Pod Insights Negotiate Anything The Leadership Trap High Achievers Can't See -Jessica Kriegel About this episode Jessica Kriegel, Chief Science Officer at Culture Partners, lost her father two days after he came home for good — and spent the next year drinking to forget it. What pulled her out wasn't hustle. It was surrender.
Jessica is the Chief Science Officer of Culture Partners, a global workplace consulting firm that drives results for some of the world's largest organizations. She's also the author of Surrender to Lead and host of the CEO Daily Brief podcast. Her research sits at the intersection of culture, belief systems, and measurable business outcomes.
In this episode, Kwame and Jessica unpack why the need to control is quietly destroying results — and why the fastest path to what you want requires you to give up the illusion you ever had control in the first place.
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Transcript 12,245 words · 3 speakers
0:00 Speaker 00 Jessica Kriegel is the Chief Science Officer of Culture Partners, a workplace culture forum that works with some of the world's biggest organizations. She's also the author of Surrender to Lead, a book that was born out of personal loss, getting sober, and a moment on a sidewalk that she can't fully explain. And here's what we get into today. Why the need to control is the thing that is quietly destroying your results as a leader. The shift model, a five-step framework for moving from resistance to radical acceptance. What Sitting With the Dying taught her about the choices that we make every single day, and how surrendering isn't giving up.
0:43 Speaker 00 It's actually the fastest path to get what you really want. If you've ever wondered whether letting go could actually be the most powerful move you could make, this conversation will show you how. Let's jump in. Today's episode is brought to you by Shopify, Granola AI, Quince, and the Anxious Achiever Podcast. Stay present in your meetings. Get three months of granola free at granola.ai/Quami. For your gift list, shopquince.com for free shipping and 365-day returns. And make sure to tell them that Quami with Big Swings only sent you. Subscribe to the Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Do you have an idea that you want live for the holidays?
1:26 Speaker 00 Launch before Black Friday at Shopify.com/Quami.
1:32 Speaker 01 So my father, when he was 59 years old, he was the CEO of a company that was doing kind of okay, but he was unfulfilled. And he sold everything that he owned. He sold his house, he sold his furniture, he sold his suits, he sold his cutlery on eBay. And he bought a motorcycle with a sidecar. And he left on what would end up being a 12-year trip around the world. So he was homeless by choice. He had no cellphone bill, no mortgage, no storage unit back at home. He literally, his biggest expense was gas. Okay. And he was an adventurer. He called it the timeless ride. And it was this incredible, I mean, he built a big following. He was a cool dude. I missed him as his daughter. Right?
2:16 Speaker 01 And so when I got pregnant with my daughter, I asked him to come to Sacramento where I live to be there for the birth of my child. And so he decided to pause the trip and he came to Sacramento for three months. And he shows up and we went for walks every single morning and we would talk about parenthood. Well, what do I do? How do I be a good parent? And I would not tell him the name that I had chosen for my unborn child. Because you know, like if they don't like the name, it ends up, they give you feedback about it. But if you wait till they're born and you say, this is the name, no one complains at that point. They're like, what a beautiful name. So we were doing that. We didn't want to tell anyone the name.
2:59 Speaker 01 So he made up a name that was the placeholder name for her. So that we wouldn't be referring to the unborn child as it. And the name that he came up with was Violetta. And I have no idea where he got this name. We're not Italian. You know, I'd never heard the name before, but he's like, so when Violetta gets here? And he would talk about Violetta. And so then my child is born. Her name is Eleanor. She's beautiful. He's a great grandpa. And after the three month period, he decides it's time to go back to his trip. So he flies back to Switzerland where he had left his bike. And he lands in the airport and he realizes that he doesn't want to travel anymore. The second he lands in the airport, he has the thought, what am I doing here?
3:43 Speaker 01 And he gets back on the plane and he's back in Sacramento 24 hours later. And he says, I want to be a family man now. I'm done with my adventures. I want to be a grandpa. And I am so excited. I am crying. My mom is crying. And he was in a long distance relationship with my mother for these 12 years. And so now the family's all back together. I'm going to have my grandparents, like life is amazing. And two days later, he dies of an aortic dissection, which is basically like a heart attack. He drops dead in five minutes.
4:19 Speaker 01 That became the catalyst for my downward spiral, okay, into alcoholism and addiction. I start drinking a bunch. I mean, I had everything that I ever wanted, and then suddenly I lost it all overnight. So I spend the next year torching my life to the ground, basically. And a year later, my husband and I break up because he doesn't even recognize me anymore. And the morning that we break up, I go for a walk. Well, actually, I wanted to go to the gym because I was like, I gotta work out. You know, you have the feeling like you don't want to feel the feelings, and so you go to the gym to work them out. Well, I get in the car and the car won't start. So I'm like, I gotta get my bike. So I get on my bicycle and the bike has a flat.
5:02 Speaker 01 So then I'm like, okay, let me use my husband's bike. I get on his bike and the seat is broken. I can't sit on it. And if I believed in God, which I did not, I was a lifelong atheist, I would have thought, God is telling you not to go, right? Like, this is a sign. Like, stay where you are, whatever. But I didn't. I was just frustrated that all the things were broken. And I was like, what the hell is going on? I'm so upset. And so I decide to go for a walk. And I had not gone on this walk since my dad died, because that was the walk that I would go on with my dad. And I was like, too emotional. I had spent the year trying to avoid grief with drinking and working out and all these other things, right? So I go on the walk and I call my best friend and I say, my husband and I just broke up. My life is over. I don't know what's going on. And my friend says, what do you feel?
5:47 Speaker 01 And I said, I just feel like I miss my dad. And they say, well, what would your dad say? And I said, he wouldn't say anything. He would just do something to let me know that everything is gonna be okay. And at that exact second, as I was saying those words, I looked down at the ground and there is brand new graffiti that has never been there before, and it just said, Violetta.
6:14 Speaker 00 Wow.
