540 - Battery and Rock Night

This week, Georgia covers the murder of Peter Falconio and survival of Joanne Lees and Karen tells the story of the Chilean goalie World Cup scandal. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 0:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Between work, school, family obligations, and the endless Halloween hustle, it often feels like there's never a good time to slow down.

• 0:49Karen Kilgariff?

  No matter how busy life gets, even a small break can help us recharge, reset, and enjoy the moment.

• 0:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Breaks don't have to be the 15 minutes in your car while you wait for your kid to get out of school, or the two minutes while your lull pumpkin is tying his shoes.

• 1:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Kit Kat gives people permission to take the break they've earned and make it a better break.

• 1:05Georgia Hardstark?

  While the world tells us to keep going, Kit Kat reminds us that the best time for a break is now.

• 1:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Break now. Have a Kit Kat.

• 1:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello and welcome.

• 1:32Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 1:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilkerer.

• 1:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Adjust, adjust, adjust your microphone.

• 1:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we are with our microphones.

• 1:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Microphones are a big part of podcasting, ladies and gentlemen.

• 1:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's kind of the only part, really.

• 1:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they do more than we do.

• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, once you have a microphone, you're basically a professional podcaster.

• 1:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You never give it up.

• 1:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You never shut the fuck up.

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You never can shut it down. Do you remember when the way I used to shake the old microphone?

• 1:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Dang.

• 1:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you remember when we were amateur podcasters?

• 2:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you remember when you were the sound guy and Steven was just a gleam in our eyes?

• 2:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I do. So this funny thing happened to me. This funny thing happened.

• 2:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 2:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Like I was reading this.

• 2:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you doing bits? Yes.

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm listening to a book, or I listened to a book that I totally loved. It was great. It's a, one of the drinking alcoholics memoirs that I love so much called Drinking a Love Story by Caroline Knapp. It's from the 90s, so I thought it'd be dated. No, it's life changing.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Is this the one where there's a scene where she jumps on her boyfriend's back like that?

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think so.

• 2:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And they crash?

• 2:32Georgia Hardstark?

  She has her friend's children and she crashes like that.

• 2:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, her friend's children. That's right.

• 2:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's so good. It's changed a lot of things. I haven't had a drink since I listened.

• 2:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you serious?

• 2:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. It's been eight days. But the weird thing about the audiobook is that it's read by the same woman who read I'll Be Gone in the Dark.

• 2:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 2:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Her name's Gabrielle Zachman. She's like a famous audiobook narrator, but I'm listening to this like sobriety book and I'm expecting someone to break into the house in the middle of the night and murder everyone. It's just really-

• 3:06Karen Kilgariff?

  You listen to I'll Be Gone in the Dark so many times.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  So many times. It's just really like jarring and also like I've ruined everything for myself with true crime, essentially.

• 3:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it is what we do.

• 3:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's how it is.

• 3:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's so funny. That's like, I wonder if that person probably has the most insane range of books and it's like, oh, I can do more than just these two things.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:27Karen Kilgariff?

  But I remember that there was a couple of those, at the time, very groundbreaking Yeah. kind of autobiography tell-alls about here's how I got through this horrible thing. There was another one about eating disorders. It's so, I think no one recommends it anymore because it's so triggering.

• 3:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's basically someone giving you a training manual.

• 3:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Well, she has a lot of that in there. I mean, it's just, it's a woman. It doesn't seem like in the 90s that was discussed a lot. You had this idea of what an alcoholic is and it's not a professional, smart woman from a, you know, good background.

• 3:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And it just kind of shows that it could be anyone.

• 4:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And that it builds and builds.

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It sure does.

• 4:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Grows and grows.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And the thought process behind it all is so familiar. I was almost laughing at myself.

• 4:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  About how obvious it is, but.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You know.

• 4:14Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the way.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Alcohol is an addictive substance.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:17Georgia Hardstark?

  So people get addicted to it.

• 4:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Cause for a little while you get to slippy slide out of reality.

• 4:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So nice.

• 4:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's real nice. It reminds me of this morning, I could not get out of the shower because it's, we're having a very strangely cold summer here in LA. And today, well, I haven't been outside Georgia. I was like, it's freezing today. Did you spill?

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I spilled all over.

• 4:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and then I ripped my dress open.

• 4:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no. Oh, my god. Netflix.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm falling apart.

• 4:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Fan cult. We've got.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone's coming. Go away. Go away. Don't look at me. Look away. I'm still drunk.

• 4:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, eight days is not that long.

• 4:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I think the felt tablecloth will be fine. It'll be fine.

• 5:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Leave that in, please.

• 5:05Karen Kilgariff?

  All of that.

• 5:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Netflix needs to know.

• 5:07Karen Kilgariff?

  A nice, long, four-minute hold.

• 5:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Shower.

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't get out of the shower sometimes. Because it's so warm and I don't want to be cold. So I just keep standing there forever.

• 5:21Georgia Hardstark?

  She wrote a memoir about not being able to get out of the shower.

• 5:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And then I'm babysitting my friends' kids, but I won't get out of the shower. Just keep standing there.

• 5:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck. Should we just get into it?

• 5:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 5:33Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 5:34Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't have to fill.

• 5:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I gave a book wreck.

• 5:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking, she gave a book wreck. She blew her own dress open.

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, we have a podcast network. You know what it's called? Exactly Right Media.

• 5:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 5:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Here are some highlights.

• 5:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we do, right now, have a very big summer announcement for you, and we're very excited. It's Exactly Right's newest true crime limited series. It's a scammer series from our friends at Blanchard House. You know they know what they're doing.

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  The show's called Royal Swindle, and it follows two Aussie con women who scam members of British high society. It's a wild story of greed, lies, and love.

• 6:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Royal Swindle premieres on July 23rd, so go follow the show wherever you get your podcasts. Get on it early. You are going to want to listen to all of the episodes at once. It's an amazing story.

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's really helpful for you guys to follow and subscribe and stuff, so if you are gonna listen, please go do that now.

• 6:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so there's horses.

• 6:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck, yeah.

• 6:29Karen Kilgariff?

  There's horses involved. The horse people, a horse society.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Horse arenas.

• 6:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Or Serpina.

• 6:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And if you're looking for some good news, the next installment of Honking Hoorays premieres at the end of this episode.

• 6:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 6:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You're welcome in advance.

• 6:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And hey, listeners, do you know that you can also be lookers? We are on currently Netflix, along with our other podcast, Buried Bones. So you can watch brand new episodes of My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones every single week right here on Netflix.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You can see us on Netflix. It's really shocking to most people I run into who are like, I saw you on Netflix.

• 7:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought your voice was the other one's voice.

• 7:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Always. And if you're craving even more MFM, join the fan cult at fancult.supercast.com. You get every episode of My Favorite Murder ad free, plus merch discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more.

• 7:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Good night.

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Georgia goes first.

• 7:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia goes first.

• 7:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I got a big one, especially for Australians.

• 7:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Great. Shout out across the world.

• 7:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of Aussies.

• 7:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 7:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, look, I tried.

• 7:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I did. Listeners, if you were watching Netflix right now, you'd know that Georgia was getting her little glasses out of her little glasses case. It's just like Mr. Rogers over here, where Georgia's now turning into podcast personality. Hello.

• 7:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello. It's me, podcaster.

• 7:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello.

• 7:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Georgia. Okay. Okay. Stop saying okay.

• 7:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so this isn't.

• 8:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I get a rosé, please? Can I get a martini? Cold as ice. I want to be able to skate on top of it. That's how we order a cold martini. Did you know that?

• 8:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, is that right?

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to skate, meaning it's so icy on top, I could fucking ice skate on top of it.

• 8:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And the bartender's like, you got it. And then rolls their ice so hard, they fall backwards behind the bar.

• 8:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I would never say that, by the way. I'll say a martini. If it's warm, I won't send it back.

• 8:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right.

• 8:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I just don't, I can't.

• 8:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Make it skate, but if you don't, I'll smile anyway because I don't actually know how any of this works.

• 8:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll tip you so much, you don't even understand.

• 8:41Karen Kilgariff?

  As long as your mustache is curly, I'll do what you say.

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll tip you so much, Vince told me recently, you tip so much that the owners think that the bartender's giving you free drinks. So if you're gonna tip a lot, tip in cash.

• 8:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 8:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I'll fucking blow out the tip sometimes if the person's like cool and nice, or it's like my neighborhood bar.

• 8:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 8:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And Vince was like, that's, that actually fucks them over. Because the owner is like, why did they tip you this much? You must be giving away alcohol. And then they get in trouble.

• 9:07Karen Kilgariff?

  God, I've never thought of that.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I haven't either.

• 9:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, but not at a, like, a busy place. Not like at a major restaurant.

• 9:14Georgia Hardstark?

