Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 21: Because 7 8 9 About this episode It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 21: Because 7 8 9, when Karen covered the Cleveland Elementary School Shootings by Brenda Spencer and Georgia discussed serial killer Jane Toppan. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more!
Transcript 11,119 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:06 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book.
0:10 Karen Kilgariff? Well, grow up, because it's almost impossible.
0:12 Georgia Hardstark? Luckily, you can take your next great story with you on Audible.
0:15 Karen Kilgariff? Audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from, including This American Life, new books by Michael Connelly, along with classics from Magathah Christie, and so much more.
0:24 Georgia Hardstark? Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.
0:29 Karen Kilgariff? New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.
0:34 Georgia Hardstark? Audible, stories that speak to you. Goodbye.
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1:24 Georgia Hardstark? Hello.
1:26 Karen Kilgariff? And welcome.
1:27 Georgia Hardstark? To Rewind with Karen and Georgia. This is the show where we take you back to good old 2016 to revisit some of our very first episodes and talk about everything that's changed since and everything that's kind of fucking stayed the same.
1:39 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, there's, there's a lot of repeats. There's a lot of consistency. So today, we are revisiting our 21st episode. We titled it Because 789, a beloved childhood joke for everybody except for the number nine.
1:55 Georgia Hardstark? It's a classic. And now, because of Rewind, we can all be day one listeners.
2:00 Karen Kilgariff? Are you ready? Are you ready to get into this?
2:02 Georgia Hardstark? Episode 21, we're of age now.
2:04 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, at this point, I think we, in the podcast back then, we probably really think we know what we're doing. 21 under our belt.
2:13 Georgia Hardstark? We're getting going, things are looking up for us.
2:17 Karen Kilgariff? We're really getting it together. All right, let's listen to part of our intro for episode 21.
2:27 Georgia Hardstark? Let's get settled in.
2:29 Karen Kilgariff? Well, all right.
2:30 Georgia Hardstark? Let's get cozy and comfy. Light some candles.
2:33 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, did you start?
2:34 Georgia Hardstark? I think this is it.
2:36 Karen Kilgariff? I think this is the last episode.
2:37 Georgia Hardstark? Do I normally talk like that, Karen?
2:40 Karen Kilgariff? Kind of presentationally?
2:42 Georgia Hardstark? Cozy and comfy.
2:44 Karen Kilgariff? Georgia, are you seducing me in your own home?
2:49 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, welcome.
2:51 Georgia Hardstark? Hi, this is my favorite murder Karen is taking a drink of water. I'm Georgia.
2:56 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know that every once in a while a hey comes out. It feels like I have to do it sometimes. Like, I don't have a choice.
3:02 Georgia Hardstark? Get it out of your system.
3:03 Karen Kilgariff? Hi.
3:06 Georgia Hardstark? Bye.
3:06 Karen Kilgariff? Bye.
3:09 Karen Kilgariff? Welcome to episode 21 of the podcast that rocks you to sleep at night and then shocks you awake at 3 a.m. with bad feelings. And yet, you still want to be friends with it.
3:23 Georgia Hardstark? We've become, um, we've become, we're now a sleep helping podcast. We're like the podcast Sleep With Me that I'm obsessed with. Except we'll make you stay awake all night.
3:32 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
3:32 Georgia Hardstark? So it's for people who don't want to fall asleep ever again.
3:37 Karen Kilgariff? Are you a night shift security guard?
3:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
3:40 Karen Kilgariff? You might want to listen to this podcast.
3:41 Georgia Hardstark? Do you have manic depression? And you're just gonna be up all night anyways?
3:45 Karen Kilgariff? Then jump on board. Do you, uh, maybe have a colicky baby?
3:50 Georgia Hardstark? Are you a murderer? A serial killer?
3:53 Karen Kilgariff? Are you, um...
3:54 Georgia Hardstark? Burglar.
3:55 Karen Kilgariff? A burglar? Are you a cat burglar?
3:57 Georgia Hardstark? Are you a cat burglar?
3:58 Karen Kilgariff? Let us sneak along the rooftops with you. We'd love to.
4:02 Georgia Hardstark? Let's do it.
4:03 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
4:07 Karen Kilgariff? I worked, um, today, as most Americans did.
4:10 Georgia Hardstark? Not me.
4:13 Karen Kilgariff? But you did do something.
4:14 Georgia Hardstark? Uh, no.
4:16 Karen Kilgariff? Really? Were you in that outfit all day?
4:18 Georgia Hardstark? Not this one. This is actually cuter than what I was wearing all day. And this is a fucking house dress.
4:23 Karen Kilgariff? Georgia has a house dress on that, uh, looks like something from Bewitched, but hotter.
4:32 Georgia Hardstark? It's like a key party, like a casual key party outfit.
4:35 Karen Kilgariff? It's like a tomato red with gold brocade, sleeveless, mini house dress. I mean, they don't make them like that anymore.
4:44 Georgia Hardstark? Karen, I'm trying to seduce you.
4:46 Karen Kilgariff? Girl.
4:46 Georgia Hardstark? You were correct.
4:47 Karen Kilgariff? Girl, it's working. Uh, I don't need a house dress.
4:52 Georgia Hardstark? Um, yeah.
4:53 Karen Kilgariff? Just mean murder stories.
4:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yay.
4:55 Karen Kilgariff? That's the sad truth.
4:56 Georgia Hardstark? That's all that, yeah.
4:58 Karen Kilgariff? Have you, I'm trying to think of like, have I've ever been to a party or a situation where a guy has talked about this topic we love so much.
5:08 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
5:08 Karen Kilgariff? Kind of brought it up themselves.
5:09 Georgia Hardstark? Like you've bonded, you've been like, I got, I had the best conversation with this guy last night.
5:13 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
5:14 Georgia Hardstark? Like across a crowded room.
5:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:16 Georgia Hardstark? Gosh.
5:17 Karen Kilgariff? Gosh.
5:18 Georgia Hardstark? I don't think so.
5:19 Karen Kilgariff? I don't either.
5:21 Georgia Hardstark? What is happening over there?
5:22 Karen Kilgariff? Kev's just playing with these.
5:23 Georgia Hardstark? There's a kitten in the room. Everyone should know this.
5:26 Karen Kilgariff? Georgia's upping the cat factor by 1,000 with a cat, a kitten named Kevin.
5:32 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God, like, and he's being very loud right now, but he's so cute.
5:36 Karen Kilgariff? He's super, um, he looks, Georgia won't admit that she bought a purebred cat.
5:40 Georgia Hardstark? I did not buy, I did not buy, adopt, don't shop, god damn it.
5:45 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, this cat looks so purebred, though.
5:47 Georgia Hardstark? He is.
5:48 Karen Kilgariff? It's weird.
5:48 Georgia Hardstark? He's a Link's Point Siamese. He's purebred. However, he was found, I don't know, let's say in a dumpster.
5:54 Karen Kilgariff? Let's say in a tiny cat-sized dumpster.
5:56 Georgia Hardstark? A tiny cat-sized dumpster. He was bottle-fed.
5:59 Karen Kilgariff? He was bottle-fed by a raccoon.
6:01 Georgia Hardstark? He was somewhat, somewhat, a cat burglar stole him from a purebred breeding place.
6:06 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
6:06 Georgia Hardstark? And is now adopting them out.
6:08 Karen Kilgariff? And then a family of frogs that were vests raised him down by a pond.
6:12 Georgia Hardstark? Stop it. That's so cute. The mom accepted them as her baby.
6:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yep. And Kevin read on, wrote on the mom frog's back, uh, until they were like, this hurts. I gotta get rid of this cat.
6:23 Georgia Hardstark? There's Georgia's house. Let's drop him off.
6:25 Karen Kilgariff? Do, do, and they are.
6:27 Georgia Hardstark? But they rode their lily pad right up.
6:29 Karen Kilgariff? Am I hallucinating?
6:30 Georgia Hardstark? Are we both high? Neither of us got high before this.
