Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 20: 20/20

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 20: 20/20, when Karen discussed the Night Stalker and his subsequent capture and Georgia covered New Zealand’s infamous Bain Family Murders. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and much more!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:34Speaker 02

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• 1:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. And welcome.

• 1:30Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

• 1:33Karen Kilgariff?

  This is our newest Wednesday episode where we go back and listen to the beginning of the show, and we chat about everything that we said then, and how it's different now, and what we're doing, and why. All of it.

• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It makes us sweaty, but we're doing it for you guys.

• 1:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not pleasant.

• 1:52Georgia Hardstark?

  It's... I kind of love it. I don't hate it. I love it. It's hard. It's important. I'm glad we're doing it.

• 2:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, you know what it is? It's like if somebody recorded you, if you chose to record yourself on a phone, a long phone call where you said a lot of stuff that you really felt and meant.

• 2:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And then someone released that on the internet and people were like, actually, you were wrong to think this or feel this. That's an approximation of what it's like to look back.

• 2:19Georgia Hardstark?

  The older I get, the more I realize that young people's thoughts and emotions and feelings are so much stronger and more like adamant than they are when you're older. And usually they're wrong too.

• 2:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's what we're doing. Um, today.

• 2:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're not that young.

• 2:33Georgia Hardstark?

  No. I mean, we were. I was 36. Yeah. I think I just turned 36 in this fucking episode. Oh my God. Today we're revisiting episode 20 from Thursday, June 9th, the day after my birthday, 2016. We called it 2020.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  2020. That's easy.

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Classic.

• 2:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That was an easy one. So now it's time to get in the spirit of giving, grab a friend, listen along. It's time to all become day one listeners.

• 3:00Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Let's listen to the intro of episode 20.

• 3:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Test, test, test, test.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Podcast, podcast.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Podcast, podcast.

• 3:11Georgia Hardstark?

  310's fast.

• 3:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Podcast, podcast, podcast.

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 3:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, this is my favorite murder.

• 3:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That scared the shit out of me.

• 3:21Karen Kilgariff?

  What did? Me talk?

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, this is.

• 3:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi.

• 3:24Georgia Hardstark?

  This is my favorite murder.

• 3:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring Georgia.

• 3:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's start.

• 3:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen Kilgariff, AKA Kill Hard.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Kill Hard. One of the lamest things we've done so far. Give ourselves a nickname.

• 3:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you see someone in the Facebook group made a, um, a photo of the Die Hard poster and put your face on one guy and my face on another guy?

• 3:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I just put Kill Hard.

• 3:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I did see that. It's turning into like a, um, ego, navel gazing, kind of like, did you see the picture where we, the thing we talked about about ourselves got made into a thing about ourselves?

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, but people like it.

• 4:02Karen Kilgariff?

  They like to play along with us.

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  We wouldn't talk about it if they weren't doing it.

• 4:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fun times and there's, and it's just, there's just thousands of them. It's the best.

• 4:13Georgia Hardstark?

  We're fueled by their. Is it projected narcissism onto us?

• 4:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's our narcissism.

• 4:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Let's talk about how last week, we talked about judges.

• 4:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And their misogyn- built-in misogyny and sexism.

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 4:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That, that, I think at one point I actually said, "It's not happening as much these days."

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And I think we conjured, speaking of narcissism, I think we conjured.

• 4:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we're the center of the universe.

• 4:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I think we're the center of the universe about this new fucking huge controversial thing about this dicklick Brock Turner, who, like, cool, he got, he, he got convicted of three counts of sexual, aggravated sexual assault. I'm not even gonna say like, clearly he was guilty, he got, he was-

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He is guilty.

• 4:59Georgia Hardstark?

  He is guilty.

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He was unanimously, uh, voted guilty by a jury of his peers.

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And yet.

• 5:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And yet, the old judge said, "Hey, let's not fuck up his great swimming career."

• 5:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and said, "Six months in county."

• 5:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And then his dad had the nerve to say like, "Well, it was 20 minutes of his life. Is he gonna get..."

• 5:19Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what his dad said? So, well, the brilliant thing, and everyone's seen this, like, we're basically recapping what's been happening on social media, but the victim of this stood up in court-

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Ugh.

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And read this letter to him, that is, one of, not, not just moving and amazing as a first-person account, the clarity in it.

• 5:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And the, "I'll let you know what this, what's actually happening, and not, we're not just gonna hear from these lawyers, I'll fucking tell you myself."

• 5:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's not just like, "How much you hurt me," it's like, "Here are the repercussions of your actions and decisions."

• 5:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether or not you admit to them, we all know you did, because there's the proof. You can pretend you didn't do it like a fucking psycho all you want.

• 5:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a, it's foregone conclusion.

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretending he didn't do it, he's saying that it wasn't what people thought it was.

• 6:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 6:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And he probably believes that.

• 6:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, he needs to believe it, because when the wall, when the wall finally comes down, that he's like, "I'm a rapist."

• 6:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, then what happens then?

• 6:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'm sure everything in his life has been built around, "You get whatever you want, little baby Brock."

• 6:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then I, you know, some of his friends, there's a band called, what's it called? Good English?

• 6:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh, let's not even talk about it.

• 6:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, the thing is, like, I, I just don't see a time in my life where I would defend a friend of mine, and I'm thinking of multiple friends who are good people, would say, "No, he..."

• 6:36Georgia Hardstark?

  It wasn't rape.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 6:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I wouldn't ever say that. I would say-

• 6:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially as a woman.

• 6:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And that girl is, well, the girl in the band is a woman.

• 6:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I would say, I'm really surprised, we would have never thought that this guy was capable of that. But I would never say that it's not true and it's-

• 6:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's full of shit.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially after a jury unanimously voted him guilty of rape.

• 6:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You can see the evidence. So we were just gonna look it up to talk about it and I found this, this article in The Cut that the judge, this piece of shit judge, Erin Persky, Persky? Persky, um, who's like thankfully getting a lot of shit and will probably be disbarred. There's an article published, Tracy Kaplan writes that this isn't the first controversial sexual assault case the judge has presided over. So here's the fucking story. "In 2007, a 17-year-old girl alleged that she was gang raped by at least nine members of the DeAnza College Basketball Team at a house party while she was severely intoxicated. Three soccer players discovered the rape in progress, broke it up, thank fucking god for

• 7:39Georgia Hardstark?

  some people. And they, they said they discovered her unconscious and covered in vomit and called, and called it clearly non-consensual."

• 7:49Georgia Hardstark?

  District Attorney Dolores Carr ultimately decided not to move forward with the case, which was met with criticism. Um, the, in 2011, the case was brought to civil trial and the victim sued for 7.5 million in damages. The judge, Persky, presided. He ruled before lunch that no can show the jury seven photos of the women whom the court is calling Jane Doe, partying about a year or so after the alleged gang rape. This shows she was partying afterwards and they could show photos. And the photo, she is scantily clad. She's scantily clad.

• 8:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry, so what?

• 8:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So what?

• 8:27Georgia Hardstark?

  They said that the, the photos are a direct contradiction, quote, of the plaintiff's claims that she is socially isolated and socially reticent.

• 8:36Karen Kilgariff?

  But-

• 8:37Georgia Hardstark?

  But that doesn't, and especially, not especially, but photos post, post rape?

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 8:45Georgia Hardstark?

  She's fucking, it doesn't matter what she does.

• 8:48Karen Kilgariff?

  She could be, she could be spiraling out of control, she could be doing anything, who the fuck knows?

• 8:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Or she could be a slut, it doesn't fucking matter.

• 8:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't matter. And, and here, here's the other thing, what, because we were talking about this at work today. Uh, the bottom line is this, you know in your gut, you know what feels right and you know what feels wrong. And if you are so narcissistic and selfish that you're gonna take what you want no matter, either, either you don't have any feeling toward how you affect other people, or you don't care.

• 9:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you, but ultimately, that's your truth that you have to live in and sit in.

• 9:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you say have to be on drugs or drunk so that you have to ignore this, whatever. But at the, at the end of the day, you cannot parse out and argue things like this when, when what we're talking about is basic human decency.

• 9:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And I know that for a lot of people, I think there's a lot of gray area with rape that people get, that people have a hard time dealing with, but the, so even if this chick had ever fucked any of these nine girl, nine guys, it's, they still, it's still rape if she's intoxicated and can't give consent. Like, it's such a, it's, it's to that extreme, that even if she fucked these guys.

• 9:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, yeah, because she, if she had fucked them, that would have been her choice.

• 9:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 9:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what the, in that letter, one of my favorite parts of the, of Brock Turner's victim, she said, "How can I be promiscuous if I did not choose to do it?

• 10:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:08Karen Kilgariff?

  If I wasn't even awake, how is that promiscuous?

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, I'm unconscious.

• 10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the part, that's the part that people want to argue. They want, they want to deflect away from the truth of the actual action, which is you took a person who was not there and fucked their body.

• 10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's disgusting. You have a problem. That girl doesn't have a problem, except for the fact that you decided to do that to her.

• 10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's just so, like, I think about- People I've dated and been with and that none of them would want to fuck an unconscious body.

• 10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that means there's something wrong with you.

• 10:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That's predatory.

• 10:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so sympathetic and bizarre.

• 10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And I don't care how drunk you, I get drunk and I, I do stupid things, but they're not out of character. You know what I mean?

• 10:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, no, a lot, a lot of people do. There's a whole aspect to this that I think they can't talk about, which is the way she tells that story. She is blackout. She, she goes from dancing and feeling kind of drunk to being, to waking up behind a dumpster. I think there's a roofie element that they can't talk about.

• 11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a theory that I have.

• 11:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That maybe the, the, the defendant kind of got that thrown out or something?

• 11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that they couldn't prove it or it had already gone through her body so that they can't include it. That would be prejudicial.

• 11:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 11:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So they can't, and she's probably not even going to go there because it's like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because even if I drank 11 beers in a row, that doesn't mean I want you to rape me.

• 11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't be a fucking lunatic.

• 11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's not, and also, if the woman is saying that, that is her truth, it's not up to you. It's not your final choice.

• 11:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Random guy.

• 11:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 11:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Or rapist guy.

• 11:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Or to defend that that's not her truth anymore. You can't, you don't do that.

• 11:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Just fuck off. Not you, Georgia, not you. It makes me so mad. Because it's just so, it's, it's, when people try to parse out things like this of like, is she's half responsible if she was drunk?

• 12:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 12:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck you.

• 12:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:05Karen Kilgariff?

