Pod Insights National Park After Dark Taken? Allagash Wilderness Waterway About this episode In August of 1976, twin brother Jim and Jack Weiner and their friends Chuck Rak and Charlie Flotz embarked on a two-week camping and canoeing trip to the Northwoods of Maine. Several days into their trip they experienced something they couldn’t explain– and it would be over a decade until the truth of that night truly came to light. Remembered as “The Allagash Four” the quartet has gone down in ufology history as one of the most compelling cases of alien abductions in US history. For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials:Instagram: @nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to this week’s partners! IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping. Acorns: Use our link or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today! Laundry Sauce: For 15% off your order, head to LaundrySauce.com/NPAD and use code NPAD. StoryWorth: Use our link to save $10 on your first purchase.
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Transcript 15,665 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:59 Danielle LaRock? Over time, we have seen repeated examples of people or ideas who have been labeled as crazy. People scoffed at the thought of the Earth not being the center of the universe. People disbelieved the existence of unseen organisms called germs, couldn't conceive of the possibility of space travel, and laughed at the idea that people would desire computers in their pockets one day. William Harvey, the first scientist to accurately describe blood circulation, published his theory in 1628, claiming that blood passed through the heart, not the liver, which was the 1,500-year-standing school of thought. He was criticized so strongly, his medical practice suffered, and he became a recluse,
1:41 Danielle LaRock? saying, "Much better is it oftentimes to grow wise at home and in private than by publishing what you have amassed with infinite labor to stir up tempests that may rob you of your peace and quiet for the rest of your days." Nowadays, we've made some big strides in opening our minds to various possibilities. And the scientific community in particular is hesitant to label something as truly impossible. The notion that we are alone in the universe seems to be one of those dated ideas, especially given the fact that numerous government officials have testified under oath regarding the existence of non-human biologicals. But still, abduction cases seem to be our new line in the sand.
2:23 Danielle LaRock? They are just a little too far-fetched for most to believe we can be plucked from Earth, studied, and placed back into our beds, or our cars, or our canoes. It almost goes without saying that not every account of sightings or alleged abductions can be taken seriously, but you can't help but wonder if some of those people are modern-day William Harveys just waiting for the rest of us to catch up.
2:51 Danielle LaRock? Welcome to National Park After Dark.
3:14 Danielle LaRock? I think I speak for every single person listening when I say we are so excited for an abduction story. Thank you. It's been a long time coming. It really has. I don't know if I've done one for like years. The last one I remember is Travis Walton. That was the one I was thinking of too. And I'm pretty sure I did that when I lived in Washington. Oh my God. Yes. We need, yes, thank you. We need this. Yeah, we all need it. In today's climate, we need an abduction story. Take us away. Get us away from here. Yeah, so we're doing an abduction story UFO case. And it is, there are so many of them out there. So there are so many stories to potentially cover, but it's really difficult to find
3:58 Danielle LaRock? the ones that align with, you know, the wilderness and outdoors and, you know, so. And this one fits the bill. Cool. But before we uh get into it, I guess the only thing that we want to say is it's the beginning of the holiday season and if you're looking for a gift for somebody and you're one of those people who are like, I don't want to give someone like a physical item, like I'm into experiences and uh things like that. You can give them the experience of a National Park After Dark Patreon subscription. Yes. Yeah, just head over to our Patreon account. Um, you can find that on our website. You can find it through our Instagram. If you go onto Patreon and just search National Park After Dark, we pop up right there and you can order a subscription for a friend.
4:43 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, so or yourself, you know, treat yourself, that whole thing. Okay, great. That's all we have to say. You know, when you're shopping and you're like, you know, who would love this? Me.
4:55 Danielle LaRock? And then you've you're at the end of the day and you're like, well, I still need to shop for my loved ones. I know. I have a running list going of uh the people that I actually give gifts to for the holiday season and I have two of them done so far and you were the first person that I got. I'm so excited. You're gonna be really excited.
5:17 Danielle LaRock? I'm so curious of what it is because you've been very secretive. Yeah, I don't want to spoil the surprise, um but it is yeah, not a physical uh item, that's for sure. Okay, anyways, UFOs. All right, let's. Yes, tell me an alien story. Okay. UFOs, abductions. The nightmares were getting worse. It was 1988 and for Jim Weiner, he spent most of that year unable to sleep. He was becoming increasingly more anxious each night, afraid of what he may experience when he went to bed. Nightmares isn't exactly the right term because that implies that someone is having bad dreams while asleep. And for Jim, he would have sworn he was awake for these experiences.
5:59 Danielle LaRock? They started some time ago, but weren't really causing a problem, aside from freaking Jim out, until his doctor started to get involved. Ten years prior, in 1978, Jim became injured following a freak accident. At the time, he was working as an electrician's apprentice and agreed To help a friend with some electrical work at a newly purchased home. Upon arrival, Jim opened a door he presumed held an electrical box and stepped inside. The small room that was meant to serve as a landing for a staircase leading to the basement had an issue, eh, big one. There were no stairs at all, so unknowingly Jim walked right in and fell straight down. Ouch. He landed in a seated position, and as a result of the traumatic compression on his spine, his brain stem was affected.
6:42 Danielle LaRock? He left the hospital with lower back issues and temporal lobe epilepsy, or TLE. He had managed his diagnosis well for years under the supervision of his doctors. Aside from causing seizures, TLE can result in other problems like body temperature dysregulation, olfactory issues, increased heart rate, and confusion with immediate time. But for the most part, Jim wasn't concerned about those side effects. What was plaguing him the most were the night terrors. He didn't say anything to anyone about them for a long time, until they started affecting his seizure activity by increasing the frequency in which he was having them. This change alerted his doctors to something amiss, and they pressed him on it. Repeatedly, Jim declined to go into any detail,
7:23 Danielle LaRock? brushing off their inquiries in favor of keeping his anxieties close to the chest. But after some time, the doctors gave him an ultimatum. Tell us what's going on, or find another care team. Not wanting to lose his providers, he spilled. It wasn't every night, but it had been happening on and off for years. And as of recently, they were becoming more intense and much more vivid. Jim described a typical experience. He would wake up at some point in the night and have an overwhelming sense that someone was in the room with him. He felt as if someone was trying to reach out and touch him, or pull the covers off of him. He would hear a flurry of voices, muffled just enough for him to not be able to understand the actual words, but loud enough and direct enough, he felt as if he was being spoken to.
8:08 Danielle LaRock? At times, he'd feel paralyzed, unable to move anything but his eyes. He'd also have vivid, reoccurring dreams that involved his twin brother Jack and their friends Charlie and Chuck. Jim would be lying on a table in a blinding white room, and the other three men would be sitting nearby, seemingly unbothered. Unphased and not helping Jim despite his mental pleas. Despite the striking similarities to sleep paralysis, Jim felt as if this was totally different. What he was experiencing was not sleep paralysis. Even though it seems like you're paralyzed, you can't move. You feel like someone's watching you, like all these different things. Yeah, it sounds very similar. He became so fearful of these experiences. Each night he'd make sure to lock his windows and sometimes even lock himself in his bedroom,
8:53 Danielle LaRock? believing he could stop whatever or whoever was doing this to him. So he felt it was like an outside person? Yes, yes. After providing the information to his doctors, more specifically his psychiatrist on his care team, he was promised that they would look into getting him in touch with some additional resources. As he was awaiting their recommendations, Jim was on the phone with Jack one afternoon. The two of them were close, as many twin siblings are, and Jack had called in to check in on how his brother's treatments were going. Until that point, Jim had said nothing to his brother about the night terrors and the horrible dreams. But perhaps emboldened by speaking about it to his doctors, Jim decided to open up to his brother. He started by saying he was having trouble sleeping.
9:37 Danielle LaRock? And when Jack asked if it had to do with his TLE, Jim elaborated. He told him of the voices, the paralyzing feelings and sensations of being watched or observed, the dreams in the brightly lit room, feeling helpless while his friends looked on. A beat of silence followed before Jack said something Jim was not expecting. The same things have been happening to me. Oh, that changes things. Within days, Jim's psychiatrist reached out to him with something else that was completely unexpected. The psychiatrist advised Jim to go to a nearby convention and seek out the help of one of their keynote speakers named Raymond Fowler. Raymond Fowler served as the Director of Scientific Investigations at MUFON,
10:21 Danielle LaRock? or the Mutual UFO Network. Wait, his psychiatrist? Yes, yes. I would be like, is this a practical joke right now? Is everyone messing with me? It just seems like a very Large leap. Yes, yes. So move on a little bit about move on. This is a US-based nonprofit and it's the world's oldest and largest civilian-based UFO investigation and research organization. And they pride themselves not only on taking unidentified aerial phenomenon reports, but by following up those reports with different investigations. Over the years, they have compiled over 4,000 accounts from several different countries,
11:03 Danielle LaRock? done hundreds of investigations, and have an extensive database that serves as a comprehensive collection of information encompassing reports of flying saucers, UFO crashes, and even cattle mutilations linked to different UFO activities and reports. Essentially, Jim Psychiatrist, for whatever reason that may be, and it bears mentioning that I could not find why he was like when I was reading that they were like, we're going to give you some additional resources. And I just, the last thing in my mind was like, they were going to recommend him to go talk to a UFO specialist for this. And I couldn't find a reason why that was. But either way, he was referred to Raymond Fowler.