  If, like, in a bar, if they see a tab that was like a $36 tab, and you tip them $50 on it, they're gonna be like, why did they tip you $50 on it? How many drinks did they actually get?

• 9:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but that's pretty forensic account-y when people are just drunk and giving away money because they love the person that gave them the drinks.

• 9:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Is it a drunk-rich person? Or are you giving away drinks?

• 9:35Karen Kilgariff?

  There's someone that's straight up bad at math.

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That just wants to get the fuck out of there.

• 9:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you know what I did the other night?

• 9:40Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 9:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought I would be cute and try to make the whole thing add up to an even number.

• 9:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And fuck the waiter over by about $13.

• 9:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 9:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And I just kept thinking about it. I ended, we went there a second night, so it's not a big deal. But I was just like, thinking about it, like, why was that the priority?

• 9:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Karen Kilgariff?

  A round number for who?

• 10:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It feels good. For you and not for the waiter.

• 10:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but still, it doesn't feel good to me because I know I didn't get there. So it's, I'm always like, I think I minus it by $10. I still can't carry the one.

• 10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  My grandma used to carry this card around that was like tipping, and the exact numbers for what you wanted to tip.

• 10:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's kind of...

• 10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Why don't we have those anymore? They're called calculators in your phone. But I can't figure that out.

• 10:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, because you'd have to kind of know. I want a little card that says, if you want to go...

• 10:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Eighteen, twenty, twenty-two.

• 10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Small, regular, big, yeah.

• 10:31Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 10:32Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll figure this out later.

• 10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Someday we will figure this out. In the meantime, true crime.

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do a true crime podcast.

• 10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  We're going to Australia. This is an infamous Australian case that has technically been solved in that the alleged killer was sentenced, but to many Australians, it remains a mystery, both because they think the wrong man was sentenced, and also because the victim's body has never been found. And some people even question if there is a body to be found. There's a lot of debate over this. We're going to figure it out today.

• 11:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And solve this one.

• 11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do an on-air solve for once.

• 11:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. To those who believe justice was served, it's also a survival story, which, in which a young woman escaped her captor and lived to testify against him.

• 11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  We love those stories.

• 11:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. And to everyone who doesn't, she's a liar who fabricated the entire story and is responsible for her boyfriend's disappearance. This is the story of the murder of Peter Falconio and the survival story of Joanne Lee's.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So you're about to tell a survival story, but we don't know how to interpret it?

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  We know.

• 11:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  She's telling the truth.

• 11:34Karen Kilgariff?

  We do know that.

• 11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  We do, you and I.

• 11:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 11:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And a lot of people. But there's a lot of questions behind it, and that's partly because of the way the investigation was done and the way the trial and the evidence went, that people question a lot of things. And also, she's a woman who survived, and so people just immediately assume lots of stuff.

• 11:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, okay.

• 11:56Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll get into it, and we'll get lots of hate mail about it. The main sources from the story are reporting from The Guardian and the Sydney Morning Herald, and also there's a documentary called Murder in the Outback, which I watched. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. The documentary clearly thinks that the wrong person was put in prison, so I'm, you know, grain of salt.

• 12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a bias?

• 12:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 12:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's late 2000. Peter Falconio and Joanne Lee's, they're 28 and 27 years old. They're a couple from England. They've been together about five years. If you want a picture of who I'm talking about, she could be played by Selma Blair, and he could be played by Sean Gunn, James Gunn's little brother from Guardians of the Galaxy. Here's a photo of actually the people.

• 12:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 12:37Georgia Hardstark?

  She's really pretty. She's got like a Selma Blair meets Elizabeth Taylor, but British kind of a thing going.

• 12:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 12:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's real cute and has a very sweet face and smile.

• 12:46Karen Kilgariff?

  She looks like the sister from Peep Show, which is a deep cut.

• 12:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Very similar to that actress.

• 12:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 12:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 12:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So they met at a nightclub. Peter was a student at the University of Brighton and they moved in together and now they are living their 20-something dream. They're taking a year off to travel around the world, just kind of be like backpackers and explorers. They set out in November. They start in Asia and they travel to Nepal, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia, like something most of us would maybe do. Two of those in our lifetime.

• 13:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 13:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 13:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  In January of 2001, they arrive in Australia and they both get what's called a working holiday visa, meaning they're allowed to get jobs to fund the rest of their travels in Australia. So Peter and Joanne's parents are nervous about the Australia leg of the trip because there's recently been three highly publicized, highly violent incidents, two of which targeted backpackers. Those are the backpacker murders, which happened in the late 80s and early 90s, and you covered at a live show in Australia. It's episode 88 and it's just a fucking incredible story that I had never... Ivan Malat, right?

• 13:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Ivan Malat and the survivor Paul Ingham.

• 13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, right. And then there was also a horrible fire at a hostel in June of 2000, which had been started on purpose and killed 15 people.

• 14:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 14:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So understandably, you know, these 20-somethings are in Australia. Their parents are worried, but for many months of the Australia leg, everything goes well. They stay in Sydney, Joanne gets a job in a bookstore and Peter works for a company that installs furniture and offices. They're just kind of like saving up to go on their next leg of their beautiful trip.

• 14:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I would love to get a job in Sydney and just live there for a little while.

• 14:26Georgia Hardstark?

  At a bookstore?

• 14:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, and just like kind of walk down by the harbor when you're done.

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, I wonder, there's something about knowing your job isn't permanent. Like, this is not the rest of your fucking life.

• 14:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 14:35Georgia Hardstark?

  This is like a stop in between adventures.

• 14:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  So 20s, man, you gotta do it.

• 14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  This is your sign right now, everyone listening.

• 14:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Just try stuff.

• 14:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Were the people that are like, don't leave the house.

• 14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  We really are.

• 14:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Lock yourself indoors. And then we're like, but you know what?

• 14:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to Australia.

• 14:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So they are saving money for their next leg of the trip, which is going to be a huge road trip across Australia. And as we know from our tour there, there's like the big cities, Sydney and Melbourne and Brisbane, and then there's nothing fly over, like bushland and small towns and then Perth. And so there's a lot in between there that's just kind of long, quiet roads.

• 15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. The outback, they call it.

• 15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  The outback. Jesus. Thank you for doing my research for me. So they set off for that trip on June 25th, 2001, in an orange camper van. It's like a VW. And they plan to sleep in the van in the back or like go camping or sleep by the side of the road.

• 15:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Boo.

• 15:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I was like, you either look thrilled or like miserable.

• 15:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I've done it and I've done it in a VW van.

• 15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  You have?

• 15:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. That was my old life, Georgia. That was before I knew you. It is the kind of thing where you get to see amazing stuff up close. You get to camp in nature, which was like, you know, doing it like, say, in the California redwoods.

• 15:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't recommend it enough. We were just surrounded. But for somebody like me, who's a real lover of nice hotels.

• 16:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to hell.

• 16:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Amenities.

• 16:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Got to have them.

• 16:07Georgia Hardstark?

  We love amenities.

• 16:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Room service.

• 16:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 16:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Just eating.

• 16:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Indoor shower.

• 16:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Hot, hot shower. You can just stand around in.

• 16:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So first they go southwest. They stop in Canberra and in Melbourne. And then they start their trip by heading north. By July 11th, they arrive in a place called Alice Springs, which is a small city in Northern Territory. So there's all the different territories. This is Northern Territory. It's kind of basically in the center of Australia. And Alice Springs is the biggest outpost for many, many miles of barren outback. There's the word outback.

• 16:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 16:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I looked it up and I saw it described many different ways online, this Northern Territory and this long stretch of the outback. And it seems like it's a town that's struggling to be touristy while dealing with lots of crime. And there's a lot of lingering racism against the Aboriginal population. I got this quote on Reddit. "The population is a real mixed bag from lefty arts degree kind of people working in government agencies to classic redneck outback bogan." And I don't know what bogan means. And then someone else wrote, "It's a place criminals go to hide." So they stay in Alice Springs for a few days. And it's kind of like the last stop between civilizations. And there's like little towns along the way, but not much else.

• 17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So on the evening of July 14th, Peter and Joanne leave Alice Springs, heading north towards the outback. It's also called the Red Center. Picture Las Vegas, that long stretch from LA to Las Vegas of nothing but desert. But the desert is all red, like this dusty, rusty looking red color. It's really beautiful. It's a very barren, kind of Vegas, Utah, Joshua Tree, open land with different kinds of bush, the bush.

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's bush country.

• 17:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's bush country. So at around 6:30 that evening, they stop at a rest stop where they share what the papers will later refer to as a joint of cannabis.

• 17:59Georgia Hardstark?

  The press will make a big deal about this later. And then they continue on their way with Peter driving.

• 18:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's just goes slightly off the road and comes back.

• 18:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Ever so slightly off the road.

• 18:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So it's about 7:30 now. It's pitch black. There's no moon. I cannot even stress how dark it is out in the bush.

