Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 119: Fingers Everywhere

It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 119: Fingers Everywhere. Georgia covered William Heirens, the “Lipstick Killer,” and Karen discussed the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. Tune in for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode! Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Now with updated sources and photos: https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. The Exactly Right podcast network provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics, including true crime, comedy, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 1:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:49Georgia Hardstark?

  To Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

• 1:51Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 with all new insights and case updates and topical cultural references.

• 1:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Today, we're rewinding to episode 119, which we named Fingers Everywhere.

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode originally came out on May 3, 2018.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's listen to the intro of episode 119.

• 2:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, hello and welcome.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi, welcome.

• 2:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you saying that to me?

• 2:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm reiterating.

• 2:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, because welcome to you.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Welcome to you, Karen. Welcome everyone to My Favorite Murder, the podcast.

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the podcast where we talk about true crime, you know, and everything else under the sun.

• 2:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything we can even imagine.

• 2:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God, we're getting into a lot of religious stuff lately. Spirituality.

• 2:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm more spiritual than religious. I'm not religious, but I'm more spiritual. No, but I hear people saying that on dates behind me at restaurants all the time, and I just want to punch them in the face.

• 2:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd love to sit behind a date where they were like, I am strictly religious and I think spirituality is wrong.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm here for the rules and the books, and I don't care about the soul or the feeling.

• 3:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I would be relieved to hear that. In LA, you'll never hear that in LA.

• 3:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I witness, I feel like in LA, I witness so many Tinder dates or like coffee meetups.

• 3:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And I get, I get so involved.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, like how?

• 3:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I'm a humongous eavesdropper. I'll fucking eavesdrop on anybody.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Me too. Well, how can you not? Like, it's not eavesdropping. It's listening to the conversation going on. That is going on way too loudly.

• 3:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Always, because it's a city full of actors. And everybody thinks they should be heard.

• 3:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:39Karen Kilgariff?

  But then they're talking about stuff.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That they think is unique and interesting. Like us, for example, on this podcast. Like true crime.

• 3:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Why talk about it if you're not going to record it?

• 3:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Like this murder.

• 3:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what makes me? It's because I have a problem with vulnerability. So when two people are sitting in front of each other, trying to present themselves as here's my most interesting, it makes me want to vomit into the closest garbage can for seven hours.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry, the garbage can? Because there's also a composting can, and there's also a recycling. And there's also, the coffee place I go to has an area to put your like coffee sleeve in to recycle the sleeve.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 4:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I think has to be definitely against health codes. But I do it anyways.

• 4:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, well, my, first of all, my vomit would definitely go into composting.

• 4:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's just going to churn up all that mulch.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Plastic bottles.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  The acid is going to break down all of those eggshells.

• 4:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Because every place you go into here has three bins. And you sit there and stare at them. And I'm going on a tirade. Go on.

• 4:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Three bins, 17 actors. Everybody's trying to hook up.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And, um, yeah. And then if you want to reuse a coffee sleeve. Wait, now, is that voluntary? Or are they just going to reuse those coffee sleeves and you don't know about it as the person buying what you think is a new coffee with a new sleeve?

• 4:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet you think it's new, and it's not new.

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You think that's true?

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  With their dirty fingers all over it?

• 5:05Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 5:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd rather burn my fingers.

• 5:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Your fingers are where you put, you put your fingers everywhere.

• 5:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I put my fingers everywhere.

• 5:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you know? Do you know?

• 5:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You know that about me.

• 5:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm confronting you. That's how I meant that sentence. God damn you.

• 5:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You've been on tour with me.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I meant to say, stop putting your fingers everywhere.

• 5:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit. Okay. All right.

• 5:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Speaking of which, and I'm sorry for the segue. Someone started a hashtag, #HotForHoles. And it is wrong. It's filthy. It is, it's making us look bad.

• 5:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Say what they mean, though.

• 5:40Karen Kilgariff?

  The funniest thing I've ever seen.

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Hot for Holes is obviously our love of our lives.

• 5:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Paul Holes.

• 5:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Paul Holes.

• 5:46Karen Kilgariff?

  The criminologist who solved the Golden State Killer, among many people.

• 5:50Georgia Hardstark?

  But you know, he would defer. Oh, no. Oh, no, no, no. I didn't do anything. You know, anyway. Someone made like a, it looks like a science project poster board thing of just photos of him, cut out photos of him all over it. I should.

• 6:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I believe you can find that under the hashtag, #HotForHoles.

• 6:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet you fucking can.

• 6:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He's wearing all different kinds of Oakley blades and all different sun settings.

• 6:13Georgia Hardstark?

  But someone else made a really good point. They posted a photo of him. They saw him in an old episodes of like Forensic Files and said, he's aged well because he doesn't look so hot as a young man.

• 6:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Bullshit.

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I agree. He looks, I would have, I would have fucking punched his Puka Shell-wearing face in the fucking face. Like, he just didn't look that hot.

• 6:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not into early Paul Holes?

• 6:36Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm into, I'm into later stages. Like, he looks like he's been hanging out on, what's the island with the tequila with the guy who sings?

• 6:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Hawaii?

• 6:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 6:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Margaritaville, the island?

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. No, no, no, the one.

• 6:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Stevens Island, Margaritaville?

• 6:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Stevens Island. You know, the one with the.

• 6:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Cabo?

• 6:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 6:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think that's an island.

• 6:57Karen Kilgariff?

  We got to go on tour to Mexico.

• 6:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Edit this out.

• 7:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, he definitely has vacationed along Baja California. But here, I have to say, first of all, I was talking to my sister on the phone this morning, and she called Paul Holes, the Indiana Jones of criminology. And she, I couldn't stop laughing. And she goes, I'm not kidding. I like wrote "I love you" on my eyelids as I was watching this interview. Because he gave, he gave some hour-long interview on KTVU, which is our channel too, our home station.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  No way.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Up in Paloma, which we grew up watching. There's only one too. And so she.

• 7:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 7:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Called me this morning to give me like the, basically the lowdown.

• 7:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That is the best description of anyone I've ever heard in my life.

• 7:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Am I right?

• 7:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Laura.

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Laura did it. Laura. Also, it's funny because Laura is not interested in true crime whatsoever. She's just taking this ride with us.

• 7:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 7:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But so she like gets into it because she knows we go crazy.

• 7:53Georgia Hardstark?

  My sister too. I don't think she gives two shits, but she's like happy that, that I'm finally getting my need for attention met. So she doesn't have to deal with.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  We really are.

• 8:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Me dating shitty guys anymore. Yeah.

• 8:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever wanted more attention in your life? Oh, my God.

• 8:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway, salute to Paul Holes.

• 8:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Speaking of what? I don't know. Pick one. DNA?

• 8:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, go DNA.

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So Stephen just sent us, as we walked into class, that's what I'm calling this today, a link of, so people are losing their shit because it comes out that they found the Golden State Killer by getting the familial DNA off some fucking person that was like, I want to know what I am. You know, like from fucking wherever.

• 8:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Just, just tell yourself you're Dutch Spanish.

• 8:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, whatever you think you are. I learned this by submitting my DNA to 23andMe. You're whatever you think you are. What else is there?

• 8:50Georgia Hardstark?

  So he, so someone was like, what am I? And they sent their DNA in.

• 8:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 8:55Georgia Hardstark?

  To a half-rate fucking company that didn't have the protection that 23andMe has and all these other, and ancestry.com has that are like, we won't give your fucking DNA away.

• 9:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, they actually said, though, I read an article where they had in their disclaimer, it said, if you are afraid you may have committed a crime or you don't want to be searched, like, we, we do not keep these DNA profiles out of that. So don't submit your. And like, that's always been their customer service thing.

• 9:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It really annoyed me that like last week, so I took, I took myself off Twitter because I just couldn't handle it anymore. But so the last shit I saw was like, you know, what's, what does this mean for our public safety? Blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, it wasn't a big fucking company. It's not like a big deal. It's not everyone. Calm fucking down, everyone. Let's talk about this murderer and what he did instead. That'd be great. So, but they're going to run Zodiacs, Stephen told us, DNA through this company.

• 9:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that'll be fun. No, they, I saw that article. They said they aren't saying what company they're running.

• 10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good. Okay. Because I was like, someone's going to kill them. Some old man is about to kill himself tonight.

• 10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 10:06Georgia Hardstark?

  When he sees that.

• 10:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, let's keep our eye out for any.

• 10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  How old would he be now? In his late 90s?

• 10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that would be exciting. It would be very cool. I agree with the people who are worried about there have to be restrictions or there has to be privacy. If you are spitting on a piece of cotton and sending it to some company because you want to find out just how Dutch you are, fuck you. You're on it. You're then you're in the mix.

• 10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's too late. You're done.

• 10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, you know, like if they, they have to have probable cause. You know, our boy, Paul Holes lined it up so that it's like this thing, if they were going to do it and get the answer from a certain, in a certain way. And I understand how outsiders don't trust this. I trust Paul Holes. He did it by the book because they don't want it to fall apart in court.

• 11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you know Sally, yeah, exactly. And you know Sally Hole, or Sally Holes?

• 11:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. Who's Sally Holes?

• 11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I was gonna say that you know Sally in HR at whatever fucking DNA company who like Paul Holes came up to her and was like, I'm gonna tell you why you're gonna do this. Like, I need this. And she was just like, hello? There was no chance. And then she wrote Mrs. Sally Holes over and over again. That's what I was gonna say.

• 11:24Karen Kilgariff?

  My favorite, my favorite thing is so many people are now writing dirty jokes. Like, I got one the other day where I was like, well, I thought I got, I thought I was being trolled. Whereas like, I'd like to investigate some of these holes where I'm like, oh, I get it. People are really experimenting with their blue comedy with their, with this specific combination of nouns.

• 11:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, all we need to do is add him to, add him to Karen's list of men she loves with last names that are?

• 11:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Nouns.

• 11:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Nouns.

• 11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. It's just, we've got Jimmy Buttons.

• 11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Buttons.

• 11:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We've got Paul Onions.

• 11:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Onions.

• 11:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Now we've got Mr. Holes.

• 12:00Georgia Hardstark?

  There's one other one. Someone made a really good, like, Jackets!

• 12:05Karen Kilgariff?

  But Jackets was a bad guy.

• 12:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't love that guy.

• 12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, he's one of yours. You know, he's still one of yours.

• 12:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He is one of the characters in my, in my universe, but he's not canon. Oh, what I was gonna talk about is yesterday in Los Angeles, we had a high-speed chase.

• 12:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, I didn't see that.

• 12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  With a Winnebago. And it was nuts.

• 12:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Explain that to me. How high-speed does this? Like, what is high-speed definition? Because?

• 12:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, think about it. In LA, you can't fucking get anywhere over 35 miles an hour. So there was a Winnebago going 55 up, I think it did a 5134 170 transition.

• 12:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you can't do that on more than 10 miles an hour the whole time?

• 12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, this thing was flying up the freeway. I saw Brandy Posey, our friend from the great podcast Lady to Lady, she tweeted it, we've got a live one, and then posted the link. And I was at the mall and I pulled out my earbuds, sat down and watched the live feed at the mall because I was like, what?

• 13:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I did not know you were that kind of girl.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I love a, I love a high-speed chase.

• 13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  They worry me. I don't like them. They worry me.

• 13:18Karen Kilgariff?

  They're worrisome. That's part of what I love. Like, I can't take my eyes off it. And Stephen and I were just talking about, they're, they're, they happen in LA a lot.

• 13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Because we've got a lot of freeways and a lot of action. But it turned out, so my, my friend Dan Telfer, who's also a comic.

• 13:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's, I like him on Twitter.

• 13:35Karen Kilgariff?

  He's hilarious.

• 13:35Georgia Hardstark?

  A lot.

• 13:36Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a great writer. He used to work on At Midnight and he's just cool. And he's listened to us from the beginning.

• 13:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, Dan.

• 13:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and supported. So anyway, he got in.

• 13:46Georgia Hardstark?

  What if he was unsupportive?

• 13:47Karen Kilgariff?

  He's listened to us, highly critical of most of what we do.

• 13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Hates us.

• 13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No, he, he, he was in mine and Brandy's conversation and then at one point sent the follow-up article about what had happened. And it's very dark because it's this guy who was a registered sex offender, grabbing sex with children under the age of 14.

• 14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop it!

• 14:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And he was in that Winnebago with his three-year-old son and 11-month-old daughter. They had been, they were from, I want to say they were from Washington State or Oregon State, and they were down in San Diego, I believe. And there, and something happened and he took off with the kids.

• 14:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 14:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And he was on the phone with his mother and his wife the whole time. And he ended up getting arrested. The kids are safe.

• 14:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a pedophile and he has a mother and a wife? That's not fair.

• 14:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sorry. Can I do a sidebar?

• 14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  For, from that story. I had just gotten a coffee at Starbucks in the mall. And as I was ordering my coffee, the girl I was talking to, I saw her writing, you know, Starbucks, they write your order on the, on the dirty sleeve.

• 14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I say before you say anything, I know the other side of this story because she posted it on Facebook.

• 14:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's, then I was gonna tell you the other side of the story because my friend Vicky, as I was shopping, sent me what she posted.

• 15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay. So you're in, okay, so you're in Starbucks, you see a chick writing a thing down on the dirty sleeve.

• 15:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I see her and I'm like, giving my order, which is a little bit confusing.

• 15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  What is it?

• 15:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a double-tall, one-pump Mocha.

• 15:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's, as people are always like, what? But it's like they put too much, if it's that small, they put too much.

• 15:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You want a double, you want it not that big, because you don't want that much milk. And you want only one pump of Mocha, please.

• 15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a nice suggestion of Mocha, not, don't drown me. So she's writing it down, but I see that she does all the, you know, M and one and all. And then I see her write SSD. Then she does a weird thing and then throws it away. And I was about to go, wait, were you gonna, and I was gonna do the funny confrontation thing. But then she, we, I don't know, something else happened. There's, it was, there was a lot happening.

• 15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So I didn't confront her. I thought it'd be funny, but there was a bunch of people in line, whatever. Then, so in her new one, she just rewrites the order again and sends it. Then, the order goes through, her boss, I'm standing over there waiting, and then her, her boss or the person making it, and I found it was her boss after, goes, do you want whipped cream on this? And I said, no, thanks. At which she, which the person who was ringing me up already asked, and I said no. But she didn't remember to put it on the second sleeve. So then she gets yelled at for not putting it on the sleeve. And I was about to go, again, about to, but didn't do it. I was about to go, oh, no, she asked

• 16:35Karen Kilgariff?

  me. I just, she, you know, like, she did ask me that. Then I was like, I can't get involved. Then high-speed chase, I'm drawn away. Then my friend Vicky Ernst, who lives in New York, because that was the funniest part, and was far away from me, she, she sends me a text that goes, I don't understand what your life is now. And then it's the Facebook post from Rachel.

• 16:59Georgia Hardstark?

  What does it say?

• 17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  She says, I normally don't get rattled when a celebrity comes to Starbucks, but it's LA and it happens.

• 17:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No brag, no brag.

• 17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  No brag. Yeah, now reading this sounds stupid, but she basically said, I lost my mind on the inside. My hands were shaking. That's not true. I didn't see any handshaking. I was so nervous, tried to sneak an SSD GM on the cup, but couldn't. Worst of all, my supervisor chastised me in front of her. Embarrassment level 10,000. Well, that was my Tuesday. Maybe next time I'll be cooler. Rachel, you couldn't have been cooler. There was no indication on your face or anywhere that you knew who I was or anything, to the point where, when I saw you starting to write SSD, I didn't want to be the asshole who's like, are you writing my thing?

• 17:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I love the hug.

• 17:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So I just didn't say anything. That's how cool you were. So don't worry about it. You'll be able to handle it.

• 17:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Next time, just give Karen a free coffee and it'll be fine.

• 17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Next, I always appreciate people are just like, ugh, like, I'm not reacting to you whatsoever. But, and thank you for calling me a celebrity. What a joy, Rachel. What a joy.

