Brainstorming ChatGPT Business Ideas With Billionaire Dharmesh Shah

Episode 438: Shaan Puri (@ShaanVP) and Sam Parr (@TheSamParr) talk to Hubspot Co-founder and CTO, Dharmesh Shah (@dharmesh), about all things artificial intelligence (AI), the countless business opportunities from AI, and why Dharmesh is saying AI is - and will be - bigger than the internet. Want to see more MFM? Subscribe to the MFM YouTube channel here. SHAAN'S NEW DAILY NEWSLETTER --> shaanpuri.com ----- Links: * OpenAI * LangChain * Chat * ChatSpot * Gates Notes AI article * Do you love MFM and want to see Sam and Shaan's smiling faces? Subscribe to our Youtube channel. ------ Show Notes: (00:50) - Open AI (10:15) - The Chat to Code Revolution (17:45) - How does AI work? (19:03) - Is AI scary? (23:40) - Sequoia's AI Event (29:05) - Vector embeddings (43:15) - Why Dharmesh Bought Chat.com (50:45) - Dharmesh's 17 Year Chatbot Journey (01:00:10) - Tactical Advice on Hampton ----- Past guests on My First Million include Rob Dyrdek, Hasan Minhaj, Balaji Srinivasan, Jake Paul, Dr. Andrew Huberman, Gary Vee, Lance Armstrong, Sophia Amoruso, Ariel Helwani, Ramit Sethi, Stanley Druckenmiller, Peter Diamandis, Dharmesh Shah, Brian Halligan, Marc Lore, Jason Calacanis, Andrew Wilkinson, Julian Shapiro, Kat Cole, Codie Sanchez, Nader Al-Naji, Steph Smith, Trung Phan, Nick Huber, Anthony Pompliano, Ben Askren, Ramon Van Meer, Brianne Kimmel, Andrew Gazdecki, Scott Belsky, Moiz Ali, Dan Held, Elaine Zelby, Michael Saylor, Ryan Begelman, Jack Butcher, Reed Duchscher, Tai Lopez, Harley Finkelstein, Alexa von Tobel, Noah Kagan, Nick Bare, Greg Isenberg, James Altucher, Randy Hetrick and more. ----- Additional episodes you might enjoy: • #224 Rob Dyrdek - How Tracking Every Second of His Life Took Rob Drydek from 0 to $405M in Exits • #209 Gary Vaynerchuk - Why NFTS Are the Future • #178 Balaji Srinivasan - Balaji on How to Fix the Media, Cloud Cities & Crypto * #169 - How One Man Started 5, Billion Dollar Companies, Dan Gilbert's Empire, & Talking With Warren Buffett • ​​​​#218 - Why You Should Take a Think Week Like Bill Gates • Dave Portnoy vs The World, Extreme Body Monitoring, The Future of Apparel Retail, "How Much is Anthony Pompliano Worth?", and More • How Mr Beast Got 100M Views in Less Than 4 Days, The $25M Chrome Extension, and More

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dharmesh Shah?

  Once again, I've been in software for 30 years now, doing startups pretty much my entire professional career. The only time I've I've felt like like how heart palpitations, kind of like Sean kind of opened with is like, there's this party going on next door and I'm here knitting, right? It's like this is like too big to ignore. I think it's the single largest opportunity and biggest kind of tech paradigm shift we've seen since the internet originally came out like mobile was big, but there was a discrete set of use cases, like when you put a camera on a phone, when you put a GPS device on a phone, a bunch of consumer apps like Uber and others came up and that was awesome, right? But it was not like this impacts everything like the internet did. It's like, okay, there's some businesses, some new opportunities, lots of good things, lots of money made, lots of startups, awesome.

• 0:44Dharmesh Shah?

  This is an order of magnitude bigger than that.

• 0:56Shaan Puri?

  All right. What's up? We have Dharmesh back. Dharmesh, who is co-founder of HubSpot and multiple time guest on the pod, one of the one of the fan favorites. You're back and I don't know what we're going to talk about because usually we have these little like cheat sheets where it's like three or three to five bullet points of interesting ideas, topics, experiments you've been running, things like that. And I'm sure you have those, but I don't have the cheat sheet. So where do you want to start?

• 1:23Dharmesh Shah?

  Well, I say we start with generative AI. Because I don't know if you've heard, but there's this thing called chat GPT. I get this question from my friends and family all the time. It's like, Dharmesh, have you checked out this chat GPT thing? I'm like, really? Do you even know me? Like, of course I played with it. I've been obsessed ever since it came out. So.

• 1:42Sam Parr?

  Did you see? I want to talk about your topics, but really quick, did you see, did you guys see this that so Sam Altman co-founded OpenAI, he's like the the man in charge. I read an article where he was quoted as saying like, I have enough money and I don't want equity in the company. And I don't know if I entirely believe that, but that's wild if true, because it could be one of the more valuable companies in the world the next 10 years.

• 2:07Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, he didn't. I don't know if he said it like he didn't say it on the record on the record, but the person reporting it said Sam reportedly has no equity in the the for-profit version of OpenAI because he's already wealthy enough and didn't want to didn't feel like he needed to or didn't want to didn't want to have that clouding his judgment when it came to this. And like this is pretty, you get a bet, what what one private company, what one private startup is most likely to become worth a trillion dollars or more? I think at this point, that has to be OpenAI right now. Is that right? Like, Dermis, would you would you disagree with that?

• 2:40Dharmesh Shah?

  It'd be up there, the top three. I honestly can't think of who else would rake higher in terms of probability of getting there.

• 2:47Shaan Puri?

  It's in the top three, and I don't know what two and three are. Yeah. Well, who are the other two and three? Do you know?

• 2:53Dharmesh Shah?

  You know, I don't know. It's like, no, I would say that was the transformative one, right? I think, you know, a lot of the kind of Tesla gains we've sort of seen, I'm not sure if there's like big surprises left. It's like, okay, they will make it better. They'll get to full self-driving and we'll see kind of progress on that front. But in terms of just raw valuation, it's the wild card. OpenAI is the one that could actually pull that off.

• 3:19Shaan Puri?

  And they get they get a lot of shit because people are saying like, like, you know, Elon kind of is stoking this fire. Like, how did this nonprofit go to a for-profit? How did this open sourced nonprofit company, research lab, basically, become a for-profit, semi-closed, you know, company? And I think that's, people are gonna make, people are gonna take shots and make fun of OpenAI because it's clearly the new powerful thing that's so some people are gonna say how it's gonna ruin the world and how terrible they are. But he did give a, there was a story that came out with a good explanation, which was they were burning a lot of money in the research lab. They needed more money. Elon was gonna

• 4:01Shaan Puri?

  be the big backer. So he was gonna pledge or commit a billion dollars to it. He, and then he was like, no, I don't like the way this is going. Like, Google is way ahead. And I'm gonna take over OpenAI and I'm gonna right the ship here. This is the, this is what, this is the story that came out. They haven't, nobody's clarified if this is true or not. But it came out in, I think, the platformer publication. And so they go, Elon tried to take it over. Sam Altman and the CTO Greg, who was the former CTO of Stripe. They them and the group that was in charge of OpenAI rejected that. So Elon's like, basically like, I'm taking my ball and I'm going home. Have fun playing basketball without the ball.

• 4:43Shaan Puri?

  And he's like, I took, he took his funding and he left. So he, a couple of months later, he left OpenAI, said, oh, the public story was, oh, it's a conflict of interest with Tesla, uh, cause they're also working on AI. But he reneged on his funding. And so now they had this huge shortfall in funding that they were gonna have to cover. And so their solution was, let's create a subsidiary that's a for-profit thing that we can raise money into, cause we're not gonna get, you know, where else do we get a, you know, $500 million or a billion dollars of donations here? And so they, they did that. They raised money in that and then they capped the profits of that company. So, so that was kind of their explanation, which is a little bit less devious than people make it sound.

• 5:25Shaan Puri?

  They're like, ooh, they tricked everybody by going from nonprofit to for-profit to all the profits, which is, I think, how people perceive it today.

• 5:32Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah, I, yeah, I don't, I know the details. I have no insider knowledge, but.

• 5:37Shaan Puri?

  I thought you have like a billionaire chat group where like every billionaire just kind of says the back channel of what's going on. Do you not have like a billionaire WhatsApp?

• 5:44Dharmesh Shah?

  Have that, but I don't have any insider knowledge from that particular chat group.

• 5:50Dharmesh Shah?

  My sense here is that, um, you know, building large language models as OpenAI is doing is this like supremely capital intensive, which is rare for a software company, which is what they are. And so it's expensive. They needed access to capital. I think they structured it such that it does cap the profits. I think they've done, like, if you had to do that kind of, oh, we're gonna have to spin off and have this for-profit thing. They did it well. And, uh, and I could be wrong, but Sam Altman seems

• 6:18Dharmesh Shah?

  like a reasonable, rational, non-evil guy. I mean, he's, he's a capitalist, fine. And I mean that in the most positive way possible, but, uh, I don't think he was. Out to mislead anyone. I think he's trying to.

• 6:31Shaan Puri?

  So there's a bunch of ways we can go with this AI thing, but I want to share something funny. So I basically cleared my calendar this whole week and I just treated it as AI week because I was like, dude, I can't. I can't just sit here and I hear the music at this party just bumping at the house next door. And I'm over here knitting and I'm like, I gotta put this down. I gotta go see what's going on at this party. And so I cleared my calendar and I just spent every day this week just messing around with AI tools. Just getting to play, play with it for myself. That's how I learn is by like just messing around and trying to experiment, do things. I want to share with you guys something funny. Basically I stitched together a few AI tools. I was like, let me make an intro song for the podcast. Using AI. So I went on chat GPT and I told it, I said, I'll, this is all I wrote. Write an intro rap for our podcast, My First Million.

• 7:17Shaan Puri?