6:34 Karen Kilgariff? This is, this is adding to the dream, the sleep podcast.
6:37 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, right, meandering stories, meandering stories.
6:40 Karen Kilgariff? We're gonna add, we're gonna try to add along with all the horrible visuals that we feed straight, straight into your brain. We're also adding some fun toad in a vest visuals.
6:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, some like, um, some like acid visuals, some fucking, let's say you're on peyote. Have you ever done peyote?
6:57 Karen Kilgariff? No, God.
6:59 Georgia Hardstark? I've never been offered peyote in my life.
7:01 Karen Kilgariff? I don't, don't you have to go to the Andes or something to get that shit?
7:05 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
7:07 Karen Kilgariff? Or?
7:07 Georgia Hardstark? Ayahuasca.
7:08 Karen Kilgariff? Be friends with Duncan Tressel or something? I am friends with him.
7:12 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I am.
7:13 Karen Kilgariff? I, name drop. Sorry if you can't handle it.
7:19 Karen Kilgariff? Are you?
7:20 Georgia Hardstark? Are you? Uh, yeah.
7:27 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, we're back. I do remember the red house dress.
7:31 Karen Kilgariff? You do?
7:32 Georgia Hardstark? Orangey red house dress I was wearing. It's in tatters now, but I don't get rid of anything, so I'm pretty certain I still have it.
7:37 Karen Kilgariff? Pull that box out of the attic and let's make a quilt out of your old house dress.
7:42 Georgia Hardstark? Unfortunately, I don't have the foster kitten Kevin anymore.
7:45 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
7:46 Georgia Hardstark? What a cutie he was.
7:47 Karen Kilgariff? Kevin!
7:48 Georgia Hardstark? He was so cute. I just kept trying to introduce kittens into Elvis's life because I just, but every time it would like, he'd be like, "What are you doing? I'm an elderly man already."
7:58 Karen Kilgariff? He's like, "No, this is not how this works, and I am absolutely in charge of this household."
8:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So, three cats in an apartment wasn't gonna happen, which is probably for the best.
8:07 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, yeah. Looking back, right? It's so clear.
8:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
8:10 Karen Kilgariff? But at the time, you were just kinda trying to be like, "Hey, there are a lot of homeless kittens out there. I wanna help them."
8:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and like, if my cats aren't cuddling, I'm just gonna keep introducing other cats until someone starts fucking cuddling. You know what I mean? Like, I don't, I just, I just wanna see two animals snuggling. And for some reason, I have this like, magnetic forced cats that don't cuddle with each other.
8:30 Karen Kilgariff? They're not, I feel like, don't cats kinda have to be related to cuddle?
8:34 Georgia Hardstark? No. No, no, no. Oh my god, no. Don't get me started on this. It's gonna make me cry.
8:38 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. It's just more personality time?
8:40 Georgia Hardstark? It's personality, yeah.
8:42 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm. Okay.
8:43 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, I'm gonna cry.
8:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, no crying yet. Not yet. Not about that.
8:48 Georgia Hardstark? This is also when we both, I guess, start to say "Hi!"
8:51 Karen Kilgariff? Hi!
8:52 Georgia Hardstark? That's close to the intro, but not exactly.
8:56 Karen Kilgariff? No, and I think the reason we kind of adjusted it is because "Hi!" was actually a quote from Alaska, from Drag Race, and we didn't wanna be like, fully ripping off someone's actual, you know?
9:06 Georgia Hardstark? Intro.
9:07 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know. Intro, greeting, whatever.
9:09 Georgia Hardstark? Sure. That's really noble of us.
9:11 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, we're, that's what we're like. We're just really good people, deep down.
9:16 Georgia Hardstark? Truly. As all podcasters are. It's kind of a rule. Okay, so this episode, we both do, we don't talk about it, but we both end up doing female killers.
9:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
9:26 Georgia Hardstark? Just randomly.
9:27 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's really funny, in this one, I'm asking you, "Did you start recording?"
9:34 Karen Kilgariff? So again, you're the sound man or woman, sound person. But it's that kind of thing where like you don't, I don't even know. Like, we don't know what's going on to the point where it's not like you're going, and here we go.
9:47 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
9:48 Karen Kilgariff? It's just like, wait, did we start?
9:50 Georgia Hardstark? Did we? I don't know.
9:50 Karen Kilgariff? Is this going?
9:51 Georgia Hardstark? Do we have equipment? Is it on? I don't know. I don't know because I don't do that for a living.
9:56 Karen Kilgariff? Right. It's just like how you started our line of merch and just kept a little tally on a piece of paper. You don't do that for a living.
10:04 Georgia Hardstark? You guys, this was like, this was like homegrown punk rock from the very beginning. We didn't know what we were doing and we didn't for a long time, but we acted like it and that's what's key.
10:15 Karen Kilgariff? And you know what? You acted like it and that was what truly brought it all together because Jesus Christ, there were reasons to not.
10:22 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely.
10:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
10:23 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely. There's always reasons to not and that's why you keep going.
10:28 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so now we're going to get into the actual stories. And Georgia went first on this episode, so let's listen to Georgia's story about the Cleveland elementary school shootings.
10:44 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
10:48 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
10:53 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.
10:57 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
11:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.
11:40 Karen Kilgariff? That's simplisafe.com/mfm and when you order. Write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.
11:47 Georgia Hardstark? Simply safe, ahead of crime, in real time.
11:50 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.
11:56 Georgia Hardstark? So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.
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12:22 Georgia Hardstark? Plus, Article's customer care team is available seven days a week. I know we're getting into fall and winter, but we live in Los Angeles, so my outdoor furniture is just like the perfect focal point for the pool parties we still end up having. Sorry everyone when it's like sunny and gorgeous year round. I sit on my Article patio furniture every morning and have my coffee and watch Cookie in the sun. And the whole thing is just so peaceful and pretty. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
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12:57 Georgia Hardstark? That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.
13:02 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. The most annoying thing about dinner is that you have to keep making it.
13:06 Georgia Hardstark? And every single time, you have to figure out what you're going to eat.
13:09 Karen Kilgariff? It's time to take some of that work off your plate with Hungry Root.
13:12 Georgia Hardstark? Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper and nutritionist all wrapped into one. They'll take care of the weekly grocery shopping and recommend groceries and meals tailored to you. It's so nice having Hungry Root just take care of the thinking part of dinner because I swear, like every 10 minutes of my life is what's for dinner. I'm so sick of it. And so I love when you can just open your fridge and be like, okay, great. We have roasted chicken with fries and broccoli from Hungry Root. Or wagyu ribeye steak with green goddess potatoes. Great. Let's go with that. I don't want to think about it. That sounds amazing and it's easy.
13:47 Karen Kilgariff? It's easy and it's good for you. You're not just ordering another pizza. You're gonna love Hungry Root.
13:52 Georgia Hardstark? For a love at a time, get 40% off your first order, plus get a free item in every box for life.
13:57 Karen Kilgariff? Go to hungryroot.com/mfm and use code MFM.
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14:08 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
14:10 Karen Kilgariff? I think you're first this week.
14:12 Georgia Hardstark? I am first.
14:13 Karen Kilgariff? Skippers, it's time to cut back in.
14:15 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, ready? And stop skipping now. Now. All right. So two things made me want to do this murder. My favorite murder this week. One of which was I finished an audiobook called, We Need to Talk About Kevin.
14:32 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
14:33 Georgia Hardstark? Which was a book about, it was a book written, fictional book, written by the mother of a kid who had done a school shooting.
14:42 Karen Kilgariff? Mm hmm.
14:43 Georgia Hardstark? And it was the letter to, it was the whole, all the letters were to the father. And it was like, how they raised this kid and what happened and why he became who he became. And it was a really good book. And I just finished that. And then on Sunday morning, the fucking Orlando shootings happened.
15:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
15:02 Georgia Hardstark? And it was, it's horrific and awful and disgusting. And so I kind of had, was looking at the Facebook page and found this information that I had never known about before, that I wanted to talk about. The Cleveland Elementary School shooting.
