Robbery Gone Wrong: Cascade-Siskiyou National Monument

On October 11th, 1923 deep in Tunnel 13 high in the Siskiyou mountains of Oregon, four men were killed in a train robbery gone wrong. The trio responsible had planned the crime and dreamed of stealing their way to a life of riches but made a series of fatal mistakes that would haunt them forever. What has gone down in Pacific Northwest history as “the last great American train robbery” is also recognized as the birth of modern American forensic criminology. For a full list of our sources, visit npadpodcast.com/episodesListen to Watch Her Cook on Apple and Spotify! For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to the week’s partners! Quince: Use our link to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Fay Nutrition: Listeners of [National Park After Dark] can qualify to see a registered dietitian for as little as $0 by visiting FayNutrition.com/NPAD. Blueland: Use our link to get 15% off your first order. Soul: For 30% off your order, head to GetSoul.com and use code NPAD. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Everyone talks about how challenging it is to raise kids. But what about protecting them? Outlet covers, kitchen cabinet locks, baby gates. Where do you even start? Well, protecting your home and auto is a great place to start. Progressive offers customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage. They're basically the baby gates of insurance. Get a quote at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it? Yeah, so do we. Here at Designer Shoe Warehouse, we'll give you something to brag about. Like the latest styles from brands you love. Or the trends everyone's obsessing over. Or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Find shoes that get you, at prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or DSW.com today. DSW, let us surprise you.

• 1:03Danielle LaRock?

  In many old western movies, robbing a train seems easy. Glorious, rewarding, brave even.

• 1:12Danielle LaRock?

  For over a hundred years, captivated audiences have watched from their living rooms or local theaters as robbers on screen climb onto the roofs of trains, run across their tops, their cowboy hats perfectly in place, eyes gleaming through the black and white film, before dropping into the locomotive cabin, brandishing their guns, and getting away with bags of money. The robbers grin smugly and tip their hats. They've just made millions. In these movies, the line between villain and hero becomes blurred. The Wild West of train robberies looks like a world where riches and revenge are just sitting around for those brave enough to come and take them. But there is one glaringly obvious thing that allows these stories to be so gleaming,

• 1:55Danielle LaRock?

  so shiny and so simple. They are movies, works of fiction. The characters have been designed to be the perfect amount of charming and defiant. Their backstories explain to us so that we can empathize with their character and understand why they would commit a crime like this. In their world, we forgive them. We root for them. In movies, the crimes are penciled into the script and rehearsed. Every detail planned out and practiced. A satisfying ending to the story is perfectly engineered before the movie is ever shot. The danger and thrill is artificial. But real crime is far more precarious. Real humans are much messier and real life is not rehearsed.

• 2:40Danielle LaRock?

  The choices we make, be they right, wrong, or devastating, are permanent and they stay with us forever. Welcome to National Park After Dark.

• 3:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  Welcome, everybody, to another episode of National Park After Dark. I'm Cassie.

• 3:16Danielle LaRock?

  And I'm Danielle. And I'm not trying to copy you from last week, but we're doing another train story.

• 3:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  And it sounds like a train robbery story.

• 3:24Danielle LaRock?

  In the Pacific Northwest.

• 3:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  In the same story.

• 3:27Danielle LaRock?

  It's the same story, I swear to God.

• 3:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, mine wasn't a robbery. I don't know, we do this kind of a lot, though. I feel like we get on the same theme sometimes and we'll have like back-to-back episodes that aren't the same, but they're kind of related in some way. It's never on purpose.

• 3:43Danielle LaRock?

  Same, same, but different.

• 3:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 3:45Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So, yeah, another train story. But before we get into that, we just got back from Joshua Tree. So, thank you, everyone who came. It was so fun, such a fun weekend.

• 3:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  It was the first time we've ever done a camp out live show in a national park. Joshua Tree National Park Association helped put all of this on. They really did the legwork for this to happen. They're a nonprofit organization that works in conjunction with Joshua Tree National Park to help fundraise and do a lot of really good things for the park service themselves. So we were really, really excited to be able to be a part of that. And it was great to camp with so many people for the weekend. We had beautiful weather. The show went well. Our merch sold out. Owl was flooded with, with a lot of.

• 4:34Danielle LaRock?

  How is he doing today?

• 4:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  He's back at work today.

• 4:37Danielle LaRock?

  Wow. I had to take yesterday. So we got in like super late.

• 4:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, our flight was delayed.

• 4:44Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, our flight was delayed. By the time I actually stepped foot in my house, it was like almost one o'clock in the morning.

• 4:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I didn't get home, home. I got to my mom's house around, I think 11:30 ish. But I didn't get home until yesterday around four o'clock. So it took me.

• 5:02Danielle LaRock?

  And we were supposed to record this last night, too.

• 5:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Danielle LaRock?

  I'm a crazy person scheduling that before, so we took some time. But anyways, um, yeah, no, the weekend was really fun. And it's so funny because we had a very special guest that I didn't know I was in the presence of greatness until.

• 5:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Or fame.

• 5:21Danielle LaRock?

  Or fame. Um, until I posted a picture with, so there was this dog that we saw across the campfire, like that we didn't meet them beforehand. We had settled into our campsite. There's about 60 people or so, and we're all gathered around watching Ranger Mark from Joshua Tree do a talk, and it was great. And I just like my eyes gaze across the campfire and I see this dog in a stroller. This old man, like, you know, casting correctly, that's 15 years old. Yeah. Oh my God, who is that? Went over just thinking it's like this really cute dog and like he has a great setup. His mom is cool. And I posted a picture on my story of us three together, me, you and his name is Grandpa Larry.

• 6:06Danielle LaRock?

  And I shit you not, I got like almost hundreds of people be like, Grandpa Larry, I bought that dog. I'm like, how do you know who this person, this dog is? And yeah, I guess he's really famous.

• 6:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  As he should be. He's so cute.

• 6:21Danielle LaRock?

  Deserving.

• 6:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  So sweet, yeah.

• 6:23Danielle LaRock?

  He really took the pressure off because everyone loved him.

• 6:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  And yeah, it was like, everyone came to see us, but they stayed for Grandpa Larry.

• 6:31Danielle LaRock?

  That's true. Okay. All right. So, um, yeah, anyway, long story short, Joshua Tree was awesome. And we hope we can do something like that again in the future and we'll work on it. But yeah, again, we got another train story in the Pacific Northwest.

• 6:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  And I'm all for it. We haven't done a robbery story in a while, and I actually really like these stories. So I'm excited.

• 6:52Danielle LaRock?

  All right. We'll see if you enjoy this one. Um.

• 6:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, now I'm a little concerned just by how you said that, but okay.

• 7:00Danielle LaRock?

  You're allowed to change your mind, but, um, yeah, instead of your story was in Washington last week, and mine is just to the south in Oregon, and specifically within the Cascade-Siskiess National Monument area at a little place called Tunnel 13, which is just south of Ashland, Oregon. And for full disclosure, the tunnel where our story is unfolding is literally just outside of this national monument. Like I did some map overlaying things. Like I felt like I was like hunting a national treasure or something. I'm like, okay, where is this in relation to this? Uh, and yeah, it's like less than two miles outside of the boundaries of this national monument, but.

• 7:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  Throw it away.

• 7:40Danielle LaRock?

  But.

• 7:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Don't want to hear it.

• 7:41Danielle LaRock?

  I, it's so funny you say that because I'm like, I have to list the reason why, the reasons why I can tell the story. Okay. Uh, number one, it's outside.

• 7:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  That is a really good argument.

• 7:52Danielle LaRock?

  Number two, the tunnel is listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

• 7:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 7:57Danielle LaRock?

  And number three, uh, parts of this story will unfold within the national monument land.

• 8:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay. Never mind. I take back what I say. I'd like to hear the story now.

• 8:07Danielle LaRock?

  So it's not my freebie is what I'm trying to say. Don't make me make this my freebie. Cause I have other plans for that. Uh, but okay.

• 8:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 8:15Danielle LaRock?

  A moment for the monument because it is so beautiful. It spans more than 170,000 acres in southern Oregon and into northern California. It connects the Cascade, Klamath, and Siskiyou Mountain ranges, and it contains an array of forests, woodlands, grasslands, wet meadows, and interior desert. It was the first national monument to be established specifically with the goal of preserving the area's unique biodiversity back in the year 2000. But it's the traditional home of indigenous groups like the Telkemah, the Shasta, and the Klamath people. There are over 200 types of birds that circle the mountains' jagged peaks, while bears and mountain lions prowl in the forests below. And fun fact, there are actually more unique butterfly species here

• 8:59Danielle LaRock?

  than almost any other place in the entire United States.