• 18:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Between that and the high-speed chase, fuck.

• 18:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I had a power day at the mall.

• 18:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Power day.

• 18:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Power day. I was just gonna say a quick corrections corner.

• 18:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, great.

• 18:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I made fun of the posting that was on Next, the Nextdoor app. Lots of responses about the Nextdoor app.

• 18:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Hilarious. I mean, there is so much crazy hilarious stuff on there. People posted some really funny stuff. I made fun of somebody for posting raccoon in the daytime. We immediately got a response. Again, I'm going to get better about writing people's names down, but day of, oh, for a second, I thought Stephen was holding up a cue card that gave me the person's name. Somebody immediately responded, if you see a raccoon in the day, they probably have rabies.

• 18:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that word. And then, and then I will go ahead and say, call the non-emergency police number, not 911.

• 18:54Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Do not call 911 if you see a day raccoon. But don't approach, do not approach a day raccoon.

• 19:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You almost gave people rabies, Karen.

• 19:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I, if you got rabies, we want to hear about it. It's like Maury Povich. Do you have rabies and your boyfriend cheated on you?

• 19:13Georgia Hardstark?

  If they're in the fan cult, is there a forum of what we've done, how we've done you wrong?

• 19:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 19:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We want to, we want to know.

• 19:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that does exist, actually.

• 19:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Does it? Oh, shit.

• 19:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's all my current business.

• 19:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I got nothing. Should we get the fuck out of here? Stephen, who goes first? Well, last week was the Golden State Killer. But then, the week before, Karen went first. Okay.

• 19:35Karen Kilgariff?

  All right.

• 19:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You want to do over or you want me to go first? I want to go first.

• 19:38Karen Kilgariff?

  You go first!

• 19:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, great.

• 19:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're back. Karen, the birth of Hot for Holes. How do you feel?

• 19:50Karen Kilgariff?

  What a debacle. What a, what a cultural sinkhole that was. This is, I think this is a great example of us finding out how big our audience was.

• 20:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:04Karen Kilgariff?

  In, in a very real way. This and that crazy BuzzFeed meltdown about our book announcement, where all of a sudden people are getting like swarmed. There's all this reactivity. But this was like the best version of that.

• 20:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah. This put Paul Holes like front and center where he belongs in his tank top with his.

• 20:26Karen Kilgariff?

  With his fish tank and his, and his facts. You know what I mean?

• 20:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Karen Kilgariff?

  The real person that's about the facts of the case, please.

• 20:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And the brains, totally. It is very satisfying to watch that, even though it was embarrassing at the time because of the Hot for Holes itself.

• 20:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I know that it sounds dumb, but it's hard to remember that this is not a private conversation.

• 20:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Especially back then in my apartment. Like right now, I'm in my like little quote office. It's not an office. It's just a fucking room. But like, yeah, it's hard to remember that people are actually listening to this.

• 21:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. We don't hear from anybody.

• 21:04Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 21:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, except for in the Gmail. And if you have stories about Paul Holes, please write to us at [email protected].

• 21:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, this is also when you got recognized at the mall at Starbucks.

• 21:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 21:20Georgia Hardstark?

  When she wrote SSDGM on the cup.

• 21:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 21:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So like, that was the first, like, that was, was 2018. So like two years in, and it was like, just starting to happen regularly enough.

• 21:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 21:32Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 21:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And from the Fashion Square Mall, which was my home mall for so long.

• 21:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 21:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd gone to that mall. Some of the saddest Christmas shopping I've ever done was at that mall alone. And like, you know, when you have to go do an errand like that, so you just like put a bubble around yourself of like, no one will get in and I will get out alive.

• 21:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 21:54Karen Kilgariff?

  There were so many years of that kind of living. And so I really feel like that experience was a special, that person was very like seemingly emotional or whatever, but I was too, because I'm like, this changes the plot here. This is the, this is the material way you feel that you are no longer the loser you once were for many fucking years.

• 22:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. When it started happening regularly and a point where like I could expect it in a certain setting, like, you know, out to dinner here in LA or whatever, or like at an airport for some reason.

• 22:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, that was just this like, I just felt like this huge shift.

• 22:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 22:35Georgia Hardstark?

  In my life completely.

• 22:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. That's like when Lizzie and I were at Twain's or whatever that diner is on the corner. And just, I was just talking shit. And then the girl and the, the only other people were in the booth behind us. And the girl comes up after, it's like, I love your podcast. So I was like, did I use names? What was I just saying? Why was I saying any of that? Fucking watch your mouth.

• 22:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Privacy.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing about that. And this is the lamest kind of complaining or whatever, but it is a weird thing to then later have that experience. So then later tell people like, oh, don't keep your voice out. And then they're like, oh, really? Elvis Presley? Like, it, it makes you look like an asshole.

• 23:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah. Or like change names or change information.

• 23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 23:23Georgia Hardstark?

  This is when I found out about you loving car chases.

• 23:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. There really was a period of time, and maybe it's because all of journalism has been suspended in this country, but there really was that local news breaking into television shows to show you a criminal just trying to get away from the LAPD. And it is.

• 23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a very LA thing, I think, because we're so car centric here. And, you know, there's so many people that like, of course, there's going to be a lot of criminals.

• 23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And a lot of car crime.

• 23:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I hate it.

• 23:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it. You, you hate a high speed chase?

• 23:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. I get so nervous about car accidents and I just don't, and they never fucking work.

• 24:03Karen Kilgariff?

  No, they're, well.

• 24:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Never work.

• 24:05Karen Kilgariff?

  They almost never work. They're so fucking dangerous. And like, there's lately, there's been a couple where on the news live, there's like a horrible, you know, kill, killing everybody collision that like.

• 24:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I can't watch that.

• 24:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That isn't, it's not the same as that kind of OJ level, oh, my God, what's happening on the 405 vibe.

• 24:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Right.

• 24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It used to be fun and it can't, it's not fun anymore.

• 24:27Georgia Hardstark?

  They really ruined car chases.

• 24:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But I was just gonna say, remember the car chase that ended right behind my house and to localize my old house?

• 24:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 24:37Karen Kilgariff?

  They did get away.

• 24:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 24:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That was the one I saw where they did, where I was like, I can't believe this is happening.

• 24:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Did I ever tell you about, I, this is so weird, but there's a short time in my life where I lived in Panorama City, which is like deep, deep valley. Like, nobody fucking lives there. It's very weird.

• 24:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Was your apartment hot all the time?

• 24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It was so hot there. It was disgusting. And in the middle of the night, there was a car that drove into a parked, a bunch of parked cars, like right outside our house. We go outside and X and I. And these two dudes are getting out of the car and they're like, oh, we'll be right back. Cause there's all these neighbors. And they clearly had stolen the car and then drunk drove it into a bunch of parked cars and just fucking casually walking away.

• 25:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, thank you so much for your support. We'll be right back.

• 25:25Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll be right, yeah. They like, like really just like good naturedly pieced out.

• 25:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And it worked?

• 25:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they were gone. I mean, I don't know if they were got caught, but like the cops weren't there by.

• 25:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia's like, citizen's arrest.

• 25:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Just sauntering away from the stolen car, car accident.

• 25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Another weird thing about like, you know, if we're gonna go on the theme of reflecting on old true crime, is the, the DNA conversation back then versus now.

• 25:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Like the, oh no, is this gonna be a privacy issue thing?

• 25:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Or the, the reason everyone, like the, the reason the informed few were so keyed up about data privacy is now making sense to everybody.

• 26:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Right.

• 26:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Where people, you know, identities being stolen, all the things that no one really got before. So then it's like, oh yeah, and then they have your DNA.

• 26:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I never, it's funny. I never put my like results into Jedmatch, which is the one they use for catching, you know, for, um, what's it called? Genetic genealogy.

• 26:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 26:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I just like, something made me stop. And I don't know what it is. I, partly that I'm like, there's no way anyone in my bloodline, in my fucking like pacifist Jewish bloodline is a serial killer. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like if I were a little more mainstream in my bloodline, I would do it. But like, it's, it, the chances ha, I can't be high. Or am I being naive?

• 26:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Or are you afraid you're gonna get arrested now for shoplifting at Thrifty Drugstore?

• 26:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. For that, when I did that when I was a kid.

• 26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Your lip balms. What were they called? The, um, lip smackers?

• 27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Bonnie Bell. Yeah.

• 27:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Had to have that Dr. Pepper. Okay. Now let's get into Georgia's story about William Heirens, the Lipstick Killer.

• 27:18Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. This is one that I hope you didn't do at a live show.

• 27:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, let's find out.

• 27:26Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the Lipstick Killer, William Heirens. Heirens. What's that face?

• 27:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm trying to remember.

• 27:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think you did. Okay, great.

• 27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  She answers her own question. Okay, great. It's exactly how I did it on a tip.

• 27:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Lip by the thing of, of like, it looked like I have something bad to tell you, you know?

• 27:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's, here's how I can't tell anymore. Cause we've gone to a bunch of different cities.

• 27:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And we've looked up all these people. And we've researched these people and then chosen not to do them. Or whatever. So.

• 27:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So we didn't do it a bunch of, yeah, I don't think we did it.

• 28:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, cool.

• 28:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And then there was a time before we, Stephen was with us, that we did Chicago, a couple of Chicago shows. So I can't ask Stephen, cause he wouldn't know. I don't, fuck it.

• 28:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck it all.

• 28:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And once our fucking biography comes out, then we'll.

• 28:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also William Heirens is a super famous, is that the correct pronunciation? I've, I've heard of him.

• 28:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And you've seen a million photos of this too.

• 28:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 28:25Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks, the old photos of him, he looks scary. And you're like, oh, that guy's a murderer. Cause you've seen his photo a million times?

• 28:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 28:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Is he? We don't know. Let's find out. Here we go.

• 28:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 28:35Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. So the lipstick murders started in Chicago just after the end of World War II. So World War II's over, everyone's fucking stoked. It's like a great time in America, all this bullshit. Um, so the first murder took place on, so we're at June 5th, 1945. Forty-three-year-old Josephine Ross is found dead in her apartment by her daughter. Her apartment's close to Wrigley Field in Chicago, obviously. Josephine had been repeatedly stabbed and then her body had been washed by the killer. And all her wounds, this is fucking weird, had been covered with tape.

• 29:10Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 29:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Each of her stab wounds. So someone was like, oh, fuck, washes her. Like, that sounds like some serial killer shit, right?

• 29:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 29:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Washes her, covers each wound with tape and then places her back into bed. Um, her head had also been wrapped with one of her skirts, almost like can't look at your face time. But this is a time when they didn't have, you know, criminal profiling or like serial killer wasn't even a term yet.

• 29:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 29:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so, and she had been washed, but her, the investigator still found a dark like hair clutched in her hand. Like she had ripped his fucking hair out of his head as he attacked her. The blood spatter department, it had been ransacked, um, but they, nothing was missing. And police found no fingerprints and no obvious motive. And they assumed that she had surprised an intruder, but nothing had been stolen. So I don't know about that. Josephine's murder at the time didn't even make front pages, the front page news. And at the time, there were five big Chicago papers led by the Chicago Tribune. And they all competed for circulation, especially post-war when less shit was going on. But it didn't even make the front page. About six months later on December.

• 30:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Crazy.

• 30:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, right?

• 30:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's super crazy. Also, just the, the detail alone of the tape.

• 30:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Tape.

• 30:24Karen Kilgariff?

  If that was in the newspaper, a million people would go crazy about, about that. Yeah.

• 30:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope.

• 30:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Nuts.

• 30:30Georgia Hardstark?

  About six months later, on December 10th, 1945, a 32-year-old woman, she's a stenographer and she's a former Navy wave, forgot to look that up, um, who had served during World War II. Her name is Frances Brown. She's found slumped in her bathtub in her apartment at the Pine Grove Hotel in Chicago. Her, she had been shot in the head and, but this is horrible, a bread knife had been driven sideways through her neck.

• 30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  With such force that the blade had emerged on the other side.

• 31:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 31:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 31:03Georgia Hardstark?

  She was nude and just like Josephine, she had been washed after being murdered, but he left her at the side of the bathtub for some reason. And her head was wrapped in towels.

• 31:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 31:15Georgia Hardstark?

  So it was like kind of a similar thing. And again, the apartment had been clear, had been wiped clean of fingerprints. But this time, someone had left a message on the wall of the apartment, written in lipstick. And it said, in like crazy person writing,

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It said, "For heaven's sake, catch me before I kill. More, I cannot control myself." Do you want to see the photo?

• 31:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, please.

• 31:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, here you go. We'll put it up on our Instagram.

• 31:43Karen Kilgariff?

  This is like, I love when any story is, parallels the movie Seven.

• 31:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. It's exactly like that.

• 31:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's...

• 31:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't even think about that. Okay, here's, it's like, written like a crazy person.

• 31:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And we'll put it up on Twitter and all the places.

• 31:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You know why? Can I just say?

• 32:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, cuz-

• 32:01Karen Kilgariff?

  As a, as a handwriting analyst-

• 32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Expert, yeah.

• 32:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's combining capital letters, lowercase letters, and cursive.

• 32:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, the cursive part's creepy.

• 32:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Cursive L's in the middle of like a, like a regular block.

• 32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything about this says, "I don't know what the fuck is going on from second to second."

• 32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. Or, "Am I trying to make it look like I don't know what I'm doing from second to second?"

• 32:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I guess that's true, but it's very effective.

• 32:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 32:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't, like, a loose cursive L is very unnerving.

• 32:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and is it, some of the letters are like fucking Toys R Us style, like backward and forward, too?

• 32:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 32:42Karen Kilgariff?

  RRS. Like corn style backwards, just to upset you?

• 32:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Corn, yes.

• 32:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a, it's a-

• 32:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Read it, cuz it's like-

• 32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  "For heaven's sake, Curly Q, see, catch me."

• 32:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So the C is like a C-

• 32:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Basically a spiral.

• 32:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It almost looks like a lowercase cursive E.

• 33:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, that's exactly right.

• 33:03Karen Kilgariff?

  "Catch me, before, capital B, capital F, everything else lowercase. I kill, kill is in unconnected cursive, yeah."

• 33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It's all crazy. It's written in fucking lipstick.

• 33:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And then the press then goes fucking crazy for it.

• 33:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, no punctuation.

• 33:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And the other thing about this is that because, at the time, women used the term "for heaven's sake" a lot, they thought it might be a woman who'd done this.

• 33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 33:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Which everyone was like, "What are you fucking talking about?"

• 33:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's some, that's some poor theorizing.

• 33:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, everyone now is like, "What the fuck?" Okay. So, this note earned the killer the name "The Lipstick Killer" by the media, of course, who are now obsessed with it cuz they have a catchy name and two murders that are supposedly linked. Four weeks later, all right, so they're going crazy. They're like, "Who the fuck is this killer? We don't know." And at the time, it was kind of an innocent era, and so people are locking, doing the whole locking their doors for the first time thing. Then, four weeks later, at about 7:30 in the morning of January 7th, 1946, in a wealthy section in the north side of Chicago called Edgewater, it was discovered that six-year-old Suzanne Deggman was missing

• 34:22Georgia Hardstark?

  from her first floor bedroom.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa, did you say six-year-old?

• 34:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's this little fucking, sweet little blonde baby girl, young thing, is missing. Her window is open and a ladder is placed underneath it outside, so like someone had climbed in and taken her. When they search her room, police find a crumpled note, and this is another fucking psychotically written thing, and I have a photo for you. The note says, tells the family to prepare $20,000 ransom, not to notify the police or FBI, and to wait for a word from the kidnapper. But they didn't find it until after. So look at that fucking psychotic note.

• 35:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It's similarly written, right?

• 35:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 35:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of.

• 35:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's got the Curly Q E's, and, but also-

• 35:14Georgia Hardstark?