15:19 Karen Kilgariff? Uh oh.
15:19 Georgia Hardstark? Do you know this one?
15:20 Karen Kilgariff? No.
15:21 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. It took place on January 29th, 1979, in San Diego, California. Shots were fired at a public elementary school. And the person who was doing the shooting lived in a house across the street from the school. And her name was Brenda Spencer. She was 16 years old.
15:43 Karen Kilgariff? Holy shit, Brenda.
15:44 Georgia Hardstark? There is the fucking.
15:46 Karen Kilgariff? Wait, can I ask a question? Is this I don't like Monday?
15:49 Georgia Hardstark? I don't like Monday.
15:50 Karen Kilgariff? I'm sorry.
15:51 Georgia Hardstark? The Boomtown Rants, yes.
15:52 Karen Kilgariff? Is the, sorry.
15:54 Georgia Hardstark? It's okay.
15:54 Karen Kilgariff? I was just so proud. It's my favorite.
15:57 Georgia Hardstark? That's okay.
15:57 Karen Kilgariff? But I don't know the story. I only know that a girl did it and that girl said it.
16:01 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. So Brenda Spencer, she lived in a house across the street from the school and she would become known as the mother of schoolyard massacres such as Columbine. She was like the first school shooter. So on the morning of January 29th, 1979, she began shooting from her home at children who were waiting outside Cleveland Elementary School, which was across the street from her house. The first person that she killed was the principal, Burton Rag, and he was opening the gates to the school, 53 years old, ran outside to help the victims and helped get rid of the children and move them inside. And he got, he got shot in the chest. And then Michael Schuh, I want to say Schuh, Schuchar, S U
16:46 Georgia Hardstark? C H A R, Schuchar?
16:49 Karen Kilgariff? Schuh or Shooter?
16:50 Georgia Hardstark? Schuh. He was 56. He was a school custodian, rushed out to help the dying principal, and he was shot. So those were the two fatalities, but eight children were injured. So then the San Diego police officer, Robert Robb, was the first to arrive at the scene, and he got a bullet in his neck. And I've heard conflicting, I read conflicting stories that he, someone moved, commandeered a garbage truck and drove it in front of the school because they could tell where the sniper was. And I heard it was this officer who got shot in the neck, but others are saying he just arrived and got shot in the neck. So I don't, I'm not sure, but I don't want to not give him credit if that's the case.
17:30 Karen Kilgariff? That's so smart.
17:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, right?
17:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
17:33 Georgia Hardstark? Like, what a quick action to take that you just block the shooter.
17:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I would have never thought of that.
17:38 Georgia Hardstark? And putting yourself in harm's way like that.
17:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's amazing. Whoever thought of it?
17:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
17:44 Karen Kilgariff? High five.
17:45 Georgia Hardstark? How pissed off was she when that happened?
17:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. It's like the best move.
17:50 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So after firing 30 rounds of ammunition, she, Spencer barricaded herself inside her home for like, it was like six hours. So then, on a hunch, a reporter from the local paper called the phone number that was associated with the address, and a young girl answered. It was Barbara. The reporter asked if she knew where the shots were coming from, and she said her address. And the reporter pointed that out. She said, yeah, who do you think's doing the shooting? And the next question was why? And she said, I don't like Mondays. This livens up the day.
18:27 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I weirdly have chills right now.
18:30 Georgia Hardstark? Chills.
18:32 Karen Kilgariff? Because also, sorry, but 16 is it's such a rough age anyway.
18:38 Georgia Hardstark? And that answer is so sad.
18:40 Karen Kilgariff? It's it's someone that gave up like.
18:43 Georgia Hardstark? Someone that, yeah, doesn't understand this, the levity of what they're doing. Is that the right word?
18:49 Karen Kilgariff? It's the opposite, but I understand gravity of what you're doing.
18:52 Georgia Hardstark? Gravity of what they're doing. That would have sounded so much better if I had gotten that word right.
18:59 Karen Kilgariff? This is what we're about, not sounding dead.
19:01 Georgia Hardstark? My favorite murder. She spoke with police negotiators who were telling
19:08 Georgia Hardstark? that telling them that she had shot the telling those she had they had made easy targets. And that's why she'd shot them, which is so fucking creepy. And she was going to come out shooting, but ultimately she surrendered. And the police found beer and whiskey bottles around the house, but she didn't appear to be intoxicated.
19:29 Karen Kilgariff? Also, this is probably not the greatest home life.
19:34 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
19:34 Karen Kilgariff? Perhaps.
19:35 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Well, 14 years into her sentence, she gave a TV interview, which she said that she was high on whiskey, angel dust and pot.
19:42 Karen Kilgariff? What? Hold on. That's not that combination is insane.
19:47 Georgia Hardstark? But here's the thing is that at the time of her arrest, her toxicology reports came back clean.
19:53 Karen Kilgariff? So is she lying?
19:55 Georgia Hardstark? Either she's lying or the toxicology reports were incorrect. And keep in mind, she's saying these things at a parole hearing.
20:05 Karen Kilgariff? So it wouldn't get her anything to lie.
20:07 Georgia Hardstark? No, it would. It would get her out. I mean, you would think that if she was.
20:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, like that's her excuse. Okay.
20:13 Georgia Hardstark? However, there but there were those bottles around the house because her dad was like a fucking alcoholic.
20:18 Karen Kilgariff? But I sorry, it's just so crazy to I just think, sure, you drink whiskey and then you smoke pot. Angel dust is like what insane bikers do.
20:29 Georgia Hardstark? San Diego. That's like that was like a suburb back then, right?
20:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. I mean, it's the like a chill beach town and like.
20:37 Georgia Hardstark? I was talking about like, has anyone ever offered you peyote? No. And they have ever offered you angel dust?
20:42 Karen Kilgariff? No, like we you could barely get pot when I was growing up. That was like you were so excited when someone's cousin came back from Hawaii or whatever.
20:50 Georgia Hardstark? And it was almost like there was this remember Dare was that?
20:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:53 Georgia Hardstark? Did you have that then?
20:54 Karen Kilgariff? Mm hmm.
20:54 Georgia Hardstark? So Dare was, what was it?
20:58 Karen Kilgariff? Dare to keep your kids off drugs. Drug addicts really engaged.
21:06 Karen Kilgariff? I know mothers against drug driving.
21:08 Georgia Hardstark? Basically, in the eighties and early nineties, there was this like program to keep kids off drugs called Dare.
21:13 Karen Kilgariff? I'm on drugs.
21:15 Georgia Hardstark? Dare is on drugs. And I was in that. I was like in the perfect, you know, in the epicenter of that. Thanks, Nancy Ray. And.
21:24 Karen Kilgariff? Where you had to pledge, right?
21:25 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
21:26 Karen Kilgariff? That you wouldn't do drugs.
21:27 Georgia Hardstark? And at the time, I was like, when I was like in sixth grade, I was like, well, I'm never going to do angel dust, but I kind of want to try pot, you know? But like, I thought that would lead to angel dust. And when I found out like that my parents smoked pot and that like people I knew smoked pot, it was like, oh, everything is a lie. So I'm just going to do everything, you know?
21:47 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
21:47 Georgia Hardstark? Just say something.
21:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
21:49 Georgia Hardstark? Like, no one gets angel dust, is my point.
21:51 Karen Kilgariff? Exactly. It's a crazy, unless her father was some kind of like.
21:55 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
21:56 Karen Kilgariff? Dealer or a biker or like somebody that kind of lives in that fringe life. But when you do angel dust, you go insane and you have superhuman strength and.
22:06 Georgia Hardstark? It sounds like something she would have made up because she didn't know.
22:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
22:10 Georgia Hardstark? You know what I mean?
22:10 Karen Kilgariff? It sounds like, yeah, it sounds like a very fakey dumb combination.
22:13 Georgia Hardstark? Like saying cocaine would have made more sense, but she probably didn't even like know to say that.
