he was wrong. And that person was me. I was the person who said that comment. It's me. And what was funny is that I just like, like a week before came back from Italy and had a nice time. And I was like, oh no, Italy's racist too. And then I just gave that comment and passed and and moved on. And then as soon as you responded with, hey, that's like saying, um, hey, I'm sorry,

• 40:56Speaker 00

  your leg is broken, but mine worked fine. I was like, oh my Lord, I am a case study that would for my next book, right? And the thing, but again, you handled it so well. Um, and in a way that allowed me to just accept responsibility. I wrote like the longest apology in two separate comments. Um, but I wanted to make sure that people could see the like, the, the error in my ways and but also how well you handled it too. Because if you would have, let's say it's somebody else. And if you would have responded harshly, then they feel bad and focus on their own feelings without evaluating their thought process and their beliefs and what it is that you're saying.

• 41:38Speaker 00

  So I just want to give you like kudos because it was a masterclass. And it's not, you know, the best way for relationships to start. But here we are, we're friends now. It's, it's good. It worked out in the end. But it, but I think the reason why it did was because you handled yourself so well in that interaction. And instead of like giving me the smackdown, which I fully deserved, um, and you would have been well in your rights to do, you, you chose a different approach that was far more persuasive. And now hearing this thought process and how you've, you're saying, hey, intentionally, I want to, I want to practice responding in a way that is more aligned with my ultimate goals. Because you, you might want to clap back at somebody

• 42:21Speaker 00

  harshly, and it might make you feel good in the moment, but it doesn't further your ultimate aim. And so you're just, I just wanted to make sure that we, I give you your flowers on that because you're doing it in such a really, really powerful way.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  That comment was my, my testing ground for, for my response. You're the first person that I was able to respond to with that. And I'm glad that it turned out the way that it did, even though there were still people that were like, no need to be mean or rude or whatever. You, you have so much attitude, whatever it is, like, you can't win.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  I was, I was so upset. Nicole, I was like, I, I spent, I, I gave like a 30,000 word dissertation on why I was wrong. Do not come in here and support me in my ignorance. It was wild.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  People are, people will read whatever they read things the way they want to read it and interpret things the way they want to interpret it. I can only do my best to respond in a way that, that educates as best I can instead of pushing people away. I think that, um, I think that we've lost the recipe and how to do that a lot, just in general. And I'm trying, I'm just saying I'm perfect. So next you know, someone goes through my comments, they're like, what was she saying? She was being nice to people. And she, she was trying to educate. I called a few people, a couple of picnics in the comments of your time. So you might see, don't please some of those. Um, but I do feel like we have lost the, the ability to kind of have some of these less,

• 43:47Speaker 01

  to have the escalated conversations and to be a little bit more, I don't know, maybe the word is, is empathetic. I think also, it was easier for me to give you that sort of response because your comment didn't, wasn't angry, it wasn't hateful, it wasn't, it was just, I didn't have that experience. And to me, that seemed like it was coming more from a place of just not realizing what this says, what this does. And so I was like, okay, I think this person wasn't trying to harm, you know, bring harm. They just, it truly did not really think about this. So I

• 44:27Speaker 01

  think this is a good opportunity to respond in this way. And I think that as we go through life, as we're having negotiations, as we're communicating with people, I think practicing a little bit more of that de-escalation, you know, maybe try to like speak to people with, here, here are some examples. Maybe they might not understand if I just cursed them out. So maybe I should try giving an alternative example for them to understand why this might sound like this, or how this can come off, and kind of helping people to understand how you feel. I think that's what that comment did, let you know how I feel. Because it was a way that I hadn't been able to articulate in a while. And so I saw that person on my threads post say that a, as

• 45:08Speaker 01

  to why it bothered me so much. And I read that. And I, again, my initial responses to people were, you're invalidating me. You just want everybody to see you as like some, you know, one of the good ones. Like you just think you're so great. And then, and, and then I was like, this is actually a much better way. Let me tell you how I feel. And I want you to, and I'm going to explain in a way that maybe we can all relate to, and see where that takes me. And it brought me here. So that's good.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Here we go. It's so funny. It's like, what, what are the odds? You, you have a persuasion technique you want to try out. And it's like, oh, let me try it out on the CEO of the American Negotiation Institute. But what does he think? Oh, well, chef's kiss. It was perfect.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 45:49Speaker 00

  And I think this actually gives us a good opportunity to pivot too. Because when we look at the, the arc of your career now as, as an influencer, one of the things that is, is part of that life is the brand deal, the art of negotiating brand deals, but more even before the actual negotiation, it is how you're able to make yourself attractive for the brands who ultimately want to work with you. Um, when you think about your background as a journalist, how has that impacted the brand deals that you've been able to attract?

