Weird ways Ben Horowitz makes Founders more confident

Steal Sam's playbook to turn ChatGPT into your Executive Coach: https://clickhubspot.com/ohv Episode 770: Sam Parr ( ⁠https://x.com/theSamParr⁠ ) and Shaan Puri ( ⁠https://x.com/ShaanVP⁠ ) talk to Ben Horowitz ( https://x.com/bhorowitz ) about the Tupac murder, how to be a great leader, and the best opportunities for young people. — Show Notes: (0:00) Intro (5:36) Why most leadership books don't work (9:25) What to do when your CTO is an asshole (17:54) What makes Zuck a great CEO (27:09) #1 reason why founders fail as CEOs (33:10) Startups solving America's problems (39:19) Opportunities for young people (44:25) Culture rules with shock value (55:25) Jeff Bezos' new startup (57:00) Ben's uncommon traits (1:00:13) Wisdom accelerators (1:03:24) Paid in Full — Links: • High Output Management - https://tinyurl.com/yejpnfs8 • The Motive - https://tinyurl.com/2ba2p52m • a16z - https://a16z.com/ • KoBold Metals - https://koboldmetals.com/ • Flock Safety - https://www.flocksafety.com/ • Paid In Full - https://paidinfullfoundation.org/ — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Shaan's weekly email - https://www.shaanpuri.com • Visit https://www.somewhere.com/mfm to hire worldwide talent like Shaan and get $500 off for being an MFM listener. Hire developers, assistants, marketing pros, sales teams and more for 80% less than US equivalents. • Mercury - Need a bank for your company? Go check out Mercury (mercury.com). Shaan uses it for all of his companies! Mercury is a financial technology company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column, N. A., and Evolve Bank & Trust, Members FDIC — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com • Hampton Wealth Survey - https://joinhampton.com/wealth • Sam’s List - http://samslist.co/ My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano //

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shaan Puri?

  All right. Today, we're hanging out with Ben Horowitz, the co-founder of A16Z. These guys manage 46 billion in assets. They've invested in Stripe, Coinbase, OpenAI, a bunch of the big hit tech companies. But today, we're talking about stuff that you don't usually get to hear from Ben. So things like, how do you actually have a high confrontation conversation? The advice he actually gives his founders, things like when he met Mark Zuckerberg and he was really young, what he noticed about Mark that was different and what makes him such a great CEO that you can kind of steal or copy from Mark Zuckerberg's playbook? Sam, what else have we got?

• 0:30Sam Parr?

  Dude, we also just hung out with him, which was like the best part. And so he tells a story about how he helped catch Tupac's killer. And we also asked him what interests him right now? What books is he reading? What content is he consuming? What rabbit holes is he going down? And it was incredibly interesting.

• 0:44Shaan Puri?

  Awesome conversation with Ben Horowitz. Enjoy.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  Okay, so I have a good Tupac story for you.

• 0:58Sam Parr?

  Oh, my gosh. All right. I'm incredibly excited to hear it.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  So my wife is like the biggest Las Vegas evangelist in the world. And she was talking to Quincy Jones's son, QD3, and said, you know, you need to move to Vegas. And he's like, fuck that. I'll never move to Vegas. They didn't solve the Tupac murder.

• 1:20Sam Parr?

  Yeah.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  You know, his sister, Kidata, was dating Tupac. I was like, let's have dinner with the Vegas PD and see what happened. And so me and QD3 and Nas sit down to dinner with the Las Vegas Police Department. And they bring the whole case file. And it turns out the LAPD really filed the case, like almost on purpose, it looks like. So at the end of the dinner, I say to the Chief of Police, Mike Gennaro, I'm like, Mike, you ought to reopen the Tupac case. And he goes, I'll talk to the sheriff. And it'll next day it called me. So what the sheriff say? He said, Ben wants us to open the case. We're opening the case and they reopen the Tupac case and they caught the guy.

• 2:02Sam Parr?

  That's insane. So Sean, like, I don't know, Sean, if you know the story, but like, basically, like, you know, Pac and Shug got in a fight at a Tyson, Mike Tyson fight. And then like 30 or 40 minutes later, he was shot right in the strip on Las Vegas. And it was a cold case for years. But everyone knew who did it. They knew, is this guy named Orlando Anderson? Like, that was like the rumor.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, Orlando pulled the trigger. KPD told him to shoot him. Yeah.

• 2:27Sam Parr?

  And like, everyone knew this, but for some reason, like, it didn't happen. And Orlando ended up dying a handful of years later. And what the craziest thing ever is there's this guy named DJ Vlad, who does these interviews with all these gangsters. And he got him to, like, tell the story about the murder. And this idiot, like, went on a podcast and just said, yeah, here's what happened.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  So here's why he did that. He thought he had immunity because the LAPD proffered him, which means basically, in exchange for testimony, we grant you immunity. But they granted him immunity in LA, not in Vegas.

• 3:03Sam Parr?

  What an idiot.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  LAPD were like, oh, that doesn't count here.

• 3:07Sam Parr?

  And little do we know that Ben's behind the scenes getting it all done. That's pretty awesome. Like, I follow that case religiously. I thought it was riveting. I did not know that you were involved. That's pretty cool.

• 3:18Shaan Puri?

  All right. Well, I don't know where we want to start, but I just thought, you know, usually, Ben, you don't know this, but we have a little tradition here. We'd like to typically start with our intro music, but for some reason, it's not playing. I'm trying to get this cassette to play, but it's just not playing. What are we looking at here?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. That is, that's the Blind and Deaf Crew. So my friend Seth Clark, this was back in 87 or 88, or maybe 86, got shot and was blind. So we formed a rap group called the Blind and Deaf Crew, D E F. And, you know, we had all kinds of rhymes about being blind and being deaf.

• 4:00Shaan Puri?

  I have one here. It's like-

• 4:01Speaker 02

  The Blind, Deaf Crew, you know, where fly. Three of us, but we got four eyes. You know, like, that's, you know.

• 4:10Sam Parr?

  Where did you grow? I mean, like, your dad was like a, I know who your dad is. And he was like, he was like a well-known academic. But where were you growing up where you were around guys who got shot in rap?

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Well, so I grew up in Berkeley, California, which, you know, kind of is either like an academic town or part of Oakland, depending on, you know, where you are. And I was in the kind of more part of Oakland, Berkeley. And then, you know, I went to school in New York. And so I got into rap in New York. And then Seth got shot back in the Bay Area. And he was very, very depressed because he's blind. He was only, he's a kid, you know? So I sent him these DJ Red Alert, Check Chill Out mixtapes. You know, or tapes that I taped off their radio show, which had the brand new hip hop, which was, you know, really new at the time. And that kind of cheered him up.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  And so that's how we got into rap and became rap. And we didn't succeed, but we tried real hard.

• 5:12Shaan Puri?

  Well, we wanted to just hang out with you because you'll do, you've done 50,000 podcasts. I think A16Z now has 50,000 podcasts. And so, you know, I could sit here and be like, hey, is AI a bubble? Right? Like, we can kind of do that. And we'll probably ask you something about AI. But I think more than anything, what we try to do on the podcast is give people a sense of what it's like to hang out with Ben Horowitz, right? Like, what is it? If they could just be a fly on the wall, hanging out. And obviously, we come from a business and tech background. So we got a bunch of questions around that. But I think for me and Sam, the most interesting part that I feel like you've, you've contributed to the collective wisdom of founders, right? Is your stuff on leadership. So you've written two books, I feel like that are really, I don't know, like, top shelf on how to be a leader.

• 5:55Shaan Puri?

  And I think it started with a general philosophy. So tell me why most management books are terrible. Let's start with that.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  You know, the problem with management generally, I would say, is it's very kind of situational and emotional. And so it's like, oh, here's a book to teach you how to play NFL quarterback. And you could read that 20 times. You go out on the field, like, things are extremely different. If there's a 290-pound guy running at you extremely, very fast, I'm going to kill you. Like, what you feel, like, what you think, how you process that is just different. And I think management tends to be like that in that it really has to do a lot with your situation and the feeling you have at the time it happens. And so these management books

• 6:43Speaker 02

  are written like it's some step-by-step, you know, like, you know, you, anybody with a basic, like, eighth-grade education can understand the principles of management. They're not that complicated.