  But the E's are curly. I mean, it's an E, not a C. Like, I looked at them and I tried so hard to like, tell if they were connected or not.

• 35:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh, that police C is not the same.

• 35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I don't think it's the same.

• 35:26Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's still capitals and lowercase.

• 35:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. It's still a fucking crazy note.

• 35:31Karen Kilgariff?

  But not like bills, the L's and bills are not cursive. They're, they're not blending the cursive.

• 35:36Georgia Hardstark?

  To me, that note seems like it was written by someone uneducated. And the Lipstick Killer one looks like it was someone trying to seem crazy.

• 35:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's just my bullshit. Yeah, this looks like someone who, who doesn't, who didn't, who doesn't write well.

• 35:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and it doesn't, it doesn't look planned because it's so sloppy.

• 35:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's really sloppy and messy.

• 35:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It looks like it was hard to write, yeah.

• 35:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and words are misspelled, too, which the other one isn't. Okay. So they find that note, and then, on the reverse side is written, "Burn this for her safety." Right, okay. So by the evening of her disappearance, though, they received some, they received some hang-up calls about ransom, but they never, they never like go through and they never give details. And by that evening, police receive an anonymous phone call suggesting the police look in the sewers near the Deggman residence.

• 36:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-mm.

• 36:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this gets fucked up, ready?

• 36:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 36:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Only a block away from the Deggman home, they find the severed head of little Suzanne Deggman in a storm drain sewer.

• 36:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus Christ.

• 36:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. This is 1940 fucking six. Like shit like this does not happen.

• 36:47Karen Kilgariff?

  This is Chicago?

• 36:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 36:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's so awful. Then, they find Suzanne's right leg in a catch basin. They find her torso in another storm drain, and her left leg in another drain. Each piece is found further and further away from the home. Like, the person was just hiding them along the fucking way. And all the drains had cast iron manhole covers that weighed at least 110 pounds each.

• 37:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa.

• 37:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Is that heavy? That's heavy, right?

• 37:20Karen Kilgariff?

  110 pounds?

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I can-

• 37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's like picking up a fifth grader.

• 37:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I can bench like, pretty, you know?

• 37:28Karen Kilgariff?

  You could bench like a second grader.

• 37:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's awful, I'm sorry. This is, this, the whole fucking city goes crazy. This is not, this has not happened, little girls like this. Like, adults, people can deal with it. It's not even front page news.

• 37:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also, this is, the second you said this part, I think it, I'm positive I've read this, but when it comes to something, like when the details are that bad and gory-

• 37:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hard for us to do those at live shows because it's just so awful.

• 37:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why I was like, I bet we didn't do this because I would remember us talking about this.

• 38:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 38:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Cuz it's so quiet and sad and horrifying.

• 38:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and it just like, you're right, it was that time where because things were so, things were so, I mean, I feel like we are experiencing this societally, not to get too broad about it, but these days, we all know everything.

• 38:18Georgia Hardstark?

  We're desensitized.

• 38:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and we, and we're in it. We're in the mix, which I think is part of the reason this kind of true crime thing is like kicking up in the last 10 years so strongly is because it's like basically going, "I'm not gonna pretend anymore. This is real and it's happening and I wanna pay attention to it."

• 38:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:34Karen Kilgariff?

  But back then, this was like the, "The war is over. Buy a car, buy a house, get a wife, have two kids."

• 38:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 38:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Be white.

• 38:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You can be whatever you want, yeah, if you're white.

• 38:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And, yeah, so it's that, and everybody's kind of locked and focused on that and not letting go of it. So this is a real aberration.

• 38:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's also the time, and, and I think you can't tell this story without making it, that with making that a big part of it, what you just said, and also that, you know, it was of course the time, even in fucking Chicago, where children just walked around and were out all night, or no, out all day, did whatever they wanted. There was, you know, partying and-

• 39:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Throwing dice in alleys.

• 39:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Yeah, but there was, there was a lack of supervision because there wasn't a need for supervision because it was a, you know, a safer world.

• 39:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Supposedly, yeah.

• 39:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Supposedly a safer world.

• 39:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 39:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And it was, though, but, you know, then something like this happens and it just changes the fucking landscape.

• 39:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And, but, well, yeah, people can't tell themselves that lie anymore, essentially is what it is.

• 39:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And worst possible way to do it.

• 39:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So, they, they search an apartment building near the location where Suzanne's head was found, and they uncover, and somehow, this is fucking crazy that they found this to me, but whatever, a basement laundry room. And in there are tubs, cuz it was like, not, I was like, "Well, what about, why are there four tubs in there?" It's like, "Oh, no, they didn't have washing machines back then." It was, a tub is the laundry room.

• 40:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 40:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God. They find four tubs, and in the drains, they find blood.

• 40:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 40:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So they find, they think that Suzanne had been dismembered there. The press began to refer to this as the murder room. And that day, Chicago Mayor Edward Kelly also receives a note and it says, "This is to tell you how sorry I am not to not get old Dignan instead of his girl." So not to kill the dad instead of Suzanne, like I'd rather kill the dad.

• 40:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 40:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Roosevelt and the OPA made their own laws, why shouldn't I and a lot more? So this is what this means. At the time, Chicago was home to the largest stockyards in the nation of meat animals and shit. You know?

• 40:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 40:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Meat packing.

• 40:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Stockyards is all about steer.

• 40:55Georgia Hardstark?

  There you go.

• 40:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 40:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm from Orange County.

• 40:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, there was a nationwide meat packer strike going on at the time. And the Office of Price Administration, so the OPA, was their enemy. That's who they were fucking.

• 41:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 41:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Striking against.

• 41:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 41:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Suzanne Dignan's father was a senior executive with the wartime meat regulation board and had just recently, and so he was part of the OPA. And just recently, another OPA executive had received threats against his children.

• 41:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 41:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Also, a man involved with the black market, with black market meat, which sounds just horrifying.

• 41:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, no, but if you marinate it just right, you can barely taste.

• 41:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's good for your intestines. You wanna really put some meat on your chest.

• 41:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Old rotten meat that's been sitting out.

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So he, a man involved with the black, with black market meat, so basically a fucking, what's it, line crosser, what do they call them? Strike breaker?

• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Scab?

• 41:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Scab. Had recently been murdered by decapitation.

• 41:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 41:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So police considered the possibility that Suzanne's killer was a meat packer, obviously. Seems to make sense.

• 42:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, sure.

• 42:06Georgia Hardstark?

  About the dismemberment, the coroner's expert said, quote, "Not even the average doctor could be as skillful with the, with the dismemberment." You know, like those, there weren't any hacking marks, that sort of thing. And then he said, "It had to be a meat cutter." Like, everyone in town, and in this time of period, is like stirring some shit up without facts, like everyone's fucking doing it, including especially the media.

• 42:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, again, I feel like the time that existed before the internet existed, when you could immediately fact check, that it was just a glorious time for us liars, where you could just kinda say whatever, no one could check it. And if you were a person that was like talking to the media, so you're the mayor, you're somebody high in power, nobody would check it.

• 42:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You, you had, there was so much good faith.

• 42:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And the media and the fucking, this is the time when the media and the police were fucking besties. So the cops would wanna like get some shit out to be like, "We need to catch this person, hear some information."

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That could also not be true.

• 43:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And it would be printed.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 43:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So it was just a lot of bullshit. So saying that, whatever.

• 43:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, the perfect setup for like, oh, it's a meat packer. See, they're.

• 43:17Georgia Hardstark?

  They're the bad guys.

• 43:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, you mean the working class guy? The, the people that are, that don't have a lot of money?

• 43:23Georgia Hardstark?

  They're striking so that they could not work fucking seven hour, seven hour days? Nope. Seven days a week?

• 43:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:30Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 43:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 43:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't that what they did? Okay. So, all right. So then, with no direct evidence, and this is a time before Miranda rights existed too.

• 43:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Really? Wow.

• 43:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Karen Kilgariff?

  They're that recent?

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 43:43Georgia Hardstark?

  We should find out about that.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Uh, with no, say, with no direct evidence, police, police were like, you know what? Okay, the, the janitor at the building where Suzanne lived, let's fucking get his wife to pressure him into confessing.

• 43:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 44:00Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a 65-year-old man named Hector Verbig, Verberg, Verberg. She's like, "Implicate your husband." And she's like, "Fuck no, what are you talking about?" Still, the police told the press that this is the man. Like, the police kept, or the, the press kept being like, "We got our guy, we got our guy." He's held for 48 hours of questioning, during which time he's beaten severely and had to spend 10 days in the hospital afterwards.

• 44:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 44:27Georgia Hardstark?

  He said that anymore and he would have confessed to anything. So it's later determined that he is actually a Belgian immigrant, so he couldn't even write English well enough to have written the ransom note. He sues the Chicago Police Department for $15,000 at that time, $15,000, and he's awarded $20,000.

• 44:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 44:45Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like, "No, no, no, you're gonna get even more."

• 44:46Karen Kilgariff?

  The people have spoken.

• 44:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so this is how poorly this investigation is going. A month after Suzanne's body parts had been found and after she had been buried, then her arms are found.

• 44:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 44:59Georgia Hardstark?

  By sewer workers. So her body is buried without her arms. It's not a month until they find them.

• 45:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible.

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  How horrible is that? By April, 370 suspects had been questioned and cleared, and the press is starting to criticize the police's ability to catch Suzanne's killer.

• 45:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So they're turning on each other.

• 45:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And they're like, they've got the heat on them. Investigators say that they had found two partial fingerprints on the ransom note and one smudged fingerprint on the doorknob at the second crime scene. And that, um, experts matched the handwriting and fingerprint. They, they linked everything together so that the two, the murders of the two women, who are so different in every way to the murder, the kidnapping and murder of Suzanne, are linked. They say it's, that they're all linked.

• 45:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Which seems impossible to me.

• 45:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's almost just like, these are the three most upsetting things that have happened in the city recently.

• 45:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. We have a monster.

• 45:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Georgia Hardstark?

  This sells papers.

• 45:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna take care of everything at once.

• 46:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's a nice idea.

• 46:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And it's like, it's weird evidence, even if there were like, the experts say that the handwriting matches, it's like, that's clearly bunk science, we fucking know that now. And that's not, that's circumstantial evidence, it's not true evidence. Anyways, in late June of 1946, police questioned this fucking creepy-ass dude named Richard Russell Thomas. He was a nurse, um, at the time of the investig.

• 46:28Karen Kilgariff?

  No judgment on male nurses?

• 46:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, no, no. But he has medical knowledge, so he could.

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 46:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He could dismember.

• 46:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:36Georgia Hardstark?

  At the time of the, here's judgment time. At the time of the investigation, he's in prison in Phoenix for molesting one of his own daughters.

• 46:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 46:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So judgment.

• 46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So full judgment.

• 46:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Full judgment.

• 46:45Karen Kilgariff?

  From now on.

• 46:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, but he was in Chicago at the time of Suzanne's murder. And a handwriting expert, again, uh, says there's great similarities between Thomas's handwriting and the ransom note, uh, and that many of the phrases that was used, uh, in the ransom note, this dude, Richard Thomas, had used previously in an extortion note years earlier in an attempted kidnapping.

• 47:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 47:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So he fucking had tried to do it before and has similar phrases in writing.

• 47:16Karen Kilgariff?

  He pulled down his crime file and he was like, "What's my other hand copy, hand paste?"

• 47:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. He, he pulls out his, um, his like pre-computer, uh, what's it, font, murderer, serial killer font.

• 47:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 47:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Da, da, da, da, da. Oh, and he had medical training as a nurse, blah, blah, blah. Okay. So, and then during questioning by Chicago police, he totally admits to killing Suzanne.

• 47:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 47:44Georgia Hardstark?

  But he's, I don't know, I don't know about this guy. Anyways.

• 47:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, cause we do know that the other guy got beaten for hours and was in the hospital.

• 47:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 47:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So it could have been just one of those situations.

• 47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, grain of salt. So they think they have their guy. That is until authorities get a new suspect reported to the paper the same day that this Thomas dude is, uh, is happening. They find out that a college student was caught fleeing from the scene of a burglary and that when cornered, this guy had pulled a gun on police.

• 48:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And at this time, this dude, this Thomas dude had recanted his confession and police let him go. So they're like, "This other guy must be our guy." So let's talk about this guy. 17-year-old William Heirens, Heirens.

• 48:31Karen Kilgariff?

  17?

• 48:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. 17.

• 48:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:34Georgia Hardstark?

  William Heirens is born, uh, he was born in November of 1928, grew up in Lincolnwood, which is a suburb of Chicago. He's the son of, of poor immigrants from Luxembourg and his parents argued constantly as, when he was a kid, which made him just leave the fucking house and wander around town. And eventually he started, uh, committing petty crimes like burglary, just for fun, he said, just to release tension. He would break into houses and steal shit.

• 49:01Karen Kilgariff?

  To release tension.

• 49:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's like, "All right, bro."

• 49:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, have you ever heard of baseball or making a friend?

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  By 13 years of age, he's arrested for carrying a loaded gun, which he had stolen from a fucking.

• 49:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus Christ.

• 49:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he's on a bad path.

• 49:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very Bugsy Malone.

• 49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. A, a search of his house discover, they discover a number of stolen weapons in an old storage shed, along with furs, suits, cameras, radios and jewelries he had stolen. He admitted to 11 burglaries, uh, and was sent to school for wayward boys for several months. But here's the thing, he never sold anything. He never stole for money. It was almost just like he was bored and wanted to see what he could get away with and, and do.

• 49:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, the thrill of it.

• 49:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and he was poor, but he still didn't like sell the camera on the street or anything like that. I think he still sold, stole money, but it didn't seem like that was his intent.

• 49:53Karen Kilgariff?

  He, so he wasn't a cat burglar.

• 49:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He was like a weird, break-in, peeping Tom maybe type of guy.

• 50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I don't know about the peeping Tom part, but just like.

• 50:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, like a, how about a nosy Nelly?

• 50:04Georgia Hardstark?

  A nosy Nelly kid who just like, yeah.

• 50:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Who wanted to break some rules and get up into people's business.

• 50:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So he gets released and, and then William Heirens is again arrested for theft and larceny. This time though, he's sentenced to three years at a school operated by Benedictine Monks.

• 50:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-oh.

• 50:22Georgia Hardstark?

  No, that's what I thought too. It turns out, when he's at the school, he fucking flourishes.

• 50:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And it turns out he's smart as fuck. He's an exceptional student, excels in all kinds of crazy fucking subjects that I couldn't do.

• 50:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Like what, Latin?

• 50:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Electronics? I don't know. At the time, I could probably do this.

• 50:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Electronics, 1945.

• 50:43Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? But this wire here and that wire there.

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Use the phone. You're now an electronics major.

• 50:53Georgia Hardstark?

  But he's super fucking smart. His test scores are so high that he gets, uh, admitted to the, to University of Chicago's Experimental School for Gifted Students.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 51:02Georgia Hardstark?

  He's enrolled for a Bachelor of Science, wanting to become an electronics engineer, so he can use the fucking phone.

• 51:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Loves that phone.

• 51:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Calling people all the time.

• 51:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello, it's me, Richard. Can you believe this shit?

• 51:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, hoy, hoy.

• 51:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Saying ahoy hoy in a businesslike voice is the best. Ahoy hoy, I mean it.

• 51:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So he, he starts in the fall of 1945. He was 16 years old at this point and he started at this fucking school. It's college.

• 51:34Karen Kilgariff?

  A college?

• 51:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Smart guy college.

• 51:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:37Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a little man Tate situation.

• 51:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Congratulations, William Heirens. What happened?

• 51:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Well, here's what happened.

• 51:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 51:44Georgia Hardstark?

  He of course couldn't afford any of this shit. So he works several jobs, but he's also like, I'm gonna go back to being a serial burglar because it's fun and I can make money. So he keeps doing that. He kind of like lives this crazy double life, but at school he's known as like a good dancer. He's handsome and charming. He goes on dates and shit. Like people love, are friends with him and love him. He's pretty cute too. You want to see a photo of him? See him when he pulls the photo of him? That's what some chick was like. There was like a

• 52:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It can't be him.