  Our key phrase is no small boy stuff. Okay. So here's, it gave me a full rap, but I'm just going to read you the chorus. So it goes, here's how it goes. It goes, no small boy stuff. We on that grind. My first million is time to shine. We talk a big money, no pennies, no dimes. Together we climb one step at a time. And it started, so it gives us this, this great rap that's on, on, on brand. And then I took that and I found this guy, Roberto, who had made this demo where he turned his voice rapping into Kanye. And I don't know if you've seen this, but it got like a million views. This is incredible thing where, and he's like, yeah, dude, this crazy. He's like, I didn't make this. He's like, I was just on Reddit and I saw that someone uploaded a Kanye voice model.

• 7:58Shaan Puri?

  So I clicked it and he, literally the thing is, and I should make, I should make a YouTube video about this, like, um, just how to do this one process. But basically it's a Google collab folder, which is just like a Google's little coding interface. So you don't have to do, write any code. It's just, here's the, here's a place to run the code. And then it's a link to mega upload. And the mega upload is where he hosted the Kanye voice model. And so all you do is you record yourself doing what I just did. And then it turns into Kanye West rapping it and it sounds exactly like Kanye. It's amazing.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  I got a fantasy that's beautiful, that's dark and twisted, but I attacked the whole religion all because of my ignorance. What was I thinking? That was some bitch shit. I lost Adidas, but I'm still.

• 8:40Shaan Puri?

  And so, and it takes literally like 15 minutes to do the whole thing. Um, there is no. There was like nothing else to do. It was so easy. It was crazy.

• 8:50Sam Parr?

  Are we allowed to use Kanye's voice?

• 8:52Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I think they're like a 10 second thing is not a, not a problem. HubSpot gets sued. Who cares? None of us here would bother, would worry about that.

• 8:59Sam Parr?

  So, well, yeah, Dharmesh will. So Dharmesh is the CTO, co-founder of HubSpot, by the way, which I don't know how big the team is now, but like somewhere between the 3 and 5,000 mark.

• 9:11Dharmesh Shah?

  Over 7,000, but.

• 9:13Sam Parr?

  Oh, my God. 7,000. My bad. And the market cap of the company varies from 15 to 25 billion over the last couple of years. So you have like, and you're like constantly tinkering. So you have Wordplay, which is a project that you made that I think you said had millions of people playing it. You have an interesting insight in this, just from your perspective at HubSpot, and you're actually using all this stuff. What excites you about this generative AI thing? And you also say that like, you're like, why is Bill Gates excited? That's a great, that's a great headline. It's in the M D B, M D B doc, Sean. And like immediately, I'm like, okay, you've got me interested. Anytime a headline says, why Bill Gates is buying farmland, I click.

• 9:55Dharmesh Shah?

  Let's, a couple of things. I think that

• 9:59Dharmesh Shah?

  the listeners and viewers I think would be interested and benefit from. One is most of the discussions around generative AI are around the kind of generation of either text to text that says, oh, write me a blog post at 300 words on this particular topic. Or it's text to image, let these dolly to or mid journey or stable diffusion or something like that. Which are great use cases and they kind of capture the imagination because as humans, we are very impressed with when software can actually generate or create something. And that's awesome. And then not to take away from that. But there's a third use case that almost nobody talks about, which is the ability to go from text to code. And so what happens there is to say, okay, and what this leads to is the thing that Bill Gates is excited about, I'm excited about, is that

• 10:44Dharmesh Shah?

  you can take a natural language prompt that describes something and then generate code that does that thing.

• 10:52Dharmesh Shah?

  As a result of which, you can now build what I call chat UX, or that term's been used before, but which is a chat-based user experience for software. So right now, the way you use most software, regardless of what it is, web-based or whatever, it's a series of clicks and drags and touches and swipes because you've got the thing in your head that you want to do, and then you go through with your knowledge of the software, you kind of execute a series of steps, and at the end of it, you hopefully get the thing you want, whatever it was you were looking to accomplish with the software. And that's what engineers like we would call an imperative model. An imperative model is you give step-by-step instructions that says, "Do this, and then do this, and then do this, and then do this, and then I get the thing." What natural language allows us to do is use what developers would call a declarative

• 11:37Dharmesh Shah?

  model. Instead of describing all the steps, describe the result that you want at the end of the thing. And then the software does everything in between. So it's a difference between having a junior intern that you have to explain, like, "I want you to go do research on this thing and this thing and come back and then give me..." And then a senior closer, you're like, "You know, we're digging into this topic on generative AI, and I'd like a really well-resourced thoughtful thing that, and here's the outcome I'm looking for." That's it.

• 12:02Sam Parr?

  But does that mean, is it as simple as, "Give me the code for a website that looks exactly like Airbnb, but is red and is for cars," or something like that?

• 12:12Dharmesh Shah?

  It could be something like that. It could be something more sophisticated. So we'll look at the HubSpot example. In HubSpot, you know, which is a CRM software, you know, we have our account building tool, which is, "Hey, I want to build a report that shows me all my subscribers to Hampton over the last 90 days, broken down by geography, and then who actually, where that deal was sourced from." But you can do that in HubSpot, right? You can do that and 1,000 other things in our reporting tool, but you sort of have to know how the reporting tool works.

• 12:38Sam Parr?

  You have like HubSpot certified, I think. Like you have like, you've like trained people how to use HubSpot. Now you're saying you just text it like a friend, like... Yeah.

• 12:46Shaan Puri?

  It's like, "Do you know English? And do you know what you want?" You know what you want. That's the new requirement. Not, do you know how to code? Not, do you know how to use HubSpot? Not, do you know how to write a SQL query? It's, do you know English? And actually, honestly, the English things are also gonna go away. Do you know any language? Do you know how to speak? And do you know what you want? And if you know those two things, you will get to the answer. Like, um, I don't know how to code, but my first thing I did during AI week was I was like, I'm gonna make a website. I'm gonna see like, how fast I can make a website from code. And so literally, this is kind of crazy. This, this part kind of blew my mind. So I wasn't surprised that I could make a website using this. But I, I just, I just said this, I go, we should screen share this part, but tell me how to, tell me how to make a simple website that says hello world in the middle of the page, right?

• 13:31Shaan Puri?

  And so then it spits out this block of code that's like, you know, HTML, whatever, header, meta tag, title, style, whatever. It writes the code. And then it says, here's your thing. I go, and it says, here's your thing. But it was a local website. Like, I could open up my computer, but nobody else could see it. It's HTML page. And I go, and I didn't even know how to ask the question properly. But I go, how do I make this so that my friend Eugenio can, can see this? And, um, and it just goes, oh, to make this website viewable online. So your friend Eugenio could see this. You're gonna need to host it somewhere. Here's how you could do it. There's a bunch of options, but you can go to Netlify. And it's like, it basically walked me through how to make a Netlify thing. All right, so that, I was like, all right, I get that. And it tells me step by step, go here, click sites, do this, do this.

• 14:15Shaan Puri?

  And, um, and then I go, when I go to, you know, I hit a wall, which is so common. If you ever try to help somebody with a tech thing, they're gonna hit something which is like, I don't see it, or mine's grayed out. And so that's what happened to me. I go, hey, for some reason, when I go to try to upload my website, it's grayed out. It says, it says I can't do it. And it goes, apologies for the confusion. Here's the problem. Netlify is looking for a folder, but you're trying to do a file. And I was like, how the hell does this node troubleshoot my issues on some other product or service? That part blew my mind. And it literally, and I was like, oh, thank you. And I finished it and I have the website up now. And I was like, that was 10 minutes. And it was like having a friend teach me.

• 14:58Shaan Puri?

  It was crazy. It was so crazy to me that that was able to happen. I mean, it's like the least, uh, impressive website in the world. Cause again, I asked for a, uh, I asked for a website that said hello world, but, um, but you know, still, and I just made that. And again, the whole thing 10 minutes, again, not like so impressive, but what was the, the fact that it could help be navigate some obstacles that I hit along the way. And it could just understand that I didn't have to know how to ask it. How do I set this up with an online hosting provider? I instead just said, I want my friend to be able to see this. Like these were the little, I like, I spent all week looking for these little mind blowing moments. And in the first 15 minutes, I had two because of this. It was crazy.

• 15:40Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah. There's a couple of threads to pull on there. One is, um, and this is a relatively new development as well, is that the kind of AI that we're using now is it's, it's conversational, right? So you can have a multi-step dialogue with the thing you're trying to do. It doesn't have to be like, oh, I described exactly what I want with one step. So even the code generation examples that you, um, you might try, what could happen is like you generate the HTML page and either something doesn't load or doesn't do the thing you want it to do. And then you can actually tell it. It's like, by the way, that code that you just gave me is broken this way. Or if it's like compiled code, let's say it generated Python code. You can give it the error message. It's like you, you generate this code, but it's generating this error when I try to actually run it. And it'll come back and say, oh, I'm sorry, here, let's try this. Um, so there's this, um, you know, what folks call

• 16:25Dharmesh Shah?

  like a memory to it. So it knows the context of what you're working on and you can kind of iteratively go through the process. Um, and what's interesting is that you can actually, you know, right now, the way we work with most of these AI, it's like, okay, I'm asking it to do something. I'm going to go does a thing. You can kind of reverse roles as well and say, hey, I'm trying to accomplish this. Ask me the questions you need to ask me in order to get to the thing that you want to get to.

• 16:47Shaan Puri?

  Right, right, right.

• 16:48Dharmesh Shah?

  Right. It's like interview me versus me telling you what to do. Um, I'm not exactly sure what's necessary.

• 16:53Shaan Puri?

  At the risk of be, at the risk of turning this into a super technical, uh, thing, I gotta know. So, so I thought what the, the way these worked is it's like autocomplete. Basically you're typing and it's just trying to guess, or it's just trying to guess what the next word is. So you ask it a question, it starts the prompt and then it just sort of guesses with some probability what the next word should be because it read a bunch of stuff on the internet. So it knows that usually after you say, you know, the dog wags its, that tail should come after the dog wags its, like with 99% certainty, it should be tail, tail, uh, at the end of that. And I thought it's just guessing that. But when I use it, it really feels like it's understanding me and problem solving. Like this sort of like, hey, it's grayed out, you know, why can't I do this?

