Train Your Mind Like a Leader: Influence, Persuade, and Stay Calm Under Pressure

What if the secret to influencing people, uncovering the truth, and becoming a better leader isn't authority — it's emotional intelligence? In this powerful conversation, Dr. Sabine Charles shares how her career as a fraud investigator and internal auditor taught her an unexpected lesson: people reveal their deepest truths when they feel understood. From interviewing fraud suspects who "spilled the beans" within minutes to helping professionals overcome performance anxiety and pass high-stakes certification exams, Sabine reveals the mindset and emotional intelligence strategies that transformed her approach to leadership. Together, we explore her MEQ (Mindset, Emotional Intelligence, and Leadership Qualities) framework, the surprising connection between hypnotherapy and peak performance, how to adapt communication across cultures, and why understanding people is far more important than being right. Sabine also shares deeply personal stories about resilience, self-awareness, and staying grounded in your values during life's most challenging moments. Whether you're leading a team, navigating difficult conversations, managing workplace relationships, or simply trying to communicate more effectively, this episode offers practical tools for building trust, influencing change, and elevating your leadership from the inside out. In this episode, you'll learn: • How emotional intelligence helps people open up and trust you • Why persuasion starts with understanding, not convincing • Techniques for managing performance anxiety in high-stakes situations • How to give and receive feedback across cultures • The role of self-awareness, reflection, and mindset in effective leadership • Why leadership begins long before you have a title Connect with Dr. Sabine Charles LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sabine-charles/ Website: https://www.drsabinecharles.com/ Book: Leadership MeQ — available in English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese Contact ANI⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Request A Customized Workshop For Your Company⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow Kwame Christian on LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠negotiateanything.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to buy your copy of Finding Confidence in Conflict: How to Negotiate Anything and Live Your Best Life!

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There's a lesson that today's guest learned at just five years old from her Haitian grandmother with nothing but a jump rope and a moment of choice.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  And that was the first time I realized you should not let people take your voice away from you, your identity, or your jump rope, because it's yours.

• 0:22Speaker 00

  And that lesson, it became the foundation for everything that she teaches today. Dr. Sabine Charles is a fraud investigator turned internal auditor turned executive coach. She's a hypnotherapist, a TEDx speaker, and the creator of the MeQ Leadership Framework. Her work sits at the intersection of emotional intelligence, persuasion, and self-mastery, and she has spent decades helping people to do one thing: get out of their own way. In this conversation, Sabine gets honest about what it actually takes to change someone's mind, whether you're in a boardroom, a tough conversation, or a relationship. She explains why understanding yourself first is the only real starting point.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  But to be removed from ourselves and look at ourselves as an external person or an external being, you start looking at yourself holistically. That's the first step.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  She breaks down why performance anxiety disappears the moment you stop making it all about yourself.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  You have to remember, it's not all about you. It's a service. If you go in thinking you're providing a service to the person in front of you, then your nervousness disappears.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  And she challenges the idea that being authentic gives you a pass to stay exactly as you are. This conversation is equal parts practical and deeply personal. Sabine doesn't just teach this stuff. She lives it, she tests it, and she shows up to prove it every single day. If you're ready to stop reacting and start leading from the inside out, this one's for you. If you listen to this show, you're probably one of two people. You're someone who's trying to improve their communication skills and learn how to resolve conflict, or you're a dealmaker who's trying to learn how to get an edge in their next negotiation so you could either make more or save more. The American Negotiation Institute is built for both.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  We have keynotes for conferences, workshops for teams, and courses for everyone, because the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So here, let me challenge you. Um, because let's assume that a lot of folks don't know what it is that you do, don't know what being an auditor means and things like that. Maybe we could ground them in a story, like a juicy one. One of the stories that you would tell at night over drinks.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Internal audit, it's not necessarily about creativity. It's an ability to analyze information, come up with recommendations so that business leaders make decisions. So basically, we're convincing people. We're convincing people to change their minds. That's what an auditor does. Because you have an individual who's already working and doing that nine to five or the number of hours he or she is doing it. And you're coming in as an expert of process, risk, controls. Now, you have to, your job is to convince the person to change their minds, to do something different.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  And a lot of times auditors don't necessarily focus on the human element. They focus on the technical piece of the process. Process, people and technology. We, this is what we always talk about, process, people and technology. And we tend to focus on the process and the technology and the people, oh, they'll just fall, follow suit.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  And that's why it's a little, it's interesting because at many times in my career, I used to be a fraud investigator, not only an internal auditor, but also a fraud investigator. And we have to interview people. And they spend hours talking to the individual, trying to figure out what they've done. I just walk in and all of a sudden they spill everything. And they come back, my colleagues used to say, what did you do? How did you have this person feel so comfortable to tell you everything?