11:44 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, it seems like a very odd jump from explaining symptoms to being referred to UFO specialist. Right. It seems like very odd, like kind of Especially through a medical Right. facility, you know, like that would not be Yeah. That feels very like outlandish a little bit. Yeah, it does seem outlandish, but Jim agreed because it just so happens that he, his brother, Jack, and the two other men that are in his dreams repeatedly, Charles Chuck Rack and Charlie Foltz, had all experienced something that they could never quite explain nearly 12 years earlier in the Northwoods of Maine.
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14:04 Danielle LaRock? It was August of 1976, a perfect time to explore Maine. And Jim, Jack, Charlie, and Chuck were in their twenties and ready for an adventure. The group had all met and become friends as they attended the Massachusetts College of Art and Design in Boston and were ready to get out of the city. They had carved out a two-week vacation to Vacation Land. They were to start with a climb of Mount Katahdin, the state's highest peak and epicenter of Baxter State Park, a mountain in the remote wilderness of Maine that also serves as the beginning or end of the AT, the Appalachian Trail. Following their ascent, they hopped aboard a chartered bush plane that carried them, their gear, and their canoe even further into the forest, hours to the north to an area nearly bordering Canada.
14:46 Danielle LaRock? The men had heard wonderful things about the Allagash Wilderness and were stoked to explore it themselves. So this place that they were headed is called the Allagash Wilderness waterway and it's a ninety two and a half mile or one hundred and forty eight kilometer ribbon of lakes, rivers, streams and ponds. And it's a paddler's dream. Formerly established in nineteen sixty six by the state of Maine and adopted as part of the National Wild and Scenic River System two years later. Visitors can paddle, boat or raft for days. Fishing is an extremely popular activity here because of the sheer amount of water. But in the, in the winter, snowmobiling is a big draw, ice fishing. No matter what time of year you go, it, there's always something to do.
15:31 Danielle LaRock? And it's very remote, but that wild character is what draws thousands of people in every year. Yeah, I know people have gone up there for large canoe trips where they just go out for like, I think, like two weeks at a time and will just be going through the waterways. And I remember seeing people post photos just canoeing on these waterways in the morning and just seeing moose like lined up on the water sides and. Yeah, there's very little roads up here, so just like the, these four men did, a lot of people, you, you have to come into certain places on bush plains, like that's just um, the remoteness of the nature of how remote it is up there. The waterways and hundreds of miles of shoreline is protected.
16:15 Danielle LaRock? And the waterways are surrounded by commercial forest land and other conservation lands. And while the state of Maine has maintained control of this area, the National Park Service has filed numerous reports over the years recommending federal acquisition. So the National Park Service is like, we want a little bit of that. Fair. Acadia and another one? Yeah, they, I was looking at the reports and I think they did it a couple of years after they were first established. So in the, you know, late sixties, early seventies. And then they did another bid for it a couple of decades later. So I don't know if they're gonna keep trying, but they've put in a lot of formal requests to acquire the allagash for federal protection. Interesting. Far before state and federal agencies started vying over control of the allagash,
17:00 Danielle LaRock? various indigenous groups called this part of the world home and still continue to do so. Most recently, The Abenaki, whose heritage is reflected in many of the names given to the lakes, ponds, and streams in the area. The word allagash itself has one possible origin from the Abenaki word allagash, meaning camp on the lakeshore. Numerous indigenous archaeological sites have been documented along the waterways here, while others likely remain undetected in the thick forests. It's a rugged place, home to an abundance of wildlife. Like you said, moose, tons of moose. There's lynx. I've never seen them, but. Yeah, allegedly they're there. Allegedly they're up there. There's lynx, black bear, river otters, snowshoe hares, and more. Maine as a whole is
17:42 Danielle LaRock? far enough north to have habitat conditions that support species commonly found in Canada, and some that have been considered to have gone extinct, or have been extirpated from the state, including the eastern cougar and the wolf. And I just, I love when people, I mean, whatever, anything's possible up in especially the northern parts of Maine. It's borders, Canada, where these species are prevalent. But every once in a while, people in Maine will post trail cam footage of an animal that they're like, is this a wolf? Is this a cougar? Like, etc., etc. And sometimes they are. I mean, Vermont has had photos of wolves, especially northern Vermont. Same goes for Maine. And I don't know if I've mentioned
18:26 Danielle LaRock? this on the show before, but just a quick anecdote, because it has to do with this directly. My ex-boyfriend was on a canoe trip in the northwoods of Maine. I don't know if they were in the allagash or not, but they were up there. And they were there for a week, him and his three buddies. And they were out paddling at like 5:00 a.m. It's, and they come around a corner and they saw a cougar with a duck in its mouth on the riverbank, and then it darted into the woods after like 15 seconds. But they all saw it. That's so cool. And like, it was the first thing he told me when he came back. So remote up there, like, who knows what's actually going on? There's not enough people up there to study, to say, like, oh, these are extinct. It's like, are you sure?
19:07 Danielle LaRock? Well, yeah. And it's just, it's so believable, because the eastern cougar has been officially declared extinct, like locally extinct there. But that means that they were once there and you know, I don't know. We talk about cougars a lot and like how far they travel and I mean, one was hit. And how elusive they are. Connecticut by a car, you know? Yeah. So they're around. For sure. There's been a couple of recent, I feel like every year there's a photo posted in Maine, especially of a snowmobiler out where they see a wolf. And it's like very quick glimpse, but it's not, it's not farfetched because when you cross over into Canada, I mean Vermont, right into Montreal, which is not far away at all, right outside of Montreal,
19:52 Danielle LaRock? they have a species of wolves that are there. So. Yeah. And there's a whole discussion about coy wolves that, which we've never talked about formally on the show, but I, I found so fascinating, just the, they're thinking that the Northeast is going to be kind of like, that's where the coy wolf is really going to take holds as coyotes and wolves start interbreeding. Yeah. Anyway, okay. We need some predators up here. I know we're talking about UFOs, but we really need some predators up here because the roadkill is insane up here. I was just, that is so crazy that you just say that because this morning I, and I don't know why, but compared to out west, and I don't know what, maybe it's just because there's larger areas
20:35 Danielle LaRock? that like the wildlife isn't pushed to roadways as much as they are here, but the roadway is here. I don't know what the hell is going, I counted like every day I see at least a porcupine and a possum, a skunk, squirrel, like not just like, oh, here's a squirrel here and there, like they're like bigger every single day. And they're not just like the same ones I'm passing all the time. It's crazy. I'm like, what the, what is happening? Vermont has a season and it's in the spring and we don't have like a major highway system in Vermont, but we do have a highway. It's like a one lane, two lane highway. It's not anything that major, but we do have a highway where in the springtime, there are so many deer that are hit
21:19 Danielle LaRock? that it is actually people have been talking about in the state of Vermont, the importance of reentry. Producing a large predator such as a wolf because the problem is so bad because so many people are hitting them, they're damaging their cars, they're getting hurt, or they're also talking about doing the, what are they called? The over- Oh, the wildlife pass. Yes, thank you. Overpasses, yeah. The overpass, the wildlife overpasses in Vermont because it's so bad here. But there's also, there's very limited predators that are here. So it's been this conversation that's been happening because, I mean, it's insane. You, May, June time, you're driving down the highway and every like minute of driving, you see a deer on the side of the road, there's
22:03 Danielle LaRock? a porcupine, sometimes there's beavers that make it up there. Oh, that's another one. Yeah, beavers are, yeah. Yeah. And it's just so sad. And it's because they're so overpopulated. Well, it makes me hesitant to drive at night here. Yes. And I never felt like that in Colorado. Yeah, you like, you don't have to worry about it that much. Yeah, there's elk and stuff and what like, which is scary to think about driving into, but deer, just dart the fuck out in front of you. And just seeing the sheer amount of roadkill, it's like, obviously somebody hit that. And I don't want to be that person. No, it's scary. One, because you don't want to hurt an animal, but also because you can get really injured yourself when you hit these large animals. Yeah, you can die. Yeah.