• 46:20Speaker 01

  I think that that has been incredibly helpful in the brands that I attract, because I'm talking about pretty, for some could be controversial topics, things that could really go left, depending on who was delivering the information. And I can only imagine that for some people, it makes it more difficult for them to be attractive to brands, because they might be kind of nervous about the reputation, or, you know, this might be a little too spicy, or whatever it is for us. But because of the journalistic background that I have, and the fact that I, I weave that into the work that I do, I'm able to present information in a way that is not

• 47:00Speaker 01

  super controversial. It's not going, it's not going to get me canceled. I'm not sharing any sort of unfounded opinion that is going to make a brand look bad for working with me. And I think that's been one of the, the biggest drivers of the engagement that I've seen, the popularity that I've seen, the growth that I've seen. And because I'm, I'm brand safe, it makes the content that I create brand safe, even though I'm still in this lane that could so easily become not brand safe, depending on which direction you want to go in, or how you deliver the information. I'm able to use my journalistic background to create brand safe content that still makes me attractive to the different brands who want to work with someone who reaches these different

• 47:43Speaker 01

  communities, who can speak to these difficult topics, who can be someone who is a trusted source and is authentic within these spaces, while still, you know, telling it like it is, and whatever it is, while still being able to have the, the, again, the brand, the brand safetiness, uh, that brands do look for, because that's important for them. They want someone that like, if we attach our name to this person, how does this make us look? Uh, and I, and because I tried to be very ethical, I tried to make sure that all of my opinions are, are well structured, founded in, in research and all of that. It helps me to be able to stay true to who I am, deliver the content in the way that I want to deliver it, while also making sure that a brand can still see themselves working with me.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  So smart. It makes, it makes a lot of sense. And I want to double click on, on one phrase that you said, one term, you said, well structured. And that, it, that really set off, uh, like, uh, an alarm, not an alarm bell, like a siren in my head, like, that's what it is that makes your, your, your content stick out so much, because it is so well structured. There's an intentionality behind the delivery in a way that I, that is rare in the industry too. So this, can we take a little, little side quest here to get a masterclass on well structured content? Because I feel like the art of structuring ideas and communication in, in a high level way, it's becoming a lost

• 49:11Speaker 00

  art. So when you talk about well structured content, well structured writing, what does that really mean?

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Ah, yes. Let me, let me put you in journalism 101. Let's, let's do this. Because I actually, that, that is how I have developed my content over time to mirror that of the things that I did while I was a full-time journalist working within these journalism, uh, companies. And I look at it, and you can look at it the same way, whether you're doing a video or you're doing an article, is you have your lead, or your hook, whichever you want to call it, your nut graph, which is, uh, your paragraph that kind of encapsulates everything. And if people want to keep going forward, they'll keep going to read more information as you're doing this. We look at it as like an inverted pyramid, I believe it is. So it, and then the, the information

• 49:58Speaker 01

  distills itself. And then at the very end, we have what's called a kicker. So it's just like a little bit of information. Maybe it's just a little humorous clip, whatever it is, kicks you out of the story. If you're in journalism 101, that is the basics of an article. Lead, nut graph, kicker. Everything in between, like, people should be able to read your nut graph, and they'll know everything they need to know. And then they read everything else. If they want a little bit more information, your kicker is just one last bit of something that maybe didn't fit in the rest of everywhere else. It's just a little bit of extra information. If you're talking about a video, maybe it's just like a little funny ender, whatever it is. And that is how I tend to structure my videos. Now, the most important part for me, as a social media strategist, as a journalist, as a person, as a content creator, is the, the lead, the hook.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  It's always the most important part. I always suggest that people spend 75% of the time on that hook. May, maybe, maybe, maybe you could do like 50% of the time on the hook then, maybe 25, but 25% on the, on the nut graph. So that first 15, 10, 15 seconds, the majority of your time should be spent there. Right? The rest of it can kind of be.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Oh, this is brilliant. Okay. Because what's, when I think, when I hear other influencers, and you're more than an influencer, because you actually teach people how to do this. You do consulting as well. I want to make sure that we, we shout that out as well. Um, so many people just focus on the hook. And obviously, the hook, the lead, that's important. But then the rest of it kind of is, uh, is forgotten. Let's, let's dig into the nut graph, because first of all, it's a term I've never even heard before. So what, what, what would be the anatomy of a good nut graph after we get past the lead?