• 4:31Speaker 01

  They call my office 42nd Street, not because of other certain things, but because people come in the office and they just spill the beans. And I started thinking to myself, what is that? Because often my bosses, my colleagues ask me, how do people feel so comfortable telling you things that they've done wrong?

• 4:54Speaker 01

  And that was the beginning of the journey of Leadership Me Q. Mindset, emotional intelligence, and leadership qualities. There were many avenues that led to this framework. But if you talk about internal audit, my career, that's where it kind of moved me into that space. We could talk about the hypnotherapy as well, which is a very interesting story. But those components is what led me to where I am today.

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Incredible. This is great. That was better than a story. So let's talk about how you got people to spill the beans. Because we can't just tease the audience with that. Because when it comes to fraud investigations, I know there are a lot of different things that run through people's minds. But if you could give us an idea of what type of fraud you were investigating, and then what you did actually in the moment to get people to admit to things that perhaps they would have been in their best interest not to share with you.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  It's at the emotional intelligence level. You have to first understand the person who is in front of you. And based on that, then you could communicate on their level. That's the technique. So the first couple of seconds, I assess. Like my friend up here, we were talking in French and Spanish a few minutes ago. He'll always remember me. So there's the connection that you make. And it's not manipulative. It's actually genuine, because I was genuinely interested in what he was saying. And so going in, not necessarily on the defense,

• 6:35Speaker 01

  going back to the auditor, or trying to be right all the time. We go in and to understand what is the other person's point of view, and where do they sit, and then meet them where they are.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  And that's the E in M E Q. We also had a survey that we provide our clients. So that they could measure their emotional intelligence level. And then based on that, we work on certain key things that you're interested in. And we have three, we have, you have a session with three, uh, you have a three sessions with a coach. And they work towards elevating your EQ. Because that is something you can learn. You learn it. I learned it very early in my career at five. With my grandmother from, she's from Haiti. And I learned it very, very early. And I talk about this in my TEDx um, talk.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Where it was about when I was a kid at five. My grandmother, she watched us because my parents were working, living the American dream, working three jobs, you know?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  And she was the caregiver. She didn't speak English. She spoke Haitian Creole and I had friends and I had a jump rope. And I was like, I always walked around with this jump rope. And she noticed when we were outside, I wasn't really interested in hanging out with grandma. I wanted to hang out with the girls. Who are in the complex. I went there, she kind of said, okay, go play with them. I went and played with the young girls. Then seconds later, I came back crying. Because the girls stole my jump rope. They stole my jump rope.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  And my grandmother looked at me. And, and while my brother was there translating. And she looked at me, she goes, you better go get your rope or else you're gonna really find out what crying is about. And that just snapped something in me. Which caused me to realize, oh, I better get my jump rope because I'm afraid of grandmama. So I went, grabbed my jump rope. The kids were like, whoa, they've never seen me so determined in my life. And I came back and I held a jump rope like a trophy to my grandma. And she just kind of just moved her head like, hmm. And that was it. And that was the first time I realized. You should not let people.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Take your voice away from you, your identity or your jump rope. Because it's yours. That was my first lesson. Again, going back to Leadership MEQ. I had multiple things in my life that had, that has, that have caused me to be and understand and share this framework with the world. Because it wasn't something was created in a lab. It was not only because I did my dissertation on this. I also lived it.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  And that combination of really understanding the process and research. Then also under having live experiences. That combination is what makes it so user, user friendly. And relatable. Because first you have to figure out who you are. Then understand who, with whom you're dealing. And then the other things, the qualities or techniques that are all learnable.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Right. Oh, this is good. Because especially when you, and I'm sure you've probably had this experience. Where you interact with somebody like we, the fraud example is one, but just in general, your ability to communicate with so many different types of people, different types of background. And people might look at you and it might seem like a magic trick. There's a, a specific je ne sais quoi that you have. But that's your accumulated experience. But then also the, the level of intentional learning that you've done and everything boils into what you are today. So it sounds like there's a lot that is based in your personal history and experience and explicit study. And so when you're teaching people, when you're coaching people, helping them to connect,

• 10:55Speaker 00

  helping them to persuade, helping them to manage folks' emotions. How do you make sure that they develop their skills while at the same time staying rooted in their authentic identity so they don't lose their personal je ne sais quoi?