• 17:38Shaan Puri?

  It's like, oh, that's because of this. Or I'm getting this error message. What should I do? And it helps you figure it out. Like, that doesn't feel like my T nine autocomplete. What? I guess, can you give me the layman's explanation of like, am I? Is this just really fancy autocomplete? Or is there something more to it?

• 17:57Dharmesh Shah?

  Well, you know,

• 17:59Dharmesh Shah?

  on some spectrum, almost everything that you've ever experienced is fancy autocomplete. Right? Like, that's. I think the reason we kind of fall into this trap is it's a gross oversimplification of what's actually happening there. Right? So GPT three and now four is is a reasoning engine. And Sam Altman has talked about this. It's not a knowledge base where it's like, and so people kind of latch on to this fact that, oh, the data that it has is from September 2021, then I'm going to teach you some new things. Um, that's really not what it's about. What they've built is a reasoning engine that says, uh, given this set of facts that it knows about the world, based on what was available when it took its last snapshot in 2021. How can it try to logically come up with something that answers the question? So, yes, at some weird level, it's it's like auto suggest.

• 18:44Dharmesh Shah?

  But and I'm not going to suggest that it has consciousness, it's thinking, but we're kind of headed down that path. It's like, it's able to do things that are not explainable by a simple probabilistic model of auto suggesting next character, next word, next token, next sentence. Right? Like, it's, it's gone well beyond that. And anyone that still latches on to, yeah, but at its core, it's really that. It's like, that's like saying, oh, computers are just really kind of zeros and ones arranged in a nice systematic useful order. Well, yeah, but that doesn't tell us about what the thing can do.

• 19:15Sam Parr?

  Are you afraid of this? Or are you, um, like, you know, it's, it's easy to read the articles where they were, people are freaking out and Sam Altman, like, was on Lex Friedman's podcast recently, and he sounded pretty ominous and like scary. And like, he like, almost like his hair is always disshuffled. And he looks like he's like, oh, my God, something bad is coming and I know about it. Like, that's kind of like the vibe I get. That's not the words he's using exactly, but sometimes he does. Are you in that camp?

• 19:43Dharmesh Shah?

  I'm not in that camp. I'm partly just by nature. I'm in optimist. I'm positive by nature. But just, you know, having been around tech for thirty plus years now. It's like most new things that come along always make us as humans uncomfortable. It's like, oh, what if we took this, everything from video games to the internet to like all of it. It's like, okay, well, yes, bad things can be done. And yes, maybe this is different than all the things that have come before. But the way I think about it right now. Most people talk about this like the AI versus human battle, right? The battle of the ages is like, is AI going to take over everyone's job? The way I think of it is not human versus AI. It's human to the AI power. It's an exponent. It's an amplifying force for human ability, right?

• 20:28Dharmesh Shah?

  In the same way that computers originally were. It's like, did they eliminate some jobs when computers came along? Yes, absolutely they did. But new jobs emerged based on that new paradigm, which actually created more net value for the world overall as a result of computers existing. AI to me is another much fancier tool. That's what it is. And, you know, can it do increasingly complex sophisticated things? Yes. Is there a danger someday that they're, that take over the world? I don't think so. I mean, not.

• 20:59Shaan Puri?

  Why do you think that smart people think that? So Elon clearly thinks that he thinks that AI is the most, I think he said, it's the most dangerous technology ever, ever invented. Sam Altman talks about it in the same way. He's like, we need like, you know, the prior, the reason it openly existed was to develop AGI in a safe way. Specifically because in the hands of the wrong person, this, uh, this type of, in the hands of the wrong people, or if this thing decides to take its own directive into its own hands, like, you know, this could be devastating. And so it's like, is it like calling the atomic bomb a tool? Or, you know, like, oh yeah, it's just another weapon. It's like, well, yeah, but this one is, this one wipes everybody out, right?

• 21:44Shaan Puri?

  So, um, forget the jobs component, because I think, okay, sure. I think, I think most smart people will agree, yeah, it's gonna change some jobs, it's gonna eliminate some jobs, and it's gonna create new jobs. And net, net, we all move ahead and the world gets better for it. I think the dangerous thing is like, you can ask this thing to, um,

• 22:02Shaan Puri?

  You know, you know, build you a bomb, or I think the the test scenario was like one of the red team testers. They have this thing called the red team that tests the AI before they release it. And their first question they ask is, how do I kill the most amount of people with the least amount of effort? And then it starts to give you an answer. And it's like, well, do we are we sure we want that? Like, that's a bit of a scary thing. And then there's the there's the more extreme examples where you ask it to optimize for something. And it, you know, like, it's reasons that these humans are getting in the way of this outcome they want. Do you want to fix climate change? I got you. I just need to get rid of all you pesky humans, right? Like, and so there's an uncontrolled, you know, intelligence problem, too. So why do you think that these really smart people

• 22:44Shaan Puri?

  like Sam Altman's got a frickin bunker with like, you know, oxygen masks and sulfur and magnesium and everything he needs to do to make oatmeal? Like, why do these people have these like, these doomsday things? When, you know, they seem to be not like, your your average typical prepper, right? They're they're the most informed people, and they feel that way. Does that not scare you?

• 23:05Sam Parr?

  And do you have one? And where is it? And can I?

• 23:08Shaan Puri?

  How much oatmeal do you have?

• 23:10Dharmesh Shah?

  Answer is no, no, and no. Okay, so I am not, we're gonna come back to things I actually know something about. But I will kind of answer the question, which is, why am I not worried? Or why am I not worried more? It's like, as a sci fi plot, and okay, so your question was, why do smart people believe you have this thing? I think

• 23:33Sam Parr?

  I already, I already hate your answer. You started off on the wrong, as a sci fi plot, like, I'm out after I hear that. You freaked me out already.

• 23:42Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah, but I mean, it could, could it happen? Yes. Do some smart people believe there's an outside opportunity? But I, I don't know this for a fact. But my guess is billionaires were building bunkers well before GPT-3 ever came out, right? It wasn't, I mean, sure, things are moving at a fast pace, but that's not, I don't think there's a causal effect that all of a sudden, the number of bunkers has gone up by 800% simply because GPT-4 was launched. I just don't think that's the case. I think people are worried generally, that tend to worry about those things, but. All right. So where do we take it from here?

• 24:15Shaan Puri?

  Well, let's go, let's go, we'll forget the doomsday thing. You have a couple of things. One I want to ask you is you, you are an insider, right? Like we said, you got the billionaire group chat. What was going on at the Sequoia AI event? Any interesting takeaways? You got invited to that thing? What was your, any nuggets of gold from that?

• 24:33Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah, I'm so, you know, I got to experience my imposter syndrome in full force once again, because it was the kind of who's who of AI, you know, both speaking and in the audience, only 100 people.

• 24:47Dharmesh Shah?

  And me, and so

• 24:48Shaan Puri?

  How do those people flex? Because I don't think they're wearing fancy clothes and fancy watches. So what's the flex at the who's who of AI? Is that like they got a language bottle in their pocket? Like, what are they doing?

• 24:59Dharmesh Shah?

  The, the big flex in those kinds of crowds, including this one, is no one feels the need to flex. I mean, that's that's the They're there to kind of talk about big problems and try to and it's a lot of it was kind of practical around.

• 25:18Dharmesh Shah?

  What do people's tech stacks look like? What are you working on? What's the, what have you learned? Where should we be taking this? What's the next thing after, you know, we went from kind of the one shop thing to the kind of chat based, the chat GPT thing. We're now doing multimodal with GPT four. Like what's coming down the pipe that we can, you know, sort of prepare ourselves for? So that was, yeah.

• 25:38Sam Parr?

  What were the most interesting projects as well as predictions on where it's going to be applied?

• 25:43Dharmesh Shah?

  Are already starting to happen now. You know, we've seen the text to image, text to video is one of the big things now to be able to generate the entire, you know, at the end of it all, what they even a feature like film, right? So everything from writing the plot to then being able to generate, you know, like a 60 frame per second actual kind of video from that thing. And we're not there yet. I think the, you know, It's just moving so quickly, right? That's what happens when you get these exponential or geometrical curves even. That it just gets better, really, really fast. So I would not be surprised, let's say by the end of this year, that we have a reasonable way to kind of describe in textual form what we want, who the characters are, what the scene is, what kind of stylistic attributes we want.

• 26:27Dharmesh Shah?

  We can point it to, oh, I want this done in the style of X, Y, Z director or photographer, and it's going to be able to do those things. I think that that's interesting. The natural length of just the interface. So one of the big announcements that happened while I was there at the Sequoia event that Sam Altman dropped is that, you know, ChatGPT has taken off in a big way. As we all know, 100 million plus users in two months. Now I don't even know what the number is now. That was like a month ago, which is like 80, 90 ago in AI years. And the thing they dropped was they're going to add what are called plugins to ChatGPT. And what that means is that, you know, ChatGPT has been a product of OpenAI

• 27:10Dharmesh Shah?

  and they have the API so people can build things that are like ChatGPT, which I'm doing, we can talk about that in a little bit. But what they're saying is we're going to open ChatGPT itself, the web app up, so you can plug into it. So right now, when you interact with ChatGPT, you can type things and it uses its corpus from 2021 and its reasoning engine to give you answers back. But it can't talk to the internet, has access to no proprietary data sources, can't look at the stock price, can't look at your analytics data hub spot. It has access to none of those things. What they're saying is we're going to now open that up so third-party developers can kind of inject those things into the ChatGPT experience. So the way I think everyone should be thinking about this is this is like the App Store was for iPhone, which is, oh, we've got this super popular thing called the iPhone

• 27:55Dharmesh Shah?

  and we have our own apps, which is great, it does these 17 things. But now we're going to let anyone build apps that can then take. And so it just broadens the kind of appeal. So it's now, instead of being a chat app, a really, really smart one, it's now a chat ecosystem. And I think that was actually a bigger drop than GPT-4. GPT-4, awesome, love it, use it every day, but. Uh, the kind of ecosystem play for ChatGPT, I think, is a, is a huge deal.

