545 - Don’t You Like Weirdos?

On today’s episode, Karen covers the case of Dr. John Schneeberger and Georgia tells the story of the Napoleonic Hoax. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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  911, what's your emergency?

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  Three bodies on the ground.

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  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

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  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

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• 1:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello and welcome.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  What's up, my favorite murder?

• 1:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Non-viewer listener?

• 1:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You need to know that Georgia's wearing a floral mechanic's jumpsuit.

• 1:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I am, with pockets.

• 2:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's major.

• 2:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 2:02Karen Kilgariff?

  All-in-one?

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  All-in-one, zip up, got to get naked to pee.

• 2:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what I was just going to say. Fully naked in public bathrooms to pee.

• 2:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Weirdness. But yeah, I feel like, I feel powerful and like capable.

• 2:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 2:14Georgia Hardstark?

  In this, I've never worn a jumpsuit before.

• 2:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's great.

• 2:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a company called Mixed by Nazrin, who makes these, and it's like their thing.

• 2:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Mixed, M-I-X.

• 2:22Georgia Hardstark?

  M-I-X.

• 2:23Karen Kilgariff?

  E-D. And Nazrin, N-A-Z-R-I-N.

• 2:26Georgia Hardstark?

  N-A-S-R-I-N.

• 2:27Karen Kilgariff?

  N-A-S-R-I-N.

• 2:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Kind of a thing.

• 2:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's like Hawaiian florals meets engineers.

• 2:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Functional.

• 2:36Karen Kilgariff?

  OSHA safety levels.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's going to go in my binder of what I wore.

• 2:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Good.

• 2:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So I do not repeat it.

• 2:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And at Christmas, do we get to review the binder?

• 2:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, and pick our favorites.

• 2:45Karen Kilgariff?

  While there's a fake fire playing on that.

• 2:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And like a, like a Memories song.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's just your outfits.

• 2:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And nobody notices or cares.

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, I'm 80% sure that while this is not the exact same shirt, it's the second version of this shirt that I wore to record mini-shows. I'm pretty sure it's the same one.

• 3:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't be like me. It's really fucking hard up here.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't.

• 3:10Georgia Hardstark?

  To like constantly be.

• 3:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I've heard. But you know, I couldn't, if I tried, I really couldn't. The outfit thing, when I was in high school, mattered a lot to me.

• 3:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And I think I broke my own brain.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:22Karen Kilgariff?

  With the body over consciousness. It was tough. There was esprit, full suit I wore once that it wakes me up in the middle of the night with how insane it was. And I thought it was like the height of style.

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I have to see it.

• 3:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I was just too far ahead of the real.

• 3:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Because everyone wears athleisure now. Was it like a sweatsuit?

• 3:41Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  What was it?

• 3:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It was like a little business suit, but it was white.

• 3:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Children in business suits.

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Children in, but it was the 80s, so that was kind of poochy, pleated in the pants.

• 3:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, just like unflattering.

• 3:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And insanely long in the jacket blazer.

• 3:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Place around children.

• 3:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so good. It was white. Well, I was like 16.

• 4:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 4:01Karen Kilgariff?

  White with geometric patterns that were pastel. So like a little turquoise triangle and a little orange square.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 4:09Karen Kilgariff?

  All over it.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta find this. Fan cult or listeners?

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Who had this?

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Please find it.

• 4:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Please send in your picture of being a teen in your esprit business suit.

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, shoulder pads.

• 4:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a time, and I've served my time.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  You have.

• 4:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'm.

• 4:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't need to do anything.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Fading into the Gen X background.

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Congratulations.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 4:31Georgia Hardstark?

  It looks, it looks not stressful and not pointless and tedious.

• 4:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Actually, no, it's fun. I like dressing up and wearing clothes.

• 4:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's your thing.

• 4:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Having a cute outfit on.

• 4:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I would say it's your true passion.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I do love it. It does change my personality and change my like, what's the word?

• 4:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Aura?

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  The way I feel that day.

• 4:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Completely.

• 4:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Sit up a little straighter.

• 4:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You get to test out all the different nights at your round table.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, this is girly engineer Georgia.

• 5:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 5:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Gasoline station attendant, gas station attendant?

• 5:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Gas station attendant, but make it tropical.

• 5:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But make it 95 degrees.

• 5:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  With 80% humidity.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. I have a corrections corner, speaking of.

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a great transition.

• 5:15Georgia Hardstark?

  When I did this story about Paul Franzak, the baby who was kidnapped as a baby.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 5:21Georgia Hardstark?

  This is how it goes. I forgot to mention that The Knife actually did an episode on it.

• 5:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 5:27Georgia Hardstark?

  They did a two-part episode on it.

• 5:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 5:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Called Kidnapped at Birth, which of course, they did it wonderfully, highly recommend. Check that out. And it aired just this past May.

• 5:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, great.

• 5:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay. We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Here are some highlights.

• 5:42Karen Kilgariff?

  This week over on Bananas, Kurt and Scotty cover Katy Perry's performance recently where she got stuck in a giant bottle, also a stolen Sinclair dinosaur, and a French fry that caused a gas station crash.

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God. Over on Brief Recession, Michael and Melissa discuss the ongoing Lindsay Clancy trial and what kind of lawyer a trans person should hire. Plus, Emmy award-winning actor, writer, and comedian Brian Safi joins them in studio, the best, to share behind-the-scenes stories from his off-Broadway show, Are You Mad at Me?

• 6:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So brilliant, I love Brian Safi so much.

• 6:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you following the Lindsay Clancy trial?

• 6:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I only just heard about it, like just learned about it a couple days ago. So I'm like trying to catch up. It's that kind of thing where people are already being like, this is wrong and that.

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 6:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Like people are already angry and accusing. So I'm like trying to follow and get the story before I get the opinions.

• 6:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And every day, something new, some little detail comes out that is interesting, or curious, or suspicious.

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Also, just on the Brief Recession thing, Michael just announced yesterday he is one of the cast members of the new season of Traitors.

• 6:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Unreal.

• 6:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It is.

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  He's going to be so good.

• 6:47Karen Kilgariff?

  He's going to be so good.

• 6:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I hope he's a traitor.

• 6:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm so excited.

• 6:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That man is so delightful.

• 6:54Georgia Hardstark?

  He's everything.

• 6:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So go listen to Brief Recession, and he will tell you all about it. Over on Disgraceland, Jake tells the story of the Smashing Pumpkins, your favorite band, Georgia. From a drug-related death to competing band narratives, this episode explores the strange legacy of Billy Corgan and company.

• 7:09Georgia Hardstark?

  They are messy notoriously. That's going to be really interesting.

• 7:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He always, it's like he used to fight with Courtney Love, and there was just always something going on.

• 7:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And then finally, on I Said No Gifts, Bridger keeps his cool when Hayden Johnson shows up with a gift. Then the two discuss cruise ships, Eagle Scouts, and grave robbing.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like us.

• 7:32Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, you go first, right?

• 7:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm very excited to tell you the story today because it is classic true crime.

• 7:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 7:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's, to me, an infamous Forensic Files episode about it, which is when Maren and Molly pitched it. I was like, oh my God, I know exactly what you're talking about.

• 7:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Which one?

• 7:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's one of them. Okay, but just a warning to the listeners, this case involves not only sexual assault, but child sexual abuse. So please take care when you're listening to this, and please take care of who's listening to this. You, of course, may have seen this already on Forensic Files. In that episode, they only refer to this victim by her first name, which is Candy, so that's what I'm going to do too.

• 8:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So this story takes place in the early 90s in a rural Canadian town in southeastern Saskatchewan called Kipling. It's a little quiet town, there's more livestock than people, it's that kind of place. And it's Halloween of 1993. A 23-year-old woman named Candy is working her shift at a local gas station. And as she's going about her day, it's business as usual, until her ex-boyfriend stops by. The two get into an argument, and it escalates to the point where her ex drives out of the parking lot, and she runs after his truck and kicks it and puts a dent in it. So it's a bad fight. We don't know what it was about, but Candy's really upset. She wants to go talk to her best friend about it, who works over at Kipling's hospital. So she leaves the gas station, she drives over there.