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Did you look at my framework? I have a photo.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  This is great. Around this framework I have, which is MEQ, there, there's a circle. And in that circle, it says innovation, self-reflection and core values.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Those are the three things that makes me and you and everyone else unique. Our innovate, being innovative, self-reflective, and our core values.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Now, I like to say, we need to always be an external observer of ourselves for inner growth. We tend to look inward, like we're, we're, we're self-absorbed. But to be removed from ourselves and look at ourselves as an external person or an external being, that's where meditation comes in, right? So you start looking at yourself holistically, that's the first step. What am I doing to prevent me from getting what I want? Do I really want this?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Am I wanting this because everyone tells me that I should get it?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Is it my ego that's being fed? So the internal observer of yourself is, it's for you to really.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  I actually helped before doing EQ, Leadership EQ, I used to train people to pass certification exams through Tapa Institute. And many times, people want to get certified because they want to get promoted in their job. Mostly the CPA, Certified Public Accountant, or CIA, which is Certified Internal Auditors, those type of exams, Certified Fraud Examiner, those exams. And I always ask them, ask my clients first five minutes of the conversation, why do you want this? Why? You're gonna spend hours of your life crying, and they usually break down crying too,

• 13:22Speaker 01

  during this session. Just really, why do you want this? Because they failed so many times, they come to me after failing a few times. Because I analyze how they process information, and then I teach them on their level. So to the point where I have a comic book and I have a movie about teaching the CPA audit part of the exam.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Which is gonna come out this year.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  And it's gonna be on YouTube. Uh, every, uh, we're gonna actually put it out every Wednesday at a certain time. So people could kind of see, not only I'm helping the people who are my focus group, but I believe that everyone can learn from each other. This is why I'm putting it out there. You don't have to be an auditor to appreciate and understand what I'm talking about. So the first thing I do is understand the person in front of me. That's number one.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Because everyone comes in with the unique

• 14:28Speaker 01

  core values, innovation and self-reflection. Before I could apply that framework, I need to understand what and who you are.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  This is so good because when you think about different frameworks that people would apply. So we have your, your coaching methodology. We have different conflict resolution frameworks, like for me, it's compassionate curiosity. Um, in order to make that work, you have to be able to aim. You have to be able to understand the person because even though the core framework will be the same, the application and the way that you communicate it to the other person will be different based on the input that you get. And when you think about persuasion, a lot of times, especially when you're dealing with data, we often make the mistake of trying to persuade too soon. Where we're in a situation where we say, okay, I've done all the research. I've got the right answer and now I'm going to provide the right answer.

• 15:24Speaker 00

  And now you will have the right answer and then you're going to be on the same page just like me. And then we are shocked when that doesn't work. And so the, the necessity of taking the time to understand the other side deeply is, is crucial in any framework, anything that you're trying to do. Now, the thing is, I think most people, when they listen to that, they'll say, okay, yeah, I can under. I, I, I understand the value of understanding. But this might sound a little bit meta. But what is it that people don't understand about what it is that you mean when you say you need to understand other people?

• 16:02Speaker 01

  When you were talking, it made me realize some of the things that we often do as auditors, as risk managers, right? We have, we spend hours researching things and we come up with the right answer.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me and as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call, just your normal meeting, but with superpowers.

• 17:04Speaker 00

  If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai/Quami. That's granola.ai/Quami to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai/Quami. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or just go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Quami with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Quote the right answer. Now, what I think is missing, and again, it goes back to my research, is that the world has changed. The leadership books that we've read were environments, were in or set in environments where people came to the office. It's set in environments where we looked in each other's eyes and we could read someone's emotions or body language. So when I say understanding, now we don't have those cues. We don't have, or they're a little bit different.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  We cannot use our senses to know if I'm leaning back, that I'm not, I'm kind of just off put. I just don't feel like I'm, I want to hear you. But I may be leaning back in my chair in the Zoom meeting because I just want to be relaxed. So the cues may be a little bit different.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  That's the learning. So adjusting and being flexible enough, that growth, people like to throw a growth mindset, yeah. But being aware. It's actually being aware and saying, that curiosity, to use your words. Am I clear? Am I getting the, reading the room correctly? And the room now is a Zoom room or whatever platform people are using.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Now, how do you develop relationships when you have work environments, that's your bedroom?