• 52:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it was dance club. So like, it wasn't like they'd go dancing. It would be like, let's all learn how to like do the Lindy Hop and shit. And this chick was like, everyone wanted to dance with him because he was like charming and a good dancer.

• 52:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And a good dancer.

• 52:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Which is like

• 52:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the perfect cover.

• 52:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not what we say anymore. Um, okay.

• 52:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Now we're like, oh, he rides a motorcycle.

• 52:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. So the afternoon, all right. So da, da, da, da, da. So the afternoon that he, like cops are like, maybe this is the guy. He, it's June 26, 1946. He's 17 years old. He goes to the post office to catch, to cash a thousand dollar savings bond, which he had purchased with the money from previous burglaries. He had a date that night and he needed money. That's why he was doing this.

• 52:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He burgles, then he takes it, he buys bonds.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He invests.

• 53:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh. And then he needs the money to take a lady on a date, which a thousand dollars for a date. I'm like, fucking take me out, bro. There he is.

• 53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Where are you gonna go in Chicago?

• 53:09Georgia Hardstark?

  He has, your forehead.

• 53:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He has a three head for sure.

• 53:14Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's just like a strong hair, dark hairline, Karen forehead.

• 53:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 53:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Kilgariff forehead.

• 53:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It also, he has very great, great hair, great eyebrows.

• 53:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm. Good features.

• 53:27Karen Kilgariff?

  He, you know, he looks, the first, you've got, you're getting texts, Stephen. I want to read those texts out loud so bad, Stephen.

• 53:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't you? Who, who would play him?

• 53:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, Rob Riggle. That's the first person I thought of when I looked at that picture.

• 53:40Georgia Hardstark?

  If Rob Riggle, I feel like he'd have to be a little smaller, but he definitely has, if Italian, shorter Rob Riggle.

• 53:45Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, we do, Rob Riggle. We do a Dorf on Golf thing where Rob Riggle stands on his knees.

• 53:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 53:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And then we shoot around it, you know?

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  We just make it work.

• 53:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. We just, we, we do a, being John Malkovich, kind of small down the set. He gets on his knees. We're off to the races.

• 54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 54:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I figured it out. I'll call some people.

• 54:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Great. I'll be there. Um, ba, ba, ba, ba. Oh, and so he, okay. So he has this thousand dollars on him. He's like, fuck, I'm gonna bring a gun with me. This is a lot of money. That's why he has a gun on him. Um, the, he's making, listen, look, this guy.

• 54:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen.

• 54:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He's making bad decisions. Okay?

• 54:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, consistently.

• 54:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Consistently. This isn't, before I fucking tout why he's innocent about other shit, he sucks. And like, he's doing some shitty stuff.

• 54:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Because when he finds out that the bank is closed, he's like, well, I'll just rob a place real quick and get some cash for this date tonight. So like, you're not, and you have a gun on you too. You're not the best fucking dude.

• 54:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, yeah, because if you're smart enough to go to college when you're 16 years old and be Mr. Gifted, we, but you're not, and none of those abilities are applying to the, any other part of your life.

• 54:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or like, it's not even about being smart. It's just like, fuck everyone. Fuck everyone else. I want what I want. I'm gonna take it. You know, like you're stealing money from people who probably need that money too, dude.

• 55:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, right. And it's, yeah, that's all power moves and stuff where it's like, that, you know, those breaking people turn into murderers because they don't give a shit.

• 55:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're doing everything. It's like the thrill of it. And I'm, it's what I'm interested in. It's what I want to do. It's narcissism.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like there's part of you that wants to be like, well, you're 17. You're gonna like straighten your shit out and be a good person, which I think a lot of people sitting in this loft have done in their lives. Straighten your shit up.

• 55:32Karen Kilgariff?

  At least two, Stephen.

• 55:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Two of them. Uh, yeah, but you know, fuck.

• 55:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah, he's so young.

• 55:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. But, okay. So he goes to burglar a place to get some cash. He goes to a place that'd been stolen before, and it's just a few blocks away from the Deggnan house.

• 55:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 55:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Apartment. He's caught while trying to grab the money. This chase ensues, blah, blah, blah. He's cornered by the cops and then he fucking pulls his gun.

• 55:57Karen Kilgariff?

  On the cop?

• 55:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He doesn't shoot, but it's like, what the fuck are you thinking?

• 56:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Is he suicide by copping maybe?

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 56:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And then there's like a, the cops gun jams or some shit. There's a scuffle and then it turns into a fucking Laurel and Hardy or like Three Stooges pic because another cop grabs a fucking clay flower pot and smashes it over his fucking head. It says three of them, like takes three fucking flower pots and smashes his, it's fucking

• 56:30Karen Kilgariff?

  For real?

• 56:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 56:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's hilarious.

• 56:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's how he gets stopped from fighting with this cop.

• 56:35Karen Kilgariff?

  He was stopped by officers Tom and Jerry.

• 56:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Exactly. He goes unconscious. They take him to the hospital. He drifts in and out of consciousness. He says that he remembers someone saying that he's a suspect in the Deggnan case, and he feels his fingerprints being taken.

• 56:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 56:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. They raid his houses and shit where he lives. They find all his stuff from his previous blur, blurglories. I'm calling them blurglories now.

• 56:59Karen Kilgariff?

  A couple blurglories?

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  They were called blurglories until 1950.

• 57:02Karen Kilgariff?

  They were just a blur of burglaries.

• 57:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God, yes.

• 57:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Blurglories.

• 57:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Blurglories. Karen, that was amazing.

• 57:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. I'm really trying.

• 57:10Georgia Hardstark?

  A couple of things that are recovered are a scrapbook containing pictures of Nazi officials that have, that he had stolen from a war veteran. Um, that was taken when he blurglured his place.

• 57:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:24Georgia Hardstark?

  The same night that Susan Deggnan was killed.

• 57:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh oh.

• 57:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I want to fucking know about this dude who had that photo album. Like what a psychopath.

• 57:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Or did he liberate some, for some French city Nazi occupied and then grab shit? That happened a lot.

• 57:41Georgia Hardstark?

  His name was Harry Gold, so I'm gonna guess you're right.

• 57:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Harry Gold is on the right side, I bet you.

• 57:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Not a Nazi.

• 57:47Karen Kilgariff?

  He, Harry Gold's people came through Ellis Island. They're like, why don't we clip that burg off?

• 57:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's move to Chicago. Act as white as we can. Oh, World War II, we have to fight Hitler. Let's go for it.

• 57:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it. Okay. Harry Gold, I apologize. Okay. Also in his possession, in William's shit, is a stolen copy of the Psychopathia Sexualis.

• 58:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  From 1886.

• 58:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Preach it.

• 58:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the one, it's like the fucking, it's like the psychology of

• 58:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Sexuality?

• 58:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Sexual, psychopaths. Yes. Sexual psychopaths. Right?

• 58:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You know who's read that book?

• 58:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Who?

• 58:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Mr. Paul Holes.

• 58:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, Stephen. He never got past chapter one.

• 58:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I believe the fifth.

• 58:33Georgia Hardstark?

  You believe the fifth? You believe chapter fifth? The fifth chapter? That's what's wrong with him?

• 58:37Karen Kilgariff?

  He just starts reciting everything in the fifth chapter. Well, it turns out.

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  In Latin.

• 58:44Georgia Hardstark?

  In addition, okay, ba, ba, ba, they find that. And then they also find a stolen medical kit. So, and they're like, oh, is this shit, this dismemberment stuff? But it's like, it's not. Um, he's interrog, okay. So then here's what happens. Then William is interrogated around the clock for six fucking days. He's beaten by police, refused food or water. He's not allowed to see his parents and/or a lawyer. He's 17.

• 59:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, they beat the shit out of him.

• 59:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they did.

• 59:11Georgia Hardstark?

  He's subjected to interrogation for three hours under the influence of sodium penethal, which we know is truth serum, which we also now know is fucking bullshit and is not, doesn't work. Um, while under the truth serum, he like, and it's like a psycho, what is it called?

• 59:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Sexualis?

• 59:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just like that.

• 59:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like it?

• 59:35Georgia Hardstark?

  He like concocts this person, like an alter ego named George Merman. Who's the father.

• 59:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Ethel's brother?

• 59:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Ethel, Merman's brother. Um, Eugene's grandfather.

• 59:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 59:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Who authorized, who, it's basically like has this alter ego that makes him kill people, whatever, like makes it up on truth serum, maybe. And other people like, or did he make it up? Is he the killer? Is it true?

• 59:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean? Um, and then the fucking media is like, oh, Merman must be short for murder man. And then like, just go with that. It's just so stupid.

• 1:00:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I would have tabled that for a little bit longer.

• 1:00:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, like, I understand why you're excited about that idea. Let's keep workshopping.

• 1:00:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. Not the worst, but

• 1:00:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Definitely not the worst and feel great about it.

• 1:00:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Like go move, go forward with that.

• 1:00:18Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's too, uh, it's too open. Why aren't you just saying merman like a mermaid?

• 1:00:26Georgia Hardstark?

  On the fifth day, he's given

• 1:00:30Georgia Hardstark?

  with, okay, no anesthesia, given a spinal tap.

• 1:00:35Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:00:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that's torture. Uh, holy shit.

• 1:00:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Then they drive into police headquarters for a polygraph test, which they couldn't do because he was in so much fucking pain. And to this day, they still don't understand the, we still don't know why they gave him a lumbar puncture. They, it was like for a reason, but nobody, but it's like

• 1:00:51Karen Kilgariff?

  They didn't write the reason down?

• 1:00:53Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:00:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck. Well, sorry. They did that in a hospital and then drove him to police headquarters.

• 1:00:58Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the epidurics too, right?

• 1:01:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, no.

• 1:01:00Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no. I'm sorry, before that.

• 1:01:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's still, it's stuff getting shoved into your spine.

• 1:01:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. They gave him that.

• 1:01:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, okay. I hear that with, with anesthesia, it's painful.

• 1:01:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Ladies who've had babies, this is the most, like when they have to fucking shove that shit in your spine.

• 1:01:16Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't want a needle in your spine. I mean, I don't, I know I can be really controversial, but I'm gonna fucking say it. You don't want a needle in your spine.

• 1:01:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, are you sure you want to leave this part in?

• 1:01:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Leave it in, Stephen. How dare you?

• 1:01:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God. All right. When the polygraph is administered, results are inconclusive. They're declared inconclusive, although the people, and this is part of him being, uh, taken a trial, but later in 1953, the people who had pub, had said it was inconclusive, published the findings in their book, which I'm sure was just a fascinating read. Um, and they say that his test, quote, clearly establishes him as an innocent person. So like, people are lying. Handwriting analysis said his writing is the same as the lipstick message and the ransom note. They say that his fingerprints matched the fingerprints on the smudge, on the door jam, even though it was a smudged fingerprint. And they say

• 1:02:11Georgia Hardstark?

  that, uh, it's, it's, uh, his fingerprint. There's also another fingerprint found on the ransom note that they say is his blah, blah, blah. After, um, being intermittently tortured and held without food, sleep or access for five days, he is finally indicted for assault with intent to kill, robbery, 23 counts of blurgl, blur, blurglery. Jesus Christ.

• 1:02:35Karen Kilgariff?

  How's that Candace say?

• 1:02:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I wish I could blame it on that, but I haven't had that much of it.

• 1:02:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Burglary.

• 1:02:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Burglary and three counts of murder, blah, blah, blah. He's transferred to the county jail and his lawyer who's hired for him is like, no, man, you're guilty. Let's figure, let's figure this out and keep you out of the fucking chair. Like, that's his plan.

• 1:02:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:02:55Georgia Hardstark?

  He said that he, uh, all his plan, he thought he was guilty, his, and that the burglaries alone, he would face life imprisonment. So he's like, let's just keep you out of the chair.

• 1:03:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that guy's pretty negative for a defense lawyer. Aren't you supposed to be like over the top optimistic and fake it?

• 1:03:12Georgia Hardstark?

  In the real world, yes.

• 1:03:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so they, there's a plea bargain, a blargan, a plea blargan. He's gonna, if he, if he pleads, uh, guilty, he'll get a single life sentence. Uh, and then, but if he, but then he refuses, all this shit happens where he like, is like, I didn't do this. They're mad at him for saying that. And then finally, um, he's threatened with death penalty if he, if the trial goes, if the case goes to trial.

• 1:03:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:03:42Georgia Hardstark?

  He says later that I confessed to save my life. So he sentenced ultimately to three consecutive life sentences for the murders and, um, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Okay. Then the handwriting expert recants in early January of the next year and, uh, said that the handwriting on the ransom note and the lipstick message had, quote, "few superficial similarities and a great many dissimilarities."

• 1:04:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:04:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't matter. He's fucking already in prison.

• 1:04:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, too late.

• 1:04:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And then some have questioned the legitimacy of the lipstick note completely saying that, quote, "it wouldn't, it would be, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for a man to pick up a piece of lipstick and write the message with it." Basically, they think a fucking crime reporter went in there, was like, this story is boring and wrote the lipstick note.

• 1:04:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. What's boring about a woman getting stabbed and having her wounds taped shut?

• 1:04:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a, that was the first murder.

• 1:04:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's, the note was on the second murder.

• 1:04:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Karen Kilgariff?

  She wasn't boring either, though.

• 1:04:42Georgia Hardstark?

  None of this is boring.

• 1:04:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not boring.

• 1:04:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Karen Kilgariff?

  But I mean, that's, I, I understand.

• 1:04:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think that part's true, but I just don't. And I don't even know if those two murders are, are even connected, the first two.

• 1:04:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But it does make sense because there was that, it was the pulp era where it wasn't enough to have a murder.

• 1:04:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You did have, it was that sensationalism.

• 1:05:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, exactly. You had to, you had to have a nickname and you had to term things.

• 1:05:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally.

• 1:05:05Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, lipstick on the wall is like, what's more upsetting and crazy? Also, that's stolen straight out of Jack the Ripper.

• 1:05:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right.

• 1:05:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Write it on the wall and some weird writing of like, I'm crazy. And also it's the Jews who did it and all that stuff and make people run in every direction.

• 1:05:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's, it reminds me of the case of the weepy voice killer. Remember him? Who calls and is like, make me stop doing this.

• 1:05:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Hate his fucking voice.

• 1:05:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so annoying.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I was just talking to my friend about that.

• 1:05:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:05:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and I'm not your friend? You're talking to me about it right now?

• 1:05:35Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I'm telling you that we're talking about it right now.

• 1:05:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You just informed me when we were talking about shit.

• 1:05:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That's my new way of going crazy where I'm like, we're talking now. Anyway, go ahead.

• 1:05:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm talking to my brown haired friend right now.

• 1:05:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Go, go ahead and keep talking about what we're talking about.

• 1:05:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'm almost done. I swear this is long and I know.

• 1:05:53Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, it's good.

• 1:05:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And I apologize. Um, people, oh, also they're like, okay, the fingerprint that you guys found on the doorknob, that's a rolled fingerprint, which I didn't know about this until later. Yep. Explain the movie you just did.

• 1:06:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I just basically, it's the thing you see in every movie when someone gets booked at the police station and they roll, they put your thumb in the black ink and then they roll across a piece of paper.

• 1:06:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Which a fingerprint expert's like, that's not how you find fingerprints.

• 1:06:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. You don't touch the door by going like, oh.

• 1:06:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know how many times I did this move and tried to, and when I heard that and was like trying to open a doorknob in the air to be like, would I do that though? But I guess I could do that, but maybe I'd roll it. Whatever.

• 1:06:31Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't do it, right?

• 1:06:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not a thing. It's just like not normal.

• 1:06:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Because you have to grip it. You have to grip it.

• 1:06:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So it would just be the top of your fingerprint. Anyways, so, uh, William had been eligible for parole.