  These are, I mean, there was a girl that did an amazing tweet today that said, these people who are trying to blame this victim's rape on her drunkenness are the same ones that threw temper tantrums when U2's album was downloaded without their consent on their computer. It's the same, it's that thing of like, how dare you, if this happened to you, you would never be saying it.

• 12:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I saw a meme that said, well, she was drunk. What did you expect? What did she expect? And the answer was, a fucking hangover.

• 12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You didn't expect to get raped. You expected a hangover.

• 12:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. The idea that that should be part of the equation and too bad for you

• 12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:42Karen Kilgariff?

  is insanity. That's why we talk about

• 12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And the people who

• 12:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Like that fucking judge was a lacrosse player.

• 12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 12:51Karen Kilgariff?

  He was a lacrosse player at Stanford.

• 12:53Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you gonna do with swimming? How on earth do you think Why, what about this girl?

• 12:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's just like, that's boys' club bullshit. That's what that is.

• 13:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Swimming, it's gonna ruin

• 13:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like saying someone's life is more important than another.

• 13:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 13:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, this goes back to everything we talk about. So it's just, it's another frustration. But here's what I will say. I really do love, if you get down into the, if you read a comments section, you're always gonna be disappointed in humanity. But Ashley Bamfield, I think her name is, the CNN anchor, she had a whole show. Did you see that?

• 13:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, no.

• 13:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She read the letter

• 13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 13:26Karen Kilgariff?

  on her show. It took 40 minutes. And people were tweeting about it the whole time. And it was all these people that were like journalists, it's all these, you know, those blue dot people on Twitter

• 13:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:36Karen Kilgariff?

  that were like, this is incredible, this is unbelievable television journalism. There were people that worked on the show that were saying, it is uncomfortably silent in this studio right now. Everyone was just like, because that letter, that's the other thing I was gonna say, not only is it, is it an amazing, clear, well spoken, like, here's actually my side, if you want to hear it. It's brilliantly written.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's incredibly written, and I love the fact that she was like, there needs, it's not just something you read and you need to see the emotional, the person reading it, the face. And even if it's not the real one of what happened, you know, hearing the inflections and hearing a woman read that, I think is really important, too.

• 14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure. Yeah. So I think that, at the end of the day, when everything kind of like, the dust settles, it's gonna be an incredibly important piece of action that a woman took for herself.

• 14:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I agree.

• 14:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That is, that's precedent setting. It's amazing.

• 14:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I mean, we were also talking last week about victim statement, victim impact statements, including the family, you know, finally being able to read their impact statement to the murder of their child, and how, and forgiving them, and how insane that must feel. Did you see that someone's dad jumped across The table and it ta- and during his victim's statement to the serial killer and fucking attacked him and had to be like restrained and

• 15:00Karen Kilgariff?

  At Grim Sleeper?

• 15:01Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Some other dude?

• 15:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't surprise me.

• 15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, good for him. I hope the cops like waited a beat before they grabbed him. Is that terrible?

• 15:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, how do you control, you know?

• 15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 15:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, is, yeah. Yep.

• 15:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I love the about.

• 15:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Heavy.

• 15:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Heavy, this

• 15:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Duty.

• 15:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Heavy duty.

• 15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but still, I don't know. I like it. I like it.

• 15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys, be, be witnesses.

• 15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, and also, you know what? Watch your fucking drink. If you're gonna drink, you have to have one friend who's a little bit smarter and more down to earth than you, for sure. I'm speaking as a 20-year-old Karen Kilgariff who would never paid attention to anything. But also, keep your hand over your drink. Drink out of bottles. Don't make it easy for people. I mean, like, it's never your fault. It's never, but at the same time, just be, please be careful. It's a lot.

• 16:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucking ton.

• 16:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a lot.

• 16:02Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a heavy one.

• 16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  This is, and also, we're telling people what to do who are probably all our age. They're like, at home, looking at their baby, like, you guys, move it along. We got this part covered.

• 16:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Move it along to the murder part. That's what they're hoping for.

• 16:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. We hear you.

• 16:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We get it.

• 16:23Karen Kilgariff?

  We're back. I do think it's interesting with, I wish I could go back and tell Karen and Georgia in 2016 that Chanel Miller really wins this fight, in my opinion.

• 16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Writes a beautiful book, gets to speak for herself, really galvanizes a lot of young women who know how she feels and have been through what she's been through, or similar, or can relate in some way. Just, I think that, separate from the rest of the nastiness, is like, that's a Person who really took that situation and like made it her own.

• 17:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah. I think it really motivated people to think in a different way and maybe awaken people's understanding of, you know, what happens in these cases and, you know, opened some people up to an empathy they didn't have or an understanding they didn't have before.

• 17:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Like the, just knowing that, that a judge would be that concerned

• 17:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Karen Kilgariff?

  For the perpetrator of this horrible rape.

• 17:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 17:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It just like, and that that judge had a history of doing that, that that was, and these kinds of things where it's like, you have to talk about it and you have to make noise about it so that it can change.

• 17:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And now, of course, in 2024, it's like, it seems preposterous and horrifying and, you know, people are so good at being kind of like telling these stories and trying to make change.

• 18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I think they changed the course of a lot of people's lives and a lot of the way people think.

• 18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And understand sexual assault and rape. And that is just an incredible feat.

• 18:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:13Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Well, uh, let's get into Karen's story where she tells us just a classic horrible one. The one and only Night Stalker.

• 18:26Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 18:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 18:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 18:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 19:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, Write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 19:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Simply safe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 19:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Nothing makes you take a good, hard look at your furniture like inviting people over for the holidays.

• 19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So give your home a little holiday upgrade with Article.

• 19:41Karen Kilgariff?

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• 19:46Georgia Hardstark?

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• 19:55Karen Kilgariff?

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• 20:04Georgia Hardstark?

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• 20:34Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 20:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 20:44Karen Kilgariff?

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• 21:27Karen Kilgariff?

  ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.

• 21:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you first or am I first?

• 21:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I'm first this week.

• 21:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Alright, so Karen?

• 21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, today, hi Georgia. It's the part for the murder, skippers.

• 21:45Karen Kilgariff?

  This today is June 6th.

• 21:48Georgia Hardstark?

  7th.

• 21:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Today is June 7th, I said.

• 21:50Georgia Hardstark?

  My birthday's tomorrow.

• 21:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, girl. It's Georgia's birthday tomorrow, everybody. Tell her happy birthday on Facebook.

• 21:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. You know, I started cross stitching you as a belated birthday present because I fuck you was your birthday while we're recording and I didn't even know.

• 22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It was my secret.

• 22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You're such a dick. I started stitching you, cross stitching you, Stay Sexy, Don't Get Murdered. But I realized halfway through, I got Stay Sexy, and I realized I'm a terrible cross stitcher.

• 22:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Now I want it even more.

• 22:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I look like shit and I showed it to Vince and I'm like, does this look terrible? Because you know, you can be really self critical. And he's like, I just think you need a little more practice. Like he very sweetly said, that looks terrible.

• 22:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I want it so bad.

• 22:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll show it to you. It looks insane.

• 22:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Put it on a pillow.

• 22:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I stitched it while I watched a murder show.

• 22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Now I have to have it. It's like a child's Christmas art project.

• 22:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's literally like a child's art project.

• 22:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Love it. So because it's June 7th.

• 22:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a special holiday. Three years ago on this day, the Night Stalker, Richard Ramirez died in prison.

• 22:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit. Was it only three years ago?

• 22:57Karen Kilgariff?

  2013.

• 22:58Georgia Hardstark?

  God, it seems like, yeah.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  June 7th, 2013, which is three years ago, right?

• 23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, yeah.

• 23:03Karen Kilgariff?

  The math is right. He died, his liver basically shut down. He had a couple bad things going on. He had like blood cancer and something else. But before he died, he turned bright green. They said like a highlighter pen.

• 23:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Like he looked crazy.

• 23:19Georgia Hardstark?

  What is that, your liver just can't function?

• 23:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's your liver. Because he was a crazy drug addict. He was like, he was bad, bad drugs. So yeah, he was basically just shut, kind of shutting down. So I saw that in, there was an article about that in the news somewhere. So I was like, you know what? That's the one my friend Adrienne, when we very first started this, I told the story about it and she was like, gotta be Night Stalker. So I was like, it's finally time to tell the story of Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker.

• 23:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Give it to me.

• 23:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Not to be confused with the original Night Stalker, Aaron's the East Area Rapist slash the Golden State Killer.

• 23:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Who could still be out there. This is Richard Ramirez, who in the, basically in the summer, or I guess like early spring of 1985, started a insanity berserker killing and molesting and raping spree that started in Southern California, went up to the San Francisco area, came on back down, and then ends in my, it's my favorite ending to one of these stories. It's the best. And I remember seeing it on the news when they caught him. It was, the people of Boyle Heights rose up, girl.

• 24:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 24:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So I'll, I'll just try to do this encapsulate. So he was born in 1960 in El Paso, Texas, the youngest of seven children in the, basically the barrio is what, I don't, is that a politically correct way to say it?

• 24:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I would, if, if, yes.

• 24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a bad part of town in El Paso.

• 24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  His parents were, his, his father was a railway worker, but he was illegal. So he probably didn't make great money. And so, he also, early on, got hit in the head with a swing.

• 25:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Man.

• 25:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And got knocked out for a while. I think they said like an hour.

• 25:19Georgia Hardstark?

  If your kid gets hit in the head, send them back.

• 25:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And then there was an, a thing I was looking at that was like, Ted Bundy, the Green River Killer, Richard Ramirez, John Wayne Gacy, Fred West, who's that British lunatic who raped all those girls, killed his own children. All had head injuries as children.

• 25:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 25:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So, you know, keep your eye out. You know who else did? Karen Kilgariff.

• 25:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up. What happened?

• 25:48Karen Kilgariff?

  My mom tripped over my high chair when I was like six months old. I had stitches in the front of my head.

• 25:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Smash.

• 25:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And then later on, I don't think this is, this is my own private pain, but during swimming lessons, I tried to do a front forward somersault, jump off the side of the pool and just smacked my head.

• 26:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 26:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And I just, nobody saw it. And so I just held the side of the pool and kind of like, quietly cried to myself until I felt better and then kept on swimming. Because swimming above all, right? When you're a kid.

• 26:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. You probably had a concussion.

• 26:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I probably did.

• 26:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 26:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I probably did.

• 26:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember how we couldn't remember our concussions one episode?

• 26:31Georgia Hardstark?

  There was one of them.

• 26:32Karen Kilgariff?

  There it is.

• 26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so here's the bad part. Ricky being the youngest was kind of like, he was basically a juvenile delinquent. Robbed a bunch of shit, did stuff, got sent to juvie.