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Right? Or your living room? And someone else is across in different countries and culture, cultural differences. The way I do it, when I work, is by having one-on-one conversations with them, 15 minutes. So when I am in my auditor's role, because I run, I'm the chief audit executive. I am a chief audit executive for an entity. What I do is I have meetings with the leaders just to say hello. And they have outdoor activities, meaning they have parties to celebrate things. Attend.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  That's your opportunity. You gotta attend. For our mitzvahs. I'm not Jewish. Go.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  You know, Eid. Go. If they invite, then go. Because that's that human interaction, that's that friendship. When something happens and when you need to be in front of them and convince them about a process, then it becomes easier for them to accept your recommendations.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  A couple of things that I want to dig into here, Sabine, because this, this has been a masterclass. Because you're asking yourself during these conversations, am I being clear? And the only way for us to know if we're being clear is if we can understand the other side. And here's what I mean. Because we might be able to communicate in a way where somebody that knows us or somebody else might consider it clear. We ourselves might consider that we are being clear. But the only person who could determine the clarity of our message is the recipient of the message. And the thing is, especially when you are in a technical field, talking to somebody who is not technical, we have the issue of ego, but not in the way that is, is, is obvious.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Because if you're speaking in a technical type of way, in a way that is clear to you, you might stop and pause and say, hey, am I making sense to the other person? Now, the answer, truthfully, might be no. But they might say yes, because they don't want to look stupid. Right? And so you have to go beyond the words of what the person is actually saying to be able to read the body language and see if there is a, a bit of a lack of understanding. And that won't always be obvious unless you're taking the time to pay attention. And the other thing, too, we talked about, you talked about the importance of just showing up, having small one-on-ones. We're not talking about 90-minute meetings, just quick touch bases. This serves multiple purposes.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  Because number one, we are investing in the relationship bank account. We're creating these natural, organic opportunities.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  For positive interactions that builds trust, that builds warmth, that builds closeness. And now we have the other strategic angle of it too, because you're downloading data. What does this person look like at rest? What does it look like when they're feeling confident, when they're feeling secure, when they understand what I'm saying? And then when we have a conversation of consequence, we can pay attention to those deviations from the baseline. Okay, that that body language I saw, that's not typical for them. Let they said they got it, let me just circle back and approach it from a different way to make sure. You know, and so this is the the the expert nuance that you're bringing here because it's not just about the the persuasion and the data and everything, it's about understanding the person

• 23:40Speaker 00

  on a much deeper level and we can see how that amplifies our persuasion and communication too.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  And as we want people to do something different, and I'm going to go back to the profession that I love, and I want you to love internal auditors too.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  He smiles. All right, so I'm going to use your example. You said that, okay, the person you explained something, something technical, and the person in front of you is saying, yeah, I get it. But deep in their heart, they're like, what are they saying?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  I like to follow up with a question. I like to say, well, now that you and I are on the same page, how do you, how do you think, what's your suggestion on getting the team to digest this recommendation? That's usually my follow up question. Because that opens up an opportunity for the person to start asking, oh, yeah, well, we should do this and that. And I'm like, oh, but maybe because then I start listening and I could hear if he or she really understands the recommendation or the change I want them to implement in their area.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  So the follow up questions are critical because people are like, yeah, yeah, I understand. Half of the time, people, especially on your online, people are checking their their emails or their phone is ringing.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Who knows what's happening behind the scenes of that that screen on their Zoom call? There may be chaos.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  So knowing that, I like to always follow up with a question. So how do we think we could have John implement this process? Because especially that most of the time I'm speaking to the senior leaders in the organization, and they're not the ones who are implementing the process. So of conveying it and so having that conversation. So that way I really get that by myself. Oh, maybe I should bring in John. Perfect.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  So that's how.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  This is good. This is great. And when I think about your background, again, it is so rich because we have the educational background. We have the cultural background. We have fraud. We have internal auditing and everything. But then we have hypnotherapy. So tell us about that. Because, you know, I think when people think about hypnotherapy, they they think about the stage, hypnosis, that type of thing. So let's bring this back down to what it is that you actually do and the benefit it could have for folks.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Well, let me tell you first, I love my birthdays. Every year, my birthday is like a holiday. Okay, so every year I do something different. I I say, why haven't I? What country I have not visited? What new thing I could try? I looked online and I saw hypnotherapy.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  I was like, okay, I'll try it. And it says that you could use hypnotherapy to lose weight. I was like, hey, that's a win win. I try something new and I could lose weight. Perfect. So I went to a hypnotherapy session and I started talking and they shared with me what is hypnotherapy. And it's basically you're talking to your subconscious mind. Your subconscious mind is where you really sit. The conscious mind is things that you've been programmed programmed or been traumatized. And your defense mechanism is where that lies.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  And hypnotherapy is when the therapist speaks to your subconscious mind directly. By putting you into a trance. And they work with what should be said. It's not, I come up with the phrases. So I get the, so she got me relaxed. And helped me understand the connection of what I was with food. Or food was my thing, right? So that's why I went there, to understand and help me figure out calmly. And talk to my sabine, the true sabine, the subconscious level. For me to not use food as a crutch.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  That is what, so now, fast forwarding to how I use it in my work.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  I was like, this is fascinating. I was losing weight. I was feeling good. And I was like, all of this, no drugs?