• 1:06:46Karen Kilgariff?

  What's going on?

• 1:06:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. For nearly, uh, nearly every year since the 1970s, he's been eligible for parole. Um, the Center for Wrongful Convictions mounted a clemency campaign on the grounds that he had served longer than required and that the evidence used to convict him was unreliable, but, uh, nothing worked. He just like, they wouldn't let him go.

• 1:07:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:07:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Constantly, this, these things kept happening.

• 1:07:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:07:11Georgia Hardstark?

  In 2012, when he died in 1980, nope. Jesus, in 2012, he was 80, he was 1983 years old.

• 1:07:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Got it.

• 1:07:22Georgia Hardstark?

  He was 83 years old. He was the longest serving inmate in the Illinois Department of Corrections in 2012. He's the first inmate in Illinois to receive a college degree. And he like learned all this crazy shit. He helped all these fucking other inmates with, you know, he helped the fucking, uh, library and the school system and the, and, you know, so he did a lot of good stuff in, inside.

• 1:07:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Is there a school system in the jail?

• 1:07:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Now there is, but there wasn't.

• 1:07:47Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a grammar school and there's.

• 1:07:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, he helped them like at GEDs. Like, you couldn't do that then. So, cause he was the first one to get his college degree.

• 1:07:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And he was in there basically as a child and he was super genius. So he's like, at the very least I can do is help other people.

• 1:08:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So that's a good sign.

• 1:08:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:08:04Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not what I don't, I don't think most psychopaths think that way.

• 1:08:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right. So, um, all right. So Robert Wrestler, our fucking friend, who's the, the former FBI profiler.

• 1:08:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Our fucking friend.

• 1:08:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:08:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Meaning we have, we're fans of him. That's what I always be when I say that.

• 1:08:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. He's our fucking friend.

• 1:08:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Our fucking friend.

• 1:08:24Karen Kilgariff?

  100%.

• 1:08:24Georgia Hardstark?

  He's one of us. Robert Wrestler, former FBI profile credited with coining the term serial killer, mind hunter dude. You guys remember him? So he was a nine year old living in Chicago at the time of those murders. And he says, quote, "it changed the innocence of neighborhoods when, where people had taken for granted that they could have unlocked doors and walk alone at night." Um, and it's those events that inspired him to become a criminologist, the lipstick murders.

• 1:08:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:08:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The Suzanne's murder itself became a key element in his landmark theories about serial homicide. And they actually, um, interviewed him. He and FBI profiler John Douglas, uh, interviewed him in prison and John Douglas remains convinced that shoddy evidence, uh, shoddy evidence management, prosecutorial overreach and media frenzy led to false accusations with these horrible consequences.

• 1:09:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:09:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's the lipstick killer.

• 1:09:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's also, every time I think of that too, there's obviously like the idea of going to jail and staying there for the rest of your life is a nightmare and people live it constantly. And that's horrible. But there's, I also always think somebody fucking got away with it and is sitting out there. They just went to a different town and did it again.

• 1:09:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I was trying to look at is like, are there, like, it's so hard to find info on this, but it's like, are there any, um, you know, other murders that could be attributed?

• 1:09:46Karen Kilgariff?

  What if he just went over to Boston and changed up his MO?

• 1:09:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I was thinking too.

• 1:09:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like that where, that's what I, I mean, I do love that when things happen and, you know, luckily it's been happening lately, you know, to where we get the satisfaction of like, they catch the Golden State killer and that means they have now solved Visalia Ransacker, East Area Rapist, and then all those, the, you know.

• 1:10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  The original, what they were calling it, the original night stalker. That, it's so satisfying that now I think about that all the time. What if they pull up this DNA thing and then it's just like, cause they don't stop. They don't just stop.

• 1:10:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No. I, I can't wait to hear more information about, I mean, I'm going out of my mind, which is why I had to stop fucking going on Twitter.

• 1:10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:10:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Of like, give me more information now.

• 1:10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  About, uh, the Golden State killer. Like they know this about him. They don't, and there's nothing coming up yet. So.

• 1:10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:10:39Georgia Hardstark?

  But I can't wait to know like why and what happened after 1986. You know, it's just crazy.

• 1:10:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. What were the jobs? Were, I mean, yeah, we just want to know everything. It's so crazy.

• 1:10:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, one of the things that they said that made sense about, you know, when he was like, you had to spend the rest of your life in prison. How awful would that be? But at the time, it, uh, in 1946, if he did get sent to the electric chair, it would have been a matter of months.

• 1:11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So they, now it's like 18 fucking years of appeals. It wasn't like that then.

• 1:11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:11:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's almost better that, you know, at least he had this time to make something of his life, even if it was.

• 1:11:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And help other people.

• 1:11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretty shitty. He had a chance of getting out. It just never worked out that way. You have to hope that nowadays something would have happened, but to get him out, but.

• 1:11:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Prison reform. It's important.

• 1:11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 1:11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so crazy.

• 1:11:33Georgia Hardstark?

  But then like, what if he didn't do it?

• 1:11:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but I don't think he would have helped people in prison if he did it.

• 1:11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not, that's not a, you can't figure that. That's like.

• 1:11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  He was so nice. I never would have.

• 1:11:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Too late. I already figured it and it's fact.

• 1:11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's the same thing if you're like, he was so nice. I never would have assumed Ted Bundy would have done this. It's the same thing.

• 1:11:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You bundied me and you're right.

• 1:11:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No way, man. People who are fucking into books and reading and smart and helping other convicts aren't not, aren't less likely to murder children and women.

• 1:12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  But.

• 1:12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But you want them to be nice, smart people.

• 1:12:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I just, but it is that thing of psychopaths only do what's good for them.

• 1:12:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, what looks good for him is helping other people in prison.

• 1:12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Except for, yeah, I guess that's true.

• 1:12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And look how smart he is. How, how, didn't Ted Bundy get off on fucking guys coming and getting legal help from him in prison?

• 1:12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:22Karen Kilgariff?

  He was, that's how he fucking didn't get beat up and killed.

• 1:12:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You've convinced me.

• 1:12:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. I love convincing. Oh, hey, look, there's a spider on the ceiling. I just threw my head back in fucking happiness and there's a legit spider on the ceiling.

• 1:12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I left my glasses downstairs.

• 1:12:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God, Karen is coming closer to you.

• 1:12:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, we're back. Are there any updates for this story?

• 1:12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  No updates, but Buried Bones released a two-part series titled The Lipstick Killer earlier this year. So definitely go listen to that. And then let's get into one of your classics, like I feel like top 20 of MFM.

• 1:13:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Of all time?

• 1:13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Stories that we've covered. Yeah. Let's listen to Karen telling the story about the Lindbergh baby kidnapping.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Your emergency. Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warnings. 911 Nashville returns.

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 1:13:24Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 1:13:31Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 1:13:32Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 1:13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 1:14:07Speaker 04

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• 1:14:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So, somebody suggested this on Twitter. And I was positive I was going to write her name down today, when I was like, oh, I am going to do that one she suggested.

• 1:14:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a theme.

• 1:14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And she, yeah, exactly. And she suggested it in a terse way. So I imagine she's the kind of person that's going to be very pissed off that I took her idea and didn't give her name.

• 1:15:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, good.

• 1:15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  She said, have you guys ever done the blah, blah, blah case? I think you should. It was something like that. It was basically like, come on, get with it.

• 1:15:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was like, that's actually a great idea. Thought I could look her up while we were sitting here. And my Twitter does a thing sometimes where it just won't go back very far. So I couldn't look it up. So full apologies. Hopefully I'll hear from you.

• 1:15:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Email Twitter first. Tell them to fix their shit.

• 1:15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Let @Jack know to stop letting Nazis run free on his website, and then that we need to be able to go back a couple days.

• 1:15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:15:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Just for the podcast.

• 1:15:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like, search a word.

• 1:15:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And, okay. You know what? Also, editing. It would just be nice to get one more pass before you send your ideas out. Anyhow, guys, this, I am going to do the crime of the century. The kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby.

• 1:15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl! I'm applauding you, but I would scare Elvis, who's sitting on me right now.

• 1:15:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, don't worry about it. Also, it's not my applause. It's this girl's whose name I'm not saying.

• 1:16:02Georgia Hardstark?

  This girl!

• 1:16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  This girl! Also, woman, we should be saying woman. We don't know. I actually could be misremembering, and I'm just attributing like, a feminine aspect to like, whatever picture. Maybe she had long hair. Who knows?

• 1:16:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Humans!

• 1:16:18Karen Kilgariff?

  We're going to, that human is going to let us know just how pissed they are about not getting credit for, you know, a case I also can't believe that we haven't done yet.

• 1:16:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And as I was doing it, part of me was like, what if George has done this? And I was like, at this point, I just don't care. I just want to do what I want.

• 1:16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that, yeah. I think that's our new, our new theme is, did she do this?

• 1:16:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, let's just start repeating stories and retelling them. And just do better each time.

• 1:16:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:16:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Less and less corrections corner.

• 1:16:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:16:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And then in like, seven years, we're going to get to that journalistic level people have been wanting us to be at this whole time.

• 1:16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we're not.

• 1:16:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Never!

• 1:16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And then we'll give up on the podcast.

• 1:17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, yes, that's, then we'll quietly walk away in the night.

• 1:17:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because you know how quiet we are. We'll walk away.

• 1:17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  So I got all this information from an episode of Nova.

• 1:17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, great show.

• 1:17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank fucking God for that.

• 1:17:13Georgia Hardstark?

  PBS?

• 1:17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Baby, it's like, and you can get an education for free on PBS. And the funniest thing is this episode of Nova featured John Douglas, FBI profiler John Douglas, who you just mentioned. He's the main, basically, they pulled John Douglas all the way through of going, the Lindbergh baby case was, and murder was presented in this way, and they got to this conclusion. John Douglas doesn't agree.

• 1:17:39Georgia Hardstark?

  John Dougie, that's what we call him.

• 1:17:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He's in there with his super reasonable face.

• 1:17:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Our friend.

• 1:17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And his glasses, holding his glasses and his teeth. A friend of the show, John Douglas, solving problems. It's very, very cool. So that's a good, that episode of Nova you can get on iTunes.

• 1:17:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Or you can hear it right now.

• 1:17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Or you can hear it, retell it word for word. Although, it's not an exact, I survived word for word steal, as I usually do.

• 1:18:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:18:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Because there's another, there's a Netflix series called Conspiracy.

• 1:18:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Ew.

• 1:18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That is good, and I got, and they do the thing where they do, it's compilation, so it's like, three stories in each episode.

• 1:18:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So you don't get bored.

• 1:18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  What's that?

• 1:18:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So you don't get bored.

• 1:18:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they keep it moving. And this one is, the episode is disappearances. It's also the other, I can't remember what the third crime is, but the other first crime in that is the Lord Lucan.

• 1:18:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you did that guy?

• 1:18:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Disappearance, yes, I did do that.

• 1:18:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:18:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Loving it! So here we go. Here's a little backstory for you. Why anybody cared about Charles Lindbergh in the first place. On May 21st, 1927, a 25-year-old US air mail pilot named Charles Lindbergh touched down in an airfield outside of Paris, France, in his plane, the Spirit of St. Louis. When I read that name, I'm like, oh, that's what that is. You know, the Spirit of St. Louis?

• 1:18:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, if you had asked me that, I would have confused it with the spruce goose. I would have, you know what I mean?

• 1:19:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe in Amelia Earhart situation. Just by the least, you know it's a plane.

• 1:19:08Karen Kilgariff?

  We know it, maybe it's a plane, or, but now we know exactly. That's Charles Lindbergh's wonderful plane that got him. He was the first man to ever make the non-stop flight from New York to Paris. It was 33 and a half hours.

• 1:19:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:19:23Karen Kilgariff?

  3,600 miles.

• 1:19:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that like, in one of those planes that doesn't have a face either? So it's just like, wind in your face?

• 1:19:30Karen Kilgariff?

  No, a biplane. I'm pretty sure it had a face on it. Although, I, why would I, why would I say that? If we're two years in, why would I fucking say that?

• 1:19:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Because you're not going to start now with not knowing shit.

• 1:19:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I, look, my brain shows me movies, and that's reality to me. And I just report to you, yes or no?

• 1:19:51Georgia Hardstark?

  My brain shows me movies, and that's reality.

• 1:19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's my reality.

• 1:19:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:19:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It was...

• 1:19:56Georgia Hardstark?

  33 hours. We complain about four or five hours to New York City.

• 1:20:00Karen Kilgariff?

  33 hours, and 33 hours alone. And all, all day, all night.

• 1:20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And all you hear is, mmm.

• 1:20:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And he couldn't bring a bunch of extra shit.

• 1:20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven's on the...

• 1:20:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Steven's got it.

• 1:20:12Georgia Hardstark?

  The plane.

• 1:20:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And do you know, thank God, the Spirit of St. Louis is closed in the front. Thank God!

• 1:20:21Georgia Hardstark?

  But I bet it's loud as fuck still.

• 1:20:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, the whole thing, it looks like a big aluminum can.

• 1:20:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No temperature control. No toilet.

• 1:20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it was freezing. You know he was peeing in an old Pepsi bottle. I mean...

• 1:20:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Throwing it over, overboard.

• 1:20:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Throwing it overboard for the first time in, in human history. Okay, so, um, he, when he sits down in Paris, and he does this thing, so, uh, just to give you a little, ooh, did that fucking, huh, god damn it. I cut and pasted it and then lost, lost this piece of information. But like, six other people had tried to do this, and three of them died.

• 1:21:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude!

• 1:21:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So this wasn't a thing, this was not, um, this was something, because it was, there was a prize. It was, um, these people said, whoever does this first gets $25,000.

• 1:21:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:21:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So lots of pilots and different people were, um, were trying for it. And it's really hard, and some people like, had to ditch out, and whatever. But like, people lost their lives trying to make this flight. So when Lindbergh landed in this airfield outside of Paris, he was immediately an international superstar. He was the most famous man in the world. He got carried around, the people that were waiting at the airstrip.

• 1:21:40Georgia Hardstark?

  He never had to walk again.

• 1:21:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He never walked again. His feet became curled and atrophied. No, um, they, they said they held him, this is in the Wikipedia page, they, they carried him on their shoulders for over a half an hour.

• 1:21:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus! He's like, I've only wanted to touch the ground for the past 30 hours. The first three were great. Put me down.

• 1:22:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he's like, this is the exact position I've been stuck in for 33 hours. All right, so, he, he gets the nickname Lucky Lindby. Gets that 25K. He also gets thousands and thousands more for all these promotional fees.

• 1:22:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah, I bet.

• 1:22:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Because apparently...

• 1:22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  The Pepsi bottle, it's Pepsi company.

• 1:22:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Pepsi's like, we want that bottle.

• 1:22:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  But apparently, this really opened up aviation in general, but also for air mail. So he was the guy that kicked it open over like FedEx and everything. Where it's like, you want, you want to get something to Europe? We're doing, now we're going to be able to do that.

• 1:22:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, and that was kind of what the whole contest was about.

• 1:22:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:22:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Was to, to kind of focus on aviation, but then like, you know, opening up, so that suddenly people were thinking, you know, business in terms of aviation, I don't know what I'm talking about. Okay. He was, he'd given the Medal of Honor, which is the military's highest award. And he was given, uh, he was Time Magazine's first ever man of the year. And still the youngest to this day. He was 25 years old.

• 1:23:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So young.

• 1:23:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And he was kinda hot, too.

• 1:23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, do you know who he looks like?

• 1:23:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Who?

• 1:23:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you mind pulling up a picture of Mr. Charles Lindbergh at age 25 when he made this flight?

• 1:23:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't tell me until I see it.

• 1:23:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:23:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Who is it?

• 1:23:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna show you a picture.

• 1:23:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  You're gonna tell me who you think this man looks like. Now, please, take your time. I'm just killing time while Stephen finds it.

• 1:23:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Was he tall? He looked tall in all the photos.