• 18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I just say this real quick? And it just came to me. Don't get high before you go drive through tens of or hundreds of miles of darkened

• 18:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That you're unfamiliar with completely.

• 18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's remember they're from England, small town in England. Like one of the people that they met in Alice Springs was like, don't go at night. There's nothing.

• 18:35Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no reason to do it.

• 18:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like not safe and it's scary. So they're in a remote area. They're on their way to a settlement called Barrow Creek. Peter and Joanne notice a pickup truck with a canopy pulling beside the van and keeping pace with them. It's one of those, something's wrong with your car, pull over situations that we know all too well. And they had been having issues with the car. So they assume that's what he's pointing to. And she's like, don't pull over. I don't trust this guy. There's not traffic on this road at all. There's nobody around. But he pulls over anyways. So at this point, Joanne hasn't really gotten a great look at the guy, but she sees that he's wearing a baseball cap, has like a big mustache. And Peter walks around to the back of the car to talk with this guy. And they talk about.

• 19:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Coming out of the exhaust pipe, baby. Peter comes back around and tells Joanne to sit in the driver's seat and rev the engine so they can see what's wrong with the car. She does that. She hears a loud bang, which at first she believes is the car backfiring. But then the man who had stopped them comes to the driver's side door where she is and points a silver handgun at Joanne and tells her to get out of the car. So she immediately realizes that the shot she heard was probably Peter getting shot. The man ties her wrists together with this like weird contraption and gets her into the passenger seat of his truck. And it's a green Toyota little truck with a canopy over the bed. And it's so specific. I'm gonna show you a photo. It's normal to Australia, but like, it almost looks like a little army van.

• 20:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, with like a canvas top on the back.

• 20:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And the wheels are lifted a little bit so you can go over rocks.

• 20:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:11Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I mean?

• 20:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It's made for the outback.

• 20:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Georgia Hardstark?

  So this all comes from her after the fact, the one of the most terrifying traumatic moments of her life, that she explains what happened. And she's not totally clear. She doesn't remember a lot of it. But basically, she says she notices a stocky dog riding with him. And then the man throws her down, tries to tie her ankles as well. She fights back. And then he forces her into the bed of that truck. But then he leaves, she's tied up, he leaves to do something, presumably hide Peter's body, because if someone had been driving by, they would have seen that. And at that moment, she just has this, she says, quote, "A strange calmness came over me, almost like an acceptance, like this is it, I'm going to die. But then out of sheer terror, I realized that I

• 20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  wasn't just going to die, he was going to rape me. And I believe that was the turning point, and that's what saved me, because I just, all of a sudden, from somewhere, found some strength." End quote. She pops up and she's able to get her ankles free, and she runs into the bush, like runs into the outback. And it's pitch black out there. She hides in a bush. The attacker comes after her, scans the area with a flashlight. It's completely black and somehow the flashlight never quite lands on her. She's laying flat.

• 21:29Karen Kilgariff?

  There's nowhere to hide.

• 21:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 21:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Somewhere like, I mean, like just the things I'm picturing of the TV shows I've seen that take place.

• 21:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Places like that where it's just like, what do you get down by a plant on the ground?

• 21:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, that's exactly.

• 21:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So stressful.

• 21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. He eventually gives up and goes back to the road. We're assuming that he wanted to get rid of Peter's body in case someone drove by. And he leaves and Joanne hides in that bush for five hours until 1:00 AM. When she feels safe enough to get out, she returns to the road and flags down a passing truck, like a semi.

• 22:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank God something was passing.

• 22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and also how scary that would be to be standing there like, well, let's hope this person helps me.

• 22:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's hope it's not the same person.

• 22:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so scary.

• 22:11Georgia Hardstark?

  The truck drivers, there's two of them and they are shocked to find her there. They say the fear in her face, they have never seen it before in their lives. It's, this is a terrified woman. They, they use the wire cutters to get the wrist stuff off. There's tape around her neck. They get that off. She's got cuts and scrapes everywhere. She was laying in the bush. And they drive her to the closest service station where they call the police, who arrive finally when the sun rises on June 15th and launch into one of the largest man hunts in Australian history. At the scene of the attack, they find a stain on the ground that's later determined to be Peter's blood. So there is a small pool of blood, but they always say that it doesn't seem like there's enough blood

• 22:50Georgia Hardstark?

  and there's no like brain matter. If he really got shot in the head, there's inconsistencies there, but who knows? They also find the orange van that they were driving about 80 meters off the road, hidden in the brush. However, roadblocks don't get set up until around eight hours after the initial attack. So the search area is vast. It's about two times the state of Texas, the search area.

• 23:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God.

• 23:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Helicopters scan the area, but they don't find anything.

• 23:18Karen Kilgariff?

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• 25:10Karen Kilgariff?

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• 25:15Georgia Hardstark?

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• 25:20Karen Kilgariff?

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• 25:21Georgia Hardstark?

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• 25:26Karen Kilgariff?

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• 25:33Georgia Hardstark?

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

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• 26:00Karen Kilgariff?

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• 26:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye. Joanne, obviously, has just survived a terrifying ordeal, and so you would expect that she'd be treated with empathy and respect. However, it's the early 2000s, and she's a woman, not to mention young and pretty, and so you would be wrong.

• 26:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 26:21Georgia Hardstark?

  A huge deal is made over the fact that she just straight up refuses to talk to the press. And there, you know, it's the thing that happens all the time, which is she didn't act the way a victim is supposed to act, which we now know is bullshit. She's kind of almost like hostilely ignoring the press.

• 26:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Hostile ignoring, that's what I do. She's, that's a play right out of my playbook. I mean, also, the first thing I thought of when you said that was the dingos ate my baby.

• 26:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what everyone talks about.

• 26:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 26:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, everyone talks about the Chamberlain case when this gets brought up because she was treated the same way and found out to be totally innocent. And she's taken the very next day to do a play-by-play reenactment of exactly what happened in the car. She walks everyone through it. She doesn't remember a lot of it, but she's very like composed, which of course, it's like, do you think maybe they gave her a valium? Do you think maybe she wanted to help the police? She's not going to break down crying in that moment. She's just like, it's just the judgment.

• 27:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever compartmentalized?

• 27:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, exactly.

• 27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to hire people that have alcoholic parents so that people understand all the tricks of the trade.

• 27:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, dissociation.

• 27:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And she's there, yeah.

• 27:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Chef's kiss to this association. But she's standing there like, yes, the trauma of her closest loved one murdered in front of her. And then I have to take these steps to get that murder solved.

• 27:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 27:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it's no time to be falling apart.

• 27:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No, one of the things I tell you right now that I know and that you don't know, like, could help find my boyfriend if he's still alive. And, yeah.

• 28:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That's supposed to be the agreement, anyway.

• 28:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. The British and Australian press immediately pounce on her, like, they are hungry for this, like, wolves for this story. They suggest that her story might not be true, or that she's hiding parts of it. Joanne gives a press conference 11 days after the attack. And at the time, it's treated as her, like, finally deigning to speak to the press. And they immediately pick apart what she's wearing. She has, like, a tank top on that says cheeky monkey. I mean...

• 28:28Karen Kilgariff?

  There was no PR training back then.

• 28:30Georgia Hardstark?

  No, yeah. She doesn't play the victim the way they want her to. She doesn't play it smoothly.

• 28:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, that's that kind of thing where it's like, you're trying to get an outfit together for a press conference, a thing you've never dressed for before. You don't have anybody on your side.

• 28:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 28:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And probably if she's in grief, or whatever it is, it's like, you're just wearing this shirt you picked up and put on.

• 28:50Georgia Hardstark?

  She's on a trip in a foreign country. She picks something out of her luggage and puts it on.

• 28:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I forgot about that part about it. It's only what she has.

• 28:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God.

• 28:59Georgia Hardstark?

  But during the press conference, she acts dismissive. She doesn't cry, which is of course reported on. But it's literally been less than two weeks since she was kidnapped that this happens. So even more articles come out. I mean, it's a huge cover story, doubting Joanne, saying her tone and behavior don't seem appropriate, blah, blah, blah, we all know that. And it seems like she's pretty pissed off at the press, as well as the police, who at this part start re-interviewing her, and this time with a tone that she's a suspect, not the victim. And there's video of this in the documentary. They start questioning her story. They say that they gave her statement to some, like, analysts who said there were 12 apparent inconsistencies.

• 29:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Lies.

• 29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  In her version of events, meaning, like, shit didn't add up. And it's like, oh, you mean the story that she told you when she's fucking traumatized? Maybe high. She was also high.

• 29:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right.

• 29:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:54Karen Kilgariff?

  A cannabis joint.

• 29:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I forgot about that part.

• 29:56Georgia Hardstark?

  So they're saying it's inconsistent with the truth.

• 29:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Someone comes up and shoots your loved one in the head and then you have to tell the story correctly.