• 51:37Speaker 01

  So you got past your hook, you got people in, your nut graph will have your who, what, where, when, why, and how. So this is, if you're doing like an article, you'll say, the, the fire on 13th Street involving three kids was extinguished by the fire department at 5:00 p.m. today. If you read nothing more, you know the story.

• 51:57Speaker 00

  Oh, man.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  That should be your nut graph. If you read nothing more, you, you, you know the story. And then you disseminate, you, you, as you continue to go down, you have more information. If someone's really, maybe they're really curious about this fire. They're like, wait, is that the one next to the halal cart that I used to go to? I need to know because that's where my kid's school is. Now you're, now you're going in deeper, you're giving more information to that person who cared enough to read past that. Cause they really wanna know. Most people probably aren't reading past that nut graph. Now that nut graph, and this, when we're talking about that, that can be either you're directly after the hook. Or it can maybe be like a second paragraph down. It just needs to be, it needs to be up there at that top. Usually it's directly after your hook.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  But sometimes you get away with it being like you're the next paragraph down. But you want that to be in there, the who, what, where, when, why, and how. And if no one watched anything more or listened or read anything more, they've come away with enough. Now, when it comes to video, most people are really only watching a few seconds. So they might, that's why people stick so much to the hook, the hook, the hook. And that's why I say also to put so much, so much information into the hook. Because most people are choosing within those first five seconds that they wanna watch. They're probably not watching past like twenty, thirty seconds. And that's when you start looking at your analytics and you'll start seeing what your drop off rates are. How long are people watching? Most people are not watching to the end of the video.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  And that's also why when you read an article, those extra details are for people who are super interested in the ones who are really gonna watch till the end. But most, or read till the end, most of them aren't. That's why you wanna make sure that the crux of your information is somewhere closer toward the top.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  Makes so much sense. This is, this is really good. Cause now I'm evaluating some of the posts that I did that went well. Now I'm understanding why, and now I'm getting a better understanding of the ones that did not do well. Why did they not do well? No, that's, that's great.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  Now let's get, let's get back to the, the, the brand deals too, because I, I think this is really interesting. Um, when you think about, if you're talking to people who want to become an influencer and they see a future in that for them. What were some of the most surprising things that you ran into in this journey that you, you didn't see coming?

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Hmm. Are you referring to working with brands or just in general?

• 54:15Speaker 00

  In general, in general, let's see where you go with this, Nicole.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Some surprising things.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  I was surprised, and I don't know if this is unique to me, or if this is something that other people would experience. I was surprised how much my network was going to come through for me. My non, my non, um, content creator, non influencer network was going to come through for me. In the sense that I did not go into this being like, who can I reach out to as I, you know, do this influencer thing? Like who can help me? I did not think that I had anyone who could really help me in this arena. All I did was post my content and then suddenly people who I had worked out, worked, sorry, people who I had worked with. Years ago, five years ago, almost ten years ago, started reaching out to me and they're like, hey, I no longer work at ABC News. I now work at this place and we're actually looking for some creators to do X, Y, Z thing.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  And I've been watching you. And that was just such a reminder to me. And this happened, this is a few times that this has happened now. And that's, and I should back up. That's how I was able to get a partnership with TripAdvisor. That's how I was able to, um, get a, a, that is how I was able to get my, uh, the essay with the Today Show. The Today Show reached out to me to write an essay about what I've been doing as a content creator. Because someone else who had been following me from years ago had threw, threw my name out there and was like, hey, you should reach out to this person. Right? So one thing that was, I, it feels so obvious to say out loud, but one thing that was still surprising to me. Is that you really never know who is watching.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  And that was something that I, it's like, yeah, you never know, but then like you really never know. At one point, the US government reached out to me in twenty twenty-four in November to come to a travel creator open house. I was one of eight creators that they asked to come out to this travel creator open house to like get a tour of the state department. To, to learn about passport safety. Now I have like friends at the state department. I like, I like to brag about that. That's my little, my little flex is I got friends at the state department. And it's really like, you really never know who is watching you at any moment. I've had SZA commented on that same Italy video. SZA commented on that, on that Italy video. Uh, why, uh, not like, um, oh my goodness, why is the name Questlove?

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Questlove commented as well on that same video. Uh, I had posted a video about a Jamaica resort and, um. Why is everyone's name Keenan Ivory Wayans had liked that, that video? It's, it's very, it's just interesting, the different people who are seeing my, it just blows my mind. Like, yes, I understand like the internet is, it exists for everyone. Anyone can see it. And like, anyone can, can experience the internet, but it's just like, it just really blows my mind to see it in practice.

• 57:06Speaker 00

  It is kinda weird. It is kinda weird when you see like a blue check, like your thing or comments and you're like, wait, who? You? What, what? You're watching me?