• 9:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Interesting.

• 9:03Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 9:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  Are there monarch butterflies there?

• 9:06Danielle LaRock?

  I'm gonna say yes, because it's a wild guess, and it feels like the answer should be yes, but I don't know.

• 9:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  I believe you.

• 9:13Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, great. You shouldn't, I guess, but... The PCT intersects the monument as well, and because of that, a lot of hikers find themselves within this national monument for part of their trek. And it winds through breathtaking wilderness. But high up in these very mountains, on October 11, 1923, three brothers, Ray, Roy, and Hugh DiOttremont, made a series of choices that would haunt them forever. But as with every bad choice, a lifetime of other choices and circumstances led up to that moment. So let's rewind a little bit before that October day so we can better understand it.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  The mighty dollar. Once upon a time, it had a whole menu named after it. Now, no more. But $1 a day lets you add Progressive Renters Insurance to your auto insurance. Definitely something your younger self would roll their eyes at, but your current adulting self appreciates. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Average premium cost based on Progressive Home data from 2025. Product and prices may vary by state.

• 10:26Danielle LaRock?

  The boys were three of five siblings. Their parents, Paul and Belle DiOttremont, had five sons. Their eldest, Vern, twins, Ray and Roy, then Hugh, and finally, their youngest, Lee. The family didn't have a lot of money and a lot of the boys' childhood was spent moving from place to place in hopes of finding stability and work, chasing the next promising destination. Paul, the father, moved the family to Lakewood, New Mexico, but when they arrived after a very tumultuous journey, they found that the town they were told by promoters would be this lush, beautiful town, full of opportunities and resources, was in reality, a pretty vacant desert town with not much money to be made.

• 11:08Danielle LaRock?

  Nevertheless, the family tried to stick it out in Lakewood the best they could, all working hard to start up a farm. However, they ran into challenges nearly right off the bat, including the neighbors' cattle eating all of their grass and crops as soon as it was popping up. And with the farm plan kind of out crumbling in front of them, they opened up a grocery store in town, but with Lakewood's failing economy, that too seemed to be doomed. Largely due to this seemingly never-ending struggle to make ends meet, the boys' childhood was unstable and challenging, and they watched on as a string of bad luck and failed dreams plagued their parents as they struggled to make ends meet and provide for their family. Ray, one of the twins, was particularly upset as he watched his family's hard-working

• 11:51Danielle LaRock?

  efforts be met with disappointment over and over again, and as he grew up, he started getting increasingly more and more angry about this. Not only about their circumstances, but at everyone he felt that had wronged them and like, put them in this type of situation. Their father, Paul, left New Mexico with the idea that he would go find work elsewhere and send money back to the family since it wasn't working out in New Mexico, and instead of schlepping the entire family somewhere else again, he was just gonna go out, make money, and support them from afar. When the twins, Ray and Roy, were 16 years old, they took a page out of their dad's playbook and also left home, riding freight trains across the country, taking up jobs where they could find them.

• 12:32Danielle LaRock?

  And when I was 16, I was working part-time at a local pizza shop to pay for gas money to probably, like, I don't know, spend it at Gloria Jeans for frappuccinos that were just like, way too much. Do you remember Gloria Jeans?

• 12:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  I do remember Gloria Jeans. I didn't have one near me, but there was one, I think it was in Bedford, New Hampshire, that I used to go to. And I loved it. It was like a treat when I would go by.

• 12:59Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, it was like my mall thing. Like I would go and get one of those giant.

• 13:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  There was one at the mall.

• 13:04Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, that's the only one I knew of.

• 13:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh.

• 13:07Danielle LaRock?

  I think it was in either Manchester or Nashville Mall, must have been.

• 13:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Hmm.

• 13:11Danielle LaRock?

  Anyway.

• 13:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  I remember it there.

• 13:12Danielle LaRock?

  Um, but yeah, Ray and Roy were uh trying to provide for their family, not just getting expensive Frappuccinos for no reason. So they too, they left home trying to find money to support their their mom and their additional siblings. The twins made their way to Oregon and found that their father, Paul, was living with a new woman and in fact, had never sent any money back for them or the rest of their family back in New Mexico. How dare he, first of all, the audacity. And the boys were crushed. They felt abandoned and cast aside by their dad. And this also fueled Ray's anger about their circumstances. He was the one that was getting really upset with things as he grew older.

• 13:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Cause they're only 16 at this point, right?

• 14:00Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 14:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, so their dad is essentially has a new life, is supporting his life there, has abandoned them, and now they're kind of on their own.

• 14:07Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. Needless to say, life had not been easy for the brothers, and Ray grew more and more bitter and resentful of the unfortunate hand that they were dealt. When he was 18, he joined the Radical International Labor Union called the Industrial Workers of the World. And the group's ideology centered on getting justice for low-paid members of the workforce who were wronged by the class system in America. So these, what that group stood for, Ray really felt like community, found community in and really felt like, yeah, that's me and I want to be a part of this. He felt inspired. He felt like he had finally somewhere to channel his anger at his family's fate. And he became a card-carrying member of the union, which was also known as the Wobblies.

• 14:50Danielle LaRock?

  But after a violent altercation in of all places, Centralia, Washington, where I lived so close to when Ian and I lived in Rainier, like it's this tiny little dot on the map. Like I can't, when I saw that, I was like, no shit. But anyway, and back in 1919, there was this altercation there between the Wobblies and the American Legion, and it turned violent and several members of the American Legion ended up being killed. So, long story short, it eventually became illegal to be a member of the Wobblies. And Ray was eventually arrested for his involvement with a group during another incident in Vancouver. And he was sentenced to a year in jail for that and emerged from his imprisonment even more angry at life.

• 15:34Danielle LaRock?

  As his brother Hugh later said about his brother in 1927, quote, "Ray came out bittered against the world. His mind was saturated with hate. He just couldn't shake the feeling that his family was cheated of a good and comfortable life and was enraged that despite all of their most valiant efforts to work hard and make a fair, honest living, life was just unfair to them." As Noreen Salviat-McGraw, who would later serve as an attorney for the brothers, described, quote, "He felt that the world owed them a living."

• 16:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay. I mean, I can kind of, he seems a lot angrier and I can't relate to that as much, but I think the sentiment behind hard work should give you a good life. I think that's something that we can all relate to, you know, especially with the economy and stuff, just right now, you think that if you're working full time, if you're working really hard, you deserve a good life. You deserve to have, you deserve to be able to pay for what you need. And I can definitely resonate with that.

• 16:34Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So he was taking it very personally, like not only was he upset by it, he was enraged by it.

• 16:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. The anger I can't relate to, but the feeling of thinking that you should have a good life because you work hard, I think we can all kind of relate to. It's very fair. Yeah.

• 16:49Danielle LaRock?

  Eventually, Ray reached a breaking point. He was willing to do whatever it took to get his family money. Why should he have to play fair when the world had been anything but fair to his family?

• 17:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  This feels like the very much like the villain story, you know, how a villain is born.

• 17:05Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. This is his origin, like the backstory, like, you know, when they do a movie and then like five years later, they'll do a prequel to that movie?

• 17:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 17:14Danielle LaRock?

  This is the prequel.

• 17:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like Cruella de Vil, how they did that one.

• 17:17Danielle LaRock?

  I've never seen it.

• 17:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Really? It's so good.

• 17:20Danielle LaRock?

  The one with Emma Stone?

• 17:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 17:22Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 17:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  I loved it. I thought it was great. And it makes you love Cruella de Vil, too.

• 17:28Danielle LaRock?

  Really?

• 17:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. I feel like you would like it.

• 17:31Danielle LaRock?

  I feel like I would. Maybe I'll watch it this weekend.

• 17:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  You should. I feel like you would like that movie.

• 17:36Danielle LaRock?

  All right, I'll add it to the list. Once that breaking point came, it was pretty clear in Ray's mind that there was a path out, and that path was a life of crime.

• 17:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Of course.

• 17:47Danielle LaRock?

  Dun, dun, dun. And at the time, in the early 1910s and early 1920s, there was one particular crime that was very prevalent, and that was train robberies.

• 17:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  I feel like I was a train robber in a past life.

• 17:58Danielle LaRock?

  Do you?

• 17:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Danielle LaRock?

  Why did you say that?