22:44 Danielle LaRock? There's a, there's a really big population on my road and they're always in this certain area. And you don't drive super fast on my road anyway, because it's a residential. But like every time I drive at either in the morning or around dusk or after it's dark, I'm nervous because I'm like, because I almost always see deer. Yep, I know. Anyway, okay. Anyway, UFOs. Sorry, way off track. Here we are. Okay, so we're back in the Allagash. We're talking about it. The last thing I'm going to say about it is it's a very remote place and visitors, like I said earlier, either take the bush planes or some of the logging roads that are out there to access different points along the waterway system. But in this case, for Jim, Jack, Charlie
23:27 Danielle LaRock? and Chuck, they chartered a float plane. Despite not having a heap of backcountry experience, the men had prepared for nearly a year. Ahead of this trip, researching the best gear, conditioning and studying local maps to select their campsites for their nearly 20 day planned excursion. The men waved the bush plane goodbye as they set up camp for the night. The next morning after breakfast, breaking camp and packing gear, they pushed off into the waters of Telos Lake for the kickoff of their canoe portion of their trip because they already hiked Katadin and all that, got that out of the way or dropped off. Sounds like a really fun trip. I'm like taking notes here. They paddled all day long in the lake, making very little headway though, because of the extreme headwind that they were battling for hours.
24:12 Danielle LaRock? Exhausted and not making much progress, they decided to make camp not far from where they actually began at gravel beach on nearby mud pond. Their spot was exposed and the wind was making them absolutely miserable. So they were kind of scouting for another spot to move camp. Glancing across the water, they noticed some available campsites. There was another group over there, but their current spot was just near impossible to sleep in. So they packed up, ditched their site and made their way to the others. They made introductions to the other small group as they settled in and were made aware that the, that group were concerned about two members of their party. There were two teenagers who had split off from them hours ago and they were canoeing on their own on the lake.
24:55 Danielle LaRock? But their group was getting worried about them because they hadn't returned yet. The wind was picking up and it was getting dark. Jim, Jack, Chuck and Charlie offered to help locate the boys. So Jim picked up some binoculars and was scanning the water. When he heard a voice from the other group behind him saying, hey, what is that? Sweeping his binos in the direction of the man's outstretched finger, pointing to the sky, he saw it. A bright light in the sky that had a reddish cast to it in the eastern part of the sky, moving slightly. At first, they all thought it could have been Mars because of the, the reddish tint to it. But it was astoundingly bright and seemed to be hovering about 200 feet from the top of
25:35 Danielle LaRock? the tree line. Suddenly it inverted on itself, closing in sort of like an eyelid closing over an eye, closing from the outer edges inwards before disappearing from sight. From when it was spotted to when it blinked out was less than 30 seconds. And despite some murmurs of huh, that was kind of weird. Like, what was that? Being exchanged from, you know, the people in the group that saw it, no one thought much more of it. Shortly after, the teens were spotted, and they were actually setting up camp in the same spot that the four guys had just ditched. But the mystery was over, they seemed fine, so they all went to bed. The next morning came, and the journey continued. This time, a paddle across Chamberlain Lake and a portage to Eagle
26:16 Danielle LaRock? Lake. Their plan was to camp at the Thoreau Campsite on Pillsbury Island, named after the famed American naturalist, writer, and philosopher who ventured through Maine in the 1800s on various expeditions led by Penobscot guides. As the men approached, they were bummed to see that the site had already been taken, so they went with a plan B, an alternate campsite called Smith Brook. At this point, August 26th, six days into their trip, they had fallen into a pattern. Have breakfast, break down their camp, pack up their gear, paddle for the day, set up camp again, sleep, repeat. When things were settled and the sun had set, they decided to do some night fishing. It was a moonless night and nearly pitch black. In order to mark their site, they built a large fire, big enough to burn brightly for at least three hours to serve
27:01 Danielle LaRock? as a beacon. And it was bordering on like a bonfire size. It wasn't just like a small And this is in the middle of the wilderness? Yes. Seems a little dangerous. Well, it's funny you say that because Jim even remembers thinking that. Like, this is actually a little risky, because I don't want it to cause a forest fire. But it was so dark that night, if they paddled out and they got turned around, like, there would be no way to see where their campsite was. So they needed a beacon, and they had no idea how long they were going to be out fishing. So they built it large enough to burn for at least a handful of hours and went out to fish. After loading their fishing gear, the men pushed off and paddled out, marveling at just how silent it was.
27:46 Danielle LaRock? Aside from the sloshing of their paddles slicing into the water and the occasional loon call, they all recall this stillness to the water and the air in the woods that made the night feel a little foreign and creepy. Leisurely paddling and throwing an occasional line, it didn't take long for the mosquitoes to descend. And if you know about Maine mosquitoes, you know. They're, they're real, for sure. Relentless. So needless to say, the group who were out for less than 20 minutes decided to start turning back. This is not worth it. We gotta go. Chuck was paddling in the back and suddenly felt like something was off. He likened it to the feeling of knowing someone is looking at you through a crowded room. Like you can't explain it, but you feel it. You can feel eyes on you.
28:30 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, you turn and someone's staring right at you. Like that's how he was explaining it. So he threw his gaze over his right shoulder in the direction of that uneasy feeling to see a ball of light rising from the tree line about 200 yards away. Not the fire. Not the fire. That's correct. Eyes wide, he alerted Jim, Jack and Charlie, and they all turned to look at what he was pointing out. Looking towards the southeastern rim of the cove, a large, round light was rising above the tree line. It ascended roughly 300 feet and seemed to stop and hover. It was large, the size of a two-story building. Its diameter, as wide as a tractor trailer, is long, and it was circular and very bright.
29:12 Danielle LaRock? It appeared to have some sort of energy pathway between the polar and equatorial sides of it, and it seemed to be divided into four oscillating quadrants of light that fluctuated between red, green and yellow. It also wasn't solid, but rather had an almost liquid appearance. Similar to, the way they described it, is similar to sauce. Like if you're making a thick sauce, right before it starts boiling, you know how it like kind of undulates and rolls a little bit under the pressure of the heat, but it's not like sputtering and boiling? Kind of like that. Like it had this pulsing energy to it. Interesting. It was also so bright that it illuminated the tops of the trees below it in a way that
29:52 Danielle LaRock? it almost looked like daylight. Most strikingly, it was completely silent. It emitted absolutely no sound. There was no humming, whirring, or buzzing. If it wasn't emanating light, a light source, they would have never known that it was there. That's so interesting. And it's a couple of different colors. Yep. And the silence really astounded them, especially given how sound travels on the water of a lake, and especially in a place this remote. I mean, everyone has heard people talking on a lake and they seem, it sounds like they're right next to you. Yeah, or if you're across the lake, you can hear the conversation of the people on the other side because there's just no sound barrier there. Right.
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33:28 Danielle LaRock? Jim remembers having the immediate thought of, this must be what we saw the other night. But everyone was going through their own, like, what the hell is that? question. Yeah, it's so weird. A plane or a helicopter, a weather balloon, swamp gas, like, they were just kind of rifling through all of these different- Trying to make logical- Yes. -reasoning of what's happening. Just trying to assign an identifier, like, identifying this. To what they're seeing. Yeah. Yeah. But each time, each thing, they're like, no, can't be that. No, no, definitely not. The object was unlike anything that any of them had ever seen and they were awestruck. But immediately after the awe came some anxiety, though what the hell is that? Kind
34:11 Danielle LaRock? of inquisitively, like, that inquisitive, like, huh, I'm curious. About this immediately started to take this edge of, okay, what the hell is that? Like, let's get out of here. What is that? Right. And they started to feel that way, especially as it started to slowly and silently move in their general direction. When it was about 100 yards away, Chuck leaned down to his feet and grabbed a flashlight, pointing it towards the object. He began clicking it on and off. Three short, three long, three short. Morse code. The earthly universe, universal distress signal SOS.
34:50 Danielle LaRock? As if in response, the ball of light stopped moving, emitted a beam of light that hit the water surface and started sweeping across the water like a search floodlight as it began approaching their canoe. The men had a collective, oh crap moment and dropped the flashlight, turned forward, and started collectively paddling to shore while the light approached from behind. Those without a paddle used their hands. They're like, get out of here right now. I don't know what that is, but it is coming for us. And we gotta move. Jack remembers the moment very clearly saying, quote, "I remember looking over my shoulder, trying to keep an eye on this object, and it was coming up behind us. It was
35:31 Danielle LaRock? getting very close. It was almost on top of us at this point, and I remember thinking, we are not going to outrun this thing." They weren't terribly far from shore, but before they knew it, they were skidding up onto the sandy shores of the beach and climbing out. After getting to their feet, they collectively turned to face the water, and they watched as the light now directly in front of them, less than 30 feet away, and it started to implode on itself. At first, they thought it vanished completely, but after a moment, they watched it as it, as it appeared again, slightly further away and higher up in the sky. And then it would blink out, almost eclipsing on itself like a camera lens closes in on itself. And then again, it would reappear a little higher and further away in the sky.