• 8:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But when she gets there, she's told her friend isn't working that night. Candy is so visibly upset that the nurse she talks to suggests that she talk to a doctor. So this is a small town, so small there's two practicing doctors in the town. And Candy knows the one that's working that night. It's 32-year-old John Schneeberger, who the locals affectionately refer to as Dr. John. So nine months prior, he delivered Candy's baby, so she trusts him completely. So when he says he's going to give her something to calm her nerves, you know, it sounds great to her, he leaves the room, he comes back in with a long needle. Candy is like, she assumed it would be some pills and not a shot, but she's not really concerned about it until he gives her the medication.

• 9:39Karen Kilgariff?

  She's immediately overcome with severe dizziness to the point that the doctor has to help her walk from the chair she's sitting in over to the exam table. When she gets there, she just falls face-first onto it. She is, she will later say, quote, "I had no control over my muscles. It's like all my muscles left, and I was just this piece of jelly falling over. I tried to scream, but nothing would come out but a croaking voice that a frog would make." End quote. She comes two hours later, knowing something is deeply wrong. This is Candy's story of what happened to her that day and her hard-fought battle for justice against the doctor she trusted with her life.

• 10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 10:18Karen Kilgariff?

  The main sources used for this story are archival articles from several Canadian newspapers and the Forensic Files episode that's mentioned above. I won't say the title right now. The rest of the sources are in the show notes.

• 10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know which one you're talking about right after that. I want to.

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't, or you do?

• 10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't, but I want to say, is it the one that this? But I don't want to spoil it if it is.

• 10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want to do it just to get it off your chest?

• 10:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it the one where he uses his blood?

• 10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, this one is like, I remember it perfectly. That's why I.

• 10:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It's one of the, it's one of the ones where as a teen watching Forensic Files, your mind goes, I didn't understand people could or would do things like this.

• 10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Like, that is so far beyond of like decent, normal people.

• 11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, here we go.

• 11:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we go.

• 11:05Karen Kilgariff?

  So for everybody that's like, we don't know what Forensic Files is.

• 11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Good.

• 11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Grow up. So it's Halloween night, 1993. Candy wakes up in the same exam room, but now she's alone and she is still slumped over the examination table. She immediately suspects that she has been sexually assaulted from behind. So that's the position she was left in.

• 11:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 11:27Karen Kilgariff?

  On top of being drugged and disoriented, she never saw her attacker's face. She explains it on Forensic Files this way, quote, "When a dentist freezes your gums and he's pulling your tooth out, you can't feel the pain from the tooth, but what you can feel is the pressure of the tooth moving back and forth." That's the only way I can describe it.

• 11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, god.

• 11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. A few hours later, as she gets ready to leave the hospital, she sees Dr. John and she asks him, quote, "What the hell was that drug you gave me last night?" It turns out it was Versed, which is a fast-acting drug that's known to cause short-term amnesia, and it's used in clinical settings for severe anxiety or to relax patients before operations. It's very common to get a dose of Versed, and that's that kind of like when you're in the hallway, just chill and wait, and then you don't care, everything's fine.

• 12:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's start with something a little lower, can we?

• 12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So, given how upset Candy had been the night before, it's not strange that the doctor would give her Versed. That in and of itself is not the craziest thing in the world, although it's very strong. But it's Dr. John's response to this question that she raises that is a red flag, and that is, quote, "Why? Did it give you wild dreams?" Immediate fury. So he starts talking about the hospital's, quote, "wanderers," or the elderly patients with cognitive issues who get out of their beds and wander the hospital at night.

• 12:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 12:50Karen Kilgariff?

  As he's explaining this, everything is starting to click into place for Candy. She realizes she is standing face to face with her rapist.

• 12:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 12:58Karen Kilgariff?

  She'll later say, quote, "I knew that I was gonna have a hell of a fight on my hands because he's already covering up."

• 13:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 13:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, he's just pulling in these, "It could have been this, it could have been this. Look at all of these variables."

• 13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is so incredible that Candy was still like, nope, I know, because there's so many, you're taught to gaslight yourself to be like, that must be what it is. You know, I can't argue with this person.

• 13:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 13:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe they're right. Like, a lot of women, that's what we do.

• 13:24Karen Kilgariff?

  But in doing it, sometimes it's like, we really take apart logic, because it's like, the last person she saw with a big needle full of medicine, the idea that she's putting two and two together.

• 13:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not only not crazy, but then he immediately is like, giving her that like, what, why, what's the problem? Like, we know that personality, you've seen it before. But of course, that's meaningless. This is one woman's opinion.

• 13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So she leaves the hospital and she drives to a different town to go to a clinic somewhere else, not in her town, and gets a rape kit done, so that she can, quote, "find out if this really did happen, or am I going nuts?"

• 14:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And how old is she?

• 14:01Karen Kilgariff?

  She's in her mid-20s.

• 14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. That's so brave.

• 14:04Karen Kilgariff?

  She's really young.

• 14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Candy explains to the person taking her report that she has not been sexually active for several weeks, yet the vaginal swab they collect from her tests positive for semen and also her jeans and underwear do. So with that evidence in hand, she goes to the authorities to formally accuse Dr. Schneeberger of rape. A police investigation is opened, and soon word begins to spread through the town of Kipling. It will surprise no one, that many people do not believe Candy. Just immediately on hearing this, just, it's totally impossible, there's no way. Some think she's simply mistaken about her attacker's identity, but others think she's targeting Dr. John either because she's obsessed with him and she's getting revenge because he doesn't feel the same

• 14:49Karen Kilgariff?

  way, or they're secretly involved, she's trying to extort money from him. It's all the gossip and the usual. But it's all on her.

• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And Dr. John is a trusted physician, who despite only being in his late 20s when he moved to town from South Africa in 1987 to open his practice, and in the six year sense, he's proved to be a very competent doctor that this town has embraced. So he was kind of an outsider, and he was young, and then he proved himself, and everyone's like, we love him, he's great.

• 15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:19Karen Kilgariff?

  An ambulance driver will tell a local paper that, quote, "I would estimate that at least 25 heart patients are alive today because of Dr. John."

• 15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  But you can still be a fucking predator.

• 15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't matter how many good things you've done.

• 15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  My grandmother will roll over her grave, but it's like, and let me introduce you to the Catholic Church.

• 15:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 15:38Karen Kilgariff?

  People doing all the things that are right by the book.

• 15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 15:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Sending it up to the Lord.

• 15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, let's not, let's not anymore.

• 15:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And we don't, and we won't.

• 15:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god, I'm in so much trouble. My father would.

• 15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you wrong?

• 15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm in no way wrong.

• 15:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Who are you wrong?

• 15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, my mother would be like, that's right.

• 15:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 15:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, Dr. John has a picture-perfect home life. After he moved to Canada, he fell in love with a woman who was a single mother of two daughters. Her name was Lisa. And John and Lisa got married, then they welcomed two of their own children to the family. Lisa will later tell The Globe and Mail newspaper that, quote, "Living in a small place like Kipling, not a day went by when people didn't stop me in the street and say, 'Oh, you're so lucky to be married to such a wonderful man.'" So it's the world of, you know, the whole town loves this person. So even though there's a ton of goodwill towards Dr. John, after Candy comes forward, he is eager to clear his name. So he cooperates with investigators, and he points out that Versed can mess with

• 16:38Karen Kilgariff?

  a patient's memory and perception, and can even cause what he calls, quote, "erotic hallucinations." Now, it turns out, sexual hallucinations are a side effect of the drug, but rare. The doctor also volunteers to provide a blood sample so investigators can test his DNA against the DNA extracted from those samples collected in Candy's rape kit.

• 17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And when analysts compare the two, they determine that the blood sample and the semen sample did not come from the same person.

• 17:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 17:07Karen Kilgariff?