• 18:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  Train robber. I don't know. I just feel like I gravitate to the life of freight trains going across the country. And but I feel like I would have been like, I don't know, it was a different life. So I feel like I pretended I was violent, but I wasn't actually violent. And I went on, went on the lam and had a ton of money.

• 18:24Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 18:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  Store it away.

• 18:25Danielle LaRock?

  Well, maybe I can see, I can see the the fakeness of it. Like, you're like, you have a something in your holster that's a gun, but it's actually like a carved piece of soap.

• 18:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  No. You're like, it's not loaded. I was thinking it was just not loaded, but.

• 18:39Danielle LaRock?

  Oh.

• 18:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  You're really, really making me even less intimidating.

• 18:46Danielle LaRock?

  I think it would be a good replica. I'm not saying it would be.

• 18:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  A bar of soap would be a good replica to a gun.

• 18:54Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know, whatever. Okay, well, Ray.

• 18:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  I can do crime, Danielle.

• 18:58Danielle LaRock?

  In a past life, not this one.

• 19:02Danielle LaRock?

  Look at you.

• 19:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's true. Thank you.

• 19:04Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, where am I in this life? Where am I in this life? Okay, um, yeah, so, uh, of all things, train robberies, that was definitely, uh, the, the crime of the time. But in particular, criminals were going after mail cars of trains because they were.

• 19:23Danielle LaRock?

  Quite literally good as gold. They were known to carry valuables and were prime targets for would be robbers as they often carried payrolls, large amounts of cash, gold, bonds, jewelry, et cetera. Like the mail was everything. And in the newspapers, the brothers read about various successful train robberies, article after article spelling out the riches that were looted. For example, criminal Roy Gardner was frequently getting away with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth from trains. And then the brothers also read that another group of boys, not much unlike them, got away with a whopping $5 million. So this is in the headlines. It's something that they're like, this is doable. We can do this. Other people are doing it. Now's the time. And with money

• 20:06Danielle LaRock?

  like that, that's money they could not even fathom. But it wasn't just in the newspapers. In movies and books, the brothers saw characters who came from nothing and through a train robbery or bank heist, managed to steal their own golden ticket to the good life. Stories like Jesse James, who tore through the mountains and towns of America with a cowboy hat atop his head and a gun in his hand, robbing banks and trains, taking his fate into his own hands and seeking revenge for how poorly his family was treated, was of course, very inspiring to the brothers because they saw themselves within him. And the twins' eyes grew wider and wider with each and every story that they read. They didn't need to become career criminals. This wasn't something that they're like, okay, we need to just reformulate our entire life.

• 20:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  They just need their one shot.

• 20:52Danielle LaRock?

  I just need one. We just need one big hit and we're, we're good.

• 20:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  I feel like I could do it once.

• 20:57Danielle LaRock?

  A train robbery, or a robbery of any kind.

• 21:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Of any kind.

• 21:02Danielle LaRock?

  Of any.

• 21:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like a ba- I'm, I'm picturing a bank robbery in this day and age.

• 21:06Danielle LaRock?

  There's no way. There's no way. With cameras on every frigging, in everybody's hand, in every corner, in every building. There's no way.

• 21:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  You know what? I would be, if I robbed a bank, I would be the person who slid, have you seen, someone did this and they slid a sticky note underneath and it just said, I have a gun, give me your money. And then-

• 21:29Danielle LaRock?

  Are you talking about one time they did this? Or like all the time?

• 21:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it was one time. I think they got caught, but-

• 21:35Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 21:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Maybe I.

• 21:37Danielle LaRock?

  Wait, then what?

• 21:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  I think that they gave them the money, but they pressed their little alarm silently and then they got picked up after, but the sticky note worked. The person gave them money.

• 21:48Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but then it didn't work in the long run, right?

• 21:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  No.

• 21:51Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I think you have to switch tactics. I really feel like it's just kind of impossible to rob a bank. At least in the US or like.

• 22:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  There was someone who robbed a bank near us, like in, I think in my town or something. They robbed it on a bicycle and they got away and no one ever caught them. Oh my God, actually, this is bringing up so much memories. When I was in high school, one of my teachers robbed a bank and got caught and went to jail.

• 22:16Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, what?

• 22:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 22:18Danielle LaRock?

  One of your high school teachers?

• 22:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes, it wasn't my teacher, but it was in my class and it was the math teacher.

• 22:26Danielle LaRock?

  It just goes to show teachers don't get paid enough.

• 22:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, they worked full time and they had to rob a bank.

• 22:32Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, so and they're in jail.

• 22:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  No, they're out now.

• 22:35Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, so was it worth it?

• 22:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  I don't, I don't think they kept the money and they're probably not a teacher.

• 22:40Danielle LaRock?

  They definitely didn't keep them either. Like, uh, you can keep it if you just do some.

• 22:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Go to jail.

• 22:46Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 22:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 22:47Danielle LaRock?

  I didn't know this was so near and dear to your heart, robbing banks.

• 22:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  I just think.

• 22:52Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, robbing.

• 22:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  Robbing, yeah.

• 22:54Danielle LaRock?

  You just think it's what?

• 22:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  I, I just think like this era, train robbery time era, I think it's really interesting.

• 23:03Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, well, you did the two parter in Capri, in Capitol Reef.

• 23:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, with the Sundance kid.

• 23:08Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 23:10Danielle LaRock?

  All about it.

• 23:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  And I always, growing up, I always thought Bonnie and Clyde's story was not, like, I never romanticized it like other people did. I didn't think that their story was like this romantic robbery story. I thought it was actually pretty horrific because they were killing people, but I just thought it was interesting.

• 23:28Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I think I romanticized it.

• 23:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  Did you?

• 23:31Danielle LaRock?

  I think, yeah.

• 23:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  I never thought, like, I didn't think, like, oh, I want this life. It sounds so cool. I mean, they were killing very innocent people for no reason, besides to rob, but even in circumstances where they didn't need to kill people, they did, and I just didn't.

• 23:48Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, no, you know who I'm thinking of?

• 23:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  Who?

• 23:51Danielle LaRock?

  Do you remember that? I'm thinking of John Dillinger.

• 23:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 23:55Danielle LaRock?

  What was that movie with, oh my, do you hear that?

• 23:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's a train.

• 23:59Danielle LaRock?

  It's a train.

• 23:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  It knows. Get out there. It's your time to shine.

• 24:03Danielle LaRock?

  I picked up on the mic. And if it did, we should keep it in. Okay, anyway, that's nothing new. This train goes by all the time, but it's just pertinent now. Um, yeah, no, I don't know. The movie with Johnny Depp about John Dillinger.

• 24:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  And now I hear the train.

• 24:20Danielle LaRock?

  Did you hear it?

• 24:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 24:21Danielle LaRock?

  Let's go rob it. Let's pause this.

• 24:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's your, your closest, so let me know.

• 24:26Danielle LaRock?

  I didn't live a past.

• 24:30Danielle LaRock?

  It's not my lane. Okay, anyways, we are, so we're not off topic, but we're off topic. So anyway, the twins in particular are hearing all of these stories. They're infatuated. They're like, we just need this one hit. If we pull off this one robbery, we could be set for life and not have to worry about any of this ever again. Um, finally give our family the life they deserve, let our parents, or their mom, their dad, they're like, whatever, we hate that guy now. Um, but at least Belle, their mom, they were wanting to give a comfortable life to. So this high stakes robbery gleamed with intrigue and hope and offered a complete departure from the thankless slog of labor for the lumber companies and shipyards that they had been working at for years.

• 25:15Danielle LaRock?

  So now they're in their early twenties and the twins decide to rope in their brother Hugh into their plan because for up until now, it was just the twins. And they're like, we, we need. A third here. So they target Hugh, their younger brother. He had just graduated from high school. He got good grades. He was the quarterback on the football team and he was doing really good until he traveled to Oregon to work with the twins at a lumber company near Silverton. After Hugh got settled, Ray and Roy pitched them their grand idea. They were planning to stage a big heist and rob a train known to be carrying large amounts of money and possibly even some gold. And I can just imagine them painting this grand picture of like ease and

• 25:58Danielle LaRock?

  luxury, no more hard labor. It was just one, one crime away. Like Hugh, you know, he just goes to move in with his older brothers, just got out of high school and they're like, okay, you're settled. Now hear us out. Like this is a big

• 26:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  This is what we're gonna do.

