The Courage Framework: Competence, Confidence, Commitment, with Kevin Basik

Dr. Kevin Basik — 24-year Air Force behavioral scientist, PhD in Organizational Behavior, and co-founder of the National Medal of Honor Leadership Institute — had a 3am panic attack while building a leadership program with a Navy SEAL-turned-astronaut. This episode breaks down his courage framework, validated by actual Medal of Honor recipients, for beating imposter syndrome, building behavioral integrity, and leading with values-driven leadership under pressure. Connect with Kevin Basik https://basikinsight.com/ https://basikinsight.com/connect/ [email protected] Connect with Kwame: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!⁠⁠ @kwamenegotiates across all social platforms

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Big swings are necessary to become what we have the potential to become.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  What does it actually take to do something that terrifies you? Not the motivational type of courage. I'm talking about the real courage. I'm talking about the 3 a.m. cold sweat, heart racing kind of courage. That is something that today's guest knows intimately.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  I got a PhD in organizational behavior and focused on what's called behavioral integrity, which is simply the perceived alignment between your espoused values, your words, your commitment, your faith, whatever you say you're about, and your actions.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Dr. Kevin Basik spent 24 years as a behavioral scientist in the Air Force. He advised the Secretary of Defense on values-driven leadership and was trusted to help build the National Medal of Honor Leadership Institute from the ground up, one of the most pressure-filled assignments of his entire life.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  When you make a commitment, you sacrifice freedoms. You have lost the right to complain about the thing you just said you're in. You make a commitment in a marriage, you've lost the right now to pursue other people.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  And you'll actually get to hear him talk about his 3 a.m. moment and what came out of that night became a framework that Medal of Honor recipients themselves would go on to validate.

• 1:13Speaker 00

  It was not healthy. I think that's a big understatement for me going through that. And it was just fear and uncertainty and self doubt and all that. And one night, and I kept usually waking up at about 3:44 in the morning. And one night I woke up and I'm like, I gotta at least figure something out here. So I came down to this office at this chair in front of this computer, blanket around me, and I just started, I pull up PowerPoint slides and I just said, all right, what is the conversation I'm having with myself?

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Dr. Kevin Basic is here to show you that courage isn't the absence of fear. It's what you build from it. When you feel like everything is caving in and you don't know how to keep going, this episode will show you what courage really looks like and how to find it when you need it most. Let's dive in. Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of Granola free at granola.ai/Quami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365 day returns, and make sure to tell them that Quami with Big Swings Only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays? Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com/Quami.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Playing it safe is easy. Playing it safe is comfortable. But here's the problem. Playing it safe and playing by rules that were never meant for you will never take you to the next level. If you've got what it takes to hit the ball out of the park, the only thing holding you back is whether you're brave enough to take a big swing. I'm Quami Christian, and this is Big Swings Only. Every week, we're telling you the stories of people who fought their fear, chased the life they actually wanted, and became who they had to become to get it. This show is built for people who are meant for more, because if you really want to get to the next level, you've got to do something big. So the question isn't whether or not you've got what it takes. The question is whether or not you're going to swing.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  You were built for more, and this show was built for you. Subscribe now.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  So you're looking at a guy, youngest of six kids, right? So one girl, five boys, and my brothers, my oldest brother started the journey, but then brothers followed and followed. My oldest brother went to the Air Force Academy. We knew nothing about the military at that time. So, you know, he went off and did this thing, and my next older brother went to the Air Force Academy, and the next older brother went to a normal people's school. But he ended up going Army ROTC. My next brother went to West Point. You know, so I'm getting dipped in a lot of the service academy, military thing. So I applied, and I didn't get in. Little embarrassing, right? So I went to a college for a year, reapplied.

• 4:14Speaker 00

  Didn't get in. Uh oh. So, uh, but they offered me prep school. So now, you know, facing a little moment where do I fall a couple of years behind my, my contemporaries, you know, growing up, um, for the opportunity to go to this, this place. Cause once you go through this prep school, you're likely you're going to get in. And, um, I, I've had sort of a crucible moment in the mirror where I'm like, hey, the, the window is only open so long. It's, you only get one more swing at this and you go in or not. So deep breath, went to prep school and then the Air Force Academy and, um, you know, all the challenges that come with a service academy.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  And then started a 24 year career in the Air Force as a behavioral scientist. So going all over and they were nice enough to invest in me and said, hey, we want you to come back and teach. So we'll send you to get your master's degree in industrial and organizational psychology. So that's basically what do we know about that funky human animal? And put them in a context and my focus was small team leadership. I just love the dynamics of why it works and why it doesn't and what gets in the way. And went out and did some other things in the Air Force. Each one, you know, another bit of a swing, swing for the fence in

• 5:38Speaker 00

  that never done anything like this before. And oh crap, this could go wrong. Right? So taught back down at the Citadel in Charleston, South Carolina as an Air Force ROTC instructor. I got pulled up to headquarters to run ROTC's leadership development nationally as the chief of training. Um, so that was intimidating, but it went well enough that they said, hey, we're going to invest in you again and now send you to get a PhD. The joke in my family is anytime I think the PhD is at all impressive, my mom will introduce me as, hey, this is my son Kevin. He's a doctor, but not the kind that helps anybody. All right. So, yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  So I got a PhD in organizational behavior and focused on what's called behavioral integrity. So it's a values-driven leadership kind of concept, behavioral integrity, which is simply the perceived alignment between your espoused values, your words, your commitment, your faith, whatever you say you're about, and your actions. And when those are in alignment, when they are in integrity, good things happen. When they are out of integrity, buckle up. And it's so easy for all of us to get off the bubble and out of integrity with who we're trying to be, or our standard of excellence, or our faith, or whatever that is.