22:18 Karen Kilgariff? Although, if we refer back to the classic film Friday, there is that part where Chris Tucker's pot is laced with angel dust and he ends up in the pigeon coop. Remember? He's like freaking out. I mean, it happens like, but, but, but I also don't think you'd be able to shoot a gun very accurately if you were on angel dust.
22:38 Georgia Hardstark? Also, why would someone put angel dust in pot? Like, you're just spending more money.
22:42 Karen Kilgariff? Because they're trying to ruin your Rolling Stones concert.
22:46 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, sure. I don't know. Kitten is going crazy. Okay. Um, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So, so, so her parents had separated before this happened and she lived with her father, Wallace Spencer, in virtual poverty. And they slept on a single mattress in the living room floor.
23:05 Karen Kilgariff? Together?
23:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yep. Acquaintances later said that Spencer, that she expressed negative attitudes towards police and had talked about shooting one. Teachers described her as introverted and she started hanging out with other troubled youth and became obsessed with Alice Cooper. Which like, yeah, which actually, he's like a crazy intellectual. It's like so hard to think about people like using him as an excuse. And he's like an incredible intellectual.
23:30 Karen Kilgariff? And also, isn't he super into golf? Like when he doesn't have makeup on?
23:34 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
23:35 Karen Kilgariff? He's just like kind of an old dude with too long hair.
23:38 Georgia Hardstark? And that was like performance art, too. Like he wasn't even serious about it.
23:41 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, yeah, but I don't, when people try to say that, it's like, too bad. You're making the money off of people taking it seriously. So you have to take it seriously because it's a, I've seen Alice Cooper, like, I grew up with Alice Cooper being on TV with blood in the corner of his mouth. Everyone took it seriously. There's nothing performance art about it. It's not like you're in a black box theater.
24:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, you can be like, just kidding afterwards.
24:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
24:02 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
24:03 Karen Kilgariff? Um, I'm really mad at Alice Cooper.
24:06 Georgia Hardstark? I can tell. Is that your father? I hate you, Dad.
24:09 Karen Kilgariff? I hate you. I will go to the dance.
24:13 Georgia Hardstark? All right, so in December, which is the month before this whole, the shooting happened, um, a psychiat, a psychiatric evaluation, um, was recommended for her and they said that she should go to a mental hospital due to her depressed state.
24:28 Karen Kilgariff? Uh oh.
24:28 Georgia Hardstark? But her father refused to give permission. I wanted to go to rehab. I said, no, no.
24:36 Karen Kilgariff? Dad says it's fine.
24:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
24:38 Karen Kilgariff? Everything's fine.
24:39 Georgia Hardstark? Look at me, I'm fine.
24:40 Karen Kilgariff? In three months, I'm dead. So is everybody else. I love that song.
24:44 Georgia Hardstark? But so, yeah, I do too. For Christmas, so he said no, he wouldn't let her go to rehab. And then for Christmas, he gave her a Ruger.
24:54 Karen Kilgariff? No.
24:55 Georgia Hardstark? A 1022 semi-automatic 22 caliber rifle. Sorry for everyone who fucking knows about guns that I just butchered that.
25:02 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, Wallace.
25:03 Georgia Hardstark? With a telescope sight and 500 rounds of ammunition.
25:06 Karen Kilgariff? No.
25:07 Georgia Hardstark? She had asked for a radio.
25:10 Karen Kilgariff? Her father gave her that gun.
25:12 Georgia Hardstark? She asked for a radio for her birthday and her dad, who had just been told that she should go to psychiatric-
25:18 Karen Kilgariff? A mental hospital.
25:20 Georgia Hardstark? Cause she was depressed, gave her a gun.
25:23 Karen Kilgariff? Well, he's a real piece of work.
25:25 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, some people shouldn't have children, it turns out.
25:28 Karen Kilgariff? Fuck, that's heavy.
25:30 Georgia Hardstark? And she said later that I felt like he wanted me to kill myself. She said.
25:34 Karen Kilgariff? Also 500 rounds?
25:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's a lot of rounds.
25:37 Karen Kilgariff? I agree.
25:38 Georgia Hardstark? In 2001 later, she accused her father of having drunkenly subjected her to beatings and sexual abuse. But he said the allegations were not true.
25:48 Karen Kilgariff? I don't feel good about a single mattress on the floor in the living room.
25:51 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely fucking deadly not. Um, she was tried as an adult. She finally came out with, put her gun down, came out. She was tried as an adult, pled guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon. Sentenced to prison for 25 years to life. Um, and then in prison, she was diagnosed as an epileptic.
26:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I have that.
26:11 Georgia Hardstark? I know. Uh oh.
26:13 Karen Kilgariff? Uh oh.
26:14 Georgia Hardstark? And then, and then, and she received medication while at California Institute for Women in Chino. California, it's her neighborhood, right?
26:24 Karen Kilgariff? No.
26:25 Georgia Hardstark? Great.
26:27 Georgia Hardstark? But then later, here's the fucking kicker. During tests while she was in custody, it was discovered that she had an injury to the temporal lobe of her brain attributed to her accident on her bicycle.
26:38 Karen Kilgariff? A fucking childhood head injury.
26:41 Georgia Hardstark? Send him back, like we said last-
26:42 Karen Kilgariff? Send him on back.
26:43 Georgia Hardstark? If your kid hits his head.
26:45 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, you know what? I just had a realization that all of the helmet bullshit that for years I'm like, this is dumb and these helicopter parents are crazy. What if, what if they've just wiped out an entire generation of serial killers?
26:59 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
26:59 Karen Kilgariff? By, by making sure children have helmets on all the time.
27:02 Georgia Hardstark? Definitely.
27:03 Karen Kilgariff? Dude.
27:04 Georgia Hardstark? I thought you were right.
27:05 Karen Kilgariff? That's heavy.
27:05 Georgia Hardstark? That's so heavy.
27:06 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, some will slip through just because it was meant to be.
27:08 Georgia Hardstark? Some don't even need a head injury. They're just like-
27:11 Karen Kilgariff? They're like-
27:11 Georgia Hardstark? They're some shit to begin with.
27:12 Karen Kilgariff? They're hell bent.
27:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Their parents make it sure that they're fucking just terrible.
27:17 Karen Kilgariff? That is a crazy fucking story.
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? Head injury, just like so many serial killers out there.
27:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
27:24 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck. Yeah. All right. At a hearing in 2001, she said that her father beat and sexually abused her. And she submitted a written statement in which she said that her father had begun fondling her when she was nine and sexually assaulted her virtually every night.
27:40 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
27:41 Georgia Hardstark? Which is like, why, you know, why didn't you come out with that earlier? I don't want to doubt her, but it's like, that's a hard thing to talk about when you really did these horrible things.
27:50 Karen Kilgariff? Also, she could have just maybe dissociated so that it was this, she's in this world now where she's killing people. It's like, everything is a cry for help. And maybe she was on Angel Dust.
28:00 Georgia Hardstark? And maybe she didn't understand the connection between her father sexually abusing her and her wanting to die. And so
28:07 Karen Kilgariff? And kill other people. The rage that she felt.
28:10 Georgia Hardstark? I didn't mean to victim blame. And I totally
28:12 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, no, no. We're just, we're just talking about theories.
28:16 Georgia Hardstark? And here's how you, here's, so the father never admitted to any of this, but, but
28:24 Georgia Hardstark? he was visiting her in a juvenile detention facility after her arrest. And he met a girl who resembled Brenda, but was younger. They went on to have a sexual relationship and he married her.
28:38 Karen Kilgariff? Ew.
28:39 Georgia Hardstark? So clearly, he has a fetish for fucking underage girls.
28:43 Karen Kilgariff? He doesn't not like it.
28:44 Georgia Hardstark? Like his daughter.
28:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. He's not against it.
28:47 Georgia Hardstark? Nope. That's like enough proof, I feel like.
28:49 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yeah.
28:51 Georgia Hardstark? That it's true.
28:52 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's
28:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:54 Karen Kilgariff? Insanely dark.