• 6:54Shaan Puri?

  Like, it's a cookbook, and you could just follow the rest of it.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's like, oh, here are the five steps for building a strategy, or the three steps for, like, you know, setting objectives. It's not actually very useful at all, because, you know, that stuff is so simple. So I always thought, like, well, the difficult thing, you know, you're either gonna, like, run the risk of running completely out of money if you don't fire half the company. But, like, you don't want to have that conversation, because you promised all these guys that the company was going to be a success when you hired them. So, like, the level of inconsistency that you're going to have to go through, the level of, like, you know, I was completely wrong about everything, and now I'm going to fire half of you because of the mistakes I made, will just cause you

• 7:39Speaker 02

  to hesitate in a way that could cost you the company itself. And, like, how do you get over that? And then, like, what do you actually say? And how do these conversations work? And all this kind of thing? Is the actual thing that people need to really kind of get an understanding of? Like, what are the words, you know, that get me out of this thing, at least temporarily? And, you know, nobody had been writing like that. The last guy who kind of, I thought, wrote a book like that was Andy Grove, back when he wrote High Output Management. And, you know, that book was really old at the time. So I was like, well, somebody had to write the sequel, you know, we're now, it's been 30 years.

• 8:17Sam Parr?

  Do you think that it's, like, when it comes to leading? Do you think that it's mostly just getting your mindset right? I mean, is that what you're saying where it's like?

• 8:25Speaker 02

  No, no, no, it's more, it's more complicated than that. You kind of strive to get to a point of honesty, like true honesty, where you're actually being true, like you're not lying to yourself. That's hard. You know, that it's almost like, um, you know, like if you're, you guys are kind of creatives on the pod, but like to be like a great creative, at some point you have to get all the way to that very vulnerable point where you've exposed yourself and all your issues and weaknesses and in everything and like leadership is a little bit like that and that you're kind of pushing and pushing and pushing to get all the way to what's true. So that's, you know, that's part of the process.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  But the other thing is just, you know, you, you don't really necessarily completely know what you're doing, particularly when you start and you're building a company. And so you have to kind of have like, it's a confidence game or you have to talk yourself into, okay, you know, like I, I think I know enough, you know, to do this. And, you know, it can be very little things. Like I had a conversation with an entrepreneur. He's like, Ben, like I need your help. And I was like, why do you need my help? He says, my CTO is an asshole. And I said, well, okay. But you know, like he's a good CTO. I know that from talking to before. So you're, you're not even asking me, should you fire him, are you? And he's like, no, I'm not asking you that. And I said, well, tell me why he's an asshole and maybe I can help.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  And he goes, well, you know, he made a like a young woman in our, on our finance team cry yesterday. And I was like, okay, yeah, that's kind of mean spirited for a CTO to do that. And I said, well, you know, so you're really kind of asking me like, not how to fire him, but just how to have a conversation with him about his behavior without him quit. That's what you're saying. And he's like, yeah. And I said, well, look, here's what I would say to him. I would say, Hey, you know, you're a fantastic director of engineering, but you're not an effective CTO. And, you know, if you want to be a director of engineering forever, like, we can just run just like this and it's no problem. You do a great job of managing your team.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  You get stuff done on time. You're great, but you're not effective with the rest of the organization. And that's what a CTO is. The CTO has got to marshal the resources of the whole company to get what he needs to get the job done. And if you go to like a junior person, like five levels below you and make her cry, you know, you're probably right, but like you're never going to get what you want out of her. So like you can't even be effective with her. Like, how are you going to be effective with like exerts? So if you want to learn how to do that, like, let's learn how to do that. But, you know, and if not, no problem, but just know that at some point I got to bring in the CTO. That's the way I would have the conversation with him. And that kind of got him to went, okay, now I can talk to him.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  And so, so much of like the mistakes that CEOs make are like, they just don't even know how to have the conversation. And so it's, it's a little bit like the mindset part is correct in that there is like a confidence part about it. Where you have to be able to kind of do things when you're not sure that you're right. But there's techniques and there's ideas and there's things in there that, you know, it's just harder than it looks. And the problem is the mistakes, like not talking to him is going to multiply. Right? Like, because now you're going to isolate engineering and nobody's going to like them. And you're going to have politics in the company and like, and, and, and, and. And then pretty soon people just don't even want to work there and you have high attrition. And then, you know, well, why the fuck do we have high attrition? And this and that and the other, and then the board's all upset and this.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  So it kind of snowballs on you if, if you can't deal with these things.

• 12:07Sam Parr?

  Man, this is so cool because I just read this book called The Motive. And the whole book is how to have a conversation like that. So basically like someone showed it and it's like small stuff. So it's like someone shows up too late for a meeting. They're not prepared. They made someone cry. And I remember reading this and I was like, I don't want to talk about this on the pod, maybe because I think I feel stupid that I'm having to learn like a script on how to like.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no.

• 12:28Sam Parr?

  And then I hear you talking about this and I'm like,

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:30Sam Parr?

  All right. I feel a little bit better because why, why is this conversation hard for me? I feel like this should be easy. I don't know what to say. I literally don't know what words to use for this to be the effective confrontation. And so I had to read a book. And so it's actually really cool to hear you describe that other people. I think you even said, I saw an other interview about Zuck and I think you referenced Sam Altman. You're like, I've seen inside these companies, they all face these like challenging situations, but they just don't know how to like communicate.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And people get stuck and, and you know, like nobody, there, there's no way to learn like how to be CEO of like a big company without kind of being CEO. And so you found a company and it starts growing and you don't know what you're doing and you make mistakes and it's very scary. And, uh, you know, it's easy to lose your confidence. And if you lose your confidence, you hesitate. And if you hesitate as CEO, then somebody's got to step into that vacuum. And then that's when it becomes very like political and dysfunctional.

• 13:29Sam Parr?

  All right. A few episodes ago, I talked about something and I got thousands of messages asking me to go deeper and to explain. And that's what I'm about to do. So I told you guys how I use chat GPT as a life coach or a thought partner. And what I did was I uploaded all types of amazing information. So I uploaded my personal finances, my net worth, my goals, different books that I like, issues going on in my personal life and businesses. I uploaded so much information. And so the output is that I have this GPT that I can ask questions that I'm having issues with in my life. Like, how should I respond to this email? What's the right decision, knowing that you know, my goals for the future, things like that.

• 14:10Sam Parr?

  And so I worked with HubSpot to put together a step-by-step process, showing the audience, showing you the software that I used to make this, the information that I had chat GPT ask me, all this stuff. So it's super easy for you to use. And like I said, I use this like 10 or 20 times a day. It's literally changed my life. And so if you want that, it's free. There's a link below. Just click it, enter your email and we will send you everything you need to know to set this up in just about 20 minutes. And I'll show you how I use it again, 10 to 20 times a day. All right. So check it out. The link is below in the description. Back to the episode.

• 14:43Shaan Puri?

  You've said before, like, having confrontation the right way is super important. And I nodded my head and then I was like, cool, I really don't know how to do that, though. So, okay, so what is the right way to have confrontation?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's complicated, but like, the first thing is you gotta stop thinking about yourself, right? So, you know, and it could be anything. It could be like firing somebody or getting them to change their behavior or whatever. You're gonna be saying something that they don't want to hear. And so I think people get caught up in, well, either I need to be a tough guy, or I need them to like me, or, you know, some other thing that's about you. But really, you have to go, okay, what am I gonna say to them? That isolates it to this thing that I'm really talking about, you know?