• 7:01Speaker 00

  So I just, those were the goggles I put on. And I just, I love that moment-to-moment test of battling to be who you're trying to be. And fear shows up, and insecurities show up, and all that, all the obstacles that we have to battle through. So, so 24 years, I finished up at the Pentagon. I was asked to come up, based on my previous work, to be an advisor to the Secretary of Defense on values-driven leadership, on the professional identity of the people serving the nation. And as I transitioned out and retired, I drink this Kool-Aid, I serve this Kool-Aid, I mix this Kool-Aid.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Man, I'm going to keep exploring this. And I had enough people call me, say, hey, we kind of dig how you explore this with people. We don't care if you're in uniform or out of uniform. So we'd like to keep a partnership going. So I started my own company and was off and running. Values-driven leadership, behavioral integrity, be the leader you mean to be. And about three years ago, I was asked to help stand up the National Medal of Honor Leadership Institute. This new amazing facility, this world-class museum was being built in Arlington, Texas,

• 8:25Speaker 00

  by Dallas Cowboy Stadium to honor the Medal of Honor and all of those who have earned it. And they said, feels like we should have a leadership component to all this so that people get hear the stories, connect with the recipients, but aren't just left with, wow, they're awesome, which they are, but there's got to be a bridge built to go, so what do I do with that? And the beauty of the Medal of Honor thing is, uh, these ordinary people did something extraordinary in a moment and, and demonstrated what is possible in spite

• 9:04Speaker 00

  all of the reasons not to do it. Right? And we can basically say their stories happen to be on a battlefield in a military context, but man, there's hacks and lessons that can translate to the battlefield of your life, whether you're raising teenage kids, or you're battling through some medical stuff, or it's just, you know, personal, professional struggles. We're all in battles all our life, you know, and to, to lean into the Stoics, the goal is to just struggle well. And in there, I love the, the title of the podcast is that big swings are necessary to become what we have the potential to become. So all that to say now,

• 9:46Speaker 00

  now I, I support the Medal of Honor, but I also do my own thing and I, I go out and support corporate, military, nonprofit organizations to connect with, you know, who they are as organizations and as individuals.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Incredible. And Kevin, like I said, the first time we chatted, I will say it every time. Thank you for your service. Um, this, this is, it's so necessary. And the role that you had was critical in making sure that everybody was mentally prepared to serve. And when you think about this, because we're going to come back to, to your big swing, the, there are so many to explore.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  But I, I really want to hammer this home because the, we're in a stage when it comes to mental health, optimal mental performance, um, where we see some people who might go too far and they fancy themselves armchair therapists.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  And everything is diagnosable and problematic. And then we have other people who might see that behavior and say, you know what? All of this is a farce. You just need to get the job done. And the truth lies somewhere between those two extremes. So especially when you think about it from the aspect of military service, why is it so important to have you and people like you teaching behavioral science to the people who serve at the highest level?

• 11:11Speaker 00

  I tell you, I love that. And you know, service, first of all, I mean, we can all serve in different capacities. And leadership, there's formal leadership and man, there is informal leadership. As long as you're influencing and you can serve wherever you stand. But why is it important in the military these days? First of all, the mission matters so much. I mean, there's a lot at stake. And these are the folks that are asked to do things on behalf of the nation. And we need them to had their heads and hearts screwed on straight. So when I go in and explore this, whether it's with, you know, cadets at the military academies or ROTC or up at the Pentagon or beyond.

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Man, the human thing never stops being important. You can't get the mission done without going through the human beings. And there are certain things that just keep showing up as important. Matter of fact, Kwame, I do a session, a half day session with the Joint Special Operations. So that joint just means Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, even international allies. But the special operations folks, so these are the SEALs and the Green Berets and the, you know, the TACPs and all, tip of the spear warriors, all business, getting the stuff done. And in the Special Operations Forces community,

• 12:32Speaker 00

  they have identified what they call the SOF, Special Operations Forces, the SOF truths. And there's five of them and they all know what they are. They are the truths. They are the undeniable principles when it comes to us doing the mission. And the number one SOF truth is humans are more important than hardware.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  And they got all the hardware, man.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  You know, and some of the other soft truths are, hey, you can't mass produce us. We're a specialized unit. You can't wait until the crisis is at hand to build us because there's a pipeline. So those are undeniable truths, but the first one is humans are more important than hardware. So you better be familiar with leading and influencing and connecting with what humans are hungry for. And part of that has to do with the tribe that you're building, you know, the, the, the culture and the identity I've got associated with that.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  You know, um, it's, there's a great phrase you may have heard in sports, but it goes back to, it's, it's an African philosophy and phrase. Ubuntu, which translates to because we are, I am, my, my identity is connected with who I run with. And, and it shapes that. So as leaders, we better understand how to shape that environment. And we better understand how to connect with people and to influence them in a healthy way towards, you know, a desired outcome.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Brilliant.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  And to just, to just go, yep, I hope it works out, or I'll figure it out, or, you know, it, it, I turned out okay. So I'll just keep doing what was done to me. That's kind of a dangerous, um, if not, uh, uh, immature approach to leading and developing people.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  I agree 100%. And I'm, I'm glad we, we laid this out because I think a lot of times we can, the extremes can become very alluring sometimes. And especially, I mean, let's, let's call it like we see it as, sometimes we can become too hyper masculine to the point where we incorporate a lot of toxic elements that don't drive us toward our mission and purpose. And we're too focused on being tough for toughness sake, not for the sake of the mission or the people we serve.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  And to that point, Kwame, that, you know, the special operation forces, I mean, these could potentially be. Knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, meat eaters that just bang into things and just break things. And they are expected to do kinetic damage and things like that. But for the most part, they are expected to show restraint, to show character, to create environments and cultures of trust in their units. And when I explore this stuff with these just big buff intimidating people, it's amazing how often they will go, you know what? We just need to listen more as leaders. Or what matters to me is just when you show a little vulnerability

• 15:42Speaker 00

  and admit that you're struggling or you're not perfect. So it's all of that soft human stuff that helps keep them from just being hyper masculine and going in the toxic arena. The sweet spot, man, is stay human while you're kicking ass.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And you have to remember outside, when you get past the prickly, hard exterior, the soft stuff is inside of us too. Our brain is not very hard.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  We are squishy.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  So I was just saying, listen, there are soft elements and that's not okay. It is just a biological reality of existing on this.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, don't fight it, don't fight it.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  And so now I think this will be a great opportunity here to talk about you again, but from a more vulnerable perspective. Because Kevin, just like the intimidating, scary guys that you've worked with, people look at you and all of your accomplishments and you are quite intimidating and impressive as well. And they can't see the smile and the warmth like I can if they're on audio. And I want you to take us through different scary moments in your life. So I want you to take us to during training when you were in the air force and you had to jump out of a plane. That sounds very scary. But then I also want you to talk about what it takes to be the person who has been trusted with stewarding the creation of this institute for Medal of Honor recipients.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Because both of those were scary. And I think from the outside looking in, they might assume one is scarier than the other, but.