• 30:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And have a gun in your face.

• 30:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, right.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So she does get angry at them, you know. And then after three weeks of this DNA testing on the shirt she had been wearing at the time of the attack comes back and there is a small speck of blood on it that has nail DNA. It's not Peter's DNA. It doesn't belong to anyone in their database of criminals either. Police also turned up CCTV footage from a Shell gas station back in Alice Springs from just after midnight on the evening of the attack. The footage shows a Toyota truck with a canopy matching Joanne's description. You can't see the plate, though. And it shows a man going into the station. He's wearing a baseball cap. He has a mustache, just like Joanne said. We don't know if it's the person that she said it was.

• 30:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just someone happens to drive in who matches the description at that time.

• 30:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Multiple descriptions.

• 30:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 30:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Car and face.

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Despite all this evidence, there are many stories picking apart minor inconsistencies. For example, there's conflicting details in a composite sketch. We don't even know if the guy in the Shell station is him. So if it's not consistent with him, it's maybe because it isn't him.

• 31:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 31:10Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't know. So two years go by with occasional articles that still cast doubt on Joanne's story. Peter's body is never recovered and there's no meaningful leads. And then in 2002, a 42-year-old drug runner named Bradley John Murdock.

• 31:27Karen Kilgariff?

  What? It's just, it's late in life to be a drug runner, I think. You just like, be a drug dealer at this point.

• 31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So he's a bad dude. So people don't think he's guilty. People do. Either way, he's a criminal. He was in a motorcycle gang. He's been a drug runner for a long time. And there are some violent acts on his record as well.

• 31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 31:50Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a racist. He has racist tattoos. He's pulled a gun at a soccer game on an Aboriginal crowd. Like, he's not a good dude.

• 31:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 31:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's arrested in connection with a Different case in which a 12 year old girl and her mother are both abducted from their home and they're bound and gagged, sexually assaulted and kidnapped for 20 hours, driven away. And this isn't mistaken identity, like they picked the wrong guy in a lineup. Like, they knew him. He lived in their back house.

• 32:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And they identified him?

• 32:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. This is Bradley John Murdoch, the drug runner. And he's like 6'7", 6'8". He's a huge man. And when he's arrested, police noticed a few things. He had tie cables in his truck, consistent with what the mother and daughter said they were tied with, and also consistent with what Joanne had been tied with. The truck seems to match Joanne's description. It's the same one as we looked at. In fact, Murdoch had been tracked down and interviewed in 2001 because his truck matched the model in those gas station CCTV footage. I think they just questioned a lot of people with records who had that truck. But police had not gotten a DNA sample from him then. They get one now, it's tested, and it's found to be a match for the blood that had been on Joanne's shirt.

• 33:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 33:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's a match.

• 33:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 33:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And then he's acquitted of the case with the mother and daughter. It's a hung jury. It's just seems...

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus Christ.

• 33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It seems like, what's the word? It's...

• 33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So fucked up?

• 33:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's almost like they just put enough reasonable doubt into the jury's head that they didn't convict him, but it's clear to most of us that he did.

• 33:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Got to have that evidence.

• 33:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. And then immediately as he's walking out of the courtroom, he's tackled by police and he's arrested for Peter's murder.

• 33:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh shit.

• 33:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they were like, ready to pounce. Yeah.

• 33:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible.

• 33:37Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like, if he gets off on this, we're immediately bringing him in.

• 33:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That had to feel good to like, that prosecutor, whatever, where it's like, go ahead and enjoy that two minutes of you got acquitted.

• 33:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. The case attracts so much attention, the trial's delayed for a while. And so it eventually starts in October of 2005 in Darwin. Murdoch's lawyers use the angle of discrediting Joanne's testimony because she's ready to testify against him. This includes suggesting that she was having an affair while she was living in Sydney, which in fact, she had been cheating on Peter. She had an affair with a man, so they use that as part of the headlines.

• 34:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, how old is she?

• 34:15Georgia Hardstark?

  27.

• 34:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah. Isn't that what... Everyone does?

• 34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and she admitted it. It wasn't like a revelation at trial. She admitted to the police.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  She told them already?

• 34:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. She said that they had had an affair, they liked each other. She was gonna go on this trip with Peter and then they were gonna see where they landed. And she got put into like police custody and emailed him, this guy, while she was in police custody, like weeks after Peter's death or this incident and said, "When this is over, meet me in Berlin." It just didn't look good for her.

• 34:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 34:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's why police were kind of going after her more.

• 34:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, even if it's purely like escapist and I just don't wanna be in a time where this is over, sorry, that's... First of all, can everyone just stop putting things in fucking writing? I mean, seriously?

• 35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  She's not a perfect victim at all, which is upsetting to people, but doesn't mean she's not a victim.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  This is worst-case scenario for if I was that defense lawyer. I would just be like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"

• 35:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Because this is motive now.

• 35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Well, that's the other thing that's so fucking annoying is they're like, when people who say that Murdoch didn't do it, they say there's no motive. There's no motive because she fucking took off. The motive was to murder, was to sexually assault and rape this woman. Come on. Like, that's the motive, period.

• 35:37Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you're completely right. I mean, like, the idea of a motive for a serial rapist is the act, so that doesn't make sense at all.

• 35:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 35:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, saying they didn't have money on them or something? Like, what the fuck?

• 35:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. Yeah, or like trying to steal a car. It's, no, he killed the boyfriend and tied up and kept alive the girlfriend.

• 35:56Karen Kilgariff?

  May I introduce you a bunch of other serial killers over history that we have talked about?

• 36:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Seriously.

• 36:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Which one do you wanna hear about? This is why we talk about it.

• 36:05Georgia Hardstark?

  So Joanne testifies against Murdoch, who she has already identified in a photo lineup. Which also has some issues behind. If you watch the documentary, you'll see she might have seen this guy getting arrested in the news and then did the photo lineup and picked him.

• 36:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The evidence against him in this whole trial like isn't great.

• 36:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a lot of what people argue is based on the evidence, it doesn't show that he's guilty, even though he could be.

• 36:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's difficult for people and I understand that.

• 36:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that is.

• 36:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And so Murdoch is found guilty, both of the murder and of assaulting Joanne. He appeals his sentences multiple times unsuccessfully. Laws are passed in Australia that prevent any convicted murderer of being granted parole who has withheld the location of a body that has not been found. They keep saying, take us to the body. If he didn't do it, then he can't do that, though.

• 36:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? In 2019, Murdoch is diagnosed with throat cancer and he died just about a year ago in July of 2025, without ever revealing the location of Peter Falconio's body. In the statement, the family says about Murdoch, quote, "We are only forced to think about him now that he's died. We don't want to let him ruin our lives more than he already has. The awful thing is our family's future with Peter was cruelly taken away. Today, we instead focus on the three children we have left and our grandchildren. We didn't have much faith, but we were hoping Bradley John Murdoch would reveal where Peter was before he died. But even now, we still hold out hope that his remains will be found." End quote.

• 37:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And the Northern Territory Police are offering a reward of up to $500,000 for information leading to the recovery of Peter's remains. He would be 53 years old right now if he were still alive. And that is the story of the attack on Peter Falconio and Joanne Lee's.

• 37:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. Now, what would you do, knowing this story?

• 38:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I only know what you just told me.

• 38:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But knowing the story, if you found out they had DNA evidence that actually it was all her plan, like, would that shock you to your bones? Is that something you're like, it's absolutely not possible?

• 38:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Based on the evidence, it's not possible. But based on the evidence against him, and there's other DNA evidence that doesn't check out, it's just a little like, it's hard to believe his, the story against Murdoch. I don't know. I don't know how to say. I would be very, very shocked if she had something to do with it.

• 38:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 38:35Georgia Hardstark?

  What about you? You don't know, no?

• 38:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, just based on what you told me, it's like, that idea, it's like, believe women always. And yet, we have told many stories about women who never stopped lying.

• 38:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 38:47Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I mean? Had very evil intent from early days. So it's not impossible. I just think it's fascinating. When cheaters cheat as if it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, where it's like, you just put a little time bomb in your future.

• 39:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That then tells the person that you care about the most, they cannot trust anything you say or do.

• 39:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. But what's her motive, though? To be with this guy? Then just break up?

• 39:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Break up.

• 39:15Georgia Hardstark?

  With your boyfriend. They're not married. They have no financial ties. And that, there's just so many weird inconsistencies. And I think that the police investigation, because of the way it was done, first and foremost, made it so that it'd be really hard to convict someone for this and have everyone believe they got the right guy.

• 39:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  So, anything about her being guilty based on that evidence also can't be trusted.

• 39:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 39:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So I just don't think, there's more evidence that this guy Murdoch is guilty than she is. And even that is kind of loose.

• 39:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Although, just that the affair really

• 39:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  screws it.

• 39:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not good. But then why

• 39:52Karen Kilgariff?