28:55 Georgia Hardstark? In 2009, the parole board ruled that she would be denied parole and wouldn't be considered for 10 years. So she'll be eligible again in 2019.
29:06 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
29:07 Georgia Hardstark? But in a 2001 statement, she acknowledged her possible role as the inspiration for later generations of angry
29:16 Georgia Hardstark? Kids saying, she said, quote, "With every school shooting, I feel I'm partially responsible. What if they got the idea from what I did?"
29:25 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
29:26 Georgia Hardstark? And of course, finally, the song, "I Don't Like Mondays," written by Bob Geldof for his band Boomtown Rats, was released later that year based on that song. And I just want to go ahead and say that this is, everyone listening, this is our new karaoke song.
29:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
29:42 Georgia Hardstark? "I Don't Like Mondays."
29:44 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, that song, I remember in high school finding out that that was about a school, a girl that did a school shooting, and it was just like the most fascinating thing.
29:53 Georgia Hardstark? It changes that song completely.
29:54 Karen Kilgariff? I just assumed it was British, though, since Boomtown Rats and that guy, or is he, he's Irish?
29:59 Georgia Hardstark? He's not from here.
30:00 Karen Kilgariff? I think he's Irish.
30:02 Georgia Hardstark? Is he?
30:03 Karen Kilgariff? He is not from here. Um, but, uh, yeah, I just assumed it all happened in the UK.
30:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:09 Karen Kilgariff? I'll safely say that.
30:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I know. But they were, they were playing at the time in San Diego, I think, when, when her trial was going on, they were playing in San Diego.
30:17 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, wow.
30:18 Georgia Hardstark? So they kept seeing headlines of her being the "I don't like Mondays" girl.
30:22 Karen Kilgariff? See, that super booms me out because, uh, and maybe this is just a bias because it's a female shooter, it's like, like a 16-year-old girl where I just, I so understand the mindset, no matter what. But then, fact after fact, on top of that, it's like, that girl did not have a chance.
30:38 Georgia Hardstark? Nope.
30:39 Karen Kilgariff? She didn't have a chance.
30:41 Georgia Hardstark? I wish she had had, you know, clearly some people cared about her, that they took her to a psychiatrist and that they, they put her in like a, a school for, or they put her in with counselors who, who were there for troubled youth, they tried.
30:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
30:56 Georgia Hardstark? And her fucking shitty parents.
30:57 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh, yeah.
30:58 Georgia Hardstark? Just wouldn't let her have that. Like, what if he had said, okay, and she had gone to this mental institution?
31:02 Karen Kilgariff? I know.
31:02 Georgia Hardstark? She would've done fine.
31:04 Karen Kilgariff? Also, it's so, um, I just would like to remind us all of the garbage truck part, because I really like that part.
31:11 Georgia Hardstark? What about it?
31:11 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yeah.
31:12 Georgia Hardstark? They probably saved so many lives that day.
31:14 Karen Kilgariff? Seriously, and just kind of like blocking off the whole thing of like, no, this, you're not doing this anymore.
31:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
31:18 Karen Kilgariff? Like, that's so badass.
31:20 Georgia Hardstark? It's brave and fucking...
31:22 Karen Kilgariff? It's just quick thinking and like sharp problem solving.
31:25 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
31:27 Karen Kilgariff? I like it. Um, wow, that's heavy.
31:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's fucked up, right? So that's the, uh, Cleveland Elementary School shooting.
31:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we're back. That was heavy. That was, this is one of those stories, especially in California, that's just like, can't believe this actually happened.
31:47 Georgia Hardstark? Well, it sucks so bad. I mean, we'll say this till our fucking faces turn red, but the fact that this happened in 1979, we're talking about, I'm talking about it in 2016, and it's still a topic that we must discuss and happens all the fucking time.
32:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
32:04 Georgia Hardstark? I will say, based on the details of this case, I do think the father would have been held accountable nowadays. And I really like that the parents of shooters are being treated, you know, as perpetrators, as they should be. So this father, who, allegedly abusive father, who bought her, a very depressed daughter that he refused to let get treatment, then bought her a gun, a semi-automatic rifle, for Christmas when she had asked for a radio.
32:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
32:34 Georgia Hardstark? Like, he should be held responsible. So should she, of course, but...
32:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. No, no, you're right. There's like, you can track how this happened and how clearly it was a path that could have been diverted multiple times. I do want to say, though, back then, but especially now, the idea, it's like, whoever's responsible on that end, our leadership and politicians in this country, who have politicized this event, like it is one side against another.
33:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, or it's political at all.
33:08 Karen Kilgariff? That it's political at all, as opposed to, we are letting children die at public schools, we are letting teachers and children get murdered at school, is, it's reprehensible and insane, and it has to stop. And just this, it's the idea of like, this concept has gone so far, and we have been forced to get, we have gotten used to it. It is crazy. Other countries look at us and go, this is disgusting.
33:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Well, what's so crazy, too, is that it's become a conversation... These manipulative people do this thing where they make the conversation about something else. So you're yelling about this when really that's not what it's about. It's not about gun rights. They've politicized it and made us start yelling about gun rights. When really, that's not what this is about. This is about children not being slaughtered. You know what I mean? Like, we are here having the wrong conversation. The right conversation never gets brought up.
34:06 Karen Kilgariff? Correct. And I think it's like they're saying, you cannot have any adjustments on this because any adjustment is a betrayal of my experience.
34:17 Georgia Hardstark? A violation somehow.
34:18 Karen Kilgariff? Well, as a woman in the year 2024, let me talk to you about rights being violated left, right, and center.
34:26 Georgia Hardstark? Truly.
34:27 Karen Kilgariff? Like, no, you've got to make adjustments. And the idea that you don't want to, to the detriment of children just trying to learn, like, you know, my sister and I have had multiple conversations. She has been a grammar school teacher for 30 years. She teaches first graders, like, shooter drills and lockdown drills. It's a part of her life, and it's absolutely disgusting. It's like, that kind of thing where we should stop adjusting to it and...
34:57 Georgia Hardstark? And normalizing it.
34:58 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so does this case, getting back to the story you just told, does this case have any updates now?
35:04 Georgia Hardstark? It does. So, in August of 2022, Brenda Spencer waived her right to a parole hearing until 2025, which I guess some people do because they believe they won't be able to get parole anyway. So, at the moment, now, it's 2024, she's still incarcerated at the California Institute for Women in Chino, California, but she'll have another parole hearing next year.
35:26 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think in the story, you say that she is known as like the grandmother of school shootings. So I'm sure she's like, I'm probably not ever going to get out of here.
35:37 Georgia Hardstark? Well, she does talk about that. I think I mentioned that, you know, that every time she hears about a school shooting, she's like, I am somehow also responsible for this. So it does seem like she has some remorse.
35:47 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
35:48 Georgia Hardstark? All right, so, now it's your story.
35:53 Georgia Hardstark? This might be one of the like first times you were like, let's do an old timey story. So we're not like, so it's not so fresh.
36:00 Karen Kilgariff? This is the kind of thing where it's like, clearly we're starting to process what we're doing, how we're doing it, the effect of it, all of those things, which is pretty interesting to, I mean, part of the reason it's kind of hard to look back. And then it's also kind of interesting because it's like, well, then how do you pivot if you're like, this is a concern I have all the time because, you know, we don't want to make mistakes that we made in the early days. And so suddenly it's like, but there are stories to tell and there is validity in telling them.
36:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like there's an evolution. So here is Karen's story about the deadly nurse nicknamed Jolly Jane, Jane Toppan.
36:42 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
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39:59 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
40:02 Karen Kilgariff? Well, I I took it back because of uh I kind of wanted to do this anyway, because when we talk about things, it's so funny that we fully do this podcast, love it, enjoy it, and yet bum ourselves out every week after we talk about our topics. So I was like, how about a little distance and we go back in history a little bit and we don't have to be so present day and so have to feel it so much. So I went all the way back to um 1885.