• 17:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, that's a great question. So all along, just like many of the listeners, you have certain decision points in your life. And as fear has shown up, hey, you're in the courage game and there's the fear ups. Fear of embarrassing yourself, fear of failure, you know, fear of not being good enough, fear of not being in the pack that you want to be associated with, you know, so, you know, early on going into the Air Force Academy, there's, there's certain moments where you are, you are the actor alone on the stage, or at least it feels that way. Man, so many people, and this, this definitely connects to a lot of executives and high performers, even when

• 17:59Speaker 00

  they weren't alone, they felt so alone, right, going through it. But, you know, when you, when you cross a line, back in the day at the Air Force Academy, you get dropped off on a bus, and then you literally had to cross a line that started your in processing, and all the big mean upperclassmen are just waiting like sharks to jump all over you. So you've got to take the deep breath and go, all right, how bad do I want this? Because I know what's coming. I got to buckle up and it's, it's about to get real. So there's, there's things you lean on in those moments to get you to take that step across literally the yellow line, or to, you know, raise your hand and admit that you're struggling, you know, when, when academics are

• 18:44Speaker 00

  getting away from you, or when, you know, you're seeing stuff around you and you're like, I'm just not comfortable with this. Man, it's, it's so easy to stay hidden and stay small. So, you know, all of us have battled things like that, but I'll tell you, one of the biggest ones for me, so, you know, the PhD thing, of course, it's the workload and all that that you struggle with, and lots of doubt that go on through that. I will tell you this, this may be one of the things, if, if people take notes, this would be one of the, the big life hacks. So I'm in my PhD program at Florida State, and I'm in like the second week, and it is, man, it's a book a day, and it is just, you're printing out, back in the day, you're printing out just piles of peer

• 19:26Speaker 00

  reviewed journal articles that you have to read and consume and understand for the next day, and, and it's easy, quickly to feel overwhelmed. So I was in the doctoral student lab where we do all the printing, and it was like two weeks into the program, and one of the upper class PhD students, he looks across and he sees me and he goes, hey, I know that look. I know that look on your face. You feel like you're in over your head, don't you? You feel like you're the one who shouldn't have gotten it right. And I'm like, how do you get out of my head, right? Psychology. Get out of my head. And he goes, let me just tell

• 20:03Speaker 00

  you something. He says, odds are statistically speaking, someone even dumber than you has pulled this off. And I'm like, yeah, wait, what? Like, I don't think that was a compliment. But, but he's right, you know, so often, and you know, you've got two kids. When you start as a parent, you start questioning, how are we doing this? And I don't know what to do with these kids. Statistically speaking, someone dumber than me, if there is such a person, someone even dumber than me, has raised a child to not to survive at least the first week. So that, that was a helpful little battle cry that got me through some of the, the challenging things in PhD. And I've, I've leaned

• 20:48Speaker 00

  on that one throughout my life. But there I was, I assume about three years ago. So I had been honored and asked and invited to help stand up this, this leadership institute associated with this museum, the National Medal of Honor Museum. And the people that I'm running with are just insanely successful and impressive. And, you know, you've got good grief, the chairman of the board is Charlotte Jones. So the executive vice president of the Dallas Cowboys, you've got, you know, the CEO of this thing is a 94, he's a 93 classmate from the, from the Naval Academy. I went to the Air Force Academy, graduated in 93, he went to Naval Academy, then became a Navy SEAL for seven

• 21:29Speaker 00

  years, then becomes an astronaut, and then International Space Station and shuttle missions and all this stuff. So if you've ever felt good about yourself, don't hang around Astro SEAL, right? So, and I'm, I'm swimming with these cats. And they've handed me what amounts to a blank sheet of paper to say, we know there should be a leadership element to this. We're not sure what that should be. Based on your background, we think you're the guy that can help us at least stand this up. So I'm trying and part of that is what's the structure? What's the language and the, the, the framework you're going to use?

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Start building content and curriculum. We don't need to wait for the building to be built for, to start executing programs. So, hey, do that stuff. So I'm off and running and everybody in my life is, oh my gosh, what an honor. It's a perfect fit for you and this is great. And dude, it felt like I'm, I'm trying to create it and it's just like, I don't, this is not good enough or it should be better or how are they doing so much better? And, and it was just imposter syndrome, self doubt. Dude, I was having, I mean, panic attacks in the middle of the night because I'm waking up just saying, why am I not doing this or why is it taking so long? Or this, this isn't worthy of what these people deserve and I will embarrass the, all the people

• 22:51Speaker 00

  who had faith in me. It was not healthy. I think that's a, a big understatement in, for me going through that. And it was just fear and uncertainty and, and self doubt and all that. And one night I, and I kept usually waking up at about 3:44 in the morning. They just bink flop sweat, just tossing and turning. And one night I woke up and I'm like, I got to at least figure something out here. So I came down to this office, sat in this chair in front of this computer, blanket around me. And I just started, I pull up PowerPoint slides and I just said, all right, what is the conversation I'm having with myself?

• 23:35Speaker 00

  Let me give voice to the debate, the screams, all that insecurity, the chatter. So I'm writing down things like, I'm not gonna, it's not going to be good enough. I'm, I'm going to lose control of my, my life and my calendar as my daughters are in as an important season of, of life and I'm going to miss out on that while I'm doing this. The voices were saying, you've, you've convinced everybody that you're this expert and you're demonstrating you're not. That's, that's the real stuff. So I start typing this down and then I said, okay,

• 24:15Speaker 00

  behind every one of these comments, all these inner critics, there's kind of a fear of that's represented in there. It's the fear of letting people down. It's the fear of not being good enough. It's the fear of failure. It's the fear of needing to ask for help. It's just, I start listing this and just being totally vulnerable and honest with myself. Just trying to diagnose what the heck is playing out here. And something interesting happened, Kwame. As I'm writing that out, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let me go back and highlight some of these because that's not accurate. You've got to do this by yourself. It's got to be perfect the first time out.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  You know, you, it's got to be different than everything else out there. Well, okay, true, but not completely true. So there were certain things that were worthy of being challenged. So I got it out there and it gave me a little bit of comfort in going, okay, Kevin, you know better than that. And, and when that voice shows up, you can now call it out and go, eh, not so fast here. Come on. You don't have to do it alone. You don't have to make it up by yourself. You've never done anything like this before. Yeah, but I kind of, I've done stuff like this before, so not so fast there. And then I leaned back on, and I know we're going to get to this, but I leaned back on three buckets that had emerged as I was exploring the topic of courage