• 1:23:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:23:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:23:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He was tall. He was blonde. He had a dent in his chin.

• 1:23:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:23:35Karen Kilgariff?

  He was, his coloring was very like caramel, but with blonde hair, which you know, those people, those people always win.

• 1:23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They always win.

• 1:23:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Let me pull up, oh, it's such an old man of the year, um, thing that it's illustrated. That's how long ago this story took place.

• 1:23:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 1:23:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I'm sorry I did this.

• 1:23:59Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, it's okay. Cause why don't you look at this picture and tell me?

• 1:24:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, hello handsome.

• 1:24:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Who you think this looks like?

• 1:24:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I'm gonna get this wrong.

• 1:24:07Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you're not.

• 1:24:07Georgia Hardstark?

  He looks, he definitely looks like he's in a Brit pop band from the 60s in this photo, doesn't he?

• 1:24:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:24:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Does he look like, God, he's hot. Uh, tell me.

• 1:24:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Paul Holes. Look at the face.

• 1:24:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet. He does look like Paul Holes. This is the Holes episode.

• 1:24:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, let's just work all this Paul Holes stuff out now.

• 1:24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the holes upon holes upon holes episode.

• 1:24:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so.

• 1:24:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He does look like Paul Holes.

• 1:24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So Lindbergh, being the most famous man in the world, and like, he's being, he's being brought everywhere. He's like, he's being feted in this really intense way. And he's making a ton of money.

• 1:24:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for him.

• 1:24:48Karen Kilgariff?

  They said that for everything that kinda he got paid for around that flight, he made like almost half a million dollars. In today's money.

• 1:24:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So, but still, a lot, a lot of money.

• 1:24:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll take today's money, half a million, for fuck's sake.

• 1:25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty nice. Uh, so that he gets a financial planner, a financial consultant from JP Morgan, a big company. And, uh, it's a big company, did you know? And, um, the planner's name is Dwight Morrow, and he's also the ambassador to Mexico.

• 1:25:18Georgia Hardstark?

  What the fuck?

• 1:25:20Karen Kilgariff?

  He was, you know, this was when they gave important job, a ton of important jobs to one white guy. It was the twenties. So when Morrow, uh, invites Charles Lindbergh to come on a goodwill tour of Mexico, because he's famous and everyone loves him, well, just by chance, Morrow's daughter Anne is down there. And they meet and they fall in love.

• 1:25:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, rich people falling in love.

• 1:25:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Rich, good-looking people who have their own planes fall in love all the time.

• 1:25:52Georgia Hardstark?

  They deserve everything.

• 1:25:55Karen Kilgariff?

  They deserve to fly. Okay, he teaches her how to fly.

• 1:26:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet he does.

• 1:26:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, girl.

• 1:26:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And then he teaches her how to, I don't know. Love.

• 1:26:08Karen Kilgariff?

  They get married, immediately start a family. Charles Lindbergh, uh, was very vocal and verbal insulting, or criticizing, I should say, other, uh, pilots of the day. There was lots of, you know, pilots, like it's the Amelia Earhart era where it's like, being dashing, being, you know, being a pilot was a big deal.

• 1:26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  He was a trash talker.

• 1:26:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He was, because he said that Air Force cadets and pilots of the day, they were all, um, they were, had facile attitudes about women. And, how dare, whereas he believed the ideal romance was stable and long-term with a woman with keen intellect. Good health, whoops, and strong genes.

• 1:26:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oops. Oh, so you're a Nazi.

• 1:26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh, good one, good eye. His, quote, "Experience in breeding animals on our farm have taught him the importance of good heredity."

• 1:27:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Of good breeding. Oh, dear.

• 1:27:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey Chuck, no.

• 1:27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no.

• 1:27:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It don't work that way. Okay, so that's just a little, that's your, that's your, um, foreshadowing.

• 1:27:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:27:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So let's go to the crime. This is 1932. They, uh, Anne and, uh, Charles Lindbergh have been married. And they now have two kids and newborn and their baby Charlie, their first son, who is two years old. On March, on Tuesday, March 1st, 1932, um, the family's staying at their as-yet unfinished new house in Hopewell, New Jersey, or right outside of Hopewell, New Jersey. They only visited this house on the weekends. They were, they were living full-time at Anne Morrow's family estate called Inglewood.

• 1:27:59Karen Kilgariff?

  So no one, except for the family, would have known that they would have been at this house because they, they were full-time living at the Inglewood estate, but they would come to the Hopewell house and live there just for the weekend, just for fun of like, this is gonna be our new house.

• 1:28:16Karen Kilgariff?

  There was, of course, full staff at both houses. So sometime between eight and 10 o'clock on March 1st, um, one or more, they're still not sure kidnappers, lean a homemade folding ladder. So it's a ladder that has three pieces that like slide into each other. An extending ladder, I guess, but it's homemade. Lean it up against the wall of the house, underneath the baby's window. The window's unlocked. The kidnapper breaks in, grabs the two-year-old. They say, they theorize that they subdued the two-year-old somehow because no sound was made. No one in the house heard anything. Everyone was still awake.

• 1:29:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's not like everyone was asleep and the baby was stolen. Everyone's up and awake downstairs. The baby doesn't make a sound. They go back out, down the ladder and off into the night with Charlie. And, uh, they leave a window, a letter on the windowsill, so there's another ransom, demanding $50,000 to be dropped off at midnight at a local cemetery on April 2nd. And they warn not to contact the police or they'll kill the baby. So, um, basically Charles Lindbergh takes over this case. Now, it seemed to me that what they were kind of insinuating in both of these specials is that Charles Lindbergh

• 1:29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  really kinda believed he was the shit that the world was saying that he was for, for making that, uh, that transcontinental flight.

• 1:29:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He was cocky.

• 1:29:49Karen Kilgariff?

  The transatlantic flight, yes. He, some people believe he was a narcissist, um, you know, whatever. But, but essentially, once this started happening, he didn't trust anybody. He didn't trust the police. And he basically told everybody how it was gonna go. And in doing so, fucked up this investigation, that then also some people afterwards kinda theorized, maybe he was doing it on purpose. So there's, there's suspicion cast, but he basically told the police, like, we're gonna make this ransom drop. You will not tail anybody. You will not follow them.

• 1:30:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Just do it.

• 1:30:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but, but we're going to do it. And so the police said, okay, fine, just let us, let us organize the money, the cash that you're gonna drop. Because what the police wanted to do was, um, essentially they're using, uh, gold, it was like the gold standard. There used to be bills that were like, it was gold standard money. And they were beginning to phase it out. But they were like, if, if we just use only money with these serial numbers, it'll be easier to track what, if these people try to spend this money after the fact.

• 1:30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So they put together $50,000. They put it in this wooden box. Now, of course, when the kidnapping happens, it's, it's everywhere. It's the hugest story in the nation and remained so. Of course, it got even worse after, but it's the hugest story. So when they know that there's a kidnapping and there's a ransom note, a retired school teacher named Dr. John Condon, who idolized Charles Lindbergh, puts an ad in the paper saying that he volunteers to be the go-between and make the ransom drop at the cemetery.

• 1:31:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No, don't trust him.

• 1:31:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Lindbergh and the kidnappers both say, good, sounds good. So then now.

• 1:31:36Georgia Hardstark?

  What is this world?

• 1:31:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to see it in the, in the Nova special. The Nova special is really good because it has so much footage. It's so crazy.

• 1:31:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 1:31:44Karen Kilgariff?

  There's footage from, there's footage from the trial. Like, it's, it's intense. But this old guy, it's just another one of those things where like, it's a guy in a three-piece suit. So everyone went, yeah, do whatever you want. Come on into this thing. And he is a blowhard. And he, you know, they say he had good intentions, but he made himself, he's one of those people. He was like looking for the spotlight.

• 1:32:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Opportunist, yeah.

• 1:32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So, um, basically he goes, uh, he goes to the cemetery to make that drop. And he hands over a box full, and it's a wooden box full of $50,000 in these special bills. And he exchanges that for a note saying where baby Charlie can be found. The kidnappers take the box of money. They give the note. They disappear. And the information in the note turns out to be incorrect. So it was, all of that was for nothing.

• 1:32:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So they still don't have the baby and the kidnappers have gotten away scot-free.

• 1:32:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So, you saw it coming?

• 1:32:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So, six weeks later, on May 12th, a truck driver driving from Princeton to Hopewell pulls over because he has to use the bathroom. He walks into the woods a little bit. This is five miles away from the Hope, Lindbergh's, uh, Hopewell estate or home.

• 1:33:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And this truck driver finds the decomposing body of Charlie Lindberg. And the police and the coroner and everybody determine, eventually determine, the baby was killed the night that he was taken. So it turned out that he had, his skull was fractured on one side. And then there was a hole in the other side of the skull, the opposite side, kind of back by the ear. And so the police report said that the officer that went and tried to get the body, you know, like pull the remains out of the mud, had used a stick and they, the officer thought

• 1:33:52Karen Kilgariff?

  he had poked a hole through the skull with the stick. But in this episode of Nova, there's a man named Dr. John Butts and he's the North Carolina Chief Medical Examiner.

• 1:34:03Georgia Hardstark?

  John Butts.

• 1:34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  John Butts, he's retired medical examiner, but he's also an expert on the death of suspicious death in children.

• 1:34:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I want to talk to him forever.

• 1:34:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And he's so, I love when those guys come on and they're just like, nope. And it's basically, he's saying, you could not, the way, especially children's skulls are, you couldn't poke, there's no way to do that. And so even if, whether or not this person was just simply mistaken and freaked out, or they were trying to mislead, he believes that the original wound, oh, oh, because the theory was from that, the theory became that when the kidnappers were coming back down that ladder.

• 1:34:43Georgia Hardstark?

  This story has stuck, this part, I know, and it fucking is horrifying.

• 1:34:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. They think, they thought at the time, the kidnappers were coming down the ladder with the baby and dropped the baby.

• 1:34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Or fell forward at the, because wasn't one of the ladder rungs broken?

• 1:34:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, this ladder is the rickety, dumbest looking thing you've ever seen. It's truly like if we went and made our own ladder. I mean, anything's possible with a homemade three tiered ladder.

• 1:35:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Insane. And when you see this thing, and you can see it in the Nova thing, it's like, it doesn't even make sense. But the problem is with that theory, the fracture, that only accounts for the fracture on one side.

• 1:35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:35:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And it doesn't include that just the baby had more injuries than that. And they, I think probably, maybe in the hopes of simplifying, but basically they weren't taking into account. And so Dr. John Butts was like, that baby must have been laying down and there is a blow to one side of the baby's head, which caused the hole by the ear. And the pressure of that caused the fracture on the other side. That's, that's his theory personally.

• 1:35:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah. No butts about it. Is that his TV show?

• 1:35:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah, and then he just goes through and is talking about horrible child deaths.

• 1:35:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, wait, I thought this was.

• 1:35:58Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, and this is how it went, and there's no butts about it. And everyone's crying. I don't want to talk about this anymore. Two and a half years after the body is discovered, it's basically goes cold for a little while.

• 1:36:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:11Karen Kilgariff?

  A man in New York State buys 98 cents worth of gas, but he pays with a $10 gold certificate with this old money.

• 1:36:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And the attendant cites it and writes down his license plate number, not because he knows it has anything to do with the Lindbergh kidnapping, but he knows that money's, that currency is going out of use. And he wants to make sure, he writes the license plate number down because he wants to make sure he can get a hold of that guy if the bank doesn't take his money.

• 1:36:42Georgia Hardstark?

  What a crazy world to live in that, that certain currency is going out and not going to exist anymore.

• 1:36:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Like imagine just living it, it's so old timey.

• 1:36:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It is, but it all looks exactly the same. It's the same design as modern money. It just had yellow, like gold things on it. I know, I didn't look up what the gold standard was, I didn't. But you know, if you're interested in currency or the US Mint, I urge you to take a tour and educate yourself. I can't do it all.

• 1:37:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So the cool thing is then he immediately calls the bank. The bank recognizes that it's on this list of the Lindbergh ransom money.

• 1:37:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:37:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And they call the police. So why do I think I can hold a huge cup of coffee and do this at the same time? So that license plate is tracked back to a car that belongs to a man named Bruno Richard Hartman. Hartman is a German immigrant carpenter who lives in the Bronx. And when the police search his home, they find a little less than $14,000, which is exactly two thirds of the ransom money.

• 1:37:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No way.

• 1:37:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry, one third of the ransom money.

• 1:37:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it. That's what I thought.

• 1:37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:37:59Karen Kilgariff?

  50,000, half is 25, yeah. A third. I wrote two thirds.

• 1:38:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, the other person has two thirds.

• 1:38:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, it's the non.

• 1:38:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what you meant.

• 1:38:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the third that's not the two thirds.

• 1:38:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 1:38:14Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's what I'm trying to say.

• 1:38:17Karen Kilgariff?

  He has, he, so basically he has the money with the serial numbers in his house. He also has a handgun. They're like, it's this guy. Then they look up, they, he has a criminal record where he's from in Germany. He had two arrests, one for climbing up a ladder into the second story window.

• 1:38:35Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:38:35Karen Kilgariff?

  To break into the mayor's house.

• 1:38:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut your fucking face.

• 1:38:37Karen Kilgariff?

  To break into the mayor's house.

• 1:38:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Of Germany?

• 1:38:39Karen Kilgariff?

  To the whole mayor of Germany.

• 1:38:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And the other crime was for holding up two women who were pushing a baby carriage.

• 1:38:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude, you're like, it's like a map.

• 1:38:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, it's a map and it's like, here's one thing I'm not afraid to do.

• 1:38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's this other thing I'm interested in doing.

• 1:38:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, I love ladders.

• 1:39:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, god damn it, I love to make a ladder. Now, on that very topic, if you picture, so this ladder needs to be tall enough to reach a second story window.

• 1:39:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's like, he made a normal ladder, then he made a slightly smaller ladder that would slide up within that ladder. And then a third one. Like that's how rickety and janky this ladder was.

• 1:39:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I wouldn't claim that thing.

• 1:39:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And they find that the third section of this ladder, there's a piece of it that's made from yellow pine. And when they look up into Richard Hartman's attic, the floorboards of the attic are made of yellow pine.

• 1:39:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 1:39:41Karen Kilgariff?

  They pull that shit down, they pull that piece of the ladder off and they match it exactly. So it's one more piece of like confirming evidence that this guy was there and had something to do with it.

• 1:39:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sorry, also, the bottom legs of the bottom part of the ladder broke and that's, that's what led them to that theory that the baby fell and, and cracked its head.

• 1:40:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:40:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the, the part of the ladder, ladder that he left there, the bottom legs were broken.

• 1:40:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:40:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Or had cracked. It's rickety as shit. It's like, why even? Just get four people to, and climb on their backs, it would be safer.

• 1:40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so all of that, all of that combined gets Richard Hartman arrested on September 19th, 1934. And talk about this, like how it all went so fast back then and there was no, but also the world was watching this.

• 1:40:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Crime. I mean, that, when that baby was found dead, they said, the, the nation hadn't mourned like that since Lincoln was assassinated and didn't mourn like that again until JFK was assassinated. It was like, this was everybody's baby and they, it was this hero, this American hero's child.

• 1:40:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but we still have, it's, it's almost why we have, you know, appeals and shit today is because you didn't have that back then.

• 1:41:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Just fucking killed Ethel and Julius Rosenberg out, off the fucking bat.

• 1:41:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they were, their solution to everything was just, okay, great, kill him. We get, we solved it. Now, now we don't have to do this paperwork anymore.

• 1:41:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Kill them before they ask any questions about what happened.

• 1:41:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, quick kill, quick beat them for 10 hours and then kill them as quickly as possible.

• 1:41:26Georgia Hardstark?

  They confess, kill them.