• 26:11Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And Hugh wasn't on board immediately, but their pitch was hard to resist. Plus, he loved his brothers and his family and only wanted the best for them. So who was he to say no to? You know, especially as the way that the twins were just so enthusiastically packaging this

• 26:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  And it feels like they have no intention of harming anyone. It's a one time thing. They've worked hard their whole lives. This is just like, well, oh.

• 26:40Danielle LaRock?

  They don't have intentions of not harming anyone.

• 26:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 26:44Danielle LaRock?

  It's kind of like, we're gonna get the money and whoever's in our

• 26:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  By any means possible.

• 26:48Danielle LaRock?

  Yes.

• 26:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, I didn't realize that.

• 26:50Danielle LaRock?

  No one is to be harmed at all.

• 26:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 26:53Danielle LaRock?

  And people get harmed. So, yeah. They were convincing though. And maybe who knows the way that they were really selling it to Hugh at the, at the beginning. I'm sure that they kind of omitted that part. They were just like, this is what we need to do. And this is how we're

• 27:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  We're gonna rob this train. It's gonna be a one time thing and then our lives are gonna be changed forever. Which is enticing.

• 27:12Danielle LaRock?

  So he was on board. He was eventually on board. And now all three of them start really getting down into the nitty gritty of planning and committing this heist.

• 27:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  If you've been thinking about securing your home, now is the perfect time to do it with SimpliSafe, because they're offering 70% off a new system, and it's their biggest savings of the year. You've heard me talk about SimpliSafe before, and it's a security system I use and trust in my own home. With how much Al and I travel, knowing our home is protected when we're away is incredibly important to us. Our home is where we spend our time with our family and our dogs. And having a security system that helps protect everything that's important to us gives me so much peace of mind. I especially appreciate that SimpliSafe is designed to help prevent a break-in before someone even makes it through the door, rather than just recording what happens. Their smart cameras can identify potential threats and alert a live US-based agent who can intervene in under 30 seconds.

• 28:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  That agent can actually speak through the camera to deter an intruder and request urgent 911 dispatch if necessary. It's their proactive protection, which is what really makes SimpliSafe stand out. We have partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year: 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/NPAD. That's simplisafe.com/NPAD. And when you order, write in National Park After Dark at checkout, because it tells them that we sent you, and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe: Ahead of Crime in Real Time.

• 28:48Danielle LaRock?

  So guided by a combination of the reality of their world and the fantasy they saw in movies, the De Autrement Brothers planned out their crime. After scouting out tracks up and down the West Coast, they eventually found the perfect target: Southern Pacific Railroad's San Francisco Express train that started in Portland and headed south to California. The Siskiyou Line was super popular at the time and known for its stunning mountain views. So going down the coast on this train was a grand adventure, and travelers came from far and wide to see the West Coast in this way: through the windows of the Southern Pacific, as it wound its way through the mountain passes and valleys. But the De Autrement Brothers didn't give a crap about any of that. They cared that Train 13, or the Gold Special, as it was called,

• 29:32Danielle LaRock?

  carried not only sightseeing passengers... But mail and they carefully planned to rob the train as it entered tunnel 13 at the Siskiyou Summit. So this is train 13 in tunnel 13, just so there are two separate things, but maybe 13 was their thing, you know?

• 29:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, 13 is their lucky number or not so lucky.

• 29:51Danielle LaRock?

  Not so lucky, yeah. They chose this spot with great intention. Like I said, they had traveled far and wide looking for just the right location and train, and this was it. The tunnel was located high up in a remote part of the mountain. The half mile long dark tunnel would offer them even more obscurity. And most importantly, Ray had heard through the grapevine that there was often gold onboard this train, train 13, AKA the gold special, which would pass right through the tunnel on its route. The brothers knew after careful observation and study that the train would crawl up the steep incline leading to the tunnel before slowing down just before entering tunnel 13 to test its brakes, which was a necessary precaution prior to the sharp descent into

• 30:33Danielle LaRock?

  Northern California on the other side of the tunnel. And it was in this moment that provided the perfect window of opportunity for them to climb aboard safely because it slowed down, did a little test, and then went into the dark tunnel. After they climbed aboard safely, they would then command the engineer to pull the train forward and stop it fully inside the tunnel. Next, they'd enter the mail car and force the mail clerk to hand over cash, gold, and any other valuables held onboard. And finally, the brothers would make their escape into the mountains, taking off with their newfound riches, or at least that was their plan. The trio found a cabin just above the tunnel and used it as a base camp for about a month as they

• 31:14Danielle LaRock?

  continued to scheme and stockpile supplies like weapons, food, and other basics, but also items they needed for their master plan. They stole dynamite and a detonator from a nearby construction site and planned to use said dynamite as plan B. They would blast open the door of the mail car if the clerk did not cooperate with their initial demands. They also planned for their grand escape. Initially, they purchased a car to use as a getaway vehicle. But just days before their planned robbery date, one of the brothers got into a head-on collision with a cow on the highway, and it totaled their car. So the brother was fine. He was fine.

• 31:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  But the car was ruined.

• 31:49Danielle LaRock?

  The car was unusable. So as a plan B, they scouted out an area, which was basically like this big hollowed-out area of earth underneath a fallen tree that was laying over a ravine, which is about two to three miles away from the tunnel. It would offer shelter and a hiding spot in case they needed a place to lay low for a while. They stocked it with food, blankets, bandages, backup ammunition, and even some blood-stopping powder, like in case they were to get injured and needed to, you know, stop the bleeding. So they were, they were prepping for some shit to go down, uh, some violence to go down at least. They also did a lot of target practice and got to know the woods and terrain near the tunnel and spent days watching the passing trains

• 32:33Danielle LaRock?

  and studying the various timetables of not only their target train, but others that would be coming along as well. They came to know that the San Francisco Express train would arrive at their pre-chosen location at 12:35 PM. They had done their research, weeks' worth of it, and then on the morning of October 11th, 1923, it was go time. Ray positioned himself on the south side of this tunnel with dynamite, while Roy and Hugh, armed with pistols and a shotgun, hiked over the hill to the north entrance of the tunnel. There, they tucked themselves into the brush and waited for the train to arrive. Just before entering the tunnel, Train 13 slowed down to conduct a brake test, exactly as the brothers knew it would. When the train slowed down, Hugh and Roy emerged from the bushes and hurried towards the train.

• 33:18Danielle LaRock?

  They waited until the steam engine and first three cars passed by before jumping on undetected. Hugh grabbed a ladder rung and managed to pull himself on board quickly, but Roy was struggling. To help, Hugh stuck out one of his legs to help his brother climb aboard, and Roy grabbed onto his leg and managed to pull himself up. Once, once on board, Roy and Hugh sprung into action. Holding a sawed-off shotgun and a Colt 45, they commanded engineer Sidney Bates and fireman Marvin Seng to pull the train forward through the tunnel. Years later, Roy explained this exact moment, saying, quote, "I told Hugh to give the engineer his orders, and I would give the fireman his. The orders we gave were these. Stop your train with the engine cab just clear of the tunnel.

• 34:02Danielle LaRock?

  If you fail to do so, the fireman will take your place because you will be dead. And I gave the fireman his instructions. If the engineer fails to stop the train with the cab just clear of the tunnel, you are to take his place because he will be dead." And they agreed to it. The engineer acted like he thought it was a joke. He didn't act like he thought it was anything very serious. He could see we were young, just kids, but he carried out the instructions to the letter. So essentially, they get these men to do as they're told, and the train is stopped within the tunnel. And now it was time for the most critical part of their plan, entering the mail car. The postal clerk, Alvin Daughtry, had noticed that the train came to a stop. Confused, he stuck his head out to see what was going on because, yeah, they tested the brakes,

• 34:46Danielle LaRock?

  but they never did this exact like-

• 34:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like full stop.

• 34:49Danielle LaRock?

  Right, exactly. And slowly into the tunnel, stopping in the tunnel, that was not the norm. So he poked his head out to see what was going on. And Ray, having entered the tunnel, fired his gun in Alvin's direction, narrowly missing him as the bullet ricocheted off the door inside of the train car. So he's coming in guns blazing. He didn't even ask yet.

• 35:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  He didn't even say anything.

• 35:09Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, he just comes in shooting. Stunned, Alvin quickly closed the mail car door and locked himself inside, refusing to comply with the demands of the intruders. It was clear now that the brothers couldn't scare Alvin into cooperating, so it was time for Plan B, and that was the dynamite. The plan was to use one or two sticks of the dynamite, enough to blast open the door of the mail car, but not enough to destroy its entire contents. But this is where things took a reckless and devastating turn. In the dark tunnel, Roy used not one, not two sticks of dynamite, but all of it, every stick that they had. And they detonated it, and the mail car exploded into flames. And with it, Alvin Daughtry, a trusted railway employee, father and husband, burned inside the car.