• 25:41Speaker 00

  earlier in my, in my work. And I, I identified that what helps people do hard things in spite of fear? I've jumped out of an airplane and that was scary. That was just visceral fear, physical fear. What helped? Well, we did a lot of prep beforehand, you know, to the point where you really just, you slap thousand, two thousand, pole thousand. I mean, it was just this deep memorization that took some of those power out of the fear.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  The, I noticed that the third time I jumped out of the airplane, it was a different experience than the first time, that fear, I had a different relationship with fear because I know what's coming. Fear was a little bit smaller.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  The height was the same. We jumped from the same height, but just those few reps seemed to matter. So, one of the buckets that I knew was important was competence seems to help with fear. If I just have a step, if I've got a plan, if I, if somebody tells me, "Hey, if X, then Y," okay, that gives me a little bit of control over fear. The second thing, so I, I went into, as I'm sitting in my office, I opened up another slide, said, "All right, what can I do competence wise to get better at this? Can I, who can teach me something that can help me add structure? What's a first step that I can

• 27:10Speaker 00

  take? What are the great ones doing right now that can maybe give me a little bit of, okay, that I can do? It's a step I can take." So competence became a first bucket that I was able to challenge myself with. The second bucket has to do with confidence. There's something to be said for just believing you can do it. Maybe listening to the people who are trying to remind you, "Dude, you have done stuff like this before. Stop ignoring that." Or pointing to other people going, "Hey, if they can do it, you can do it. Dumber people like you, then you have done stuff like this." So there's something about believing, maybe even borrowing confidence. And I know, you know, you, you talk a lot about confidence

• 27:53Speaker 00

  in your work too. Just quick wins. I don't have to always hit the long ball. Can I hit some singles and get a little bit of momentum and feel like, "Okay, I got this. I've got at least this." And I know from, you know, just the Stoics, um, that it's helpful to just break the giant thing down into small steps. You go through bootcamp, you know, and basic training. It can be overwhelming. "God, I've got to go through this for six weeks." No, you don't, dude. You just got to make it to the next meal, and then the next meal, and the next meal, or the next step, whatever you got to do. The next chemo treatment. You know, if you break the big thing down into smaller steps, confidence

• 28:34Speaker 00

  can start, or yeah, confidence can show up. And then the last bucket that was pretty easy for me to reconnect with in that late night session in front of my computer was the power of commitment. It's just reminding yourself that you love this stuff, reminding yourself why it's worth it. That's the commitment question. The commitment question is just, why is this worth it? And you better have an answer to that because the grind and the suck is going to show up. But man, if you've got your why, if you know what identity you are trying to bring to life. If you, some people are like, I know what I do not want, and that's part of my commitment. I'm going to prove them wrong. Right. And that is fuel for me when it gets hard.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Even though it's scary, I'm going to keep on taking steps. So I had those three buckets and that's what, and that late night session helped me kind of face down the fears. And go, okay, I can do things competence wise to help give me a little bit of strength and structure. I can tap into and strengthen confidence with things and maybe borrowed confidence from those around me. And then I can just reconnect with the commitment as the fuel to help me take this thing on, even then the face of fear. And that was a helpful process for me that just gave me, it calmed the waters a little bit. And then working with Medal of Honor recipients, it just validated it because when you talk to a Medal of Honor recipient.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  Who did amazing things that we call courageous. In spite of all the reasons not to.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  They will answer the big question, which is, how did you do that? They will answer it with one of three things. They will say. I was just doing what I was trained to do. Competence, that's, that's the first thing you'll often hear, which is so humble on their part. Hey, I was just doing what I was trained to do. Second nature. The second thing you will hear from Medal of Honor recipients was, I just believed I could pull it off. Usually because I wasn't alone. You know, I knew they had my back, so I was willing to, no matter how bad it went, I knew they were coming to get me. So that confidence helped them at least give it a shot. And then the last thing, of course, the biggest lever, the biggest answer to the question, how did you do that?

• 30:56Speaker 00

  Is I cared so much about them. I were not, there was nothing that would have kept me from at least trying it.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  So again, the three buckets, the confidence or the courage catalysts kind of travel from battlefields in the military context to battlefields at Kevin's desk at 344 to battlefields in having to fire somebody. You know, think about that's a scary moment. I've got to hold somebody accountable and cut them loose. And have that hard conversation. Man, it's helpful if somebody says, here's what you need to say. Just try this or let's practice this, you know, and it'll feel a little bit more competent in having this conversation.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  Confidence. What, what if it goes right? You know, let's talk about that instead of what if it goes wrong?

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Let's talk about, you know, what, what things like this, you've had hard conversations in the past. This is just a different version. Let's talk about if it does initially go bad, can you recover? I think you can. And here's how, and then of course, the commitment thing is why is this the right thing to do? You know, don't, don't ignore the fact that other people are watching you tolerate that low performer. And it's affecting the culture. It's affecting trust. It's affecting your legacy as a leader. Does that bother you? Cause maybe that's enough to get you to finally have the hard conversation.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea. It's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with shop pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Quami to start your free trial.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  That's Shopify.com/Quami. Go to Shopify.com/Quami to hear your first.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or just go to quince.com.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings Only. That's the best way to support the show. Kevin, this is powerful. This is powerful. And I think for everybody listening, especially folks who struggle with imposter syndrome, you told us something that we should hold dear to our hearts. And I know it's something I personally will go back to time and time again. Whenever I'm feeling imposter syndrome, I will now say to myself, at least people are not comparing me to Astro Seal.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. At least I'm not that guy, yeah. Oh, but this is great. And you know, when I was first, when Whitney and I were having our first son, Kai, I was very, I'm a bit of a perfectionist, having to work on that, and I was nervous about it. And just like you, one of my counselors said, he's like, lesser men have done it. And that really, I latched on. I don't need to be perfect, I need to be minimally competent. That's the goal. And the thing is, if you're called to do something, people see something in you that you don't often see. That borrowed confidence is so important. And just if that's ever anything...