  In terms of motive.

• 39:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The other thing people talk about is like, why would, how, she'd never been to this place, this remote place in the middle of nowhere. How are you going to plan this perfect crime and get away with it?

• 40:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Is there other, but there are little weird things, like the dog that was with him. She identified as the wrong kind of dog, which just shows that maybe it's not Murdoch. But also, she told him she got in the truck. He forced her in the truck this way, and there's actually no way to get into the truck that way. But it's like she was traumatized and she was going through it. She remembered it incorrectly.

• 40:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, something like that, and I'm just guessing, obviously, but it sounds like the kind of thing where cops went and reenacted something later on. It's like, well, she's saying she did this.

• 40:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 40:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And then you want to go, how big was the cop that was playing her?

• 40:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. How big is she? She went and did the reenactment.

• 40:38Karen Kilgariff?

  She is six foot eight, also.

• 40:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And the other thing is

• 40:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, she went and said, she's, so she's standing there going, this is how I did it. And you're like, you couldn't have.

• 40:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Step by step, yeah. And they're like, that doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. There's also the theory that people believe that Peter Falconio is still alive and had just faked his own death and disappeared. And maybe she helped him with it, and that's why she's lying. People say that they've seen him.

• 41:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, some people say she's in on it, some people say she's not.

• 41:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but that he's still alive and he, like, just escaped his life.

• 41:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And she's basically, this is her cover story?

• 41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Or

• 41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Or she's not in on it.

• 41:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Those two guys, it's like, I'm kidnapping your boyfriend.

• 41:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 41:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's the most male ideal version. We're just like, no, these are two guys having a prank. It's not a man killing the man so he can rape the woman.

• 41:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And then there's no motive again. Like, he didn't have this crazy debt. He had a lovely family and

• 41:36Karen Kilgariff?

  He's young.

• 41:37Georgia Hardstark?

  He was a very sweet guy. Everyone loved him.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 41:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well.

• 41:40Georgia Hardstark?

  But I, I think all of it just is, it's just all smoke and mirrors to point away from the person who most likely murdered him in the exact way that she said it happened.

• 41:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's interesting because I feel like those, I saw them after the fact eyewitness things.

• 41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  So not helpful.

• 41:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It just feels like they're always wrong.

• 42:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But I mean, man, please come back to me about this within three months because I don't. This is frustrating.

• 42:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I will. I know you hate it. And it's not a cold case. I didn't give you a cold case. It's solved. It's, it's still frustrating.

• 42:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's considered solved. Yeah, that's tough.

• 42:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, also, the police wanted to solve it as soon as possible to, for tourism's sake, you know, and show that they had got the right guy. You'd think that she would have said that he was six foot eight or whatever when describing her attacker. Doesn't seem like she got a great look at him, but.

• 42:37Karen Kilgariff?

  She's in the passenger side. He pulls up behind them and says, pull over, something's wrong. She's sitting in the passenger seat. She's talking to him. She, if she did turn around, it would be headlights in her eyes.

• 42:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. All of the inconsistencies on her, that they place on her can be explained.

• 42:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Georgia Hardstark?

  By logic.

• 42:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yeah.

• 42:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 42:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 42:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Well, great job.

• 42:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 42:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Compelling and interesting and important.

• 43:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, God, I hope.

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 43:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It would just be nice.

• 43:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll let you know.

• 43:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, thank you.

• 43:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.

• 43:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception, his mom.

• 43:21Georgia Hardstark?

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 43:26Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 43:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 43:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 43:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Watch the Hulu original series Phony.

• 43:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

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• 44:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.

• 44:27Georgia Hardstark?

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• 44:32Karen Kilgariff?

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• 44:39Georgia Hardstark?

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• 44:45Karen Kilgariff?

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• 44:53Georgia Hardstark?

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• 44:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I really do love Kachava and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.

• 45:09Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such an easy way to get everything you need and it tastes good too, which is just huge bonus.

• 45:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So embrace your salty side.

• 45:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Go to kachava.com and use code MFM for 15% off your first order.

• 45:19Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM. Goodbye.

• 45:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna take a left turn today in honor of the World Cup.

• 45:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 45:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's happening here in the United States of America. Did you hear about any of this?

• 45:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 45:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's bringing worlds together.

• 45:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 45:37Karen Kilgariff?

  People are having a, this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius moment. Boston and Glasgow, I believe, are now deeply in love and getting married. You're watching a lot of people from the UK come over and like eat real southern food in Georgia and lose their fucking mind.

• 45:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing. I heard something about ranch dressing being prevalent.

• 45:56Karen Kilgariff?

  People are sending it back to themselves. People are getting caught with it in their carry-ons.

• 46:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 46:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And I think for a lot of people here, it's like people here are being reminded of why this is a great country. Somebody-

• 46:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Ranch dressing.

• 46:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's ranch dressing and southern food. And someone said it's like, I've heard this twice now, it's like we're all cousins and our parents don't get along, so we don't like each other.

• 46:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 46:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And we finally got dropped off and we get to have a sleepover.

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And now everyone's having a great time and going, fuck our parents, they're keeping us apart.

• 46:27Georgia Hardstark?

  You realize you've been lied to this whole time by your parents and these kids are awesome. Love that.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Countries are not the governments. That make terrible decisions for them.

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 46:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the people.

• 46:36Georgia Hardstark?

  They force us to pay taxes that go to do terrible things, but we don't want that.

• 46:41Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't want it and we love our fellow man.

• 46:43Georgia Hardstark?

  We do.

• 46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all very beautiful. TikTok.com if you want to get, if you want to jump in on it. It's pretty lovely. So kind of in celebration of that and the fact that I think I've told you this story, but Robin Colasing and I, my sister's friend Adrienne's husband, if we can, we will watch World Cup games. If I'm like home for the summer or around.

• 47:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And the fun thing about it, we started doing it when we were on vacation. Hawaii is getting up and watching them at like 3:30 in the morning.

• 47:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And so be like, someone would get donuts the night before and we would do this whole thing. And then we would be the weirdos in the front room. And of course I don't care about soccer one way or the other, but it was, I love being up in the middle of the night for no reason, for like a weird reason.

• 47:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 47:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're going to do it again when I go home for 4th of July. I know, I'm very excited. By the time this episode airs, which will be on Thursday, July 9th, it'll be the semifinals starting.

• 47:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 47:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And just for your own interest, we have more than 27,000 listeners in Chile.

• 47:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 47:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And 90,000 in Brazil.

• 47:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 47:42Karen Kilgariff?

  So for the listeners that are in those countries, hi, we can't believe you listen to this podcast.

• 47:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 47:48Karen Kilgariff?

  We're so excited.

• 47:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, welcome.

• 47:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely. Welcome. Maybe.

• 47:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Benvenidos.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Google how to say it correctly. Don't use AI. So we're just very excited that you're here. So this story begins September 3rd, 1989.

• 48:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 48:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Just before 5 o'clock PM. It's the South American qualifiers for the 1990 World Cup at the Americana Stadium in Rio de Janeiro. The match is between Brazil and Chile. I'm pronouncing it Chile because that's how you're supposed to pronounce it, but it makes it sound like I know what I'm doing and I absolutely do not, but I feel self-conscious about it. But I'll still say it.

• 48:27Georgia Hardstark?

  We appreciate that.

• 48:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of like an art teacher in high school where it's like, have you ever been to Chile or Brazil? So in this match that I'm telling you about, it's about to take place. Brazil has the advantage, they have the home field advantage, but also Brazil in the soccer. Football, as the rest of the entire globe calls it. In football, Brazil is a powerhouse. The kids play with a smaller, heavier ball as they grow up. So by the time they get to the bigs or even the mids, they are faster and sharper and better at soccer. And it's Brazil is where Pele is from.

• 49:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 49:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's the greatest, many believe the greatest of all time. Basically, Chile is going into this, the underdog, just because Brazil is like the Yankees of football.

• 49:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 49:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Do not write in. No one cares.

• 49:19Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't know.

• 49:20Karen Kilgariff?

  How right or wrong I am.

• 49:21Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't care? Thank you.

• 49:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Just slightly defensive about how much I don't know about what I'm talking about. Okay, so Brazil has won the World Cup five times, more than any other country. But the Chilean fans still have faith their team could beat the odds, thanks in no small part to their 32-year-old captain and the goalkeeper, Roberto Rojas. Robert the Red. He is ready to do whatever it takes to get his team to the World Cup. And that ambition will lead to one of the most notorious incidents in South American sports history.

• 49:54Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I know what you're gonna say.

• 49:55Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the story of the 1989 Brazil versus Chile World Cup qualifiers.

• 50:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this the wrong goal story?

• 50:04Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a lot of elements to this story. Can you see it?

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 50:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Are there waves coming? I'm having the hugest hot flash right now.

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. I thought you were like, please, how angry I am.

• 50:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you see how much I love football?