• 57:16Speaker 01

  It's like you're, like you are watching the Keenan Ivory Wayans saw something that I made. Like that's, that blew my mind. Um, and so that's something that I was really just not prepared for. And then also, another thing, when it comes to just working with brands in general, is just the understanding that not, brands are still very new to working with influencers. A lot of brands are still very new to working with influencers. And so things aren't always as smooth as you might assume them to be. Cause you're like, oh, this is a, a big brand or whatever it is, they aren't always as smooth as you might expect. Simply because they're still learning. This is a very new space in terms of working with influencers. Maybe in the past few years, people have really started taking influencer marketing more and more seriously.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  As we see that this is the direction of marketing. And so that was one thing I was interested, it was that I found interesting to learn as I was doing this. And that brands heavily rely on your expertise as the creator. And they're very open to what do you bring? You know your audience. We wanna know what you can bring. Give us your ideas. And it's not so much here, this is what we need to do, say these lines, you know, and, and get the video done. They're really open to your ideas and because you know what best to do to work with your audience. And I think the best brands tend to be more hands off with that because of that understanding. Rather than making a bunch of tweaks, they'll be like, you know, you know, your audience, this is good.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  And those make for some of the best collaborations.

• 58:50Speaker 00

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• 59:34Speaker 00

  That's Shopify.com slash Kwame. Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to hear your first.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too. So there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. Makes sense. And it's, I think it's an important note to, to focus on and kind of expand too. Because I think a lot of times we can devalue our own expertise and cower in the face of people who seem to have more power and authority. But that's the distinction, I'll put my negotiation nerd glasses on real quick. It's the distinction between power and leverage. Both are tools of influence, but power comes from something that's more easily, um, observable.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  And more fixed, but leverage, that's strategic advantage. And a lot of times we don't acknowledge or appreciate the leverage that we bring to the table. And it might be expertise, it might be audience, whatever it happens to be that is your uniqueness. Let's bring that to the table and stand on that and be willing to, to shape these relationships too. Because a lot of times people would just say, oh, well, this is TripAdvisor, this is today.com. I'm just gonna do that, do what they say. I'm grateful for being here. Thanks for the opportunity. It's like, no, I actually, you brought, you're working with me because I have something that you don't have. I have access that you want through me. So yeah, this is a partnership and I'm going to say my piece and I'm going to shape the direction of this partnership.

• 1:01:52Speaker 00

  Because there is some value, a high degree of value that I bring, a high degree of expertise, and I feel competent enough to stand on that.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I always talk about the, your unique value add as a creator. You always have to present that to the brand. What is your unique value add? Because there are a bunch of creators out there. There are a bunch of people doing the same thing and talking about all the different topics. But what makes you stand out? And that's important for your branding, make sure your bio, um, Instagram, on LinkedIn, wherever it is. Really explains what your unique value add is. That's something that I've been making sure to shape for myself as well, making it clear to people that I am also a journalist. In addition to being a travel content creator. So that's very clear that I'm not just. Making content, I tell people it's not just about aesthetics and vibes. I'm not just making aesthetics and vibes content. I'm also trying to educate and bring some more information and be a voice within this space.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  And so that aspect of all of this is who are you? Why should we work with you? There are 10 different creators that on paper might look just like you. We don't know any more information about you. So you need to be doing your best to make sure that who you are is always is always clear. It's always presented when you're doing your pitches. Make sure that your background and your neat value add is always at the forefront, especially before you start getting brands. Because in this world, just like in the working world, it's like in the career world, you know, you have to have experience to get experience. So, yeah, so before you have all those big brands under your belt and you can say, well, I've already worked with such and such and this person and that person, you need to be able to prove yourself even more so with just who you are and the type of content

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  you create and why you should be the one, why you should be paid thousands of dollars to promote this, this brand. And so that's when it becomes even more important.

