Reverse Interview: Kwame Answers the Hard Questions - End Every Sentence With This to Win Any Talk

Kwame Christian, negotiation expert and host of Negotiate Anything, reveals the conversation tactics most speakers never have time to share on stage — including how to regain control when someone else is running the room, how to draw out a person who goes completely silent, and why most hard conversations at home are doomed before they even start. This is a reverse interview. Kwame was the keynote speaker at the Life and Annuity Conference (hosted jointly by the Society of Actuaries, ACLI, and LIMRA LOMA) — and the audience Q&A ran so long they ran out of time on stage. So conference organizers Karen Terry and Joe Wurzburger brought the best questions straight to the podcast.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  As you know, most of the time on this show, I'm the one asking the questions. But every once in a while, we flip the script. And today is one of those days. I'm your host, Kwame Christian, and this is a reverse interview. So I recently did a keynote at the Life and Annuity Conference, put on jointly by the Society of Actuaries, the AC LI and Limra Loma. And the audience submitted so many great questions that we ran out of time on stage. So when I do keynotes, of course, I do my, my thing up on stage. I teach on negotiation, conflict resolution and leadership. But I always allocate some time at the end for people to ask questions using an app completely anonymously. So we get really great questions.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  And I always tell people, ask the question that comes to mind. The harder the question, the better. And in this keynote, we had so many questions that I'm bringing some of the organizers onto the podcast to ask some of those follow up questions. So today we have Karen Terry and Joe Wurzburger, and they are going to walk me through the questions that the audience really wanted answered. Like, what happens when both people are trying to listen more than they talk? And why that math breaks down fast? How to draw out someone who goes completely silent and won't engage? How to negotiate upward within a company with a senior leader without bruising their ego? And how to manage your own emotions in real time when a tough conversation starts to spiral?

• 1:28Speaker 00

  We also answer the question that I hate getting the most, and you will see why. And it is, which books are you reading? The answer that you hear will probably shock you. And with that, let's jump in. If you listen to this show, you're probably one of two people. You're someone who's trying to improve their communication skills and learn how to resolve conflict. Or you're a dealmaker who's trying to learn how to get an edge in their next negotiation. So you could either make more or save more. The American Negotiation Institute is built for both. We have keynotes for conferences, workshops for teams, and courses for everyone. Because the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  How about we start with this? Let's talk about the conference and what it was all about. The, the whole idea, the power of promise. I thought that was a really strong angle. So yeah, let's just open up chatting about that a bit.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this is a gathering for folks that work in the life insurance and annuity industry, right, just to learn from each other, to network, to talk to each other about what they're doing and where the industry is growing. And the power of promise, I think, was really twofold. One, the promise of the future for our industry, and also the promise that we make to our policy holders. Right? So, you know, life insurance and annuities provides financial support for people who need it. And there are a lot of people in this industry that really take that to heart. That's their motivation for getting up and going into the office every day. So we really,

• 3:11Speaker 01

  you know, that was a that was a theme that really touched a lot of hearts.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Love that. I love that. What about you, Joe? Any thoughts?

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think Karen hit the nail on the head with the theme. And then one of the things for this particular event that I like so much is it's, you know, we call it a partnered event because there's a, you know, three organizations that come together to put this on, you know, Limeroma, the ACLU, and then I represent the Society of Actuaries. And it's great, you know, we do so many events that are just with the actuaries. And, you know, I love those. But this is a bigger, broader, you know, kind of mix of people that are all working together towards that power of promise. And just the, you know, the hallway conversations are a bit different because of that. The focus of the sessions is a bit different because of that. But it's great to pull everyone together collaborating towards this really important common goal. And I think most of us who get into this industry, we do it because we think

• 4:03Speaker 02

  it helps people. And that empowers us. It makes us feel good about what we do.

• 4:08Speaker 00

  Yes, that's so powerful. And I think that that was that really stood out. Because it wasn't just about business transactions, even though the industry is enormous, like a like a foundational element of the American economy. But at the heart of it, the folks who are running this and doing the day to day operations, they truly care, truly care about people. So I loved to see that it was rooted in that. And so that warmed my heart. But also, you brought up a good point, Joe, too, because I've Like I said, I do these conferences all the time. I don't think I've done one where it was a joint conference with different associations. That really added a different flavor to it because I think there's, I think about it in terms of intellectual cross-training,

• 4:52Speaker 00

  where we can learn really a lot from other people's industries. And this also gave you that added bonus of then being able to connect and like actually in real time network with people from different industries. Thought that was a really strong angle.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we love it. Our organizations have such complementary, you know, purposes, like we work well together. We don't really compete in any way. And so like when we can work together for an event like this, it just, it does feel really organic. And you know, I know like when we do our actuarial conferences, the presenters who often get the highest marks are the non-actuaries because we like to hear from people outside of our bubble. I mean, you know, it just, it's just that diversity of thought, right? And so this, this facilitates that even more.

• 5:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that is powerful, powerful. Well, great. Well, one of the things that we, I like to do with all of my keynotes is get engagement. And I remember when I was starting off, when the crowds were much smaller, it was easy. It was, it's kind of like improv. I ask questions, people answer, and then you play off of that. It's lots of fun. And one of the things that I was afraid of as I started to get bigger stages was that I was missing that connection with the audience. So when I present, I use Mentimeter, which is an app that allows you to engage. And so asking questions, answering like, I'm very playful when I present. You know, most of the engagement is like a background joke, like setting up for a joke.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  But then we have this really cool part at the end. I always save time for questions and I tell people, hey, listen, ask a question, the harder the question, the better, because other people probably have a similar question. And so it gives people an opportunity to engage in a way that doesn't feel like public speaking. And the anonymity helps people to be a little bit bolder with the questions. So with today's episode, what we're going to do is touch on some of the questions that we got to, but a lot of them that we didn't get to, because there were so many of them. And then we could just chit chat about it. So it won't just be like rapid fire Kwame answers. I want to actually hear from both of you because you both are in the industry too. So I think this will be a fun way to deepen the learning for the folks who are there

• 6:59Speaker 00

  and let folks who are listening know that this conference exists and you should come next year too.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Love it.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  Cool. So Karen, how about we let you get started and if you don't, it doesn't need to be in order. Just whichever question really comes out to you. Let's start there.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Okay. So I actually love this, this first question because you, you taught us some really excellent skills during your presentation to implement. But then what do you do when a person you're talking to is doing the exact same thing? Right? You know, how do you, how do you manage that process? How do you manage a conversation where both people are trying to follow the 70 30 rule?

