536 - Smart ‘n Tricky

On today’s episode, Karen covers the “Roofman” robberies and Georgia tells the story of SoHo grifter, Anna Delvey. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 0:42Georgia Hardstark?

  There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.

• 0:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.

• 0:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.

• 0:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.

• 0:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.

• 1:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.

• 1:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.

• 1:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 1:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Hatch Sleep Clock.

• 1:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.

• 1:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:47Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:48Karen Kilgariff?

  That's birthday girl Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're here to birthday podcast for you. If you're watching us on Netflix, there's a gorgeous, and I mean gorgeous, set decoration by our set decorator.

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 2:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Cory.

• 2:05Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so beautiful. It's purple themed, which is just my color. These are, I guess, sweet peas. What is it?

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Sweet peas?

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Correct.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 2:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Flowers.

• 2:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Beautiful. And I asked Molly, because Vince the other day, really casually goes, "So what is your favorite flower?" Anyway. After 13 years.

• 2:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Making small talk after 13 years. Oh.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So I was like, someone asked him and I'm not gonna ask him who it is, but what if he just wanted to know?

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, what if he was actually curious about you? Oh, well, I guess it's just content.

• 2:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything is content. Is it weird that if I were, and I kind of was, born when this podcast started, I'd be 11 years old today?

• 2:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God, that's the best age to be.

• 2:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, 11? Oh, my God.

• 2:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I think when I was around nine, I really started coming into my prime.

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And then it sunsetted around the age of 12. And when I was 13, it was absolutely a disaster.

• 2:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause you're not a girl and you're not yet a woman. As everyone knows.

• 3:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone, but only me and Britney Spears really understood.

• 3:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Really can talk about it.

• 3:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I thought these were fake. They're so beautiful.

• 3:09Georgia Hardstark?

  They are.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 3:10Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, they are beautiful.

• 3:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 3:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's toast this so I can drink this.

• 3:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Happy birthday, Georgia.

• 3:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 3:17Karen Kilgariff?

  You are 11 years old today. Congratulations.

• 3:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, too.

• 3:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Live there.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a book recommendation.

• 3:23Karen Kilgariff?

  For your birthday? If that's what you want for your birthday, you get one thing.

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that's what I want. You're gonna love it. This is a book that's more your style, but I loved it so much, so it kept me in because.

• 3:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Much like Pride and Prejudice.

• 3:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, exactly. It's called When Winter Comes. It's about this teenage girl from Cincinnati in the mid 1800s. She has to flee town. She's lives a rough and tumble life. Prospects are not good for her. Steals some money, gets a buck out of town, finds the first way out, which is a wagon train that she pays her way on with this like German family. So they're going across to the west, like to make their life in California and she's gonna fucking like change her life. And so the Donner Party moves on.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And there they go.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Donner Party Story Perspective Angry Seventeen Year Old Girl.

• 4:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Fifteen.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Fifteen.

• 4:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Smart, plucky, ang- but not

• 4:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Give it to me immediately.

• 4:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Wary. It is so fucking good. And it's just, it's totally, you know, of course fiction, but it's based on so much fact. And I can tell you, nothing will make you like, stop feeling bad for yourself for the fact that you have to clean your house or whatever the fuck than listening to a girl getting through the fucking Donner Party winter. Like,

• 4:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm all, okay, wait, who wrote it?

• 4:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so it's called When Winter Comes by a woman named V.A. Shannon. And I think this was her first novel. And man, it's fucking good.

• 4:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Knocked it out of her.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you think she picked V.A. Shannon in honor of V.C. Andrews?

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, possibly.

• 4:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a cool initial combination.

• 4:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It is.

• 4:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It seems mysterious.

• 4:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so mysterious.

• 4:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It's great. I mean, I'm so excited. Like,

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:01Karen Kilgariff?

  historical fiction is like, oh, that's the way my weird, school-damaged brain can learn. It's like, so exciting.

• 5:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's just, it's immersive. And that's what makes people able to identify with what's going on.

• 5:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Just read it. It's great.

• 5:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I'd like to give you a birthday present.

• 5:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay. I thought that was my birthday present.