• 35:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh my God. This just turned from a train robbery to horrific.

• 35:58Danielle LaRock?

  And it just gets, it's like, that was like the domino. I feel like that just-

• 36:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  And is Roy the one who's super angry? Or was it Ray?

• 36:05Danielle LaRock?

  Ray is the one that is like.

• 36:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Who came in guns blazing.

• 36:10Danielle LaRock?

  Let me just make sure. It is kind of confusing, huh?

• 36:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, Roy and Ray.

• 36:14Danielle LaRock?

  Ray is the one that's has all this like built up angst and

• 36:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 36:19Danielle LaRock?

  And him and Roy are twins and they were kind of the masterminds and then they brought.

• 36:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  They're feeding off of each other.

• 36:25Danielle LaRock?

  A little bit, yeah, I would say so. And now they're panicking because things are going wrong. People are dead.

• 36:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  Killed someone.

• 36:31Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, like they're now they're kind of like their oh shit moment of things are falling apart. This isn't going how we wanted. And they're literally just, they just exploded their target. Everything is burning. There's nothing intact. There's nothing to steal because they just burned it all or exploded it all.

• 36:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, you killed someone and now you have nothing to steal.

• 36:51Danielle LaRock?

  Shielding their eyes from the unexpected huge explosion, the brothers stood in the tunnel stunned and watching as any gold, cash, or other tickets to a richer life burned in front of their eyes. At the same time, hearing the explosion, several railway employees began to make their way up to the front of the car, assuming that the train's boiler had exploded. Like they didn't know at this time that they were being robbed. Smoke and fumes from the explosion filled the tunnel. And because of this, most of the employees decided to turn back and regroup. But one, Charles Orin Coil, he went by Coil Johnson, continued forward in an effort to help the train's engine man. When Roy saw Coil emerge from the dark haze of the tunnel, he threatened him and demanded that he uncouple the mail car from the train so that they could get it out of the tunnel.

• 37:36Danielle LaRock?

  Realizing the true nature of what the heck just happened and thinking quickly, Coil Johnson explained to Roy that the mail car was way too damaged and that the train would need to pull forward while a lever was lifted in order to get it out of this tunnel. With no choice but to believe, the breakman, Roy essentially said, "Okay, yeah, then that's what we're gonna do," and demanded Coil go up to the front of the train and tell the engineer Sidney Bates to pull the train forward. But when Coil, complying with Roy's demands, walked out of the south end of the tunnel, Ray and Hugh mistakenly assumed that he had just killed Roy because he was coming from the direction where Roy was, and they immediately shot him.

• 38:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Roy's alive.

• 38:20Danielle LaRock?

  Yes, but they didn't know that because there's all this confusion. There's smoke. They have no idea what's going on. They're separated right now.

• 38:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, but why would you assume that he killed?

• 38:30Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know. Why would you do any of this? I'm not sure. You tell me you did it in a past life, but I'm your thing.

• 38:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mine were successful in a past life, so I can't relate.

• 38:40Danielle LaRock?

  You use so, so.

• 38:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I was a nice chain robber in a past life.

• 38:46Danielle LaRock?

  So, yeah, they immediately shot him and just before he died, Coil Johnson uttered the words, "Those fellows back there want you to pull the thing up." And that was like his last words. And then he died. Realizing what they had just done, the immense failure of their operation is starting to sink in. Everything was falling apart. Two men at this point were dead and they had a grand total of $0 to show for it. Some time had now passed since the initial explosion and they knew their time was running out to flee the scene because there are still people around on this train. There's passengers on board on other cars. Like this wasn't just a mail car. So they know that their time is almost up.

• 39:28Danielle LaRock?

  Panicking, they decide there's no other option but to kill the remaining witnesses.

• 39:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  What? Why?

• 39:35Danielle LaRock?

  Roy shot fireman Sang in the head and Hugh shot and killed engineer Sidney Bates before they fled into the mountains. So they now just killed four people.

• 39:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  And they still have no money?

• 39:46Danielle LaRock?

  They came in contact with. Yes, no money, nothing.

• 39:54Speaker 06

  You always want the best for your family and that means only Eggland's Best Eggs in your kitchen. Compared to ordinary eggs, Eggland's Best Eggs contain six times more vitamin D, 25% less saturated fat, more than double the omega-3s, 10 times more vitamin E, and more than double the vitamin B12. So why give your family less when they can have the best? Add Eggland's Best Superior Nutrition to your next grocery list. Better taste, better nutrition, better eggs.

• 40:23Danielle LaRock?

  The men killed 35-year-old Elvin Daughtry, 36-year-old Charles Orin Coyle Johnson, 23-year-old Marvin Singh, and 51-year-old Sidney Bates were husbands, fathers, and friends. They were experts in their craft and trusted members of the railway community. Their deaths caused deep loss and mourning, most of all to their families, but also throughout the railway community and throughout the region. But their deaths triggered more than just deep sorrow. People were angry, and they wanted revenge, and most wanted whoever was responsible to not just get caught and justice to be served, but they wanted them to be sentenced to death as well. Like, people were pissed. As the community was reeling, the brothers had successfully escaped to their hideout,

• 41:07Danielle LaRock?

  where they managed to stay hidden for almost two weeks, which was no small feat, given the massive search operation underway. Planes circled overhead, the National Guard searched houses and barns down the Pacific Highway, and armed searchers led by bloodhounds combed the woods and mountain slopes near the train tracks, looking for the brothers. It would have been incredibly difficult also, just side note, this is October in the mountains of Oregon. Like, this is not...

• 41:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's turning to winter.

• 41:35Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. It would have been incredibly difficult to survive in the woods like this, unnoticed, for as long as the De Autrement brothers did. And some think that it's miraculous that they lasted two weeks there, but some think it didn't happen at all. Because sprinkled throughout the De Autrement brothers' story are many mysteries. Parts of this story just don't add up, and this is one of those moments. Forensic scientist Ed Espinoza, who was interviewed by Oregon Public Broadcasting for their documentary they made of this, called Murder on the Southern Pacific, is doubtful that the brothers could have survived out in the Oregon elements in late October for as long as they claim they did. His response to the brothers' version of events, as someone who lives in southern Oregon himself, says simply, "That's not true. You would freeze to death."

• 42:20Danielle LaRock?

  And like, they did have supplies and stuff. Like, they did have this, like, their holdout did have blankets and other things like that. It wasn't like they just fled and found a random log to sit under for two weeks, but still.

• 42:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  So what's the alternative? What do people think they did instead?

• 42:37Danielle LaRock?

  I'll tell ya. He is also not the only one to say that. I just wanted to like point him out because he was part of the documentary. A lot of people are suspicious that that's truly what happened. Most people think that there were other people involved. Multiple people reported seeing a suspicious car leaving the tracks on October 11th. As Ashland Police Chief George McNag remembers it, quote, "There were four men, possibly five, in this car. I particularly remember that three men in the backseat were slouched down." So he thinks, and other people think, because of this and because of other things, that there were other people involved in this, like, but the brothers-

• 43:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  There was a getaway car.

• 43:15Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but the brothers were the only three, like, on the ground in the train tunnel. And then there was others involved beforehand and after with the planning and getaway.

• 43:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Gotcha.

• 43:25Danielle LaRock?

  But regardless of where they were in the immediate aftermath, they had left incriminating clues at the crime scene and in the cabin that was eventually located. Because remember, they don't know that the brothers did at this time. They don't know if they're search, how many people they're looking for, who did it. They just know it, this happened.

• 43:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  It happened, yeah.

• 43:45Danielle LaRock?

  So through their searching and stuff, they find all this evidence. And among the items left behind were overalls, a gun, and the detonator that they stole. The evidence was handed over to Edward Heinrich, a pioneering forensic scientist who worked as a chemistry professor at the University of California, Berkeley at the time. Heinrich didn't know it, but his work analyzing the evidence left behind by the De Autrement brothers would change the field of forensics forever. In the late 1920s, crime labs did not exist in the United States, and examining crime scene evidence through a scientific lens was not common practice yet. But Heinrich was one of the very first to do this kind of work, and he did it on this crime. He had built his own crime lab in the, in his own basement.

• 44:29Danielle LaRock?