• 26:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And his older cousin, uh oh, his older cousin Mike came back from Vietnam. And he had been a Green Beret in Vietnam. And it's as bad as you think. Mike,

• 27:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Ricky hung around with Mike and Mike was like, here's all the shit I did to women in Vietnam. Here's what we did to the enemy. Here's this, here's that. Just filling his head with all this terrible shit. Showed him pictures and mutilations and torture.

• 27:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible, like Polaroid pictures. And, and Mike was married and the two of them would hang out. Ricky and Mike would hang out and smoke pot, talk about Satan worship. Um, and Mike's wife finally was like, I don't want you hanging out with him anymore. And you guys just sit around or whatever. Well, Mike went ahead and shot and killed his wife in front of Richard Ramirez.

• 27:44Georgia Hardstark?

  How old was Richard at this time?

• 27:45Karen Kilgariff?

  He was a teenager. I believe he was 15. I don't.

• 27:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 27:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't have the exact age written down. He was a teenager. Um, they say that the trauma from that is basically fueled much of his, the rest of his life.

• 28:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm sure by that time he was so desensitized to murder and torture and that even like without that happening, I feel like he would have.

• 28:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 28:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Been fucked.

• 28:08Karen Kilgariff?

  He was, yeah, he was definitely already kind of a sad case.

• 28:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And then that was like, imagine that level of trauma, just seeing someone shot. They, they said that he had blood on him.

• 28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 28:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how close he was. So, bad news. He was also inspired by the Hillside Stranglers.

• 28:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, it's weird to feel sympathy for him. You know what I mean? Like.

• 28:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, cause, cause, yeah, because if you don't hit your head and you don't have a fucked up cousin named Mike, um, could Richard Ramirez have just been a guy that then went on to live in El Paso and work at a mattress store?

• 28:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 28:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, did he, because, I don't know, stuff like that is like, after what, if you become, I mean, obviously we've talked about this a ton. It's, it's a mental disorder. You can't just kill people. It's a psychopathy or whatever, but it, it's sad to think that he had to start his life like that.

• 29:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, it's awful. Um, uh, right now, Last Podcast on the Left is doing a Hillside Stranglers series and it's awesome.

• 29:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 29:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And the, uh, the lead detective on the Hillside Stranglers, so, so Richard Ramirez loved hearing about the Hillside Stranglers. He ended up moving to LA after that happened and like kind of bumming around there. So when the Hillside Stranglers cases, um, He had heard about them. I don't know if he was living in L.A. while it was happening or whatever, but he was very inspired and he really liked that story. He got really fascinated by it. And it turned out that a detective named Frank Salerno was the lead detective on the Hillside Strangler's case.

• 29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he also was the lead detective on the Night Stalker case. And Frank Salerno said that the experience he had going through the Hillside Strangler and all the mistakes that he made and they all made and that he learned from is the reason that they were able to catch the Night Stalker.

• 29:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 29:59Karen Kilgariff?

  As quickly as they did. That it didn't go on for years and years and years.

• 30:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he'd learned so much from being on that other huge, high-profile case.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So, anyway, it basically starts February 25th, 1985. A six-year-old Montebello girl is taken from a bus bench near school while waiting for her older sister. She was carried away in a zippered garment bag.

• 30:21Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 30:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Sexually assaulted and dropped off in Silver Lake.

• 30:25Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 30:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So, this is one of his earliest crimes.

• 30:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Then, a month later, March 11th, a nine-year-old Monterey Park boy is kidnapped from his home at night, sexually assaulted, left in Elysian Park near Silver Lake.

• 30:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, we're like, five minutes from those places.

• 30:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. And this is the nightmare sauce of someone comes into your house and takes a child.

• 30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 30:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's beyond fucked up.

• 30:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we comment on how weird it is that he doesn't discriminate sex with sex?

• 30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Of people?

• 30:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And, I mean, that's one of the things is they had a very hard time establishing an M.O. with him because it was all ages, all sexes.

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:07Karen Kilgariff?

  All races. Like, there was no pattern.

• 31:10Georgia Hardstark?

  There was no connection, so maybe they didn't put it all together as one person.

• 31:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, exactly.

• 31:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 31:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, March 17th, Dale Akazaki, 34, is killed, and her roommate, Maria Hernandez, is wounded in an attack in their Rosemead condominium. And two miles from that apartment, Sia Lian Yu, thirty, of Monterey Park is pulled from her car near her home and shot. She dies the next day.

• 31:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus. I mean, you think that like in your car, you're good.

• 31:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, no. Well, lock your goddamn door.

• 31:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Lock your fucking door.

• 31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  To quit showing off. Um, sorry, it's victim blaming. Um, March twentieth, an Eagle Rock girl is kidnapped and sexually molested by a man who breaks into her family's home at night.

• 31:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 31:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Again. So this is, he's getting the taste for, you know, he puts on all black and he goes fucking sneaking around. And what they say is a lot of these, I mean, this was nineteen eighty-five.

• 32:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Such an innocent time. People left their doors ajar at night. It was, it was, uh, yeah, bad news. So he was basically going around trying doors.

• 32:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 32:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, March twenty-seventh, Vincent Cesara, sixty-four, is a retired investment counselor. And he's beaten to death and his wife Maxine, who is forty-four, is stabbed to death by an attacker who enters their ranch-style Whittier home through an open door. Oh shit. God damn it. I always try to scroll on my computer by touching the thing and it zips me back up to the top. Uh, okay, we'll edit that part out and we're back in. Uh, open door. Their bodies are found by a business acquaintance. I actually, I got two different stories on this. I got a business acquaintance, this is an LA Times article.

• 32:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But actually, there's another article that I read that their son found them.

• 32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 32:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder what their relationship was like. He was twenty years older than her?

• 33:01Karen Kilgariff?

  He was twenty years older. I bet he had money. They lived in Whittier. Whittier is like real pristine.

• 33:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Tony.

• 33:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a bunch of white Christians.

• 33:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of living out in the valley. That's where Nixon went to college.

• 33:10Georgia Hardstark?

  They were a fun couple.

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet they were fu- I bet they were fun times.

• 33:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but here's the gross part that we'll have to uncomfortably transition into. He mutilated her body. She had a T shape carved into her breast. And, ready?

• 33:24Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 33:25Karen Kilgariff?

  This one's bad.

• 33:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 33:26Karen Kilgariff?

  He gouged out her eyes and took them with him.

• 33:28Georgia Hardstark?

  No!

• 33:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-huh.

• 33:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Boobies and eyes.

• 33:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, problems. What we're, what we're saying is problems.

• 33:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Leave the boobies and the eyes alone.

• 33:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Please.

• 33:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Please.

• 33:38Karen Kilgariff?

  No matter what the devil tells you to do.

• 33:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, he's, he's joking.

• 33:44Georgia Hardstark?

  He was like being facetious and you took it seriously, fucking idiot.

• 33:47Karen Kilgariff?

  The devil's joking, you mean? Is that what you're saying?

• 33:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-huh.

• 33:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember that the devil has a very wry sense of humor. And so sometimes he's just being sarcastic.

• 33:58Georgia Hardstark?

  He's basically George Burns. Just, okay, sorry, go on.

• 34:02Karen Kilgariff?

  The autopsy revealed that those mutilations were postmortem.

• 34:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 34:07Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the good news.

• 34:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank God.

• 34:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I should have, I buried the lead on that one.

• 34:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I figured, because I just couldn't handle it.

• 34:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's, it's too much. Um, he, this was a house where he left footprints in the flowerbeds. And the police photographed them and made a cast. Um, and that was the only evidence that they had at the time. And they found bullets at the scene, matched those to previous attacks. And that's when the police started putting together they have a serial killer. That there's someone, you know, going around doing some shit. Um, yeah, this one says that Vincent and Maxine's bodies were discovered in their Whittier home by their son, Peter. I hate that because like, what, the thing that I was reading seemed very reliable. And then I was starting to get, the more you read, because there's so much about the Night Stalker. Um, there's, there was conflicting reports.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you, oh God, I just picture the eyeballless mom.

• 34:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 34:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, it's bad enough, but then...

• 35:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's nightmare, like, that's special horror movie. That's like, that's like the third scare in the horror movie where it's like the worst one.

• 35:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 35:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Not having eyes is bad news.

• 35:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Mabel Bell on May 29th. So then, uh, let's see, that was, so later that month, this was like two weeks later. Mabel Bell, age 84.

• 35:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, honey.

• 35:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And her invalid sister Florence Lang, age 81.

• 35:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Ladies.

• 35:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Are beaten in their Monrovia home. Uh, and they live in a house, uh, down a long, narrow, winding road. Um, and they're found four days later by a gardener.

• 35:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 35:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And they weren't dead, but, uh, Mabel died.

• 35:44Georgia Hardstark?

  They weren't dead four days later?

• 35:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-uh. Oh, maybe, sorry, maybe Florence was dead, but Mabel was still alive.

• 35:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 35:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But she only lived two more months. It's, this is rough, because he, this was, this was why this guy was so, like, frightening. He didn't give a fuck. I mean, he raped old women, he raped children. He was just, uh, you know, he was on one.

• 36:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Crazy, like, yeah, right off the bat, just to be... Berserk.

• 36:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. June 27th, Patty Elaine Higgins, who is 32, had her throat slashed in her Arcadia home. And also, for people that don't know the Los Angeles area, all these areas are just low-key suburban, outlying cities.

• 36:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're not, they're not like, close. It's not like, these are all random little cities that are not like, connected in any way.

• 36:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is so weird.

• 36:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just kind of all around the San Gabriel Valley.

• 36:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, which is surprising that they were able to connect them, because it's, it sounds like it'd be all different districts.

• 36:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, they kept finding this Avia shoe print in places. That was one of the things that...

• 36:45Georgia Hardstark?

  A what?

• 36:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Avia, you know that brand?

• 36:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, no.

• 36:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, A-V-I-A.

• 36:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's kind of, it looks kind of Reebok-y, like, the symbol is partial Reebok, but extra lines.

• 36:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So are people freaking out at this point? Like, does everyone know about it?

• 37:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. We heard about it up north.

• 37:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You remember it?

• 37:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I was 15.

• 37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 37:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh dude, the, he, okay, this was crazy, because it was like he was on tour. Like, it was like a nightmare, because you heard about it down in LA or whatever, and you're like, oh, those poor people.

• 37:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he popped up to the Bay Area.

• 37:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 37:18Karen Kilgariff?

  People were losing their shit. It was crazy.

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It was like, it was basically kind of like watching a storm come, where you're just like, and it truly was that thing of like, we could be next.