36:14 Danielle LaRock? And it repeated this process of kind of blinking in and out and moving further away several times until within mere seconds, without a sound, it appeared like most of the other stars in the sky, moving further and further away until it was completely out of sight and gone. The group trudged up the beach to their camp in what they described as a daze. Charlie walked up to the fire pit and noticed that it was just a smoldering pile of coals, like it was nearly completely out, nothing more than just a little bit of glow coming from it. Even though they had only allegedly been gone for like thirty minutes? Yep. Puzzled, he turned to the others and asked if they wanted to throw more logs onto the fire.
36:56 Danielle LaRock? And they unanimously decided to forget the fire and they all felt a little weird, strange, almost as if they were in some sort of altered state. Chuck compared it to after you get anesthesia, you're completely relaxed, you're really unconcerned and not really bothered by much and you're really, really tired. Without any more discussion, they climbed into their sleeping bags and went to bed. Day broke hours later and the group commenced their vacation routine. Breakfast, camp breakdown, gear packing. There was some talk of what they saw the previous night, but not in the way that you would typically expect for twenty something year old guys on a camping trip that just got chased by an unexplainable light across the lake. Like there weren't like, what the, like, what was that? They're just like, well, now we're tired.
37:41 Danielle LaRock? It's like, yeah, that was kind of weird, right? Anyways. Anyway, time for bed. That was kind of how the, the morning discussion went, just kind of like, huh, like, wonder what that could have been? That was kind of strange. But when they, by the time they reached their next campsite as the day wore on, they noticed a ranger patrolling the lake and flagged him down. The men told the ranger about their sighting, what happened to them on the canoe the previous night and how they were essentially chased across the lake by this mysterious light. And the ranger squinted his eyes, cocked his head slightly and spoke in a gruff, heavy Maine accent and explained it away, saying, well, what you boys probably saw was the grand opening of the new hardware store in Millinocket. They have those big Hollywood spotlights on a truck parked outside of the store.
38:25 Danielle LaRock? And the young man, yeah, the young men kind of like exchanged some wary glances between, like amongst themselves, but they thanked him first time, like they weren't going to be like arguing. He doesn't believe us. He's just chugging it up to something that we would clearly. Know was a normal light. Right. And it's like, okay, I can understand maybe that line of thinking. However, as the crow flies from where they were, Millinocket was more than 90 miles away. And not only that, Mount Katahdin sits in direct obstruction of that path. So they wouldn't have seen it. Right. And it seems pretty unbelievable that they would have been chased by like the celeb. It's like Hollywood spotlight. Over the lake. Over the lake. To the, yeah.
39:07 Danielle LaRock? Yeah. So needless to say, none of the guys accepted that explanation, but they didn't argue with him either. But they didn't really have another explanation to assign to it. So the rest of the trip goes by without a hitch. They enjoy themselves. They don't have another strange encounter and they just all go home to Boston. They all told their friends and family about what they saw when they got back from their trip, but they received the usual brush offs and strange looks from people that you would expect. What drugs did you take with you? Sounds like you had a good time. And they had the same repeated conversations, wondering what it could have possibly been. But as time passed and the conversations surrounding that night in the Allagash, just, it just started to fade over time.
39:50 Danielle LaRock? You know, there's only so much you can talk about it without answers. Like, yeah, it's weird and it's whatever, but. You must start to feel a little crazy yourself too, when every reaction you get is like, what are you talking about? That's. I feel like you would feel that way if it was just you, because you question yourself. Like there are four of them having the shared experience. Very true. Yeah. And there isn't much detailed information on their lives in the years following this experience, but there were graduations, marriages, new jobs, and generally just the normal cadence of life. For all four of them, until over a decade later, when Jim and Jack realized they had been having the same night terrors.
40:33 Danielle LaRock? So now we're back to where we started at the beginning of the episode. And now we're going to the U of the MUFON conference, because that's what the psychiatrist suggested that Jim do. And he did. He went to the, um, the MUFON conference and. He met with Raymond Fowler. And in his conversation with Raymond Fowler, Raymond was, had his interest really, he was very intrigued by what Jim was explaining to him. Because he had heard, you know, hundreds, thousands of accounts of sightings and things like that. But what was really piquing his interest about that, you know, that experience in Maine and all that. Like, yeah, that's interesting to him, but was, what was really the hook for him?
41:18 Danielle LaRock? Was that he and his twin brother were having these same exact night terrors, however many years after this experience and had just realized that.
41:28 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, that they hadn't talked about it before. And now there's like some link here that might be tied to an event that happened in their lives.
41:37 Danielle LaRock? Right. So Raymond suggested that Jim and Jack, along with Charlie and Chuck, undergo hypnotic regression sessions, especially because all four men had trouble recalling a portion of that night, which was the blip of time between when they had that like, oh crap, like let's paddle away fast. To when they bumped up on shore. Like, it was like a split second for them.
41:57 Cassandra Yahnian? Cause like you said, with the bonfire, it should have been burning for hours. So theoretically, they were missing like maybe two to three hours of their, of their night.
42:07 Danielle LaRock? Yep. And in their eyes, a few minutes, 10 at most, from what they could gather was missing. Like from when they started paddling to when they hit on shore. Like that time wasn't two to three hours.
42:18 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
42:19 Danielle LaRock? So either way, to them, it's something that they could easily brush off. Like, I don't know, we were in a panic. We were paddling, you know, losing some time, maybe could be confusing. But when they really start to think about it and they're like, okay, we all can't remember anything during that time. Like, that's a little strange. So they agree. In January of 1989, Raymond initiated a careful and meticulous formal investigation with MUFON investigator and solar physicist, David Webb, and MUFON consultant Anthony Tony Constantino, who was a professional hypnotist. That lasted over the next 24 months. So they did a two-year investigation into this.
42:58 Danielle LaRock? To obtain the truest answers possible and to protect the integrity of the study, they were instructed, the, the men were instructed to not speak to one another regarding both the incident or their individual sessions during the duration of this study. All four men agreed to the terms and started their individual hypnotic regression sessions. Jim found his first regression session in particular to be extremely difficult. As soon as he started remembering things from that night, he got so upset, agitated and frightened that there was concern that his violent reaction was going to trigger one of his seizures. So the team had to keep stepping him backwards out of hypnosis to take the process really slow. Each of the men remembered bits and pieces and fragments of their experiences,
43:43 Danielle LaRock? and it was impossible for them to remember everything in sequence, like in a chronological smooth order. And not every one of the four men had the exact same version of events. Charlie likened it to the experience of a car accident. A passenger is going to remember bits and pieces of the accident that the driver does not, and vice versa. Even though they experienced the same accident, the driver may remember gripping the steering wheel while the passenger remembers a tire flying past the window, like-
44:10 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, different perspectives in the same situation.
44:13 Danielle LaRock? Correct. So that's how he is likening their recollection of, of this event.
44:19 Cassandra Yahnian? Okay.
44:20 Danielle LaRock? The regressions lasted for months. They were all recorded, and as the sessions progressed, their memories began flooding back. Raymond instructed them to draw what they remembered and to write down any vivid dreams that related to those newly uncovered memories, again, not to be shared amongst each other. And so, after lots of research and reading everybody's individual accounts throughout different hypnotic sessions, this is essentially what they report in a condensed version.
44:52 Danielle LaRock? So essentially, the following is what Jim, Jack, Charlie, and Chuck remembered of their night on the lake in August of 1976 through months of hypnotherapy regression sessions. Again, they didn't recite this exactly the same. There are slight variations of minor details that do exist between their accounts, and some men remembered more than others. However, this is their agreed upon recounting, a summary of the hundreds and hundreds of hours of sessions. While on the lake paddling away from the object, it caught up to them and simultaneously shown a tube shaped beam of light that erupted from the object and hit the water. It appeared as a glowing ring with a dark center that was reflecting on the water's surface, indicating to them that the beam was hollow.
45:37 Danielle LaRock? Before they knew it, it was directly on top of them as they were sitting in the canoe. It must have acted as some sort of transport beam, some sort of hollow tube that got them onto the ship. Because before they knew it, they were all naked and one by one were laid face up on a table. While the other three men sat by on the side on a nearby bench that was kind of attached to the wall, to the left of the exam table. Once they were laid down, they were paralyzed, but not physically tied down in any way. They were able to move their eyes, but not their bodies, and they were unable to speak. They would note how unfazed their companions looked as they laid on their table internally panicking and not able to say anything.