• 15:41Speaker 02

  So if I need them to change this behavior, like, how do I get them to hear that? In a way they can actually act on it without getting in their feelings? And, you know, in order to do that, you just have to be like very straightforward and you have to be open with how you feel about it. Like, if you think they're a shit bird, then you're probably gonna have to fire them anyway. But if you think they're otherwise good, then you kind of have to let them know that, but in a way where you're not clearly setting them up. You know, you're not giving them a shit sandwich. You're the greatest person in the world, but this is all fucked up and I love you. Like, that, like, people are on to that, like, it's just too simple.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  So you kind of have to, you know, you have to get to a very honest place with them and say, like, you know, we're working together on this. You're doing this, it's not working, it's not effective. And, you know, like, I can help you get it to be effective, but I need you to get it to be effective. Like, you have to get that message across. And a lot of it, you know, like people will accept things from you if they feel like you're basically telling them the truth. Like you're, I'm like completely open and honest about this shit. Like, I'm not, I'm not telling you it's worse than it is, and I'm not telling you it's better than it is. I'm telling you what it is. Uh, and, and this is, you know, when I said earlier about like, a lot of leadership is getting all the way to the truth. You have to sit with your cellphone to say like, what do I really think about this?

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Like, not what, like, motherfuckers were complaining about him, or this happened, or, you know, like, it hurt my feelings the way like this went down, like he's doing that in my company. You, you kind of have to get beyond that and go like, what's really true? Why do they do it? You know, can it be corrected? If it can be corrected, what would motivate them to correct it? Like, you, you have to get all the way to, to that. Otherwise, what happens is, you know, they're just gonna get upset and defensive, or like, you know, they're not gonna hear it because it's too soft. And it's like, well, yeah, like Ben kind of doesn't like that, but he doesn't really care.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Um, so, you know, how do you get into that, like, meaningful place where people can hear what you're talking about?

• 17:57Shaan Puri?

  And you've invested in and known for a long time, a lot of the tech, the biggest tech CEOs. And I would say the stereotype of the most successful tech founders is this sort of like, slightly autistic, very high IQ, lower EQ sort of persona. But that's not really what would be good at the thing you're talking about. And so, is it that that stereotype is just wrong? And that's not what you've seen when you've kind of been, you guys, I think, invested in Facebook early on, stuff like that? Like, is it that the stereotype is wrong? Is it that they learned these things? Is there like some, are they taking touchy feely at Stanford? Like, what's helping them be able to do this?

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Yes, I think some of these guys have like, much higher people understanding than you might think. Like, the ones who truly like, can't read people and understand people, don't get, like, they don't become Mark Zuckerberg. Uh, Mark Zuckerberg, like, his mom, by the way, is like a psychiatrist or psychologist. And like, he's actually pretty insightful. And, and you can see it, like, in the deals he's negotiated, the moves he's made, you know? Guys who are processing information at that rate of speed, you know, it's a little weird. Like you always feel like, okay, what the fuck is wrong with my clock? Like this guy's thinking faster than me, but so my very first conversation I had with Zach was, I think in 2007.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  And, you know, at that time, if you guys recall, you know, the Facebook traffic had flattened. And the current, the executive staff that he had at the time was trying to run a coup to force him to sell to Yahoo. So they, they were leaking all this stuff to Valley rag at the time. And Valley rag was, you know, calling for Zach to be fired and, you know, that whole stupidness.

• 19:43Sam Parr?

  And that was like that famous story where you like, didn't sell, right?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And he didn't sell, uh, but you know, right at that time. You know, his first question to me was, you know, should I, if I fired my executive team for the second time, would the board be nervous? I was like, well, you know, it's not, that's not even the question mark because, you know, if you're asking that question, then you know, you kind of have to do it because you, you can't succeed with them. So, you know, whether or not you can succeed without them is like, at least a question mark. Like you know, you're going to die with them.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  And I said, but like, you know, like, let's talk about like, why they're, they're doing this. You know, like, why has traffic been flat? And he said, well, he said, look, we doubled the size of the engineering team this year. We went from 400 to 800 engineers. Um, and we had, you know, the way the product is architected, we had like, a MySQL layer and then an API, and then the applications are built on the API. But a lot of the new engineers just wrote straight to MySQL and they like worked up the whole thing. And now it takes like 10 seconds to log in. And so traffic flattened because of that.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  And I was like, well, how do you train these guys? And he said, train these guys. And I never forget that. And I was like, oh, shit. I said, Zach, like, when you're 10 people, there's no knowledge in the company. Like, everybody just comes on and they jump in and they start working and so forth. But you get to like 800 people, 1,000 people. Like, you have a lot of knowledge that's in your company about like how the product works, how you check in code, everything. You actually have to teach people that because they don't know who to ask or how to learn that on their own. And so you have to do that. And like, just, you know, to show you what a like great CEO he ended up being. He created this two-month boot camp for like everybody in product management.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Every engineer who entered Facebook had to go through this thing, learn everything and so forth. So he was like, he, you know, like, he's like a phenomenal student of management. And, you know, before he became like, now, you know, now he's, I wouldn't call him a student. He's a great CEO. But like a lot of these guys, you know, can figure out the people part pretty fast, I would say. And like I said, the ones who truly don't understand people are, don't actually turn out to be good CEOs. Like, they don't get to that level. Like, you can, you know, you can make fun of Larry Page or Elon or Zach or so forth, but they are actually very smart about people, all three of them.

• 22:22Shaan Puri?

  You, you have these great stories. That's a great story. One, I think that's in your new book, is a story that I feel like is relevant to kind of any business size. So some of these, it's like, oh, well, my company's never going to be 20,000 people. So like, I don't really, I can't really relate to this. But one, I thought it was about collections. It was about collecting money, which I think is that, you know, whether you're like an accountant and you have to do this for your clients, or your 10 clients, or you're a big business. And I think it's the CEO of Nation.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Nation Builder, yeah.

• 22:52Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, can you tell this story? I thought this was a phenomenal story.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, you know, they're, they're, they're kind of, we're living on the edge. You know, they need every kind of thing collected possible. And, you know, she was just like, you know, cash collections would just be, you know, and there were all this dumb stuff that would happen, like they sent out the wrong kind of email or this and that, and, you know, they didn't get the thing and so forth. And I said, you know, I learned this technique actually from Andy, Andy Grove, where like if a project was off track, he would just go, okay, 8:00 AM every day, we're going to meet on it and I'm going to be in the meeting and I'm going to want answers. And what that meeting actually turns into is,

• 23:39Speaker 02

  you know, every dumb thing going on, you can just resolve very, very fast because people don't know who to ask, how to resolve it, you know, whether it's a problem and so forth. So I said, Leah, just like every day, 8:00 AM, get everybody in the cash collection team together and start the meeting by saying like, where's my money? Like, why haven't we collected it? And like make them explain to you why they haven't collected it. And you'll be shocked at why they haven't collected it. And sure enough, you know, it's like, well, we didn't know we could edit the email. And she's like, you didn't know you could edit the email? Like, but, but it's, you know, those kinds of things start popping up.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't know that I could do this because this is what we ought to be doing, but we're not doing it because I don't think I'm allowed to do it. And it's like, well, no, I'm the CEO, you're allowed to do it. And then that can unstick a like dumb project that's way off track or a process that's off track or so forth. So it's kind of like a different idea about management where, you know, the enemy as, as you grow, like communication becomes your biggest challenge. And so it's just a way to go like, okay, I'm going to manually, unscalable fix communication in this organization right now. And the amazing thing about it is it does tend to be very long lasting. Where like, once they get that, then, you know, it sustains.

• 25:08Shaan Puri?

  I had an experience with a founder you invested in. Do you know Suli Ali? He's one of my good buddies and you guys invested in Tiny.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

• 25:18Shaan Puri?

  He does this exact thing. The founder emailed us and was like, hey, you know, we're going to start raising money. You know, we really need to raise money, so it's important. And I would just love to pick your brain on what it was like a very like, can I pick your brain? Would you like to go get coffee for this? My house is on fire. And we were like, wait, wait, just to clarify, is the house on fire? He's like, yeah, the house is on fire. So we said, okay, well, let's meet like now. Why are you emailing me? Let's just talk right now. And so he jumps on the call and like, okay, what do you have so far? You know, let's raise the money. And he's like, ah, here's the pitch deck. And basically in the first 30 minutes, we just gave him like, hey, here's three things. Let's go like, these are the three most important things you got to change. This is this part of the story is broken. You're missing this information and you know, you're not, you're framing it the wrong way.