• 1:03:38Speaker 00

  Yes, and listeners, if you're saying, man, I need to listen to more of Nicole on this particular topic, Nicole was featured in Forbes. So you can get access, by the time this comes out, that article will be out. So we'll link to that too. And I think a cool place for us to land this plane is kind of coming full circle, talking about the, the big leap that you took, or as we would say, the, the big swing. All right, when you were leaving a, a great career to start something new, I want to, I want us to just take a zoom into your mind and walk us through what you were thinking, why you wanted to do it and what courage was necessary to do it.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  You want the, you want the, the truth, the real answer? Let me keep it real. I am so vehemently anti corporate America. I am so, I am so anti, I'm so over it. I, and I just kept thinking to myself, oh, it's just, let me leave this job. It's just, it's the job. Let me go to another job. Let me do a different role. Let me try a different, maybe it's market, let me go to market. And I kept thinking it was all this corporate America. And you can feel free to use this or not use it, but my genuine thoughts are corporate America was not necessarily designed for women who look like me to succeed. It was not designed for us.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  We were not in, in mind when they were deciding what office politics would be. We were not who they were thinking about when they decided what climbing the corporate ladder looks like and who can be at the top and all of those things. It is a particularly hostile circus for black women. It is an increasingly difficult place to be able to succeed. And I found myself trying to climb this ladder and I was like, climb this ladder to, to what end? I'm not good at, at, I shouldn't say I'm not good at it. I have no desire to play the game. Not in the corporate sphere. Sphere, I have no desire. A lot of what it takes to succeed in the corporate space requires you to shrink yourself,

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  to make yourself smaller, to allow yourself to put into a box, to not share your thoughts and opinions. People, I've said this before, people will hire you for your expertise, but then they don't want to hear your opinion.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  And there, it requires you to be able to kind of grin and bear it a lot. And I say, I say this, and again, use this if you want to or not, but one thing I always jokingly say to people, I was like, my problem was I don't know how to shut the fuck up.

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  My problem was I never always, I was gonna say something. If it didn't look right, if it didn't smell right, I was gonna say something. And that was my problem.

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  You're, you're too honest for corporate America. You're like, this honesty thing is killing me.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  No, okay, they don't actually want you to be honest. They don't actually want you to like say how you feel, say your thoughts and, and things like that. It's like not actually, that's not how you play the game here. It's when they say to do something, it's yes, amen. They say jump, it's how high, you don't question, you just do. And I started realizing that. And then I was like, oh, but you know, sometimes it just gets so hard because you're like, well, that's so wrong. It's not like, no, that doesn't actually make sense, but they don't need to do it. Okay. And so that made it increasingly difficult for me. I also was just tired of the circus, the, the whole performance of it all, having to be a different person.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  As soon as COVID happened and we started working from home, I started, I got my, my, both of my nose, nose, I got two nose rings. I got my nose pierced twice. I started trying to lean more into being myself. I got those, I started wearing those like circle glasses, more like quirky, quirky circle glasses more regularly. And I started feeling like, wow, like I, I, I actually, I like this, this sort of freedom. It was a little taste of freedom, being able to be myself, being able to, to come to, come to work because I'm sitting in my office in a way that did not feel like I, I had to be wearing something from Ann Taylor Loft. There was a pretty, there's a quote that sticks with me.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  And I mean, I shouldn't say necessarily a quote, but there, there was an instance that really sticks with me and there was a friend of mine, she's a very close friend of mine. And she said something to me a few years ago. I was like, just in my little Ann Taylor Loft, walking around my office. And she just looked at me, she was like, why are you dressed like that? It's very, like, very like direct. Why are you dressed like that? And I said, gotta dress for the job you want, right? That's the phrase, gotta dress for the job you want. And since she looked at me, she was like, is that the job you want? And I said, ah, shocked, fired.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  What? Is this the job I want? A job that requires me to be in Ann Taylor Loft and my little mules or my kitten heels? And is that what I want? That is what I believed I was supposed to want. I was supposed to want the corporate ladder. I was supposed to want the climb. I was supposed to want the, the corner office with the kitten heels and, and the, and the blazer and the da, da, da. What I did want was my, my, my crop tops and baggy pants and my nose ring and my, and my, my circle glasses and my long dress.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  That's what I wanted. That's the job. I wanted the job that lets me look like that. And she, she, she doesn't, to her, that was just like a flippant little, little comment. She was being smart. That's my friend. She's, you know, the, you know, that friend you had that you always nicking little smart comments to? That's, so she, to her, that was just a little funny, smart comment. She moved on. For me, it, it basically rewired the way I thought about things. And that was like some, like maybe 2018, 2019, something like that. And that just rewired the way I thought about things. And then once I no longer had to dress for that job and I could dress for the job I wanted, which was around 2020, when we started working from home, I, I just started moving more into the Nicole I actually am, the Nicole I've always wanted to be,

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  but could not because I thought that I had to act a certain way and want a certain thing because that is what is so ingrained within us and taught to us. And then when the opportunity arose at the top of last year for me to truly be the Nicole I want to be and to jump into the world that I actually want to be in, I took it. And I think I might've mentioned, I really had no plan. I did not have like a backup job. I was not saving for a long time. And I had a mortgage. I'm in a house, I have a mortgage. Since I had not been saving for this particular moment, it was, it was just do or die. And it calls back to how a lot of people will tell you, don't wait until you're ready. You have to, you have to just start before you're ready. You'll never be ready. And sometimes you just have to start before you're ready. And that's what I did.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  And I actually wrote about this for Pop Sugar, about the toxicity of corporate America for black women and how I started before I was ready. And I just took that leap. I got ready on the way. I have, I'm a woman of faith. I had a very strong faith that God would, would catch me. And I had all, didn't even realize, as people say, the, well, actually, I don't know if people say this, I was about to give people an, I don't know if people say this. Many people don't say this, but.