• 35:27Speaker 01

  That people struggle with, just call some friends and say, hey, listen, do you think I'm good at this? If so, why? And let them hype you up. And that that helps you so much. And also, we've heard so many different angles on why it's important to have such a strong tribe, why it's important to have people around you. You are the average of the people around you, et cetera, et cetera. But when you think about that element of confidence, not just being borrowed, but also knowing that you have some elite people who have your back. Oh, my goodness, because I know with certain things, there, there are things that my friends will, yes, they love me and everything. So let's, let's stipulate to that. But they will not tolerate a certain level of performance from their friend group.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  And those are the kinds of friends you need around. They're like, listen, we're not going to let Kevin slip off when it comes to something this substantial, right?

• 36:18Speaker 00

  You are, you are preaching to me, man. I love, I love that is you, you know, your, your, your vibe determines your tribe and your tribe determines your vibe. There's a little bit of back and forth there. And the, we had to define the word honor.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  Obviously, as we're standing this thing up, we got to operationally define what do we say? What do we mean when we say this word? And although it's not perfect, I'm sure, but our definition, I think travels into any corporate world where you're trying to build something in your family. Right? That's it. That the tribe and you as a leader in that are trying to shape something that matters. So here's the definition we had for honor. Honor is living the shared moral and ethical code of excellence. Okay. Living the shared moral and ethical. Of course, we had to put moral and ethical in there so that people don't

• 37:16Speaker 00

  say, oh, well, you know, the mafia had honor and okay, we're going to assume, you know, pointed in the, in the right direction. So let's strip that part out, just with that implicit assumption. Honor is living the shared code of excellence. There it needs to be a code. There needs to be a standard by which we say, we will not tolerate, to your point. We will not tolerate deviation from this. This is who we are. And if you want to be a part of this. This is it. And if we haven't codified that and clarified it, we don't know what the standard is. So it's easy to drift. So there needs to be a standard of excellence, shared. This is a community thing. That's the Navy SEAL creed.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  They say, if you want to be a part of this, if you want to wear this trident, it's different than other communities. We have a shared standard of excellence and they have a formal written creed. So it's helpful to say, this is what defines those who want to be a member. And if you dishonor this, you're out.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  But it needs to be lived. The first word is the most important. It's one thing to have the code.

• 38:29Speaker 00

  It's another thing to live the code. And that is the behavioral integrity thing is you have to live the shared code of excellence. And brother, it is a moment by moment test to prove if you're serious or not, or if you deserve to be a member of this community or not. So I love the fact that in our tribes, when it comes to us believing each other, maybe that's part of our creed.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  Well, part of our family creed that I borrowed from a friend going through cancer, is a T-shirt that said, in this family, no one fights alone. Just love that as a, as a declared commitment to each other. I don't know what you're going through, but man, you're not going through, I will, I will rush to your side. Even when it's inconvenient to me, because that's who we are. That's our code of excellence. We share. But it's in the moments when it is inconvenient, when it is a little troubling, that's the test for whether I'm going to live it or not. And you know, every time we live it, it's another, we have, we have put, put another coin in the account.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  For who we are trying to be. So I love the fact that yeah, you say that tribe can be the source that we pull our confidence from over and over again.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  100%. And let's, let's focus on this word, living it. This is crucial. But and so I'm glad that we started here, especially with the, the definition of honor. I think that's powerful because it brings it to life. And for the person who's listening, they are contemplating making a big change, taking a big risk, doing something to improve the lives of themselves or others through action. And what I recognize is that a lot of people who aspire to achieve on a high level, who want to live life on their own terms, a lot of times they want the outcome, but they don't focus enough on becoming the kind of person who is worthy of the outcome.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  And that's where it, where the living it comes from. And when I think about you, one of the things I love about you as a thought leader is that it's not just you sharing other people's research or your own research, you are living it as well. Because when we think about throughout the through line through your life, and especially with this, this most recent endeavor, we're talking about the fact that you studied courage, and then you went back to that literature and then lived courageously through what you learned.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's the blessing of first of all, exploring anything that has to do with values driven leadership is you are on the same mountain as everyone else. You know, it's, yeah, you might be a little bit of a Sherpa where you go, hey, I've got some, I got some tools that seem to help people. Let me offer you those. Let me tell you where the, the risky footprints are going to be and the handholds need to be. That's the help of the Sherpa. But the Sherpa is on the mountain with the climbers. And the mountain is just as dangerous for the Sherpa. So I'm on the same track as everybody else. And when I do my workshops, this is where I start. I'm said, here's where my heart's at. I'm just inviting you onto the journey I'm on myself. I'm an imperfect, you know, struggling human being.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  That's in a marriage. That's one context. I've been married for 31 years in a row, in a row. All right. So, and you know, and God love her. My, my wife has to deal with this knucklehead. But there are moments when I crush it as a husband and man, there are moments when I am just a knucklehead. All right. Now comes the recovery moment. What does a person, what does the person I'm trying to be do? In moments where they just screwed up, you know, as a parent. On that journey too. Now again, in the research and in thinking deeply and exploring this so much. Certain hacks and insights have bubbled up that I'm like, this helped me.