  And got to work analyzing and interpreting the evidence. The overalls proved to be the most critical in identifying the brothers. There were stains on the overalls that Heinrich examined thoroughly. And the substance that he found in the stains on the overalls was slightly sticky. And he realized it wasn't blood he was looking at, or oil, or any sort of other like stain, ink stain, maybe. He realized it was pitch, a viscous substance produced by evergreen trees, particularly pines, firs and spruces. And in this case, particularly from Douglas fir trees. Inside the pocket of the overalls, he found sawdust from Douglas firs. And he had a light bulb moment.

• 45:09Danielle LaRock?

  Heinrich theorized that the suspect that at least owned these overalls worked as a lumberjack, which as we know, turned out to be correct because as you may remember, all three brothers were working at a lumber company prior to this crime. So that's check, check, check. Also, in the pockets of these overalls, he found a crumpled up sales receipt. It was faded and difficult to read, but Heinrich used a technique involving iodine vapor and was able to make out that the receipt had been signed by Roy Diottreman. Like his name.

• 45:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  So his name is literally on it?

• 45:42Danielle LaRock?

  Yes. Rookie mistake.

• 45:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Such a rookie mistake.

• 45:45Danielle LaRock?

  And it was a receipt from when he was sending money back $50, to be exact, back to his family in New Mexico. So it's like, he's trying to provide for his family, but like, don't leave your name in your pants when you're robbing a train.

• 45:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  I keep forgetting though, they're also kids, aren't they 16?

• 46:01Danielle LaRock?

  They're in their early twenties now.

• 46:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, now they're in their early twenties.

• 46:04Danielle LaRock?

  They're young, they're very young.

• 46:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  But that's still really young, yeah.

• 46:07Danielle LaRock?

  But if you're like coming up with this whole plan, they're studying everything. They're like getting the train scheduled that they're doing like, they're doing a lot of that.

• 46:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  They did months of preparation.

• 46:16Danielle LaRock?

  And then he forgot his name was literally.

• 46:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Then he leaves his pants behind with his name in the pocket?

• 46:22Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Why, why did he leave his pants behind?

• 46:25Danielle LaRock?

  That, those were in the cabin. They're like little like base camp cabin that was nearby.

• 46:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 46:30Danielle LaRock?

  He didn't like take off his pants.

• 46:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  He was robbing a train and then just took his pants off.

• 46:35Danielle LaRock?

  Everyone knows you can't rob a train wearing pants.

• 46:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, that's ridiculous.

• 46:45Speaker 06

  You always want the best for your family. And that means only Eggland's Best Eggs in your kitchen. Compared to ordinary eggs, Eggland's Best Eggs contain six times more vitamin D, 25% less saturated fat, more than double the omega-3s, 10 times more vitamin E, and more than double the vitamin B12. So why give your family less when they can have the best? Add Eggland's Best Superior Nutrition to your next grocery list. Better taste, better nutrition, better eggs.

• 47:18Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so now Heinrich has a name. Additionally, hair on the overalls linked Roy to the crime scene, and Heinrich was able to connect Ray to the crime through a serial number restoration done on the handgun that was left behind.

• 47:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh.

• 47:31Danielle LaRock?

  And using handwriting analysis on sales receipts, he determined that Hugh had also been at the cabin near the tracks. And of course, his report on this is lengthy and involved and very detailed, but a portion of that report reads, quote, "From a microscopic examination of the dust, hair, and fibers collected from the pockets, chemical analysis of the stains on the garment, and a study of the set of his garments induced by wear, I am of the opinion that the wearer and owner was a lumberjack employed in a fur or spruce logging camp. I computed him, subject to revision with further data, which may be found to be a white man not over 5'10" tall, probably shorter, weighing not over 165 pounds, probably less, age between 21 and 25.

• 48:16Danielle LaRock?

  When in city clothes, he is a careful dresser, neat in appearance, has medium light brown hair, complexion fair, has light brown eyes, well-developed, and small hands and feet. I found the suspenders of the overalls were handled exclusively from the left side and also the pockets on the left side to be those most frequently used. The left suspender, I found, is also set 3/4 of an inch higher over the left shoulder than the right." And then he also found some nail clippings in the pockets of the overalls and deduced that whoever owned them was of... Fastidious habits, meaning that they were very likely attentive and concerned about accuracy and detail. So he-

• 48:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's a very detailed report, like profiling of a person.

• 49:00Danielle LaRock?

  Right. And especially that this was very new at this time. So law enforcement was completely baffled at this level of accuracy and detail found within Heinrich's report, but they're like, all right, like-

• 49:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  If you say so.

• 49:13Danielle LaRock?

  So from the tiny details like the sawdust, scraps of paper and the wear and tear on the overalls, he was able to paint a vivid and detailed picture of the wanted criminals. At the time of the crime in the early 1920s, forensic science was in its infancy in Europe and almost nonexistent in the United States until now. Heinrich went on to be known as the Edison of crime detection and the Wizard of Berkeley. His techniques are still used in forensics today and his work on this case helped establish forensic science as a legitimate discipline and led to the founding of America's first crime lab in Los Angeles that same year.

• 49:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow. Very impressive.

• 49:53Danielle LaRock?

  So this case is like the start of like a lot in the forensics world, which is really interesting. And one of the main reasons I wanted to cover it, because I think it's really interesting. Even though Edward Heinrich managed to identify the De Autrement brothers within days, they would remain missing for almost four years.

• 50:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow.

• 50:11Danielle LaRock?

  Somehow the brothers managed to escape from the woods unseen and they made a run for it. They hiked their way south, barely surviving through stretches of extreme hunger and cold. Eventually they decided to split up. Hugh enlisted in the army and Ray and Roy, after bouncing around and living in a few different places, they both ended up in Ohio.

• 50:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wait, he's a wanted man that they're actively searching for and he joins the military?

• 50:34Danielle LaRock?

  Yes, under a different na- an alias.

• 50:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  I guess things were easier back then.

• 50:38Danielle LaRock?

  Way easier.

• 50:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  Scanned through everything.

• 50:41Danielle LaRock?

  It's not me. It's, I, I don't know, I list his name later where he actually goes, he lists under another name, but Okay. Yeah. Hiding in plain sight type of thing, I think maybe was his tactic. But the twins, they end up in Ohio and in an attempt to disguise their identity, the three brothers used a variety of fake names. Many of their aliases included the letter J or had the name James worked into them, maybe as a nod to Jesse James, the notorious outlaw that they clearly idolized. Their aliases included E E James, Johnny Johnson, and James C Price. And these fake names would become known as the Trail of Jays that law enforcement followed as they tried to track down the missing brothers throughout the years.

• 51:25Danielle LaRock?

  The search for the brothers was the biggest manhunt of the time, lasting years and more than six million dollars in today's money. Wow. 2.5 million wanted posters, translated in five different languages, with the De Autrements brothers' names and faces were plastered all over the world, not just throughout the country. And these weren't basic wanted posters, either with like a basic police sketch or a handful of vague sentences, because remember, they know who they are and they did their research into them. So these were detailed. They had six photos, so one poster had six photos of the brothers, their full names and descriptions of each brother, some of their known aliases, handwriting specimens from each of the brothers,

• 52:09Danielle LaRock?

  and a description of their crimes, and which clearly was murder, like, and they didn't really outline, like, they went into a train car and blew up a mail car. They're like, they, they're wanted for murder. And there was rewards, uh, large rewards, upwards of $14,000 for information in their capture. The boys were constantly surrounded by people looking for them and talking about them, sometimes right to their faces. One time, early on in the search, a man Ray was staying with, strapped on a gun and went out to look for the elusive De Autrements brothers every night. Well, the man he was looking for was literally right in his house. Was his roommate.

• 52:49Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 52:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's embarrassing.

• 52:50Danielle LaRock?

  Ray was like, yeah, go get him. Hope you find him.

• 52:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, good luck out there. I bet you'll get him tonight.

• 52:56Danielle LaRock?

  Ray ultimately decided a name change alone wasn't going to cut it because it was clear that people weren't forgetting about this and it was everywhere. So he bleached his hair blonde and convinced a dentist to pull out one of his front teeth, claiming that it was painful and needed to be removed.

• 53:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh.

• 53:13Danielle LaRock?

  At the time, Ray was living under the name Elmer Goodwin and Roy was going by Clarence Goodwin. Ray, or Elmer, met and married a young woman named Hazel in Ohio. They got married and had a son. And this is another one of those moments that just doesn't fully add up to this story because with a massive search operation underway and the brothers' names and faces known throughout the country, you just got to wonder like how Hazel did not see those wanted posters and recognize this person that she's grown to love.