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Where I was, all the things that I had done in my life, all the people that I had met, all the things that I had learned was preparing me for that moment and I didn't know. All the journalistic skills, all the skills I learned about how to put together a video package, all the people that I had met along the way, every, all the ways in which I learned to present on camera, the way that I speak is because of the journalistic skills that I have, all of the ways in which I, I, I, um, I think about storytelling and what's a good story and all of that, all these things that I had learned along the way, I didn't realize was going to come so much in handy now as I just took this leap. And although, and as I mentioned, all the people that I met as well, who had come out of nowhere, I hadn't spoken to them in years and now they're like, hey, by the way, I see

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  you're doing your thing, girl, and I just want to let you know, there's this opportunity, there's that opportunity. I, in starting before I was ready, I didn't even realize how ready I actually was.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Until I just did it, because I was looking for a, a, a certain type of ready. You're never gonna have that certain type of perfect ready. I was, I was ready, I was prepared, I just didn't realize it until I had nothing to do but just take that leap and figure it out. And here I am, almost two years later, my house is still my home, I'm still paying my bills. Just got back from the Dominican Republic and I'm headed to Brazil, just did a partnership with Wyndham, and here I am.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  Amazing, this is so cool. There's so many things I, I want to highlight here, because one of the things I've heard before, and I love this saying, is that ready isn't a feeling, it's an action. You took that action and then you became ready through that action. And I, I, they, in entrepreneurship, you hear people talk about Cortez and, and burning the ships so many times, it's like sometimes you, the only way that you're gonna take that, make that move is when you burn the boats and you say, listen, there, there's no escape now, I left, I, it is sink or swim, survive or die. And the thing is, you had the skills, you were, you might not have known exactly how you're gonna make it happen, but you were confident in the fact that you could make it happen.

• 1:13:19Speaker 00

  My wife just told me last night, she sent me a meme, she said, uh, of cour-, it, it said, of course I'm confident, I've seen myself make something out of nothing my whole life, why would this be any different? And you, you brought that expertise and you delivered value. And that's, it's powerful too. And it sounds like, tell me if I'm, I'm encapsulating this correctly, it, it sounds like it wasn't so much that you had a drive to be an entrepreneur, as much as you had a drive for freedom and entrepreneurship was the path.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Yep, that's it, that's 100% it. I had a desire to be 100% authentically myself. That's, that was the goal, that is the goal. Anything, I, I, I have like, I feel like my, my body just, or my energy just repelled anything that wants me to change who I am, unless it's something that I feel like is a positive change for myself. I am currently on this, in, in, on this journey of just becoming a fully self-actualized person in a way that I don't think I had ever been able to be before. And so, everything I'm doing is just, it's a search for freedom, it's, it's, it's me

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  trying to move toward being, being authentic to who I am, authentic to myself, and, and as people say, life maxing, like I'm learning salsa now, I'm going, like I'm, I'm outside doing more and more things, I'm trying to learn a little Portuguese and in time for the Black Travel Summit in, in Brazil. And, and I'm trying to just pick up more and more new things and learn new things and just become the best version of myself that I think I can be, and I don't think that that was possible for me in corporate America. And it's, it's interesting how you mentioned, you know, when you burn the boats, you don't have a choice but to, to, to figure things out, right? I'm like, I have talked so much shit at this point about corporate America, I don't have no choice, but this has to work.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  This gotta work, at this point, there's, you Google my name and then I, you know, it's a little too late now.

• 1:15:18Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  This, this has to work, not that I have a desire to, to go back into that world, because I just, the freedom that I feel and just how very me I feel, I don't think there is something that would make me want to trade that, to go back to, you know, people telling you what to do and then people not asking for opinion, but then also not wanting to hear your opinion, then going back to the facade and the performance and all of that, it just, it does not appeal to me in any way. And so, I, I, I, I, I, and one, on one hand is like, there is no going back, but on the other hand is like, I don't, I don't want to. I want to continue. And, and this, not to say that this path is easy, it is not easy at all.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  This is a very saturated creative field and I constantly have to be reinventing myself and constantly trying to figure out new and, and, and cool ways to tell stories, I'm const-, we're constantly battling algorithms, oh my gosh, Instagram algorithm is like really difficult right now to manage, and we're constantly trying to one-up that. But I, I, I jokingly said on threads the other day, I was like, I was like, when the algorithm changes, I'm a Capricorn, all I, all I'm like is like, all right, challenge accepted, like, that's it, nothing to it but to do it, challenge accepted. And so, it's, it's not easy. And I would be lying to you if I said that there weren't days, weeks, where I am anxiety ridden, I am floating through life in the midst of an anxiety attack, completely dissociated,