• 42:31Speaker 00

  It's helping other people, other high performers. You might want to pay attention to this because this might help you on your climb too. And I'll give you one example, Kwame, because you and I were talking about kids, kids earlier and uh, doggone it, I use this now with, you know, my wife, with my kids, with my mom. Um, and I love it when it gets used on me. Here it is. This is weird. Do not tell your kids, I'm looking at you now because I know you got the two boys. Do not tell your sons, I'm proud of you. Okay. What? Don't tell your sons, I'm proud of you. Try this instead. In the moments when you're so excited and beaming and you want to say, I'm so proud of you.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Try, you should be proud of yourself. Dude, you should be proud of yourself. Of course I'm proud of you. I'm your dad. I love you and all that, but that doesn't, that doesn't matter right now. You should be proud of yourself. Cause what just happened there? What's the, who's the source of the pride? They are the source. They carry themselves into their moments. And you know, when you give them that gift where you go, you should be proud of yourself. They go, you know, I should, I should. They don't need you in the room anymore to feel proud of themselves in moments like that.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Of course, you're going to be proud of them, but it's but pride is not necessarily a gift. We should bestow on people. It's a gift. We should allow them to give themselves. You know, and we're back to we're back to self confidence again.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  And even my mom, she's she's eighty nine years old. And my dad passed away after five years battling with dementia. And when she when he died, they had been married for sixty six years. All right. So her their their relationship was everything. It was her identity and this woman just poured herself into her man, especially on those last five years when she was everything. And it was a masterclass in commitment to his last breath, literally. And now she starts a new season and it's scary is I've got to go out as a widow. I've got to go out and meet new people and trying to be social and I'm sad and I don't know, you know what it's like.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  So as she enters this season, she had to take risks and put herself out there. And when she would say, hey, I I went to a, you know, Bible study group. I met some nice people. I went out there. Everything in me wanted to go, Mom, I'm so proud of you. Of course I am. Of course I am. But for me to go. You should be proud of yourself. You know what? It is not easy to do what you just did. A lot of people would not have even taken that step. You should be proud of the fact that you're one of the people who does. And she's like, you know what? You're right.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  And I almost kind of made the moment about me giving her my pride instead of. You know, letting her just recognize the pride in herself. So I'm connecting the dots all just back to I love the fact that.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  I'm on the same mountain as everybody else, trying to love the people in their life who need to be loved and trying to get out of their own way so often.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  This is powerful, Kevin. I'm thinking for me as a father too, there are a couple of things that come to mind. First of all, in many ways, we will end up, even after we pass, we will end up being the internal voices for our children. They're going to hear echoes of our voices from time to time.

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Script will play.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Right? And so you should be proud of yourself. That's a script that I want them to play in their minds. So they can have more of a strong internal source of validation that is more consistent and aligned with their values that can keep them focused on the path. And then-

• 46:32Speaker 00

  But to have their dad's voice is the one echoing that. There's a lot of layers of goodness to that.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  100%, 100%. And I'm thinking too, when, based on the way that you've talked about your parents in this, in this podcast thus far, it's clear that they've had a very strong impact on you. It's taught you a lot over the decades. But I'd be more interested to see, what are the lessons you've learned from both of them in the last 10 years? Because this is a new chapter with your father passing, your mother having to adopt a new identity in many ways. What has that taught you?

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Oh gosh, it, you talk about-

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers, or just go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order

• 47:59Speaker 01

  and 365 day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings only. That's the best way to support the show. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Quami to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Quami. Go to Shopify.com/Quami to hear your first...

• 49:05Speaker 00

  Stripping the ability to have excuses. My mom has a social life now that I could never keep up with. I mean, this woman is out there just crushing. And I'm like, I gotta up my game. I mean, there's some of that, you know, trying to, trying to keep up with, with that. So I've seen, gosh, there's, there's so many things. Just as a guy who's, who really studies human behavior and, and sort of layers of the human experience, you know, when I sat in the room after my, my dad literally passed, the family, it was, it was beautiful and powerful. The whole family was there, huddled around dad, hands on him and just hugging each other as he, as he passed away.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  And then everybody else had to kind of go and prepare for sort of the next family get together. And my mom and I stayed back waiting for the people to take my dad. And it was amazing how quickly she had to figure out, who am I now? I mean, within 30 seconds of everybody leaving, she goes, oh my God, I'm a widow. I mean, she'd never said those words before, you know, is that's now the asterisk next to me. And that was interesting. And it just reminded me of the importance of just our identity. Who am I? Who am I to others? Who am I to myself? Who am I in my faith? Just clarity on that.

• 50:31Speaker 00

  is important for people to navigate life. My dad was an entrepreneur, which means big swings, sometimes huge hits, sometimes big misses. And there was, he got caught up in the whole 2008 financial just collapse. And in Southwest Florida in 2008, it was a bloodbath. And he was out there and family, other families working alongside him. So a lot of people were involved in this and it was, you know, no fault to it, but everybody got caught in this. But he's, you know, in his mid 70s at this time. And there's not a lot of time, there's no time to really recover.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  And, you know, he and my mom were expecting certain golden era of life. And this looks like the whole story's just changed. So there's heartbreak there. And my dad actually said, hey, I'm worried about one of your brothers going through this because he's taken a lot of this on too. He said, I want you to come down, put eyes on your brother and just make sure he's, he's okay. So I go down, check on my brother. And then I'm with my dad that night. And he's just standing on the back porch, overlooking the back patio. There's a lake back there. And he always, he wasn't necessarily a reflective guy. So it was weird to see him sort of standing there, you know, just looking out on the horizon.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  And with all the emotions swirling in the season, I can only imagine what was going on through his head, you know, just I failed my family. I've now got my kids involved in this and I've done this to my wife and it's so embarrassing and I can only imagine what the voices were. So I walked up next to him and I said, hey dad, how are you doing in all this? You know, you've got me checking on everybody else, but how are you doing on this? And then he said something that is one of those things, Kwame, that I take with me now. And I've offered it to other people and I'm a big fan of battle cries. And he didn't know he was giving me one, but this is it. He said, Kevin, all I know how to do is keep showing up.

• 52:46Speaker 00

  You just keep showing up, just I'll bring ideas and effort and a good attitude. And I gotta think that eventually we find our way through this storm, but I'm just gonna keep showing up. And I thought, that's not a bad voice to hear in our head. When it feels like I'm swinging in the dark, I don't know what to do.

• 53:08Speaker 00

  Just keep showing up is a Larry basic battle cry. And in a season in teenage years, we had a season where one of our daughters was not acting like anything we would have expected. And it was just heartbreaking. And thanks to my brother offering a similar battle cry. He said, when we've had tough moments like this, we would, my wife and I just look at each other and we say, I don't know how we're gonna get through it, but I will tell you this. We're gonna love our way through it. We're gonna love our way through this. And you know, just certain phrases and battle cries can help reorient us to our code of excellence, right? Our shared code of excellence.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  And we're reminding ourselves, we're gonna live that in this time of uncertainty. Cause that's not a bad path to follow. I'm gonna keep showing up. I'm gonna, we're all love our way through this. I'll never parent out of emotional control. I'm willing to go there and have the tough, necessary conversations with love. Because that's who we are to each other. So there's, you know, one of the things I help companies through is what's the creed? The shared code of excellence that you want to codify? That will guide your team going forward, but man, it's important for our family too.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  So good. Thank you. Thank you for being so vulnerable with us there. And they, I love this term battle cry too, because one thing that's coming to mind, it's, it's Leonardo da Vinci's quote, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  And within each of those battle cries, there's such depth, such depth. And what's really fascinating is that under duress, in these most difficult circumstances, people are, they will latch on to these battle cries and they're not going to latch on to an unnecessarily wordy.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, right. The seven principles for, yes.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Exactly. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. It's so important.