6:14 Speaker 01 And that was it. I literally, I'm getting goosebumps just telling this. I've told the story like a thousand times and I still get goosebumps thinking about it. I fell to my knees and I knew in that moment that there was some kind of higher power out there. Like that was not a coincidence. That was a sign. And I didn't know what God or what I believed in. I just knew there was something. And that was, and I said, and I put my hands like this because I had seen it on TV. And I prayed, I said, God, I will never question if you exist again. And that was, that, that is true. I have never questioned if there's a higher power since then. Now, I didn't know what higher power I believed in, but I went on a mission. I got sober. That was the moment I
6:58 Speaker 01 decided to get sober. And then I went to divinity school and I started studying religion and spirituality. And I went to a different worship service every weekend to learn how different people worship. And I became a death doula. So I sit with the dying and I volunteer as a homeless hospice death doula where I sit with homeless people on hospice who are dying. So I can be with them at the threshold to the next life, whatever that thing is. And my entire life has changed in an incredible way. And, and that is actually the catalyst for this leadership book called Surrender to Lead, because when I, when I suddenly believed in something higher than
7:40 Speaker 01 myself, my leadership style changed dramatically. And the results that I were getting suddenly exploded. And I knew that there was something here I had to dig into. I had to research. I had to understand like, what has changed? And how does this work? And how can I share this with other people?
7:59 Speaker 00 Incredible. Well, first of all, thank you for telling that story. It's powerful in so many different ways, because we can see the, the love and connection that you have with your family and your father. We can see the, the hurt that you experienced. But this one moment seemed to turn everything around. And now it makes a lot more sense looking at everything that you've done since then, because it sounds like there was a, a deep, a deep search for meaning and understanding. Because at, at that moment, something changed. You became a believer in what you weren't sure in that moment. And I'd like to explore, especially being a death doula, what did you learn from the dying?
8:40 Speaker 01 Hmm, that's a great question.
8:44 Speaker 01 What I did learn and continue to learn every, I mean, the reason that I feel so called to this death doula work is because it is the most present that I am capable of being is in the moments when I'm sitting with the dying. I spend a lot of time, and obviously everyone does, thinking about the future and thinking about the past. You know, what am I trying to achieve? What am I going to do next? How am I doing? How did I do? Was it okay? And it's a lot of self-centered contemplation. And when I am sitting with someone who is dying, there is nothing more profound than that. And it doesn't even make sense, and I don't
9:28 Speaker 01 feel called to think about myself in those moments. I am just being with that person, and I'm focused on them, and it is totally selfless. And so I really like that feeling. And I don't get that feeling enough in my day-to-day life. I am also not afraid of death, like how I used to be, because now I know, like, there's gotta be something after here. So like, that'll be interesting to see what that is. So I think Americans are also really uncomfortable with the whole idea of death. What my dad was a French man. And what was really interesting is when he died, the response I got from American friends and family was very different from the response I got from French friends and family. Americans
10:11 Speaker 01 were very like awkward talking about it, didn't want to intrude. They gave me space. It was very confusing interactions with the French. They surrounded me. They came to me. They wanted to tell stories that, you know, they were all in with me. And I think we have this, this thing in America where death is taboo. And so we don't want to talk about it. We don't want to address it. And I think a lot of people in their last moments are left alone. And so, you know, my very first volunteer work in this field was UC Davis in the No One Dies Alone program. There are people who are on death's door that don't have any friends and family. And so volunteers will sit in shifts with them. So there's someone in their room. So in the moment that they pass, they are not alone. And that,
10:56 Speaker 01 it just allows me to be present. And that's work I need to do on a daily practice in a daily way, is practice being present much more. When I am present, I show up much better. But it is hard to do.
11:09 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's very hard to do. And I think one of the things that I'm taking from this personally is that we can shift, it's possible to shift from the fear of death to thinking about it from a lens of curiosity. So shifting from fear to curiosity, that's more empowering. We're not afraid of curiosity. We want to explore it. And that's what you were doing. You were there, sitting on death's door with this person that you may or may not know or have a relationship with, just to be present in the moment. And I think that the two words that kept on coming up that I want to explore is presence and the profound. You talked about it being very profound. Now, let's explore the profundity of that moment.
11:51 Speaker 00 Because I know that no matter who you are, what culture you have, there is a lot of reverence around death. But the word you used was profound, and I'm interested in exploring why you chose that word.
12:04 Speaker 01 We are all searching for meaning, regardless of your belief system, right? I believe that people want to have purpose and they want to have meaning in their lives. They want to fulfill an inner thing that needs to be fulfilled, whatever that is. And it's very different for other, for different people. And in moments of death, the reason that that is profound is because we are at the end of our time in trying to figure out if we have fulfilled that thing. Have we found the meaning? Did we do it? Were we successful or not? And looking back, getting perspective, it's, it takes us out of the day to day.
12:46 Speaker 01 You know, the irritation I have with someone showing up to a Zoom call late and the thing I, you know, I forgot. My daughter forgot to put her shoes on and we go to school and we show up and she's got no shoes on in the car. I'm like, well, how could you forget your shoes, right? These are not profound moments, but this, we spend a lot of time in those moments. And so to be able to zoom out, and I think as leaders in business, I mean, this, what I do is we, at Culture Partners, we help leaders drive results and Getting out of the day to day fires that need to be put out and tapping into what allows people to find meaning? How do we fulfill each other? How can we be present with one another?
13:29 Speaker 01 Where is the depth of this experience? That actually outperforms with the way we usually try and get stuff, stuff done, which is, what do we got to do next? What am I going to do next? What am I going to achieve today? You know?
13:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's so true. And first of all, don't edit yourself on my show. You can say shit if you want to. Okay?
13:51 Speaker 00 So that's the first thing. And I, I really like the, the idea of searching for meaning. That's crucial. We're, we are all doing it, whether consciously or subconsciously. And we spend our lives searching for it. And then even if we kind of get it, or we think we have it, we wonder whether or not it was real, or whether or not it's enough. And so for us, as we live our lives searching for meaning, you spend a lot of time with people who are at the end of their life. So what have you seen from their perspective? Do they feel as though they found it?