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  but making videos, making content, talking to people as if I am fully here and I am not present at all. There, I would be lying to you if I, if I said I didn't have my, my moments of, of worry or stress or whatever it is, the thing that keeps me grounded is my, my faith and, and my, my belief that, that I'm, God's gonna continue to see me through this, I, I don't believe that God would bring me this far to let me fall now, and that's what continues to help me move forward in everything that I do. And then also just looking at the trajectory of my life, if you were to look at my LinkedIn or if I were to just run down my resume and everything in my life, I'm like, there's never been a point in my life where God was not seeing me through, if you were to look at everything, you'd be like, dang, girl, you, you got it, you were, you don't know

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  all the times, and I was like, my jo-, this job is ending, they had, they eliminated my role, I'm about to get laid off, I need another job, what am I gonna do? Bam, two days after the role's eliminated, starting a new job. Like, there are so many times in my life where like, that just came through and when things were looking bad, like when I first graduated from college, I was out of work, my, my, my mom who, at, you know, the time she didn't really have a lot of money, was trying to like, cover my rent, I had like, been out of work for like two months, someone reaches out to me on LinkedIn, bam, starting a new job at ABC News now, right out of college. That's so great, I, it's, every, everything in my life has always been blessed divinely

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  to lead me in, in the right direction, I just continue to trust that, that is the direction that my, if, if, if, if my past is any indication of my future, that I will continue to move in that forward progression and I will continue to succeed. But, like I said, some days it's, it's easier than others to keep this, keep the smile and, and you know, keep the faith and, and believe, but God said faith decides if a mustard seed, sometimes that's all I have to give and, and, and it, and it's working for me so far. Sorry to print on you, but you know, I, I, I gotta, I gotta keep it real.

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  This is, that's the island showing, that's, that's what that is, that island upbringing. You, because your, your family's from where? Because that's another connection we have too.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my family's from Trinidad.

• 1:18:59Speaker 00

  Yes, that's right, that's right, because um, my dad's from Dominica, mom's from Guyana. And um, it's, it's always cool when you see somebody with that, that the same background, because then for me, what I recognize is that, that some things start to make sense. I'm like, oh, oh, I see it now. Yes, it's a, it, because we have the, the work ethic, the, the confidence is like, I will, I will figure this out, right? And I think there's also the authenticity too, um, just the willingness to, to be yourself. But then also, I'd, I'd be interested in exploring this with you too, because one thing that I had to, you know, my parents love me very much, I, I appreciate the way that they raised me, et cetera, et cetera, disclaimer done.

• 1:19:40Speaker 00

  But also, it's like, work really hard, get a good education, get a job, keep it forever. And when it came to you being your authentic self and moving towards freedom and building your own thing, was there any resistance from your family or criticism that you had to work through?

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  No, I mean, honestly, no, I I'm blessed in that situation in which my mom has always been very supportive of me. Um, my sister is the only one who'll be like, as long as you're making money, like, that's not happening. Get yourself back in a job. My sister's the only person who would who would be like, now it's time to go go back to corporate if at any point she felt like it wasn't doing what she thinks it needs to be doing. But no, my mother thankfully has been super supportive of me this entire entire journey. Um, and she's very, she's, she's, she's one of my biggest like fans like of my content. She just loves sharing it. She loves telling people

• 1:20:45Speaker 01

  about about, oh, my daughter, you know, she's a travel influencer. Let me let me show you. She told us of the hairdresser. You should follow her on Instagram. And she'll tell us to like the people at her job. So she's been really supportive, uh, uh, because and I think part of it is because of she knows who I am as a person and that I'm gonna make this happen. I'm I'm going to, I will have sleepless nights. If an algorithm changes and I'm realizing my videos aren't doing well, I'm gonna be up figuring out what I can do. I'm always going to pivot. I'm going to figure something out. And if I was one of those people who, you know, they have a new career every every two months, they're trying something new every, you know, whatever, they don't stick to anything like that. She would probably have a different feeling. But as she's seen me and watched me grow

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  all my life, she knows that when I put my mind on something, I'm going to achieve that something.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, that's powerful. That is powerful. Okay. Well, what's next? What what is what's the big plan for 2026 and beyond?