• 28:41Speaker 01

  It's all your mind.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  And I was trying to pass the certification exam. And I said, maybe I could use it to help me pass this exam because I was getting anxiety over this exam.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Guess what? It worked.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  And I said, I'm gonna learn how to do this. I learned from my hypnotherapist. I went through the course. I took the exams. I practiced how to do it. And now I implement it into helping people self hypnotize. And for exam anxiety. That's what I do. And so I use that technique. And this is why I have such a high pass rate in my, my, one of my businesses, which is Tapa Institute. Where the CPA exam across the nation is around forty eight percent pass rate. My clients, eighty five percent. Because we don't only help you with the material and I teach you on your level,

• 29:46Speaker 01

  but also I teach you to have to understand the answer is in within you. The answer is within you. And we just have to tap it. Tap it. So I use my hypnotherapy knowledge in not only in helping people pass certification exams, but training them to become more empowered, have their voice better heard. And also my fellow auditors to communicate and help change minds to implement processes in organizations.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Incredible. And first of all, congratulations, kudos, because that pass rate is astronomical. That's really important. And it also shows the discrepancy between what you know and then what you could do in the moment. Because performance anxiety holds you back from being the best version of yourself when it matters most. And you can study, study, study and learn everything you need. And it still might not be good enough if you can't perform in the moment. Same is true with tough conversations too. Where you're in a situation where you, after the fact, isn't it interesting how after the conversation, we can remember what it is that we should have been saying after the conversation. But in the middle of it, where our mind goes blank.

• 31:06Speaker 00

  And so when it comes to addressing performance anxiety in conversations, what advice do you have for our audience who might need to convey very technical messages in a persuasive way, in a high stakes environment? Like internal auditors, because you're helping folks make very, very high level decisions with data. So how do we make sure that our performance anxiety doesn't get in the way of having the conversation effectively?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Remembering it's not all about you.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather, and their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or just go to quince.com.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings Only. That's the best way to support the show. Try this: Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense, or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me, and as a negotiator, that's a real problem, because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI-powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes, and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still make sense a week later.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai/kwame. That's granola.ai/kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai/kwame.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  You have to remember it's not all about you.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  My, it's a service. If you go in thinking you're providing a service to the person in front of you, then you, your nervousness disappears. If you're defending your inadequacies, or I don't know if I'm saying the words correctly. English is not my first language. I don't know if I'm sounding stupid. They have, you know, or whatever. You're, you're, you're shutting down your flow, your energy. And so if you think about, all right, what is the message? What I do, I actually posted about this on my LinkedIn

• 34:21Speaker 01

  recently because I do, every day I, I do posts on techniques on how to deal with life.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  And one of my, one of my things I posted is when you're, when you go into a meeting, you shouldn't try, it's great. Get your documents ready. Get your documents ready. However, you need to audit your mindset.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  And you have to start thinking, what is the mission of the person who's going to be at this meeting? What is their mindset of that person? What is my mindset? And do I hate this person? And if I'm going to go for the jugular? You gotta talk yourself out. I am, I am, I talk myself out of a lot of things in my life. You know, this, this is another recent post. Listen to this, and this is personal, I'm gonna get, I put it out there anyway. My daughter didn't invite me to her own graduation.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  And I paid for her education. Though I give her kudos, she finished in two and a half years. Beautiful.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Guess what?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  How would you feel?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  You kind of, okay, okay, the breathing.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  I felt the same way. So to answer your question, I had to check myself.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  So guess what? I went anyway.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  I got my own ticket. I went anyway.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Because what I realized is that I had to live in my character.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Celebrate a day of accomplishment.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Her behavior has nothing to do with me.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Tough lesson.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  I am the patient and the doc and the teacher. In that same situation. And so I went, I celebrated, though it was mixed emotions. So when you have these situations, when you're in the moment, yeah, you're gonna have feelings, acknowledge them, take a deep breath, and really figure out what is my core value.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  So I went, we celebrated. She's done.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  That's the answer to your question.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Oh, first of all, thank you for sharing. That that that can't be easy. But it it gave you an opportunity to, like you said, live your values. Because if I take this all the way back, when we think about the core values, innovation, everything, and that we've been talking about. And then also the reality that you have to focus on the needs of other people. And sometimes when we look at ourselves and we become that internal observer, we recognize that some of the things that we want to say or do would be counterproductive. And that that's something interesting to explore too, Sabine, because we we hear so many people talk about authenticity, right? Be yourself. And some people say, take it as.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  A license to just do whatever they want.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Or say whatever they want.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  Say whatever. It's like, well, I'm just being me. It's like you are verbally abusive. Maybe you should change it, right? You know, maybe you should pull it back. So how, how in these moments, how do you check yourself? Because it's easy for us to just say, check yourself. But the actual internal work that's required to do that in the moment is extremely difficult because it can feel like you are not just checking yourself. You can feel like you're sacrificing yourself in the moment. So how do you put your ego aside and focus on the other person when you are feeling so strongly?