14:24 Speaker 01 It depends, you know? I mean, some people, yes, other people, no. There's one interesting reflection or story I had was with someone in the No One Dies Alone program. Usually the people in the No One Dies Alone program are either homeless people, or they're immigrants, or you know, there's a reason why they don't have any friends and family around them. And the reason usually is pretty straightforward and logical. And this one particular person that I saw in the room was an award winning physicist
15:02 Speaker 01 and professor that had invented a whole host of things that, I mean, had this incredibly successful career, was well known as an expert in their field, technical expertise. And they had a family and the family wasn't there. They had children, they had a wife, and those people were not there in the room. And so I didn't know why they weren't in the room. I don't get that kind of background, you know? So I'm sitting there and this person was unconscious, so I didn't get to talk to them. But I, I had their chart, I understood, you know, who they were. And I got to sit there and contemplate.
15:45 Speaker 01 Why this person at the end of their life, who was so wildly successful, didn't have their family in the room? And my go-to belief in the moment was they had done so much for their career that they had neglected their family and therefore the family was not interested in showing up for them. And that was my belief and I was thinking that for the first hour. And then I just started to make up a different story. And the difference, and my belief was if this person could wake up and say, would they do it differently? They would, you know? And then I realized like, how silly of me to make that assumption. Maybe this person was so fulfilled in the contribution that they made to science that they were willing to give up the relationship with their family. And maybe they would be really proud
16:30 Speaker 01 and fulfilled with the choices that they made. Because not everyone is motivated the same way that I am, right? And we often have to figure out this balance between our family life and our work life. And the reality is I came to to to remove judgment of that person based on the made-up stories that I had concocted in my head about them. And I realized that we're all making choices all the time. You know, we're all making choices about the give and take. Like, I'm a keynote speaker. I have to travel a lot for work. I share custody with my ex-husband of my daughter and sometimes I have to lose time with my daughter to go do a keynote. And that's been really hard for me to balance the devotion to my career
17:15 Speaker 01 versus the devotion to my child. And which which one should I do? Should I give up the success I've built and the career that I want for more time with my child? And sometimes the answer to that is yes and sometimes the answer to that is no. This last weekend, I got to take her with me to a keynote in DC. And we spent the weekend there and we had this incredible time. And when I did the keynote, not only did she get to watch me onstage, she got to see me do a news interview for the book. I was on Great Day Washington. So we went backstage at a studio. And then at the end of my keynote, I had her run up onstage and she got to stand onstage in a room with 300 women. And I realized, you know, there is no right answer about, should I do this or should I do that?
18:00 Speaker 01 It is a balancing act. And the role model that I am being for my child. Is going to instill certain beliefs in what's possible for her. And I like that, you know, and when I'm not with her. That's hard and you know, suffering is part of life and I'm not doing it perfectly. And I don't always have the answers and I won't always have the answers. But this is the grappling of the daily decisions that we're making every day. And it's hard to be a human, you know? We don't always know what the right answer is. And that is interesting. That's the shit of life that we're in the mix with, you know? Every single day trying to figure it out. So I'm giving myself grace, you know? I'm giving myself grace with that.
18:45 Speaker 00 Yes, yes. And I think the, the first thing that comes to mind is just gratitude for saying shit. Yes, be yourself. So thank you.
18:54 Speaker 01 You know, my, my first TEDx talk was called how to get people to give a shit. And I got a lot of shit for that title.
19:05 Speaker 01 So now I've got, I've got PTSD on cursing. I appreciate the invitation.
19:10 Speaker 00 That's so funny. I think with, with what you just said, though, it's, it's powerful, but it's also scary. It's empowering and terrifying at the same time. Because when it comes to the meaning of life, we can recognize that we have our circumstances. We have our responses, our activities, our outcomes, all of those things. But then you can interpret those things however you want. Because going back to the story of the physicist, you, you came up with a really logical story of, hey, maybe he gave everything to science and nothing to his family. So the relationship is fractured. He would probably do it differently. Or, hey, you know what? He sacrificed time with his family because he thought it was so important to give this to the world. And maybe both he and his family appreciate that.
19:55 Speaker 00 And maybe they are afraid of seeing that transition from life to death. And they didn't feel comfortable being there. And the thing is, there's no real right or wrong answer. This is what our role is, is in our life, is to give meaning and color to our life. And so as I think about with school, we're tested and there's always a right answer. And then we get into life and we're an adult and then there's no real right answer. We have to create the test and grade the test. And now life gets confusing. And so for you, when you think about meaning and purpose as it relates to you, how do you define it?
20:32 Speaker 01 Well, so let me just say one thing going before I answer that question. With school, I loved math because there was a right answer and a wrong answer. And I hated English and history because everything could be up for interpretation. And it's how do you read it? What do you think the poem is about? And I'm like, I don't know. Tell me what it is about, you know? Tell me the it's either three or four. Which one is correct? So black and white thinking is my comfort zone. And I am growing into being OK with the gray. And being OK with there not being necessarily right answer or wrong answer. And that's where the meaning is coming for me to answer the question now is is not having to know.
21:13 Speaker 01 Like, I really wanted to find a religion that was my religion. When I started to believe in God, it was like, great. Let me start going to a church every Sunday that feels like the denomination that is right for me. Is it Christianity? Like, OK, let's assume it's Christianity. Now, which one, which kind of Christianity? Am I a Catholic? Am I Protestant? Am I Lutheran? Like, what? And I went to all these places. And, you know, ultimately, I wish I was born Jewish is where I landed, but I wasn't. So I'm going back to Christianity because it's just a continuation of Judaism, let's say. And then, but every single religion had people running it that were making human decisions that I didn't like. I mean, I couldn't find the one that felt perfect.
21:58 Speaker 01 And I think that's why I ended up with, you know, unclear, none, you know? I'm I am I am a spiritual person that deeply believes in a higher power. And I think ultimately, every single religion is about right. They're all about right. You know, there isn't one that's right and then one that's wrong. And so where that leaves me is in finding meaning and how can I serve that higher power? Whatever it is. Instead of trying to understand what it is, how can I just get really comfortable with the mystery of? You know, the more I the more confused I am about it, the more of a mystery it feels like to me, the closer I am to it.