• 26:03Shaan Puri?

  You got to frame it this way. And he's like, okay, this is so helpful. Wow. Thank you, guys. Would love to touch base again next week. And Suli was like, next week? How long do you think it'll take you to make those three changes? He's like, well, he's like, how about we meet today at 3pm? And you show me and we did two a days with them. And I, it kind of broke my brain a little bit because there was like this invisible wall. As a business person, like you don't meet twice in a day. Like that would be a faux pas. You know, like it's like bad manners. It's like fuck your manners when it's like, was this a big problem or not? Like just clarify that for me because if it is a big problem, then I'll just keep showing up and saying, okay, now what? Okay, now what? And okay, and if you just do that for three days, that like all of the excuses get squeezed away is what I found.

• 26:46Shaan Puri?

  Like all the excuses suddenly disappear and you get to the brass tacks about what's going on. It was amazing.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  That's definitely right. No, no, that's a, you know, Suli and I actually had a lot of conversations about he, he went through a lot of crises in that, so he knows.

• 27:02Shaan Puri?

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• 27:26Sam Parr?

  Can I ask you about confidence? Um, you give a talk with a bunch of your portfolio companies about, I think I saw you say that like, they don't fail due to lack of competence, but a lack of confidence.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  I would say the number one reason why a founder fails at the CEO job is some kind of lack of confidence, crisis of confidence, whatever it is, that causes them to hesitate, basically. Okay, I should do this and I can see that I should do this, but I'm not sure I should do this, so I'm gonna wait.

• 28:00Sam Parr?

  If you had to teach a class on how to improve someone's confidence, is, do you have like a framework or some bullet points that you would, that you would stand by?

• 28:10Speaker 02

  It ends up being like, at the end of the day, confidence is personal and you have to feel it yourself to have it. Like, I can't, um, you know, it's like the Wizard of Oz. It's like, I, you know, I can give you like a clock and tell you it's a heart or whatever, but like, at some point, you've got to believe that. And the thing that causes the crisis in confidence is, you know, okay, you invent something, you hire a bunch of people, you make a decision, it's wrong, people really suffer from it. You feel horrible because you're like, wow, I don't know what I'm doing and I made a mistake and it had real consequences.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Like, most people in life don't have a situation like that until they become CEO. And so then, you know, it's like, well, how do I, how do I recover that? And so, like, a lot of, the idea of the firm is like, well, you know, what if you could call anybody? Like, how would that make you feel? Like, what if you could call anybody, you know, in the White House, in Congress, in, you know, like, any executive, you know, any kind of big company CEO?

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Be able to have a conversation, you know, like, what if we could build that network for you? So that was kind of the idea behind the platform. And then, you know, we would do, I used to have this event, which I should probably bring back, but I ran out of room in my backyard called the CEO barbecue, where we would bring all the CEOs for the portfolio. And then we would just like, put like, very famous people around them. So we had like, Zuck and Larry Page and Kanye all at a barbecue. And they're at the barbecue. And there's no like, talks, there's no business agenda, there's no nothing, there's no even toast, right? Like, it's just a barbecue. And so it was just to make them feel like, oh shit, like, I know Kanye, like, I'm, I have to be somewhat important. Like, so, so you're trying to like,

• 30:05Speaker 02

  imbue this feeling that like, I may not totally know what I'm doing, but I should be CEO.

• 30:10Shaan Puri?

  But I'm at a barbecue with Kanye.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:12Shaan Puri?

  So I can't be totally dumb.

• 30:14Sam Parr?

  What about, what about the inverse? When you look at a CEO and you're like, oh, they have just like, hit this fork in the road. Now confidence is going to go horribly, is going to go down and it's going to be their demise. What decisions do those people make? Like, what are the commonalities between the people who lose it that way?

• 30:29Shaan Puri?

  Sort of like the Charlie Munger, like, tell me where I'm going to die, so I know not to go there, right? What would be the decisions I would make to take me off the path?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  I would say the big thing is, it's almost like a lack of decision, right? Like, it's a hesitation. In football, they always say, like, trust, you have to trust your eyes, because you could be really fast. But if you don't start running when you see the thing, if you wait, then you're not fast. And that's kind of what it's like for CEOs. Like, you could be really, really smart, but if you wait too long before you pull the trigger, you're not smart anymore. It's too like, and there, there's all kinds of like, excuses people tell themselves to not make a decision. So for example, like, one of the

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Biggest ones on an executive like is, well, if you know, we made such a big deal when we hired him, like, what is the press gonna say? Or what are the people in the company gonna say? Or, you know, I don't have time to hire a new person to do the job that this guy's fucking up with. You know, like, these kinds of, there's all these reasons not to make the decision. And they're all just, if you think about them for more than like, five minutes, you go, well, that doesn't make any fucking sense, because this guy's like fucking up the whole org. Like, who gives a fuck what the press says? Like, you just get rid of him, like, start rebuilding now.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  You know, like, it's not, if he's doing a bad job, like, no job is better than a bad job. Like, I think we all know that. And everything kind of ends up like that. I don't know enough to make the decision. Like, I didn't give him enough of a chance, this and that, the other. So it's, it's kind of that lack of confidence that generally causes a no decision, where there really needs to be a decision, is, is the main, I would say that's the common pattern.

• 32:21Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, so in the two examples you gave, the first one was like, ah, the CTO, blah, blah, blah. And that's kind of like, avoiding the conversation would be the mistake there. And then, in this one, like, avoiding the decision would be the mistake.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to, you know, I wrote a post a long time ago, so, called, you know, run out the pain in darkness. You have to run out the pain in darkness. You can't run away from it. If you run away from it, it's all bad.

• 32:45Sam Parr?

  You're pretty good at titling blog posts and books. I think, you know, the hard things, the hard things are like badass. But I think you said that, I think, in the, in the publishing industry, typically the author's title is not the winning title. And I think you were like bragging that, you're like, that's my title. I came up with it.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I, I, well, you know, because I didn't need a book. Like, I didn't actually want to write the book. They asked me to write the book, the publisher. So I felt like I could do what I wanted, so I, I called it what I wanted, yeah.

• 33:13Shaan Puri?

  What um, what do you, what excites you? So this, you know, a lot of the stuff we talked about is like the hard stuff, the pain. And uh, but nobody gets into this for just the pain, right? Nobody gets into this to do, the pain is just a sort of necessary that we, we go through to get to do the good stuff. Uh, I'm just curious, what are you really excited about right now? Like what are either, you know, rabbit holes you're going down? Cool stuff you've seen that you can't have been able to forget? Like what's really cool and interesting to Ben Horowitz?

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Well, so one of the most exciting things that's going on now, um, is you know, like kind of it's well known that the United States has kind of fallen behind in defense, manufacturing, rare earth minerals, all these kinds of uh things. But what's been very exciting is like there are startups that are like, oh, I'll solve that for America. And so like we have a company uh that we just funded recently, Periodic Labs, which is using AI to do like novel material science to kind of enable better kind of design of everything from like rockets to missiles to, you know, all sorts of things.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  And then we have a company Cobalt Metals that is basically using AI. So they take a dirt sample and they use AI to analyze the dirt sample and they can tell you, oh yeah, there's gonna be like, you know, copper below that, um, you know, whatever, a mile down into the earth. And so, you know, these kinds of techniques where you're kind of using tech to go, okay, now we're going to catch up fast. Is been like very, very exciting, I would say.

• 34:47Shaan Puri?