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Well, so what's immediately next is the Black Travel Summit for me in Brazil, um, because I am a finalist in the Black Travel Film Festival. Yes, for social video, uh, that's about a video that I did about the origins of reggaeton and how it started as a reggae in Espanol in Panama. And then 2026, at the top of the year, I do have my first group trip to Cartagena. I'm taking 13 people with me and I, if there are people out there who'd like to sponsor some goodie bags, if you have any products or anything like that, that you would like to have promoted on my channel and would like to, um, have me, uh, share with some of my guests or all of my guests, depending

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  on how much you're willing to to share, that I'm definitely open to that. Um, and then, yeah, now all my travel, I kind of plan very last minute. So I'm like month to month, like I just, I'm going to Brazil next month, just booked my flight last last night. So I'm still TBD. Um, but my hope is to continue to grow my platform, continue to grow with the different brands that I am working with, um, and then figure out exactly where I want to take everything that I've learned and the platform that I have into the next phase. I'm I'm gonna be growing my newsletter as well, um, and taking that into the next phase.

• 1:23:12Speaker 00

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So wait, you're doing like you're taking other humans with you to Cartagena. Like, that's a thing you do now?

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm hosting the group trip.

• 1:23:23Speaker 00

  That's so cool. Okay. So, yeah, you we need to get an idea of what this this travel schedule is like. That's, that's, that's a brilliant idea. Very, very cool.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm doing hosting a group trip powered by Tour Hero, which is a company that works with different creators to host trips. So they'll facilitate everything. I was able to make sure that this trip was, as is the kind of theme of the last 10 minutes here, authentic to myself, my experience, what I enjoy doing. So I tell people, I'm not the type of creator that, and I I I I'm done feeling ashamed about this. I'm not the type of creator who enjoys like art galleries. I I'm not. I'm I don't enjoy that. I I don't enjoy walking tours. I don't enjoy art galleries. I'm not really a foodie. Like, I'm not gonna pretend. I say that all the time. I'm just like, not, I don't enjoy that. I find it so boring. I don't like, like barbecue sauce on some cardboard,

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  I would eat that. So I'm I can't even be qualified as a foodie. And I'm done feeling ashamed about that. Um, but yeah, so I was like, none of that. I don't, I don't care for any of that. I want it to be authentic to the things that when I first went to Cartagena, what I enjoyed, what I liked, and the things that I did, and it did not include art galleries and walking tours. So I made sure that they put in all the different, different activities that I did, like going to, like having an island beach day, going to to the Tumal volcano and doing a mud bath, and a few other different things. There is a dance class in there. And usually, I'm not super into dance classes, but I'm like, this is, this is fine. I am learning the salsa. So maybe something, there'll be some

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  overlap. Maybe I'll learn, I don't know, something a little click. Um, but yes, so I'm really excited about that. My group trip sold out in like two weeks. That goes to my, that's just shout out to my ability to really connect with my community and people that actually really want to hang out with me and then have this experience with me. It was really awesome to see the amount of people who just were like, I want in, I want in, I would like to part of it. So.

• 1:25:24Speaker 00

  Also, last, last, the last point too, because one of the things I do a lot and I love doing is public speaking. And you seem to have a set of skills and experiences that would be perfect for keynote speaking, trainings, things like that. Is that something you do too?

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Yes, actually. So I am really excited to continue to have more public speaking engagements. So I spoke at the Women in Travel Summit this year. I also spoke at the social media conference that's hosted by Reagan Communications and PR Daily at Walt Disney World. So I spoke at that, and I also emceed that last year. So it was great to come back and be able to speak. This year, I'll also be speaking at the Flex and Fly Summit, which is a nonprofit, and I'll be speaking about travel, entrepreneurship, and then leading a breakout session there. And I'm just looking forward to continued speaking engagements in 2026. So we'll see what else is in store.

• 1:26:20Speaker 00

  Amazing. Nicole, this this has been so much fun. Thank you for coming on the show. And before you go, let the listeners know how they can connect with you and and learn more.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Yes. All right. Well, thank you so much for having me. And you can find me on all social media platforms, or at least the big ones, um, at N C O L Philip, that's two L's, no S, again, N C O L Philip. And you can find me on YouTube, Threads, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. And I also have a Patreon as well, where I share monthly itineraries that are tailored to things that I would do. So if you also aren't interested in in walking tours and galleries and and like food tours or whatever, then my itineraries would be great for you. So I sell those on my Patreon. They're free to my top tier members, which is about $12 or so a month, or you can just purchase them as well.