46:22 Danielle LaRock? And then they would suddenly realize that they weren't alone. Out of the corner of their eye appeared three humanoid looking beings that would approach them. They were very thin with slender arms and legs and thin necks. Their heads were large and they had large, dark metallic looking eyes, described sort of like a phosphorescent beetle. Uh, that seemed to change colors as they moved. And they were about the height of an average adult human being, wearing skin tight spandex looking clothing. Their hands were also unlike those of a human. They had four digits with an articulating pad in the palm of the hand. And all four digits seemed to be opposable digits, like our thumb is.
47:04 Danielle LaRock? And I'm gonna show you because, and I'll post it on our socials so that like people can see this. But remember, all of these men are artists in some way. They all go to- Oh, right. They all went-
47:17 Cassandra Yahnian? To the Boston Art School.
47:18 Danielle LaRock? Yes, so and some of them did like, one of them was ceramics and pottery. One of them was like a cartoon artist, but they're all in the art field. So they were really good at, yes, at depicting what they saw. And I believe, don't quote me, I believe this was Charlie's drawing of the hands because it was just like so like burned into his memory when he recalled this. But this is what he described and I'll show you and I'll post it. But this is what he described that their hands looked like. And
47:50 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting.
47:51 Danielle LaRock? You know what this reminds me of? So, okay, I have this in your mind. It reminds me of a lemur foot.
47:57 Cassandra Yahnian? Oh.
47:58 Danielle LaRock? And I'll show you the exact, like this, this is what it reminds me of.
48:03 Cassandra Yahnian? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I can see it.
48:06 Danielle LaRock? I'll post the side by side because I'm like, wow, even like the pads of their, of the fingers.
48:10 Cassandra Yahnian? Aliens or lemurs?
48:11 Danielle LaRock? Maybe.
48:12 Cassandra Yahnian? Peasants to lemurs?
48:13 Danielle LaRock? Who's to say, really? So anyway, the hands were very, something that he remembers very vividly. And they would hold the tools like in their, like their articulating palm instead of in their digits.
48:25 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
48:25 Danielle LaRock? Very interesting. Anyways, okay, that was just a side tangent.
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49:36 Danielle LaRock? Each of the men were internally panicking when they recalled their turns on the table. In particular, Charlie recalls feeling extremely upset and unwilling to be participating in whatever was happening there. And he remembers repeating in his mind, "We shouldn't be here. I want to be back in the canoe. I want to leave what is happening." And these thoughts were all racing in his mind when one of the humanoid figures leaned close to his face, almost touching his. It's huge black eyes inches from his as thoughts that were not his own started flooding into his mind as well. And they said, "Relax, you are not in any danger. Don't move." So crazy.
50:19 Danielle LaRock? Each man was put through a variety of medical procedures, various sample collection procedures, including blood, saliva, fecal, and sperm retrievals, and some skin scrapings. Various objects were utilized for different exams, like a small, thin rod with a small light on the end. While most men recall being on the table, Chuck also remembers being seated on the bench, saying, quote, "I see some sort of device on him," referring to Charlie. "They've got this, a thing that looks like a silvery, it looks like, like it got curves on it. It's almost like it sucks something. He's got his head tipped all the way back. He's, it's almost like he's in pain. We can't help him. All I can do is watch." That's so scary.
51:03 Danielle LaRock? After the medical procedures concluded, they were led into a room with their clothes in a big heap in the corner, and they slowly got dressed, still feeling like they're in a daze. Next, they were brought into another room with a bright light coming out of the wall that looked like some sort of membrane barrier, which they were all led through. It was painful. It felt like, quote, "They were being ripped apart at a molecular level. It felt like death." And then their next memory was sliding onto the beach. All of the men recall feeling terrible and being in extreme discomfort while in their regressions and found their experiences really difficult to grapple with. They had gone over a decade without
51:45 Danielle LaRock? remembering any more than just this strange light that was chasing their canoe. And now, all of a sudden, they have all of these new painful memories to deal with now. And they're all thinking, and they all came back with the same memories, too. Something- Around the same, like you said before, a different perspectives, but the same thing was happening to all of them. Yeah, same flow of events. Which makes it so much more real.
52:13 Danielle LaRock? After several months of gathering their accounts, collecting their artwork and compiling all of the information, Raymond and his team gathered the men into a room to disclose the results of their findings. Cause remember this is two years going by that they're instructed to not say anything to each other. Can't talk about it. Right. Until the end of- So they don't even know yet that they've all had the same recollection. Correct. So they're in this room and Raymond laid out each of their drawings of, of different parts of what they remembered. He basically said, draw whatever you can, you can of this event. There's the strange light in the sky, the room they were in, the beings they encountered, like anything that they remembered. And he lays them out and
52:54 Danielle LaRock? the, all the guys like just have goosebumps. They're like, these are all the same exact thing. Like everything is the same. They were completely floored by this and started to question, how is this possible? And their first thought wasn't, well, I guess we're all abducted, boys. That, that's it. Like their first- Mystery solved. Their first thought was like, what happened to us? Did we encounter something that like gave us this mass delusion? Do we have brain tumors? Like, are we all sick? Like, why- Again, trying to find a logical explanation. Yeah. What is going on? So they grappled with all of this and then ultimately they had to face the, the very real possibility that we could have been abducted by extraterrestrials
53:39 Danielle LaRock? off of our canoe in Maine. I personally think that's way better than a brain tumor. Yeah. One would argue. There were other revelations made during the regression sessions as well. Most notably, Jim and Jack, the twins, remembered that their childhood home was haunted. Raymond checked this claim with their mother, Jean, and it turns out that the activity was known by everyone in the house, the adults in the house. So much so that they nicknamed the entity, Harry. She described it as having a humanoid-like appearance and that everyone in the house- Had some type of experience with sighting Harry at some point.
54:16 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting.
54:17 Danielle LaRock? Jack added that as a kid, he used to be woken up by this horrible monster, how he described it, who had the power to paralyze him in bed.
54:27 Cassandra Yahnian? That is very scary and oddly familiar.
54:32 Danielle LaRock? He and his brother would wake to the sound of what they thought was music in the middle of the night, hear knocking on their door when no one was there and voices calling their names. Jack also remembered something pulling the covers off of him at night and trying to yank him out of bed. He also alleged seeing a ball of light moving through his house when he was home alone one day. And all of these experiences with Harry kept happening until they were about 15 years old, when they suddenly stopped. They always thought it was some sort of ghost or poltergeist activity, but Raymond couldn't help but believe that there was some sort of connection to their experience as childrens to the one that happened in Maine as adults.
55:11 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting. It does have a lot of correlation.
55:14 Danielle LaRock? So he's like, were they being studied?
55:17 Cassandra Yahnian? Throughout their entire life.
55:18 Danielle LaRock? Yeah. And then they just happened, like Chuck and Charlie were like collateral damage. They're like, oh, well.
55:26 Cassandra Yahnian? Guess we got a couple more.
55:27 Danielle LaRock? There were also events that, taken individually and out of context, seemed out of character, but not given too much thought, yet put together and looked at as a collective seemed kind of odd. For example, pretty much immediately after the Eagle Lake incident, Jim had revelations about his work. He worked with pottery before, like remember, that's what he studied in college. That's what he did. But suddenly he had a shift of how he created his pieces. Suddenly inspired out of nowhere to integrate elements of nature into his pieces. And additionally, he became obsessive compulsive about ancient temple architecture. And the belief that ancient temple sites were actually these macrochip technology
56:11 Danielle LaRock? and that they functioned as a large computer motherboard, like immediately was like, this is my belief.
56:18 Cassandra Yahnian? That's a strange niche to just jump into with no prior interest in.
56:23 Danielle LaRock? Yeah. He's like, suddenly I, my Roman Empire is ancient temples.
56:26 Cassandra Yahnian? I'm passionate about this.
56:28 Danielle LaRock? Yes. And then there's his brother, Jack, who was a painter whose work prior to the incident were all classic, traditional landscape, nice paintings. Immediately after the allagash, he never painted those again and instead became obsessed with mathematics, geometry, trigonometry and physics. He had no idea where this interest came from, but it became what he described as a compulsion. He began making 3D constructions of various mathematic patterns, most specifically drawing the mathematical patterns based on pi. And Charlie, who was a photographer and printmaker dual major in school, became obsessed with medical technology. He started using photography in a different way by using ultraviolet light and film
57:12 Danielle LaRock? to photograph below the surface of human skin to capture different Venus structures.
57:17 Cassandra Yahnian? Sounds like they all came back as spies.
57:20 Danielle LaRock? Oh, I did not think about that.
57:22 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, look, they're like, they came back to study these specific things and to figure out, like, to find the information of whatever they wanted. So now they're doing mathematic problems and they're looking at people in a different way. And they just all have these little spy skills.