• 53:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  Or her husband.

• 53:45Danielle LaRock?

  Right. It's like, okay, yeah, your hair is bleach blonde and you are missing a tooth, but you're still that person.

• 53:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like you still look like that.

• 53:52Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So that's just kind of like a hmm, question mark surrounding that, but.

• 53:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  Maybe she liked the outlaw life. Maybe she.

• 54:00Danielle LaRock?

  Or maybe she was just blinded by love. Like you, you're not going to just assume that this person that you love and care about is a wanted criminal, like.

• 54:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Especially a murderer.

• 54:09Danielle LaRock?

  I think you would just ignore that, maybe subconsciously, like that can't be true. This is Elmer.

• 54:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like the beginning of ignoring red flags.

• 54:16Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Finally, after almost four years of dodging the law, their reality caught up with them. In 1927, Hugh was stationed in the Philippines with the army when his sergeant saw a wanted poster for the brothers and recognized Hugh, or James Price, as the sergeant knew him to be. He contacted the authorities and Hugh was brought back to Oregon for his trial, which became quite the spectacle. It had been years, but no one had forgotten or forgiven the brothers, and people were desperate to see Hugh's fate determined. 500 people clamored to be on this jury, and reporters from all over flocked to Jacksonville, Oregon to cover the story. Hugh carried himself with confidence, bordering

• 54:56Danielle LaRock?

  on maybe even some cockiness, sometimes cracking jokes. He was posing for photos, and he was often seen with his hat tipped at an angle and a cigarette in his mouth. Like kind of like.

• 55:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  No, he just thought he was the coolest.

• 55:09Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. There was a mix of sentiments towards this 23 year old criminal that kind of echoes into today with criminals that we see pass through the justice system and especially highlighted throughout the media. Some people had sympathy for him and found it hard to believe that he was to blame for such this heinous crime. Like they couldn't put the two and two together, like who they were seeing cocky and like with a hat and being like, you know, full of swag versus like someone who killed four people in cold blood, while others were deeply enraged and wanted him dead and could very clearly see the connection. Part of the former group was a young, ambitious reporter named Mary Kelly, who was covering Hugh's trial. She was eager to prove herself as a reporter and developed a close relationship with Hugh and other members of the De Autrement family. She

• 55:54Danielle LaRock?

  would eventually go on to advocate for Hugh for years and tried to tell his story to gain public sympathy and respect for him. Partway through his trial, one of the jurors got sick and died, so the trial had to be put on pause while they attempted to find a new date and start it all over. So as we know, these things can take a really long time. So as all that's going on, meanwhile, one day Roy was out for a walk when he saw a wanted poster for him. And clearly, this is not uncommon. He's used to seeing them all over the place, but this time something was different about this poster. Hugh was missing from it. So he rushed back to tell Ray about this troubling development and the twins assumed correctly that this meant Hugh had been found

• 56:35Danielle LaRock?

  and apprehended. They knew that their time was once again running out and began discussing a possible escape and this time to Mexico, but they never had the chance. The authorities received a tip from a man who used to work with the twins that he suspected Elmer and Clarence Goodwin, because now they're, they're still together.

• 56:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Like they didn't separate and they're clearly probably twins.

• 56:56Danielle LaRock?

  They are twins and they're marketing themselves as brothers, Elmer and Clarence Goodwin. They're still living like, you know, it's just like, you got.

• 57:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like they haven't veered too far from their actual identities.

• 57:06Danielle LaRock?

  So this guy is like, okay, I'm starting to pick up that Elmer and Clarence are really probably Ray and Roy. And not wanting to give the twins another chance to disappear again, the authorities staged a trap. They posted flyers advertising higher paying jobs in their area, which they thought might catch the twins' attention because of course they're all after money.

• 57:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Sneaky.

• 57:26Danielle LaRock?

  And sure enough, Roy showed up to respond to the ad, but when he got there, he was arrested. And his twin was not far behind. Officers showed up to Ray's house while he was asleep and they told his wife Hazel that Clarence, AKA Roy, had been injured while at the job and was in the hospital. So she woke up her husband and said that, you know, your brother just got injured. We need to go to the hospital, like the authority, like we need to go now. And as they are rushing out the door, they were suddenly surrounded by officers and Ray was arrested. Hazel, of course, was very confused and distraught at the scene. She had fallen in love with a man named Elmer. They had a son, they had a home and they had another baby on the way. So why now were officers arresting him?

• 58:10Danielle LaRock?

  And the real question, why were they calling him Ray?

• 58:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like imagine.

• 58:14Danielle LaRock?

  Oh my God.

• 58:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  This person you're married to is someone totally different.

• 58:18Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. When she arrived at the jail to say goodbye to the man that she thought she knew through and through, they had a very gut wrenching parting. She held up their son so he could see Ray, but the young boy that they had named Jackie Hugh, started to cry when he realized that the bar separated him from his father. And Ray later described that moment saying, quote, "I was choked up with emotion. My soul sank to zero." Ray wrote a love note to her on the back of his mugshot. So cute.

• 58:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Romantic.

• 58:48Danielle LaRock?

  Despite, and despite the snag in this relationship, I don't know how else to describe it. It's a snag.

• 58:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Snag.

• 58:56Danielle LaRock?

  I was waiting, I was like hovering over my computer like bumping the road. Like it's a, it's an obstacle, it's a snag. Uh, but despite this, their relationship would stay strong and they were together for another 25 years.

• 59:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  So maybe she did kinda know.

• 59:14Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know if she knew or if she was just like.

• 59:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  So in love, that when she found out it didn't matter.

• 59:19Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, well, that person, I don't know that person. I know. Elmer, and I know this version of you, and I love this version of you. I don't know. I'm not trying to make excuses. I'm just trying to-

• 59:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, and she's pregnant. That makes things so much harder, too.

• 59:32Danielle LaRock?

  He's also going to jail. Like, you could be like, alright.

• 59:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Bye.

• 59:35Danielle LaRock?

  Bye. Well, you can't because half of the twenties and women were not set up for success then. Anyway, either way, it seems like no matter what, he was obviously deceptive. He lied a lot, but it seems like his love for Hazel and the family that he created with her was real.

• 59:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 59:53Danielle LaRock?

  There's that. On June 21st, 1927, Hugh was Hugh was found guilty of murder. He was terrified of being sentenced to death for the crime, but when the trial was over, he was spared the gallows and sentenced to life in prison instead. The twins were then offered a deal. If they pled guilty and confessed to their crimes, they too would be sentenced to life instead of hung at the gallows. The twins readily agreed to this, and Hugh also agreed to confess as well, hoping it might help the twins' case. Like, so they're all trying to help each other out, getting out of the death sentence. An assistant district attorney named Greg Nielsen took down their confessions by hand, which took all night. He started transcribing at 8:00 PM and didn't finish until 6:00 AM the next day. So almost 12 hours' worth of the story just spilling out of the brothers.

• 1:00:38Danielle LaRock?

  The Dietrimonts cases are long closed, but some, like Ed Espinoza, the forensic scientist I mentioned earlier in the episode, find it really hard to believe that this story is as simple as one huge failed robbery. As he told Oregon Public Broadcasting, quote, "If I had to postulate, these three brothers were set up to do this for some reason, and something was taken. And what that is, we'll never know." All three brothers were sentenced to life at the Oregon State Penitentiary. Though they received the same sentence, their experiences in prison were very different. Hugh worked hard to be a model prisoner. He handled all the printing for the prison and was the editor of The Shadows, which was the prisons magazine. He stayed friends with Mary Kelly, who was the reporter who was covering his story,

• 1:01:22Danielle LaRock?

  and she and her family continued to advocate for his release from prison. In 1958, Mary's daughter, Noreen, who had just graduated from law school, worked to help Hugh get parole, and she was successful. In 1958, Hugh was released from prison after spending 31 years behind bars, and he began working as a printer in San Francisco. But his freedom didn't last. He died just two months later from stomach cancer in 1959 at the age of 63. Roy did not fare as well in prison. His mental health grew worse and worse, and eventually he grew violent. He was moved to Oregon State Mental Hospital and was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And coincidentally, he had actually worked at that exact mental hospital when he was a young man. And now he found himself as a patient there.

• 1:02:06Danielle LaRock?