  My, my view as a founder on the ground is just that sometimes you see something and like I said, it breaks like an imaginary wall you had. And um, and sometimes things become cool and cool, although we tried to not like follow trends, sometimes you could use your psychology for you. Rather than against you. And so the idea, you know, seeing what Elon has done, where it's like, oh, he goes into these really hard spaces and does these like, like hardware, hard tech, literal, literal rocket science. Right? And it's sort of unafraid of that or, you know, Andoril going in and doing, you know, weapons and defense tech and making that cool to be kind of patriotic in that way. Is that what it was? Is that what it took? Or was there something else to it?

• 35:25Speaker 02

  You know, there's a lot, they're very challenging companies to build in some ways. But on the other hand, Yeah, it's a good time to do that because Elon has, I mean, God bless Elon for showing that it was possible. So now, whereas like only Elon could have financed Tesla, normal people can start to finance these things now because Elon has shown that it's possible. So it's a little bit like the four-minute mile in that way, I would say. But yeah, I mean, like, you know, the things that, yeah, and even in like public safety, you look at something like, you know, Flock Safety, in a way, technologically, it's not

• 36:08Speaker 02

  nearly as complicated as some of the others, like as an Androl or something like that. But it's very, very powerful. I mean, you know, they really make both kind of policing, being a citizen, and even being a criminal more safe because all of the sudden, you're using AI to provide real intelligence. So, you know, for example, in Las Vegas, where we deployed it, a huge problem, a huge problem in like police violence, police getting killed, are traffic stops.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  And a big reason for that is somebody reports there's a, you know, a 1998 Honda Acura that's driving, that's brown, that kidnapped a baby. Okay, so that's a real situation. But like, that description is usually wrong. Like, the description of the actual car is usually wrong. So you have Flock Safety, you have the exact match. So the difference between a cop going into a situation where they may have the wrong guy, and if they have the wrong guy, the guy is, could get very agitated, and then you have a bad situation.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Or they know 100%, this guy, he is in a car that we know is the car, and there's a baby in the back that's not his. Okay, you're going in with a whole, you're not sending a single person in there with a gun, coming off their motorcycle, like, you've got a whole team that's going to make sure that that person is apprehended safely and correctly, and the baby is saved.

• 37:44Shaan Puri?

  I've heard Flock's this amazing thing. Is it drones? Is it cameras? What are they doing?

• 37:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's primarily like a camera system where AI will basically so somebody does something, you know, they grab the car on the camera. That car shows up on another camera anywhere in the city and they're like, oh, there it is. And actually, that's how they caught, interestingly, the Tesla terrorist who set the Tesla ship on fire in Las Vegas was he came in earlier to case the place. Flock Safety picked up the car. They saw the car come back at night and they were like, oh, we know whose car that is and they just went and arrested him.

• 38:24Sam Parr?

  Did you guys see that ad? I think it was like two weeks ago. I was trying to find it. It went viral on Twitter, but it was basically, I believe it was a solar company. Was it a solar company where they're recruiting employees? And they had a whole website just dedicated to the recruitment aspect of just they needed more staff. And they bought an ad in the New York Times, I believe, or some newspaper. And it was like an old man sitting with like, it looked like his grandson overlooking a mountain. And they were like overlooking, I think it was solar panels. I'm not exactly sure. But it was like, do you really want to tell your grandkids that you spent your entire 30s and 40s building just B2B software? It was great. And it like, and there's this whole trend amongst young people on Twitter of like being more traditional and things like that.

• 39:07Sam Parr?

  And I think that to answer your question, Sean, about Andro and Elon, I think that it's kind of been like a perfect spiral or a perfect mix of like, people seeing Elon and Palmer do these interesting things. And also just like getting sick of just building B2B software or something, you know, that's just a stereotype for what's boring. That's may or may not be true. But like, you know, like seeing this, like there could be more out there.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  I think that the software had to get good enough to, of course, make.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Make these other things possible, which is, you know, and it's amazing that we're at that time where you can really imagine changing the world in all kinds of ways.

• 39:47Shaan Puri?

  You, you get to see a lot of pitches of the smartest people in the world telling you what the future is going to look like in five years. And so you have this like element of your job that's a little bit like a time traveler. So you, you probably have a better sense of what the world looks, nobody has a perfect sense, but you have a better sense of what the world looks like, you know, five, seven, 10 years from now. You don't know exactly when, you don't know who's going to do it. What's broken your brain, either from a demo or a story pitch that you've heard, you know, sometime in the last year or so, that, that the rest of us will experience, you know, sometime in the future?

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the things that, um, I mean, everybody's talking about embodied AI and robots and so forth, and rightly so. But I would say like in the creative space, I'm starting to realize like this AI video and so forth. It's not like making the old thing more efficient. It's a new medium. It's an actual new thing. In the same ways that like movies weren't plays, uh, you know, AI video is not video. The stories that you can tell are completely different because you can do things that you just, you know, without a $200 million budget, you had had no chance

• 40:59Speaker 02

  of doing. And now it's like no problem. And I think that's going to be like very, very, very interesting. And then the, how well it's working on like existing stuff. So people, you know, the people who are on the cutting edge of the movie industry are now, you know, they're able to do like whole movie scenes or edit or change their movie, have the AI actor do the, uh, do this, do the third cut at a level of quality that even the actor doesn't know it wasn't them doing the acting and, and that kind of thing. So it's, I think it's going to change dramatically again. And, and there's going to be kind of white

• 41:40Speaker 02

  space for not only new creatives, but new entertainment entrepreneurs and so forth that nobody is really imagining now.

• 41:48Sam Parr?

  Is there any AI content that you consume as a fan?

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no. Well, like, you know, I've been watching that the one with the cat was pretty good over the, over the weekend. The cat playing all the instruments and the lady coming out. Unfortunately, like, you gotta cut that racket out. Do you guys see that one?

• 42:08Shaan Puri?

  Was that on Sora?

• 42:09Speaker 02

  That was pretty good. Yeah, I think it's a Sora video.

• 42:11Shaan Puri?

  Ben, do you mess around on Suno at all with AI music?

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, Suno and, you know, Eleven Labs has a model and Udeo's got a very good model. So there, there's, there's a few different really good models. Like, I feel like I could have a music career again. That's gonna be very, very interesting to me because it's sort of, like, one thing that hip hop showed was, so, people don't really realize this, but this is something Quincy Jones pointed out to me before he passed. He said, you know, Ben, like, hip hop started like exactly when they canceled all the music programs in schools. Like, it was the same, the exact same time when people didn't learn to play instruments in schools. That's when, that is exactly when hip hop began. And hip hop

• 43:00Speaker 02

  kind of freed you as a, somebody who was like a musical talent from actually having to learn to play an instrument. Which, you know, and, and even for the producers, right? Like, you had a drum machine, you had samples. So you could hear what you liked and play it, but you didn't need to be a virtuoso. And that kind of opened up a world that we hadn't had before. And I think AI music is kind of that on steroids.

• 43:29Shaan Puri?

  I don't know if you guys know, the number one song in the country right now is an AI country artist. So Walk My Walk.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:35Shaan Puri?

  And the first, I think the first AI artist that got a record deal recently, like, you know, so this is definitely what the future

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:42Shaan Puri?

  looks like is people who, non musicians, it's just like, you know, Repli and others make it so that you don't have to be a coder to make apps.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:50Shaan Puri?

  And now you don't have to be a musician to make music. And I don't think people really understand how big of a deal that is. Like, my, my personal trainer, who's been in the fitness world his whole life.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:59Shaan Puri?

  Has been in a rabbit hole making, he's probably in the top 0.1% of AI creators in the world right now.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 44:06Shaan Puri?

  Creating music. And he's like, got like a full band. He's like his own record label. And every day he's up till two in the morning. And he knows these programs inside and out. And because it wasn't really accessible to somebody who didn't have You know, musical talent before to be able to make music.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Right. There's a big difference between taste and creativity and being a virtuoso violinist. Right? Like those, those don't necessarily have to be the same thing. And it's great that, you know, people, you know, whatever, practice violin for three hours a day and like get amazing at it and all that kind of thing. But it's pretty neat to have a world where like, okay, if you can just do this part, you can still play.

• 44:53Sam Parr?

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• 45:38Sam Parr?