22:39 Speaker 01 Because I'm not trying to put it in a box and label it and say, this is what it is. And this is what it isn't. And I have decided and I have labeled it and I have named it. And that's not a higher power. That's a lower power. That's me putting it down here and explaining it, right? So it's a mystery. And being comfortable about that mystery is part of it. Going back to my dad who left on this 12 year trip around the world. Two of his daughters disowned him. Refused to speak to him ever again because of his choice to go on this adventure. They said he was squandering their inheritance on a joyride. And they said that he was being irresponsible and they thought he was stupid. I supported his decision to go on this trip. I had a different response, you know?
23:26 Speaker 01 He inspired a bunch of people on that journey, right? He, by the end of his life, he had thousands of people going to his website every day that were like, wow, this person is living their dream and, but he sacrificed his family relationships to be able to live that life. What do I think would, I know that he would have kept going on the trip, knowing what the outcome was, because that's what he ultimately did. But there was nothing more painful to him than the fact that he lost communication with his two daughters. So these are the life decisions we have to make every day, you know? Do I move, do I go left or do I go right? Do I say this or do I say that? Do I prioritize this or do I prioritize that? And trying to grapple with that is the joy of living. But there it is. That's what we're doing every day.
24:11 Speaker 00 And let's latch on to this word, though, the joy of living. Because I think the exact same thing that you just said, recognizing that every decision comes with collateral damage in some kind of circumstance, there's no perfect way of doing this. It's our job to create meaning in our life. And one person can find meaning in something that is completely meaningless to somebody else. And so you use the word joy and I think other people would use the word existential dread. So how did you get to that point where you could find joy in getting comfortable with the confusion and mystery of life? Every year I swear that I'm going to get ahead of holiday shopping. This year it started with a Quince cashmere sweater that I bought for myself. It was so soft, so well made.
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26:46 Speaker 01 I think joy is a confusing word, the way that I used it, because sometimes the joy of living, as I described it, can be very sad. And it can be very hard and it can feel like suffering. And when I was drinking, the main reason I was drinking was because I didn't want to feel bad. Drinking made me not feel bad. And I was avoiding grief, I was avoiding sadness, I was avoiding fear, you know? Booze made all that go away. I felt great when I was drinking. And that is because I believed that if I felt bad, then I was bad. And I didn't want to feel bad because I didn't want to feel bad about myself. And in sobriety, what I have learned is that being sad is
27:30 Speaker 01 Only possible because it is the opposite of being happy and without sadness, I wouldn't have happiness and therefore I get to feel both. That is what the human experience has been designed to be. A circle, you know, a wide range of emotions, a spectrum of experiences. And those experiences will lead you to hold certain beliefs about the world and those beliefs are what drive you to take action and those actions will get you a result, you know, so that trying to navigate that and figure out your path along that, I mean, I think that's, that is where the meaning making happens.
28:12 Speaker 00 Hmm. And I think this is a great opportunity for us to explore the word surrender. Um, because when you think about folks who are reading your books, who, who explore your work, they're often leaders and let's, let's come up with other synonyms. They are leaders, they are high achievers, they are winners and winners never surrender. Isn't that what they always say? So what, help us to understand where, how you landed on that word and, and the power behind it. And also what do people most frequently misunderstand when it comes to surrender?
28:50 Speaker 01 So I work out at a CrossFit gym and it's all military people. I am the weakest person there, but it's fun because they like to push me. And I went into the gym one day when I was trying to decide on the title of the book and I said, Hey guys, what's the first thing you think of when you hear the word surrender? And they all just started shouting, never surrender. No, right? Waving the white flag, quitting, I will never surrender. And the Navy SEALs have a saying, which is control the controllables. There is a hidden corollary. There is a message in that saying that is not spoken out loud, but it is implied, which is control the controllables and stop trying to control the uncontrollables. That
29:33 Speaker 01 is surrender. To surrender is to stop trying to control the things that are outside of your control, which winners and leaders and people of all types do all the time, especially when you have a title. Of director, or manager, or chief. It is implied that your job is to control everything. And you're, you're going to be telling everyone what to do. And outcomes rest on your shoulders. And so what leaders will often do is they go in and they try and tell people what to do because they're trying to get a result. And it's the action trap. They get into this mindset of I've got to do more to get a result. And that action trap is the endless cycle of activity that feels like progress,
30:17 Speaker 01 but doesn't actually move the needle on results. And ultimately, it wears you down and everyone else down. Now, surrender is acceptance of reality on reality's terms. And understanding what you can control and what you can't control. The Navy SEALs are actually experts in surrender. Right? Because when the chopper is going down in enemy territory, they're not sitting around being like, whose fault is this? What happened here? I don't want the chopper to go down right now. That is trying to control the uncontrollables. They are showing up in the way that they need to show up to respond and adapt in the moment. So here's the reality when it comes to leadership. Whether you're in a business, whether you're leader of, of a community group, whether it's your family,
31:02 Speaker 01 you cannot get people to do what you want them to do just because you tell them to do it. That is a reality that people need to accept. People will not act in alignment with the direction just because it's the process or it's a procedure. People will act in alignment with what they believe. If they believe in it, they're going to do it. If they don't, they're not going to. So as a leader, to surrender to lead, and what the book is really about, is how to motivate people to take the action you need them to take by inspiring them to hold the right beliefs that align with those actions to get a result. And the way that you shift people's beliefs, the way you inspire action is not by giving them direction.
31:47 Speaker 01 It's by creating experiences for them that will change their beliefs. Because all of our beliefs come from experiences. And you can control the experiences you create for people. That is what you do control. So it is a path to results.
32:04 Speaker 01 Through radical acceptance of reality and human nature that requires you to give up the delusion of control, which you never had in the first place and embrace the idea of surrender as the fastest path to achieving the results you want to achieve.