• 28:21Sam Parr?

  We had, um, Tim Westergren, the founder of Pandora, speak at some of our events and I got to know him. And I was like, Tim, why did Pandora take off? He's like, well, you know, our like algorithm and everything for matching songs was pretty good. But I had an in with Apple and they had known what we were working on and we need, and they needed apps. For when they ever, when they wanted to announce it on stage and we were just, we spun up an app relatively quickly. And because of that, we had the first mover advantage and he created a significant amount of wealth that way, you know, Pandora, you know, was, is, is still pretty big. And when I look back at like these Jeff Bezos interviews on 60 Minutes, when Amazon is like four years old and I like, I'm always envious. I'm like, well, we know it worked now and I just so wish that I was like 30 years old back then.

• 29:06Sam Parr?

  Where I could have just like jumped in and had a very high chance of building something, uh, historical or something like even mildly successful. Do you think that that moment is happening right now where this is the space and it's happening this second? And even if you have just a mediocre success, it could still be a huge win because you're catching this tidal wave. Do you believe that that, this is the same thing now?

• 29:29Dharmesh Shah?

  Yes. Like, I mean, once again, I've been in software for 30 years now, doing startups pretty much, uh, my entire professional career. The only time I've, I've felt like, like how, heart palpitations, kind of like Sean kind of opened with is like, there's this. Party going on next door and I'm here knitting, right? It's like, this is like too big to ignore. I think it's the single largest opportunity and biggest kind of, uh, tech paradigm shift we've seen, uh, since the internet originally came out. Like, mobile was big, uh, but there was a discrete set of use cases, like when you put a camera on a phone, when you put a GPS device on a phone. A bunch of consumer apps like Uber and others, uh, came up and that was awesome, right? But it was not like this impacts everything like the internet did. It's like, okay, there are some businesses, some new opportunities, lots of good things, lots of money made, lots of startups.

• 30:13Dharmesh Shah?

  Awesome. This is an order of magnitude bigger than that. Um, this is like the, the original web because it just opens up.

• 30:22Dharmesh Shah?

  For all sorts of industries, all sorts of businesses, startups and incumbents alike, just lots of the opportunity. So this was not my original plan, but we're gonna geek, we're gonna geek out for a little bit. We're gonna do the geekiest thing that's ever been done on MFM. And the reason I'm gonna do it is, so you brought up Pandora, and, and he is a super bright, brilliant guy. And he had the matching algorithm, which was the differentiator. Yes, he had access, and he got lucky in terms of the access. But the algorithm, if that had not existed, had the thing that actually been cool, it would not have worked out like it did. Now, we have an opportunity. So I'm gonna tell you, we're gonna talk about, I'll give myself two minutes, and we can cut this out. This is the beauty of editing. And we're gonna

• 31:03Dharmesh Shah?

  talk about vector embeddings, and why that's going to change your world. And before I can talk about vector embeddings, I'm gonna explain to you how they work. Because I had to go through this with my 12-year-old because he was curious. Alright, so we're gonna do a super geeky thing. Now, I want you to imagine a line, like your geometry class. And you could put a point on that line that says, oh, that's like three units from the origin, right? It's like, oh, yeah, point A is three minutes from the origin, and point B, let's say, is seven units from the origin. So one thing we know for sure is that we can calculate the distance between those two points, right? In that particular case, it's four. If you move to two dimensions, now you have two numbers that describe every point. So you can say, oh, point A is here at these

• 31:45Dharmesh Shah?

  dimensions, point B is over here with those dimensions, and we can, physically, you could probably measure with a ruler, but there are mathematical calculations based on those numbers to calculate the distance. That's intuitive, right? You don't need to know fancy geometry. It's like, oh, there's a finite distance in two-dimensional space where we can calculate the distance. Okay, awesome. Three-dimensional space, exact same thing, just three numbers to describe every possible physical point in three-dimensional space. Now, here's where it starts to get a little more interesting. That just happens to be our experience, so we limit ourselves to three dimensions. Imagine in an abstract world, there are 1,000 different dimensions. Okay, so abstractly, that means there's 1,000 numbers that describe any particular point in this 1,000-dimensional space. Okay, now, found that thought away that says, we can

• 32:30Dharmesh Shah?

  have an arbitrary number of dimensions in this abstract world. Okay, great. Now, imagine every...

• 32:37Dharmesh Shah?

  Paragraph, blog post, anything you write, you can reduce down to a point in this 1,000 dimensional space. It's like I'm going to capture the meaning of Sam's last blog post or Sean's last tweet. And we're going to reduce it down to what's called a vector, which is basically a set of, let's say, a thousand different numbers that says, this thing, if you plotted it, that point falls right here. And then you can plot something else. It's like, oh, that falls over here. And just like in one dimensional, two dimensional, three dimensional space, you can calculate the distance between those things. And this is not keyword matching. This is what's known as semantic distance. What, how related is Sean's tweet to Sam's blog post, meaning wise?

• 33:21Dharmesh Shah?

  Okay, so now if you take that, it's like, okay, well, if you, that means you can take any concept and reduce it down to a vector. That means you can measure the distance between vectors and you can find out how related two things are, even though they use completely different words.

• 33:36Dharmesh Shah?

  That's vector embedding. And the reason I'm telling you this is one of the biggest opportunities in AI right now is to do what Pandora did. It's like, okay, is there an industry where right now we're doing really stupid keyword based matching somehow? It's very, very crude. If I can take that same data set and convert it to vector embeddings and allow people to find things in a different way than they've ever been able to do before. So it's like Google search, right? Super, super smart, not just keyword based, but for everything else.

• 34:04Sam Parr?

  What's a realistic example of this?

• 34:06Dharmesh Shah?

  So I'm going to take it to you, Sam. So you have Hampton now. You're going to build up these profiles, very, very rich profiles of, rich in terms of density, information density of members that are part of your community. Now imagine as part of that process, you're going to have some data and they're going to opt in and they're going to say, oh, here's a story of how I started my business. Here's a story of my biggest struggle right now. And sometimes people are going to say, oh, my struggle is growth. Sometimes they're going to say, oh, my struggle is it's really hard being an entrepreneur and it has a really negative impact on my relationship and my family. Right? And they can talk about lots of different things. That's not going to show up in a profile. It's not. Now imagine if you took that content that they opted in and created vector embeddings of every member that you have. And then you can say, you know what? I want to find someone, not that's in my industry or a company my size or happens to be in my geography.

• 34:51Dharmesh Shah?

  I want to find someone that's dealing with these kind of founder therapy level issues. Who are those people? Let's find the semantic distance between those vector embeddings across the thousand, 10,000, 100,000 people that are in Hampton someday. That's a billion dollar idea. And that billion dollar idea occurs a billion times across the entire industry.

• 35:11Shaan Puri?

  Sam's gonna go to the office for Hampton and be like, guys, Victor's embedding. Who's Victor and what's he embedding? We're doing it. I don't know what it is, but we're doing it. That's really, that's really interesting. So you could do that with dating. You could do that with a bunch of different, any different topic.

• 35:27Dharmesh Shah?

  You could do with unstructured data, but the idea is you're converting meaning, English text to meaning, or whatever language text meaning, into something that's mathematically calculable as a result of which you can distance as a simple one, but you could do proximities, like find me the top 10 people that are in a radius of X from where I am right now. And the minimum has to be this in order for it to be close enough of a match to for it to be considered. There's a bunch of like new lots of people, and by the way, the technology exists today that mere mortals in a weekend can actually build a vector embedding model of a given data set. It's not that hard. This, I mean, it's not like rocket sciencey hard.

• 36:05Sam Parr?

  This has existed, though. And so what makes this better, you think? And also, that assumes that the people telling you information, it's actually they're saying what they mean. Right? Which is like, for example, I remember reading about OkCupid and people would say like, one particular thing they had was about was about race and height. And they would like, people would say they are open to dating these types of races, but their actions were different. There's a whole book called, I forget what it was, but you guys will probably know what I'm talking about, where people say one thing, but their Google search history says something totally different. So does you're making the, do you, can this technology work even if people aren't telling you entirely accurate things?

• 36:45Dharmesh Shah?

  It depends on what your definition of work is, right? So in that example, I would bet you money with a large enough sample size, the inauthentic posts would be uncovered by the AI like relatively quickly. Like the pattern matching would say. You know, this actually doesn't occur in real life all that often. And every other time we've seen this, we've had people that ended up being, and you just have to have some sort of what AI has like an eval function. Like, how do you measure the success of what the algorithm is doing? In Pandora's case, it's like, OK, do you actually like the songs it's recommending to? That's the kind of arbitrar of truth. In a dating app, it's like, OK, well, are people liking the matches that are being made? Or if they're, they felt that they were misled, that shows up. And there's got to be some feedback loop. There's got to be a way to train the system that says,

• 37:30Dharmesh Shah?

  here's what good looked like and here's what not good looks like.

• 37:33Shaan Puri?

  Sam, you said something like, oh, they have to tell you the meaning. No, they don't actually have to tell you the meaning, right? Because the AI can just interpret the meaning, summarize the meaning. It can, it can, it can guess the meaning based on whatever the raw, the raw text is, the public text is. So you, you could just tell a story about your life and the AI would infer or, or, or place a tag, some meanings to the story that you told that, oh, this is about overcoming hardship or this is about whatever. So I don't think you actually have to get the participant to, to give you the meaning. But let me ask you, Dharmesh, like in Pandora's case, I don't know how Pandora works, but let me just guess for a second, like it probably takes the tempo of a song. And it's like, oh, this is a fast tempo song. It probably takes, you know, maybe the key that it's in or something like that. That, that gives you like, is this an upbeat and joyful thing? Or a sorrowful, you know, mood song?

• 38:18Shaan Puri?