  But Candy knows she's right.

• 17:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That she still is like, no, I'm right. The blood sample shows it's not a match. And she still insists.

• 17:16Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, yeah.

• 17:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so brave.

• 17:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It's the kind of knowing where it's like, a lot of things in life are like this. They won't believe you, they won't be behind you. You've just got to do it and go through it.

• 17:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And then at the other side, people will be like, oh, I didn't know, and you know.

• 17:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Do it anyway.

• 17:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever. You've got to do it anyway. This woman is so cool. I mean, watch the Forensic Files if you haven't seen it. She's a badass. So she wonders maybe if there's an issue with his blood sample, or maybe that something happened during the draw to compromise it. And this is the early 90s.

• 17:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so early with all this stuff that like, it became this like, well, this is the defining, you know, this will get the verdict one way or the other.

• 17:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But at this point, it was like, early, it was before you could identify people through DNA. It was simply matching, so you just had to match DNA to DNA.

• 18:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:06Karen Kilgariff?

  The person of interest, they had to have their sample to compare it to the sample they had.

• 18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That was the only way they could use DNA.

• 18:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So the doctor actually volunteers to give another sample, because he's such a great man in the community.

• 18:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 18:19Karen Kilgariff?

  For this one, the police officers supervise a registered nurse as she injects a needle into the doctor's arm. As soon as she fills a vial with blood, that vial is sealed and taken directly to a forensics lab for testing. And once again, that DNA comes back and it does not match.

• 18:37Karen Kilgariff?

  911, what's your emergency?

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants. 911 Nashville returns.

• 18:47Speaker 02

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Three bodies on the ground. With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Oh, sin swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you want to be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality, because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com.

• 19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. So it's important to note that throughout all of this, Dr. John's wife, Lisa, is standing by him, and she believes in her husband's innocence, which could not have been easy in that tiny town. Because there's nothing people love more than a nice hard turn of, you know, like, you were the one I was jealous of, and now look what happened to you.

• 20:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So with the second blood test result, Dr. John Schneeberger is cleared as a suspect, finally. But there's one inconvenient fact that remains, and prosecutor Dean Sinclair will put this this way. He says, quote, "Versed can account for all sorts of hallucinations, possibly, but it can't produce semen."

• 20:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 20:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And according to Candy, the last time she had intercourse was weeks before the incident.

• 20:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so meanwhile, rumors are flying around Kipling about Candy, and they're so bad, there's so many, they're so loud, that she actually has to leave town. But she has no intention of giving up, because despite these test results, she absolutely knows who her rapist is. So then, in the face of all of this, the police investigation goes cold, because it's like, we don't have the evidence. We've tested it, that's now the evidence.

• 21:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:07Karen Kilgariff?

  But Candy is ready. She hires a private investigator to take over. This P I. basically knows that he needs to get a DNA sample. So he breaks into Dr. John's car. Illegal.

• 21:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right off the bat. Coming in hot.

• 21:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Coming hot. And also, now the thing that you're gonna get is inadmissible in court.

• 21:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 21:27Karen Kilgariff?

  But he wants to find some of the doctor's DNA. He sees a few strands of hair on the headrest, but there's no root attached, and that's where the DNA is in hair strands, so you have to have those root bulbs. But then he sees a tube of chapstick and grabs it. He takes it to a private forensic lab, where technicians successfully extract DNA from it. And when they compare the chapstick sample to the semen sample from Candy's rape kit, it's a match.

• 21:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so crazy that they continued on this trajectory of, it doesn't matter, it's him. Because I feel like so many people would be like, it's, he's clearly not, especially, even, even her, who in her mind knows it, would gaslight herself into thinking, I am imagining things.

• 22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  But haven't you ever had a moment with a person where it's just like, you know they're fucking with you? It's the gleam in the eye of like, what, did you have a weird dream? Or it's like, it's a recognizable, like, personality type.

• 22:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Then, and it isn't, and I think those types of people get off on the fact that it's like, only you and I know what I'm doing.

• 22:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, I never said that, or you're remembering it wrong.

• 22:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, yeah. And she's, I think, maybe, isn't the kind of person that does doubt herself. She's just like, go fuck yourself.

• 22:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 22:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, her quote is, "I knew it all along. It wasn't a shock that something was gonna match, but it was a relief." So it's a win, but of course, bittersweet, because it's inadmissible evidence. But the information does raise new suspicions around the doctor, and it becomes the basis for the civil suit that Candy files against him. She takes him to court in 1996, three years after her alleged assault, but she's still only in her mid-20s. Around the same time, the investigation into that rape, which went cold, kicks back into gear, and Dr. John is once again asked to provide a new blood sample. This time, the draw takes place at the police department, and it's being filmed as they drive.

• 23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And so this footage is in the forensic files. And do you remember his beautiful butter yellow sweater and his big 90s glasses that he's wearing?

• 23:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know that you say so, yeah.

• 23:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, the woman who's conducting the draw, her name's Jean Roney, and she explains to the doctor that since she only needs a small amount of blood from him today, she's just gonna prick his fingertip for the blood. And he says, "Oh, no, sorry. I have a disease that causes me to bruise very badly on my hands, so I would rather have you draw the blood from right here at this arm."

• 23:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's no rules or, you know, regulations about where the blood has to be drawn from, so she just takes him at his word.

• 24:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, so, I know what's coming. If you don't know what's coming, it's gross. Just FYI, it's like...

• 24:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And she inserts the needle into his, yeah. "Oh, sorry, I should have given some sort of..." People have serious needle issues.

• 24:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Needle and blood issues.

• 24:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Hopefully, since this is an entirely blood-based story.

• 24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I feel like, up until now, it's what he does that is so fucked up. What's coming?

• 24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, get ready, get ready. And get out of the room if you can't handle it, so...

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  But don't turn it off, we need the download.

• 24:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah, just turn the volume down and watch something else. We need the streams. We don't need anyone. So Jean turns his forearm over, looking for a suitable vein. And as she does, she notices something. She'll later say, quote, "The vein was larger, or appeared much larger than I would have expected. I thought it was a little unusual."

• 24:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 24:50Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. Even weirder than that, when she injects the needle into that vein that she finds, no blood comes out. She pulls it back out, she tries again, and in a different spot, still no blood. Into a vein.

• 25:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:05Karen Kilgariff?

  On the third try, she finally manages to draw a little bit of blood, but it looks off.

• 25:11Georgia Hardstark?

  A big ol' vein sticking out of his arm?

• 25:14Karen Kilgariff?

  In the footage taken of the procedure that day, with Dr. John out of frame, so presumably out of the room, that's what it looks like, is that it's after the procedure. You can hear Jean say, quote, "It's a little strange. The blood doesn't really look fresh. I don't know."

• 25:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:31Karen Kilgariff?

  The blood doesn't look fresh.

• 25:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Fresh is like, probably bright red, right? And it's darker?

• 25:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Blue or darker.

• 25:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's either darker or lighter.

• 25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Or thinner, or...

• 25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, they can tell the difference between blood. Yeah, they can tell that.

• 25:45Karen Kilgariff?

  They must, they're doctors.

• 25:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, it makes me think, making a murderer, they found the blood on the steering wheel that had clearly already been exposed to air, instead of coming straight from something, something.

• 25:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 26:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It wasn't fresh blood, and they could tell.

• 26:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. They know all these things.

• 26:03Georgia Hardstark?

  They know things, doctors and scientists.

• 26:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so this blood sample is immediately sent to a lab for processing, and analysts determine that this blood is too degraded to be analyzed by DNA. So now the police are forced to go back to Candy and tell her they can't use the sample that he has provided, because it's too degraded. And of course, Candy is furious. This is a huge...

• 26:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not her fucking problem. Go back and get more, motherfuckers.