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So the main sources used for today's story are an episode of ESPN's 34-30 podcast, not 30 by 30, the measurements that I once said that show was entitled by. Also, a 2025 episode of BBC's Sporting Witness podcast and an article by a writer named Daniel Edwards at a little website called gmail.com. And the rest of those sources are in our show notes. So there's already been drama between Brazil and Chile before the playoff match that I'm talking about. Two years before 1987, they went up against each other. In an early round of a tournament called the Copa America, which is between all the Southern American men's national football teams.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Brazil is the favorite to win once again. But when they go head to head with Chile, Chile ends up beating them in a stunning 4-0 upset.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 51:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So the goalie of Chile's team, Roberto Rojas, plays a flawless game. He does not let a single goal get by him, which is no small feat. As journalist Daniel Alarcón puts it, quote, "Quite frankly, goalkeepers are insane. A good goalkeeper has a certain amount of disregard for his or her own safety. They live on the edge."

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, terrifying.

• 51:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So scary. So over his decade-long career, Rojas has done just that, earning respect with his passion, fearlessness, and athleticism that he plays with. Let's take a picture.

• 51:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, please.

• 51:46Karen Kilgariff?

  There he is, superstar of Chile football. He's been caught up in a couple noteworthy scandals, though, from earlier in his career. One involved him lying about his age so he could participate in youth tournaments. It's odd. And another involving doping. Pretty standard scandals for football players. But he is, despite that, a national hero. The fans call him El Condor, because condors are the national symbol of Chile. We're gonna learn a lot today.

• 52:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 52:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And they kind of think he looks like a condor. So it's, but it's all a form of respect.

• 52:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So basically, when Chile goes and whips Brazil's ass at the Copa America in 1987, his national icon status is truly cemented. And ultimately, Chile places second in that tournament. They, as a country, have appeared at the World Cup several times. Their best run was in 1962. This is Chile, when they came in third place. But now this World Cup tournament in 1990 that's gonna be in Italy, this feels like it's their big chance. It's the final days of the brutal military dictatorship of Pinochet. It's a time of major political and social upheaval in the country. Soccer matches have become places where,

• 53:05Karen Kilgariff?

  impassioned Chileans can express their national pride on a global stage. So there's a lot in it for them. The 1989 World Cup qualifiers have Chile and Brazil face off again. They play two games in this qualifier. The first one takes place in Santiago on August 13th at the city's National Stadium. It's called National Stadium. It's nearly at capacity. The crowd is riled up. Look how big the stadium is, just to give you the sense of- Holy shit. It's super bull size and level. I mean, obviously, we know this, but- Yeah. The rest of the world's football is our football. Wow. With different shaped balls. So, all those people going crazy.

• 53:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Normally, both football teams playing that day come out of that tunnel and onto the field together, mostly so that riled up fans don't throw shit at the opposing team, right? So if they're both there, nobody throws anything. And so that is just basically standard play for these qualifiers. But on this day, before Brazil is ready to go, team captain Roberto Rojas just has his team go out first. He leads them out onto the field without Brazil, forcing Brazil to walk into this packed stadium alone. It's an explicit break from protocol. It's meant to rattle Brazil in a crucial pre-game moment. But it's also part of a larger mentality that Chilean journalist Danilo Diaz shorthands

• 54:32Karen Kilgariff?

  as, quote, "Más bandidos que los bandidos," which means, "more bandits than the bandits." Which is basically, "they're going to fuck with you, so fuck with them first." Right. That's kind of the motto in podcasting. Yeah. Not all teams of this era are of this Machiavellian mindset, where the end justifies the means, but some do. And in ESPN's 30 for 30 podcast, they cite a few stories about various Latin American clubs accused of allegedly doing these, these moves. Some have been accused of allegedly drugging their opponents before match- Holy shit. I'd do that to you, all the time. Yeah, right. For your podcast. That was a good one. I have a question.

• 55:16Karen Kilgariff?

  They've also been accused of covertly photographing these players in compromising situations with sex workers, then blowing those pictures up and hanging them around the arena before the game starts.

• 55:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, that is vicious.

• 55:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's fucking insane. Some club managers have been accused of releasing a small dog onto the pitch when the team is ahead to basically run down the clock.

• 55:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh geez.

• 55:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the, that's the third in that list, the least bad. But it's all dirty play and the list goes on and on. So Roberto's move of walking out without the Brazilian team, you know, is kind of that muscling that they do, and it definitely sets a palpable feeling of hostility in the stadium that of course, it's even before gameplay, once the game starts, that tone increases dramatically. So now we're just a minute and a half into the game when a Chilean midfielder aggressively tackles a Brazilian player and injures him. Somehow that Chilean player only gets a yellow card, which is the official warning card. But then as the injured Brazilian player is being taken off the field, a fight breaks

• 56:28Karen Kilgariff?

  out between other players and someone else is injured, and this time a Brazilian player is given a red card, which means he is now kicked out of the game. Afterward, that Brazilian player will tell reporters, quote, "I didn't hit him that hard." So it just started with a bit of violence. Around minute 14, the Chilean player who got the yellow card tries to trip a Brazilian midfielder, and when he realizes he is going to get carded again, which probably means he's going to get red carded, he tries to intimidate the ref.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 57:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So then a Brazilian player steps in to defend the ref while several Chilean players grab their teammate, try to get him to calm down and come over to the bench, basically. And they are all worried he's becoming a liability. So it's a pretty even match between the two teams, and the goalie, Roberto Rojas, is playing a near-perfect game. He defends shot after shot made by Brazil. By halftime, the score is zero to zero, which is a very big deal when teams are playing against Brazil, to just to keep them from scoring.

• 57:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh really?

• 57:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because you can end in a tie, and you can end, just keep them from scoring and get one more than them, and that's all you need to do. I just explained all sports. But 11 minutes into the match's second half, things take a turn when a Chilean defender near the goal, so basically Roberto Rojas, the goalie, is back here by the goal box. And nearby, one of the, another Chilean player needs to basically kick the ball down there so they can go start playing on the other end of the field. But like you anticipated, yep.

• 58:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry.

• 58:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, when he goes to do this, no, because it's famous, he goes to do it and instead of sending it, he hits the back of his own player and it bounces off that guy's leg and goes into the fucking net.

• 58:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So he scores on his own team.

• 58:22Karen Kilgariff?

  On his own team for Brazil.

• 58:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I only know about this because of Vince explaining it to me and it's just.

• 58:27Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a nightmare.

• 58:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And of course, now there's already hostility and bad vibes in the stadium, people go nuts.

• 58:34Georgia Hardstark?

  So he does that on his own home team field with an audience full of.

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Nightmare.

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Like hardcore fans.

• 58:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Tensions are high now this gigantic mistake from the underdog team.

• 58:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Now that I know you're doing this story, I can't believe it. This is so fucked up.

• 58:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 58:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it, yeah.

• 58:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, it's an accidental assisted goal for Brazil. As I said, the bad vibes go from bad to rotten. The score is now 1 to 0 Brazil.

• 59:00Georgia Hardstark?

  But is it the fault of the guy who kicked it or the guy who ricocheted off of?

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  The kicker.

• 59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  But he, okay, he kicked it to his.

• 59:06Karen Kilgariff?

  To his guy, I mean, like, who knows?

• 59:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It's nobody's fault.

• 59:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I literally have watched four soccer games and without a pause, I'm like, it's the fault of the man with the leg. How do I know?

• 59:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I played soccer as a kid. Oh, I swear.

• 59:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I love orange slices.

• 59:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It really is.

• 59:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's like, I would say primary kicker because he was supposed to kick it up and far and then he just kicked it straight over to that guy.

• 59:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 59:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Nightmare. So now there's just seven minutes left in the game and another bizarre thing happens.

• 59:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 59:34Karen Kilgariff?

  After a Brazilian foul, Chile is given a free kick, right? The underdogs have a chance.

• 59:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You can fucking even it up. As long as you don't lose with that point.

• 59:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 59:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone will be fine.

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Just clear, clear it.

• 59:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 59:48Karen Kilgariff?

  But when the Brazilian players hear that Chile's being given a free kick, all the Brazilian players on the field, including their goalie, get furious and they start arguing and confronting the refs and going crazy that this is not fair. And as they're doing that. A Chilean player that's near the ball realizes they never called timeout. And he very subtly passes the ball to a teammate who then just kicks it straight into the goal. It is legal play and they make that point.

• 1:00:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:00:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:00:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So Chile gets a goal, so we're one to one.

• 1:00:25Karen Kilgariff?

  We're one to one.

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything's gonna be fine.

• 1:00:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So, isn't that insane?

• 1:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  That is so bananas.

• 1:00:31Karen Kilgariff?

  They actually review it and it's decided, it's declared legal.

• 1:00:34Georgia Hardstark?

  They yell like, timeout or whatever.