32:21 Speaker 00 That's so interesting. There's a lot here because when I think about the story that you told about you recovering from alcoholism and how you used it to numb your pain, I feel like a lot of high achievers are addicted to activity, whether or not it is productive.
32:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:41 Speaker 00 To avoid the feeling that they are unworthy. And it's a really interesting corollary here because it's almost like there is an addiction to activity, but then there's also an addiction to feeling or believing that you are not enough as you are, which makes the concept of surrender feel really, really uncomfortable for people. And so when it comes to these beliefs, let's say there's somebody who's a high achiever, who has that never surrender mentality. Let's think, how do we, how do we get them to adopt this type of belief? Because it is the polar opposite of what it is that they have been taught their whole life.
33:23 Speaker 01 And I am one of those people. I am a high achiever who is addicted to work and activity as much as I was addicted to alcohol at one point, because when I would have a difficult experience, I thought, let me just get, let me just do some work. Let me check my emails because it would distract me from the emotional hardship I was carrying in that moment. So I can relate to this so much. And there is a model in the book that we talk about, which is how to adopt this mindset of surrender. And it's the SHIFT model. It's an acronym to shift from command and control to surrender. And so it starts with S, which is stop fighting reality. There's so much that we wish was different than it is.
34:08 Speaker 01 I wish the goals were lower. I wish the administration hadn't implemented this new policy. I wish that the team was more, you know, there's all of these finger pointing and blame game and dwelling on the thing that is reality that we wish was different, that is just a waste of our time and energy. So S is stop fighting reality. Just accept reality on reality's terms.
34:32 Speaker 01 H is have faith. We need to be able to step into faith that everything will work out the way that it's going to work out. Faith in the higher power. Now, let's say you don't have a higher power, which I totally acknowledge and I have no judgment about because I did not have a higher power for 37 years. You can still have faith in something bigger than yourself. Have faith in the team that they will be able to accomplish something beyond what your brain is capable of coming up with. Have faith in, you know, the mission of the organization. Have faith in your purpose. Have faith in whatever it is you choose to have faith. If you don't know what to have faith in, ask yourself the question, what do I believe is
35:15 Speaker 01 the source of all good? And then have faith in that, whatever your answer to that is. So S, stop fighting reality. H, have faith. I, then identify what's yours. Control the controllables, right? What do I have influence over that I can control right now? Stop focusing on the things outside of your control. Focus on what you can control. And F is free yourself from fear. Ask yourself the question, if I was completely selfless, I had no self-interest, I was coming from a place of love and not fear, what might I do in this situation? Just as a thought experiment. And you might come up with some ideas of how to move forward that otherwise would not have occurred to you, because oftentimes we're in that fear space,
35:58 Speaker 01 we don't even realize it. And then finally, T is take the next right action, which we stole from Buddhism. The next right action is like the next right thing to do. And it is different from the action trap I talked about earlier, because the action trap is let me just take more action. Let me just do more, right? With the shift model, we have focused our thinking to a place where we now have the power to discern the next singular right action, which is the experience I want to create for other people.
36:28 Speaker 00 Hmm. Oh, this is great. And I love how tangible this is because when it comes to belief, when it comes to surrender, a lot of times it can feel very ephemeral, just a nebulous. But now you've given folks an actual action plan that is healthy, that they could actually use. And I know for the high achievers who are reading the book, they would really appreciate it. So we have stop fighting the real, have faith, identify what's yours, free yourself from fear, and take the next, the right next action. And I want to talk about the F here. Because when we're thinking about fear, I like the explore, the exploration of the counterfactual, where's it, we're saying, okay, I feel the fear and therefore I'm not
37:10 Speaker 00 going to do this thing. Then we think, okay, hypothetically, if I didn't feel fear, what would I do? So I think that's a good first step. Let's explore it a little bit deeper because I recognize that this is the place where a lot of people get hung up. So when you think about fear and how most people think about the topic, what is it that people misunderstand the most about fear that holds them back from accepting this belief?
37:36 Speaker 01 I believe that all fear is rooted in one of two things. You're either afraid of not getting something that you want, or losing something that you have. Both of those have to do with self-centered thinking. And when I say self-centered, break that word up, it's centered on the self. It, fear is focused on what I want, what I will lose, what I have, what I need. And so that is thinking about I. When we free ourself from fear, we're moving the focus outward and we are saying, what's bigger than me? What's perhaps
38:18 Speaker 01 more important than me? How can I, the opposite of fear is faith. Another opposite of fear is love, depending on your belief system. But let's take love for an example. Love is the way St. Thomas Aquinas defined it is to will the good of another. So if you were to will the good of another in this moment, rather than focus on your own will, your self-will,
38:43 Speaker 01 What would that look like? And when you do that thought experiment, it just gets you thinking in a new way. And then suddenly, maybe the thing that is about the other person becomes better. For example, I was, like I told you, I was in DC this last weekend and I got a news hit. So I got to be on the news promoting my book. And I had my daughter with me and I was really excited for her to see me on TV and be in a studio. And we could have taken a lot of pictures and we show up at the studio. And the first thing they said is, there's a press conference that's going to go live at 3pm, which is when the show starts, you're probably going to get bumped. I'm so sorry. You know, you could stick around and see what happens, but you're probably not going to be on the news.
39:25 Speaker 01 And fear and the way that my brain operates on default is, that's not what I want. That's disappointing. I'm upset, I'm angry, that's unfair. I want my daughter to have this experience. I want to be on TV. I want, I want, I want, right? And it would have all been about me. But because I have written this book and I am living this stuff and I am practicing it more daily, I said, it's all good. I mean, I surrender. Stop fighting reality. There is a press conference. There's nothing I can do about it, right? Perhaps the reason that I need to be bumped is because something else is more important for the people watching this program to hear right now. Great, like that's, I have faith that this is all going to work out according to the way that it is going to do.