• 26:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, but I think it was like, the one-shot deal of like, oh, sorry if you can't use, whatever. So, it's a huge blow to her civil case and to the newly resurrected criminal case for this rape. And both of them then stall out, because that was like, their chance. But the combination of the odd degraded blood sample and the chapstick for the DNA from Dr. John's car has finally made it into the awareness of the police, and they have become very suspicious of him. But they don't have any hard evidence to justify an arrest. Until April of 1997, more than four years since Candy's alleged assault. And just when it's beginning to seem hopeless for her, there's a break in the case. And it's a terrible one that comes from Dr. John's own family.

• 27:15Karen Kilgariff?

  His 15-year-old stepdaughter finally confides to her mother that Dr. John has been sexually assaulting her since 1994, when she was 12 years old.

• 27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 27:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She accounts how he would come into her bedroom at night, give her an injection that would incapacitate her, and then rape her.

• 27:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit, that's...

• 27:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrific and devastating news, especially considering how Lisa stood by her husband in the wake of another woman's rape accusations. So she immediately goes into her husband's home office and starts looking around, and she finds a box filled with condoms, needles, and drugs, including Versed. And suddenly, the murky picture of who her husband is now comes into sharp focus. The allegations are true. Lisa will tell a journalist, quote, "I loved that man. He was my soulmate, my best friend. We were going to grow old together. I felt sick. I still blame myself. Maybe if I had believed Candy, none of this would have happened to my daughter."

• 28:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Guilt.

• 28:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the saddest sentence.

• 28:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so horrible. It's so unfair.

• 28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Just one destructive man's actions.

• 28:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's lying and psychopathic. And it's always the woman who pay the price. So Lisa goes to the police and tells them what her incredibly brave daughter told her, and Dr. Schneeberger is finally arrested. And now he has to take yet another DNA test. But this time, the blood is drawn from his finger. They also take a sample of his hair, root bulb and all, and they swab the inside of his mouth. And when each sample is tested, they all match the sample from Candy's rape kit. No big reveal here. Just finally, the justice. When Candy learns about Lisa's daughter's allegations against John, she says, quote, "I screamed, I bawled. I was pretty disgusted, because all of these years,

• 29:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm fighting to get the truth out, but also to make sure it didn't happen to anybody else." So authorities still can't figure out how Dr. John managed to full multiple DNA tests over the years during draws that were monitored by police and overseen by skilled technicians and nurses.

• 29:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And she even said, "It doesn't look right." And they didn't follow through with...

• 29:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, because, you know, what could that be? Your vein doesn't look right.

• 29:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a crazy, like, thing. Well, so...

• 29:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Now I know.

• 29:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It takes until November 1999 for John to confess. And it happens at his trial, where on the stand, he admits that he surgically inserted what's called a Penrose drain under the skin of his left arm. All you people who don't know, like us, it's a routine plastic medical drain that's inserted post-op to prevent fluid from building up near a healing incision. So he stole blood from one of his unsuspecting patients.

• 30:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he filled the drain with it and surgically implanted it near the real veins in the crook of his arm.

• 30:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Good God.

• 30:16Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the arm-

• 30:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Diabolical, evil.

• 30:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Just insane.

• 30:20Georgia Hardstark?

  To think like, you know, I'm gonna get out of this awful thing that I did. That's all my fault. I'm gonna do the most diabolically insanely evil thing.

• 30:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and my thing is, how many other patients did he do it to?

• 30:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 30:33Karen Kilgariff?

  How many other women did he do it to that just didn't know? And like, that he clearly, this was like, well, this is what I'm doing. So I better make a plan to get out of it.

• 30:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 30:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So this would be the arm, obviously, he'd offered to the medical professionals who drew his blood, who would never think twice about-

• 30:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:52Karen Kilgariff?

  -why it would be one arm over the other. Also, this is why the sample was so degraded. In 1996, it was genuinely old stale blood that had been sitting in his arm.

• 31:02Georgia Hardstark?

  He just fucking put this thing in there and left it in there. Oh, my God.

• 31:05Karen Kilgariff?

  There's my innocence draw.

• 31:07Georgia Hardstark?

  A depravity.

• 31:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he was gonna do it again.

• 31:10Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like, I know they're gonna come back, cause I'm fucking guilty.

• 31:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So insanely enough, despite this admission, Dr. Schneeberger maintains his innocence. In fact, he offers that maybe Candy broke into his home, stole a used condom, and used it to frame him.

• 31:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not how semen works.

• 31:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, also, it's for what? What did she get?

• 31:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 31:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He defends the implanted tube of blood by claiming he was just trying to protect himself against her false allegations.

• 31:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Bro.

• 31:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You went too far. But in the end, Dr. John and his lawyers are no match for Candy. She will later say on this episode of Forensic Files, quote, "I was a bulldog on the stand. I kicked his lawyer's ass." And he's supposed to be the best lawyer in southern Saskatchewan. Best defense lawyer? I showed him who's boss.

• 31:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you did, Candy.

• 31:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, like, these are the quotes you wanna be reading in a story like this. She is so legendary. So it's November of 1999, and this trial lasts three weeks. And at the end, Dr. John Schneeberger is found guilty on multiple charges, including sexual assault, administering a stupefying drug, and obstructing justice. He's sentenced to six years in prison, and he's stripped of his medical license. Thank God. This has all taken seven long years, but Candy has finally won.

• 32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we just talk about that his sentence is shorter than how long it took to get justice? Well, I know, I know, I know.

• 32:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And then-

• 32:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And then-

• 32:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Late 2003, after serving four years of his sentence, he is granted parole and released from prison because it's just rape. Not long after that, it is discovered that Dr. Schneeberger, or sorry, just regular old John Schneeberger-

• 32:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:48Karen Kilgariff?

  -has failed to disclose being investigated for sexual assault during his lengthy naturalization process. So his Canadian citizenship is deemed unlawfully obtained, and it is revoked. He's deported back to South Africa. And from what we know, he's still there to this day. He would be in his late 60s. In Canada, Candy has to contend with the trauma of sexual assault and both the system and her community failing her. But she never backs down. She develops a film project called I Accuse, based on her experiences, and it premieres on Canadian television right around the time that John Schneeberger is released from prison in 2003.

• 33:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 33:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And she says she hopes that movie will, quote, "Inspire other survivors to come forward and face their accusers regardless of their apparent standing in the community."

• 33:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 33:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the story of Candy's unmasking of the rapist, Dr. John Schneeberger.

• 33:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Candy.

• 33:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shoot, we have pictures.

• 33:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's see.

• 33:48Karen Kilgariff?

  There's that yellow sweater.

• 33:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 33:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's Jean-

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 33:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Going into the arm that he suggested.

• 33:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at him, he's like, it's just so evil.

• 33:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And also just so bizarre. It's that kind of thing where it's like, it's so out of the realm of any possibility or ever having happened before. Where it's like, I suspect the vein in your arm.

• 34:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. This Ned Flanders-looking motherfucker. I don't, he seems, you know?

• 34:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Those are the ones.

• 34:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 34:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep your eye peeled.

• 34:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Great job.

• 34:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like that's just been on the to-do list for this podcast for 10 years.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I couldn't believe when they pitched it. I was like, wait.

• 34:29Georgia Hardstark?

  We have it.

• 34:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I love that one.

• 34:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know, I feel like this podcast is a little bit like, literally just true crime TV show retell. And that's how I've always treated it. Cause it's like, this is where I got all of this from.

• 34:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 34:42Karen Kilgariff?

  I can remember seeing this the first time and just being like, I'm sorry, what?

• 34:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, we wouldn't be where we are without, like, forensic files and unsolved mysteries and-

• 34:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Cold case files.

• 34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  America's Most Wanted as a fucking eight-year-old. Just being like, I'm gonna catch that guy, for sure.

• 34:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Leave it to me.

• 34:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, give me that phone number again, cause I've got this.

• 35:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I get it one more time? By the end of the show? What's the reward?

• 35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe you can help solve a mystery.

• 35:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's a strange life.

• 35:11Georgia Hardstark?

  It truly is.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  911, what's your emergency? We need help, they're everywhere. We think they're murder wantons. 911 Nashville returns.