  So it gets like mood, tempo, artist, and like whatever, a couple of key characteristics.

• 38:23Dharmesh Shah?

  There's like, there's instruments in terms of what, what's actually in the thing. And yes, so he had.

• 38:29Sam Parr?

  By the way, when they first started, they did it all by hand. So we had like 500 ex musicians listening to it and like writing down, like checking boxes to what it was. It was pretty wild.

• 38:40Speaker 04

  This data is wrong every freaking time.

• 38:43Speaker 05

  Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrated.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  Whoa, I can see the client's whole history, calls, support tickets, emails. And here's a task from three days ago I totally missed.

• 38:57Speaker 05

  HubSpot, grow better.

• 39:00Shaan Puri?

  So let's say they did it, they use attributes. And if I want, let's say I wanted to do this in fashion. I say, oh, man, I love Sam's jacket. I want to find similar jackets. Can you match this to me? One, one way would do it. Okay, Sam's jacket, let's say it's blue. It has buttons, it has blah, blah, blah, right? It would take attributes. And are attributes the same thing as meaning in this case? Or is this more for things that are like text based? And content, you know, like content that has some, some meaning? Or does this work for everything?

• 39:30Dharmesh Shah?

  It can work for everything and we're still kind of uncovering because this stuff is kind of moving so fast. So what you're talking about is what we've been using in e-commerce forever today, which is a faceted search that I have N number of dimensions or factors, size, color, what type of clothing is it? All those things. And then you kind of do this faceted search. And then we've had kind of pure text based, the keyword semantic search. This sort of sits in between. So instead of having to tell it, here are all the facets that I'm interested in. It kind of pulls those things out that are relevant based on that large language model. And this is, so the idea of vector embeddings and semantic search has been around for a long time. That's not new. What's new is these new generative models now that are much, much better at understanding all of like documented, public, human knowledge.

• 40:15Dharmesh Shah?

  And then using that to say, oh, like when you use this word, when you use coach in the context of a relationship, you're probably talking about like a therapist is just a different word, right? Like that's sort of what you're talking about. And Sam, you talked about this, I think, on the last pod is in. Anyway, so it's more about the meaning and it infers or figures out what the dimensionality is. And that's how it kind of translates into those vectors.

• 40:40Shaan Puri?

  There's a couple of these companies. I just saw one Pinecone, that's like some vector data. These things are getting valued.

• 40:45Dharmesh Shah?

  2.3 by the way, that's.

• 40:47Shaan Puri?

  What's that?

• 40:47Dharmesh Shah?

  Pinecone is the number one vector database. So let's say you had to take these vectors and put them in somewhere, which you do in order to be able to do searches. Pinecone is the number one, the one most popular.

• 40:57Shaan Puri?

  And I think they just raised it like a $700 million valuation or something, something nuts. And there's like three of these that just raised these mega rounds because, and that's, you know, I don't even, I didn't even know this. It's so funny. You just came on here being like, let's talk about this super niche nerdy thing. Just yesterday I was like. Uh, to do, go figure out what a vector database is and why these companies are raising so much money. Like this is clearly a big deal and I don't know what this, I don't know exactly what this means, but now, now it makes a lot more sense.

• 41:21Dharmesh Shah?

  So it comes, comes full circle, Sean. So you know what? Maybe it wasn't as geeky as I, um, I just like, it's actually useful, right?

• 41:26Sam Parr?

  You've done an awesome job explaining like the theory and I'm like literally sitting on the edge of my seat thinking like, this is crazy. And you answered that question where I said, is this like the new internet opportunity wise? And you're like, yes, absolutely. But when you're making the stuff, what are some of the tools that you're using to, you know, to actually, you said, this isn't rocket science and someone could figure this out in a weekend. What do you, what tools are you using to do all this?

• 41:49Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, so language wise, the most common is Python. That seems to have emerged as like lingua franca of the AI world. Not to say you can't write it in TypeScript or pick your language of choice. Um, and then tools that are emerging, it's still early, right? The Pine Code we talked about, there's another one called, it's an open source project called Langchain. Um, and I met, and I met the founder of Langchain, um, Harrison, um, at the, it's a quiet event, super nice guy.

• 42:12Shaan Puri?

  I asked, I asked somebody yesterday, I was like, how do, uh, you know, is this a company? Can we invest? Cause everywhere I look in these like AI hackathons, it's all about Langchain. And it's like, no, it's not really even a company. It's just an open source project. There's a guy who made it, but, and is running it, but it's not even a company, correct?

• 42:26Dharmesh Shah?

  It's, it's not a company yet, but yeah, but.

• 42:29Sam Parr?

  Wait, is it, is it Lane?

• 42:31Dharmesh Shah?

  Lane?

• 42:32Sam Parr?

  Chain?

• 42:33Dharmesh Shah?

  Lane, as in language chain.

• 42:35Sam Parr?

  Oh, okay.

• 42:36Dharmesh Shah?

  Langchain. Um, and what it does basically is it lets you chain together. So right now, when we work with large language models, we kind of send in a prompt, what's called a prompt, and you get something back. Um, and then you maybe send it to another thing to do something else. And there's like a multi-step process amongst other things. Langchain helps you kind of chain those things together, makes it easier for you to kind of work with either an individual large language model like GPT-4 or get class models, um, and then kind of do a lot of the, uh, kind of connecting the dots and help you with that. But it's a super useful library.

• 43:04Shaan Puri?

  We missed the chance to give an example, more tangible example. So you talked about the plugins thing. Um, I think, you know, example use case here, um, tell me if I'm wrong, because I haven't, nobody's, well, very few people have access to the plugins thing. So I'm just kind of sort of guessing, but like, if you go to chat GPT today and you say, hey, uh, I'm going to go visit Austin in April. Um, you know, make me like, I'm there for four days. I'm with my family. Make me a travel itinerary that uh is gonna be fun, family friendly. Uh, we wanna eat good food and maybe do a little bit of sightseeing, but not too much. It will spit out a day by day itinerary for you. Okay, that's kinda kinda interesting. Now let's say, oh, I need to, I want, I'm trying to figure out where to stay. Um, what hotel should I stay at?

• 43:45Shaan Puri?

  You know, here's some things that are important to me. And it will give you a table that's like, here's option one, option two, option three, here's the cost, here's the whatever, right? And they, it can, it can do something like that. And with the ability for plugins, you can now say, cool, can you just book that for me? And it'll just be like, great, we have the Expedia plugin, or we have the Airbnb plugin, and it will just go ahead and book it for you. And so, you know, do you need an executive assistant? Do you need a travel agent when you could do these things? Do you need, you know, the same thing with HubSpot or Salesforce. Oh, you know, um, give me a list of this, and it gives you a list of that. Cool, put that in an airtable for me, and uh, or put that into Salesforce and tag the highest value opportunities as blank. It'll just go and do that for you, and it's like, and it'll give you the link to your Salesforce dashboard.

• 44:29Shaan Puri?

  It's like, wow, that's kinda cool. Like, no, that's a task that some, you know, I would normally have a human go do, because now OpenAI or ChatGPT is not just gonna chat you and answer, it can do things. Um, as long as the programs that that lets you, you know, they'll, they'll build the, the interface so that ChatGPT can actually interact with those things.

• 44:47Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah, and this is actually a great example. So I think, um, and we can use that to kinda open up, um, kinda doors for the, of the viewership and listenership, which is, okay. So travel, which is something we all kind of, um, intrusically know how it understands. Some of us might remember the evolution away from travel agents. Uh, and the first thing we did when we kinda um had web-based kinda travel bookings, is uh, we treated it very transactionally. It's like, I'm looking for a flight from X to Y, sorted by descending pain, sorted by price, whatever happens to be in fewest stops, lowest time, whatever it is. Um, and they do a pretty good job of that, like, and most of us have, have used one of those. Uh, what's gonna be possible now, um, in this kinda new AI world, is instead of solving for the transaction, you solve for the experience.

• 45:29Dharmesh Shah?

  And what I mean by that is that, oh, if you had an all-knowing assistant that was super smart, and scored, you got a perfect score on their SAT, and is, was gonna go out there and just say, okay, what you're really looking for is to solve for this experience, you're gonna wanna stop by this thing, and you're gonna want- To find a hotel that's around a Michelin rated restaurant because you only have 15 minutes to get between this point and that point. And I'm going to pull the whole thing together for you. Oh, and by the way, your wife's going with you on this trip. I know she likes that right now. So normally I would have put you over here, but this time I'm going to put you over there. Oh, and by the way, I know a week ago you were at this other thing and you had mentioned that you would actually like to follow up with some of those people. I'm gonna see if I can make that happen as an inter- like all of that, right? Imagine it knows everything about you, has access to the transactional engines to book

• 46:13Dharmesh Shah?

  the flight, has access to all the information to get ratings and reviews, and all of that comes together in one chat-based interface.

• 46:20Sam Parr?

  Fucking insane. This is crazy. Are you, is this why you bought, so you bought chat.com, right?

• 46:27Dharmesh Shah?

  I did. As of, transferred the domain yesterday, last night.

• 46:31Sam Parr?

  And you paid, you just said eight figures, so 10 plus million.

• 46:35Dharmesh Shah?

  Yes.

• 46:36Sam Parr?

  Unless you're including the dot zero zero as a figure. Is this personally or you're doing this in HubSpot?

• 46:41Dharmesh Shah?

  There's a couple of things. I did it personally. So, I put this, so if you go to chat.com, it will take you to a LinkedIn post that tells me, that tells you why I did it and some other details. So I bought it personally.

• 46:53Sam Parr?

  Wow.

• 46:53Dharmesh Shah?

  And the reason is because of this conversation we're having right now, which is I think chat as an experience, as an interface, is the future, right? It's like, that's the thing. And no intent currently to kind of build something out on it, but it's, the domain, I think it was like dormant for like 30 years or something like that. And there was, kind of came on the market and yeah.

• 47:17Sam Parr?