  And they're hard to find. The biggest risk is not failing. You have a company and it's working, you're going to be fine. But the biggest risk is waking up 10 years from now and saying, shit, I barely grew in business and in life. And for people like you who are ambitious, wasted potential and regret is what we want to help you to avoid. We have made so many of these groups and we have 1,000 plus members. And I know this stuff actually works. It can change your life, it changed mine, and I know it will change yours. So check it out, joinhampton.com.

• 46:10Sam Parr?

  Sean, can you ask, you have this really cool line about the rules of culture and making them memorable.

• 46:16Shaan Puri?

  Well, yeah, so when I'm doing the research, one thing that stands out is like you talk about culture, you talk about like, and which is normally, culture is like, I just fall asleep because it is so over talked about in the business world. It's like, you gotta really tell me something new.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Over talked about without anybody saying anything.

• 46:32Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Culture, culture.

• 46:33Shaan Puri?

  Right. And it's like, oh, so cool. Tell me your values of like integrity. Like, all right, great. Glad to hear it. I'm not, I was worried it was gonna be the opposite, right? Like, it doesn't really tell you anything. And, you know, when you go walk into the company, the stuff on the wall doesn't match the stuff you see happening within the four walls. So it's just, you get sort of disillusioned in a way. But when you see somebody doing something interesting, or you, or somebody actually pulling it off, which of course there are examples, I get interested. And so one thing that I thought was cool, a nuance that I hadn't really heard before was you were talking about how at A6 C N Z, you kind of take time to drive the culture. Like, I think in the new onboarding, you like, I do a culture session, one hour, they sign something at the end. And one of the nuances, I thought that was interesting, was you said, my rule for writing the kind of like, the culture rules is it has to have some shock value.

• 47:18Shaan Puri?

  Like, it has to give the other person like a, what the hell are you talking about type of reaction if it's gonna be memorable. I think that idea was, if it's not memorable, it's never gonna be remembered or used. So you have to do something to make it memorable. Can you talk about your theory around this?

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, I mean, it kind of comes down to what you do every day, right? Like, it's a daily habit. So, you know, this idea that you put cultural values on the wall, and then in the once a year, a performance review, you say, do you follow the culture? It's like, that, that means absolutely nothing, right? It's nothing. And so it's like, well, what do you do every day? And so like, one of the things we do every day is like, we meet with entrepreneurs. So like, what's a rule that sets the culture around that? So it's like, well, if you're late for that meeting, it's $10 a minute. It's like, well, $10 a minute, like, well, what if I have to go to the bathroom? Yeah, you owe me $50. I don't care. Um, you know, what if I had an important phone call? Okay, you owe me $100. Like, I don't care you had an important phone call.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Well, like, why am I paying to work here? You know, well, because building a company is extremely hard. And culturally, we want to have the ultimate respect for that. And we don't want to waste any entrepreneur's time. And so that's your most important thing. So you have to plan to do that.

• 48:32Sam Parr?

  You guys have a fine now. You're talking, this is a real A16Z.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. So every time I have to, like, go to the meeting, you know, like, I have to think about that because I've got to be on time. I got to fucking plan my day. So like, there's not, I'm not back to back on that one. I got to be on time. Otherwise, you know, I'm going to be embarrassed and all that kind of thing. And so, well, why, and why am I doing that? And then that, okay, if you do that, that's a habit that makes you go, okay, like, no, I'm going to respect what this is. I know how hard it is to build a company. I may not even know how hard it is, but I know that, like, somebody here thinks it's hard enough that I have to show up on time.

• 49:10Sam Parr?

  So can you keep, can you tell some more of those interesting, like, you know, the tardiness paying thing? That's pretty cool. What are some other?

• 49:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so as well, second one is like, if you, um, if you talk smack about an entrepreneur on X, you're fired. It doesn't matter if they're in the portfolio or not. You're just, that's it. Uh, and why is that? You know, well, culturally, first of all, we're dream builders. We're not dream killers. If you want to do something bigger than yourself and make the world a better place, I don't care what it is. I don't care if I think it's stupid. I'm for that. I'm not against that. I am for that. And I don't care if, like, Sequoia funded you or Benchmark funded you. I'm for that. Like, go get it. Like, we're a pro entrepreneur. And then, you know, kind of related to that, I don't want to give anybody credit for making

• 50:02Speaker 02

  themselves look smart by making somebody else look stupid. Like, I don't want to give anybody, like, a gold star for saying that guy's, you know, making, selling dollars for 85 cents. Oh, I'm so clever. You know, like, fuck you. Like, nah, we're not doing that here. And so it's, it's that kind of thing where it's like, oh, that seems like a harsh punishment, but I get it. I get it because I've heard it and and I understand it. And so then that's like a way to kind of show up behaviorally daily as opposed to, you know, like, look, here's a problem with integrity. What does that mean? Right? Like integrity only matters when it's tested.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Everybody has integrity. Everybody's honest until it's tested. And then when it's tested, very few people are right. Like when it costs you money, when it costs you a deal, when it costs you your marriage. Are you honest then?

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Because that's the actual thing. And so you can't just have it in the abstract. You have to say like, what behaviors do you have to have to work here? You know, how responsive do you have to be? These things end up making the culture much more so than like a value. Or like one thing I really like is the the Samurai called them virtues. They didn't call them values. It's like, these are the virtues, like this is your way of being. This isn't like some fucking, it's not a set of ideas. It's a set of actions. A culture is a set of actions.

• 51:41Sam Parr?

  Listen to this, Sean. So if you go to a16z.com slash about, you'll see their values. And I just want to read like, I've never seen this before. So I'm just going to read a couple of them. But the six one, the six out of seven, it's we play to win. Our culture only matters if we're important. And in order to be important, we must win. We are the best firm in the world, so we expect to win.

• 52:03Sam Parr?

  There it's just like, that's fantastic. I love that. And that's, I don't know if controversial is the right word, but it's polarizing, right? Not a lot of people are into that, but that's, that's badass. And then you say, you have another one that I really like. We only do, we only do first class business and only in a first class way. I think that's a really.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  I actually stole that phrasing from JP Morgan. So called, he said it in court, they were accusing him of some kind of like crazy like market manipulation.

• 52:31Sam Parr?

  You're talking about the, the JP.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:33Sam Parr?

  The, the JP Morgan, yeah. Yeah, I think that was, I think I read about that line in the, Andrew Sorkin's got that like 1928 or 29 book. And I think he says that, but that's great.

• 52:43Shaan Puri?

  So, but, okay, so, but like, when I go to this site and I see these, I'm like, okay, this is kind of like, these are like the high level principles. But you, what you were saying just now was a little bit different. You were like, hey, look.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Well, there's got to be behaviors that support the principles. Yeah.

• 52:56Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. So you, you, you basically were like, what are the daily situations and actions where we have a choice? We either show up this way or we show up this way and we're going to show up this way. And sometimes with a penalty, punishment or praise based on like the extreme behavior, version of that behavior with a no tolerance policy. Right? Like, and I think there's this great military quote that you have in your book.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Well, if you, um, if you see something below standard and you don't correct it, you set a new standard. And, and that's a, that's very true. And that's why they have to be specific because if they're not specific, you can't enforce it. How do you enforce? Like you don't have integrity. That just gets weaponized. It's like, that guy doesn't have integrity. He's not following the cultural value. You know, he doesn't, why does he have integrity? Well, he lied to me. Well, let's go talk to him. Oh no, I didn't lie to you. Did it a lot. Like, so it's not that. Whereas, oh, you just put out that tweet.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Like that's clearly against the cultural value. Like, uh, there's no backing off that.

• 53:55Shaan Puri?

  So like, you know, Facebook famously had move fast and break things, which I think is like.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  That was really good, by the way.

• 54:00Shaan Puri?

  Hall of fame.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:02Shaan Puri?