• 35:24Speaker 02

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 35:26Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Oh, since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Brian Philippi joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Whether you're buying, renting, or selling, Zillow can help make your someday today to help find a home that fits where you are in life, or that apartment that's a little closer to where you wanna be. Zillow has the right information, tools, and support to help turn your future home into a reality. Because someday starts today. Visit zillow.com/today to get started.

• 36:09Speaker 03

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 36:37Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, I have one that's not at all anything like what you just said, which is-

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I'm leaving. I love when my homework is done and then you have to do your homework.

• 36:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Mine's easier than yours' my homework.

• 36:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 36:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's short, cause it takes place a long fucking time ago. In 1814.

• 36:53Karen Kilgariff?

  My favorite.

• 36:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Your favorite. It's a financial hoax. It scandalized the London stock market, and it led to an early instance of government regulation in the world of finance. Your favorite world.

• 37:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I live there. I, it's natural to me.

• 37:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You vacation there, you have a vacation home.

• 37:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I have all these friends and family there.

• 37:12Georgia Hardstark?

  In the world of finance. This is the story of the Napoleonic hoax, sometimes known as the Great Stock Market Fraud of 1814.

• 37:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yeah.

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  You know everything about this. You wrote your dissertation on it. Okay. The main source for the story is a book called Napoleon is Dead, with an exclamation mark, by Richard Dale, and the rest of the sources are in the show notes. Here we go. What?

• 37:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You're gonna take notes? Are you taking notes?

• 37:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna take a little note.

• 37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Just out of nowhere, something, you're taking notes?

• 37:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you writing?

• 37:41Karen Kilgariff?

  B minus.

• 37:44Georgia Hardstark?

  B minus? That's really good. I can just make that into a little plus and take it home.

• 37:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And there you go, Mom.

• 37:51Georgia Hardstark?

  We are in Dover, England. It's famous for its cliffs.

• 37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  They're white.

• 37:55Georgia Hardstark?

  The cliffs of Dover, yep. They're made of white chalk that plunge into the Strait of Dover. It's the narrowest part of the English Channel between England and France. These days, around Dover is where you can get on a ferry that will take you to Calais, France. And it's between these two points that the Eurostar train runs through the Channel Tunnel.

• 38:16Karen Kilgariff?

  The Channel! We love it.

• 38:19Georgia Hardstark?

  But this story takes place long before the Channel. I just really wanted us to yell Channel together. And I did it.

• 38:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And we did it.

• 38:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Good night. Thank you for listening.

• 38:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Good night.

• 38:30Georgia Hardstark?

  In 1814, it's around 1 a.m. on the morning of Monday, February 21st. A man is seen wandering the seaside front street in Dover. In London, the stock market will open in nine hours, which is just about as much time as it'll take you to get to the capital from Dover in a horse-drawn carriage if you change horses frequently. I didn't know that was a thing.

• 38:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Fresh horses, that's what it's all about.

• 38:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Horse to horse to horse.

• 38:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 38:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't realize.

• 38:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't want some old tired horse.

• 38:56Georgia Hardstark?

  No, horses like, can I high five someone? High five another horse and...

• 38:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, this is taking forever.

• 39:02Georgia Hardstark?

  This mysterious man is tall and wearing a long gray coat and what looks like a red military uniform.

• 39:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Paul Dark.

• 39:08Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 39:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a British show about a guy.

• 39:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, got it.

• 39:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's wearing a gray coat. Paul Dark.

• 39:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'll watch it. We need a show. He bangs on the door of the Ship Inn, but gets impatient and then starts banging on the door of the pub next door, which is called the Packet Boat. Probably means something. I didn't look it up. The owners of both establishments come to the door around the same time. I'm sure they have those like nightcaps, the sleepy caps on.

• 39:32Karen Kilgariff?

  You, sir. You there?

• 39:34Georgia Hardstark?

  The long, like, dress.

• 39:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And big old mutton chops.

• 39:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The owners of both establishments come to the door and everyone moves inside the Ship Inn to have a conversation with this mysterious man. The man, who doesn't introduce himself, says, quote, "I have this last hour been landed on a beach from France after traveling for two nights, and I'm the bearer of dispatches that are the most important to be brought to England these past 20 years. I must have horses, and in the meantime, I would be obliged if you would bring me a pen and paper so I can inform the authorities of what has passed." The pub and owner and innkeeper are like, okay, what the fuck's going on?

• 40:11Karen Kilgariff?

  This never happens.

• 40:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm paraphrasing. And the officer responds with, quote, "Do not pester me with questions." You always say in these scams, they make you hurry. There's no time to sink.

• 40:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the fake authority, hurry, and like the importance, like, you don't know what's going on, but this you have to do because it's so important.

• 40:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. At this point, the other guests at the inn have heard the ruckus and come downstairs, and the mysterious stranger has introduced himself as Colonel de Berg. And at some point, he gives an initial, a first initial of R, but it's unclear if he ever gives a first name. Then he says, quote, "I am the bearer of sensational and glorious news, the best that could possibly be wished, but I cannot say more." See credits. "I must ask you to arrange with great urgency an express horse and rider to carry a message to the admiral at Deal, as well as a carriage to take me to London. For the present, I need pen, paper, and ink, and I would be obliged if you could also provide me some refreshment to sustain me," end quote. A little demanding for a stranger in the middle of the night.

• 41:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Pen, paper, food, drink.

• 41:13Georgia Hardstark?

  The Colonel is given pen, paper.

• 41:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Food and drink.

• 41:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And a bottle of sherry.

• 41:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 41:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yes.

• 41:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever, like, drank sherry in a real way?

• 41:20Georgia Hardstark?

  People do that, right? Like, just like a little thimbleful of sherry?

• 41:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I think so.

• 41:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I always imagine it must be good if people, like, love it so much.

• 41:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. Listeners, let us know what the sherry experience is all about.

• 41:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it really sweet? It's like cooking wine?

• 41:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I think it's cooking wine, and I've always seen it as like people taking a little, a little nip of it in the kitchen.

• 41:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It seems really piefulutin and classy.

• 41:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I guess we'll find out. Rich, murdery notes, please call in.

• 41:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, he writes a letter to a naval admiral posted nearby in the town of Deal, and he writes that he's been ordered to ride to London with, quote, "dispatches of the happiest nature," end quote. And then he writes, quote, "My anxiety will not allow me to say more for your gratification than that the Allies obtained a final victory. That Bonaparte was overtaken by a party of Sackens' Cossacks, who immediately slayed him and divided his body between them," end quote.

• 42:16Karen Kilgariff?

  But I can't say more.

• 42:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't say much, except that here's exactly...

• 42:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Every detail.

• 42:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Detail. So, what he's saying here is that Napoleon has been killed by the Russians, obviously, which means that the decades-long Napoleonic Wars are over. If you remember one thing about Napoleon, which I know you remember many.

• 42:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Short, in love, French.

• 42:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And also didn't die. And also died in exile. Yeah, exactly. He died in exile. So, and also, if you know the ABBA lyrics, you might remember that he was defeated at...

• 42:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Waterloo.

• 42:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, which has not happened yet. The Napoleonic Wars are a series of messy conflicts across Europe that had begun 11 years earlier. There's some scholars say that they are really just an extension of the Hundred Year Wars between the British and French, and they just fucking hate each other.

• 43:01Karen Kilgariff?

  They've been warring it up for so long.

• 43:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, next-door neighbors and everything. To keep things, right? No.

• 43:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of, across the street.

• 43:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. To keep things very short, different coalitions of countries team up with Britain to fight against France and its aggressive expansion under Napoleon, and no one seems to be quite able to beat Napoleon. So, when Colonel de Berg shows up in Dover, presumably having sailed over from France saying that the war is over and Napoleon is dead, people are fucking stoked. Huge celebrations. The people at the Ship Inn, we can imagine, drink a shit ton of sherry.

• 43:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And party.

• 43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Sherry's on me tonight, boys.