  In 1950, he received a prefrontal lobotomy, which caused his cognition to decline even further. Wow. Yeah, rough. Whoa. Very rough. He was eventually granted parole and was moved into a nursing home where he died that same year in 1983 at the age of 83. So he had a very rough go of it. While Ray was in prison, he spent a lot of time painting, reading, and learning languages. He was released on parole in 1961 and got a job as a custodian at the University of Oregon. After being interviewed for a documentary on the crime in his life, Ray said, quote, "After all these years of trying to forget the crimes of the past, those of others as well as those of myself, it seems unreal to me. I find it difficult to believe it was my doing.

• 1:02:51Danielle LaRock?

  I'm a man of 73." The man who did this, according to the story, was 23, so they can't have been too much alike. He taught classes on painting and Spanish to senior citizens, spent most of his time painting, and tried to find ways to make the rest of his years meaningful by giving back to society in some way. Public sentiment towards Ray shifted, and in 1972, Governor Tom McCall commuted Ray's sentence, and he ended up dying in 1984 at the age of 84. The crime that the De Autre Mont brothers committed on October 11th, 1923, is often regarded with the name as, quote, "The last great American train robbery." But this name is obviously inaccurate. It wasn't great.

• 1:03:32Danielle LaRock?

  They completely failed to steal anything and ended the lives of four innocent people who were just trying to do their job. What it was, to them at least, was a holdup. And that phrase feels a lot more fitting to the effect this crime had, not only on the brothers, but on the victims and their families and the railway community as a whole. The brothers thought that this would be an event where their lives would finally begin, but really, the rest of their lives would be held up by that fateful period of violence in the Siskiyou Mountains. It also marked the beginning of the end for the era of train robberies, but also is considered to represent the birth of American criminal forensics, like we talked about. Heinrich's work on the case led to the establishment of the first forensic crime lab in LA in 1923, which was later that same year. And

• 1:04:15Danielle LaRock?

  I didn't say it before, but it was actually founded by the director of the LAPD and that person was a former student of Heinrichs. So it's kind of

• 1:04:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Interesting. Yeah, full circle moment.

• 1:04:27Danielle LaRock?

  It was also by far the largest and most expensive criminal investigation in US history at the time, and today remains one of Oregon's largest as well. The victims, Charles Orin Coyle Johnson is buried in Medford, Oregon's Independent Order of Odd Fellows Eastwood Cemetery. Marvin Benjamin Singh is buried in Dunsmere, California. Elvin Daughtry is buried in Reno, Nevada, and Sidney Bates is buried at Sunset View Masonic Cemetery in El Cerrito, California. The De Autrement brothers are buried side by side by side at Bellcrest Memorial Park in Salem, Oregon alongside their mother Belle. For years after the incident, the crime was retold in songs, films, and various publications,

• 1:05:08Danielle LaRock?

  and has been cemented in Pacific Northwest history. Just the same, memorial wreaths have been placed at the tunnel in remembrance of the four victims, and that has been done for decades. Over 50 years after that October morning in 1923, Ray revisited the scene of the crime and reflected back on that day with regret while being filmed for a documentary. Wondering aloud, quote, "It makes you wonder what the hell we were thinking." In 2023, as part of the 100th anniversary of the tragedy, the US Postal Service offered a special postmark cancellation stamp, which are those stamps that are used as marks on letters to indicate that a stamp had been used. You know, like the stamp over a stamp on letters. So they issued this special one in commemoration of this, specifically in

• 1:05:53Danielle LaRock?

  Ashland at the Ashland Post Office. And its image was a train coming out of a tunnel, and it was created by a retired postal inspector named Dan Mahalco. And he was a self-proclaimed history buff who had always been enthralled with the De Autrement story. And he was part of the postal service and stuff. So it was really cool. I looked up a picture of it, and I'll post it.

• 1:06:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Very cool.

• 1:06:14Danielle LaRock?

  And lastly, and most importantly, and this is a little different from all of our other episodes, don't even think of going here. Do not go to Tunnel 13.

• 1:06:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, why? Tell us.

• 1:06:26Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so it's on private property, number one. And number two, it's still an active railroad line. So it's not open to the public.

• 1:06:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  You're gonna get hit by a train.

• 1:06:35Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And as we said, don't fuck with trains. We've said that.

• 1:06:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. We have said that.

• 1:06:39Danielle LaRock?

  Multiple times now. So yeah, don't go there. It's not open to the public for general access or hiking, even though there are several hiking trails around it. The PCT is really close by. Um, there's

• 1:06:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Can you see it from afar?

• 1:06:51Danielle LaRock?

  You can see it from afar. Like there's people that, you know, go in that area, but it's like

• 1:06:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  The tunnel itself.

• 1:06:57Danielle LaRock?

  I just want to make it so clear. Like, we are not saying go there, but there are on YouTube, there are so many videos of people being like, if I was to go here, if I knew how to get here, this is how I'd get here. And they do it. And they're just like, if I was here, this is what I would do. And like, it's like, you're very clearly there and it has your name.

• 1:07:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:16Danielle LaRock?

  Associated with, I don't know.

• 1:07:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  In your picture.

• 1:07:18Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, at least.

• 1:07:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  In a video of you there.

• 1:07:20Danielle LaRock?

  Wear a ski mask or something and like, don't post it to your YouTube channel. But anyway, um, yeah, it's not, it's not a thing you should do. And it is cool. I just think of like that Ted Lasso meme. Do you know the one? Wait, the girl, it's like there's, it's Ted Lasso and like another anchor woman at a news desk and she's like, no, obviously don't go and do that. And then Ted Lasso comes in and he's like, now you do whatever you like. Limb.

• 1:07:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 1:07:44Danielle LaRock?

  Don't anything of the sort. Um, but no, seriously, don't do it.

• 1:07:48Cassandra Yahnian?

  Don't do it.

• 1:07:48Danielle LaRock?

  But if you do, think of the De Autreman brothers and the victims, more importantly, that lost their lives there. So yeah, that's the story. That's it.

• 1:07:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Cool.

• 1:07:56Danielle LaRock?

  I don't have like a nice little bow ending, but I thought that it was a really cool story and one that everyone in Oregon, it's like, everyone knows about it. And I didn't know it had that tied to the forensic science. Um, so that's cool too.

• 1:08:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it's a really interesting story and it, I think the most interesting part of this story is how badly it went. You know, it was a train robbery, but not really. They didn't even take anything.

• 1:08:22Danielle LaRock?

  And I didn't even mention, so it was nicknamed like the gold special and the brother.

• 1:08:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Was there no gold on the train?

• 1:08:29Danielle LaRock?

  No, no gold.

• 1:08:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  So that it was just completely pointless.

• 1:08:32Danielle LaRock?

  Well, if they didn't blow up and completely incinerate the mail car, I'm sure there was something value there. Like there was, you know, everything went through the mail then, you know, there's money checks, there's money, there's jewelry, there's like bonds, there's all these things that they could have probably made do with, but they blew it up.

• 1:08:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. So ultimately it ended up, they got nothing. They killed people for no reason. And not that there was a reason before to. In a robbery, but they literally came out with nothing.

• 1:09:01Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And then they, the stress of living your life after that and being on the run, even

• 1:09:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Under the radar.

• 1:09:07Danielle LaRock?

  Years or whatever. I could never do it. How do you not flip up or be like, and then you're just surrounded by wanted posters with your

• 1:09:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  All the time. Your, your roommate is looking for you.

• 1:09:17Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know.

• 1:09:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it's a weird, it seemed like a very hard life. And even though justice wasn't served for a while, it seems like they were never living great.

• 1:09:27Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I would say, I agree with that for sure. They paid the price in other ways. I mean, a lobotomy is rough.

• 1:09:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, a lobotomy is pretty rough.

• 1:09:35Danielle LaRock?

  But yeah, so that's the story of the De Autrement brothers and Tunnel 13. And that's perfect because I gotta go because my camera just died.

• 1:09:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  Perfect. Well, thank you so much for sharing this story. We will see you all next time. In the meantime, enjoy the view.

• 1:09:48Danielle LaRock?

  But watch your back.

• 1:09:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Bye, everyone.

• 1:09:50Danielle LaRock?

  Bye. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark Book Club, live streams, Discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark.

• 1:10:34Speaker 04

  The mighty dollar. Once upon a time, it had a whole menu named after it. Now, no more. But $1 a day lets you add Progressive Renters Insurance to your auto insurance. Definitely something your younger self would roll their eyes at, but your current adulting self appreciates. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Average premium cost based on Progressive Home data from 2025. Product and prices may vary by state.