• 7:39Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh, this was good. And this is a fun one to start with too, because there was so much depth behind it. And I wanted to make sure we had time for other questions too. So now I get to actually fully articulate my thoughts on it. So thank you for starting there. So for the listeners, the 70 30 rule, this is my listening rule. I would say my goal is to get the other side speaking 70% of the time. And I'm only speaking 30% of the time because if I do that, I know a couple of things are happening. First, I'm gathering information. Negotiation is an information game. The more information I have, the better I can be when it comes to problem solving. The next thing is I'm creating trust, rapport, and demonstrating empathy because it's not just about listening to understand in for your own benefit.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  It's also in the process, trying to make sure that the person feels heard. So you're gathering information and also warming up the relationship. They feel better about you and the process and the relationship as a whole. And it's, it's really powerful. And when you think about the psychology of it too, you also want to give people an opportunity to talk about the thing that's most important to them. It's not just the interest on when it comes to the actual negotiation, or in this case, talking about insurance policies, whatever it happens to be. It's also the fact that people like talking about themselves. So when you think about it in terms of classical conditioning, old school psychology, Pavlov's dogs.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Think about the association that happens. So what happens is with the old school strategy, the old school classical conditioning study. They have, you have these dogs, you feed them, the dogs will salivate because they're excited to eat. Then over time you pair that, that feeding. Of the dogs with the bell, the dog salivates like, okay, same thing. But then what ends up happening over time is if you just ring the bell, the dog will salivate. Not because the dog likes to eat bells, but because the dog assumes that, you know, something good is coming to. So what you want to do is use that same psychology for these conversations. By giving them an opportunity to talk about the things that they enjoy, the things that are important to you, to them.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  It floods their system with dopamine. They feel good about the process. And as you do that with more time, they will associate that good feeling with you. That is what generates trust. Trust is a feeling. It's a positive bias. They don't need to think deeply about it. It is a subconscious thing that happens automatically. So that's a lot of the depth behind the seventy thirty rule, which brings us back to the question. What happens if the other person's doing the same thing? I'm not, you know, an actuarial science major, but you know, that math doesn't math. So what ends up happening? So a couple of things. It might be a situation where there is no risk. Because sometimes within an organization, people will take this training and now they're both using the methodology.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  But since you can recognize that a benevolent hand is on the wheel steering the ship. You can actually lay back and let the other person take control of the conversation. Cause you know, they're not going to do it in a manipulative way. And so I remember I was talking to one of my friends, Diana Kander, and she is relentlessly curious. She's an incredible keynote speaker. And so I could recognize what she's doing and I'm like, this is utterly delightful. I don't need to steer this conversation. This is really nice. It's awesome. Now, there's another situation where it's more high stakes and the person might not have your best interest in mind. And you are doing the majority of the talking. That's where we have the issue. And this is where it becomes really interesting.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Because when you're using the seventy thirty rule, one hidden element of it is that you are controlling the conversation. Without the other person feeling like they are out of control. Right? And so think about in most of my podcasts, this is a reverse interview. So obviously very different. But in most of my podcasts, the guest does the majority of this talking because I'm asking the questions. I'm controlling the flow of the conversation. So if you're doing the majority of the talking, it might be a sign that you are out of control. The other person is controlling you and you don't know where the conversation is going, which may put it in a bad place. So here's what we do. We don't dodge questions. We answer them shortly. And this is the rule that I want people to pay attention to if they ever find themselves in a situation

• 11:49Speaker 00

  where the other person is controlling the conversation and you are just reacting more so than responding. Answer the question, but everything that you say, like, once you're done talking, the last punctuation must be a question mark. So I'm going to answer, but then I'm going to end everything with a question. So now you are responding to me more so than me responding to you. And so it is a really simple grammatical tweak that you can do to regain control of the conversation. Now, the person is an elite communicator. They're going to start to notice it. They're still going to be asking you questions too. But at least now you're starting to balance the scales a little bit more to make sure that the conversation isn't happening to you

• 12:33Speaker 00

  as much as you being a more willing participant in their interaction. So that's the deeper answer that I didn't give on stage.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  No, that's excellent. I love that you mentioned Diana Kander, by the way. She is one of my favorite keynotes. And she is, she is a riot. She is such a masterful storyteller. I, I remember talking to her after and I, and I, I asked a bit about her preparation because it seems natural. I just kind of thought she got up there and told stories. And no, she works incredibly hard at it, but makes it look so easy.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  So I didn't know you knew her, but that's a, that's a.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. She's great. She, I think more so than any keynote speaker that I personally know, she puts in more work. I mean, it's, it's amazing, astounding.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was telling me about it and it is amazing, but it, it just, it comes off effortless. So. Well, the, this next question, actually, I think I just accidentally illustrated it. Um, I love this next question because it, it, it says, how do you balance being curious with keeping conversations on track and helping you move towards your objective? And I tend to get curious and go on tangents like I just did.

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Um, and, and so like, how do you balance that curiosity with trying to stay focused on an objective?

• 13:45Speaker 00

  I think there's, there's a playful way to do it. And this actually, Joe is a perfect example because you have that curiosity and it might take us off, like onto a tangent, but you recognize it and pull it back. So it's not necessarily a bad thing. I think some of those conversational detours can be really authentic and inject a little bit more warmth into the conversation, so it's not necessarily bad. We just need to make sure that we have an understanding of where we want to go and how we can get back on track. And I think also giving that disclaimer is really helpful, just saying, oh, you know, sometimes I like to go off tantrums, let's bring it back, you know, and then you, but it gives a little smile and then you're back. And that, like that humble disclaimer strategy can be utilized all the time.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Because sometimes people would say, well, what if I, there's a, there's a question that's a little bit awkward. How do I handle that? But I need to ask the question, just say, hey, listen, this next question might be a little bit awkward, but I, I feel like I can't move forward without asking it. So there, right? Or what if I wanted to bring something up, but I don't want to hurt their feelings? Say that, right? Just say that, right? So I think the awareness of recognizing where curiosity is utilized just for genuine curiosity of, of interest that is not on topic, just make sure you immediately bring it back on topic. But then when it comes to curiosity in general, I, I think about it in terms of, I call it pulling the thread.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  So think about times where we've all had that, uh, that garment, that piece of clothing that we really like, but is a little bit past its prime. And then we see a thread kind of pop out and we say, oh, there's a thread. I'll just pull it a little bit. Then you pull it and then the whole thing disintegrates, right? And so I think that's how I think about my curiosity. A lot of times I'll, I'll come up with a list of questions. It's like when I'm doing the podcast, when I'm doing negotiations, just as an intellectual exercise, I will come up with a long list of questions, about 50 or so questions. While at the same time, having the awareness and confidence to know that it is highly unlikely that I ask any of those questions verbatim. It's just the process of looking at those questions, creating those questions.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  That's practice for me being curious in this conversation. I don't know what the next question is going to be until I listen to the person. And so I'm going to figure out what is the thread, the most important part of that conversation. And then I'm going to pull that thread. So the person can talk about a lot of different things. Then I'm going to focus on one thing that I think is the most important. My follow up question is on that and I pull the thread. And then you can see how a conversation can go in a type of a specific type of way by following that specific thread. But then we can go back and revisit other things that the person said previously. That's why I like to take a lot of notes. But then, but I want to do it in an organized fashion. Which brings us back to what you said at the beginning, Joe.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  When it comes to getting, making sure that the curiosity doesn't go out of control to take us off topic. So now when you have that thread mentality, we can say, okay, I know the thread that I want to pull and the direction that I want to go. And I know that this, the questions will guide the conversation in a specific path. And if I ask a question just out of just genuine curiosity, like playful curiosity. I know that creates another branch in the conversation. And if I don't pull it back almost instantly, the conversation gets off topic. So you can take a little detour, but just know the path you want to stay on and bring it back.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  I love that pull the thread analogy and, and I'm going to ask a follow up. That's okay. That's not on our list. Curveball here, but like you, you also sort of gave permission through there or, or sort of, uh, uh, validated the idea of sort of describing what you're doing as you're doing it. Which is, is something I've done without necessarily knowing if it works or not. I kind of call it being like, uh, doing my own play by play sort of of like, and I'll use it sometimes with the difficult conversations. Like sometimes I'll say like, you may not like what I'm going to say, but I feel like I have to say it. Or like, I almost kind of, like I said, do my own play by play. And it, I think what I, I'm hearing you say is that can sometimes make that easier on the listener or like make it less awkward in the moment. Is that, is that right?