• 43:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. It's like if right now, if we were, if someone said that...

• 43:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Napoleonic Wars of America would finally end.

• 43:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we'd all fucking celebrate.

• 43:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd throw these in the air.

• 43:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna punch that TV right in, run into the street.

• 43:50Georgia Hardstark?

  So much sherry.

• 43:52Karen Kilgariff?

  The sherry would flow.

• 43:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Flowing. In the streets. The innkeeper asks one of his staff members to take that letter to the Admiral in Deal, which is about eight miles away, about a two-hour ride on horseback. So, once the carriage is ready, the Colonel begins his ride to London. So, so they have someone else go tell someone else, and then this guy gets a horse to London. Along the way, he stops at several other inns and pubs, changing horses. At least there's some animal...

• 44:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Awareness.

• 44:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Awareness in this story.

• 44:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And saying he urgently needs to write a letter about some very good news. And by the time he's gotten to one of the later inns on his route, the innkeeper asks, is it true? Like, it's already spread. And Colonel replies, quote, "He is dead," end quote. So, the innkeeper presses, asking who is dead. The Colonel says Napoleon. The innkeeper, he says, it's definitely true. So, the Colonel gets to London around nine o'clock, an hour before the stock market opens in the morning. That'd be fun if we had an overnight stock market. Oh, my God, didn't they have sleepovers once a year?

• 44:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And just get, like, food from 7-Eleven and stuff.

• 44:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, on the floor of the stock market, everyone gets a...

• 44:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Give me another coffee.

• 45:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Pillowcase.

• 45:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 45:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Told scary stories.

• 45:03Karen Kilgariff?

  They just hold their ticket up, kind of like, I'm tired.

• 45:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoever falls asleep first.

• 45:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Loses all their money.

• 45:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Okay, so the Colonel then asks to switch coaches, which rides, tries to do so as inconspicuously as possible, but he is seen by multiple people being dropped off at the House of a Member of Parliament, a man named Lord Thomas Cochrane, a decorated formal naval admiral known to be one of the more radical members of Parliament. So, then, right when the market opens, people start trading on this good news and buying government bonds. And the first thing in the morning, they are trading at the same price they were on Saturday, but very quickly, the price begins to climb. People's speculations that the war has ended rises to a new level later that morning when an elaborate carriage is seen carrying two men who seem to be wearing the regalia of

• 45:51Georgia Hardstark?

  French royalist officers, meaning officers from the Bourbon Dynasty, who the British sympathize with and who would take power if Napoleon were unseated. So, they're like, it's fucking happening. Like, everything's getting lined up to...

• 46:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And people are like, the bakers out in the street, like, that's the Bourbon royalty.

• 46:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know that?

• 46:10Karen Kilgariff?

  They take over.

• 46:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Like, everyone knows.

• 46:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, everything was so slow back then, like...

• 46:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Somebody's like, oh, my God, this thing's happening, and they have a letter, and they hand it to a guy, and the guy rides on a horse for eight days.

• 46:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 46:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And it goes somewhere else, and that's supposed to be like a phone call.

• 46:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 46:25Karen Kilgariff?

  There's so much hang time to lie and do stuff.

• 46:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, before things can be confirmed or disproven.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Truly, like, just the heyday of scams.

• 46:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely. So, and it's actually an early pump-and-dump scheme, like the one Jordan Belfort went to jail for, as chronicled by Wolf of Wall Street.

• 46:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Basically, his company sold penny stocks, spread false information about the companies that people were investing in to raise the prices, and then sold those penny stocks when they grew, before people realized what was going on. It's happened recently with several cryptocurrency pump-and-dump schemes as well. I know you fell for a lot of those.

• 47:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, all my money's in crypto, so...

• 47:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, you take all your advice from Reddit.

• 47:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Be podcasting till I'm 98. You know who has crypto investments?

• 47:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Who?

• 47:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Jim, home Jim.

• 47:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Your dad has crypto investments? How? I don't think my dad even...

• 47:15Karen Kilgariff?

  He's just like that. He always wants to know.

• 47:17Georgia Hardstark?

  On his own accord?

• 47:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:19Georgia Hardstark?

  How are they doing?

• 47:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I think okay. He argues, I'm always like, I don't know, Dad, and he's like, what are you talking about?

• 47:25Georgia Hardstark?

  The one time I tried to, like, do it on my own, I just bought a bunch of weed company stock and lost everything immediately. Like, I just did...

• 47:33Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 47:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone that I respected and liked, his podcast I listened to, his financial podcast I listened to, was like, I'm telling you right now, this is gonna be the next, like...

• 47:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You were a victim of his pump-and-dump.

• 47:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Hers.

• 47:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sexist of me.

• 47:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It is, and I'm not gonna say who it is, because I...

• 47:47Karen Kilgariff?

  You kind of are.

• 47:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Who?

• 47:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Is Dr. Laura?

• 47:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, who do you know that's...

• 47:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Laura Schlesinger?

• 47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Does she give financial advice?

• 47:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that sucked. I don't do it by myself anymore. Just high-yield savings, everyone. Okay, so...

• 48:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not for, listen, if you're getting into some sort of world of gambling on your phone.

• 48:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, no, no, no.

• 48:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Stock trading on your phone, any of those kinds of things, it's too easy.

• 48:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even like marijuana. I don't even smoke weed.

• 48:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not your thing.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And I was like, yes.

• 48:16Karen Kilgariff?

  This is it.

• 48:18Georgia Hardstark?

  This is it. This is how I'm gonna get out of podcasts.

• 48:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And so it appears that these pump and dump schemes have been around for as long as there have been stock markets, which trace their roots back to the early 1600s in Amsterdam.

• 48:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Some fucking high as fuck guy was like, you know what we should do with our money? Play with it.

• 48:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Bet on things.

• 48:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, it's a great way to keep the rich, rich and the poor, poor.

• 48:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Stock market. The Dutch Stock Exchange was founded to allow investors to participate in joint stock companies like the Dutch East India Company, which allowed individuals to buy stock in massive maritime trade expeditions. Like many things in the finance world, it seems like there's a fine line between behavior that is expected, like hyping up a product you just bought, being like.

• 49:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I love this blow dryer.

• 49:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I love this blow dryer and behavior that is illegal, which is hyping up the product with false information with the intention to sell it off quickly. So.

• 49:13Karen Kilgariff?

  This blow dryer is making my hair longer.

• 49:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And then, so you all should buy it, sell. You can't do that.

• 49:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Literally me on TikTok every single day where I'm just like, well, then I guess I have to get it.

• 49:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, same.

• 49:23Karen Kilgariff?

  There's so many wonderful products that clearly if you were at the state fair in the exhibition hall, you'd be like, who would buy that?

• 49:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It's shit. You win at bingo at a state fair.

• 49:31Karen Kilgariff?

  For real?

• 49:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 49:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 49:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it all.

• 49:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. The key to a successful pump and dump is to sell off your own position before everyone gets wise to your tricks.

• 49:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 49:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So remember that. What if you were the one who told me to buy all the marijuana stocks?

• 49:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I was like just weirdly whispering in your ear and you're like, I don't know how I got this idea, but.

• 49:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Some chick on a podcast.

• 49:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh shit.

• 49:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I wasn't lying.

• 49:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Every time this podcast ends, my finance podcast begins and I give the worst advice. I don't know what I'm talking about.

• 50:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Neither do I. And here's how quickly that had to turn around, it being obvious that it wasn't true, is that suddenly people are like, gee, later in the day, I wonder why this hasn't been in the news yet that Napoleon is dead.

• 50:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean? Like shit's slow, but not that slow. So they get nervous that the British Secretary of State has not made a formal announcement. And by the end of the day, it becomes clear that there has been fraud.

• 50:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 50:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Like you gotta give it a couple of days so you can get the fuck out of town.

• 50:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 50:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 50:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Just think of all the free meals and cherries and beers that he got along the way of delivering that news. Like he basically just.