40:30 Georgia Hardstark? So I have no feelings about that.
40:32 Karen Kilgariff? Who gives a fuck?
40:33 Georgia Hardstark? No, I don't give a shit.
40:34 Karen Kilgariff? Uh weird outfits and like high neck dresses and shit.
40:38 Georgia Hardstark? Racism.
40:39 Karen Kilgariff? All kinds of isms. Uh the nurse, uh the deadly nurse Jane Toppin is my person. You may have heard of her.
40:51 Karen Kilgariff? She uh.
40:55 Georgia Hardstark? It's okay to laugh at this because it's from the 1850s.
40:58 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. Anything before 1900, you can laugh and laugh. Um she was an Irish immigrant whose mother died of tuberculosis when she was very young and whose father, a tailor, uh was a well-known alcoholic and eccentric, who some say after her mother's death, tried to sew his eyelids shut because he was so insane with grief and alcoholism.
41:24 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, what does that have to do with anything?
41:27 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, it's just like this is this, it's just painting the picture of where we're even starting with this girl who is a child when this happens. That is, it's some, some articles um say it happened. Some say it was a rumor and it was just basically everyone knew this dad was a nut.
41:44 Georgia Hardstark? That's how fucking crazy everything is.
41:45 Karen Kilgariff? He was super crazy. Yeah, it speaks more just to him and his reputation. Um the crazy tailor up the street. So a few years later, that dad drops off, her name at the time was Honor Kelly. And she's six years old and her sister is eight. And the dad drops them off at the Boston Female Asylum, which is a girls orphanage. Documents from the asylum note that the two girls were, quote, "rescued from a very miserable home."
42:19 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
42:20 Karen Kilgariff? So, yeah, so even if he wasn't crazy enough to do something as totally saw the Saw movie series as sew his own eyelids together, it was bad news. So after two years at that orphanage, Anora Kelly, if I'm saying her name right, was placed as an indentured servant in the home of Mrs. Ann C. Toppan of Lowell, Massachusetts.
42:44 Georgia Hardstark? So she was like eight or 10?
42:47 Karen Kilgariff? Eight years old.
42:48 Georgia Hardstark? Eight years old. Can you imagine being a little servant?
42:50 Karen Kilgariff? An eight-year-old indentured servant.
42:52 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe like, can you go get me my fucking, run my bath, eight-year-old?
42:56 Karen Kilgariff? Or like probably scrub the dishes and like lift shit. I mean, like, they didn't care. This was 1885.
43:01 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's so sick.
43:02 Karen Kilgariff? They didn't give a fuck.
43:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, kids were just like little humans.
43:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, this is when they were like, get them in the factory because their little arms can go into the machines.
43:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
43:11 Karen Kilgariff? It was dark.
43:12 Georgia Hardstark? Dude.
43:13 Karen Kilgariff? This is also why I love Charles Dickens, because all of his stories include all that like child labor shit.
43:19 Georgia Hardstark? That's true to life.
43:20 Karen Kilgariff? Roughly around this time, yeah, where it was like, we wouldn't know if it weren't for like those stories or be like the last thing that would ever happen to most children these days, at least in America.
43:30 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
43:33 Karen Kilgariff? Kind of. Anyway, so Anora was never officially adopted by the Toppins, but she took their surname and eventually became known as Jane Toppan.
43:47 Georgia Hardstark? Which is so weird that you're like, I'm not part of the family. I'm just your fucking servant, so I'm taking your last name.
43:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I'm your lifelong child servant, living in your house. So in 1885, she began training to be a nurse at Cambridge Hospital.
44:07 Karen Kilgariff? So during her residency, she used her patients as guinea pigs in experiments with morphine and atrophine. So she would basically go into patients who are like on more on a morphine drip. And she would give them atrophine, which I'm pretty sure is like an upper.
44:29 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
44:29 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, so she would play back and forth with sending them out and bringing them back over and over.
44:36 Georgia Hardstark? God, just let them go to sleep.
44:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, no, she, cause she basically got sexual, she got aroused sexually from seeing people be brought to the brink of death and then come back and then go back.
44:48 Georgia Hardstark? The fuck does that have to do with sex?
44:50 Karen Kilgariff? Well, so I think this might be shedding a light on some fucked up shit that happened to her beforehand, somewhere in the past. I, I, if there's a book about her, I will read it.
45:03 Georgia Hardstark? It's got choked.
45:04 Karen Kilgariff? She, some shit happened. Um, so she would do that to these patients and then get she, cause she cut, you know, like wanted to see like how it affected them, but also would get into bed with them and hold them. Um, as it was happening, she told police after her arrest that she got a sexual thrill from being near patients, uh, when they were being next to patients when they were near death, coming back to life and then dying. And so she, this is by her own admission that this got her off.
45:38 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
45:39 Karen Kilgariff? Which is, you know, everybody's into something.
45:43 Georgia Hardstark? Aren't they though?
45:44 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, so she would get, she would administer the drug and then she'd get into bed with them and hold them close to her as they die.
45:53 Georgia Hardstark? What?
45:54 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, uh, and then this article says that this is rare for female serial killers. They usually kill for material reasons.
46:03 Georgia Hardstark? Sexist.
46:07 Georgia Hardstark? Bullshit.
46:07 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, or that the on average, it's not sexual satisfaction. That's, that's men's domain.
46:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
46:14 Karen Kilgariff? Um, which, you know, and so in a way I'm proud of Jane because she
46:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
46:18 Karen Kilgariff? Broke that glass ceiling.
46:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
46:20 Karen Kilgariff? And did, and she got hers. Um, sorry, that's wrong. Uh, so she didn't get caught, I guess, because she was recommended for, um, Massachusetts General Hospital in 1889, which this article says is prestigious. And, um, there she killed a couple more people.
46:40 Georgia Hardstark? Um, and then she was actually killing people like, like, cause it sounds like she was bringing them back, but certain people she wasn't bringing back.
46:46 Karen Kilgariff? She did, she would bring them back a couple of times, but ultimately let them die. And that's when, that's what got her off.
46:51 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, okay.
46:52 Karen Kilgariff? So it was like, she would play with it and that would be like, you know, um,
46:56 Georgia Hardstark? Crazy.
46:57 Karen Kilgariff? But I guess didn't get caught and kind of was able to cover it up. I read a thing about how she kind of messed with the charts. So everything was, you know, it was back then, it was just like, yeah, people die, whatever. And I think no one would, no one would suspect a woman. No one would suspect a nurse.
47:12 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
47:13 Karen Kilgariff? You know, um, so she goes to Mass General and then kills more people and then gets fired. So probably like someone was sharp and on it and a little bit like, eh, too many people have died under your watch. Um, so then she went back to Cambridge, but, uh, she got dismissed for prescribing opiates recklessly, which is like, how is a nurse prescribing anything? But I guess that's how they did it back then.
47:38 Georgia Hardstark? She sounds fun.
47:40 Karen Kilgariff? She sounds like she parties and she forces other people to party.
47:43 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
47:44 Karen Kilgariff? To their death.
47:44 Georgia Hardstark? To death.
47:46 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, just like a fraternity. Um, so then she, of course, what's her natural next step? If she gets fired as a nurse at a hospital?
47:56 Georgia Hardstark? Private nurse?
47:57 Karen Kilgariff? Private nursing is exactly right, Georgia. That's right, girl.
48:01 Georgia Hardstark? Killer right here.
48:02 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. Uh, so.
48:05 Karen Kilgariff? Um, she flourished as a private nurse despite complaints of petty theft. So Jane couldn't handle her shit. She had her hands everywhere.
48:16 Georgia Hardstark? But she's a good nurse.
48:17 Karen Kilgariff? But you know what? She gives me a bath real good.
48:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
48:21 Karen Kilgariff? So then as a private nurse, that's when she really starts her poisoning spree.
48:25 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
48:26 Karen Kilgariff? Um, in 1895, she killed her landlords, which is a great.
48:31 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, fair.