• 37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It was nuts. Okay, so, um, uh, it was only like, four days later, two miles away from the Higgins home, Mary Louise Cannon, who was 77, um, who had already fought off two bouts of cancer, was murdered.

• 37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 37:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Her throat was slashed, that was in Arcadia. Ju- July 7th, Joyce Nelson, who was 61, was beaten to death in Monterey Park. Um, and July 11th, uh, they have a, uh, Monterey Park has a Neighborhood Watch meeting, and 600 people go to it, because people are freaking out. They're just like, um, but they, the police are like, we're sorry, we don't have a suspect. So they have these tiny pieces of evidence, but no suspect at all. Um, on July 20th, Chainarong Cavannah, who is 32 years old, is slain in his Sun Valley home, and his wife is beaten and raped, and their eight-year-old son is beaten.

• 38:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And they, he steals thirty thousand dollars in jewels and cash from the house.

• 38:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 38:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 38:35Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you doing in Sun Valley?

• 38:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, right? Hiding your shit.

• 38:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You'd have to. Um, but a witness sees the suspect flee in a maroon colored Pontiac, um, Grand Prix.

• 38:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 38:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That has a damaged right front fender.

• 38:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, yeah.

• 38:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So now they have at least, they have that. Um, so then on July twentieth, uh, Max Needing, who is sixty-eight, and his wife, Leela Ellen, who is sixty-six, were shot to death in Glendale.

• 39:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 39:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so close to here. Um, August sixth, Christopher Peterson is thirty-eight, his wife, Virginia, is twenty-seven, and they're both shot in the head in their Northridge home and survived.

• 39:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 39:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Survived.

• 39:19Georgia Hardstark?

  God, it's just so wild and hopeful that you can survive a fucking head shooting.

• 39:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. It happens in the show I Survived all the time.

• 39:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 39:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's people in a very normal voice, but being like, I heard this loud noise and my head hurt really bad.

• 39:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You're just like, how are you telling me this story?

• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, it's like I make money off of I Survived. I'm really not, I'm not sponsored, I swear to God.

• 39:42Georgia Hardstark?

  You should be.

• 39:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I actually should be. So, um, on August eighth, my sister's birthday, Elias Abouath, thirty-five, is shot to death in his Diamond Bar home, which is fancy.

• 39:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Isn't Diamond Bar where they have all the horses?

• 39:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 39:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's.

• 40:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I've never been there. I've lived here my whole life and I'm just in like Sun Valley.

• 40:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, you know what it is? No Jews allowed in Diamond Bar. That's what it is.

• 40:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Not surprised.

• 40:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, okay, so he, he's thirty-five. That's so young.

• 40:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:14Karen Kilgariff?

  He's shot to death. His wife is beaten. His two children, ages three and three months, not harmed.

• 40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank God. So later in the day, um, They say that they have linked that this attack on the Abouaths is the final link that they are all the same suspect from all of these attacks. And this is the first public revelation that there's a serial killer loose in Southern California.

• 40:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That took that many bodies.

• 40:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And also because it was so random, like Sun Valley and Diamond Bar are two very different cities.

• 40:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 40:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So, August 10th, reports of crimes made by citizens to LAPD Communications are up 15%. Everyone's on edge. They're freaking out.

• 41:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So, people are calling in. There's increased sales at gun shops, of course. Everyone's freaking out.

• 41:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I would be staying in a hotel forever.

• 41:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 41:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Indefinitely.

• 41:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So, then the Board of Supervisors offers a $10,000 reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the night.

• 41:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Gonna need more than that, bro.

• 41:20Karen Kilgariff?

  How about, you know what?

• 41:22Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what? Up that shit.

• 41:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's get that money up there. So, now that they link back to the shooting of Cylon Yu in Monterey Park from March 17th, they're like, it's this one too. They, the gun, the ballistics evidence that they have links that in. Then on August 17th, a man named Peter Pan, who was 66, yeah, was shot and killed in his bed in his San Francisco home.

• 41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck.

• 41:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And his wife Barbara, who's 64, is shot and beaten, but she survives.

• 42:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Was her name Wendy? Was that the most insensitive thing I've ever said in my life?

• 42:06Karen Kilgariff?

  No, we have to do it.

• 42:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 42:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And their dog was also the nanny. That's the part I love in Peter Pan where it's like, so the dog takes care of the children.

• 42:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then he locks them out and they go missing. Right?

• 42:20Karen Kilgariff?

  They all do drugs and fly off the roof.

• 42:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Good, good job, Dad.

• 42:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So, August 22nd.

• 42:30Karen Kilgariff?

  They, the people, the cops in San Francisco announced that the slaying of Peter Pan and his wife is the night stalker. And that's when the NorCal goes, "Ape shit."

• 42:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I still remember, I can't remember, like, I just remember watching it on the news with my family. We, we watched so much news every night.

• 42:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, news was a nightly occurrence.

• 42:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You know how we all avoid it now? No, it's not what you did.

• 42:54Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you watched it as a family and, and went through it. But like, I remember that, like, Dianne Feinstein was on, they were making, like, official announcements. It was all breaking news. It was like, it was a big deal.

• 43:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Remember when news was like, from six to seven, and then there was like, gonna be a 10 to 11, and that was it for news? It wasn't like how it is now.

• 43:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Yeah, that was, we had to watch it then. Like, my parents would turn off, you know, something we wanted to watch. And they'd be like, "No, no, no, it's time for the news." Like, Entertainment Tonight is what we'd wanna watch.

• 43:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 43:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And they'd be like, "It's time for the news," 'cause you wouldn't get it otherwise.

• 43:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, right after Jeopardy.

• 43:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. So, um, uh, sorry, I lost my spot. They... Oh, so, they say that the evidence that they have that's linking it are the ballistics, also, uh, messages that he scrawled on the walls. And, um, and a distinctive but undisclosed piece of evidence that the killer left behind in the homes of his victims. Um, but, then Diane, San Francisco, at the time, San Francisco Mayor Dianne Feinstein gets on the news, offering a $10,000 reward for any information, uh, for the capture of the night stalker. Um, unfortunately, she gives away that that distinctive piece of proof they have is his shoe print. And so that night-

• 44:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 44:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Richard Ramirez walks onto the Golden Gate Bridge and throws his shoes over.

• 44:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So, no longer is that going to be a piece of evidence-

• 44:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He did that, really?

• 44:16Karen Kilgariff?

  -that helps anything. Yep.

• 44:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 44:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Um...

• 44:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet everyone who had those shoes did that, though. Just like, 49 guys on the Golden Gate Bridge, so you're like, "Oh, shit."

• 44:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Forty-nine peeping toms, that are like, "Why did I ever buy a Vias?" Um... All right, so, August 25th, a man named Bill Karns, who was 27, is critically injured by being shot in the head while sleeping in his Mission Viejo home. So now the night stalker's back down.

• 44:47Georgia Hardstark?

  He's in Orange County now.

• 44:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Is that where Mission Viejo is?

• 44:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Mission Viejo is Orange County.

• 44:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And his 29 fiancee, hey, sorry, his 29-year-old fiancee, I believe her name was Inez. I don't, I, my saved document and my original document are both on here, and some has some information and some has other. Here we go. Um, fuck. So, Bill Karns' fiancee Inez is raped, but as the night stalker runs out of the house and gets into the stolen car that he has stolen from San Francisco down to, back down to Orange County, she sees him leave in a 1976 orange Toyota station wagon.

• 45:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Why are you getting an orange car, night stalker?

• 45:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Not smart. Yeah, how about black, brown, go for your...

• 45:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Brown, because it's the 80s, probably, yeah.

• 45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And you'd blend in.

• 45:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 45:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Brown or like a, kind of a shimmery blue.

• 45:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 45:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Was every single car on the road.

• 45:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so she sees that, and she like crawled up to the window and saw that, and so was able to tell the police that that's the car that the guy had.

• 46:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Good girl.

• 46:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So, um, now, Los Angeles City Council's offering a $25,000 reward.

• 46:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, you are.

• 46:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And then Governor Duke Magin announces the state is gonna add 10 grand onto that.

• 46:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's more like it.

• 46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So, when they find the stolen Toyota, they pick up, there's a new laser examining device that they use, and they pick up a single fingerprint on the rearview mirror.

• 46:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 46:27Karen Kilgariff?

  He took off his gloves, readjusted that mirror, and they found one fingerprint in the whole car.

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Talking to see if he had anything in his teeth, and he fucking...

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And he, you know what he had in his teeth?

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  The most rotten teeth of all time.

• 46:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 46:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. His mouth was filled with them. Oh, you've never seen his teeth?

• 46:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 46:42Karen Kilgariff?

  He never had any dental work done his entire life, and all he ever ate was candy and drank Coke. The first time he ever went to the dentist was when he was in jail.

• 46:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's trash mouth.

• 46:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Crazy. The mouth on this guy is nutso.

• 46:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Ugh.

• 46:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrifying. And a lot of his suspects, they, the, um, thing all the women who were attacked, who lived, said was, "The worst breath I've ever smelled."

• 47:06Georgia Hardstark?

  What a weird, yeah.

• 47:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 47:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Insult to injury.

• 47:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, just make it as upsetting as it possibly can be. Um, so, uh, they use that fingerprint and they find in a computer system that, that was very new. It had like just gone online.

• 47:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That there was a guy who had like very, I think misdemeanors, like, like burglary shit, named Richard Ramirez. So, they got their guy. So, they put out an all points bulletin for the arrest of Richard Ramirez. Um, and they have the, have you ever seen the, um, the picture that the police sketch artist drew of him?

• 47:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, it looks just like him, right.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, but it's also one of the scariest things ever.

• 47:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm looking it up right now. Go on.

• 47:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Um, so they put out, um, there's the picture that the, that the cop drew, but then they have a mugshot of him in real life. And that goes on the front page of all the papers in, in Los Angeles. Um, so meanwhile, Ramirez has no idea that that's happened because he was in Phoenix visiting his brother. And so, the cops stake out the bus station because they think he's gonna try to leave town now that his picture went up.

• 48:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's already gone.

• 48:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Stake out the bus station. He was already gone. He was coming back. He passed the cops in the bus station.

• 48:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 48:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And just kept it cool and walked out of the bus station downtown, walked into Boyle Heights, went over to a liquor store, walked up, there was a newspaper, um, you know, stand thing, right on the outside. He picks up the newspaper and sees the picture of himself on the front of the newspaper. Inside the store, a woman looks and starts yelling, "El matón, el matón," which in Spanish, I'm giving that a French accent because I took French in high school. In Spanish, I guess that means "the bully."

• 49:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 49:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, and he hears that and he starts running.

• 49:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so this I love so much.