40:10 Speaker 01 I can identify what's mine, which is I can choose to have a reaction of calm. I can free myself from fear and focus on willing the good end of another, which is this isn't about me. And I can take the next right action, which is to say, no problem, have a seat. I did my nails in the waiting room. I chatted with my daughter and we had fun. And you know what happened? The press conference got delayed and I got to be on TV. I got everything that I wanted. And the only difference was I didn't throw a fit between when they told me that there was a press conference and when I got to be on TV. I got to have a happy and calm 30 minutes of waiting. That's what the surrender mindset does for you. The amount of agita stress and what that would have demonstrated to my daughter if
40:55 Speaker 01 I had been like, this is outrageous. I flew here from California. What do you mean there's a press conference? Well, we better pre-take, you know, all of that would have been a waste of time and energy and negative. So that's surrender to lead, you know?
41:08 Speaker 00 That's amazing. That's amazing. I think there are a lot of other people who would have approached it in a different way and they would have said, well, if I'm not going to get on the news for my book, if I throw a big enough fit and make the fit newsworthy, then I will appear on some news.
41:25 Speaker 01 That's a good tactic. Brilliant. That's probably how I would have done it five years ago, actually.
41:31 Speaker 00 I, this is, hearing the, the model and learning more about the book, I'm also seeing the connection to your role as a death doula, because going back to my notes on what you said, you said, when you were there, going back to presence, you were fully present in the moment and you were not self-centered. You were just focused on that person. And it's almost like that was an extreme way, not extreme in a bad way, but like a paradigm shifting way for you to actually, in a meaningful way, experience being number one, present and feel what it felt to be not self-centered. Because I think a lot of people, when you say, don't be self-centered,
42:15 Speaker 00 they might be able to have a cognitive understanding of what those, that string of words means, but they don't have the experience of being fully present, not centered on themselves. And if we think about it through a Buddhist, a lot of the eastern traditions, this is kind of like the ego death that they're trying to achieve, right?
42:34 Speaker 01 Absolutely. Yeah, you got it. That's exactly right. And we spend so much of our time thinking about ourselves. I mean, for your listeners right now, this is a fun exercise that you can do. Set your alarm to chime every hour and on that hour, write down what you're thinking about when it chimes and see how many of those hours you're thinking about yourself. When I started this journey six years ago and my mentor was suggesting that I might think about myself a lot and perhaps I should think about others, I remember I literally said, of course I think about myself all day long. I am me. What else is there to think about?
43:15 Speaker 01 Like it didn't even occur to me that there that I could think about others like a lot, a lot, a lot. I just thought, well, because I'm me, I think about me and everyone thinks about them. But that's actually not true. That's just what self centered people do. I was really, really selfish and that's, that's what alcoholism is. Alcoholism is a very selfish perspective and I was stuck in that mind trap. And so to break out of that, I think what called me to the death doula is I realized how much of a relief it can be to not think about myself and how meaningful it is. And meaningful lives are not necessarily happier lives, right? There is not a correlation between being happy and having meaning.
43:59 Speaker 01 But it's like being a parent, right? My life became way more meaningful. It's maybe less happy because it's freaking hard to be a parent. It is super freaking hard, but I will take that meaning over that happiness. The freedom to go on a trip whenever I want to go out to bars at night to do whatever I was doing before I had children. I will give that up every day again for the meaningful moments that I get to have with my child. So it's not necessarily easier or happier, but it's more profound to bring it back to where we were.
44:32 Speaker 00 Hmm. When, when you think about everything that you have covered in your thought leadership and your study in the books, everything and the podcast, of course, I want to make sure we get mention of those. If there was just one lesson that you wanted your daughter to take with her, what would that lesson be?
44:52 Speaker 01 Hmm.
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46:54 Speaker 01 I want her to feel that she has permission to do whatever it is that she needs to do to go on that journey. You know that phrase, know thyself. I want her to know thyself. I want her to to figure it out. The other day we were walking and she goes, Mom, I want to join the air force. I said, great.
47:19 Speaker 01 Two months ago, she said, Mom, I want to go to Berkeley when I grow up. I said, great. And then, you know, six months ago, she said, Mom, I don't want to go to college. I said, great. I don't want other people. We spend so much of our lives in fear of people's judgment, in performance mode, trying to figure out how to be accepted, to feel like we are enough because we have shown up in the way that people will expect us to show up. And I want her to have permission to go explore whatever it is she needs to go explore to be on her journey. Whether that leads her to a belief in a higher power or not, that's her journey to be on, you know, and I want her to, to,
48:03 Speaker 01 I surrender to the outcome that she is going to create for herself. And that I think is the, the lesson for me is like not being attached to the outcome. As leaders especially, and you know, the system has been built for us to be attached to the outcome. Because we have quarterly results and earnings calls and investor expectations and board meeting check-ins. And all of that is about, did you achieve the outcome? You know, at Culture Partners, we're a pretty large consulting firm. We're private equity backed and we had, we have our private equity overlords that tell us this is the goal for next year, right? You need to achieve this much revenue. And last year, we had astronomical growth that any bank would be thrilled for us to have achieved.
48:48 Speaker 01 But it, it was just under what the private equity firm had asked us to achieve. And so it was positioned as a failure, you know, like you didn't hit the goal. It's like, but wait, we had a hundred percent year over year growth. Are you telling us it was a bad year? It's all about perspective, you know? And so that perspective to me is important to bring into every day and every decision. So for Ellie, I may have a perspective about whether I want her to join the Naval Academy or go to college or become a plumber, but that perspective is just my judgment. I want her to be able to tap into whatever it is she needs to tap into to figure out what is that she needs to do. And that's, that's how I want to be as a leader too.
49:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's powerful. That is powerful. And when is it hard for you to live up to these aspirations or ideals?
49:36 Speaker 01 Every single day. This is not natural to me. I am not like expert in surrender now, just because I wrote a book about it. You you teach what you most need to learn. I need to learn this. I wake up every morning thinking, what am I gonna do? How am I going to achieve? What do I want? And then I have to do a practice where I change my thoughts so that I am not doing that. And and that is that is a daily practice. I don't think it'll ever become natural for me to wake up and be selfless and surrender and feel like I am just zen, you know? I am not Ram Dass. I am never going to be a spiritual guru for anyone. I am going to be a learner of this for the rest of my life.