• 1:41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Quick, quick, quick, kill, kill, kill, kill. Okay. So, uh, he stood trial January 2nd, 1935. And he's found guilty on February 13th of the same year and given the death sentence. Now, at one point, he maintained his innocence throughout the whole time, including when the cops were like, if you give us the names of your co-conspirators, we will reduce your sentence, we'll make sure that you don't get the death penalty. And he, he, he just maintained his innocence and didn't give any names. So on April 3rd, 1936, Bruno Richard Hartman is put to death in the electric chair by the state of New Jersey. Yeah.

• 1:42:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So now, there's all kinds of theories, of course, about this murder.

• 1:42:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That was it? So the case closed?

• 1:42:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Case closed. They got the guy. And, and you can see in this Nova special, they have clips of him on, literally on the stand during court, and the lawyer is yelling at him so loudly, like there's no microphones, obviously. It looks like he's just sitting on a chair raised up above everybody and the lawyer's like, and do you tell me? And he's like yelling, the place is packed. It was a total zoo, like that, the, the.

• 1:42:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Circus.

• 1:42:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Surrounding area was packed with like thousands of people going, just being at the courthouse every day is super crazy. So yeah, they just wanted it over. They were just like done. And they were like, oh, he's, he's doing the thing a guilty person would do, which is like, no, no, no, I didn't do it the whole time.

• 1:43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And yeah, like even the, the phrase, the Lindbergh baby, like that was like, it was a huge story.

• 1:43:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It was, it was a huge story and people wanted someone to pay.

• 1:43:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:17Karen Kilgariff?

  This was, this was like this tragic thing that seemed unnecessary and they wanted someone to pay. So here's the theories. Of course, the first and strongest is that he didn't act alone. Nobody thinks he acted alone. The lick, the, the liquor, the ladder was too rickety. Somebody needed to hold that stupid thing from the bottom because it was like the dumbest ladder of all time.

• 1:43:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Once he got inside, there's a baby that would make noise. So you have to have, you know, they're going to have to subdue that baby somehow. And then they have to get back out and back down the ladder, holding it still. Nothing about, it just couldn't, they just don't see how it could be done by one person.

• 1:43:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's just so much organizing and, and you know, stuff to do. Also later, they do handwriting comparisons. They were 15 overall.

• 1:44:10Karen Kilgariff?

  The police don't know officially because Lindbergh was like, you don't get to be a part of this. But there were 15 different ransom letters that were written.

• 1:44:17Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:44:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they, they communicated a bunch and you know, with the old retired school teacher Lindbergh.

• 1:44:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:23Karen Kilgariff?

  They were masterminding all of it. And at the time and in court, they proved the handwriting expert at the time proved that it was Richard Hoffman's handwriting on all the letters. But of course, modern day, and in this episode of Nova, they're just like, yeah, it is inconclusive. And it's that's super cool, modern handwriting analysis where they're taking the, you know, like two letters that always get written together, like a E and a T or whatever. And then they're showing how it's like all percentages. It's very scientific. Of like, this matches, this doesn't, because of course, in every letter, a couple of things match and then, and then some things don't. So it's all total like percentages.

• 1:45:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And it depends on what letters are written before and after them and, and where they place in the, in the word.

• 1:45:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:45:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that shit.

• 1:45:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's very cool. And you can kind of see that they, it doesn't match.

• 1:45:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, from a distance, but they needed it. They needed it to be at the time. So, so they believe that other people were involved. Also, they, because of how many things had to go right with a kidnapping like that, they believed that it was somebody that worked on the staff in one of the houses.

• 1:45:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:45:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It was an inside job.

• 1:45:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:45:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And they believe that, uh, this is a man named Lloyd Gardner, who's a professor at Rutgers. And he has, this is his theory. And it's a very strong, interesting theory, strong, strongly interesting.

• 1:45:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's his theory that it's, there was somebody inside the house that was helping set it up. And, uh, they're the only, also the only other people that would have known that the Lindbergh family would have gone to the Hopewell house. Cause they were full time at the other house. So that's like, very few people would have known that, would have known to go to the unfinished house that they didn't live in yet.

• 1:46:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  The police interviewed a servant who worked at the Inglewood estate named Violet Sharp. And they interviewed her twice. She gave contradictory stories between the first and second one. When they went back for the third interview, um, she runs upstairs, drinks silver polish and dies within minutes.

• 1:46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that sounds chill.

• 1:46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  She just immediately commits suicide.

• 1:46:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 1:46:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So then that's very suspicious, right? And it's like, well, something's going on.

• 1:46:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  In this household. Okay. So Lloyd Gardner's theory, and then maybe other people's too. And this pulls in some dark shit in Charles Lindbergh's life. He had, okay. So Charles Lindbergh had a sister who died of heart failure. And he started, he was, um, a researcher. He was an inventor. He did a bunch of other shit, but just besides being in the, uh, like, he was in the air force and being a pilot and all that stuff. He did a bunch of other stuff too. He started working with, um, a Nobel prize winning scientist named Dr. Alexis Carroll. And Dr. Carroll had won the Nobel prize because he did all this work in vascular surgery.

• 1:47:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And so Dr. Carroll, um, Lindbergh went and worked with him as a medical engineer because they were trying to figure out essentially how to build, um, a heart pump to keep people alive if they're, if they had heart failure. And that's, that's the work they did. But the work that they, that people didn't know so much about is that Dr. Alexis Carroll was a huge proponent of eugenics.

• 1:47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh dear.

• 1:47:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you don't know, eugenics was this, uh, kind of pseudo scientific belief that got very popular in the thirties in America because of this doctor, that, um, we, that human beings should be breeding to make, uh, that basically genetically superior people are the only people that should reproduce.

• 1:48:17Georgia Hardstark?

  A master race.

• 1:48:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And that we should sterilize anybody who's physically or mentally imperfect. It was gaining tons of popularity and Dr. Carroll told Lindbergh, he was the perfect example of the uber mensch, super man that, um, eugenics was aiming toward, which of course, you know, our boy Charles Lindbergh was like, oh really? Tell me more. I love this idea that I, I'm the one everyone should want to be like. And I already was the international superstar.

• 1:48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  JP Morgan's fucking daughter. Like Jesus Christ.

• 1:48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Master race.

• 1:48:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So he becomes this huge proponent of fucking eugenics, which, which basically becomes a very shrouded, pro Nazi, anti Semitic movement.

• 1:49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:07Karen Kilgariff?

  But it just has this super creepy face of like, you know, the American dream is almost how they, they were trying to market it. It's super gross. Okay. So, um, so the theory is that Charlie Lindbergh, Charles Lindbergh's first son was not a healthy baby. That he had a mild form of rickets.

• 1:49:30Karen Kilgariff?

  There's, rickets is the disease in little kids, if, if they have it bad enough, it basically makes their legs, their knees touch. And like their legs are bowed and they're really deformed. Um, Charlie's wasn't that bad. So that's, some people argue that this, that this health argument isn't strong enough or like, the case can't be made. But the theory is that they wouldn't have, that, that the family was very secretive about what all these medical problems were. He also didn't have a closed fontanelle, um, which I love that word. Cause that's what Holly Hunter says in Raising Arizona.

• 1:50:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Something about, I swear that you mentioned that just now because there's something about this case that has always reminded me of Raising Arizona and that they take a ladder and climb up to the fucking second floor and steal a fucking baby.

• 1:50:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's kind of exactly, it's like the comedy version of this horrible story.

• 1:50:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And my little fontanelle.

• 1:50:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Mine is fontanelle.

• 1:50:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I love him so much. Mine is fontanelle.

• 1:50:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So, okay. So the fontanelle wasn't closed, which is a soft spot on a baby's head. And he was two years old.

• 1:50:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:50:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's, that's very late for that to be happening.

• 1:50:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:50:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, there's a doctor, um, I think on the conspiracy show, who was talking about that, that when the, um, baby, when the remains were found, there were deeper inner organs that were missing. And, and at the time, I think they, the medical examiner, they, they wrote it off as, well, it's exposure.

• 1:51:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And wild animals have gotten to it. And this woman in the, in the conspiracy one goes, yeah, but you wouldn't be missing.

• 1:51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:51:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You wouldn't be missing your heart. You wouldn't be missing, um, half of your lung, but not your heart.

• 1:51:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. You wouldn't like, they're not going to be like, I, I'm a big fan of lungs.

• 1:51:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm going to take this piece and not that.

• 1:51:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not a pick and choose situation. It doesn't make sense. So they're saying, they think this baby had a bunch of surgeries, that there was a lot of things wrong and just nobody knew about it. It was like the secret. And that, that the plan was, because this was a thing that got done a lot back then, that the plan was that it was Charles Lindbergh's idea to kid, quote unquote, kidnap the baby. Then the baby's missing. And then meanwhile, they can anonymously check that two year old into an institution and basically institutionalize the child so that he doesn't ever have, the world will never know that his genes are not perfect. And he is not this super mensch.

• 1:52:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I did not know this.

• 1:52:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, this is a theory. So this isn't obviously proven and this is.

• 1:52:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's true.

• 1:52:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Take it up with Nova if you don't like it. But, um, but I think it's fascinating because it would, there's nothing about that story that makes sense.

• 1:52:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Like this, the, the mystery of the Lindbergh baby kidnapping is why, why would you kill a baby if you got the money for it? What monster would just immediately same night before anyone gets a chance to pay off?

• 1:52:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Anything, just kill the child. It doesn't make sense.

• 1:52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then keep going with it. Yeah.

• 1:52:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Uh, and also then just that those things, those behaviors are connected. Like if you're into eugenics, there's some thing going on inside you that is really gross.

• 1:52:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And really creepy. And it continued on. So, um, so basically after the kidnapping and then the body, the body being found, the public attention and pressure was so great on the Lindbergh family. That they, and, and apparently in one of these stories, they said that there was another kidnapping threat against their baby John, their new baby. So they, um, they were given diplomatic passports and they traveled under assumed names. And they took a boat, like they left in the middle of the night and took a boat to England and ended up going to live with family that they had there in, um, in Wales is where they, they ended up going to Wales. And then they went off to some, um, island off the coast of France. They were just like,

• 1:53:32Karen Kilgariff?

  tried to get away from everybody. Um, but, so they lived in Europe for the next three years. But the next three years was 35 to 38 in fucking Europe.

• 1:53:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:53:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And the Nazis were coming to power.

• 1:53:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And the Nazis had heard all about how much, um, Charles Lindbergh was into eugenics. And they were like, guess what? We're into eugenics too. Why don't you come and take a tour of the fucking factory? So that basically he came out as a very huge anti Semite and a big pro Hitler. Like he was, his whole thing was like, I don't know why Hitler has to be so extreme about everything, but they do have great ideas. He was that guy.

• 1:54:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And nobody was telling.

• 1:54:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not a Nazi, but.

• 1:54:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But I do love, I love their ideas and they're organized or all that bullshit. Okay. So, um, So basically, he gets asked to return to the United States to be a consultant for the US Air Force. Because I think the military was like, we're about to get into this thing.

• 1:54:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:35Karen Kilgariff?

  At that point, when they come back, they have, he and Anne had had five children.

• 1:54:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:54:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And they say, over the years, his kids only saw him a couple months a year.

• 1:54:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:54:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That he was really detached, distant father. And then, so, none of that explains the kidnapping, and none of that attributes anything. And there was lots of distant fathers that knew about this shit. But then here's another weird twist. In 2003, these people, these German citizens come forward and announce that they are secretly, they were secretly fathered by Charles Lindbergh in the 50s.

• 1:55:12Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:55:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Seven adult people.

• 1:55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:55:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So, what happened was, and this turns out to be fucking true.

• 1:55:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No way.

• 1:55:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That in the like, late 50s, he goes over to Germany, and he starts having an affair, he has an affair with a woman named Brigitte Hessheimer. She has, he has three children with Brigitte, and then Brigitte's sister, Mariette, who's a painter, he has two kids with her sister.

• 1:55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:55:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, with his private secretary in Europe, he has, her name is Valeska, I just have the name Valeska, that he has a son and daughter with her.

• 1:55:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, dude, chill out.

• 1:56:00Karen Kilgariff?

  All seven kids, they're born between 58 and 67. And in 1974, Charles Lindbergh died of lymphoma, and 10 days before his death, he wrote letters to all three women, begging them not to reveal the secret. And so, none of them did.

• 1:56:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:56:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And the only way they found out was one of, I believe it was Brigitte's daughter, I could be wrong about that, but I believe it was Brigitte's daughter, found, they all had suspicions, because he told them, they were all, they, they met him, and like, would see him once a year, maybe twice a year, over the years. But he said his name was, shit, I won't be able to remember it, I don't have it written down. It was something weird, like, Carl Kent, or something like that. Just a weird fake name. That's the only way they knew their father. Oh, Carew Kent. C-A-R-E-U.

• 1:56:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Make that shit up, man.

• 1:56:56Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, Carew Kent would show up and be like, it's me, your dad, Merry Christmas, bye. So, Brigitte's daughter finds love letters and photographs, puts it together, they all get their DNA tested, and then they find out there's, it's seven children that he fathered.

• 1:57:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude, was busy.

• 1:57:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And, it goes along with his eugenics thing of, I am the, I am the one that needs to propagate and have tons of kids. So I'm gonna go and have all these affairs and just have kids all over the place.

• 1:57:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I have to, it's for the fucking greater good.

• 1:57:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's for the greater good of fucking Germany. So, so, I mean, that's just kind of like, an interesting, weird, creepy thing, where it's just like, who is this person? Who is this mystery man that like, the world held up as this great human being because he made a solo flight across the Atlantic? The good part about this horrible story that basically rocked the nation and was the hugest story, like, it's all anybody talked about for years and years, is that the day after this baby was kidnapped, Congress passed a law making kidnapping a capital offense.

• 1:58:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:58:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's when they put it into effect, that if you take a person over state lines.

• 1:58:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right.

• 1:58:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's a capital offense. And, basically, that's, it was, and, it was called it then, and, you know, although remains popular, at the time, it was the crime of the century.

• 1:58:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible. They never found any, the other two thirds people that it could have been?

• 1:58:36Karen Kilgariff?

  They're in, if you watch this Nova special, there's a guy on there, and it reminds me of like, a lot of the Black Dahlia stuff, where there's a guy on there who's like, "My father knew a person, and he overheard this conversation, and it could have been this guy, and it could have been this guy."

• 1:58:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It feels like it would have been, that someone related to that, the dude, the one third dude.

• 1:58:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Brother, because he's a brother-in-law, it's always the brother-in-law.

• 1:58:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, because he was this German immigrant, there was other people on this city block that he lived on, that were from the same city that he was from in Germany. And, so the landlord of this guy who says his father overheard a conversation, that that man's landlord was from the same city as, as Hoppmann. So, the theory, it's very strong theory, but it is just theory, and it kind of goes all over, because it's basically, this guy's father overheard a conversation, where they all talked about, they used the word Inglewood, and they said the name Bruno, and da-da-da-da-da, and then there's pictures and whatever, but it's, nothing is conclusive, so, I didn't include it.

• 1:59:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And, they never found the money, the other money, right? Like, no one ever spent it?

• 1:59:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, but, there's the one guy that they suspected, one of the two people that they really, this guy knew, and they suspected, took a, well, at the time, would have been a $70,000 world cruise.

• 1:59:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:59:57Karen Kilgariff?

  With his wife, and there's pictures of him on the cruise. And, they came, he came back from Europe, after Hoppmann was, was found guilty. So basically, they took a cruise, got the fuck out of Dodge, went around the world on a boat, and then when they heard that they got the guy, and they were sending him to the lecture chair, they were like, okay, we can go back now.

• 2:00:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That was him, he's, I think it was him.

• 2:00:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 2:00:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That's crazy.

• 2:00:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, but, it's very sinister, and definitely unproven, but the idea that he just wanted this not perfect baby out of the house, is just so dark.

• 2:00:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Or maybe what they were gonna do is like, take, take the baby out, put him in a facility, something accidentally happened, and he died. Maybe they were gonna replace him with like, an adopted, perfect baby, that they were going to say was him.