• 17:52Speaker 00

  Yes. Oh my gosh, we got to do this more often. This is so fun. So yes, this is, this is giving me an opportunity to talk about so many things I never get to talk about on the podcast. Or in like on the keynote stages, because they have to be so like narrowly focused. And like time bound, but I call this process commenting, uh, commentating the conversation. So what, and if we wanted to use old school negotiation parlance, it would be more akin to, uh, going to the balcony from William and Yuri from getting to yes. And so in what I'm thinking about is this, we're here on the field of play. Both of us in this conversation, we're on the field of play. And sometimes things can get a little bit muddy or maybe things some like, like you said, we might have to touch on a touchy subject,

• 18:37Speaker 00

  whatever it happens to be, then what I do is in my mind, I say, I'm going to take both of us back to the commentator's booth. So we can look at the whole field of play together, right? So I'll say, okay, hey, my next play, it's going to be a little bit heavy, but here's why it's going to be heavy. I have to ask this question because of this, and it might come off a little harsh, but here it is. Right? And so that's the commentator, the commentating there. It also helps in situations where you're reaching impasse, where you're saying, I don't particularly know why the conversational momentum has slowed down or started to get negative. I'm not sure. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to bring both of us up to the commentator's booth and say, hey, listen, does it feel to, I might be off on this, but does it feel to you that we're a little bit off track?

• 19:20Speaker 00

  And they'll say, yeah, I think we're, we're off track here. I said, okay, let's, let's bring it back here. Let's take a step back. I love saying, let's take a step back. So I say, in this conversation right now, what I'm trying to accomplish is this, and I'm trying to accomplish it for this reason. Because I think we can't get past this until we address this. Uh, but I don't want to assume I understand what you're trying to accomplish at this very moment. Can you help me to understand what it is that you're trying to accomplish here and how you're seeing the field of play? Okay. So it sounds like you're trying to accomplish this. I'm trying to accomplish this and perhaps the impasse is because we're trying to accomplish two different things at the same time. Is that fair? Got it. How about this? Let's address your thing first. Let me make sure I fully understand it. We might not come to a conclusion, but I at least want to understand it.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  Then after you feel fully understood on that, how about then I explain my thing? And once we get on the same page, then we move forward. How does that sound? Okay, cool. Ready, break. Then we get back into the conversation. And so I think a lot of times people are afraid of the unknown, especially if they don't have that trust with you yet. And so I really like to be radically transparent. If you are, if I see that fear, that hesitation, I'm confident enough in my negotiation skills and I'm willing to open up the playbook. I mean, my whole career is opening up my negotiation playbook. I don't have a concern with that. And so, once the person says, can understand what I'm trying to do and why I'm trying to do it, then they feel a little bit more comfortable engaging in it and sharing a little bit of what they have to offer to.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  Well, I imagine if you're feeling that, you know, uncomfortableness or whatever, and that they probably are too, probably calling it out, makes it easier on everyone.

• 20:59Speaker 00

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• 22:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely. A little bit of that empathy. You know, that's, that's a good lead in because we have a couple of questions here about what happens when somebody won't budge. Right? So what happens if you see that, you know, somebody's just thinks they're always, they're right and everybody else is wrong. Or they just aren't willing to give and meet anywhere in the middle. So I think you addressed that a little bit in this last conversation, but do you have any additional advice there for that?

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, let me start off with my best Mel Robbins impression. Let them. Right? That's our new book, Let Them Theory. So a lot of times if somebody really needs to be right, you just let them be right. And we say, and the key word is even though. So the key words I should say. So it's like, okay, so let's say we're having a conversation and I'll just do a quick roundup. This is a bit of commentary, but also like commentating the conversation, but also summarizing at really key impasses. The empathy loop strategy for listening that I talked about on stage, listen, summarize, check for understanding. I do that at those inflection points. So I might say something like this. So it sounds like, and again, this is all within the framework of compassionate curiosity.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Acknowledge and validate emotions, get curious with compassion and joint problem solving. We just changed the tone and the application based on the situation, but foundationally, psychologically speaking, it still stays within the framework. So I'm in step number one, acknowledging and validating here because we don't just acknowledge and validate emotions. We can also acknowledge and validate conclusions, beliefs and perspectives. So we can say, so it sounds like you really believe strongly that this is the truth. Did I get that right? Okay, yes. And tell me if I'm right on this, if I'm off on this, but it sounds like you believe this for this, these reasons. Okay, good. I got that. And that makes a lot of sense. And it sounds like, and you did not say this part, but the vibe I'm getting is that it's not just that this is true based on

• 24:47Speaker 00

  the evidence that you provided, but this is something that is a core value to you that you and you would feel almost inappropriate adjusting your belief on this thing. Am I close on that? Okay, sounds good. Now, I can, I can definitely respect that and I can understand where you're coming from. The problem is that even though you believe these things, on my side, I have these problems to solve. And I can't just give you what you want without addressing the problems that I have. So my question to you then is, how can we approach this in a way that allows you to continue to believe what you want to believe? While helping me to accomplish my goals in the process? And so you see how very quickly we go from step one acknowledging and validating that you can, you can just imagine the person's defenses

• 25:31Speaker 00

  starting to go down as they see, feel seen. Because I'm telling you, hey, if you want to believe that, believe that. I still have a problem here too. So you can stay with your belief if you want to, but we're not going to move forward unless you help me too. So the thing is, we often don't recognize that we can separate the person's belief and perspective from the activity that they take. Right? I mean, think about all the times we do things that we don't want to do. Like, uh, hey, I'd rather sleep in. I feel really sleepy. Oh, I've got kids. Doesn't matter. I still gotta do that. So even though I'm sleepy, I will still do what is required under the circumstances.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  So hey, you believe that this isn't fair, or you believe that we should not be doing this, and you, you could be a conscientious objector. That's, that's fair. I can recognize that. Now, the problem is as an organization, we still have this and I need, we have this problem. And from this, let's say it's a person who is not taking accountability or doesn't believe they need to do something. And you're coming at them from a feedback perspective. Let's, let's make it a little bit sticky here. So let's say, all right. So you feel like you shouldn't have to do this because of XYZ reason. Okay, got it. Now the Problem is that for your position, I need somebody in that position who can do these things. So what would it take for you to feel comfortable enough to do it, even though it's not something you really want to do?