57:38 Danielle LaRock? I just find it so interesting that, and this is, so this is, to be clear, this is after the incident on the lake, but before their hypnotic regression studies.
57:49 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, before they knew that they were abducted by aliens, they are spies.
57:52 Danielle LaRock? It's crazy. It's crazy.
57:53 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
57:54 Danielle LaRock? And then there was the revelation of a separate abduction. On May 20th, 1988, Jack had another abduction experience from their home in Townsend, Vermont. What he initially thought was a dream was unveiled in a hypnosis regression in great detail. That evening, he was awoken to the sound of his dog scratching at the door on the first level of his home. He got up, went downstairs and into the kitchen, which was illuminated by a bright bluish light. He opened the front door to find a bright light hovering and glowing over the field across from his home.
58:24 Cassandra Yahnian? Not again.
58:26 Danielle LaRock? He took a few steps towards it before retrieving his dog and going back inside. He went up to his room and pulled the covers over his and his wife Mary's head. Shortly after, he felt the covers being pulled off of them and his eyes met three beings who were standing over their bed. The couple were told, quote unquote, like telepathically, to walk towards the light and were powerless to object.
58:51 Cassandra Yahnian? Oh, so his wife now gets abducted?
58:52 Danielle LaRock? This, yeah, so this, he's remembering this in one of the regressions.
58:57 Cassandra Yahnian? Okay.
58:57 Danielle LaRock? Okay, and I'm gonna read an excerpt about this incident from the MUFON UFO Journal article written by Raymond Fowler from 1993, because it's just, instead of trying to put it into my own words. Quote, "When they walked outside, they were brought to stand in front of a large, house-sized, glowing object sitting on a blue light that enveloped its underside. The glow around the object itself was changing colors from white to yellow to orange. No noise emanated from the object. Jack and Mary were made to walk into the bluish light under the object and were instantaneously transferred from, transferred inside of the glowing object. Mary was separated from Jack, who was made to undergo examinations similar to the ones that he and his friends had experienced 12 years earlier.
59:41 Danielle LaRock? After the examination, Mary rejoined Jack and they were floated across the lawn from the craft to their house, through the unopened front door and into their bedroom, where they went back to bed in a strange, lethargic state of mind. This experience left physical evidence behind in the form of burns on the bottom of Jack's feet. Jack also received a biopsy-like scoop mark above his ankle. The scoop mark was located just above a scar left behind during an operation for an anomalous lump that had appeared overnight on Jack's leg several years prior. Jack's local doctor thought it was a cyst, but was unable to drain it, so referred Jack to a surgeon who removed it. Jack was told that the local pathologist did not know what it was and that it had
1:00:24 Danielle LaRock? to be sent to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta for further analysis. However, when we checked Jack's medical records, we found that it was in fact sent to a military pathologist in Washington DC." Where it was examined by a United States Air Force Colonel.
1:00:40 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting.
1:00:41 Danielle LaRock? Attempts for further information about the anomalous lump were thwarted as the surgeon would not cooperate with our inquiry. End quote.
1:00:49 Cassandra Yahnian? Now the government's involved in hiding stuff. Now you know it's aliens for sure.
1:00:54 Danielle LaRock? The government's meddling.
1:00:54 Cassandra Yahnian? That is their MO.
1:00:57 Danielle LaRock? Okay, so that was the quote. And now, once it's discovered that like now Mary's involved and she's kind of brought into questioning about her experience, she said she remembered that night dreaming about a deer with huge eyes coming to their bedside that night and looking at her. Once this was discovered during a regression session, Mary was like, you know, all of this was like kind of laid out and like, okay, Mary's involved. She was brought in for a session herself, but she expressed a lot of fear of being regressed. So instead Raymond used a pendulum to get answers, which ultimately corroborated what her husband Jack had conveyed. So take that with a grain of salt. I don't, that's just the information I have on that.
1:01:38 Cassandra Yahnian? Okay.
1:01:39 Danielle LaRock? As a small aside, Jack remembered during the regression that the beings put up round flat objects on either side of his ankle during that. So that's what he remembered during the regression. But separately, he had always wondered why suddenly his hair stopped growing in circular patterns above his ankle.
1:01:56 Cassandra Yahnian? Oh, interesting.
1:01:58 Danielle LaRock? Right?
1:01:59 Cassandra Yahnian? Like it totally changed. Yeah.
1:02:01 Danielle LaRock? The investigation was thorough. Over the two-year investigation Raymond and his team conducted witness background checks, examined medical records and diaries, cross-checked witness testimony, coordinated witness psychological profile tests, correlated witness accounts with other reports and conducted 15 hypnosis sessions. The final 10-volume report numbered over 700 pages. In addition, all witnesses were subjected to detailed interrogations, rigorous character reference checks, and a battery of psychological profile testing. All four men also agreed to undergo a series of polygraph testing administered by Ernest Reed, who worked previously as a polygraph tech for the FBI before his current position at the time for the Massachusetts State Police Department.
1:02:46 Danielle LaRock? Tests Reed concluded they were all telling the truth or believed they were telling the truth. And we have discussed several times on the show about the legitimacy problems with using polygraph tests. So I'm not going to go into great detail on the issues with that, but I just had to include it because that's was part of the study.
1:03:05 Cassandra Yahnian? They're not admissible in court.
1:03:07 Danielle LaRock? Raymond's team also examined a number of alternate theories that attempted to explain, you know, what could have happened other than a UFO abduction. Everything from hoaxes, fantasies, psychoses to birth trauma memories at like they literally tried every explanation and each was critiqued and eliminated in light of the evidence collected during the investigation. Raymond compiled all of the above information and condensed it and published a book in 1993 called The Allagash Abductions: Undeniable Evidence of Alien Intervention. After its publication, the group was dubbed The Allagash Four by the media and their story caught fire. They made an onslaught of appearances on various television programs such as The Joan Rivers Show. They
1:03:51 Danielle LaRock? were interviewed by a number of local news outlets. Their story was in newspapers, TV programs, everything. They were even featured as an episode on Unsolved Mysteries.
1:04:02 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting.
1:04:03 Danielle LaRock? At the time of The Joan Rivers Show appearance in the early 1990s, Charlie was employed at a medical teaching hospital that worked in conjunction with Tufts BU and Harvard. And he didn't tell anyone aside from his boss that he was going to be going on The Joan Rivers Show, especially for why. He was really proud of his position at the hospital and didn't want to be treated any differently by his peers. But unbeknownst to him, so he goes and he didn't realize at the time that the program was going to be live and broadcasted on televisions throughout the entire hospital. Because The Joan Rivers Show was huge.
1:04:39 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, I remember that it was a really big thing.
1:04:41 Danielle LaRock? So he goes and like people meanwhile at his hospital are like, is that Charlie? On TV. So by the time he returned from his trip to New York City, his coworkers were well aware of Charlie's experience. But instead of being shunned, he was actually approached by several of his fellow employees that were all veterans of the military who came to him to share their own experiences of high strangeness.
1:05:06 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting.
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1:06:14 Danielle LaRock? In September of 2016, Chuck Rack went on record to say that the abduction was a lie, stating the initial sighting was true, but that the abduction experience was "bullshit." Hesitant to call it a complete hoax, but rather, he refers to it as elaborate storytelling. He claimed that the story was fabricated for money, the four men hoping that there would be millions to be made from such a tale. He also claims that they were all on drugs, more specifically, smoking weed. Jim, Jack, and Charlie vehemently deny his allegations and instead revealed the breakdown of their friendship with Chuck prior to these allegations.
1:06:52 Cassandra Yahnian? Oh, so this didn't come out until after they had a falling out?
1:06:56 Danielle LaRock? Yes.
1:06:57 Cassandra Yahnian? Interesting.
1:06:58 Danielle LaRock? Jim stated Charlie was with him visiting Jack and his wife Mary in Vermont shortly before they went on the Joan Rivers Show back in the 90s. Chuck arrived and declared that he had a plan to make millions of dollars off of the abduction prior to going on this show.
1:07:15 Cassandra Yahnian? Oh, how the tape...
1:07:16 Danielle LaRock? have turned. His proposal was that all four of them refute the professional help of MUFON in order to create some big controversy over the handling of their story in hopes of stirring up a lot of media attention to their story and hopefully in exchange payouts. Jack, Jim and Charlie were appalled by the idea and shot it down immediately. They were very hesitant from that point forward to continue their friendship and continue going in public, you know, on public platforms and appearing with him after that. But they did forgive him and went forward with several different public interviews and attended several conferences together, but it was clear that Chuck's behavior was becoming more and more difficult to deal with.