• 50:35Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 50:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Got into town.

• 50:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:38Karen Kilgariff?

  For free. And then.

• 50:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it.

• 50:41Georgia Hardstark?

  The price of the government bonds is back where it started by the end of the day. The London Stock Market, what?

• 50:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That just like.

• 50:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. So like all your fucking money's gone.

• 50:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I literally, I'm like, never put a dime of my money into the stock market. You can get me some bonds?

• 50:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:57Karen Kilgariff?

  You can get me this stuff that's guaranteed. And other than that, no, thank you.

• 51:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's too scary.

• 51:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why I don't look at it and I let someone else do it for me. My cousin.

• 51:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Smart. Yes. He knows.

• 51:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So the London Stock Market has its own in-house investigating team and they immediately go to work. The first thing.

• 51:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Cast that right now.

• 51:14Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 51:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It is.

• 51:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's gotta be what's his face.

• 51:17Karen Kilgariff?

  The late Alan Rickman.

• 51:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. But then also the other one with the Cumberbottom.

• 51:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Benedict Cumberbatch.

• 51:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 51:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  He's gotta be in it.

• 51:27Karen Kilgariff?

  He's gotta be in it. Well, how about a nice Matthew McFadden from Succession and Pride and Prejudice?

• 51:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Always cast him.

• 51:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. He can be the muscle in the back.

• 51:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it. The first thing that they figure out is that the carriage that had been seen supposedly carrying French royal officers can be traced back to the Rose Inn, which is an establishment a little outside of London. I looked it up. It looks like it's still there and still serving.

• 51:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course it is.

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. It's amazing. So they're like, hey, that carriage is from you. And then they go there and the innkeeper's like, yeah, I rented it out to a man named Mr. Sandem, a liquor merchant who was having money problems. So the investigators quickly track that guy down. The whole thing falls apart very fast, as well as four other men who had been involved in this side plot. Those four other men immediately confessed to their part in the fraud, but they refused to name any other names, even though it seems like they're clearly in cahoots with whoever has profited. That is a group of people, including Lord Cochrane, the man whose house the Colonel had gone to. The Colonel is actually an adventurer.

• 52:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 52:26Georgia Hardstark?

  What a fucking cool career.

• 52:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Bring back that career.

• 52:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, named Charles Random de Burgner.

• 52:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Random.

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Random. That fucking first name.

• 52:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. Where did that go?

• 52:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's his middle name.

• 52:39Karen Kilgariff?

  What if that's been a slang word this whole time and just came back recently?

• 52:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Random.

• 52:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, Charles Random. He's throwing money everywhere.

• 52:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. I love it. Who also recently had some financial difficulties. So these people who like needed money.

• 52:51Karen Kilgariff?

  They all got together?

• 52:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The investigators find that Lord Cochrane and two other investors had invested heavily in government bonds. That's the thing is you can look up who invested heavily first. It's like not, it's not anonymous.

• 53:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But the book is really big and heavy, so it's gonna take forever to get to that page.

• 53:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. You know, so they look that up and one of these investors is Cochrane's uncle, a Scottish adventurer named James Andrew Cochrane Johnston.

• 53:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Second adventurer?

• 53:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He got adventures. I guess they don't have a lot of money.

• 53:22Karen Kilgariff?

  So they just have to go do that adventure.

• 53:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Adventure of the stock market.

• 53:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Who's known to be something of a swindler. The group had ultimately made a profit that it's confusing to lay out because so many people fucked around and found out. But in today's money, it'd be, do you want to guess just out of the blue how much money in today's money it would be, even though we don't know?

• 53:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Like how much money was lost?

• 53:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Or how much money they took.

• 53:43Karen Kilgariff?

  They, they made.

• 53:44Georgia Hardstark?

  How much, what their profit was.

• 53:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. How much they made in one day from, I don't love the term pump and dump, but we'll use it.

• 53:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't like the term chunnel.

• 53:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So between pump and dump and chunnel.

• 53:57Karen Kilgariff?

  This whole story is a mess. No, no. Did they make $500,000?

• 54:02Georgia Hardstark?

  14 million US dollars in today's money.

• 54:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa, in today's money?

• 54:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So they definitely.

• 54:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It was worth it.

• 54:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Pumped and dumped.

• 54:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's?

• 54:11Georgia Hardstark?

  All over the chunnel.

• 54:12Karen Kilgariff?

  They chunnled everywhere.

• 54:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Everywhere.

• 54:14Karen Kilgariff?

  All over the chunnel. They were so stoked in that chunnel.

• 54:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That's fucking crazy.

• 54:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. You'd wish one of them got away with it. Cause like, that's just such a fun. I know.

• 54:26Karen Kilgariff?

  None of them did?

• 54:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's see. I don't remember.

• 54:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 54:30Georgia Hardstark?

  This whole thing takes only about a week to unravel. It sounds like this swift and angry reaction by both investors who had been duped and by investigators come as something of a surprise to Cochrane and his co-conspirators. They thought they were having a good old fun, making some money, but actually fucking pissed everyone off.

• 54:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Because imagine how stoked you'd be if you heard and then it turns out.

• 54:51Karen Kilgariff?

  For a war that has gone on for years.

• 54:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 54:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Decades.

• 54:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Don't give anyone false hope.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, hey, come on, throw that confetti in the air.

• 54:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I left my husband because I thought finally like this is over and I go, oh shit.

• 55:02Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 55:03Georgia Hardstark?

  At the time, there's basically no regulation of the stock market. It has only just put out its own internal rulebook. And so people trade on rumors all the time and sow rumors all the time. But I think that this was just beyond, it was just too big, too outrageous. And ordinary investors were outraged because they already sensed that people in power like Lord Cochrane, who was in parliament, had access to insider information that made them more able to get rich from investing. They already knew.

• 55:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Georgia Hardstark?

  The rich get richer.

• 55:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's still a scam.

• 55:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Members of parliament and members of Congress here in the US are still allowed to have interests in publicly traded companies. And they raise eyebrows all the time when they make prudent investment moves around the time that they might be briefed on developments the general public does not yet know. That doesn't seem fucking right at all, but we don't question it.

• 55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, there's entire accounts on TikTok where people just follow.

• 55:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 55:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Senators and governors' investments and then just basically tell people, they just moved all their money from here to here.

• 56:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 56:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy.

• 56:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just so fucked up.

• 56:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very, very bad and corrupt.

• 56:06Georgia Hardstark?

  But what Lord Cochrane and his co-conspirators did does seem to have crossed some imaginary rich person line. He goes to trial in June of 1814. He's found guilty. He's fined a thousand pounds.

• 56:19Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, that's fine. I have 14, 13,999.

• 56:22Georgia Hardstark?

  You want to guess how much that is in today's money?

• 56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  A thousand pounds in 1814.

• 56:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I think in dollars, not in pounds. That is gonna make a difference.

• 56:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sorry. A thousand dollars. Yeah, to me.

• 56:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Thousand pounds in today's money.

• 56:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Aren't pounds dollars? Um, a thousand pounds in today's money from then would be roughly $400,000?

• 56:41Georgia Hardstark?

  77,000.

• 56:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait.

• 56:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. 7700,000. I just read.

• 56:49Karen Kilgariff?

  77,000.

• 56:51Georgia Hardstark?

  What did I say? 7700,000?

• 56:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 56:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I was just like, it could be me. I don't know. I don't know what's going on.

• 57:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm having a stroke.

• 57:04Karen Kilgariff?

  $7,700,000 is a lot of money.

• 57:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 57:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy.

• 57:08Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's how much he's fined. He's ordered to stand in the pillory in front of the stock market.

• 57:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Embarrassing.

• 57:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know what the pillory is?

• 57:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't know.

• 57:16Karen Kilgariff?

  When you get your thing there?

• 57:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Karen Kilgariff?

  People can come up and spank your butt. You can't do anything about it.

• 57:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Fun. Yeah, it's things you put your head and arms into that you sometimes see as a photo op at like amusement parks or little towns that are really big.