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Cause that helps us to circumvent the the feeling and the perspective. It's like, yeah, okay. You can feel that and we still have this problem. Now, we might get to a point where the person says, yeah, I still feel this way and I still won't do it. Okay, here's the thing, we can't force people to do things against their will, but we can reach a point of clarity where we could say, okay, it seems like the only path to victory here would be to get this person to do this thing, even though they might not want to. And if they don't want to, that's fair. Now it's my responsibility to figure out what my plan B is. That becomes really sticky in the moment when we haven't thought about what our plan B is. Because then we come into the conversation with a sense of desperation because we've given up our leverage where the only path to success is through this one person.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  And so we've disempowered ourselves through the process. So I think it's really important for us to have that clear plan B going into the conversation because it helps us to be a little bit more relaxed and not press as much. Because when we press more, it creates that that defensive posture and that's when things start to get stuck. Thanks.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Now, at the start of that answer, you mentioned a book and my family is a big reading family, so I got to hop to that question, which was from the audience. They were curious, as am I. What books are you currently reading? I might expand it beyond what currently reading towards maybe recently read that you might accept.

• 28:15Speaker 00

  So so this is an interesting thing. Um, so let me go back historically speaking, before I say something that sounds flagrantly ignorant. Okay, so so my after school, it was tough for me because I got my um my psychology degree with a minors in foundation of law, foundations of law and Spanish. And then a law degree, a master of public policy, both at the same time completed in three years. So I like to learn and it was really weird to not have the fear of God put in me for reading and learning after school. It's like after the bar exam, after surviving the bar exam, I'm like, what? Nobody's going to force me to. To read anything, what? I'm in control of my education. This is amazing.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  So I was operating at a pace of reading one book per week. So I think it's important to kind of contextualize what reading is to me. Um, I discovered after laws, after all of these degrees, that I'm an auditory learner, not a visual learner. And so I don't read with my eyes. I read with my ears now. So it's audiobooks read at three. Now Audible can go to three point five times speed. So I'm listening in triple speed, taking dictation, like notes with dictation. So um, at the end of it, what I would do is I would have a lot of notes. So I'm talking single space about twenty pages of notes on average. But for a big book like um, Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman,

• 29:43Speaker 00

  that was about sixty to sixty-five pages of single space, size twelve notes. And then what I would do is I would take those notes and put those notes into an audio file. So a lot of times when people think I'm listening to music, I'm not. I would be reviewing my notes, so I don't need to reread the books. So that would help me to just retain the information. So that's why now on stage, I answer so many questions with book references, especially when there's a science part, because I want people to be able to continue that learning. So that is the pace of of of of consumption and retention that I was doing. Now to the ignorant sounding thing. So in in twenty twenty-five, I recognize that I am now becoming seen as a thought leader.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  And I am speaking many times as a thought follower. Because I could go back and see, listen to old podcast episodes that I've done, like when I was a guest on other people's shows, I'd been on over two hundred shows. And I could know what book I was reading by the answers that I was giving. It was still at its core Kwame, but I'm like, mm, I was reading fifty philosophical classics at that point. Because I see that, I hear it in the way that I'm answering. So what I started to do was this. Twenty twenty five, I said, I have my New Year's resolution is to not read a book this year. No books, no books. I am, my goal is to, to dig deeply into my own thought leadership,

• 31:12Speaker 00

  because I've written two books. I read other people's books. Why don't I create my own book of life month to month? So I call it metacognitive journaling. So I just dictate everything. Every decision that I make that was good, I analyze it, figure out what made it good. What was I thinking? What was I feeling? How did it lead to a good outcome? Any decision that I made that was bad, I analyze it. What was I thinking? What was I feeling? What was the input that led to the output? So I'm constantly evaluating things. What are things that I like? What are things I don't like? What are observations that I've made? Those types of things. So month to month, I'm creating these documents that are just like my book of life of observations of journaling. About a hundred thousand plus words per month of just journals. And then I would start to review

• 31:57Speaker 00

  that. So I'm constantly learning still, but not reading other people's stuff. And if it's a book that I really want to read at, at this point, I can just invite the host onto the podcast, the, the author under the podcast to talk to.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Not everyone has that option.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Exactly. So I needed, so, so to answer your question, what am I reading? Nothing. But if I just say nothing, I sound dumb.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, you wanted, needed a longer answer there. No, that's remarkable. And it sounded the way you described that the journaling that that was maybe started off as a twenty twenty five thing, but it sounds, I mean, here we are approaching the halfway point of twenty twenty six. It sounds like you're still going with it. So is this become a new habit versus a twenty twenty five thing?

• 32:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. Because I was still, I was still taking these journal notes. But the thing is, the, the focus was distributed because the majority of my notes were on other people's books. Because I was still doing that book a week mentality. So I was taking those book notes, but then my life observation notes. But now my life observation notes are way longer, because I'm giving myself permission to, to focus on the things that I need to focus on. And it's been, it's been really fun. And, but again, I think the biggest challenge was to stop reading because I, I got kind of addicted to it, you know?

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  But, but it's been really rewarding.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Well, I had I had flashbacks to that scene from Good Will Hunting when you were saying like, you know, you didn't have your thought follower and you know, the the famous bar scene where the guys like spouting off things from books and Will Hunting's like, you have any thoughts of your own on this?

• 33:33Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  And I I love reading and so I'm not going to stop doing it, but I see how you could fall into that trap of just reflecting other people's thoughts versus coming up with your own. You do need to challenge yourself as you read other people's ideas to say, do you agree or disagree? And like, there is, there's a process, but I I lot of respect for what you're doing and all that writing you're doing.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Thank you. No, I appreciate it. And a lot of it, a lot of the books that I was reading, some of them were self-help ish, but a lot of them were because I I had, I didn't have a business degree, but I'm an entrepreneur running a company. So I had to learn business. That was the stuff that I learned afterwards. But what I've recognized is that with a lot of these books, there is some kind of change or that they would want you to implement, even if it's a book that's not like traditional self-help. It might be a book on strategy. You still write a book on strategy with the assumption that somebody's going to do something different. But when you're consuming at that pace, you don't have any time to really implement these things week to week, you know? And so I recognize, I said, well, like, what is the purpose of this? Just knowing for the sake of knowing? That's, I think that's the

• 34:36Speaker 00

  difference between wisdom and intelligence. You might be smart, you might be able to recite and retain a lot of information, but are you really putting it into use? Like, that to me is the distinction. And so I was like, I'm becoming smarter, but I don't feel I'm becoming wiser. So I need to focus on reflections a little bit more.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I'm still stuck on how fast you were reading.

• 34:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Karen, I have a, I have a story for that. So my, um, one of my friends back in undergrad, he was blind, but his situation was unique because I remember I discovered this during the game, two, two truths and a lie. And he's like, uh, one of his, the things that he said was, I scored the game winning goal in, in the state soccer tournament. I'm like, I mean, with all due respect, that sounds like a lie. Um, I don't understand how that could happen.