  That's a, that's a Hall of Famer, but like, that's kind of the, you know, one of the few that I know.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  I thought about that for months. Like, I'm like, move fast and break, because it's so counterintuitive. It's like, well, you know, you want me to break things? I'm an engineer. I make things. I don't break things. Um, but it was just his way of saying like. There is no excuse for not fucking ship it. Like, we're going fast.

• 54:22Sam Parr?

  But they don't have that anymore, do they? Is that still a thing?

• 54:24Speaker 02

  Well, you know, they got bigger and then, you know, I think speed wasn't their main thing that they were trying to achieve.

• 54:31Shaan Puri?

  I think they literally changed it to like, move fast.

• 54:33Sam Parr?

  It's move fast.

• 54:34Shaan Puri?

  Ability and stable, like with stable infrastructure and reliability.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 54:39Shaan Puri?

  Somehow lost its edge. So have you seen anything like that move fast and break things? Or just a behavior when you walked into the Airbnb office and you noticed something?

• 54:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, so, and you know, Amazon had this thing where they used to make the desks out of like doors and two by fours.

• 54:56Sam Parr?

  I tried doing that, by the way. It's, it's way cheaper to get a desk.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  It's way cheaper to get a desk, but like, I think the idea back in whatever the late 90s when they did that was like, like, we're not wasting any money. Yeah. You know, and that kind of thing, which is, you know, those markers are, are very, very powerful. Like, one of my favorite ones was actually from the Haitian Revolution when Toussaint Louverture basically made a rule. He's like, you can't cheat on your wife, which was like so absurd because here they are, they're in a colony, you know, a French colony. They're, you know, the British, the Spanish, the French, they're all raping and pillaging and doing all this stuff, all these armies. And these guys like can't cheat on their woks. But that little cultural idea that said, look, this is about trust. I gotta be able to trust you.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  And like, the people have to be able to trust you ended up basically really influencing the war. So one of the things that was like very surprising, I think, to people who read about the Haitian Revolution was you know, here's a slave army taking on these European colonies. And the white women in the colony supported Toussaint against like the French. And you go like, well, why'd they do that? Because they didn't rape. They didn't pillage like Toussaint, like these guys were like half naked soldiers or slaves. And they weren't doing any of that. They were super polite. They were, they behaved in a certain way. And the legend is, so he was Toussaint Louverture, but slaves didn't have last names. So where did Louverture come from?

• 56:30Speaker 02

  And so the story is Napoleon, who really was pissed at him.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Brought his generals together and it's like, how in the fuck can you not get this slave? Like, how can you not defeat this slave? And they're like, well, we get him backed up, we get him surrounded. And then all of a sudden, there's an opening and he became Toussaint Loverture, Toussaint the opening. And the opening, a lot of people say was created by these townspeople, these, you know, these women who were just like, oh, fuck, we're for him. We're for that army. I don't give a fuck about your army. We're for that army. So like, culture can be like, super influential.

• 57:07Shaan Puri?

  That's a great story. That's really cool. You mentioned Amazon. Did you see Jeff Bezos got a new startup?

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Oh, I did. Did Jeff got a new startup?

• 57:15Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. You didn't see this announcement? They, Project Prometheus, they raised an initial seed round of six billion to. Is that really, is that true? They called it a seed round? Yeah, it's the first round of funding. So six billion dollars raised and they got a hundred people and they're building AI for like the, the physical world. So it's not just robots, but basically like the manufacturing of airplanes and ships and things like that. So they're basically saying, how do we use AI?

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:43Shaan Puri?

  And like sort of advanced manufacturing, I think is the, I think is the idea, but obviously they're a little tight on details. But that's pretty cool. He's like back in a operational role for the first time, which is cool.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I, I think that, by the way, like, how great is it that the logistics genius of our time is back at it and going to help us like get back in the manufacturing game like that?

• 58:08Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  You know, those things are just incredible to me. And I think all of us were a little sad when Jeff was just living his best life, just because he's, is so talented. So this is very great news.

• 58:21Shaan Puri?

  I loved it. I was like, huh, this guy's having fun. He's getting jacked. He's showing a different, uh, you know, a new North Star also, which like has, has kind of also taken over the tech industry.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  And by the way, like whatever, like, you know, people always make you into cartoon when you get to that level. He is, you know, for sure, like a top two or three best CEO in the last 40 years. So.

• 58:45Sam Parr?

  You're a bit surprising to me because I've read all your books. I know about your background. Basically, like you have like guided the people who have shaped destiny. You've also shaped destiny yourself, but like you're, you've done all these amazing things and you're a shockingly fun hang. Normally, I think, and like you know about hip hop and all this stuff. Normally, the people who have outsized results typically have very strange personalities. And they're like a little quirky and I'm sure you have your quirks, but you just seem shockingly well balanced for how not normal your success is. Is there anything in your day to day life that you think that is, would surprise probably like the average person? Or are there any tendencies that you have that you recognize probably aren't at all normal?

• 59:30Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I would say probably the thing, the thing that my daughter always says that is unusual about me. And I think it came from like the beginning of my, you know, like I had, I am different than the modern people. Like I was married when I was 22. I had three kids by the time I was 25. Like I kind of had to grow up fast. And, you know, and then I had the company and was trying to raise the kids and the company and, you know, I didn't have money for nannies or anything. So like it was a lot of that, but what she says to me, she's like, Dad, like you're like at the top of Maslow's hierarchy. Like you're very zen with all this.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  And like I take things for what they are. I don't, like, I'm pretty good at not being unemotional, but not letting like my emotional reaction control my behavior.

• 1:00:21Sam Parr?

  Were you always that way or did you become?

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no, definitely not. Like I think it was just all the trauma that like forced me to learn that.

• 1:00:28Sam Parr?

  What age did, what made you calm down? Was it age? Was it kids? Was it success? Was it like, look, I've made it. Everything else is just icing on the cake. I don't care.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Well, hey, I think it was the combination of the kids and the company, you know, the first company I founded, LoudCloud, which then became Opsware, was so difficult that I never.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Like in life since then, like we like, we've had difficulties building the firm, whatever, but like they never got like a rise out of me that could compare to, you know, what I'd already been through. So it's almost like I, I feel like it's almost like, I know guys, my friend Oliver Stone was in Vietnam and like you could tell everything about him was, I'm not in Vietnam anymore. So much of his life is defined by not being in Nam. And like, I do feel like I don't want to compare it to war because people always criticize me for my war metaphors, but it's kind of like that feeling where it's like, okay, I've been through that. I'm just looking at the world differently now.

• 1:01:39Sam Parr?

  And I bet it. And like, I'm sure you had some sense of like, all right, I've accomplished something like, I feel good. Maybe I'm playing with house money a little bit with, with everything else.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a little house money. And then it's a little like, all you can do is deal with the thing that it is. You can't stop it from having happen. It happens and that now you have to deal with it.

• 1:01:58Shaan Puri?

  Were there any other sort of wisdom accelerators? So you have these formative experiences, right? You got three kids in three years or whatever. And you're by the time you're 25 and then you're trying to build the startup and everything you face kind of like the back against the wall moments. Were there any other formative things like, you know, for example, in my life, I went to like a Tony Robbins seminars, like, you know, I sort of got five years of wisdom in a weekend type of, type of.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, he's very good at like dealing with your own psychology.

• 1:02:24Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. Or you spend a summer doing something, or you read a book at the right time, or you get the right message at the right time. And you have a moment where you just decide like from now on X. I guess like, I'm just curious, was there any, if I just think about like formative moments besides the kids and besides LoudCloud, what, what else would there have been?

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Okay. So when I was a kid, I was in this relay race and it was like, it was a very big deal for me, you know, like it was whatever the track made. And we came in second in the relay race. My father wasn't at the race, but we came in second because, and the team that came in first dropped the baton and like didn't pick it up. The guy just ran without the baton and they gave him first place and they didn't penalize him. And so I was, you know, my father said, how'd you do in the race? And I was like, well, we came in second, but it wasn't fair. And I was going to explain to him why. And he said, stop right there. He said, life isn't fair.