1:07:57 Danielle LaRock? Chuck's violent temper eventually resulted in him getting thrown out and banned from several different conventions. And in response to his allegations, his former friends stated that Chuck's disparaging accusations are rants resulting from a very angry and resenting individual, venturing to guess that he changed his story to control the narrative. Jim, Jack and Charlie have continued to agree to various interviews and speaking engagements to speak about their experience on the allagash and stand by their truth. Charlie was quoted in the Portland Press Herald saying, quote, "We have nothing to gain by this except public ridicule. Our goal is to enlighten, inform and put some type of positive direction on this."
1:08:40 Danielle LaRock? He went on to say that they have been called crazy more times than they can count and have been ridiculed for decades now, but he doesn't care whether people believe their story or not. Nowadays, he dismisses debunkers as closed minded and sometimes ignorant of the breadth of scientific knowledge there is out there. He says, quote, "They weren't there," Jack Weiner said in the same article. "I didn't see them there. If they want to stay ignorant, there's nothing I can do to change them. I know differently from my own experience." And he went on to suggest that naysayers perhaps have some sort of restrictive worldview and cannot possibly fathom that aliens exist, saying, quote, "What we describe threatens them in some way.
1:09:22 Danielle LaRock? The only way they can maintain some sense of self is by denial." Or accusation. It's much easier to say, oh, you're making it up, or, oh, you're crazy, or you're a fraud than actually accept what could have possibly happened to them. It's not wrong.
1:09:36 Cassandra Yahnian? That's true.
1:09:37 Danielle LaRock? The years have passed, but the trio remains adamant of their experience, both what they consciously recalled at first and what was later revealed to them all under hypnosis. Chuck Rack has not made public comment regarding the incident in nearly 10 years and has spent the years following his time in Maine, traveling the country and throughout the world. He lives in the Austin, Texas area, where he expresses his talent and love of the arts by creating beautiful portraits, caricatures and pastel paintings. And the other three are all New Englanders and continue to talk about their experience and give lectures and just live really simple lives here in New England.
1:10:15 Cassandra Yahnian? Very interesting.
1:10:16 Danielle LaRock? We'll never truly know what happened that night because, as Jack said, we weren't there. We just have to ask ourselves, do we think they're crazy? Or will we eventually discover that they were right all along? And that is the story of the Allagash Four and the alleged abduction in the Allagash Wilderness Waterway.
1:10:36 Cassandra Yahnian? Well, I believe them.
1:10:37 Danielle LaRock? Okay. I believe them. I do think that something happened that night. And I do think with regression therapy, there is some studies of like how valid your memories are, like how much you really recollect. And there's also to be said that in those sessions, you can be led to believe something. And that is all dependent on the person that you're working with, if they're leading you to believe these memories. So, I mean, of course, you have to question the person who was performing this to make sure they're legitimate. Well, and if I, I didn't personally listen to the hundreds of hours of tape or read the 700 pages of transcript or whatever, but it, they're out there.
1:11:18 Danielle LaRock? Like, so if somebody is really, really interested in this and wants to know the answers to that question, like, were they led? You know, what was the atmosphere around their sessions? Like, it's out there to, you know, it didn't happen without being recorded. So that is out there if you, if you. Want to investigate that further, but I totally agree. I mean, just like with the polygraph testing that it's not a solid, like just because that happened and now, okay, they were regressed and that's what their account was. That is now truth. Like there's clearly room for debate on that. Yeah. But to them, I think the most important thing about this whole thing is like, it's real to them.
1:11:58 Danielle LaRock? And it's affecting their real lives and their real psychological wellbeing. And for them, this is their experience. Yeah. And I mean, you could say that for people who are struggling with mental illness too. For this, for them, this is real, but they are all experiencing it. And regardless, something did happen that night. I personally believe their story. I'm just saying, there are a lot of questions to certainly be investigated and asked, especially if you're someone who's interested in this because of especially the means that it was discovered with regression therapy. There are so many faults in that. Mm hmm. So I think that it's definitely worth asking questions, but I believe them. As it's worth to ask questions for everything. I totally agree. It's just, I think the one,
1:12:42 Danielle LaRock? there's elements of this story that make it a little more like, huh, okay. And again, you're taking their word for it, but like the element of the fire, like that's a physical, that, that, that the fire is. The burns on his feet. The burns on his feet, the weird lump that was sent out to the military for some reason. Yeah. Like, you know, there's just different elements that are just a little more at a an additional level of curiosity for me into this one. Cause there's some, there's some UFO. This is coming from a diehard believer in extraterrestrial life at this level, like not just like, there's microbes out there on other planets. Like I think there's intelligent
1:13:23 Danielle LaRock? extraterrestrial life out there that is light years ahead of us evolutionarily. But even coming from somebody with that line of thinking, there are a lot of UFO sightings or abduction claims that I even am like, okay, probably not, you know? And this one is not one of those. And that's why I chose in part to cover it. And also it happened to correlate with the wilderness and. So totally. I thought it was a really cool story and you mentioned one thing in passing and it's been on my mind this whole episode. So I wanted to ask you, when they were abducted, you mentioned different samples that they were taking and one of them was sperm.
1:14:03 Danielle LaRock? And I am curious, what do you think that extraterrestrials are doing with human sperm? Well, if you want the like totally out there answer, I do. I mean, there's a, there's a theory that they are creating or experimenting with another, like creating hybrids essentially. Yeah. Like human alien hybrids. But there's also if we, okay, we're really getting, we're gonna lose half our listeners with this theory. But there is a theory out there that humans, us, are a result of some type of human alien hybridization that happened thousands and thousands of years ago. Interesting. I haven't heard that before.
1:14:48 Danielle LaRock? There is, and I'm probably gonna butcher this because I know of this theory and I've thought about it, but I'm not like really into it. So I've never really like super researched it. But essentially there's a theory that we, because we have this, you know, we have this fossil record of, you know, different humans, like throughout human history, Homo sapiens, Homo, you know, all these different things. And we had, and have you heard of like the missing link? Like what is the missing link? How did we jump from this to where we are now? Like what, there's a gap there in our knowledge of our own evolution. And so a lot of people fill in that gap with alien intervention, essentially, that they came to Earth when we were, you know, at whatever time point in
1:15:30 Danielle LaRock? human evolution and took individuals and hybridized them with aliens. And now that's what we are. And that's why they are coming down and abducting us because we're a continual study to them because we, they created us. Hmm. Okay. I can see where that's coming from for sure. And who am I to say whether it's right or wrong? One of the things I was thinking when you said that they were collecting Sperm and really studying them as people and like taking samples of their skin and they want to look under their skin like later they go on their spies later in life and they're Right, that's your theory. Yeah, so that is my theory, but I was thinking, what if this alien population that's coming
1:16:12 Danielle LaRock? down and studying people is actually a struggling population that similar to how humans are destroying our own planet, destroyed their own planet, and now they are looking for ways to increase their population, but they've run out of genetic, different genetics to do so. So they're coming down and they're getting sperm to create, like you said, hybrids, to be able to expand their genetic gene pool and create a new civilization somewhere else. Also a possibility. Like they're using us to repopulate their. Another planet that they have because they're clearly not interested. I mean, maybe they are, but they don't seem all that interested in staying or hanging around. It seems like they're specifically
1:16:52 Danielle LaRock? doing studies on people, which makes you wonder why. And if their planet was like gray and lovely, why are they here? Well, that's the question, but I don't know. I just, I always refer back to the analogy of us darting animals in the wild and studying them and leaving. Like, we're not staying out in, you know, like I just think of. We've also taken, we have stayed though. We've taken up their entire landscape and taken over where all of these animals live and now they're sectioned to this small. Maybe that's not the greatest analogy because we're all confined to this planet to live here.
1:17:30 Danielle LaRock? But I'm saying like, if we found a way to get to another planet that has life forms that we're really interested in studying, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to be like, okay, well, we're staying. Like, we have Earth to go back to, but we still want to see what's going on over here. I think that if human beings found another planet with other intelligent life on it, I think that they would murder everyone, take prisoners and take over the planet. I don't think that there would be any studying. I think that we, in history, throughout everywhere we've ever been, we don't study, we invade. And so. I'm just trying to have a little.
1:18:07 Cassandra Yahnian? You know what I mean?
1:18:09 Danielle LaRock? I don't know.
1:18:11 Cassandra Yahnian? So it makes me think like, of course, alien species, we don't know about them. Like maybe their thought processes are totally different than ours. And we wouldn't even think of like what they would be needing because we don't have their perspective. But I just think like, maybe they need something from us. And that's why they're coming in, taking samples and studying because they are doing something on their own turf and their own planet.
1:18:38 Danielle LaRock? Yeah.
1:18:38 Cassandra Yahnian? Maybe he has a sun on some planet, galaxies away.