48:32 Karen Kilgariff? Solution. We've all been there. In 1899, she killed her foster sister Elizabeth with strychnine, which is, I think, a very painful way to go.
48:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
48:42 Karen Kilgariff? It's no morphine atrophine ride.
48:45 Georgia Hardstark? It's no 90 night.
48:46 Karen Kilgariff? It's it's no 90 night. Good morning.
48:51 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, in 1901, she moved in with a fan of the Davis family. Because the elderly patriarch was Alden Davis. And his wife had died, and so she was there to take care of him in his old age. Well, it turns out she killed his wife. Uh, that's why she got the job.
49:15 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
49:16 Karen Kilgariff? Uh huh.
49:18 Karen Kilgariff? So within weeks, uh, she had killed the the patriarch of the family, Alden Davis, and two of his daughters. Within weeks.
49:28 Georgia Hardstark? Honey, you're being so obvious.
49:30 Karen Kilgariff? Honey, pace yourself.
49:32 Georgia Hardstark? Dude, pace yourself.
49:33 Karen Kilgariff? This is, this is a marathon, not a sprint.
49:35 Georgia Hardstark? Like one per family is what you get.
49:36 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, you do know people catch on to like mass murdering an entire family.
49:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
49:44 Karen Kilgariff? So after that happened, she moved back to her hometown and began hoarding her late foster sister Elizabeth's husband. So she's like took.
49:53 Georgia Hardstark? I thought you said hoarding.
49:55 Karen Kilgariff? She was hoarding into herself.
49:57 Georgia Hardstark? And it was all over the house.
50:02 Karen Kilgariff? So.
50:03 Georgia Hardstark? That's shitty.
50:04 Karen Kilgariff? She then kills his sister.
50:07 Karen Kilgariff? And then poisons him so she could earn his love by nursing him back to health.
50:14 Georgia Hardstark? For fuck's sake.
50:15 Karen Kilgariff? And then she, when that didn't work, she poisoned herself out of, to try to garner his sympathy.
50:24 Georgia Hardstark? Actually, that's kind of smart.
50:26 Karen Kilgariff? But it didn't work.
50:27 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
50:28 Karen Kilgariff? And so he cast her out of the house, which is something people did in the late 1800s. She was cast out.
50:34 Georgia Hardstark? Even though she was sick?
50:36 Karen Kilgariff? Well, she got over it.
50:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
50:37 Karen Kilgariff? Cause she probably gave herself the tiniest little bit of strychnine.
50:41 Georgia Hardstark? Snicky snack of strychnine.
50:45 Karen Kilgariff? Just put a little bit on top of her biscuit. So the rest of the Davises, who hadn't been terribly murdered in that house, ordered a toxicology exam on the youngest daughter that she, that had died. And they found that she had been poisoned. And so they put a police detail on good old Jane Toppan. And on October 26, 1901, she was arrested for murder. And by 1902, she confessed to 31 murders.
51:15 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
51:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, girl. And she's quoted, this is one of the reasons that I picked this story. And it just, it made me laugh. It kind of makes me like her. There's something about this that I'm, that I'm being a little ridiculous.
51:31 Georgia Hardstark? Because this, the victim's family, it's like three generations later. So it's like.
51:36 Karen Kilgariff? Right. We, there's no guilt.
51:38 Georgia Hardstark? No.
51:39 Karen Kilgariff? Angry letter from a Davis.
51:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
51:42 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you? So she was quoted, she told the cops that her ambition was to quote, "to have killed more people, helpless people, than any other man or woman who ever lived."
51:56 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
51:57 Karen Kilgariff? It's what she wanted and she tried her best.
52:00 Georgia Hardstark? What, did she know, like, did she have a reason why? Like, was she, did she think she was helping hopeless people?
52:06 Karen Kilgariff? I don't, I think there are some angel of death nurse types that do think they're helping. Or like the doctor that I did.
52:13 Georgia Hardstark? Peter Robert, Peter Pinkerton.
52:15 Karen Kilgariff? Pinker.
52:18 Karen Kilgariff? Pink Woodward?
52:20 Georgia Hardstark? Richard.
52:20 Karen Kilgariff? Richard Wards. Pink Richard Ward.
52:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
52:23 Karen Kilgariff? Um, that guy I think was trying to convince himself. It was like if they're a little bit older, take him out before they suffer.
52:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but he was getting like early seventy year olds.
52:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, no, he, I mean, I guess I was saying he was probably rationalizing it to himself a little bit. But that couldn't have been the real reason. But um, this one, no, she, I think she just got, literally got off on.
52:47 Georgia Hardstark? Helpless people.
52:48 Karen Kilgariff? And killing people and, and taking advantage of helpless people, which is the creepiest.
52:53 Georgia Hardstark? Damn dude, I bet like, there's gotta be something like by the time you're six and you've lived in this fucking depraved, fucked up household world and then you move to a fucking school for girls in Boston. So it's, you know, probably real fucked up.
53:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
53:07 Georgia Hardstark? You just don't have any empathy anymore.
53:09 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, hit yourself in the head with a swing at that point because you're done, Dee.
53:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
53:14 Karen Kilgariff? Um, her sister, her older sister stayed in the, in that orphanage, like a couple of years longer than her. And then basically eventually became a prostitute and died of alcoholism in the gutter. So.
53:27 Georgia Hardstark? So she got the better of the two lives.
53:29 Karen Kilgariff? She really, she went out and she made a life for herself. But I feel like, yeah, those, those, the Kelly family of the, of the Taylor, the famous crazy Taylor, uh, Kelly, they didn't have much of a chance. There was dark, Angela's ashes style darkness.
53:47 Georgia Hardstark? Don't date anyone ever. Like that's, don't invite anyone into your home.
53:52 Karen Kilgariff? Easy for you to say you're married.
53:53 Georgia Hardstark? He could be a fucking serial killer for all I know. What if he was? He's not. He's totally not.
53:59 Karen Kilgariff? He's not. And if he is, what a great episode.
54:02 Georgia Hardstark? I've had a great run.
54:04 Karen Kilgariff? You've had a great life.
54:05 Georgia Hardstark? He gave me everything.
54:06 Karen Kilgariff? Great night gowns. Up until the point that he murdered you, he has been so good to you.
54:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. If he murders me without me knowing that it's him that murdered me, then I'm, I die happy.
54:16 Karen Kilgariff? Oh my God, you'll just go out in your sleep?
54:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
54:18 Karen Kilgariff? Like an axe in the back of your head?
54:19 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
54:20 Karen Kilgariff? Listen, um, on June twenty third, nineteen oh two, no, no, no, this is the end of it.
54:25 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
54:25 Karen Kilgariff? Um.
54:28 Karen Kilgariff? She was found not guilty by reason of insanity.
54:32 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa.
54:34 Karen Kilgariff? At the Barnstable County Courthouse, but she was committed for life in Taunton Insane Hospital. And then she died August 17th, 1938.
54:43 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa.
54:44 Karen Kilgariff? So she lived in the mental hospital for quite some time.
54:48 Georgia Hardstark? What would you give to go fucking have a chit chat with her?
54:50 Karen Kilgariff? Just be like, listen, Jane, hi, I know that's not your real name, Jane.
54:54 Georgia Hardstark? She's like, hey, you want a sneaky snack?
54:56 Karen Kilgariff? No, thanks. No, I brought my home in the Ziploc bag. Just want to know what happened. Did your dad so as I shot? With leather shoelaces. I'm adding that part because it's so disgusting.
55:09 Georgia Hardstark? He was a tailor, so I bet there were clean stitches.
55:11 Karen Kilgariff? I bet, I bet he did it real quick and it was only like 12 bucks.
55:17 Georgia Hardstark? Which is 24 bucks in our, in today's standards.
55:20 Karen Kilgariff? In the post.
55:21 Georgia Hardstark? That's crazy. What was her name?
55:23 Karen Kilgariff? Her name's Jane Toppan.
55:25 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck dude.
55:25 Karen Kilgariff? And I'm sure there's much more.