50:20 Speaker 01 But that's why I'm writing about it, because I want to absorb everything that I can and learn how to be better and better at it.
50:26 Speaker 00 Amazing. This is so good. So good, in fact, that we need to bring in a ringer. Simone, this is your time to shine, my friend.
50:34 Speaker 02 I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here, because I had the the opposite experience. So back in the day when I was twenty two years old, it was eighteen years old or sixteen years old. Um, I I was a person of faith. And I and then my mom got sick. My mom had cancer and I was having faith that she was going to recover. I had been chosen for internships in Italy as a designer. So I was planning everything, but suddenly my mom got sick. I had to take care of her. But I said, no problem. I have I have faith. So then she passed away. And as she passed away, I couldn't go to my internship. So everything fell apart.
51:19 Speaker 02 Then it it happened exactly the opposite that happened to you. I was a person of faith and suddenly I was not a person of faith anymore in in one minute as you as you as you told your experience.
51:34 Speaker 01 Wow.
51:34 Speaker 02 And and that um I took control over my life and said, okay, brother, no one is helping you. There's no one helping you in in another dimension. There's no higher power. So do you things with your hands. Otherwise, uh you will just uh surrender to chaos or to chance or to anything that you that is not doing anything good or bad for you. It's just random uh things will happen to you. So I had to make an effort of not surrendering, of doing the opposite. But I love the idea of surrender. So how with
52:14 Speaker 02 my mindset and my experience, can I open my mind to surrender to the idea of surrender?
52:22 Speaker 01 This is so rich. What a great. That is totally a ringer. I love that you said bring it in the ringer. That is the ringer right there. So can I ask you a couple of questions before I answer yours? Okay, what do you believe is the source of all good?
52:36 Speaker 02 Oh, nature.
52:38 Speaker 01 Nature. Okay. So the sort of you're talking about the earth's natural way of being, right?
52:48 Speaker 02 Yes.
52:48 Speaker 01 The way that the earth has formed and we in that earth exist within this this thing that is beyond our ability to control it, right?
52:56 Speaker 02 Yes.
52:57 Speaker 01 Okay, and
53:01 Speaker 01 I think you are surrendering.
53:04 Speaker 02 Okay.
53:04 Speaker 01 So let me just play devil's advocate to you.
53:10 Speaker 01 You stopped fighting reality. Let's go through the shift model, right? You were like, no one's gonna do this for me. No one has a plan for me. I gotta do this myself, right? So to fight reality would have been like, this is not fair. I don't, right? You were like, no one's gonna do this for me. I accept reality on reality's terms. You have faith. You do have a higher power because if nature is the thing that you believe is the source of all good, then that is something beyond your control, right? I'm not saying it's a god. I'm saying that you don't think that the world begins and ends with your power. There is something you exist within the larger natural order of things.
53:53 Speaker 01 That is, that is your source of all good. So. You've identified what is yours. You want to work with your hands. You want to control the controllables. And the freeing yourself from fear piece is you have things that you want to accomplish, right? What meaning are you creating in your life right now? What is, what is, what is the purpose of your life as you understand it?
54:16 Speaker 02 Well, I want, you know that one of the qualities I love the most of in people is um, respect for the weak. So I, I work every day to teach respect for the weak and that's what I do with Koami or with my podcast in Spanish. And every day, this is what I try to bring to the world. Uh, be making people aware that we have to have respect for the weak.
54:41 Speaker 01 Well, okay, so I know someone else who had a similar message for the world that lived about twenty, two thousand years ago. But putting that aside, that's love. To will the good of another, right? You are, respect for the weak has nothing to do with your self-interest, right? So to free yourself from fear is to focus on that purpose that you're creating. And you have taken the next right action. So I don't actually think you need to learn how to surrender. I feel like you have done it in the way that works for you. And I'm not here to change your mind about faith or higher powers or whatever. I honor the way that you have come to live your life and if it's working for you.
55:23 Speaker 01 Then it's working for you, but I see it as being a way of surrender. I, I think that you have fully embraced these concepts without perhaps the label. Of a god or a religion that you, you think it needs to be attached to, which I don't think it needs to be attached to.
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57:32 Speaker 02 Wow. Okay, thank you so much.
57:34 Speaker 00 That's so good. That is so good. And you know, the thing that I'm recognizing here, when we think about psychology, semantics and bias, there are biases that everybody has associated with certain terms. There are going to be biases around the word surrender. There are going to be biases around the terms, the term religion or anything associated with it. And it's interesting because I think it's a great shame that many people are not allowing themselves to to appreciate the world in this way because of some bias that they might have against some certain terms. So I think, for instance, I remember old school Batman. You know, the two face was one of the characters Harvey Dent.
58:19 Speaker 00 And so he would always have that coin, the ominous flipping of the coin. And it seems as though for him, with his mentality, he surrendered to fate. And so he was just like, whatever random chance happens, that's what it is. And it, I think back to Patrick McGinnis, the guy who invented the term FOMO and Fobo. So he, it was funny because he said he thinks Fobo was a better term. So fear of missing out versus fear of a better option. And he says, for a lot of life's decisions, they are really quite trivial. And so for him, he would just say, he would use his watch face. So if the minute hand was on one side, he would make one decision. If it's on the other side, he'd make another decision. So that's how he would make decisions when it's rather trivial.
59:04 Speaker 00 And so I think it's really interesting, especially when you widen your aperture of what a belief system really is. Because even if there was somebody who is an atheist, I feel like they are surrendering to, there is something there. Well, that was your path for a while. Was there anything that you, that was bigger than you in your mind prior to this shift?
59:27 Speaker 01 Alcohol. I mean, I I surrender to alcohol, right? And people surrender to things that are very counterproductive, counterproductive. Alcohol was my higher power. And for other people, that addiction to work, workaholism, can be a higher power. Control can be a higher power, ironically enough. And so, these things don't have to be positive. But when we, it's all about perspective. And when we direct our thinking in a particular way, we can make it positive. And so, I don't drink anymore. And I put my faith in what I believe to be my higher power, rather than putting my faith in booze, to make me feel better.