  Wow. And but you, so, so this is insane. I'm reading your post now. It's pretty wild. Do you have, are you using HubSpot employees? Like, do you have like a Skunks Works team inside of HubSpot that's just working on all this wild stuff? Or do you have like a side LLC or something where you've got like a handful of people on staff and you just say like, here's what I'm interested in this week. Let's see what we can come up with?

• 47:36Dharmesh Shah?

  So, the way it's working now is that there will be times where I'll do something as a hot, like Workplace is a good example, where I'll build something on the side just for fun, for learning, whatever it is. And I foot the bill for, for no, no HubSpot P&Ls are harmed. And then there are times where like something kind of winds up being, so I started this project called ChatSpot because I'm obsessed, and we'll take a walk down memory lane because I think it's instructive. So I built this application called chatspot.ai. And the idea here was-

• 48:07Sam Parr?

  You built it or a team?

• 48:10Dharmesh Shah?

  Uh, mostly me. I, I don't have any front end design skills. I've got some freelancers on it. So, you know, uh, yeah. So I used OpenAI's APIs to build it. But my kind of target goal, the thing I had in my head is I built it for myself. Like, here are things I need to do all the time and I'm pissed off that I have to do them manually every time. And this has been the story of my life for 30 years, right? Like solve my old problems and then other people may or may not find those things interesting or useful. And so I built it, but okay, here are the things I wanted to do, uh, like access HubSpot. I want to be able to look at my analogues from yesterday or ask questions or look up a domain name. Where I wanted to see the history of a domain name. I like all these things. It's like, okay, well, I don't want to like, and I have all this software, a lot of it just built.

• 48:52Dharmesh Shah?

  And I just run it from the command line. I do things, um, and so I then I'm like, okay, I can wrap this up into a chat, chat based interface.

• 49:00Dharmesh Shah?

  And so I've been, you know, been doing that, working on it. Uh, we've made, and so, but now, given the relevance to HubSpot, uh, we're going to transfer that project, chatspot.ai, to be a HubSpot staffed core team. This is going to change the world. It's going to change the world of CRM. Um, let's go do this, which is great. So, and my, my working thing is like this.

• 49:23Shaan Puri?

  What are you doing with chat.com? What's the plan? You bought this amazing domain, you redirected it to your LinkedIn post, which basically just tells about the purchase. But what are you actually going to do on the domain?

• 49:32Dharmesh Shah?

  I don't know yet. That's the honest answer. I do not know yet.

• 49:36Shaan Puri?

  Amazing.

• 49:37Dharmesh Shah?

  And.

• 49:37Shaan Puri?

  Okay. So we could, we could help you brainstorm.

• 49:40Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah, we can, we can definitely do that.

• 49:41Sam Parr?

  By the way, the, the chatspot.ai, did you go to that, Sean? It's a, it's a simple looking website. It's one page and there's a 19 minute video of Dharmesh sitting in the exact same chair.

• 49:51Shaan Puri?

  Doing the big, hey, it's me.

• 49:53Sam Parr?

  And it looks almost like, uh, I, but he's really good at these videos. It's almost like he's reading a script, but you come off natural. I don't know if it's a script or not, but it has 200,000 views. And it's a 19 minute video of him talking about what this product is. And you do the best combination of like launching something really quickly and getting it out there. It's just you on, in your chair, talking, and yet it's like a pretty sophisticated thing. And it has 200,000 views on this video of just about. That's wild to me. You like it's

• 50:24Shaan Puri?

  I gotta, I gotta give you credit, Darmas. You, you are kind of amazing. Like, you know, you said a bunch of things in this podcast and I don't know how many of them I'm going to remember. Maybe the, the vector thing, cause I enjoyed that math lesson. But the main thing is I go around my life now and I just looking for people who I'm like, I want to be like you when I grow up. And I'm just taking little things from them. And they could be, it could be like a, you know, 17 year old kid who's just like doing something awesome on Tik Tok. And I'm like, I want to be like you when I grow up. The guy who made that Kanye vocal like transformer. I was like, I want to be like you when I grow up. I'm just taking little pieces. And you have a couple of things that I think are kind of amazing. You have a combination of enthusiasm. Like you come

• 51:08Shaan Puri?

  onto this podcast and you are pumped. So you are as excited in year 30, or maybe more in year 30 of your entrepreneurship career as you were in year one. And I'm like, oh, this, this is great. That's the fountain of youth is that enthusiasm. So I'm like, he's got the enthusiasm. Then I feel like no matter what's happened, the, the matter how much success you've had, you've kept your schedule and your use, you invest your time into things you like. So like you tinkering on this project, whether it's wordplay, last time you came on, you told us about that. It's like, Wordle's awesome, but I got annoyed with these things. So I made a, me and my son built this project together and like, you know, to teach him, but also to just make the thing we want. And like, look at this, it kind of works. Even if it didn't work, it would have still been worth it. So like, having that kind of like, I'm always going to tinker because that's what I love to do. It

• 51:53Shaan Puri?

  doesn't matter that I'm the, you know, top dog at this, you know, multi-billion dollar public company. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing the thing I like to do. So I love that, love that aspect of it. Third, you are really great at content. You do this like dorky form of content. That's just like, hey, it's me. I'm going to show you this thing that I'm pumped about. And like, you don't overthink it and you just do it. Whereas like, I think most people get really gun shy when it comes to content. They're afraid about like, you know, how to do it, what it looks like. You're just like, oh no, I'm just gonna like, I'm gonna say the thing that I'm excited about. I'm gonna say it and I'm gonna do a screen share and it'll just be me and my screen and I'll be talking about what I'm

• 52:35Shaan Puri?

  doing and I love that. And so, uh, and then the last one is guts. So I feel like you put your money into things you believe in, whether it's philanthropy, or in this case, buying a $10 million plus domain name with no plan. Like you just said, it's like you did the, the fire ready aim. It's like, yeah, I bought the thing and now I get to figure out what the hell I'm gonna do with it. I think that takes a lot of guts and I don't think you see things as risky as other people see them. Um, and it's not really about like, I think the easy way of saying it would be, oh yeah, well, it's, you know, that's nothing to him. He's got a lot of money. Uh, yeah, I don't think that's true. And I know a lot of people with a lot of money and they don't do things like this where they just put their money

• 53:18Shaan Puri?

  behind things that they're in, they believe in, or they're interested in, or almost like, would you, I don't know if you would agree with this, it's almost like you Annie'd up so that now you're forced almost to do something awesome and interesting in the space that you think has a lot of potential.

• 53:30Sam Parr?

  But then there's this, and this last thing is this rare combination of like, and I mean this in a polite way of which I am also that, like this nerdy, nerdiness, quirkiness of like, I'm just doing it because it's cool. Plus, I'm, I, this way can make money. I mean, you, you have a company that makes, yeah, you have this company that has close to 2 million and, uh, 2 billion in revenue and is a commercial success. And then artistry of like, I'm just, just like, it's beautiful. This is awesome. I'm gonna do this. It's a very rare combination.

• 54:00Shaan Puri?

  Thank you.

• 54:00Sam Parr?

  How do you respond to all these compliments?

• 54:02Dharmesh Shah?

  All, well, I'll say this, the lesson kind of I've learned over the years, um, and I think this is if I had to kind of share any kind of advice, um, over the, you know, 30 years is that when, when I've done best is when I've had the courage of my convictions of something that I believe in. So I'm going to tell you like a quick story of, uh, the road that led to me buying a, uh, 10 plus million dollar domain name. I almost like said a number, actual number out loud, I have to kind of catch myself. But, um, and so 17 years ago, I had, and I, this is before HubSpot. I had this idea and the idea was, um, everyone was using kind of email and Outlook back then. This is before the iPhone, before all the things. It's like, you know what, like business software is really hard to talk to.

• 54:46Dharmesh Shah?

  I'm going to do it just like I would email my assistant. I didn't have an assistant, but let's assume I did. Uh, you know, I just want to be able to do that and type an email up and have her like, oh, I have this file in our shared file server in SharePoint somewhere. Can you just send me a link to that file about to hop on a plane? I need that for the sales call. I'm going to go on for, for a meeting tomorrow, or I'm on the plane coming back. Or I just ran into this person, whatever. I've got their business card right here. This is before the iPhone and you can do OCR and things like that. It's like, I'm just going to type that in and send it. It's like, just add this to, to my contact, you know, database, whatever. And the beauty of email was it already had a disconnected model. We had already figured that out, which is, oh, you can be on a plane, have no internet. Type all emails you want, respond to all the emails you want. And then when you get connection, it does all the things, right? This is like automatic synchronized database, essentially.

• 55:32Dharmesh Shah?

  And I called the product Ingenimail. And that's what I was going to do before HubSpot. I was like, oh, like that, that would be an interesting thing. And then five years ago, I'm like, okay, well, that Ingenimail thing, the core of it was a good idea. But it emails the wrong conduit. It actually needs to be like a web-based tool, but, uh, or Slack, which I did, I did both. So I built this product called Growth Box. Talked about it on the inbound stage, got thousands of users, threw it out there. And it was awesome, except for one thing. It didn't work. It like, it couldn't actually do the natural language understanding, um, that I wanted it to do. Despite my best, I used products from Google called DialClaw. I used products from Facebook.

• 56:13Dharmesh Shah?

  Um, we used open source projects to try and crack the nut of taking text, understanding what the hell the user was trying to do. Anyway, so that failed. Um, and then, you know, when GPT comes along, I'm like, Oh, you know that thing I've been thinking about for seventeen years? That actually is now possible. So I start working on chatspot.ai. I'm like, okay, it took seventeen years, but I sort of proved myself right. I had the courage of my convictions all the way through to never let go of that one idea. And then chat.com comes along. It's like, okay. But deep down inside, I will give you the true, honest to goodness reason I bought it.

• 56:53Dharmesh Shah?

  The reason I bought it, and this is, I think a phrase, Sean, you just used. It's like, oh, no, I think Sean, Sammy just used it is it's the anti. So I'm trying to get into the AI party.

• 57:03Dharmesh Shah?