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Training is like going to the gym.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Are you going to lift that hundred pound weight the first day? Maybe you could hurt yourself.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Or you start out small.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Every conversation is an opportunity to train.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  I train myself every morning. I meditate twice a day.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  I sit here and I check myself. It's not easy.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Not easy.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Not to talk about politics in life.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  It's not easy. So as we live in an environment that is constantly changing, not only through social issues, but also with AI, this job insecurity, forget about food insecurity, job insecurity.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  We have to, again, in that wheel of mine, I talk about continuous learning. I talk about character. I talk about self-care.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Mental, physical, social. That's that wheel. That's that leadership me cue. And it's not just working on one thing. Guess what? We are not one dimensional. So we have to work on, you come through in everything you do.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  So if you eat poorly, you must be doing something else in that same kind of mindset. And that's where the hypnotherapy comes in.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Because the pathway of behavior is basically been etched in your mind from very young or from whatever trauma or traumatic, I call it trauma because life is traumatic. That's my interpretation. Take it for what it is. Those moments that developed you. Now, understanding that not every situation requires the same reaction.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  And so when you know your triggers, and my daughter knows my triggers,

• 40:50Speaker 01

  I have to take a step back. It's called mental gymnastics in the sense you're really working that muscle for you to, and I'm from, I'm from the West Indies. That's like not even heard of. So

• 41:07Speaker 01

  I, I was just like, this is a, this is, but after I, after I calmed myself down, then I started laughing. I was like, this girl has a lot of, uh, oopsa, like, uh, I don't know. I was like, good for her. I was like, God, just that. I was like, that's a good characteristic to be so gutsy. Good for her.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  As a, as a child of Caribbean immigrants, I, I endorse what you just said. It is, it is a, and you see Simone here busting up from Venezuela. You know, these are new things and I, it's really, it's hard to hit a target that you don't know exists. I, I remember after being on Mel Robbins, somebody sent me a message and he said, I, I did not know that I could control my emotions. I didn't know that was a thing. I didn't know it was possible. And what's interesting is that for people who listen to the podcast, for people who study leadership, when we think about emotional intelligence, we are at least conscious of it. Whether or not we practice it is, is a completely different thing.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  But we often take for granted just how well-known these concepts, concepts are.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  First thing, the second thing I want to dig into, which is the brilliant response that you had is training is how you're able to manage yourself in these tough conversations, in these tough situations. And the thing is, when you think about training, some people will almost give themselves an out and say, well, training is expensive. I don't have time to do the training. Well, life's going to give you plenty of opportunities to train these skills. And when you start to think about life as the ultimate training ground, then you recognize that you have opportunities to practice, not just every day, just every moment of every day in different ways.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  And if you can start to think of yourself as somebody who is constantly in training, then you're going to start to get that level of mastery. And that's the thing. When you think about the 10,000 hour rule, when it comes to achievement of mastery, it's 10,000 hours of deliberate practice. And it's not going to count, it's not going to work unless you are training with intentionality. What did I do well? I'm going to try to replicate that. What did I do poorly? Let me figure out why I did that poorly and try to do something differently in the future. And it's just constantly doing that. And what's interesting, and tell me if this resonates with you too, Sabine, because you'll recognize, it's almost like a video game. All right, level one, used to be challenging, and now you can handle it.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  And then you get to level two and level three, and then you realize that life is just full of infinite levels of emotion management. And so it's always going to be challenging. There's always going to be something to learn. But then when you take the moment and you have the self-awareness to say, hold on, where am I currently? Where was I last year at this moment, when something like this would have happened? Oh, you know what? I would have thrown a plate against the wall. You know, I would have freaked out. This is much better. And we have to celebrate those small wins because that gives us the motivation to continue to improve.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. This is why I posted that story on my LinkedIn. Because I realized that, yeah, my reaction would have been a little bit different

• 44:33Speaker 01

  if I were not practicing my framework. And I want to share, again, life is full of lemons.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  You have to make lemonade, or sometimes trade those lemons for something else. And you have to realize that this is a training ground, and you have to sometimes do a timeout. Timeout. I take vacation and my husband doesn't like this. But I tell him, I said, I need vacation three times a year. At least. And one vacation is on my own. He's like, why? Why would you? I was like, nah. It's not like I need to go in. Well, I usually go away to a quiet place. But the thing is, I need to be by myself.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well-made, and my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high-quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather. And their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. All of it is 50% to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince, and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or just go to quince.com.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with Big Swings Only. That's the best way to support the show. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up, and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea, it's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify Checkout with Shop Pay converts up to 36% higher than