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  And that shocked me so much at the time, but it really stuck with me. And it's the single best lesson that I ever got in my life was life isn't fair. And I see young people wreck themselves so much because they have an expectation that something about life is going to be fair. Like, nothing about life is fair. It's not fair where you're born. It's not fair what race you are. It's not fair like what your parents did. It's not fair like the job interviews aren't fair, like nothing. The tests aren't fair. Nothing is fair in life. And so the way you succeed is you don't have that expectation. You just deal with it as it is.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  And I think that everybody who tries to or who like thinks, well, like, I wasn't treated fairly or this isn't fair, like that is devastating. You know, like for sure. I mean, the whole time, you know, when a lot of cloud and the dot com crashed and half our customers went out of business, I never crossed my mind to go, this isn't fair. It was just like, okay, I have to deal with it. And that is, I would say, the single best piece of advice and way of looking at life that you can have is just, it is what it is. And now do what you can do with it being as it is.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  It was very important.

• 1:04:51Sam Parr?

  You've referenced a lot of really cool stuff. The Haiti story. I've heard you talk about history a lot. Outside of work, work-related stuff, what interests you right now? You know, Sean and I, we like to talk about just like, just fun stuff that you're into. I'm constantly reading about World War II. I like that. What about you? Is there anything that you're kind of like being obsessed about?

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I do have this, I'll give a plug for it. So I have this charity that I created with my wife called the Paid in Full Foundation, which basically, you know, is kind of this idea on a whim, but we give pensions to the old hip hop guys. So, you know, they got a hundred thousand dollars a year. And, and then we have this award show for them, you know, where we name them grand masters and so forth. And, you know, that's the first winners were Rakim and Scarface. And then, you know, we had Grandmaster Kaz and Shante and Kumo D and so forth. And then Grand Poobah and, and Kool G Rap.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  And this year, you know, we added this thing, the Quincy Jones Award to the guys who got sampled the most and we gave it to George Clinton. And the event was so, I'm still thinking about it was so amazing because, so George Clinton knows all the words to follow the leader. And so he's on stage and Quincy Jones says, can you rap follow? And he's raps follow the leader. And Rakim came out and rapped it with him. So we've got George Clinton and Rakim. And then Dr. Dre bought a table to the event. And he like couldn't help himself. He goes up on stage just to say, look, I have no career without George Clinton. And it was just so amazing to have like all these guys that were so important, that influenced so many people.

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  Just being that appreciative of each other was, I was like, you know, and it's kind of, and you know, hip hop, of course, is so competitive and, and, you know, they're always going at each other and so forth. But for them to be at that point where they could just go, man, you guys meant so much to me. And, and that kind of thing was, it was just very special.

• 1:07:03Shaan Puri?

  That's so cool. Yeah. That, that idea of pensions for, for, for the OGs is, is so great. Well, did that just come on a whim? Or you're just at lunch one day and you're like, why don't they, you know, how does that idea, because that one liner gives you the clarity, right? Gives you the clarity of where to go.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  So, so I was listening to the, the H to the Izzo Jay-Z song where he says, I'm overcharging for what they did to the cold crush. And it got me thinking, it's like, who was the cold crush? And it turns out, right? It's Grandmaster Kaz and Grandmaster Kaz.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Wrote, um, Rap Was The Light, basically, uh, and they stole it from him. And they stole it from him so nasty that they didn't change the word. So Big Bang Hank raps, if I'm the G R A A N D, right, right, N D M A S C E R. That's Grandmaster Kaz. That's his, he's rapping about his name, not Big Bang Hank. Big Bang Hank is the not named Grandmaster. Why is he calling himself Grandmaster? Cause he stole his fucking rhyme and he never got paid and he never got credit for it. And everybody in hip hop knows this, uh, and Grandmaster Kaz, by the way, like if you meet him, he's a stunk. Like he's the coolest guy in the room. He dresses amazing. He's like super articulate. He can still rap like crazy today.

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  He's 66 years old or 65, something like that. And I was like, wow, like we ought to go back and fix that. And then, you know, uh, Rakim was like on tour at these little clubs and so forth. I was like, that's Rakim. Like, how are people treating him like that? So that was the idea. I was like, we ought to just do it. Um, you know, I'm like getting it set up with the IRS and all that stuff is like extremely complicated. But yeah, it's been, it's been really, really, I would say amazing. And like, just like an unbelievable epilogue. So Kaz at the last one, um, tells me, he's like, Ben, I bought a house. I was like, oh, that's amazing, Kaz. You've got a house. He's like, no, Ben, it's the first time in my life I haven't lived in the projects.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  Like Grandmaster Kaz, the guy who wrote the first great hip hop song, has never not lived in the projects. Like, how crazy is that? And, you know, now here he is with a house in Pennsylvania and he's got berries in his backyard and the whole thing. Uh, he's got berries in his backyard.

• 1:09:22Sam Parr?

  It is pretty nuts. The people who are like, invent the shit, don't get it. Like, for example, Sean and I love UFC and like, we see like the early UFC events and these guys are badasses.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  They make anything, yeah.

• 1:09:32Sam Parr?

  And they're getting $2,000 to show up. And they still come to like the Legends Awards and they still are talking and you're like, damn dude, this guy probably is selling insurance or something like that. Like he, like, you know, he probably got made $15,000 there.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  No doubt, no doubt. Yeah.

• 1:09:46Shaan Puri?

  This happens in the NBA too. This is why like the culture gets kind of messed up because the old heads keep criticizing all the new players.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:53Shaan Puri?

  And it's like, wow, why are you doing that?

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  Because they make too much more money.

• 1:09:56Shaan Puri?

  They make seventy million dollars a year and that guy didn't make seven in his whole career. And he's like, I'm better than that guy. And that guy, you know, so that this resentment and then they get on and then they're the the guys doing the halftime shows and it's bad. Bad for the product, right? Like it's bad for the lineage, right? Because everything is a creative lineage, like on top of what was

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:14Shaan Puri?

  before, right? So you it's really cool to kind of almost like economically fix the, you know, or try to improve that ecosystem.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  Because it's like the whole thing was first. Like, you know, it's funny, it's um, it's also kind of this thought I have about capitalism. It's just capitalism is is definitely the system that lifted the world out of poverty and like kind of created the modern world we live in. Yet, you know, it's incredibly powerful, but right over time it does get corrupted and so forth. And even if it wasn't corrupted, it's not perfect. And like certain things happen like, oh, you create a musical art form and are the guys who actually made it happen? And it becomes the biggest musical art form in the world and you never got paid like capitalism shouldn't work like that, but it's just kind of the way it works.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Right? Like, and it's nobody's fault. And so like, if you can go back and say, well, we'll just correct those things.

• 1:11:09Sam Parr?

  I think that I think you are so cool. Like you're on one hand, you're like a pretty like hard hitting capitalist where you're getting after it. And you're talking about making really tough decisions of having to fire people, whatever. But then you're also like, but also we can, we could do good by doing all this other stuff. And I think that like particularly in tech, I don't think that people's interests are particularly that wide.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think people get very into tech. Yeah. Like tech is so deep and vast that like people can get stuck in it for sure. Yeah.

• 1:11:36Shaan Puri?

  Well, Ben, we thank you for coming on, man. I know you you got a lot of things going on, but this was, this was a lot of fun. I appreciate it.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's a good time. Thanks, guys. Definitely.

• 1:11:45Sam Parr?

  All right. Appreciate you. That's it. That's the pod.

• 1:11:58Shaan Puri?

  Hey, let's take a quick break. I want to tell you about a podcast that you could check out. It is called The Science of Scaling by Marc Robert. He was the founding CRO of HubSpot, and he's a guest lecturer at Harvard Business School. The guy's smart, and he sits down every week with different sales leaders from cool companies like Klavio, and Vanta, and OpenAI. And he's asking about their strategies, their tactics, and how they're growing their companies as, you know, head of sales or chief revenue officer. If you're looking to scale a company up, if you're a CRO or a head of sales that's looking to level up in your career, I think a podcast like this could be great for you. Listen to The Science of Scaling wherever you get your podcasts.