1:00:12 Speaker 00 This is powerful. This could be a game changer for people, because they, essentially, we have to recognize that we are always surrendering to something. But we don't recognize that we have a choice as to what it is that we surrender to. And so, we have to ask whether or not the thing that we are currently surrendering to is worthy of our surrender, or we should seek something that is more in alignment with our purpose.
1:00:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's a great point. We are surrendering, we are letting go, another word of saying surrender is to let go. We let go, sometimes we let go of our moral high ground, right? And when we steal the stapler from the office, you know, I'm letting go of my integrity right now to get what I want. Is that what you want to surrender to? Or do you want to surrender to? I'm not going to have the stapler, but I am going to hold on to my integrity. I'm going to let go of my need to have the stapler. I mean, this is a silly example. But every choice that we make is a surrender to the choice we didn't make.
1:01:12 Speaker 00 This is so good. Okay, last, last thing. I'm wondering, do you have any go to mantras or key phrases that you use when you're talking to yourself that serve as anchors or reminders of this mentality in tough situations?
1:01:31 Speaker 01 Yes, I am a transcendental meditator. I don't know if you guys know about transcendental meditation. The Beatles came, went to India and learned about transcendental meditation. So I learned that and I got a mantra from my teacher and do transcendental meditation. The mantra is a word that is meaningless. So I stick to that because when I have meaningless thoughts, it calms all the things down. Everything in my brain releases. It is a release. It's giving my brain a break. And so it is the lack of thoughts that is my mantra.
1:02:15 Speaker 01 That is where I spend my time because I spend a lot of time thinking. You know, what I need is a break from that.
1:02:22 Speaker 00 Hmm, that, how do you stop? Okay, so now this is personal Kwame, Kwame coaching here. Because I, it just is a constant, constant flow of thought. I've mentioned it so many times on the podcast, but I'm a journaler. I love journaling and so I use voice dictation to journal. So month to month, it's a constant reflection of the decisions, ideas, thoughts, hypotheses, jokes that I say to myself that I know I only would appreciate. You know, these little things. And it's usually, on average, over a hundred thousand words of thoughts. You know, for Perspective, I think, Finding Confidence in Conflict, my first book was about forty-four thousand words. You know, so, but I've come to enjoy it.
1:03:07 Speaker 00 I know sometimes it can get out of control and go in the wrong direction, but I've been doing a better job of controlling it. But turning it off isn't something that I've been able to do very well, even when I was trying to meditate. So I'd be interested to hear your journey.
1:03:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, I tried to meditate for many, many years and I thought I was just not a meditator for a long time because it felt like I was trying to control my thoughts. And that is the opposite of surrender, right? Oh, okay, I'm not supposed to think. Let me not think. Oh, there's a thought. I've messed up. I've got to not think again. And I am trying to then control the thoughts, which I have found to be impossible. With transcendental meditation, when you get a mantra, you're no longer trying to control the thoughts. You are going with the flow of what your brain does. So the way it works is you say the mantra in your mind and then you say the mantra again in your mind. And then maybe a thought comes and you start thinking and then you remember that you're not saying the mantra and you go back to the mantra.
1:04:04 Speaker 01 And with time, with practice, by the end of maybe the first 10 minutes, the thoughts have really kind of fallen away and the mantra is all that's left. And then eventually even the mantra goes away and that's when you have quote transcended. And that's when you have neither thoughts nor mantra and you're just present. And it is so different of an experience from the way that I show up in my day to day life and every single minute without the conscious decision to try and get into that headspace, I don't get there. So it became easy when I learned how to do transcendental meditation.
1:04:46 Speaker 01 All the other types of meditation approaches that I did before that, they quote, didn't work for me, but it's because I was trying to control my brain. And the brain is not controllable. I mean, you could have faith in your brain, right? No one understands how the brain works. That could be another thing to have faith in.
1:05:03 Speaker 00 Yes. Oh, this is powerful. Jessica, I really appreciate this. And before you go, I wanted to give you an opportunity to remind the listeners about the work that you do with Culture Partners, the books and the podcasts too, and how they can work with you for keynotes.
1:05:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, lovely. Thank you. So Culture Partners is a workplace culture consulting firm. We create clarity, alignment and accountability around your purpose, strategy and culture to get results. So if you want to work with us, go to culturepartners.com. And if you want to book me for a keynote, I have a website, which is jessicakriegel.com. And I also have a podcast called The CEO Daily Brief, which is a five minute daily podcast for leaders on, you know, what they need to know for the day to up their game.
1:05:50 Speaker 00 Amazing. Jessica, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
1:05:55 Speaker 01 Really appreciate you having me. You are a fantastic interviewer and Simone, it was a pleasure to meet you too. Thanks for coming in with that that ringer question. That was great.
1:06:03 Speaker 00 Such a good question. Thank you. Good. Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. And with um, I I love this. I love being able to go deep on this. I think this is the first time we we went a whole episode without saying the word negotiation. Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about a podcast I'm really excited about. It's called The Anxious Achiever and it's hosted by my good friend Maura Aron's melee and it's part of the Yap Media Network. Here on Big Swings Only, we're all about going after the big stuff. But anyone who's taken a real swing knows anxiety usually comes along for the ride. And honestly, nobody handles that better than Maura. Since 2019, her show has helped millions of listeners navigate stress, mental health, and the search for meaning through work.
1:06:47 Speaker 00 With personal stories, expert insights, and evidence-based tools, she tackles anxiety, perfectionism, ADHD, and psychological safety at work with guests ranging from the US Surgeon General to NFL and NBA stars. It's a top 10 management podcast and a Signal Award winner for Best Commute Podcast. And she's been a guest on our show too. If you're ready to take control of your anxiety and your life, you definitely want to check out The Anxious Achiever. Subscribe to The Anxious Achiever today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.
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