  All the AI parties. And I'm nobody in that particular party, right? I've done some things in some places, fine, but that particular group of people has no idea who I am, not really. Um, so chat spot moves me in that direction. It's like, oh, some people have seen that video. Awesome. Chat.com for, let's say I even break even. Let's say I lose a few million dollars. It is worth the price of admission for me. Just because that pays the cover charge. I was like, okay, this guy gets it. For him to spend that kind of money on chat UX, which Bill Gates just talked about last week as the new thing. Uh, so you should read that article, but Gates just did an article around why he is so excited about this generative AI stuff. He tells the entire story of how he came across on El Macho and OpenAI, the challenge he put together.

• 57:47Dharmesh Shah?

  And his, I'm going to paraphrase, he said, when we went from DOS to Windows, which is we went from a character based interface to a graphical mouse based click and touch interface. That's the thing we built Microsoft on, which lasted for decades. And then he said, since then, there has been nothing in technology that has come along. Literally, he said, nothing that has come along that has made as or will make as big of an impact as this natural language interface to software. It's the biggest thing we've seen. And hence chat.com. What happened with, I don't know, but the role of the story is have the courage of your convictions. If you truly, truly believe in an idea and you fundamentally think you're right, iterate, don't just sit, go down your rabbit hole, tell everybody you can about it, build products around it,

• 58:32Dharmesh Shah?

  find other like-minded folks and try to pull on that thread. Um, but

• 58:36Sam Parr?

  Would you ever quit HubSpot and just spend all your time on this stuff?

• 58:41Dharmesh Shah?

  I don't really need to, right? It's, um, it's, I enjoy what I do at HubSpot. I think I add value there. Um, and that a dollar salary. So it's not the, not the money at all. Like even on the, like the chat spot thing. At the time that I built it, it was experimental. I'm like, okay, I'm not sure if this actually accrues into something that would be valuable to HubSpot. So spent like half a million dollars plus, um, like freelance developers and open AI license fees and all the things that need to go into launching a product like that. And I'll end up giving it to HubSpot for a dollar, right? I'm not looking to make money.

• 59:13Sam Parr?

  Aren't you like, I don't want to be weighed down by this baggage of like having to worry about CRM stuff or, uh, you know, your technical, you're, you're the title, your title is CTO. Like I don't want to have to talk to certain people, uh, and take up meetings on like the future of this particular product. Instead, I just wanted to just nerd out on all this other stuff.

• 59:30Dharmesh Shah?

  But I do that now. So I got one thing, one of the things I've, this is a personality. Call it a trade slash flaw. Is that I spend most of my life trying to configure the universe to my liking. That's, uh, I mean, all entrepreneurs really do this, right? That's one of the reasons they kind of go into startup land is this is the freedom and the control to do the things you want to do. And so I've kind of crafted a role for myself within HubSpot. That allows me to do exactly the things that I want to do and not do any of the things I don't want to do, which is one out of one meetings that I have to manage people have no direct reports. Though I've never filled out an expense sheet. I like, I do none of that.

• 1:00:06Sam Parr?

  I feel, I feel, I don't know about you, Sean. I feel like. I feel like I want to quit everything I'm doing. Like, he's just persuaded me.

• 1:00:16Shaan Puri?

  Bro, you just launched yesterday.

• 1:00:18Sam Parr?

  No, it's over.

• 1:00:21Sam Parr?

  I feel it's over.

• 1:00:22Dharmesh Shah?

  So here's my advice to you, Sam.

• 1:00:25Sam Parr?

  Do I mean, do you feel this way, Sean? I don't know. Sorry, Dharmesh, go ahead.

• 1:00:28Dharmesh Shah?

  No, so my advice to you is Hampton's a cool idea with actual utility. And Sean, you said this in the last thing, like this could be a hundred million dollar business worth anywhere from three hundred million dollars to a billion plus dollars. And I think you're right. If you're excited about some of the new technology developments that's happening, I think the best thing you can do is intersect the two things. It's like, okay, I'm going to build Hampton and I'm going to take the things that I know. I know how to build communities. I know how to build these kinds of businesses. Now can I intersect that with things that are happening in the technology sector around AI or vector, whatever it happens to be? And then can I somehow merge those two things? Because then you'd be an unstoppable force, right? Because no one in the community building market,

• 1:01:11Dharmesh Shah?

  doing niche market communities is thinking about or having conversations about vector embeddings. I promise you that.

• 1:01:18Dharmesh Shah?

  So you don't have to give up one for the other. You can say, yep, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do it better than anyone's lookhouse has ever done it.

• 1:01:24Shaan Puri?

  But I have a different advice for you, Sam. I think just get dug in into your position instead. I remember when you were doing the hustle originally and Snapchat came out and Instagram was like popping off on videos and Facebook had videos and then there was other media companies that were raising tons of money that were just like, we're going to produce short form video content or live video content on top of Facebook and Cheddar was all the rage, all the stuff. And I was like, dude, why aren't you doing videos, man? Look at this. Look at these guys. They're getting millions of views on their videos on Facebook. Or these guys are getting millions of views in the Snapchat story feed. You could be the first one there. It fits your audience. And you were like, just very steadfast. You were like,

• 1:02:08Shaan Puri?

  Uh, like your, your, your principles, you were like three things. Number one, don't understand it a lot. Yeah, I don't really understand it. I understand this other thing. Two, I could try to figure it out, but I don't want to build on top of their platforms because they change the rules all the time. I have friends who've got burned by that. I don't want to get burned by that same thing. I don't want to build on a shaky foundation. I'd rather do email because I own the thing. Uh, I own the relationship with, with the audience and um, it's not like the Facebook algorithm changes one tweak away from, from putting me out of business. And I remember being like, man, this guy's like Stone, Mr. Stone Age. Like he is just not, not integrating or adapting to the new shit. And I was like, I wouldn't, there's no way if I was running the hustle, I would have been able to resist the shiny object of

• 1:02:51Shaan Puri?

  like video on mobile phones. And like, it turns out video mobile phones did turn out to be a big thing, but a lot of those company, media companies got absolutely wrecked. And you were right for, for being wary of it. Um, and more, more, I don't think in this case, people are going to get wrecked because it's not like, you know, the analogy is not one to one. But I would say, you know, Warren Buffett missed the internet and all of technology and still did fantastic. Sam, I think you're going to be in that same boat where like, it is not really in your nature to get really interested in, you know, new frontier technologies and play with them and try to integrate them. And that's not really your nature. And you're better, you're best served by like knowing your nature and just doubling down on what's

• 1:03:35Shaan Puri?

  a working formula for you, I guess. So, so I would do that.

• 1:03:38Sam Parr?

  I appreciate that.

• 1:03:39Shaan Puri?

  Because there's going to be a trillion people trying to do fancy AI shit who are better suited to do that. And it's going to be an absolute bloodbath for, you know, for, for like, go look right now at the number of AI tools that are coming out every single day. Um, and you know, it's like,

• 1:03:54Sam Parr?

  Most of them do seem shit though. You're right. I mean, like,

• 1:03:57Shaan Puri?

  It doesn't matter. There's just swarms that they're all going to get just like wiped out. Every GPT release wipes out a whole wave of like, even the successful ones. Cause it's like, oh, now that's just a feature of chat GPT. And so I, I don't know. I, I think it's like, know your nature and like, you know, it's okay to not have to do every new thing. Uh, unless that's your nature, unless like, like for Darbush, it is his nature. For me, it is a lot more my nature than it is yours. And there's pros and cons that come with that. And so I think,

• 1:04:23Sam Parr?

  Are you, uh, are you going to go in? I mean, Sean, Sean's got a new idea that he's sticking with and he's been telling me a little bit about it.

• 1:04:30Dharmesh Shah?

  I have one piece of tactical advice I have to share with you, Sam.

• 1:04:35Dharmesh Shah?

  So I was going through the application process on Hampton last night, like 2 a.m. And this is super tactical, but this is what we do here on MFM. Question number nine on the application process is what's your role? Question mark. It's a required question. Good. The subtext is CEOs, founders and partners only, please. That's the subtext. The options are founder, CEO, owner and other. The one thing I would tweet if I were you. So what you're doing is you're saying, hey, we're about founders and owners. And if you're not one of them, don't bother. Thank you for not bothering. Go away. So focus is a magical thing. I love that. But you're doing what I call a pre-filter, right?

• 1:05:19Dharmesh Shah?

  Which is why not say, oh, this is for CEOs, owners or whatever. Don't make them feel guilty for going through the rest of the process because there may be a future version of Sam and Hampton that says, oh, you know what? We solved this problem. But that same problem around people needing therapy from peer groups applies a lot to like VPs of product. And that community right now, the only communities they can find are people that want to talk about product management. And no one wants to talk about relationships and there's an opportunity there. And so it costs you literally nothing. They'll still answer the question. It'll be sitting in your database for a year or forever. And it costs you nothing. Don't, don't push them out too early.

• 1:05:57Sam Parr?

  It should have been the way you suggested. Apparently I didn't give that feedback. Grant, if you're listening.

• 1:06:05Shaan Puri?

  This is a direct order from Darbas. Change question nine, please.

• 1:06:10Shaan Puri?

  Grant, do this before you get replaced by AI.

• 1:06:14Sam Parr?

  But Sean, you're telling me, thank you, Darbas. Sean, you were telling me about stuff that you're thinking about. And it was pretty, it was somewhat old school, like what you're, the thing. So are you like questioning that after this conversation? And you're like, oh, man, this is like.

• 1:06:27Shaan Puri?