• 46:50Speaker 00

  the competition. So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/Quami to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/Quami. Go to Shopify.com/Quami to hear your first.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Relaxation and doing a timeout is essential for your development. And that's how you could go back in the game. It's just like with any sport. If you do, I used to be a weightlifter back in the day. Wait, yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  And the thing is that you need rest days. Every muscle is trained differently. You need rest days. If you keep training, you're going to strain yourself or your muscles are not going to build the way it should be built. Like your cell phone, you cannot plug your cell phone 24/7 because the battery will eventually start draining.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  I give examples that people could relate because a lot of times, and especially in doing research, there's a lot of technical jargon. And it makes it unattainable for people. And my want, my desire is to help people understand this is attainable. It's not something that you do once and you put it on the shelf. This is part of your DNA. It has to be if you want to improve. It's not a 30-day challenge, 60-day challenge, let's do this, a trend. This is it. And if you want constant, you want to have your

• 48:37Speaker 01

  voice, your visibility and your value for yourself, and the world will see it. The world will see it. And this is where leadership starts from within. And we hear these cliché, we hear these terms all the time, but it's one step at a time.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  And, and, and if you have kids, they are your challenge.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Why did you think spaghetti would be great on the ceiling? Like, they give you your challenges.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Every single day. Yes. Oh, this is so great. And I want to bring in Simone, who's been listening patiently. Simone, what is on your mind?

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Well, um, you are an expert on feedback too. One of the books that you've written is about feedback. And this is something I struggled being in a different culture. I struggled with that because people from Venezuela and from, or from South America, they give and receive feedback in a very different way. I was lucky when I started to work with Kwame because he knows where I come from. So he says, hey, this is wrong, this is right, let's work. So to me, it's clear, easy and direct. So that's why we, we, we create a good team. We make a good team. But here in Canada, feedback is a lot, uh, less direct.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  So I struggle a lot and I don't know how to properly give feedback. And I don't understand when I receive feedback because sometimes when they say, is, this is not my favorite thing, they're saying, I hate it. And I understand this is not my favorite. Oh, maybe it's your second favorite or your third favorite. But no, they hate it. So how, for a person who, who comes from outside of this culture, come from the Caribbean, how can I adjust my way of giving and receiving feedback?

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Very interesting. So now I'm going to just talk about the word feedback, first of all. Okay? And I'll, I'll be happy to respond, I'll respond to your question. Feedback is not positive or negative. Feedback is someone's opinion. Clear. Feedback is not po- I, I'm going to give you feedback. That's my opinion. So now, the recipient, you could take it or you could leave it. Those are your choices in life.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  So when we start framing feedback ac- well, clearly, then now, let's answer the question. Are we, so far, are you with me?

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so it's not positive or negative. It's up to you how you interpret it.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Now, let's flip it. So now they're telling you, you said something very interesting. You realize when they say, that's not my favorite. That means they hate it. So you're already understanding their language. As a person who, English is not my first language either. It's not, I may, you may not hear the accent, but I do have accents. And English is my third language. There is always a gap of a comprehension because we're either translating or we have a cultural, like, you know, this means yes, this, you know, means no. You understand we do these things that other people may not really understand.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Oh, they just had a whole conversation and they just blinked their eyes three times. Okay?

• 52:23Speaker 01

  It's learning a language. So if you now approach it as, I'm going to learn the language, the Canadian language of feedback.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Then you start picking up what these words mean.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  That's it. So you started that already. You told me, oh, when they say, ah, it's not my favorite, that means I hate it. All right.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  It's not my favorite equals hate. Now you know.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Now you know. And so you start putting a little list together so that you could speak their language. That's what this is. Now, two.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  If you're receiving feedback and you think it's.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Like I said, you could take it or leave it. But I always like to digest it. People, when they give me comments, I don't react immediately.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  I, people like, you just got promoted. And I was like, thank you very much. I'm like, yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  You have to process it.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  I call it stop, think, translate. Stop, think, translate. Cause you have to translate into your own language, what was said.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Then if you're still confused, you ask them questions. Now you get their message. Fast forward, you get their message and you're like, that was nonsense.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Disregard.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  So the reaction needs to be somewhat delayed.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Or you hear them, you translate, you go, they have a point.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  I'll implement thirty percent of it. Or all of it, depending on what it is. Because the receiver, you're the filter. You know who you are. Not everything someone says has to influence your behavior. Like my daughter not inviting me to the graduation. Yeah, I'm talking about it. And she's gonna hear this and be like, why are you talking about my business? Well, well.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Right? So it's up to you how you react to certain things. Because then you could say, that feedback was intended to, even though you heard the words, were to destroy my confidence. I'm just making stuff up. Or this person really wanted to help me.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  And ask questions. Well, by you saying it's not your favorite, are you saying that, what is your, what would be your favorite? Would be a good question, right? What would your favorite, what would your favorite look like?

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Speak in their language. Did I respond to you?

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. Yeah, thank you so much.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  I, I love this response because if I were to put nerdy language on this, it sounds like a lot of cultural intelligence and code switching authentically. Right? And because the thing is, if we, the, the more granularity we can, with which we can see the world, the clearer the picture is going to be. So if we say, okay, I'm speaking English, they gave feedback, um, not my favorite means this literally. Then we're going to be limited. But if we think about feedback as a distinct language, what does the language of feedback mean in this culture or with this person?