• 35:27Speaker 00

  No, it's, it's true. He became blind. And undergrad after the. Yeah, so he had to learn how to be blind. So he said he one time when he was shadowing a lawyer instead of reading with Braille. She was she turned everything into audio. And he said it was going so fast that he didn't even identify it as words. He's like, it just sounded like noise. And so that's when it hit me that processing speed is a learnable skill. So I said, OK, with the podcast I listened in one time was like regular speed. Let me go to one point two five. Then after a certain time you master it. And that so a few months and it's like, OK, one point five. OK, one point seven five. And then just every few months I would get it a little bit faster.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  And now it's like, it's like when especially when it comes to the notes. Because the notes application I use an app called Voice Dream. You could get it up to seven hundred words per minute. And if you are familiar with it, you with that pace, you have to be somewhat familiar with it. But it just it sounds like nonsense.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Sure. I'm picturing an auctioneer.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  It's really funny. Whereas because sometimes what I do is I'd I'd walk around the house or walk around my friends and I bob my head like I'm listening to music. And they're like, what are you listening to? And I let him listen to it and they're like, oh, what?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Oh, man, that's funny. All right, I'm gonna go a slightly different direction here. Because we've talked and this is my question, not not one off of the list. We've talked a lot about how to listen to other people talk and and make them feel heard. What do you have when you're you have someone that you need to discuss something with? That won't talk. You know, there's a problem. But they won't speak up.

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. OK, I've got something really good. So I had one of my friends, I'll shout him out, Andy Newton. He was on the podcast. He was a listener of the podcast for a long time. And then I did a workshop. He's in real estate, like a masterclass in New York City. He flew up to do it. And what was really funny is that when I was going through compassionate curiosity, he quoted me to myself and it was something I forgot.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  He said that one of my favorite things that you mentioned before was that sometimes if you don't know what the emotion is, you you you could say, um, it's, it feels like something, there's something here that is being left unsaid. And then you just hit them with silence. And so what we do in this situation when somebody isn't talking, again, we're going to stick within the framework of compassionate curiosity. We're going to label the emotion that we see is going to be the most respectful hypothesis that we could come up with. So you could use something like this, hey, I might be off, but it seems like there's something here that is is being left unsaid. That could be one, or a simple, it seems like you don't

• 38:29Speaker 00

  really want to have this conversation. Or you, I I love to give permission to not answer my question. I said, I'll say something like, so feel free to to ignore this question or not answer it. But what is it that you want to say to me right now that you don't feel comfortable saying? Something like that. And the the key thing is to let them know that we see something, we're not quite sure what it is. This is a safe space. I'm curious to know. But the the the magic is in the silence. Because people are very uncomfortable with silence. And you, I, when you think about journalists asking questions, some of the best questions come with, some of the best responses come when the journalist

• 39:14Speaker 00

  like stumbles over their with their words, or their freeze in the moment, and they don't know what to say next. And then there's an awkward silence. And then the the guest just fills in the silence with something absolutely incriminating, you know, it's like, what are you doing? Just be quiet. And actually, after, after our keynote, one of the the folks in the audience, hopefully, he hears this, shout out to you, sir. But he gave me a quote I never heard of. He's like, silence can't be quoted. Every year, I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year, it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made. And my first thought was, who else on my list needs one? Quince makes high quality staples with 100% Mongolian cashmere and Italian leather.

• 39:59Speaker 00

  Leather and their cashmere sweaters start at just sixty dollars. All of it is fifty to eighty percent less than similar brands because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. As a negotiator, I know a great deal when I see one. This is luxury quality without the luxury price tag. I use Quince and you should too. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or just go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Kwame with big swings only. That's the best way to support the show. Try this, pull up your notes from a meeting last week.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Do they still make sense or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me and as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured notes that still makes sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call. Just your normal meeting, but with superpowers. If meetings are eating up your day, granola is a no brainer.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. I thought that was powerful, but what we want to do is we want to utilize that silence. We make that label sit back. And let's say hypothetically, let's look at this through the lens of personality psychology. It might be the person might be neurodiverse. The person might be um and more introverted. If they're more introverted, they process slower and beneath the surface. Extroverts process faster and they process while speaking. And so especially if you have that a personality dynamic where it's an intro uh an. Extrovert talking to an introvert and it seems like the introvert's shutting down.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Sometimes the introvert might be shutting down because you think that they are done talking, but you just talk over them because you think faster, right? And so the silence is so important because it gives the person time to process. It kind of checks for all of these things. If they're trying to be stoic and not say anything, they can fill the gap. You're you're kind of weaponizing that awkwardness. If they are neurodiverse or they are somebody who is more introverted in that case, then you give them time and space to process. Either way, the silence is doing a lot of work. And then one of the things you can do is I'm I'm going to shift to the focus of negotiation. Because remember at the beginning of the the session, I talked about the definition of negotiation being anytime you're in a conversation and somebody in the conversation wants something.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  So I might have gone into the conversation wanting to get a deal or wanting to solve a specific problem. But now I'm going to reorient my goal and say, now, actually, in this moment, my only goal is to negotiate for communication. That doesn't need to be right now. And so I might say, hey, listen, would it be better to have this conversation on another another day? That's the thing, you know, and we want to give them the space to feel comfortable. Again, psychological safety is important. And if you have the luxury of negotiating at a different time, just pick the best time and just recognize now might not be the right time. And the thing is, I'm playing for the long game because most likely I'm not, this isn't the last time I want to talk to this person. And I don't want to do unnecessary damage to the relationship by forcing them to talk when they don't want to talk if I have the option of renegotiating time.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  And so again, it's a trust is gained in drips and lost in buckets. And if you're one of those people who is willing to give them space and a moment when they need it, that pays dividends down the road.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  The silence can be, I find myself sometimes talking to fill the silence and and and I had, this is a little tangent, but kind of related. I had an experience not too long ago where I paid someone a compliment, you know, I something they had done, I complimented him on it. And the response to me was simply, thank you. And I didn't know what to do with that. I'm so used to getting a compliment and be like, oh, no, it's nothing. You know, it really, you know, his other people, you know, and you deflect or you go on with all the, and he just said, thank you. And I'm like, I that I need to use that.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  That's

• 44:22Speaker 02

  simple, but so powerful. Sometimes less is more.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  That's a great example. Does, yeah, it's so funny because that is the appropriate response, but it's not the response we ever get, you know?

• 44:34Speaker 02

  I was thrown off and I'm like, why was I thrown off? That is the perfect response to get. I never give it like sometimes just say, thank you, and then let it be. Um, accepting the compliment can be hard. Um, all right. So another audience question here that I, I love that they asked this because I do see this in my day job is, um, when, you know, you, some of what we've talked about is if there's some implied, you know, equality between the people who are in negotiations. But what about back in the office? If you are talking with higher ranking coworkers, um, who there, you know, maybe they're worried they won't see the importance or implications of the issue. And, and, and part of why I can relate to this is like, some of the people who are maybe lower ranking might be closer to the issue we're talking about.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  They might actually know some things that, you know, the leaders don't know, but how do you kind of get work through that? Maybe power imbalance?