• 55:12Speaker 00

  And it's the reason why we keep coming back to them for 2,000 years. They may be said a bunch of different ways, but control what you can control is just a battle cry, which who doesn't need to come back to that every once in a while?

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I mean, daily. And I think that's one of the things that is really fascinating about the fundamentals. You, when you see elite performers, they constantly revisit the fundamentals day after day. You see the, these great, these great athletes, they'll keep on going back to what it was that they were doing, just since they were children, because the fundamentals never go out of style. And now, one thing that's interesting is that we have an identity and an authentic version of ourselves at our core. And I think that aligns really well with integrity, because you're always going to care about your family. You are always going to care about service to the community and the country. But that's, that's who you are.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  But then, looking at your life, looking at the lives of your parents and the people who are the, these, these incredible honorees, their identity can edit, can be edited around those core fundamentals, which is really interesting. Because like your father said, he said, I've never been in a situation like this, but I do know that I will keep showing up. This, this is what I do, who I am.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  That is so, so true.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Let's talk about identity. How, how key is that to courage and the, the willingness to take a big swing?

• 56:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I love, you know, identity is what we pursue. You never achieve an identity. You always pursue an identity because it's always tested. You know, just when you feel like I am a leader, okay, well, then here's a new moment. You try this knucklehead or try this environment or try this total pivot. Try a pandemic and now tell me if you you're done cooking. Um, so an identity is something you perceive pursue. And the clearer you are on that identity, who is it you are trying to be? While you're doing what you do, the clearer you are on that, what happens is the clearer the dashboard light goes off to signal this is a moment that counts.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  You said you wanted to be that. Hey, game on. The fact that you took the time to say as a, as a leader, as a boss, a supervisor, I want to be empowering. Okay.

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Let's talk about what, what, what do you mean by that? Because the moment will probably show up when there's a lot at stake. And it's really easy to go, I'd love to hand you this, but maybe it's better off if I do it this time. It's just this time, but next time I'll be in power. Hey, you just missed an at bat. So our identity, the clearer you are, the clearer you are as a team, I'll give you an example, Chick-fil-A, I was, I was working with, with them and one of the owner operators out in California had created sort of a mini creed for his team. And he had a phrase in there that said, um, here on this team.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  And this is not Chick-fil-A's team. He's like on this corner of Franklin and 101st Street. Here, we talk to each other, not about each other.

• 58:34Speaker 00

  That's just who we are. That's at least one piece of who we are. We talk to each other and about each other. The fact that he clarified that makes the moment much easier to identify when somebody comes up to you and he's like, what's going on with Karen? Well, why are you talking to me about this? You should be talking to Karen about this, right? This is that this moment is a chance for you to live that out because right now you are out of integrity with that thing we said is our creed. So, identity is a powerful thing and the deeper it is, the more visceral it is, the more, hell yeah, that's what I want to be. The more we're willing to

• 59:16Speaker 00

  tolerate the suck, you know, the more, even if we don't have competence or we don't have confidence, that might be just the commitment alone can be enough to fuel us to just at least get into the arena. There's a lot of Olympic people who go, I want to be an Olympian. You know, Apollo Ono has just has some great insights in just the mindset to say, for me to plant that flag and go, I want to be an Olympian. I accept all of the pain that is about to come my way. And I will train a certain way that normal people won't train because they ain't Olympians and I

• 59:56Speaker 00

  am. So, a dear friend of mine, Dr. Arthur Schwartz, he said, whenever we make a commitment, we sacrifice freedoms. Okay? No matter what the commitment is. When you make a commitment, you sacrifice freedoms. You have lost the right to complain about the thing you just said you're in for. You make a commitment in a marriage, you've lost the right now to pursue other people.

• 1:00:22Speaker 00

  If you're gonna really take this thing on. So, I just love the fact that you don't, you commit to an identity and then you pursue it moment by moment in spite of all the obstacles. And again, we're back to competence, confidence, commitment seem to be the things that help people get across these testable gaps and bring that to life.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Oh, Kevin, this is so good. This is so good. Okay, before we wrap, let's bring in Simone. He's been waiting patiently. He always has a, an insightful comment or question to ask.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  Bring it on, Simone.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Given, does age have something to do about how courageous you are? I'll tell you why. Because when I started to work with Kwame, it was seven years ago. I didn't speak English at all. And I told him, yes, I can edit your episodes. And I had to work with the dictionary, trying to find the words, you know? And now, after 1,000 episodes, Kwame told me, hey, Simone, why don't you ask a question to our guests? And I said, hmm, I don't know, Kwame, I don't speak English. It's very difficult. And he told me, I don't know if you noticed, but now you speak English.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  So he lent me his confidence, right?

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  But I don't know if it was my age now, or any other aspect that I'm not aware of. What do you think about that?

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  That's a great question, Simone. And I really haven't, I haven't explored that. So I'm thinking while I'm talking here. Now, you know, age is kind of a proxy, maybe for experience and wisdom and things. So with experience comes additional reps. So as those increase, fear can go down and courage can go up. You know, fear hates reps. So, you know, you've done 1,000 podcasts now. You're not as afraid of editing podcasts because you're like, done it a million times. And I'm confident I'm not going to screw it up, or I can recover from any mistake I made. And now he puts you on a new path. And you're like, whoa, we're back at the beginning and I've not done anything like this.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  You know, talk to me in two months and I bet after you've asked 100 questions to podcast members, you go, I'm asking better questions than anybody else is, right? You will be, you'll be a pro. Now, do, you know, as we get older, of course, we get more comfortable. We get into habits. We get into ruts and routines where we feel, I'm confident and comfortable here. So anything that shifts us out of that routine rut is going to really shock things. So I think with age, again, it's maybe a little bit more of a proxy of comfort in what we're used to doing. So we've had more practice making those ruts a little bit deeper.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  But I still think we're back to competence, confidence, commitment is I bet there are other people who have had a language barrier who have become great sidekicks in podcasts. Go to them and watch them. You can pick up tips and techniques. You got tools, you know, there's borrowed competence too. AI can be a great tool to help cover down on some of this and it burden does not fall to you. You know, you can take hats off and hand them to others, including actual tools. Confidence, like he said, you're better than you're giving yourself credit for. Let me remind you, let me take you by the ear and show you all the brilliant things you're already doing that are equivalent to what that is.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  And then commitment, do you want to grow into the bigger version of yourself? Is there is, there is untapped potential in Simone that Kwame, you just happen to be blessed with a friend, colleague, mentor who is going to want to unleash that. And I will, you mentioned Michelangelo earlier. I heard a great quote from him. You know, he had his sculpting phase, he had his art, his painting phase. Well, in the sculpting phase, he was asked, master, how do you create the masterpiece of the sculpture? And he famously said, I don't.