55:29 Karen Kilgariff? There's much more to know about her. I really do want to read like a full on book. I'm sorry, I can't give you every, all of the.
55:36 Georgia Hardstark? No, that's a good sum.
55:36 Karen Kilgariff? I feel like there's lots more information to be had. I just don't have it.
55:39 Georgia Hardstark? How pissed are the Toppins that she moved in with? They're like, we gotta change our fucking name now because this is our legacy.
55:44 Karen Kilgariff? Well, also, yeah, you know what? Too bad then. Maybe don't hire eight year old indentured servants, you dick.
55:51 Georgia Hardstark? Actually, yeah, you're right.
55:52 Karen Kilgariff? You get, you deserve all of it and more.
55:54 Georgia Hardstark? You deserve your bad.
55:54 Karen Kilgariff? Also, what if something happened to her in that, like, that's where it kicked off? Like, she was like, everything's terrible, everything's terrible. Okay, now I'm in this orphanage. Okay, well, at least I have this job as an eight year old. And then things really kick off at the Toppins house.
56:08 Georgia Hardstark? It's like Rape City.
56:10 Karen Kilgariff? Or, yeah, or like dark, I mean, what? Who hires an eight year old indentured servant? You creep, you old rich creeps.
56:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. God damn it.
56:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
56:23 Georgia Hardstark? Everything is fucked.
56:28 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know. I see the, I don't know.
56:30 Georgia Hardstark? You see the positive?
56:31 Karen Kilgariff? I see the light at the end of the tunnel.
56:32 Georgia Hardstark? I guess she probably lived longer than anyone else did.
56:35 Karen Kilgariff? I also think of like, what if you're laying in the hospital and you're like, you feel terrible. And then you're like, oh yeah, morphine drip. Yeah. And then you're like, whoa, now I'm on speed.
56:44 Georgia Hardstark? And you're like, this hot nurse, let's pretend she's hot. This hot nurse is laying next to me. Fuck yeah.
56:48 Karen Kilgariff? She actually isn't bad looking. There's a really great picture of her on Wikipedia. And she's actually attractive looking, but there is, she got the kind of like, she got the eyes where you're like, oh, you don't want to be in the bathroom with her at the same time. She's one of those people that, you know, she'd immediately start talking to you real close.
57:04 Georgia Hardstark? Crazy eyes.
57:05 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
57:06 Georgia Hardstark? Can I borrow your mascara?
57:07 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, you can't. Back it, three steps back, Jane.
57:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, we're not.
57:12 Karen Kilgariff? We're not doing this.
57:13 Georgia Hardstark? We're not best friends immediately.
57:14 Karen Kilgariff? No. And that's not sanitary.
57:17 Georgia Hardstark? That's crazy. That's a good one.
57:21 Georgia Hardstark? I like, I like, uh, old ones.
57:23 Karen Kilgariff? I do too. Sometimes it's a nice break.
57:25 Georgia Hardstark? We should do a couple. We should throw them in there because it's been real depressing lately.
57:28 Karen Kilgariff? I know. Let's do, you know what? Do you want to do next week, a theme of like, really, really old ones? Like weirdly from the 1500s or something?
57:38 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, like oldie times?
57:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Like weird old, like, did you ever see In the Name of the Rose with Sean Connery?
57:44 Georgia Hardstark? No.
57:45 Karen Kilgariff? It's a real good movie about, it's Sean Connery and Christian Slater, actually.
57:49 Georgia Hardstark? What? Those two people don't belong together?
57:50 Karen Kilgariff? I know. It works.
57:52 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
57:52 Karen Kilgariff? They're monks and they, they go to this creepy, I mean, I don't even know. It could be a much earlier year. I don't know anything. It's like the dark ages. And they go to this monastery or where priests are. Is it a monastery? That's, that's nuns. They go to where priests live because they're, these priests keep dying in weird ways. And they have to investigate Sean Connery. I think it's during the Spanish Inquisition. Whenever that was.
58:20 Georgia Hardstark? I love all that shit.
58:21 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, me too. And you, like, the first time I saw it, I was in high school, but I was like, this is fucking fascinating. Cause it was like, it was back when like murder was a little bit normal.
58:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And you didn't live very long. So it wasn't like, you took a ton out of their lives.
58:37 Karen Kilgariff? Right. But there've always been serial killers.
58:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Let's do, let's do, let's say the 1500s and then do anything around there. Like between 13 and 17.
58:49 Karen Kilgariff? Let's say the 1500s, then get within a 700 year mark of that.
58:57 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, we're back. Karen, any case updates on this very old case?
59:02 Karen Kilgariff? Um, Jane Toppan died in 1938.
59:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
59:05 Karen Kilgariff? That's a, that's one. It is funny to think about that it is an interest of like historical true crime and like, oh, this is something that human beings have been doing to each other since the dawn of man. And we can be talking about this in a way that feels a little less risky or, you know, a little less like we're going to mishandle something.
59:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
59:28 Karen Kilgariff? Which is cool, but then also it's like, it's very strange where we've done, is it Harold Shipman? I mean, like,
59:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
59:36 Karen Kilgariff? It's like, there's these repeat stories of certain types of serial killers or mass murderers where you think of it only as starting now or starting in the 80s or something. And it's like, oh no, Jane was, Jane, they think she might have killed 100 people, I think it is?
59:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
59:54 Karen Kilgariff? Wild.
59:55 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, this is like exactly why Buried Bones is such a good show too, I think, or such a popular show is because people want to hear about these, you know, that things were just as fucking bad.
1:00:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:00:06 Georgia Hardstark? In the past.
1:00:06 Karen Kilgariff? Well, and if you haven't listened to Buried Bones, you absolutely should. Um, not just because we're fans of Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes,
1:00:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:15 Karen Kilgariff? But the idea of people taking modern day, like forensic science and, and then Kate's historical, like, research brain and applying them to these old cases that up until this point have just kind of been sitting there, we are imagining that they're just sitting there.
1:00:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:32 Karen Kilgariff? It's like, wait, you could move forward on this. This could be solved or it could be, we could get to a, an actual answer.
1:00:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, analyzing it with like, you know, today's science.
1:00:42 Karen Kilgariff? Pretty cool.
1:00:43 Georgia Hardstark? Fascinating.
1:00:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:00:45 Georgia Hardstark? All right, well, um, is that it?
1:00:48 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I think it's, uh, this episode was originally titled because seven, eight, nine, but we have some options of what it actually could be named.
1:00:58 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so, sleep helping podcast, which I think it kind of is. I hear from a lot of people that I meet who listen that they fall asleep listening to it, or at least try to.
1:01:08 Karen Kilgariff? It's very romantic.
1:01:09 Georgia Hardstark? I'm very honored.
1:01:10 Karen Kilgariff? I'm always wearing a tomato red house dress as I podcast. Um, sleep helping. Now, I need a sleep helping podcast. There's also the title, Girl, It's Working, which is me saying to you that you're trying to seduce me by wearing that red house dress. And I'm letting you know, yes, girl, I see, I see you.
1:01:28 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, this isn't sexy, by the way. This is a grandma. That's my, like, house dresses are like your grandma's caftan muumuu. And then this is that, but like my knees are maybe showing. So there's nothing seductive about it.
1:01:40 Karen Kilgariff? It didn't really seem to be at the time. I think that's, that's the brilliance of our comedy. There's a lot of oppositsey comedy.
1:01:46 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I love it. All right. Well, thank you guys for listening to another episode of Rewind. We appreciate it so much.
1:01:53 Karen Kilgariff? Stay sexy.
1:01:55 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
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1:02:29 Georgia Hardstark? You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
1:02:31 Karen Kilgariff? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray.
1:02:34 Georgia Hardstark? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.
1:02:39 Karen Kilgariff? If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray part of your nighttime routine.
1:02:44 Georgia Hardstark? Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.
1:02:51 Karen Kilgariff? Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.
1:02:55 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray online or in your local bath aisle.
1:03:00 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
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