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Yes, this is a good one because let's, let's come up with a scenario because you're correct. Most of the time, the folks who are at the lower levels in the org chart are the people who actually have the most intel on the problem. And so that becomes a, that becomes very challenging because the people who are making the strategic decisions don't understand what's happening. And so they might make this decision that takes us in the wrong direction, but they don't have the data necessary. But then they also might be moving quickly and kind of dismissive. So how do we get them to see it? So again, we're going to stick to the framework compassionate curiosity, but remember we can dial up the assertiveness or dial it down. We can change the tone as necessary. So it's never a question of whether or not it applies. It's just a question of how.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  And so when you're managing up, negotiating up, then in those cases, we're going to frame everything in terms of advice. You don't have the power or authority to make a decision. You always Have to be deferential in the sense of recognizing that they have the power to make a decision. And your job is to help them to make the best decision possible. You're a counselor. Now, the thing is, we also have to think about the psychology of power. And how people who are motivated by power, usually people who start to climb an org chart are. One thing that's interested, interesting about the psychology of power is that if the person does not feel as though you recognize their power, then it could be labeled as a threat or disrespectful.

• 46:51Speaker 00

  And folks who have higher power are often more sensitive to that. And so what ends up happening is that the conversation shuts down because their ego is inflamed. And instead of really having a conversation, they're trying to make sure that you know your place in this relationship too. Right? So how do we handle all of those things? It's, it sounds like a lot, but again, we have to keep everything as simple as possible. So I want you to take their ego and treat it essentially as an emotion. We're in step one, acknowledge and validate the emotion. But we're not just going to puff their ego up without giving ourselves some kind of lift up as well. So it could sound something like this.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  So we could say, hey, Karen, I'm looking forward to having this conversation because I know that you, you've been in this industry for, for longer than me. And you have a, and you have a lot of experience to bring to this solution. And for me, my role in this conversation is I've been the person who's been working this project. And so I've seen some things that I think could be helpful in helping you to make this decision. And I think between the two of us, we could figure this out. So what I've done here is I've made it clear, listen, Karen, you don't need to let me know how awesome you are. I just proved to you that I see it. Okay? And so, and so we want to figure out what the source of their ego is. Where is their ego coming from? Maybe it's because of awards that they've won. Maybe it's because of the experience that they had.

• 48:13Speaker 00

  Maybe it's because of the rank or whatever, some successes. The way to know where the source of their ego is, is because they'll tell you. They'll tell you why you're awesome, right? And so you start with that. So that way they don't feel like it's a threat. And now again, we're framing this from the lens of advice. So you say, this is the problem I'm seeing. How would you approach this? You see how we've seamlessly moved to step number two of compassionate curiosity. Now, at this point, they might say something that is, um, that flies in the face of the evidence that you have in front of you. And so you know, this is a bad strategy because there's something you're miss, they're missing. So you want to say, listen, summarize, make sure that they know that you know. Because if you don't prove that you know, they will assume that you disagree because

• 48:57Speaker 00

  you didn't understand. So I want to make sure that they under, they understand that I understood. So, okay, so based on what you're saying, you think we should use this strategy for this reason, because it solves this problem. Did I get that right? Okay, is there anything else that I should know about that? Okay, good. If there's something else, listen, summarize it. If there's not, move on. And so you could say, now, the interesting thing is, I can see where you're coming from, because that strategy does make a lot of sense in some circumstances. Now, the problem is, insert data and evidence that you've discovered. That change, that, and that might change the context. So given this evidence that you didn't know before, what impact does that have on your evaluation? So you see how we're framing this? It's, it's not me going against them.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  They come up with a suggestion, I'm saying it's wrong. I'm saying, hey, that's a really good suggestion. Here's some more evidence. How does that change your perspective? And so at the end of the conversation, by, by flowing through the framework in this way, they feel as though they came up with every solution themselves, but it's you really leading them there with curiosity questions and strategically providing evidence to shape their perspective. So they feel a more, a greater sense of ownership over the outcome.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  I like that. We sometimes talk about leading from behind, where you sort of do that, and if people end up thinking it was their idea, or I'll say Jedi mind tricks, but that's

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  These are not the droids you're looking for.

• 50:27Speaker 00

  You can really feel like that sometimes. And it's really funny, I did a, like a masterclass with a company called Mindvalley. And so it was really fun going out to Amsterdam, recording this course for multiple days. So we had a director, multiple folks on the camera and everything, like a full team. A makeup artist, I looked gorgeous. It was great.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  My bald head looked perfect.

• 50:54Speaker 00

  And so it's been really cool continuing the relationship with those folks because every once in a while I'll get a message like, compassionate curiosity works. I just used it again.

• 51:08Speaker 00

  It's so cool. It's like, it's magic.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Oh, man, that's great. Okay, so I like this one. So the next question from the audience was about tools to manage your own emotions. So if you're in a conversation and you're starting to get upset and you feel like you're not being heard, you know, what do you do?

• 51:33Speaker 00

  Oh, good. This is, again, this is one of those where it's like, there simply is not enough time to get to the depth that's required. So let's first bring up a concept. So imagine if we were in the woods and a spark falls on the ground. The faster you can recognize the spark, the less likely there is to be a problem. The longer it takes for the spark to be recognized, the bigger the problem is. And so it's harder to stop that fire once it gets momentum. And so I call this the spark theory of emotion management. The key to emotional intelligence, the first step is self-awareness, recognizing when it is that you're off. And the faster you can start to recognize that, the faster you can get control. So that's going to be one of the core concepts as I explain the rest. So two things that we need to do.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  Oftentimes, going into these tough conversations, we prepare strategically, but we don't prepare emotionally. So what we need to do is think about the triggers that we might have going into the conversation. What could the person do or say that could throw us off? And so we want to make sure that We're prepared for that effectively. But then also, if we're already triggered or having heightened emotional states going into the conversation, the we can use compassionate curiosity internally directed. It took me so long to to figure out this framework because I wanted it to be very, very simple and and check many boxes. So think about how emotion management is a core element of the framework externally focused. Again, what we're going to do is we're going to take that same framework, same steps, apply it internally.

• 53:01Speaker 00

  So we're going to label our own emotions. That's going to be step one. What am I feeling? I'm frustrated. What am I feeling? A little bit intimidating, intimidated. Okay, what else am I feeling? Um, I'm feeling, I'm honestly confused about this situation. Confusion, yes, is a state of being, but it's also a feeling. There's a sensation associated with that, too. Okay, anything else? No. Okay, good. Quick note, as we're going through our own emotions, just recognize that most of the time it's going to be multiple things, not just one. It's usually an emotional cocktail. And the more specific we can get, the more emotional relief we get. Because the same psychology applies. The emotions come from the amygdala. We want to activate the frontal lobe where we have more clear thought. And so by labeling the emotions, that's the way we activate the frontal lobe

• 53:47Speaker 00

  in them and in ourselves. So then step two, we're asking why? Why do I feel this way? So we want to get an explanation of why we feel this way. So we might be intimidated because of rank. We might be confused because of a lack of information. Whatever it happens to be, we want to be very clear with ourselves. As you go through this process and prepare in this way, you're going to see your emotional temperature start to drop as you go through it. Um, and then the last step is joint problem solving with yourself. So what should I actually do next? You know, so you could figure out, yeah, I should have this conversation. Or actually, I should prepare a little bit more. I realize that the confusion has not been alleviated. I can do more prep. Whatever it is, that helps you to get an understanding of what happens next. So you do that beforehand.