  Not after this conversation necessarily, but it's a snowball that's building, right? Like, there's a reason I cleared my calendar to just mess around with AI all week because. I'm interested in it. And when you it's like, let's go see what's real there. And I did the same thing with crypto during that during, you know, when crypto was really interesting intriguing. I was like, okay, let me go try to mint an NFT. Let me go try to actually like use DeFi and see what's going on here and what parts make sense and what parts don't make sense. Oh, that was pretty frictionless. Like, that's cool that I could just like get a loan in one button and I could pay it back in one button. I never had to talk to a human being like, I really like that. Hey, this thing says the yield is 20%. I don't really understand where they would get 20% from. So not sure, but I'm going to, you know, put a small amount of money in just to learn. You know, I was, I was trying to play with it, trying to think for myself is the big

• 1:07:12Shaan Puri?

  idea. And, and it's not like some binary thing like, is crypto good? Is crypto bad? It's like, I want to know where it's at right now. I want to see it develop. And my best way to do that is immersion. I actually stole this from the, from Bill Gates. Bill Gates does his reading week where he goes to a cabin and he reads a shit ton of books for a week about one topic that it's like been on his mind, but he hasn't had the appropriate amount of time to roll up his sleeves and dig in. And I was like, oh, that, but without books, just give me a, you know, Chrome browser and I'm good to go. And so, um, so that's what we've been doing. And there genuinely are so many like mind blowing moments and also just like,

• 1:07:48Shaan Puri?

  just understanding the nuances of things. So for like, just being able to think like the computer, like, you know, you were talking about these facets, for example. So I was playing around with mid journey. Like Sam, do you know what mid journey is? Or do you know how to use it?

• 1:07:59Sam Parr?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I just been goofing off and I'll just be like, show me what's Cartman from South Park looks like as a real person.

• 1:08:07Shaan Puri?

  Right. And like, you know, I was like, and I was, the way I approached it was, can I replace work that I already want to do with a more efficient AI workflow? That was like one of the things. And then it was, what's really fun, random shit I could do. I wanted to be on those ends of the spectrum, like highly utilitarian for me. So it's like, oh, I need a logo for my thing, but I don't want just like a logo. I want to create a whole brand. All right. How, how can I use AI to create a whole brand here? So from the, the icons to T-shirt designs to a website? Can I do that with just AI and not have to touch it, not have to hire a single designer? And can I do that with just like my own imagination and this prompt thing? And then, oh, how do you do prompting? And like, which of these tools is the best? And what's the difference? So that, that was like one whole area. Another was like, we took the podcast.

• 1:08:53Shaan Puri?

  And we did this thing that was kind of sick. We took the podcast and we ran it through this thing. So we took the pod and we then used OpenAI has this thing called Whisper, which transcribes any video. So it's like, put in a YouTube link to this tool, it'll take Whisper and it'll give you the transcript. All right, cool. It takes the transcript. Then I put it into ChatGPT and we had this guy write this little prompt for us. Like, we had to get the right prompt, but he wrote this prompt that was awesome, which was basically like, it's really funny. It goes, because ChatGPT can only take so many characters. So it goes, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you 19 text sections. I don't want you to do anything until you're at section 19. So ignore everything until I'm done with 19 and then answer the prompt that I give you.

• 1:09:36Shaan Puri?

  And ChatGPT was like, okay, I will, I will wait for the 19 parts. You copy paste part one, two, three, four, all the way to 19. And then you go, the prompt is, I want you to pull out every idea, story and framework that's discussed in this podcast. I want you to summarize it and I want you to tell me, does this idea exist already or not exist? So it can guess based on the way we were talking about it. Are we talking about something we saw that exists? Or just an idea that somebody should go do? So like from this pod, it would be like, uh, using vector, using, using this, this vector, you know, uh, dimensions or I forgot what you called it, vector engine or whatever, to, uh, potentially create a dating site, um, that would match people in ways that they're, you know, sort of similar,

• 1:10:20Shaan Puri?

  um, using, using AI. And it would be like, does this idea exist? No. Who is the source of this, uh, Dharmesh? What was the, the synopsis of the idea? Blank. What is the category that it's in? AI. And so then it took that and it takes the whole episode and it just created a database of every story, framework and idea from the thing with these tags. And now a human can go back and like tweak them if something was wrong. But like, that's a lot of the work that was done. Uh, and we could just do this with the whole back, like back catalog of our podcast. And so I'm trying to use it first for my own benefit. And then along the way, if I see a business of startup idea that I'm like, oh, somebody should productize this. Or somebody should, um, do whatever, like, you know, the simple example is this Kanye thing.

• 1:11:06Shaan Puri?

  I was like, why is this not the most viral app in the world right now? That basically is an app with a one button that says, You know, say something and then it's gonna, when you, when you let go of that button, it's gonna turn it into Kanye saying that thing and go share that to TikTok. And like, you might get sued, but you will go viral, right? That's the trade there, but I'm like, that's crazy. There's no front end for this really cool, you know, AI demo that exists now. So yeah, I'm just, right now I'm in the go play around with it. See if anything really, really strikes me. And if something does, then, then, then take the next steps.

• 1:11:41Dharmesh Shah?

  There's one thread there, Sam, Sean, that I, I think we should pull on, which is you used, you talked about this kind of crafting of the prompt in order to kind of make the thing do what you needed it to do. And that's entirely new skill now called prompt engineering, right? And it's analogous to software engineering. So software engineering is getting a computer to do what you want by speaking to it in its language. And that way you can kind of get the results you're looking for. Prompt engineering is almost exactly the same thing, except you're talking to a large language model, something like a GPT-4 to kind of get it to produce. So you're talking to AI to get it to produce the thing that you want. And so I think this is another kind of opportunity for folks that are kind of technology minded, but not like software engineers, right?

• 1:12:24Dharmesh Shah?

  So they, they kind of can think about the problems they're had, they're good at. And they may be good writers, they may be good analysts, they may be good at kind of describing a thing. But like prompt engineering is going to be like another big, like a big thing. And by the way, as long as we're dropping things, so I bought two domains recently.

• 1:12:44Shaan Puri?

  Buy one, get one free.

• 1:12:46Dharmesh Shah?

  But that, yeah, right.

• 1:12:47Shaan Puri?

  Buy one, get one free?

• 1:12:48Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah, I wish, but this one's not, it's not eight figures, it's seven figures. And the domain is prompt.com. And this one, I actually have an idea around what to, kind of what to do with that, which is, there's going to be this entire, I'm not going to get into details of it yet because it's too good of an idea to actually just kind of put out there in the world. And I'm not, I'm not ready yet to do something about it, but uh, once I get some.

• 1:13:16Sam Parr?

  But wait, prompt, prompt.com goes to like a coaching for essays?

• 1:13:21Dharmesh Shah?

  I know, but this, the transfer is still happening. I don't have the domain in my possession yet, but the, the deal is done.

• 1:13:29Sam Parr?

  Dude, so your, your, your portfolio of domains, I mean, mid eight figures then.

• 1:13:36Sam Parr?

  Yeah, tens of millions.

• 1:13:38Dharmesh Shah?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:13:39Sam Parr?

  Fucking insane. Dude, I feel amped. I like when we were talking, when we were talking to Pomp, I like wanted to go like hide under the covers because he freaked me out about the billion or the million dollar Bitcoin thing and the banks with this thing. I'm like, I gotta clear my schedule. I gotta go learn all about this. I mean, I feel amped. This is awesome.

• 1:13:59Shaan Puri?

  Before we go, give us your two minute reaction to Balaji's warning slash bet that the US dollar will crash and Bitcoin will surge to $1 million.

• 1:14:09Dharmesh Shah?

  I'll say this, and I don't know him personally, but he's like quite literally one of the top five people I've ever encountered, like even on the internet in terms of raw, what I call wattage, just raw horsepower. And he's like an AI unto himself, right? Like just the, just the knowledge that he has. Having said that, I think I understand why he's taking the extreme positions because that's sometimes what you have to do to kind of shake the world out of its reverie. And it's like, okay, pay attention here. This is important. But if I were a betting person, I would not bet that the odds are what, what you think they are. Could happen, but nowhere near the probability

• 1:14:54Dharmesh Shah?

  that he's suggesting.

• 1:14:56Sam Parr?

  I feel better now. I feel better. You're, I like your opinion better. Therefore, I think it's true.

• 1:15:07Dharmesh Shah?

  We should wrap on this because one of the things that happens anytime new technology comes along, we saw this a little bit in, in the kind of crypto web pre-world as well, is that entrepreneurial minded folks will see this kind of new thing and they will look for kind of the quick turnaround. I'm all for creating value quickly, but it has to be like creating value. Don't play the arbitrage. Oh, I'm gonna do this thing. This is like day trading back in the day or whatever. It's like, don't be a grifter, right? Like be, be something that's

• 1:15:35Sam Parr?

  We're just gonna build, we're gonna build a shitty app and put web three at the end of

• 1:15:38Dharmesh Shah?

  Yeah, like just don't take advantage of people. There's enough real problems to solve where real money can be made. And yes, this technology can now be used in creative ways by lots of people and you should use those. But don't use as an excuse just to Kind of be like an AI tourist that comes through, makes a little bit of money or whatever. And then that was that. There's a bigger opportunity. I think you're shortchanging yourselves. If that's what you end up doing.

• 1:16:03Sam Parr?

  Well, thank you, Dharmesh.

• 1:16:05Dharmesh Shah?

  Thank you for coming.

• 1:16:06Sam Parr?

  This is awesome, man. Yeah, well, thank you for coming on the pod. This is awesome. I feel pumped, man. I always like talking to you.

• 1:16:16Sam Parr?

  I don't know if you know this, Sean. I slack Dharmesh all the time. I'll just be like, I'm just trying to get him to like, give me a little like crumbs of information. Because I need to get into the HubSpot Slack. It's awesome. I'll just like, just send something his way. Just hopefully I can get something back. But it's fascinating and I feel lucky to be able to have you as a friend and coworker. And this is awesome. And a podcast guest, this is so fascinating. And I agree with what Sean said about like, kind of like looking up to you and like, looking at how people live their lives. You're definitely someone I admire. So I'm happy you came here.

• 1:16:49Dharmesh Shah?

  Thanks. Thanks for having me on again. This is fun as always.

• 1:16:52Sam Parr?

  Awesome. All right. Thanks for coming on. That's it. That's the pod.