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Then we can make the adjustment. Cause what often happens is that we, I, I think there has to be a balance. We have to be shaping the world to a certain extent, but then also accepting the world as it is and then making authentic adjustments within that. So if it's an interpersonal conversation, we could give them feedback on how they give feedback. Perhaps we could do that. Perhaps. The other thing is recognizing that a lot of times, especially when we think about organizations, there's a hierarchical hierarchical nature of feedback where it maybe your boss might not be receptive to your feedback about feedback. So that probably isn't realistic. But what is realistic is to say, okay, I see what this person says. I see what they mean. I can understand their vibe.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  I can understand their lingo and I can make adjustments for this person in this context to make, to, to get a deeper level of understanding. That's incredibly powerful. And so when it comes to these situations, when we're feeling like we can't really connect or understand, just treat it like a cultural immersion program. I am entering their world and my goal is to understand. And when you think about it, then it becomes a fun exploration. Oh, that now you start to understand this person and you communicate in a different way. And then it, for me, I, you know, I, I'm a weirdo, but I take pleasure a lot of times in knowing that there are people where

• 57:34Speaker 02

  Other folks just cannot understand, can't get through to, can't connect with and are constantly frustrated by. And then I can go have an easy conversation and they're like, how did you do that? How did you understand what they were saying? I took the time to immerse myself in their world and understand that sometimes the words that they use don't mean what they mean literally. They have a specific meaning for this particular person. And once you accept that, now the world becomes your oyster. Now these interactions become more fun than scary.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  You know, as an auditor, I actually, this is how, this is my nerdiness coming out now.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  I had a list on my computer with people's names and key words if I want them to do stuff. Key words that I should use to get them to accept my audit findings. So I had, I have a, I don't want to show a sticky note with people's names. And I have phrases that I, I parrot back or I, I realize this is how they process things.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  That's so good.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  It's real. So you step back out of yourself. You're like, what are they saying? Like, yeah, you gotta figure out, okay, what are they saying? More of a curiosity has a, of, of, as opposed to being annoyed.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  It takes practice. This is not like, oh, I'm just gonna do this tomorrow. It takes try, see, New York City, the city I love, is a great learning ground. You step out of your house, you are practicing immediately. Dealing with traffic, dealing with people who are talking to themselves. People who are frustrated about life.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  That, go on, come to New York. I'm inviting all your people, all the people who are listening. Come to New York and use this technique. Then you'll start understanding New York is a great city.

• 59:45Speaker 00

  Yes, I'll tell you this, my son Kai, when he got there, um, he, he was blown away. He's like, this is a different planet that we're on. As a father, there were a lot of, uh, you know, interesting conversations I had to have about, about what he was witnessing.

• 1:00:05Speaker 00

  But, you know, you gotta roll with the punches.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, they grow up fast. They grow up fast.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  So true. So being, this has been fantastic. I, I really appreciate you coming in. And, um, before you go, uh, let's, let's do this because I know you, you have the, the audit practice, but you also have the leadership competencies and everything that you do. Can you let the listeners know again, the best way for them to, to connect with you and learn more about what you have to offer?

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Well, there are two ways. LinkedIn, Dr. Sabine Charles. Guess what? My website. Dr. Sabine Charles dot com.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  And on my website, you'll see the work that I do. Not only am I a speaker, I also provide trainings, self-paced, because everyone's busy.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  So you can begin to build and elevate your voice and your visibility and add value. We have self-paced courses, affordable.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  The other thing that I provide are workshops, corporate workshops and also individual workshops. We have cohorts. And we step into working with what do you want to get out of this?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Whatever this is for you. And my job, our job, is for you to get to that within that timeframe. So it's a two-day workshop. With every other month, we call it implementation labs. Like I said, implementation labs, not podcast, not webinar, not I'm just going to check my emails while I'm listening and answering questions when they ask me. Implementation labs, where we implement the techniques that are necessary for you to get what you want. And then the third thing that I offer are retreats. I go around the world.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Uh, we're having a retreat to Morocco. We're planning one to Belize. Again, it's about leadership, tapping into your greatness, tapping into your leadership MEQ. So you could find me on LinkedIn and I post every day on techniques. And then also, we have on my website, you could find information and my book of Leadership MEQ, which is also in French, Spanish, Portuguese, and English. And all of my courses are in those four languages too. No barrier. If you don't, so my friend, if you want it in French or Spanish, it's available to you.

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Amazing, Sabine. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Aronsmele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work. With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, Affectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the US Surgeon

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  General to NFL and NBA stars. It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show, too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.