• 54:30Speaker 00

  Then during the conversation, here's my trick. So if I'm having a tough conversation, um, again, I like to have a notepad. So as I start to get triggered, and it's so funny, at some point, somebody's going to listen to this and then like call me out. They'll be like, oh, I made Kwame mad. I know it.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  What I do.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  Is I say, you know what, Joe, you've made a lot of good points. You mind if I take some notes? And so, quick note, nobody's ever going to tell you, no, you can't take notes. If you, that's weird. That would be absurd. So they always say yes. And so, a lot of times, I'm so upset that I'm not even writing anything. I'm just like scribbling. I'm turning it into a tactile meditation and I'm trying to control my breathing. And I'm asking myself these questions. What am I feeling? Oh, I'm pissed off. Okay, well, okay, what else? Yeah, I'm offended. Yes. Okay, what else? No, that's it. So I'm thinking about this quickly in my head. Why do I feel this way? Because they said that thing. It seemed like it came out of left field. Okay, what else? And so I'll get that idea. What should I do next? The answer is always pretty much come to the conversation, come back to the conversation with

• 55:35Speaker 00

  an open-ended question. So I go through that process in about five to 10 seconds. And then I say, okay, thanks for letting me take that time. Joe, this, this, this reminds me of something. I have a question for you. Boom, ask the question. Then I come back to the conversation. And now the person is reacting to me. I'm back in control by asking these questions. So that's my little thing for saying, oh, like, managing my own emotions in the moment. But again, the faster you find, notice that thing, the better you are going to be able to control it. But if I say, if I pretend to myself, because a lot of times we feel it, but we act like it's not a problem. If I, if I pretend that I'm okay, and I just try to like,

• 56:19Speaker 00

  white knuckle through this thing, then what ends up happening is inevitable emotional leakage. It's going to come in. I'm going to sound a little bit aggressive, or defensive, or sassy, or whatever it is, the little passive aggressive jabs. I'm going to think I'm controlling my emotions, but I'm not. You have to find some way to alleviate that emotional tension in the moment. And the faster you find it, the better off you're going to be.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  That sounds like it comes with practice.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  A lot. A lot. And, and Karen, to that point, because that's one of the reasons I have that slide where I say, list all your personal and professional negotiations. And everywhere I go is always dinner. Everybody says dinner every single time. And so it's, and I tell people, look at this pattern with my wife, with my kids, with my husband, with my friends, whatever. And so I said, you brought me to this professional conference. The majority of your negotiations are interpersonal. So you're going to have most of your negotiations with the people who are closest to you. And that means all of those conversations are practice opportunities. So it does take a lot of practice. And so I've got two kids and, and every day is a practice.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  And I'll, I'll give this example. I remember there was a time, like, it's so funny to think about the things that you have to teach these children. I'm just always astounded. Like, they don't come downloaded into these, can I get another version? What's happening here? And so one of the weirdest things that you have to teach them is how to spit out the mouth, not, not the mouthwash, but the toothpaste when you're brushing their teeth. They're always eating it. And then like when they're wanting to, and then you're like, no, no spit it out. And they're like, what? Is that it? And that's not, that's not it. Blowing raspberries is not what I'm telling you to do. And so I remember one time brushing Dominic's teeth and he was, he was, you know, having his little meltdown, his tantrum.

• 58:10Speaker 00

  And I'm like, I gotta just brush your teeth. Just go to bed. This will all be done for both of us. Please just finish this. And then for the first time in his life, he looked at me in the face and spat in my face.

• 58:28Speaker 00

  Try this. Pull up your notes from a meeting last week. Do they still make sense? Or do they just seem like random notes that only the old version of you could decode? That used to be me. And as a negotiator, that's a real problem because my job is to listen, not type or write notes. That's why Granola has been one of my favorite tools, period. It's an AI powered notepad. I jot my usual rough notes and then Granola securely transcribes the meeting in the background. And when it ends, I get clean, structured. Notes that still makes sense a week later. Decisions, owners, next steps, everything that I would need to feel good about going forward. And it works through your device's audio too, so there's no additional setup or any annoying AI joining your call, just your normal meeting, but with superpowers.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  If meetings are eating up your day, granola is a no brainer. You can try it totally free for three months. Just go to granola.ai slash Kwame. That's granola.ai slash Kwame to get your time back. Get three months free at granola.ai slash Kwame. If you were going to take a big swing this holiday season and start a business, what would you build? Maybe it's that one idea that you can't stop thinking about. I've built a business from the ground up and I can tell you that the hard part isn't the idea. It's getting it live. That's where Shopify comes in. You can sell everywhere people shop, online, in person, across social media, even in AI chats. And Shopify checkout with shop pay converts up to thirty six percent higher than the competition.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  So more of the people who show up actually buy. Plus, Black Friday is when more people are already shopping and ready to buy. So the sooner you're live, the better. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com slash Kwame. Go to Shopify.com slash Kwame to hear your first.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  How did you with taking those five to 10 seconds in that moment?

• 1:00:27Speaker 00

  You know what I said? I was like, excuse me, Dominic, I need to take some notes.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  But I remembered, I said, okay, listen, Kwame, if you can hold it in in this situation, just remember in most of your negotiations, people aren't going to be spitting in your face. So if you can hold it together now, you could hold it together then. And then like traffic, everything becomes a stoic practice. And so you're right, carried, it does take a lot of practice. We widen our. Perspective on what these practice opportunities are, then we start to get a lot better faster.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. I love that you gave the tooth brushing example because we, I got two kids too. And we just this past week, we transitioned from the kid flavored toothpaste to the adult toothpaste. And you would think, if you were listening, you would think there was some real actual child abuse going on the way that they're yelling. It's mint tea, it's mint tea. Like this is like abusive. And my bike and I are trying so hard not to laugh, but we're here. Yes, it's flavored toothpaste. What, what do you expect?

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  Daddy, don't give me the spicy toothpaste. I was like.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  He said spicy. I'm glad it's not just my kid. They said spicy. I'm like, what does that? No.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  What does it mean? I was like, son, we're from the Caribbean. This is not spicy. Okay.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness. Oh parenting. You get all the training you need from the parenting.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  Yes. Yes. I tell you.

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  Well, I think, I, I think you partly answered this next one already, but this feels like the perfect transition. Cause a lot of the examples we gave at least earlier were in professional settings. But this audience question was about like, you know, how do you apply some of these interactions at home? And, and I think it's not just how do you handle the hard, like the toothpaste abuse? But like to have, to have more meaningful conversations and interactions. Like we joked about it, but I don't, you know, I don't generally have a notepad at home and can't do some of those things like, but how, so, so would you do to kind of maybe modify or adapt these for these, you know, non-professional situations?

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  Yes. Whitney has let me know that having a notepad during a conversation is off putting. Uh, so, yeah.

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  A lot of you. On a date night with a notepad.