• 57:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Or dungeons.

• 57:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Lord Cochran's uncle, Andrew, flees the country like a fucking smart person after this verdict. He ultimately dies in France because the Napoleonic wars really do end about a year after all of this happens.

• 57:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 57:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Lord Cochran protests his innocence for the rest of his life, claiming that he had been set up.

• 57:48Karen Kilgariff?

  How?

• 57:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 57:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 57:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Some historians will agree that based solely on the evidence presented at his trial, which spent a lot of time on whether the fake Colonel had really been wearing red. Because like, that's kind of inferring that it's a costume to say something's been happening, not just to say it's been happening. He should not have been convicted. Regardless, based on the evidence, which is mostly circumstantial, most people believe that he probably did participate.

• 58:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it is a great, like, kind of overarching excuse to be like, I was set up.

• 58:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. We all were.

• 58:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we all were.

• 58:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And yet that is the story of the Napoleonic hoax.

• 58:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing.

• 58:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:27Karen Kilgariff?

  A fun realm to go into.

• 58:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 58:29Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what it makes me think of is, you like the guy from British Bake Off with the eyeliner?

• 58:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Why do you think I like him?

• 58:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. Don't you like weirdos? Isn't that your thing?

• 58:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. It is, actually.

• 58:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Noel Fielding from The Mighty Boosh.

• 58:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 58:46Karen Kilgariff?

  He has a show called Dick Turpin. And they're basically highwaymen from this era.

• 58:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No way.

• 58:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So the second you started talking, I was just watching Dick Turpin's characters as those people were doing stuff. And I was just like, you should try to watch that show.

• 58:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna.

• 58:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He's very goofy funny.

• 59:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 59:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And he does, he likes to do like funny puns and people who are like, they're highwaymen and robbing people. But then they're like, that hurt my feelings.

• 59:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. What was that one with the castle and it was the plague and?

• 59:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, the Cameron.

• 59:13Georgia Hardstark?

  What happened to that? We used to talk about all the time.

• 59:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it was just those couple of episodes.

• 59:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 59:17Karen Kilgariff?

  We didn't get, it wasn't a recurring show.

• 59:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn it.

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Come back.

• 59:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gonna come back, so we should put our money on it.

• 59:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's invest in my future Netflix episodes.

• 59:29Georgia Hardstark?

  We're Netflix insiders.

• 59:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, we could go to Vegas and start betting on things that just happen. That's what a bunch of people are doing these days.

• 59:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, you can go and like bet on baseball things, but it's like, what shorts? The fucking person's wearing in the dugout?

• 59:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Let's get in there and just start slapping down 50s.

• 59:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 59:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 59:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do another batch of honking hoorays brought to you by Hyundai.

• 1:00:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks, Hyundai.

• 1:00:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks, Hyundai. Can I go first? This is from Amanda Woods on Instagram. I knocked almost $2,000 off my debt this month.

• 1:00:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 1:00:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Didn't say how she did it.

• 1:00:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:00:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:00:17Karen Kilgariff?

  None of our business.

• 1:00:18Georgia Hardstark?

  No shame in a paycheck.

• 1:00:19Karen Kilgariff?

  God, that's a lot of money.

• 1:00:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Good job.

• 1:00:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we've both been in debt. We know how you feel.

• 1:00:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I, I was debt. It was my whole life.

• 1:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Congratulations, Amanda.

• 1:00:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Be like Amanda and chip it away, chip it away, chip it away.

• 1:00:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't pay the minimum because then you're just stuck with it forever.

• 1:00:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, this one's from Hello Ashley over on Instagram and it says, "I'm driving solo cross-country with my dogs to start a job in a town where I know nobody."

• 1:00:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so scary.

• 1:00:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's someone who needs a serious hooray.

• 1:00:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's super brave.

• 1:00:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a brand new, cool, fun start.

• 1:00:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:54Karen Kilgariff?

  But also you'll still be there. So you're, you get to have your journey.

• 1:00:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And your dogs are gonna be there.

• 1:01:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And your dogs will be there and then you can meet people at the dog parts.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:01:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember how weird dog people are.

• 1:01:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, okay, this one is from Erica CVA on Instagram. "I just survived a week-long vacation with my family."

• 1:01:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's it.

• 1:01:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That is a hooray. That sounds like, and that's not a vacation.

• 1:01:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not, when you have to survive it, it's not a vacation.

• 1:01:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I mean, it depends on the kind of family you have, where it's like, if you love to shout as a pastime and then you get all your family together, well, then everybody's having a good time.

• 1:01:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right, everyone's shouting.

• 1:01:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone gets to do their thing.

• 1:01:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Well, go on your family vacation.

• 1:01:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's a lot of yelling. Okay, this is from full name Catherine Rudden. And this is actually somebody who responded to our newsletter. God bless them.

• 1:01:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Cute.

• 1:01:47Karen Kilgariff?

  "Walking down the hill to the local convenience store for a soda refill, I randomly found $2 on the sidewalk and used it for the soda and a Lotto ticket." And then it says, "I didn't win, but it was fun anticipation."

• 1:01:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Girl math is that you didn't spend anything.

• 1:02:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. You had the afternoon buy you some fun.

• 1:02:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Karen Kilgariff?

  $2 on the ground.

• 1:02:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 1:02:06Karen Kilgariff?

  In this economy? When's the last time that's happened? When's the last time you found cash anywhere?

• 1:02:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Never.

• 1:02:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Even in your own house?

• 1:02:13Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:02:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Good job, Kat. We're very proud of you.

• 1:02:15Georgia Hardstark?

  We are.

• 1:02:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep those eyes peeled.

• 1:02:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this is from Tika, rhymes with Becca. So Tecca.

• 1:02:23Georgia Hardstark?

  "Hi all. My hooray is that at 48, I started a new hobby: quilting."

• 1:02:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:02:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Seems so hard. "I have a few good, patient friends who are master quilters who gave me lessons, advice, and encouragement. Five years later, I'm proud to say, I'm a pretty good quilter."

• 1:02:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:02:41Georgia Hardstark?

  "If you ever receive a homemade quilt from someone, please know that there is literal blood, sweat, and tears on that thing."

• 1:02:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Gross.

• 1:02:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Ma'am, DNA. I think it's new DNA.

• 1:02:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Tecca, I need to talk to you.

• 1:02:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Tecca, Becca, please know it is a labor of love and there's math, so much math. And I am a school librarian and not a math teacher for a reason.

• 1:03:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, why is Tecca yelling at us about the fact that they decided to start quilting? It has nothing to do with us.

• 1:03:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you ever been gifted a quilt?

• 1:03:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I had aunts, my great aunts, Aunt Ma and Anne were real crafty. So there's a lot, there was quilts, there was crocheted blankets.

• 1:03:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 1:03:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Crocheted slippers, the kind that would drive your feet crazy.

• 1:03:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, just crocheted everything.

• 1:03:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Crocheted everything.

• 1:03:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that. I love, when I go to an estate sale and I find something crocheted because like, some person put a lot of effort into that.

• 1:03:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 1:03:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Watched hours and hours of.

• 1:03:32Karen Kilgariff?

  The Price is Right. And made that thing for you. For you.

• 1:03:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, don't put it in the landfill.

• 1:03:37Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Put it over your body, no matter how much DNA is on it. From Tecca and her friends.

• 1:03:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, thank you to Hyundai for presenting these honking arrays and thank you guys for writing them in. Please write them in more and we'll read them.

• 1:03:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. And also stay sexy.

• 1:03:51Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:03:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:04:03Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:04:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

• 1:04:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Our consulting producer is Kate Schellbach.

• 1:04:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Our creative lead is Allison Agosti.

• 1:04:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:04:15Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:04:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McLaughlin and Ally Elkin.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected] and follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:04:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:04:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit the double thumbs up button.

• 1:04:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:04:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:04:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027 for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:05:00Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:05:16Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:05:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:05:25Speaker 00

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• 1:06:00Speaker 04

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