1:18:41 Danielle LaRock? Well, for me, my line of thinking is you're correct in your, when you said they have a different perspective. They wouldn't do that, da, da, da. Like to me, the answer is yes, because they are so ahead of us. Like they have, like to them, I feel like we, they view us like we view Neanderthals. Like, look at them like so stupid. Stupid. And like, they have so much to like, learning and growing and evolving to do. Like, I feel like other intelligent life forms are just so far advanced. They have such a, like, they aren't self-destructive. They aren't, they aren't always warring with one another. Like, even if you look at that, okay, here we go.
1:19:25 Cassandra Yahnian? And now there's only a small piece of them left and they have warred and destroyed everything. And now they're trying to recreate.
1:19:33 Danielle LaRock? Like, because we, they were where we were thousands of years ago.
1:19:37 Cassandra Yahnian? Okay.
1:19:38 Danielle LaRock? And they've gotten over that and they've evolved and they're just like these enlightened species, this enlightened species that is just like, we have, we've done all this. We've made all those mistakes, but look at us now. Like, we are just so far past you evolved. And not only like in the way they think or whatever, they've just moved past. If you look, okay, oh my God, okay. People can turn this off now, but I'm gonna still talk to you about this. Okay, so if you're looking at the descriptions of what people describe, the typical gray alien, kind of like they described, they're thin, they have large heads, they have big eyes, they have big heads. Everything else is really thin. They don't have any musculature. They're just, you know, they're slight, they communicate.
1:20:17 Danielle LaRock? Telepathically, like even evolutionarily wise, it look, it seems as if they've evolved past the need for, they don't need big muscles. They don't need this physical, strong body because they've intellectually developed so much that they just use their mind for everything. They don't need physical strength anymore. Maybe that's why their head's so big, because their brain is so big. Their brain is so big. And, you know, like, what are we toying with right now with fricking, what's the, what is Elon Musk doing with like Mindlink or whatever? What is that? I don't, I, all I know are the robots. I don't know what Mindlink is. It's not Mindlink. It's, um, sorry, this is important to my, to my argument. So, hold on.
1:21:03 Danielle LaRock? Um, I want to get this right. Maybe Elon Musk is an alien that was, came here. Neuralink, sorry, Neuralink. So it's a chip that is being implanted in people's brains and it records electrical signals from neurons. So it basically serves as like a digital device, like a computer or like via Bluetooth. So you, there is footage of somebody that has Neuralink that is playing a video game with their thoughts and their mind. And he developed it initially for people who are paralyzed and don't have the function of their, their hands or things anymore. That's very interesting. The technology is, uh, like with people with like spinal cord injuries and things like
1:21:44 Danielle LaRock? that to help them. But these, the, the thought process is, is that it's going to just be a chip that you use your mind to control everything. Very interesting. Does Elon Musk have one implanted? And to read thoughts and to like communicate with other people that also have a chip without having to verbally speak. And it's just like, I view it as a step. A little lazy, though. I just view it as a step in this like evolution of like telepathic. I don't know. I'm just going off the rails right now and I don't know if it makes any sense. It would be cool to be able to like speak your mind, like to speak with someone next to you. And especially like, say you're in a, um, you're in a dangerous situation where you need to speak
1:22:24 Danielle LaRock? with the person next to you without someone else hearing. That would be cool. Or just to say like, I don't know, to make it less morbid than that. But like, say you and I are in a business meeting and we could like speak to each other about what's going on and know like what to say. And, you know, like that would be cool. But then also it feels like there's an element to that where like, is there a huge invasion of privacy?
1:22:45 Cassandra Yahnian? Like, can I read your mind at any point in time?
1:22:48 Danielle LaRock? No, I just, well, that's the question, right? But I don't think that would be the case. I don't think it's just a free for all, all of a sudden. I think it would be similar to speaking. Like you can choose what to express and not express.
1:22:59 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
1:23:00 Danielle LaRock? Even if you're still.
1:23:01 Cassandra Yahnian? If you're reading Akatar, if you don't have your shields trained to be up. Your mental shields trained and up, then anyone can get in.
1:23:10 Danielle LaRock? Right? I don't know. And that's, this is just all to say, when people are like, I would never want to be. Okay, I just told you an hour long story about how terrifying the abduction was and how like it's impacted their lives and night terrors and psychological stress and all that. Which I'm sure there would be an element of, but kind of like we were just talking about with Dan Cummings. Like, what an opportunity.
1:23:36 Danielle LaRock? Truly.
1:23:36 Cassandra Yahnian? I would love to hear, if you got abducted by aliens and you told me the story, I would believe you and I would be very happy for you and I would be thankful that I am not involved.
1:23:46 Danielle LaRock? I would just have so many questions, like not, I don't care.
1:23:49 Cassandra Yahnian? It sounds like you don't get to ask questions.
1:23:51 Danielle LaRock? I feel like they would be really surprised and stunned. Usually people are like, no, my God, stop, help, like, and they're like, relax, relax.
1:23:59 Cassandra Yahnian? About time I got some stuff to ask you.
1:24:02 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, they'd be like, oh, what? Anyways, so on the alien subject, I know you haven't seen it because it's such a, I don't want to say it's a niche movie, but it's older.
1:24:12 Cassandra Yahnian? Is it Signs?
1:24:13 Danielle LaRock? No. It's a movie that is, if somebody is out there like, I want a good movie that has to do with aliens. K-Pax?
1:24:21 Cassandra Yahnian? I have not seen that.
1:24:22 Danielle LaRock? Oh, my God, it's so good. So it's from the nineties. It was one of my dad's favorite movies and it's actually one of the, when I was going through his apartment after he passed away, I was just grabbing things that had his handwriting on it. And he had a lot of VHSs with like a label that he would handwrite. Cause he would like record.
1:24:39 Cassandra Yahnian? Those, yeah.
1:24:40 Danielle LaRock? And one of them just happened to be K-Pax, but it's from the nineties and it's not like this classic or anything. It's a classic in my mind, but it has Kevin Spacey and Jeff Bridges are the main characters.
1:24:52 Cassandra Yahnian? Okay.
1:24:53 Danielle LaRock? And it's essentially the story of this like mysterious patient that somehow comes to this mental hospital. And he claims that he's from a planet called K-Pax. And this, his psychiatrist is played by Jeff Bridges and he's trying to like, figure out how to help this patient. But over the movie, like, it turns out that like, he really. As an alien from Cape Hacks and he's on earth studying humans.
1:25:18 Cassandra Yahnian? Oh, interesting.
1:25:19 Danielle LaRock? And it's not like a super serious or creepy movie.
1:25:21 Cassandra Yahnian? This sounds familiar to me. Maybe I have seen like
1:25:24 Danielle LaRock? Snippets of it.
1:25:25 Cassandra Yahnian? Like now that you're talking about it, I'm like, maybe I saw it like once, like a very long time ago. And because it's like ringing some bells for me, but.
1:25:34 Danielle LaRock? It's not funny, but it's kind of lighthearted.
1:25:36 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah, movie night.
1:25:38 Danielle LaRock? Movie night with Cape Hacks. And yeah, anyway, so, okay. Well, God, this went a different way than I thought.
1:25:48 Danielle LaRock? But anyways.
1:25:49 Cassandra Yahnian? Anyway, thank you everyone for hanging out with us for an alien episode. I for one was very excited and I, I know you all were too. So thank you for hanging out. I know you're all still here because this was a very riveting conversation about aliens afterwards.
1:26:03 Danielle LaRock? Yeah, and probably so well presented and
1:26:05 Cassandra Yahnian? Clearly experts.
1:26:09 Danielle LaRock? Uh, okay. Well, we will see you next week. In the meantime, enjoy the view.
1:26:14 Cassandra Yahnian? But watch your back for aliens.
1:26:15 Danielle LaRock? Right. They'll get you.
1:26:17 Cassandra Yahnian? Yeah.
1:26:17 Danielle LaRock? Bye.
1:26:23 Danielle LaRock? Thank you so much for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale or story suggestion, send us an email at [email protected] . Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at National Park After Dark and on Twitter at NPAD Podcast. Join our outsiders only community on Patreon or Apple subscriptions to listen ad free, unlock monthly bonus episodes and exclusive content. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you are supporting our show. For our exclusive discount codes and source information from today's episode, check out the show notes. For more information on our show, our book recommendations, merch updates and more, visit our website at NPADpodcast.com. And please rate, review and subscribe from wherever you listen to podcasts.
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1:27:43 Speaker 06 Para los grandes, para los chicos, para los bajos y los altos, los pacifistas, los valientes, para los optimistas y los pesimistas, los que valoran lo de adentro, para los que están lejos, los que no vende lejos, y los que no vende cerca, para los introvertidos y los extrovertidos, para los que piensan y los que hacen, para los que nos mostraron el camino. Coca-Cola, para todos. Compra una Coca-Cola en una tienda cerca de Usted.
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