• 1:02:49Speaker 00

  Doesn't work the same way. And so I think one of the things we have to do is, okay, yeah, actually let's, let's, let's, let's start from a different point. Because this is something that we do not address enough. Some of these conversations are just doomed to fail because of timing. Just doomed to fail because of timing. And it's not, you could put the best negotiator in the world. They couldn't manage that. And so let me give an example. So think about, actually let me do, when, so in, if in your personal life, when you've had a significant other, when are you having these conversations? Like the toughest ones, what time do they usually happen?

• 1:03:26Speaker 02

  Well, it's probably early morning or late at night when the kids are not awake.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly. Early morning where you're trying to rush through your morning to get to the next thing. So you're focused on trying to move quickly through the conversation, not effectively. And so a lot of times, the the very thing that we seek to gain is the thing that holds us back from getting what we really want. So we're focused on time and not focused on the relationship or the the actual quality of the conversation. And so by trying to rush, we make things worse, which makes the conversation expand much longer than it needs to go. Because we're focused on time, not connection. And then put it to the end of the evening, the what ends up happening? Let me tell you a study. So they found that in parole judges.

• 1:04:13Speaker 00

  What they found is that at the beginning, and just for context for folks who might not be familiar with a parole judge, they're taking people who were in prison or incarcerated and determining whether or not they can get a little bit of freedom. Have you been good enough? Do you can you get out early? Those type of things. Okay. So what they found is that in the mornings, the judges were more likely to say yes. And then as the morning went later, they were more likely to say no. And then after the after like in the early afternoon, they were more likely to say yes. And then as the the day went on, they were more likely to say no. What was happening? Their brains were getting tired because they were hungry. And so the safer answer is going to be no. So they're willing to actually consider it when they have more cognitive energy.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  But then they're just going to default to know when their brain starts to fade. So what ends up happening is that especially when you push it to the end of the day, you're there's something called the ego depletion, where you have essentially decision making fatigue. So if we push it to the end of the day, think about what has to happen. You have to use this, you have to use energy, like cognitive energy to get out of bed if you're tired, to go to the gym if you have, if you do that, to get things ready for yourself and your family, if you have a family. You have to make all these decisions during work and then like work depletes the the best parts of your of your like cognitive capacity. And then after all that, you're going to have a conversation that's really emotional. You don't, you literally.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  Really don't have what it takes. And so a lot of times these conversations are doomed to fail simply because we strategize it poorly. And then heaven forbid, you actually try to have the conversation while doing other things. While while distracted, especially if you have if you have kids too. I mean, it's chaos, right? And so you're overstimulated at the same time. So we don't design the conversation and strategize the timing of the conversation in a way that's optimized for success. So that's one of the main reasons conversations failed and because they were doomed to failure because of the timing of it all. But now let's actually talk about the mechanics of the conversation. Again, we're still going to use the same framework, but we are going to calibrate it more with a little bit more warmth and a little bit more love and empathy.

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  In these conversations at home. And I think what is required to happen, what we need to do is we want to make sure that we are generous conversationalists. And what I mean by that is that we're focusing on the other person. We have to get back to the fundamentals. And I I recognize this in myself too, because it's easy for me to sit back and be curious because I can say, I don't need this person to fully understand me. I'm okay with being a little bit understood if I can get what I need out of this interaction. But for the people that we care about the most, there's a deeper need for our own understanding, which will make us want to speak more, which would make the other, but the same. The same thing is happening for the other person. So now it feels like we're fighting for the microphone in the conversation.

• 1:07:08Speaker 00

  And it feels more combative because of that reason. So I think we need to feel focus even more on the fundamentals because our emotional state is going to be heightened. The more emotions we have, the less skills we have. That's just how it is in any type of performance. You know, and so what we have to do is say, all right, the I need to do a little bit of my own homework before going into the conversation. Do that emotional preparation going in. How many times do we prep for conversations with our significant other? We just fly right in.

• 1:07:37Speaker 00

  Right with no, no prep, no nothing.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  What could go wrong?

• 1:07:40Speaker 00

  What could go wrong, right? And so just take two minutes and go through that exercise of of internal compassion. Curiosity and if you're in a relationship for a long time, you know, the things that they're going to say or do that are going to trigger you. You know it. And so you should, you should be ready for when those things happen. And so I think those, those little things can really help. But I think a big part of it is, I think, having a bigger, like a more structured approach for listening. And so what I, what I've found really helpful is I say, okay, what I'm going to do is I am going to let Whitney say everything that she needs to say. Everything that she needs to say. And how do I know that she said everything? I will keep on asking and then she says, I've got nothing else to say. That's how I know.

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  Right? And so she says everything and then I say, okay, would you mind if I take an opportunity to say my piece now? Since there's nothing else that she needs to say at that point, now she's more primed to listen. And so then I think if we sequence it that way, then it makes it more likely for the conversation to go well. And the other thing that I would do is also assume that you are the person who has these skills. And not in an egotistical type of way, but more in an accept, uh, accepting of responsibility type of way. Because you see the way that I use these skills, it's not in a Machiavellian manipulative type of way. We use this for the betterment of the relationship and the conversation. So I'm going to say, okay, I'm going to assume that the other person doesn't know how to listen well. So I'm going to show them first.

• 1:09:10Speaker 00

  I'm going to assume that the other person is going to be a little bit defensive. Okay, great. I'm going to make sure that they feel safe. I'm going to take responsibility for that. And I think if we approach it in that way, focusing more on them than on us. Then the spotlight will naturally shift to us when they feel seen and heard first.

• 1:09:27Speaker 02

  When I loved you use the phrase structured approach, listening, which I don't think I've heard before. I've heard, you know, the importance of listening and, you know, listen more than you talk, but a structured approach to it. That's a new, a new concept for me to think about.

• 1:09:40Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you. Yeah. Unfortunately, that is all the time we have today. I mean, we could have kept on going forever. This was so much fun. I appreciate you coming on the show and, and, um, and creating this really cool piece of content, not just for your audience, but also for mine. So that was really generous. And, um, before you go, I just want to give you all an opportunity to, to, to shout out your, your organizations, the conference for next year, any causes you care about. This is your time to shine. So Karen, I'll let you go first.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah. Thanks again, um, for, for speaking at our conference, the, the life and annuity conference, um, this year in Tampa. Um, we, uh, we're, next year we'll be back in Florida in Orlando, and we're looking forward to another great program. Looking forward to working with you again, Joe. Kwame, sadly we won't see you, but we can't keep you on the road.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  Uh, huge, huge thank you for speaking at the first event, for inviting us to do this here today. Um, yeah, we, it, it, like I said, it's a partnered event. So we've got the ACLU, we've got Limeroloma, we've got the Society of Actuaries, um, coming together for the event and, and sharing appreciation with you for doing this. Uh, I agree, we could have kept talking all day. This was a lot of fun. So thank, thank you again.

• 1:11:02Speaker 00

  This is great. Thank you both for coming. Really appreciate it. Hey everyone, I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever, and it's hosted by my good friend, Maura Aaronzmele, and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff, but anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work. With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the US Surgeon General to NFL and NBA

• 1:11:46Speaker 00

  stars. It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.