• 49:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 49:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He starts running. So he goes over to, he runs and he tries to carjack a woman. So he runs up, he punches her in the stomach and he tries to pull her out of the car. The husband of this woman hears this going on, grabs a pipe.

• 49:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck yeah dude.

• 49:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Runs out, the guy, Richard Ramirez is in the car, he hits him over the head.

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck yeah.

• 49:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And so Ramirez runs out of that car and starts running. Um, a man named Jose Bergeron, who was the neighbor, had run over, but he was an older man at the time. Now he's in his eighties. At the time, he was in his fifties. And he ran over to defend, to defend her. And Richard Ramirez had said, "Don't get any closer or I'll shoot you." But the guy says, "I didn't see a gun, so I went..." So he basically opened the car door and then the husband came out and hit him in the head. He starts running. Jose Bergeron, Burgoin, however you say it, calls for his two sons.

• 50:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh yeah.

• 50:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And says, "Run after him."

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck yeah dude.

• 50:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So these two boys start running. They ran for two miles.

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  They chase him down.

• 50:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 50:18Karen Kilgariff?

  As they start running, everyone in the neighborhood sees it and starts running too.

• 50:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, can you fucking imagine?

• 50:25Karen Kilgariff?

  There's 200 people running up the street.

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  How did I never know this?

• 50:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It was, I think I remember seeing this. Now, I could have seen a reenactment in a, uh, in a, I'm sure I saw a reenactment, but I feel like I remember seeing the helicopter shot on the news of all the people in the street in Boyle Heights. Because basically, this whole fucking neighborhood was like, "We got the fucking night stalker."

• 50:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck yeah.

• 50:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They, these two boys, um, it was Jamie and I can't remember the other brother's name. Um, Burgoin, B U R G O I N.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Along with like four or five other dudes, they pin him to the ground, they have him on the curb, and everyone just starts beating the shit out of him. They call, they had called the cops, um, I think Jose called the cops when they started running. So the cops got there mid beat down, so that Richard Ramirez was going, "It's me, it's me." And the cops saved him from this crowd of people.

• 51:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 51:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's my favorite.

• 51:29Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 51:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Thing in the world, isn't that awesome? He tried, I think he tried to, um, a- at one point, he ran through a backyard. They have a picture of a guy who tried to hit him with, he was pruning his, his, the tree in his yard. And the guy tried to like stab him with these pruning shea, these huge pruning shears, but he missed.

• 51:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 51:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And so they had all these, it's the best, you can, you can look it on the line. There's pictures of all these people who are from Boyle Heights who got these awards. They got awards from the city, they got awards from the cops.

• 51:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, yeah.

• 51:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, it's awesome. And it's totally just people like, no, not in our fucking neighborhood.

• 52:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Good.

• 52:04Karen Kilgariff?

  He thought he could go and just blend in.

• 52:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And just be like, oh, whatever.

• 52:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Karen Kilgariff?

  That's my favorite. So, uh, and when they brought him down to their local precinct, 500 people were outside chanting. Like, they wanted to kill him. They wanted him strung out.

• 52:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Just like send him out.

• 52:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I mean, this is a man who like, this story after story, it only got scarier. And he became like, he was like this phantom where no one could figure out who he was, where he was. And he was everywhere. You know, he was just driving around, changing city.

• 52:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Geez, my parents did a really good job of keeping this shit from me, cause I don't fucking remember any of this.

• 52:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't?

• 52:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 52:41Karen Kilgariff?

  How old were you, though?

• 52:42Georgia Hardstark?

  What, was it 87?

• 52:43Karen Kilgariff?

  85.

• 52:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I was five.

• 52:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah.

• 52:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And little baby Georgia. And Mission Viejo, that's like, that's like 15 minutes, 10 minutes from Irvine where I grew up.

• 52:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Marty, good job.

• 52:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job, Marty.

• 52:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Well done.

• 52:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Janet, they were going through their divorce, so I was busy.

• 52:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's good. You probably were getting him a lot of extra toys.

• 53:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, probably.

• 53:02Karen Kilgariff?

  At the time?

• 53:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I was just gonna see this really quick. Oh, um, one of the cops said, "It seems like alert citizens were reporting the suspect every step of the way." So basically, as they ran up the street, every house was calling the cops.

• 53:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine what it would have been like if they had, like, now, if they had fucking cell phones? I bet you it would be half as many people chasing him and half, and the other half would be filming him.

• 53:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Filming it, yeah. We'd be able to post this and just be like, "Here, here's what happened."

• 53:30Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys put your phone away and participate.

• 53:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, so, at the end of, so the cops come in, and there is a super, if you wanna look it up, very scary picture of him in the, in the cop car, 'cause his whole head is wrapped. So instead of having, like, his rock star hair or whatever, he has, he looks like a gray alien. He is so scary looking in the backseat, is, he had some pretty serious head injuries. They were beating the shit out of him.

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Good, yeah.

• 53:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, yeah. Uh, he actually says, "I'm lucky the cops caught me."

• 53:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 54:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Because these people were going to kill him.

• 54:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I don't doubt it.

• 54:03Karen Kilgariff?

  At the end, the last victim that was confirmed of the night stalker was nine-year-old Mi Lung, whose body was found in a San Francisco hotel basement in 1984. She wasn't linked to him until 2009.

• 54:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 54:18Karen Kilgariff?

  When they found, they got DNA.

• 54:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, honey.

• 54:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And, um, yeah.

• 54:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Poor baby, yeah.

• 54:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrible. So he had actually done that while he was in the city, but they didn't know.

• 54:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I wonder how many other, like, go ahead, sorry.

• 54:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, well, he was arrested on August 31st, 1985, but he didn't, um, the jury selection didn't begin until July of 1988.

• 54:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 54:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they did so many delays and, and continuances and all that shit, his, he did everything he could to make sure that they didn't start this thing on time.

• 54:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 54:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, they basically, uh, finally convicted him of, of 14 homicides and, uh, all the other felonies, um, and attacks on September 20th, 1989. It was four years after his arrest.

• 55:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 55:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And during the trial, there was a juror named Phyllis Singletary, who didn't show up one day, and she'd been shot in her home. And then all the jurors were freaking out that he had had, he was having the jurors killed.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  What happened?

• 55:21Karen Kilgariff?

  She, it was a domestic, um, violence thing.

• 55:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course it was.

• 55:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And her, uh, I think boyfriend murdered her.

• 55:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Son of a bitch.

• 55:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so that was, just to, just to add to the freak-out factor.

• 55:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude, totally. Oh, are you, what if you were on that jury?

• 55:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, could you imagine?

• 55:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 55:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Scary enough because they said, all the jurors said, the stuff that they saw, the evidence that they saw in the pictures they had to look at, none of them were sleeping.

• 55:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And I bet the man himself, he's such a creep, having to sit like, can you imagine just like from where you and I are sitting right now, that that's a fucking night stalker?

• 55:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And he was doing things, I mean, there's tons of famous pictures, he was doing things like putting his hand up and he had a pentagram on his hand, which in the eighties, people, it was, that was the whole satanic panic time, where it was like, this guy is Satan. People freaked out about that shit. It was very scary.

• 56:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He also, they found out about a plot that Ramirez had to somehow sneak a gun into the courtroom and kill the prosecutor.

• 56:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 56:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So then they put in, uh, so, sorry, eventually, he was, he was sentenced to death for 13 murders, five attempted murders, 11 sexual assaults, and 14 burglaries.

• 56:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And when they, at the end of the trial, when he was convicted, he said, "No big deal. Death always comes with the territory. I'll see you in Disneyland."

• 56:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And when they sentenced him, he said, uh, he grinned when they said, you know, you're, it was like, I think it's something like 14 death sentences. He said, his official statement was, "You maggots make me sick, hypocrites one and all. We're all expendable for a cause, and no one knows that better than those who kill for policy, clandestinely or openly, as do the governments of the world, which kill in the name of God and country, and for whatever else they deem appropriate. You don't understand me, you are not expected to, you are not capable of it. I am beyond your experience, I am beyond good and evil."

• 57:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That's pretty fucking poetic. Like, for someone who's insane and has a head injury and isn't probably educated, that's fucking, uh, pretty powerful.

• 57:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's powerful, but it also, uh, being somebody who is in the 12-step program, I would like to mention that addicts have a real sense of grandiosity about themselves. And so this is a person who is pretending that because he is a psychotic, uncontrollable murderer, that somehow makes him magical and special.

• 57:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:50Karen Kilgariff?

  When in fact, it just makes him an animal.

• 57:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's really what he was.

• 57:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, and you're right, and I think people probably... It wasn't just him who was thinking of him as grandiose, it was everyone because it was such a, you know, it was so terrifying and he was able, single-handedly to put this, put this whole city into a panic.

• 58:10Karen Kilgariff?

  The whole state.

• 58:10Georgia Hardstark?

  He believed it and I think probably everyone else did too.

• 58:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and he looked the part, everything, it was, it was kind of, it was on the level of Ted Bundy in, in how he looked evil, but then he was also sexy, there was a rock star element. So then it kicked up all that stuff of like, women being like, I'm in love with him. He actually married a woman while he was in

• 58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 58:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, jail who is not, uh, he is, is not a rock star, doesn't look like a rock star type of gal herself. It's very fascinating and she was also a virgin.

• 58:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 58:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I kind of am fascinated by.

• 58:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like the fact that he was able to get, it's like the same thing with Ted Bundy where it's like, how can you be so prolific? How can you kill so many people in such a short time and get away with it? It's almost like you, you are, you are on another level.

• 58:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He, he was on another, I think another level in that way of you can't track chaos.

• 59:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And he really was, he wasn't, um, sticking into a neighborhood, he wasn't, there was no, they couldn't get a hold on him because he would just switch the city.

• 59:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 59:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And he also switched the, his, the type, there was, they couldn't follow any of it.

• 59:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, it was just like, oh, there's just another body and another body and another body.

• 59:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And the same way Ted Bundy, because of his charm, they couldn't figure him out. Maybe those were, those two things that he was switching cities and that this guy was charming, are what were able to make those people get away with so much.

• 59:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Well, and also I think the people's sense of, oh, who would and wouldn't do things was very different back then. It was very uneducated.

• 59:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, but in, I'm still reading that Ted Bundy book right now. Fucking, Anne Rule heard the news that the man was named Ted at the, um, at the, those lake murders where the two women disappeared in one day.

• 1:00:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, that it was a man named Ted and that he had a gold color, a gold metallic bug, Volkswagen bug. And she knew that his name was Ted and he had a gold metallic bug. And she told people, but she still didn't think it was him.

• 1:00:17Georgia Hardstark?