• 1:00:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, they must have, right? So the game ends in a tie, one to one.

• 1:00:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Phew.

• 1:00:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the crowd, they were growing pissed off before, but now the game's over and no one's satisfied. It's like both teams lost to them, essentially. So as the teams walk off the field, the fans just start throwing, they throw batteries, they throw rocks, they throw anything they can.

• 1:00:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Was it battery and rock night?

• 1:00:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It was. B Y O B or R.

• 1:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  They just hand them out when you walk in.

• 1:01:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's got those?

• 1:01:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Come to battery night at Dodger Stadium.

• 1:01:07Karen Kilgariff?

  They said, well, it was like, you know, it was 1990, so there's people with radios.

• 1:01:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Karen Kilgariff?

  But still, it's just a little battery.

• 1:01:13Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like, I'm not throwing my radio, I'm taking my fucking battery.

• 1:01:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Honey, give me your purse. Later on in the locker room, a reporter calls Roberto out for fanning the flames of the fan hostilities by leaving Brazil in the tunnel when they were walking out.

• 1:01:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:01:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And Roberto responds by saying, quote, "Man, we have to use everything we can to win."

• 1:01:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:01:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So there's another game left between these two teams. So they have a final kind of chance to reverse this. Both teams do.

• 1:01:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:01:45Karen Kilgariff?

  According to the way the point system works in the World Cup qualifiers, Chile has to win by at least one goal to stay in the running to play in the World Cup.

• 1:01:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. They just need to get a point.

• 1:01:55Karen Kilgariff?

  They need to get a point.

• 1:01:56Georgia Hardstark?

  One more point than the other guy.

• 1:01:57Karen Kilgariff?

  One more point.

• 1:01:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is how you win.

• 1:01:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything. Now we're back where we started. It's September 3rd, 1989. We're in Rio de Janeiro. We're at the Maracana Stadium. The energy could not be more different than it was in Santiago. The vibes are great. It's described later as a 150,000 person party with a mostly Brazilian crowd. They're all wearing the country's colors. They have tambourines. They have little drums. They're shooting off flares. They're shooting off fireworks in the stands.

• 1:02:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:02:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're all hot. So it's just a great time.

• 1:02:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They're all hot, as in like, good looking?

• 1:02:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we're in Brazil. So the match begins and like probably every other team on Chile, Roberto, the goalie, is playing like his life depends on it. He blocks shot after shot from the Brazilian offenders. The crowd's keyed up. They're cheering when Brazil launches balls towards Chile's goal because it's home team. And when Roberto blocks it, they jeer and they boo and doesn't matter, doesn't shake him. At halftime, the score is still 0-0, which is huge for Chile. They are preventing Brazil from scoring.

• 1:03:04Georgia Hardstark?

  But if they tie, then Brazil wins.

• 1:03:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:03:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:03:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like a sudden death situation.

• 1:03:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 1:03:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So less than five minutes into the second half, a shot finally gets past Roberto. Brazil scores. The stadium erupts in cheers. Doesn't let up. It's now 1-0 Brazil. So everyone, of course, is locked on this game play as the Chileans now have the ball. They're driving it down the field. Some are looking toward their end where Roberto Rojas is standing in the goal box. When a flare suddenly comes down out of the audience and falls onto the field.

• 1:03:40Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:03:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, near him. It lands in a plume of smoke that just seems to swallow him whole.

• 1:03:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Dumbledore?

• 1:03:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it Dumbledore?

• 1:03:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it Job from Arrested Development? After a moment, the smoke clears and the crowd looks in horror as they watch Roberto Rojas writhing around on the ground in pain, clutching his bloody face.

• 1:04:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god, I didn't know this.

• 1:04:06Karen Kilgariff?

  He's immediately carried off the field and into the locker room.

• 1:04:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 1:04:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we have a picture of the flare falling onto the field

• 1:04:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:04:14Karen Kilgariff?

  during the game.

• 1:04:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Some drunk person just, holy shit.

• 1:04:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like a firework.

• 1:04:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And then we have photos, of course, of him being carried off, bloody, being carried off the field. That's him down there and you can see the blood from this side.

• 1:04:29Georgia Hardstark?

  God, that's violent.

• 1:04:30Karen Kilgariff?

  It's crazy. So they get him into the locker room and they find a one and a quarter inch gash across his forehead. In protest of what seems like a blatant attack on their captain by a crazed fan, the Chile players refuse to continue this game. Brazil meanwhile is stunned. They have no idea what's happened. They know it's serious and they also know that this happening could hand Chile the automatic win.

• 1:04:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:04:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So in the aftermath of the game's abrupt ending, many Chileans are of course furious. So it's another one of these weird endings where it's all of a sudden we're just in this insane medical problem and no one really knows what's going on. Some of the Chileans even go protest outside of the Brazilian embassy in Santiago when they go back home.

• 1:05:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, aren't the Brazilians pissed too though? Because they were gonna win, you know.

• 1:05:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, they don't know what's going on. So they don't, they think that maybe their, a fan of theirs is who did this.

• 1:05:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:05:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Like through this flare.

• 1:05:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:05:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? That it was kind of an attack.

• 1:05:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And so they're just kind of not sure what to do about it. But Chile is like, you have attacked our player. You did this on purpose.

• 1:05:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:05:37Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a lot of emotion on the Chilean side, but there's healthy speculation and suspicion about what happened on the Brazilian side. Many onlookers are wondering how a flare would result in the laceration instead of resulting in burns.

• 1:05:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Huh.

• 1:05:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Roberto has no burns. He's insisting the injury was a result of that flare and there is no evidence anything different happened.

• 1:06:00Georgia Hardstark?

  How would he know that was gonna happen? And then like, it's not like he's a wrestler who has like a fucking razor blade in his shit.

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Hidden, yeah, up his sleeve. Right, exactly. So even though hundreds of cameras are present at the match that day, it's initially thought they were all pointed down toward the opposite end of the field.

• 1:06:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:06:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Until. Within hours, a photographer named Ricardo Alfieri comes forward saying that during the game, he saw the flare out of the corner of his eye, and he whipped around and snapped five shots as the flare fell to the ground.

• 1:06:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:06:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And his undeveloped photos get shopped around. He basically goes and shops them to all the Brazilian newspapers. And a newspaper called Oglobo is the one who gets them, buys them. And in the middle of the night, calls the head of their photo lab. She's fast asleep at home. They say, get in here and develop these pictures for us. It is unclear how much Alfieri is paid.

• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to know.

• 1:06:57Karen Kilgariff?

  ESPN says it's around $5,000.

• 1:07:00Georgia Hardstark?

  In 1989?

• 1:07:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Eighty-nine.

• 1:07:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Eighty-nine, 5,000. Today is 10,000?

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  13,000.

• 1:07:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:07:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Close, though. But no one attempts to translate it in Brazilian money.

• 1:07:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, that's the reason.

• 1:07:13Karen Kilgariff?

  We can just assume that it's, he got a bunch of money, much higher than the going rate.

• 1:07:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:07:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So these five photographs run in the Oglobo newspaper the next morning in full color.

• 1:07:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 1:07:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And they clearly show this flare landing several feet behind Roberto Rojas, making no contact with him.

• 1:07:32Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:07:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Then, him throwing his body into the plume of smoke and basically becoming a part of it. There's no contact between this flare and Roberto Rojas. And these photos, like, show that very clearly.

• 1:07:48Georgia Hardstark?

  But he's not even close to it.

• 1:07:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's back there. And he's claiming that the cut is on his forehead.

• 1:07:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:07:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, basically, the pictures go

• 1:07:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Karen Kilgariff?

  that he throws himself into the flare.

• 1:07:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:07:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And then there's blood, right? So now everyone thinks it's in the newspaper. So now everyone thinks it's an elaborate stunt.

• 1:08:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:08:06Karen Kilgariff?

  When police track down the person who set off the flare, they find out it's a young Brazilian fan in her twenties named, we're not sure about the pronunciation of this fan's name, but we think it's Rosaneri Mayo. So, setting off flares was very common at football games in South America, or at least, you know, firecrackers and flares, whatnot, in the 80s. They would do it a lot. Hers just happened to be the one that hit the field.

• 1:08:33Georgia Hardstark?

  She pointed it towards the field?

• 1:08:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, toward the field, but not toward a person.

• 1:08:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:08:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So she's eventually cleared of any involvement in like a conspiracy to injure Rojas. But in a weird twist, the public interest around her becomes so intense, she basically becomes an overnight celebrity. For setting the flare. And a few months later, in November of the same year, she's on the cover of Brazilian Playboy.

• 1:08:57Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:08:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I told you everyone was hot at this game.

• 1:08:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:09:00Karen Kilgariff?

  She's basically identified as the Maracana fireworks girl.

• 1:09:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, she went viral before going viral is viral.

• 1:09:07Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, I'm in this too. But in the end, the investigators conclude Roberto's gash was self inflicted.