• 2:00:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, maybe.

• 2:00:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 2:00:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Could be. I mean, when you see, there's lots of, they have lots of home video, and these black and white videos of this baby. It's not like this baby looks like anything is wrong.

• 2:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But I feel like, if he was under this pressure to be the perfect human being, and that that's the whole theory of eugenics, is like, perfection, perfection.

• 2:01:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can't have a baby that has turned-in knees, rickets, you know, like, that is even in any way developmentally slow.

• 2:01:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Maybe the baby that they found that was dead, wasn't Charlie. Maybe they put Charlie in a fucking institution, killed some other baby, to be like, nope, Charlie's dead, and then they could like, have this sick baby that they visit whenever they want.

• 2:01:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe.

• 2:01:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, I think that's it.

• 2:01:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You've done it.

• 2:01:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I did it.

• 2:01:44Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I mean, though?

• 2:01:45Georgia Hardstark?

  You've acted, and, you've added another twist. Yes, well, but that basically, they, they did it.

• 2:01:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's even darker, because then they're killing a baby.

• 2:01:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 2:01:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, I mean, the whole thing is, it would be nice to have some answers, for Christ's sake.

• 2:02:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's DNA test that shit. Go on genealogy.

• 2:02:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Dot net.

• 2:02:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Test that shit, right.

• 2:02:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Get on there.

• 2:02:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Um.

• 2:02:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, fuck, that was great.

• 2:02:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, thanks.

• 2:02:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 2:02:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it was fun. It was fun to watch a TV show, and then just write down what they say.

• 2:02:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I gotta, I gotta give that a shot sometime.

• 2:02:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I feel like I'm gonna get better about not doing that. I remember my friend who had never heard the podcast before, he listened to it, and we were at the work, we worked together, and we went to work the next day, and he goes, "You just retold a TV show?" And I was like, eh, yeah, I do that sometimes. I always, I have his voice in my head when I sit down to do that, but.

• 2:02:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's all I wanna do.

• 2:02:40Karen Kilgariff?

  We've been quite busy.

• 2:02:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen.

• 2:02:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Look.

• 2:02:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Look and listen.

• 2:02:44Karen Kilgariff?

  To us.

• 2:02:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Always.

• 2:02:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're back, Karen, any Lindbergh baby kidnapping story updates?

• 2:02:53Karen Kilgariff?

  There actually are. In 2025, a lawsuit was filed in New Jersey, aimed at allowing DNA testing of the stamps and envelopes used by the kidnapper, under the presumption, they would contain the perp's saliva. So the plaintiffs that filed that lawsuit are Jonathan Hegel, a University of Kansas professor, Michelle Downey, a retired school teacher, and Catherine Reed, an author and psychologist. And as of this rewind record date, the status of this lawsuit is unclear. But there was a previous lawsuit with a similar aim, but it was dismissed by a court, because it had, quote, "not sufficiently established a public interest in analytic testing," end quote. But hopefully, that's something that enough time has passed, where that's evolving.

• 2:03:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And, Buried Bones also covered the Lindbergh kidnapping on their podcast. It's an amazing episode, it's entitled, "An Aviator King's Ransom," and it's from 2022.

• 2:03:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Man, what if that one got solved? And like, solved, meaning no one thinks that what happened, actually happened, or did it, who knows?

• 2:03:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, like, the real answers, the real, what was going on. There's also three books that you could read about this. I mean, this is a true crime case that has been around, like, this is just early days true crime.

• 2:04:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:08Karen Kilgariff?

  The first book is "The Lindbergh Kidnapping: Suspect Number One, The Man Who Got Away" by Lee's Perlman. It was published in 2020. Then there's "The Little Lindy Is Kidnapped: How the Media Covered the Crime of the Century" by Thomas Doherty, also from 2020. And "The Rise and Fall of Charles Lindbergh," which was written by Candace Fleming, in when? In what year? That's right, 2020.

• 2:04:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man, but the like, the tension between the three of them.

• 2:04:35Karen Kilgariff?

  They see each other at like, Kirkus Reviews conferences, and the laser eyes.

• 2:04:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Alright, let's get into our fucking hoorays.

• 2:04:52Speaker 01

  Your emergency.

• 2:04:55Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 2:05:02Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 2:05:03Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 2:05:07Speaker 03

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 2:05:12Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 2:05:15Speaker 01

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC. Next day on Hulu.

• 2:05:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today. To help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started. Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently.

• 2:06:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. What's your fucking hooray this week, Georgia?

• 2:06:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, I have two. One of them is that I took Twitter off of my phone.

• 2:06:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, fucking hooray for you.

• 2:06:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. It didn't even cross my mind that that was an option. Like, I was like, I just can't stop looking and scrolling and seeing this news and bad news. And then when it's just like dumb news, like shit about Kanye, I get angry.

• 2:06:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I just got, and then it was like, someone wrote like, I'm taking Twitter off my phone. And I was like, oh, my God. I didn't even realize that that was an option. So I did it, and I'm having withdrawals, but I think it's for the best. And then my-

• 2:06:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you're missing some quality content from me because I'm procrastinating so much. All I can, all I can do is, is tweet. Cause I'm like, sitting there supposed to be turning something in.

• 2:06:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'm like, but I have this good idea.

• 2:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, let me know if anything good comes up. Let me know if there's any quality, uh, Golden State Killer updates.

• 2:07:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I will, for sure.

• 2:07:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the only place I was getting updates from. But then I couldn't stop checking. My other one is the TV show Barry.

• 2:07:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That I'm enjoying so much. It's so good. It's what's his name?

• 2:07:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Barry?

• 2:07:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Bill Hader.

• 2:07:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Barry. Bill Hader. It's, it's so good.

• 2:07:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And charming and funny and dark. I love it. Bill Hader plays a hitman who has to pretend he's not a hitman. He pretends he's an actor in LA. And I wanted to say it earlier, but it's basically every conversation we overhear. It's like, it's this TV show in that. It's so fucking funny.

• 2:07:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I liked, I've only seen the first two, but I loved it. And there's so many good, Henry Winkler, God bless his soul.

• 2:07:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So great in that. You know, I went to camp with his daughter. She was in a, we were in a cabin.

• 2:07:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Was she nice?

• 2:07:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah. Everyone wanted to be friends with her because she was the Fonz's daughter.

• 2:08:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that'd be tough.

• 2:08:03Georgia Hardstark?

  She was nice. I think she's like a preschool teacher now or something lovely. And you're just like-

• 2:08:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sure I've already bragged to you, but we, we, when we worked on Hollywood Squares, when we wrote for Ellen, we were just like two writers that came with her. And he was the EP. And we, when you do stuff like that of like, bring your own writers.

• 2:08:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:22Karen Kilgariff?

  There are people who are hired to write for that show that do not like it.

• 2:08:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause like, who the fuck are you to come in? And, but everyone was super nice to us, but I was always just like so uncomfortable. And Henry Winkler came and was like, are the Karens in here? And he acted like, he did the exact opposite of that. Like, he basically came and like pretended like we were special. And I just remember looking at him like, you, A, did not have to do this.

• 2:08:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  B, no one ever does this. And C, it's like he's the mayor of Hollywood. Like, he knows how beloved he is.

• 2:08:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, it's so funny is I remember as like a fifth grader, after, when camp was over and we all got taken back to the meeting where the parents would pick everyone up, like after two weeks of being away all crying. And then she was like, come meet my dad.

• 2:09:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:09:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And I look up and I'm like, Henry Winkler. And he shook my hand and looked down and be nice to me. Like, he was so nice.

• 2:09:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And he's so fucking funny.

• 2:09:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:18Karen Kilgariff?

  He like-

• 2:09:18Georgia Hardstark?

  He's so good on the show.

• 2:09:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, the part's written perfectly for him, but like, that intense acting, it's, he's just so good.

• 2:09:25Georgia Hardstark?

  He's ridic, yeah. It's a really, it's a really good show. Yeah. Okay, what's yours?

• 2:09:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I have to say mine, uh, mine is, I tweeted about this, but I was watching, my friend Bridger told me to watch, um, A Chef's Table Pastry, which is a new season.

• 2:09:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 2:09:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And I think it's slightly shorter than their normal ones. It seems like a little specialty one they put out. And the, there's, say there's five, the third or fourth one is this guy in Spain named Jordi Roca. And he is, basically has been named the top pastry chef in the world a bunch of times.

• 2:10:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Does he make those beautiful, they look like apples or pears and they're like glistening and gorgeous?

• 2:10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And then they crack open and there's stuff inside?

• 2:10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And there's like meringue and shit inside?

• 2:10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 2:10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I follow him on Instagram.

• 2:10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, like, he's super beautiful?

• 2:10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but his, I don't know. I didn't see him, but his pastries are gorgeous.

• 2:10:23Karen Kilgariff?

  No, they're, it's art. It's not, it's, it doesn't seem like a dessert in any, it doesn't look like you're supposed to eat it at all.

• 2:10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And the first one, so he's-

• 2:10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's super hot?

• 2:10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  He's, well, he's just, it's the thing, it's a thing I have.

• 2:10:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  He's very, um, swarthy with a big patrician nose and he, but like, but very soft eyes. And he talks about, so his older brothers own the restaurant. His, his one older brother's a sommelier. His older brother's the head chef. It's this Michelin, it was a one-star Michelin rated restaurant already. And they tried to get him to work there. He's 12 years younger than them.

• 2:11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So they were like, you have to come and be the waiter. Well, he was like a party guy and he was just like, whatever, I don't care. And he never really like caught on. And then he finally asked to get moved into the kitchen because the waiters worked so late and worked so hard, he didn't want to do it. So he's like, I'll be in the kitchen. And he was just kind of like messing around the kitchen, kind of sucking. And then he got moved into the pastry section because they had this, oh, shoot, I'm not going to be able to remember his name, but like, really world famous pastry chef who was like, here, have him be in my department. Then he's not being like hounded by his brothers all the time like he always is. And he can come and I'll teach him how to do pastry.

• 2:11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, then, and they show this thing he makes. It's called the, the city that they're, that this restaurant is in is like, it's called, I'll never remember how to say it. But it's like, I thought it was, I thought we were in Italy. The first two times I watched it, I assumed we were in Italy. Cause it all looked like Italy and felt like Italy. But it's Spain. And say it's like, it's Genoa or something like that. And the first thing they show that he made is called Flowers of Genoa. And he makes, he takes this strip of what looks like fruit roll up. And he cuts it out. It's the skyline of their city. And then he makes it, it's 3D. So he's having, part of it stand up.

• 2:12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  But then he paints the plate underneath so that when you look at it, it looks like this 3D trick of the eye where there's flowers. There's these little things, you have to see it. When I was watching it, they reveal, they do the thing where they show him making it. And then it just says Flowers of Genoa, or whatever the name of the city is. And I, on the couch went, oh, my God. Like, it's that incredible looking. And then he's like, he's talking in it about how his brother, he had a really big nose growing up. And his brothers would always make the joke of like calling him and then he would turn his head and everyone would duck. And it's all, the man is beautiful. And you can tell he doesn't know that or understand it.

• 2:13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's that thing you just go like, it's, that's how it is with everybody. Everybody thinks these horrible things about themselves because of their asshole bullies and siblings or whatever. And he's like this magical artist. So he base, his desserts basically made this restaurant go from like a one-star Michelin, which is a huge accomplishment anyway, to a three-star Michelin rated restaurant where it's just incredible. I'm telling you the whole episode and I don't need to.

• 2:13:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I love it. I'm gonna watch it.

• 2:13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I've had a ton of coffee. I just love him. I love, like, the idea that he, he didn't even know that that's what he wanted to do or that it wasn't like he was trained for it, like, all his life.

• 2:13:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  He like discovered it and is so good at it.

• 2:13:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I love it.

• 2:13:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it.

• 2:13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna watch it.

• 2:13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I love him. Also, he whispers the whole time, which is kind of my jam. Anyway, A Chef's Table is always, it's just one of the best made television shows there is.

• 2:14:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're, I'm gonna watch it.

• 2:14:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Yeah, that's it, right?

• 2:14:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking hooray.

• 2:14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back.

• 2:14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And we have fucking hooray updates. I love it.

• 2:14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Barry ran for four seasons and concluded in May of 2023. Man, I was really disappointed with that last episode.

• 2:14:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:14:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Now, we're far enough away that I can say it, like, oof, I don't know. The series received 44 Emmy nominations in both Hater and Henry Winkler won Emmys for their performances.

• 2:14:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, deserved.

• 2:14:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, my old camp buddy, Zoe Winkler-Rinas, is no longer a preschool teacher. In 2018, she co-founded This is About Humanity, a nonprofit supporting separated and reunified families and children at the US Mexican border.

• 2:14:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 2:14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  She's a really good person, you know, one of those.

• 2:14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. We need to, we need to put a little Post-it note on that. This is about humanity.

• 2:14:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 2:14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's amazing.

• 2:14:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and also, so the pastry chef I was talking about, Jordi Roca, from that episode of Chef's Table, had developed a neurological voice disorder called dystonia. He eventually lost most of his ability to speak. And then he, after years of treatment, he announced in 2023 that he had recovered his voice and he could read stories aloud to his young daughter.

• 2:15:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's beautiful.

• 2:15:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I love him. I love him. The restaurant that he and his brothers work at and run still holds three Michelin stars in 2026. So it's been like years.

• 2:15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's also the restaurant's 40th anniversary this year. So congratulations to El Celler de Can Roca. If we ever go to Spain, maybe we can go there.

• 2:15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 2:15:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so this episode was originally entitled Fingers Everywhere, of course. But if we were naming it today, we have lots of great choices.

• 2:15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Blur Glories? Blur Glories, for sure. It's gotta be Blur Glories.

• 2:15:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Blur Glories, that is perfection right there. Three bins, 17 actors.

• 2:16:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Loose cursive. That's a nice classic title.

• 2:16:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a good band name, for sure.

• 2:16:11Karen Kilgariff?

  True.

• 2:16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  A Glorious Time for Liars.

• 2:16:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Mrs. Sally Holes. There's, there's an embarrassment of riches here.

• 2:16:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. All right.

• 2:16:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and with that, that's this week's episode of Rewind.

• 2:16:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go say goodbye from 2018.

• 2:16:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Go to myfavoritemurder.com for whatever, I don't know, if you need something.

• 2:16:32Karen Kilgariff?

  For your needs.

• 2:16:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Thanks for listening.

• 2:16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And stay sexy.

• 2:16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 2:16:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 2:16:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye. Elvis, you want a cookie?

• 2:16:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 2:16:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye.

• 2:16:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 2:16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 2:16:58Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 2:17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 2:17:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 2:17:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 2:17:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, laundry stinks, literally. I mean, you could just keep buying new underwear, not that I've ever done that. Or maybe sort your clothes into piles based on how re-wearable or filthy they are. Or just use Arm & Hammer Deep Clean. It's made for real-life stinks and stains. So even if you don't do laundry the, quote, "right way," Deep Clean will knock it out. I mean, it is from the number-one liquid detergent brand that tackles more loads than any other. Come clean with Arm & Hammer Deep Clean, number-one claim based on total wash loads sold. This episode sponsored by Eureka Ergonomic. Why should your standing desk make your home feel like a fluorescent-lit cubicle?

• 2:18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  You've worked hard to make your space feel warm, clean, and intentional, so your desk should fit right in. That's why Eureka Ergonomic stands out. Eureka Ergonomic creates standing desks, ergonomic chairs, and workspace furniture that look beautiful in your home and feel great to use every day. Choose from designs that blend into your home while giving you the height adjustability and support you need every day. With Eureka Ergonomic, you're not choosing between style and comfort, you get both. Visit Eureka Ergonomic at eurekaergonomic.com. That's E-U-R-E-K-A, ergonomic, E-R-G-O-N-O-M-I-C, dot com. And find a standing desk that works hard without making your home feel like a cubicle.