  She still didn't think it was him.

• 1:00:18Karen Kilgariff?

  No. No, she was like, there's no way it could be him, but, but she did tell a cop that she knew because she worked with them. And she was like, just so you know, I'll give you this name, but it can't, it can't be.

• 1:00:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Did they follow up on him?

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, like a little bit, but he had then moved to Colorado. I think by the time those two were being like really looked into.

• 1:00:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:00:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So anyway, that's the Night Stalker. I'm sure there's so much more online about him, cause you know, like.

• 1:00:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but there's always gonna be more. It's amazing.

• 1:00:49Karen Kilgariff?

  When it's, when it's a classic like him.

• 1:00:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, happy birthday to his death.

• 1:00:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Happy, happy death day, Rich.

• 1:00:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Happy death day, you piece of shit.

• 1:00:57Karen Kilgariff?

  You total lunatic.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, this story ends on such an incredible note. Again, fucking shout out to Boyle Heights and the people of Boyle Heights, like.

• 1:01:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Boyle Heights.

• 1:01:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:01:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, I got so excited because I just was like, if you watch the Netflix documentary, Night Stalker, The Hunt for a Serial Killer, you have to watch it.

• 1:01:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the people who chased him down are in that documentary. They get to tell the story themselves. And it is so great. It's so satisfying. The individuals who are on camera, some of them are survivors and victims, which is incredible, listening to them and they're seeing that, like a person being able to tell that story with like strength and spirit. And it's, it's an amazing piece of work, in my opinion.

• 1:01:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But the people who are like, we saw him and we heard that that's who it was and we knew we had to get him. Like, it's just, it's the beauty of like humanity, where it's like, you're not allowed to hurt people like this and we're gonna do something about it.

• 1:02:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. We're not minding our own business. This is, you can't. We can't do this and you can't come into our neighborhood. Speaking of neighborhoods, when I was like rereading some of the details of this, I real, I like looked it up because I was like, oh, oh, and it turns out that Richard Ramirez, the Night Stalker and the Hillside Stranglers, both attacked people like in my immediate neighborhood that I now live in.

• 1:02:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's, we didn't, we didn't catch him. It was Boyle Heights.

• 1:02:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Boyle Heights got him.

• 1:02:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I think though, the way Los Angeles is.

• 1:02:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:02:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I think in any neighborhood, you could probably say that because there's been so many insane serial killers down here.

• 1:02:44Georgia Hardstark?

  If I was like, I live in this, on this block in Duluth and that's, and there's two people, like that would be wild. But LA, no, no, that's not, that's not that.

• 1:02:52Karen Kilgariff?

  LA is, we've had some bad ones.

• 1:02:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, sure. We sure have. It's a great place to go if you're a bad person.

• 1:02:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's no major updates in this case, obviously, except for that I love to brag that my cousin Martin was a cop who picked up one of the fingerprints that eventually led to his identification in San Francisco. Very, I'm very proud. I'm also very angry that he waited until, like, he said it at Thanksgiving as if it was no big deal, one year where it was like, you've, you've had this information since it happened. That's insane.

• 1:03:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Like make a T-shirt. You should be wearing that T-shirt that says that all the time.

• 1:03:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on. You stopped that guy. You helped stop him. But anyway, the, the only update is just watch that Netflix documentary because it's so good and it gives you, it just gives you all the color and the, you know, the firsthand accounts that you need to hear. And that cop Gil, I can't remember his last name, but he was in, he worked both of those cases, Hillside Strangler and the Night Stalker. He's in there a lot.

• 1:03:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So now let's listen to Georgia's story about the Bain family murders.

• 1:04:03Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:04:20Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:04:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with Simply Safe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com/mfm.

• 1:04:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplysafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 1:05:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Simply Safe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 1:05:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:05:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Holiday shopping gets a lot easier when you can find something for everyone.

• 1:05:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially when everyone includes yourself.

• 1:05:16Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:05:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Quince makes beautiful everyday essentials with high-quality materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. They're the kind of things you love to give as a gift or get yourself.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $50 and they also have beautiful 14 karat gold earrings and bracelets that make great gifts.

• 1:05:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so excited when I got home and I got to break out my gray Quince cashmere sweater that I wear constantly around the house. We've been waiting for even the slightest temperature drop so that we could get into sweater weather and finally it's here and I celebrated with my beautiful Quince cashmere sweater that I think I got the second year we started doing ads for them.

• 1:06:03Georgia Hardstark?

  They laugh.

• 1:06:03Karen Kilgariff?

  They do.

• 1:06:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season.

• 1:06:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 1:06:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

• 1:06:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 1:06:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was My Favorite Murder. It's the best way to support the show.

• 1:06:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:06:25Speaker 05

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• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, so my favorite murder.

• 1:07:00Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, this is one that people keep wanting us to do, and I didn't know about it until we started doing this show, which I love finding new ones out.

• 1:07:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That is a good feeling.

• 1:07:10Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. This is the Bain family murders.

• 1:07:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know it.

• 1:07:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Know this one?

• 1:07:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think so.

• 1:07:17Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, you guys in New Zealand. I feel, I hear everyone from New Zealand cheering right now because they're like, finally.

• 1:07:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I've, we have severely underserved Australia, New Zealand, that whole area.

• 1:07:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I tell you, I was, I met some girls who were from Australia, and I was like, well, Australia's better. And they're like, why? And I'm like, you have better serial killers. And they thought, I think they looked at me like I was fucking, like, I don't think that they were on the same level as me.

• 1:07:41Karen Kilgariff?

  They're not, they're not one of us.

• 1:07:43Georgia Hardstark?

  No, because they're like, oh, uh. And they like, kind of looked at each other. I'm like, yeah, we got good serial killers. It's like, oh, anyways.

• 1:07:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyways, nice to meet you.

• 1:07:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I love my cats. Okay, so on the morning of June 20th, 1994, I might have, that might have been my bat mitzvah day, actually.

• 1:07:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, really?

• 1:07:59Georgia Hardstark?

  The day I was bat mitzvahed.

• 1:08:01Karen Kilgariff?

  What was your main bat mitzvah gift?

• 1:08:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, uh, well, the one I remember the most, that I love the most, was a Ren and Stimpy poster.

• 1:08:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. That's so Jewish.

• 1:08:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I know. Yeah. Fucking love Ren and Stimpy.

• 1:08:15Karen Kilgariff?

  They're pretty great.

• 1:08:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so David Bain, who was 22 and at 7:00 AM about, he called 111, which I'm assuming is 911 in here.

• 1:08:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna say 999.

• 1:08:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:08:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, it's 999, I get it.

• 1:08:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:08:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh. I think I'm slowly losing my mind.

• 1:08:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I think you are too.

• 1:08:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It'll be fun though, because I'll do it on this podcast.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Because last week you asked, why didn't I ask this victim, this murder victim if she had had sex with her wife?

• 1:08:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and I was pissed about it too. It was like, this is really bad police work that you wouldn't ask a dead person why, anyhow.

• 1:08:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that because it's like, that's such an obvious brain malfunction.

• 1:08:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I had very low blood sugar. Alright, go ahead.

• 1:08:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Fair enough. So at 7:00 AM, he calls the operator and he says, they're, they're all dead, they're all dead. When the police arrived, they found five members of the Bain family, they had all been shot to death. The father, Robin, who was 58, the wife, Margaret, who was 50, the daughters, Arawa, who was 19, and Lynette, who was 18. I might be saying these two girls' names wrong. I'm sorry.

• 1:09:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Lynette sounds right.

• 1:09:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Lynette, well, it's L A N I E T.

• 1:09:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:09:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Lynette, and Arawa is A R A W A.

• 1:09:27Karen Kilgariff?

  A R A W A.

• 1:09:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Arawa, sorry.

• 1:09:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you mean Arya Stark? From Game of Thrones?

• 1:09:34Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:09:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Alright.

• 1:09:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And their son, Stephen, who was 14. There was, and there was evidence of a violent struggle involving Stephen, who was partially strangled as well as shot. So David's story is that he got up at his usual time, he put on his running shoes, and he was a paper boy at 20. So he went on his regular paper run with the dog. He was, he arrived back around 6:42, entered the front door, went to his room. He went downstairs to the bathroom where he washed his hands, which were black from newsprint. He put his clothes in the washing machine, including the sweatshirt he wore, and then went back upstairs and noticed bullets and the trigger lock on the floor. And he went into his mom's room to find her dead, then visited the other rooms where he heard Lynette gurgling,

• 1:10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  and then found his father dead in the lounge, and he was devastated and rang emergency. And the defense, who ended up trying this case, proposed that Robin, the father, killed the other family members. Before, he switched on the computer and typed a message that said, basically, that David was the only one who deserved to be here.

• 1:10:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And then killed himself, but, and that's what looked like a murder-suicide, right?

• 1:10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, looked like.

• 1:10:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, looks like a murder-suicide. So...

• 1:10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  David Bain was examined by a doctor on the morning and found to have some recent injuries. He reported that he noticed recent bruising to the right temple and bruising of his eye, and it looked pretty new. And David had no way to explain this. He didn't even try to explain this, like he fell off his bike or anything. So, the only suspects were David, the oldest son, and the father. Okay, so they found a lens from the glasses that David had been wearing on the floor of Stephen's room, like, kind of underneath him. And there

• 1:11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  was bloody gloves found in Stephen's room. And why is the father using gloves if he's gonna kill himself?

• 1:11:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 1:11:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:11:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So, four days later, David Bain was charged with five counts of murder. So, what actually happened later, and this is from crime.co.nz, the story is that David wakes up around 5:00 a.m., gets dressed, and pulls out a .22 rifle. He unlocks the trigger, attaches a silencer, and loads 10-round magazine.

• 1:12:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 1:12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Puts on his white gloves, blah-ba-doo-blah. He was wearing his mother's glasses because his are being repaired. He goes into his sister's room where he-

• 1:12:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That is, I'm sorry, that's so scary. That, like, just gave me a weird chill.

• 1:12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Which part? That his mother's, he was wearing his mother's glasses?

• 1:12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a 20-year-old guy wearing white gloves with a rifle with a silencer and women's glasses?

• 1:12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Karen Kilgariff?

  There's something very creepy about that.

• 1:12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Well-

• 1:12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, he's also, sorry, what year was it?

• 1:12:36Georgia Hardstark?

  It was 94.

• 1:12:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So, they're probably those ones where the, like-

• 1:12:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Very large.

• 1:12:41Karen Kilgariff?

  The big, round?

• 1:12:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They're serial killer glasses.