• 1:09:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck. What, did he like hit his head on the ground or something?

• 1:09:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Basically, he saw the flare drop.

• 1:09:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he opportunistically was like, he basically was going to injure himself. And then basically, he thought the flare is the perfect excuse to be injured. But basically, he doesn't talk about any of this. He keeps his mouth shut. FIFA, which is the international football governing body, declares Chile the match losers and advances Brazil to the 1990 World Cup. And then months later, after investigating FIFA, hands Roberto a lifetime ban from competition. The team Chile is fined $31,000. And that's how much in today's money.

• 1:09:59Georgia Hardstark?

  $56,000.

• 1:10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  $80,000.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:10:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. So basically Roberto finally has to come clean. And he reveals he slashed himself with a razor blade that he'd hidden in his goalie gloves.

• 1:10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Before the match began.

• 1:10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  What? He's just waiting for a moment to do this?

• 1:10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  He basically had a backup.

• 1:10:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So that in case it was needed, this could take place because they knew that, you know, like the dirty play was going to happen.

• 1:10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Anything could happen. They had to be ready. Idea.

• 1:10:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it. But you ended up being the dirty player.

• 1:10:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And bad dirty.

• 1:10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  He basically says that the idea of doing this was like an insurance policy idea that was lingering in his head, or even an escape hatch to get Chile out of matches that had taken a downward turn. And he didn't act alone. The Chilean head coach and team doctor were also in on this scheme.

• 1:10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 1:10:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So in an interview later, Roberto tells a newspaper, quote, "I cut myself with a razor and the farce was discovered. It was a cut to my dignity and this all runs under the headline, 'I'm guilty.'"

• 1:11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oof.

• 1:11:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So he genuinely seems remorseful, which might explain why in 2001 FIFA rescends that lifetime ban.

• 1:11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And Roberto Rojas goes on to coach goalies in, of all places, Brazil.

• 1:11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Shepherding a new generation of soccer players. And later, he becomes a well-known sports pundit in South America. Despite everything, he's in his 60s now. He is a beloved sports legend in Chile. He's a hero to many fans in Brazil, too. He lives there, he coaches there. His wife, Viviane, has told CNN, quote, "Here in Brazil, Roberto has always been loved. The most important thing for Brazilians is that he has, in his interviews, come across as a human being with a very distinct and good character. And he has admitted his guilt and been forgiven."

• 1:12:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, take responsibility for your bullshit instead of doubling down with a bunch of fucking

• 1:12:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:07Georgia Hardstark?

  lies.

• 1:12:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And being like, hey, how about we talk about the insane pressure that sports puts on the players and the staff to win no matter what at all costs?

• 1:12:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the story of the Condor, Roberto Rojas.

• 1:12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  He fucking cut himself like a wrestler, like a professional wrestler.

• 1:12:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Just exactly like how you described it.

• 1:12:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder how many like, how many times that's actually happened and not gotten found out.

• 1:12:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, what's funny is too, and I think it's also the sweet part of the World Cup having such a profound, beautiful effect on this country.

• 1:12:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Is we can celebrate and enjoy sports without being emotionally invested.

• 1:12:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:12:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Therefore, without beating the shit out of our, the opposing team's fans in the parking lot or something like that.

• 1:12:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And instead, enjoy like, the show of the show. And suddenly, you know, and maybe it's too general, but I think it's true for American male culture, you get to be there and enjoy the fun and the partying and the drinking and the hoo-ha without turning a bus over and lighting it on fire.

• 1:13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you just are like, that's enabling the people in Lawrence, Kansas to fully support the Albanian team, like, they even know what's going on. They're just like, oh no, we're Albanians now because you're here practicing in our town.

• 1:13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:13:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's really lovely, but I mean, this, the other side of sports is that thing where you're just, it's win no matter what, no matter the cause, no matter the cost.

• 1:13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for sure. And putting your own pride in whether that team wins or not.

• 1:13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  How about a little pride and honesty, for fuck's sake? Why is that, why is that so hard?

• 1:13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, well, great job. That was a wild one. I had never heard that before.

• 1:13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Crazy, right?

• 1:13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Hey, have you ever done anything like that? Let us know.

• 1:13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, have you ever pulled a razor blade out of your goalie glove to make other people feel bad?

• 1:14:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Write it in at myfavoritemail for hometown episodes.

• 1:14:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen in Georgia, my name's Stone Cold Steve Austin, and I've pulled a number like this a time or two.

• 1:14:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, great job.

• 1:14:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:14:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Crazy couple stories.

• 1:14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Epic one, I think.

• 1:14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  This show has a summertime vibe to it of like, okay, you're gonna tell me that story, now I'm gonna tell you something. It truly has nothing to do with anything.

• 1:14:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. In the meantime, I'll take a fucking martini that skates.

• 1:14:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so this batch of Honking Hoorays is brought to you by Hyundai.

• 1:14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you Hyundai. Are you ready to do this?

• 1:14:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you go first.

• 1:14:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. The title is "Hooray." And it says, "My hooray is my 63-year-old mother. She was raised in the mountains of Maine with a high school education. She built a career in a male-dominated field, raised me after my dad passed away when I was six. Made sure to take care of my mental health during that time. Endured a decades-long marriage."

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how it was written.

• 1:15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 1:15:03Karen Kilgariff?

  "Endured a decades-long marriage and has just been promoted to director, reporting directly to the C-suite of a nationwide company. She sacrificed so much for everyone around her and somehow still managed to raise a take-no-shit daughter. I'm in awe of her grit, her persistence, and this well-earned accomplishment. Hooray for the glass-ceiling-breaking mama's proud murderino daughter."

• 1:15:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell yeah.

• 1:15:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a "hooray" to start off with.

• 1:15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:29Georgia Hardstark?

  This is from McNeil Colleen on Instagram. It says, "My hooray is that at age 43, I started tap dancing."

• 1:15:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:15:39Georgia Hardstark?

  "I had never danced a day before in my life."

• 1:15:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Signed, Gregory Hines.

• 1:15:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the oldest joke I could possibly have made. That was a really old one.

• 1:15:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I get it. I got you.

• 1:15:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Congratulations, tap dancer, whoever you are. This one is from Slither Anne from Instagram. It says, "I stepped into the Atlantic Ocean for the first time at age 40. It was amazing."

• 1:16:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:16:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go do that right now.

• 1:16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  The Atlantic's a little farther away.

• 1:16:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Okay, this one, this one's really funny. This is from another Colleen. It says, "My hooray is that at 37, I picked up rock tumbling as a hobby."

• 1:16:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:16:18Georgia Hardstark?

  "I bought my seven-year-old a rock tumbling kit for his birthday last summer. He lost interest in the first few days, but I've been hooked ever since. My husband often gently asks me what I plan to do with all these rocks, and I tell him to mind his own business."

• 1:16:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:16:31Georgia Hardstark?

  "I now have two rock tumblers going at all times. Lots of polished rocks and many more waiting to get their turn. Each group of rocks takes between five to eight weeks to complete." And here are some photos of the rocks.

• 1:16:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my god, I think that's a highly valuable rock right there.

• 1:16:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Amethyst?

• 1:16:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Two rock tumblers going? I mean.

• 1:16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Serious business.

• 1:16:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Answer the question. Your husband asked a very valid question. What are you?

• 1:16:55Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you going to do?

• 1:16:55Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you gonna do with all those rocks? This one is from Kendall S. from the fan cult. And Kendall's just saying, "I took my 10-year-old twins to their first concert, Florence and the Machine."

• 1:17:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yes. Wow.

• 1:17:07Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a huge one for... What was your first concert?

• 1:17:10Georgia Hardstark?

  My first real concert was Shane's Addiction at the Hollywood Bowl.

• 1:17:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:17:13Georgia Hardstark?

  What about yours?

• 1:17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  My first real concert was Chicago at the, uh-huh, at the Cow Palace, I believe.

• 1:17:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Were you a 60-year-old businessman?

• 1:17:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I was just like a freshman, and then someone's parents got tickets. And I was like, sure.

• 1:17:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Why not?

• 1:17:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, let's go see a 10-man band.

• 1:17:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you again to Hyundai for letting us do these honking hurrahs. We love them.

• 1:17:32Karen Kilgariff?

  We love them. We love to celebrate you. Stay sexy.

• 1:17:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:17:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:17:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:17:46Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:17:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 1:17:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lasevedo.

• 1:17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Mira McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:17:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:18:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:18:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:18:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

• 1:18:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the "Remind Me" buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.

• 1:18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:18:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:18:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second true crime voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:18:34Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:18:50Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:18:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/troocrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.

• 1:18:58Speaker 05

  Halloween's almost here and I've got plans. My first stop is Total Wine & More for cold beer, ready to drink cocktails and a bottle of wine to share, and I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. B21.

• 1:19:13Speaker 06

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