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  The masterpiece already exists. I just see the angel in the stone and then I carve until I set it free. And brother, there's an angel in your stone. And Kwame is just going, I'm gonna chip away a little bit. Might get a little comfortable, but before you know it, you're gonna be like, hey, I'm a pretty good podcast co-host here, which you already are.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, man. This is so weird. The, I heard this great quote, they said, the universe whispers before it yells. And what's really funny is that just last night in my journal, I was journaling about Michelangelo and how he made that quote about the statue of David, how it took so long. And I didn't realize how big it is. It's 17 feet tall. It's huge.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  It's amazing.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Yes. And so what I was thinking is how can I draw this metaphor? Is it too absurd and maybe too?

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Philosophically unnecessary to to draw a connection between the swings that Michelangelo was taking with his hammer and chisel and the swings that we take. Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  And it works through your device's audio too. So there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, granola is a no brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai/Quami. That's granola.ai/Quami to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai/Quami. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made. And my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  And their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or just go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Quami with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show.

• 1:07:54Speaker 00

  Our lives. Dude, we could that we could spend the next hour talking about how brilliant an analogy that is because it was an imperfect piece of stone. It was a piece of stone. Others said can't do it with that. And he's like, I, I got an idea there. It's in there. You just don't know it. And he took an imperfect piece of stone and made not a, he didn't just make a stinking statue. He made a masterpiece for all time. And part of the reason it's a masterpiece is because it was an imperfect stone, right? And I, have you seen it in person?

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  No, haven't.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  Okay, so I, I saw, I saw it about seven, seven years ago, and we're actually going to Europe next week with the family. And I, when I stood in front of the David, I said, I will not die happy if my children do not get to see this. I want to, I want to have them stand in front of this thing. But the first time I went, people like, we're gonna see the, one of the, one of the great pieces of art. We're gonna see one of the masterpieces of all time. And I'm like, you don't tell me what a masterpiece is, right? It's art. I will tell you if it's a masterpiece. And you stand in front of it, and you're like, yeah, it's a frigging masterpiece. Dude, he didn't mail it in on anything. I walked around the backside because I'm like, okay, the front is, that's the, that's the headline.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  And it's amazing. And it's intentionally disproportionate because he knew you'd be seventeen feet down below. So the head's bigger than it's supposed to be, but it makes it work. And his eyes are, the gaze of his eyes is different than every other David because you could see the contemplation. And the way that his pinky is extended, there's a certain tendon that's only visible when the pinky is at that position. And he got that right. Then I walked around the backside and I'm like, if ever a guy has earned the right to just go, you know, you know what the back of a leg looks like. It'll be fine. Every vein and tendon is there. He didn't mail it in on anything. And he took an imperfect stone and made a perfect thing out of it.

• 1:10:01Speaker 00

  So I love that your journal teased that out of you last night.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  This is great. Okay, everybody, just wait for an excessively nerdy breakdown.

• 1:10:13Speaker 00

  The next guest will be Michelangelo, ladies and gentlemen.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Oh man, Kevin, this was so, so good. Listen, brother, I appreciate you. Before you go, you have to let the listeners know how they can get in touch and also give them a shout out to the, the resource that we're going to link to in the description as well.

• 1:10:33Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay. So yeah, first the, the resource, obviously in the human arena, especially in behavioral science, we know that, that trust is won in drips and lost in buckets. So trust is so important to any relationship in any organization.

• 1:10:51Speaker 00

  Some, and, and trust is a volley, right? It's like hitting to forehands. The ball picks up pace as things go well, but sometimes the ball is just sitting on the court and somebody's got to put the ball in play. Well, I've created just a simple one-page document of the types of things that people, leaders, spouses, friends, parents, when people say things like this, there's a gesture of vulnerability, there's a thread of vulnerability in all of these phrases. And when you say something like this, it starts the volley. And there's something in psychology called the norm of reciprocity is when you say, hey, I'm struggling with something. I can really

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  use your help. Obviously that's a, a little bit of vulnerability in making that gesture. The norm of reciprocity says, we as human beings just have a tendency of moving a little closer to the other person who made that gesture. When a leader says, I was wrong, when somebody says, I'm sorry, it, it's, the ball is now placed in your, in your court and there's a little thread of vulnerability. So we, since trust is so important to building relationships on our human journey, the, the tool you will see is what's called the vulnerability or the trust serves. How do you put the ball in play and what kind of language can you use to maybe start tough conversations? It's a competence building.

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  Tool that is going to be hung on the podcast website. So that's out there. There's some other resources and other videos on my website. And if you want to get ahold of me, that's, that's the ask is come check out the website. You'll get a flavor for how I explore leadership, values-driven leadership, behavioral integrity, and my contact info is on the website. So come check that out. And I work with military and corporate and nonprofit and athletes at all levels to pass the testable moments of life and be the leader you mean to be.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  Amazing. Everybody, we will have links to everything in the description. Kevin, thank you, brother. Really appreciate it.

• 1:12:57Speaker 00

  It is an honor to be running with you guys. I love, love, love your podcast. I loved your TED Talk. I love it all, man. And, uh, you know, you're, you're up to something big. So thanks. You know, big, big swings are happening and, uh, I appreciate you being out there doing it.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Amazing. Thanks, Kevin. This is great. Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Aaron's Mele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work. With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  guests ranging from the US Surgeon General to NFL and NBA stars. It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show, too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.