• 1:12:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Um, that's crazy. He goes into his sister Lynette's room where he shoots her twice in the head as she's sleeping. Goes into his mother's room, shoots her in the forehead. In the room of, um, off his mother's room, he finds Steven asleep. He puts the rifle to Steven's head, but Steven wakes up and pushes it away as it goes off. There's a struggle with Steven, bleeding from the scalp wound as he fights for his life. David twists Steven's T-shirt to strangle him as he lies on the floor. David finishes him off with a bullet to the head. And then during the struggle, his glasses fell off. Um, he picks up his glasses and brings them back into his room and puts them on his, like, desk. But there's still a lens in the other room, right?

• 1:13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So he goes downstairs where his sister, um, Arwa, has heard the shots and she's praying for help.

• 1:13:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Honey, why didn't you run? Phone for help, don't pray for help.

• 1:13:41Georgia Hardstark?

  He shoots her, um, he shoots at her and he can't see anything because he's not wearing his glasses. Shoots at her again, finally gets her. Then he goes back upstairs where he hears Lynette gurgling and he shoots her again in the top of the head. And this is a really good, because I'm just gonna get to this. He gets convicted of murdering his family. A few years later, the conviction is overturned. He's now out.

• 1:14:03Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  He was proven, he wasn't proven guilty. He's not proven innocent. He was proven not guilty because of reasonable doubt.

• 1:14:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Why?

• 1:14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And the reason you know that people don't think he's innocent is that he, he tried to get money for his time that he was locked up. And the only way you can get money is if you're proven innocent. And he wasn't. So he shoots her and kills her. He hears the, the other sister gurgling, but remember on his, in his, uh, account of what happened, he said that he heard a sister gurgling when he got home from the news, from the newspaper delivery.

• 1:14:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:14:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So if he heard her and she was already alive, still alive, gurgling, then how did she die? Because she got a second shot and that killed her. The first shot didn't.

• 1:14:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right.

• 1:14:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he's still there when the second shot happened.

• 1:14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  While she's dying and the second shot happened.

• 1:14:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh. Um, he didn't track that correctly.

• 1:14:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No, he did not.

• 1:14:53Karen Kilgariff?

  He should have put that down on a piece of paper.

• 1:14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  He did.

• 1:14:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He should have worked it out on scratch paper.

• 1:14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And then, and then burned the scratch paper.

• 1:15:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And then rinse the ashes down the sink.

• 1:15:02Georgia Hardstark?

  All of it. He did not think this through. So he throws his bloody clothing in the washing machine, turns it on.

• 1:15:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Just burn it.

• 1:15:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And they found the father's blood on the washing machine, like a handprint of this kid's foot. He turns on the computer and he types the suicide message from his father. And what the suicide message was, "Sorry, you're the only one who deserved to stay."

• 1:15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Then he hides behind the curtain with the rifle and waits for his father to come in to pray, which is a daily routine. He kneel, David shoots him in the head and then calls 911. Yeah. Okay, here's the fucking craziest part to me. Two weeks after the murder, after the police have completed their inquiries and handed over, and handed the house back over to the family trustees, the house was burnt to the ground.

• 1:15:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 1:15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  On purpose.

• 1:15:52Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  By the Bain family and the New Zealand Fire Service. And part of the reason that he got off and, and wasn't put in jail the second time was because the fucking cops, and it's like a known thing, I'm not just blaming cops, bungled this so fucking hard. They didn't test the dad's hand for any gun residue, gunpowder, just shit like that, that they just didn't do correctly. They didn't, so what was it?

• 1:16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It was New Zealand, right?

• 1:16:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So they did, probably hadn't had like a, all, a whole family murdered before.

• 1:16:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it was a rural area where they lived too. Yeah. So what they say is that the reason that they, that there was doubt and thoughts that the father had done it and had done a murder-suicide was that the daughter Lynette had returned home, the reason she came home from college that week was to confront her parents with her, that her father had been molesting her. And that they'd had, had an incest, incest, incestual relationship over several years. So he killed his family because of that. That's what, that's what the offering was, right?

• 1:16:51Karen Kilgariff?

  But sorry, who was making that, who was saying that?

• 1:16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, there are people, including both of their friends, because they were close in age, that, that said that they heard that. But when they were called to trial, some, that says something about how they seemed confused about it. So it was never like proven...

• 1:17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  But that also could have been like the defense attorney.

• 1:17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Making it seem like they didn't know what they were talking about.

• 1:17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It seemed like it came from a couple places, but I don't think it was ever proven, which is another thing that the, and everyone, so I, I went, I went on our, my favorite murder email and kind of just looked up Bain to see if anyone had emailed us about them. And actually, a lot of people have. Someone named Alexander, he told me here, I'm, I'm gonna read his, his email.

• 1:17:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:17:33Georgia Hardstark?

  The thing is, here in New Zealand, people on both sides of the camp are so passionate and sure about who they think killed everyone, Robin or David. I've listened to intelligent people argue through their teeth for the completely different sides, and during David's recital, I remember getting our history teacher in high school to spend the whole lesson explaining why David was innocent. I've heard more heated arguments about David Bain than I have about religion or politics.

• 1:17:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:17:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Because people knew him. So like, these are people that knew either the dad or the son?

• 1:18:04Georgia Hardstark?

  No. These are people, I think everyone in New Zealand has an opinion.

• 1:18:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:18:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Based on these random facts. All of this, as well as a clear amount of sexual and physical abuse happening within the Bain family, which I looked up and I couldn't find a ton of, I didn't find a lot of that clear evidence.

• 1:18:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:18:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Combined with rumors of cops planting evidence on the scene to frame David, or the fact that if Robin had killed himself, he'd have come to have pulled the shotgun trigger with his toe, because the gun was really big, made for a pretty fucking intense story. David Bain became kind of a meme in New Zealand because on TV, and all the shots of him getting escorted by the cops, etc., he's always wearing really ugly sweaters.

• 1:18:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah.

• 1:18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And this, I saw a lot. People are calling them Cosby sweaters and shit. So basically, there's a part in the middle of the call, okay, this is really interesting. So basically, in the 911 call, he says they're dead, they're all dead, and basically, there's a part in the middle of the call where David more or less gasps, or mumbles, or murmurs. It's a second long, and you wouldn't think it was anything more than just him being out of breath, but the prosecutor argued that David actually whispered something here. You can actually do tests online where you can listen to the gasp, gasp whisper, and write what you think might be saying, if he's saying anything at all. What the prosecutors are claiming he said was that David quietly whispers to himself, "I shot the prick." So here's a theory that I had never heard before until I read this email.

• 1:19:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That Robin killed his entire family. David came home and found that and killed Robin because of that.

• 1:19:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 1:19:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So it kind of, everybody's guilty.

• 1:19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so this guy says, um, did David discover Robin had killed everyone and in fit of revenge, he shot his prick of a father himself.

• 1:19:45Karen Kilgariff?

  No, because that doesn't prove, that doesn't explain why the sunglasses lens, or the glasses lens is underneath.

• 1:19:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Karen Kilgariff?

  The thing.

• 1:19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He said that he lost, he left the glasses in there like the week prior, something like that. He had an excuse for that.

• 1:20:01Karen Kilgariff?

  They were under the bed or under the brother?

• 1:20:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I think they were, I looked at crime scene photos and they were like a myth, they were like underneath some clothing and stuff. So it wasn't necessarily his, his body. Um, yeah. And then, let's see.

• 1:20:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I will say this, just if this was just like, I had to decide right this second.

• 1:20:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:20:24Karen Kilgariff?

  When you go, when you are, first of all, 20-year-old newspaper delivery boy, red flag.

• 1:20:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Live at home still.

• 1:20:33Karen Kilgariff?

  What the fuck are you doing? Secondly, when you come home from a newspaper route and maybe he was riding a bike all over hills and dales, I don't know. But you would work it out, like, I get washing your hands, because you have black shit all over your hands. But going down to the washing machine and stripping down and washing all your clothes.

• 1:20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And turning the washing machine on immediately doesn't make any sense.

• 1:20:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Nope, it sure doesn't.

• 1:20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, I read another thing that was saying that he, in his explanation of what happened to the cops, he said he saw his mother and his sis, like, two people. But on the 911 call, he says they're dead, they're all dead.

• 1:21:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so he was trying to make it seem like...

• 1:21:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, how did he know they were all dead if, in his, it's another one of his, he fucked up by saying that they're all dead? When, and he had only seen two of the bodies.

• 1:21:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:21:25Georgia Hardstark?

  So how did he know they were all dead?

• 1:21:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:21:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then I kind of interpreted the dad's, um, if the dad had done it, I kind of interpreted his, his, um...

• 1:21:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, his, his, uh, computer message saying, um, you're the only one who deserves to still be here. I was like, maybe, maybe he's killing them thinking that he's doing them a favor and he thinks his son is a piece of shit and he's like, you're the only one who still deserves to be on this shitty planet.

• 1:21:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, like he means it in the negative.

• 1:21:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, not like you're the only good enough person to not get killed. Maybe you're the only one who's not good.

• 1:22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's crazy.

• 1:22:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, but, but doesn't it seem very like classic narcissist where you would write a fake letter talking about how great you were?

• 1:22:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, yeah, to me, it's too much.

• 1:22:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that the dad would be like, I'm gonna murder everybody. We've all been in this house together doing god knows what terrible shit.

• 1:22:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I pick you as my favorite. Everybody else is going down.

• 1:22:27Georgia Hardstark?

  To me, it's too much, it's too stupid that the son would write that. Like, it should, he should have written some, I think he would have known to write something more.

• 1:22:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but he was a 20-year-old paper boy.

• 1:22:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but it sounds like he planned this whole murder out because he also did a thing where he made sure his whole family, he like called a family meeting the night before. Just kinda, it seems like what people are explaining that as is that he, um, was trying to make sure everyone was in the house that night and the next day.

• 1:22:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:22:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I don't think there's any way he didn't do it.

• 1:23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, also because, sorry, did you say any of the accusations about incest or molestation were proven?

• 1:23:11Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they, they couldn't be proven, but it's brought up a lot. There's a couple people who can corroborate it, but they never did at trial. So who knows how reliable those are.

• 1:23:24Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, that's like, it's the perfect thing, it's the perfect like ingredient to add into this for confusion.

• 1:23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, but I don't think he said it. So it doesn't make any, you know, it's not like he's the one.

• 1:23:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that wasn't his story.

• 1:23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It wasn't his story.

• 1:23:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:23:39Georgia Hardstark?

  He was also never like, my dad is an asshole. I can't believe he killed my whole family, which you think you would be saying.

• 1:23:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Or I can't believe my dad did this. I would never think my dad was capable of this or anything along those lines. He never did that.

• 1:23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Or do you use that to justify why he, why he killed his dad? His dad killed the family, but he killed the dad.

• 1:23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. No, there's, yeah, because you think that, I, yeah.

• 1:24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But you, he would be painting himself as a hero.

• 1:24:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:24:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's now, yeah, so I, I, there's like a, I can't believe there's a huge argument about whether or not this kid did it.

• 1:24:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fascinating.

• 1:24:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know what, you know how they'll find out?

• 1:24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  How?

• 1:24:18Karen Kilgariff?

  If he kills somebody else, now that he's free.

• 1:24:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know, maybe he won't, maybe he was 20 and fucking pissed.

• 1:24:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It was like, it was like he was going through a reggae phase, except for murder.

• 1:24:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe he was really into hacky sack for a short period of time and then he, he grew some white drugs, went nuts.

• 1:24:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Except for murder.

• 1:24:38Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I'm ready to be an accountant.

• 1:24:40Georgia Hardstark?

  He seems like a celeb, like a celebrity too, like a local celebrity.

• 1:24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, cause I mean, what's better to talk about than something that has everything? Murder, incest.

• 1:24:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's real ugly.

• 1:24:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't, gloves, ladies glasses.

• 1:24:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Cosby sweaters.

• 1:24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Cosby sweaters.

• 1:24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, and I can attest to this, I saw some photos.

• 1:24:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm, this is to me staircase level.

• 1:25:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Fascinating.

• 1:25:02Georgia Hardstark?

  This is very staircasey. Oh, speaking of, I went to a party over the weekend, remember Erin, Erin Dewey Lennox? Who had her, we talked about how she had her prom photo on the stair, on the staircase.

• 1:25:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:25:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Because she was friends with that family.

• 1:25:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:25:15Georgia Hardstark?

  She sent me straight over the weekend. She said, in that episode, you said that I believed the eagle, the owl theory. And she's like, and I fucking don't.

• 1:25:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:25:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I was like, I'm so sorry.

• 1:25:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it.

• 1:25:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So she doesn't.

• 1:25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought she was gonna be like, and I have the blow poke. Here it is. No, no. Oh, that's amazing. Okay, that makes me feel better because the owl theory is absolute fucking insanity. And is not real.

• 1:25:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And she is friends with a sister who is like alienated herself from the rest of the family, who believes he didn't do it.

• 1:25:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I hope I'm not, I hope she's okay with me. Well, we, you just said every single name she has.

• 1:25:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, she's a very funny comedian and everyone should go to her shows.

• 1:25:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And also she probably would have told you, if she was mad about the owl theory, she would have told you she was mad about the name thing.

• 1:26:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe I'll text her after this and be like, we cool?

• 1:26:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's call this episode, it's going to be edited so much that it's going to be 11 minutes long.

• 1:26:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, totally. It's now, if you're not listening to an episode that's at least an hour and 20 minutes, you're listening to the wrong, you're listening to a very edited.

• 1:26:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You're listening to, uh, yeah, a reject episode.

• 1:26:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oh, I also met a girl who.

• 1:26:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm just gonna make this short.

• 1:26:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Her photos, stalking photos, were found at the BTK crime scene.

• 1:26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  What, what, what, what?

• 1:26:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Her name is Karen Southern. She's a fucking YouTube star. She's a sweet angel, awesome person. And she was like casually, we were like chatting and I, you know, the murder podcast got mentioned and she's like, "Oh, I have a weird, I have a story. It's not that big of a deal." And she's like, he was, she went to the church where he was a security guard.

• 1:26:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and he had pictures of her?

• 1:26:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. She was like 16 and they had to call her at college and they were like, "Are you still alive?"

• 1:27:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:27:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god.

• 1:27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And I was like, "How is this, you just, you just won my life."

• 1:27:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You, you might as well just said to me, like, "I, I met fucking Julia Roberts."

• 1:27:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:27:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, and did she lose her shit?

• 1:27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know if she lost her shit. She's like, "I never spoke to him. He, he wasn't like a creep." He, he chaperoned the prom.

• 1:27:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh no.

• 1:27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So there were photos of her like from prom.

• 1:27:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, but, so she was like one of his favorites?

• 1:27:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess, not favorite enough, thank god.

• 1:27:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, for real.

• 1:27:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's crazy.

• 1:27:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:27:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, when they told her she was in college, so she was like 16 when the pictures were taken, but then like 18 or older?

• 1:27:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god, that's crazy. Wait, has he been put to death yet or is he on death row?

• 1:27:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think he's been put to death, has he?

• 1:27:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think so.

• 1:27:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It'll, we'll edit it out if he has. So if you're listening to this, he's not dead.

• 1:27:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, this is one of the more professional podcasts that you are going to hear on iTunes.

• 1:28:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You're welcome.

• 1:28:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, look, we're, we wanna be professional for you.

• 1:28:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's what we're all about.

• 1:28:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We, yeah, this is who we are. It's what we do.

• 1:28:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm proud that this episode I didn't say the word like 900 times.

• 1:28:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I, you know what I wanna stop doing that I noticed halfway through and you'll notice that my voice isn't doing it? I have vocal fry a lot.

• 1:28:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Where like I talk like this, where I like, you know, they're telling a story and all sorts of like.

• 1:28:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I was doing that the whole time last episode.

• 1:28:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Why do I do that?

• 1:28:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we lay down a lot.

• 1:28:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true.

• 1:28:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true. We are, Georgia is often just flat on her back.

• 1:28:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I really am.

• 1:28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  The entire episode.

• 1:28:34Georgia Hardstark?

  If I didn't have to sit up to look at my computer, usually I print my notes so I can like hold them over my face.

• 1:28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I wouldn't get up. This entire time.

• 1:28:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I've read a couple of the negative, a couple of the negative, of course, I have to read those, but, well, no, it's just things like that of like, it's two valley girls making jokes about murders or whatever, where I'm like, I get that, I hear that.

• 1:28:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We are from California and we make fun of murder, but that's not all it is.

• 1:29:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And we have kind of valley girl speech impediments.

• 1:29:02Georgia Hardstark?

  We totally, we've lived in our life for a very long time.

• 1:29:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But we're also not afraid to lecture you on how bad we think rape is.

• 1:29:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:29:09Karen Kilgariff?

  We might really have to edit the top of that off.

• 1:29:12Georgia Hardstark?

  All of together?

• 1:29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Huh. Should we just start over right now?

• 1:29:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, thanks for listening. This is, I'm George and this is Karen. Hey Karen, how was your week?

• 1:29:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God, what a great week. Fun.

• 1:29:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Positive.

• 1:29:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Super positive.

• 1:29:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, I, everything is, I like everything.

• 1:29:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a good thing everything has been solved.

• 1:29:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, things are great and nothing's bad.

• 1:29:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 1:29:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Boo.

• 1:29:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, let's end this two ways.

• 1:29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:29:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Because people have been asking for this one.

• 1:29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we missed that.

• 1:29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:29:43Karen Kilgariff?

  So we're going to end it by saying, guys, stay sexy.

• 1:29:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't get murdered. Also, Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:29:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, what else?

• 1:29:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks for listening, you guys. What? And? Elvis?

• 1:30:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And can we get the final statement?

• 1:30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks for listening. Rate, review, subscribe.

• 1:30:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Bye.

• 1:30:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye.

• 1:30:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Whew. Wow.

• 1:30:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Are there updates for this, this story?

• 1:30:20Georgia Hardstark?

  A little bit. This, this is one of those cases that I think still come on those lists of like, the biggest mystery, what actually happened. It's kind of become this like folklore almost in New Zealand, but, you know, it's been 30 years since the Bain family murders. As I stated in the episode, David Bain was convicted of the five murders of his family members who were, after proving a number of errors in his trial, David's convictions were overturned and he was released after serving almost 13 years in prison.

• 1:30:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:30:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And a clarification, since it wasn't totally clear in the episode, David was ordered a retrial, which happened in 2009, but a second jury ended up acquitting him on all five murder charges. So it's been overturned, he's been released and acquitted. So it kind of... Someone had to know what they were doing and like know what was going on and that you'd think he maybe actually didn't do it.

• 1:31:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and if that's the case, and he so he's wrongfully imprisoned and his whole family is dead.

• 1:31:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oy vey.

• 1:31:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's what a nightmare and how horrible.

• 1:31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:31:25Karen Kilgariff?

  This is like an episode where I feel like every fucking thing I'm saying sounds the tritest thing I've ever said in my life.

• 1:31:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, that's all, that's all you can say.

• 1:31:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Georgia Hardstark?

  So now he's in his 50s and he lives with his wife and children under a new name.

• 1:31:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:31:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And so to end this, this episode is the first time we end with both SSDGM and Elvis saying goodbye.

• 1:31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:31:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Monumental.

• 1:31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It took us 20 episodes to kind of work out the kinks. We're starting to get this thing on its feet.

• 1:31:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, get a tagline.

• 1:31:56Karen Kilgariff?

  We're starting to tell full stories. We're starting to do all our homework.

• 1:32:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but so 2020, as everyone knows who loves the show 2020, it's a perfect title.

• 1:32:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 1:32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  But there could be other ones. Georgia said Child's Art Project, which is her describing the cross stitch that she started for me.

• 1:32:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  She was giving me, what, did you just not give it to me?

• 1:32:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's still in here somewhere like halfway done. I definitely didn't finish it.

• 1:32:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, thanks.

• 1:32:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I got really into cross stitching. Turns out when you cross stitch, you can be really good at cross stitching or you can have cats and you but you can't have both. So I learned that lesson, you know?

• 1:32:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That makes a lot of sense.

• 1:32:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then the other title could be Swimming Above All, which Karen talks about doing a somersault off the side of a pool, hitting your head and then going back to swimming afterwards because Swimming Above All, I like that one.

• 1:32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I truly have never hurt my head that badly and I was just like, just power through it. It doesn't matter, head injury. Just keep, keep going, keep going.

• 1:33:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, and that's what we, who we have done for the past eight and a half years.

• 1:33:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:33:05Georgia Hardstark?

  This has been like a head injury.

• 1:33:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep, just keep going, keep going. All right. Well, thanks, everybody, for listening. You know, be here every Wednesday with us while we kind of muck through our old episodes, our old victories and mistakes. They really, they contain multitudes.

• 1:33:24Georgia Hardstark?

  This is like a bog, and we're like digging out the bog bodies.

• 1:33:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, there's bodies, but then there's also a beautiful golden chalice.

• 1:33:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Treasures in the bog.

• 1:33:34Karen Kilgariff?

  OK, stay sexy.

• 1:33:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:33:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:33:45Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:34:14Speaker 02

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