• 5:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Just me listening to that recommendation, not turning my back on you. So I, we recorded when it was my birthday episode and you were like, I have something for you coming, right? And then I think the next day, I had a day off and we were recording again that week and we were doing something ahead of time. So I got it in my head. I had to give you a birthday present immedi- like, I had to hurry up and do it. And also, especially with us where literally it's been like, I'm going to get something. You've handed me things that are some of my favorite presents, like months after my actual birthday.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, look at the hot dog phone you gave me. Look at the corn dog portrait hanging in my office. It's just all hot dog themed, which I love.

• 5:59Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is. Well, you know, that's how we know each other.

• 6:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty superficial, but it works.

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm 11. And so of course, hot dogs are my favorite thing.

• 6:06Karen Kilgariff?

  So also cats are your favorite thing?

• 6:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Love cats!

• 6:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And doing what you want is your favorite thing?

• 6:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, it's a tote that says, I do what I want with like a cat drawing on it.

• 6:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So I found that and just the second I saw it, I grabbed it because I was like, I have to get her a present. So it's not like I searched and searched.

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Karen Kilgariff?

  But then,

• 6:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  what I did was include inside a 15-step Korean skincare routine for you.

• 6:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up!

• 6:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That I'm happy to walk you through at any period of time.

• 6:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, did you go to the new store in Pasadena that just opened?

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Olive Young?

• 6:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Not yet. I went to my bathroom sink and under the counter.

• 6:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah. Oh, my God. Thank you so much.

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Estura. We've got Skin 1004. We've got Sungoon Editor.

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Heartleaf Spot Pad. Oh, my God.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  For when you've got some redness. That shit is truly, that's what I used on the road when my skin would get super dry and it would bounce my skin up before, so I could put makeup on it. That's my six peptide. I love that shit.

• 7:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I like this brand a lot.

• 7:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 7:06Georgia Hardstark?

  If you want to see what she got me and see these purple decorations too, you can go to, we're on Netflix. Go check out Netflix.

• 7:12Karen Kilgariff?

  We could do a video that's me telling you about how to do that.

• 7:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That skincare routine.

• 7:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 7:18Karen Kilgariff?

  If that's something that you would want to hear.

• 7:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for the fan cult.

• 7:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh.

• 7:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so join the fan cult if you want to see that, but just watch Netflix if you want to see this.

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  People have been asking for me to drop my skincare routine and essentially it is a version of this because these are all the products I like.

• 7:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it. Thank you so much.

• 7:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Fun, you're welcome.

• 7:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna bring this tote to Italy.

• 7:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Let them know.

• 7:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're gonna love it.

• 7:36Karen Kilgariff?

  You gotta let them know.

• 7:37Georgia Hardstark?

  They're gonna hate me. Thank you.

• 7:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You're welcome. Oh, also, this is not, has nothing to do with the president, but I follow so many Italian creators that do TikToks. There's a guy that just stands, I think I've said this to you, there's a guy that just stands on the street in Florence and he's like, "Frenze, frenze," and he just goes like this and shows you different areas of Florence.

• 7:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Where he's at that day.

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a guy that, one of the first ones I started following, walks around Milan.

• 8:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, send it to me.

• 8:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm going to send it to you, but then I'm also going to watch that livestream and look for you.

• 8:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna find him. Send it to me so I know what he looks like.

• 8:10Karen Kilgariff?

  He looks like a taller Italian, or like an older Italian Brent Weinbach.

• 8:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's very kind of like, "Oh, Milano, Milano."

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 8:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's always like, "Don't you love it here?" And I'm always like, "Yes."

• 8:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I want to see that. I want to see that.

• 8:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I just love the idea that one day I'd be like that, you and Vince are crossing in the background.

• 8:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna message him now. I'm gonna get my people, my reps.

• 8:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 8:29Georgia Hardstark?

  To message this Italy influencer.

• 8:32Karen Kilgariff?

  What would be fun for me is if you went around and tried to find, I think his name is Yugi, who's the guy that speaks almost every language, so he walks up and goes, "Excuse me, where are you from?"

• 8:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And then they say, "You wouldn't know where it is," and then he starts speaking the language and you want to cry because it's so touching and beautiful.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And they love it and it's like, then they're suddenly like, they are best friends.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 8:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So good.

• 8:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That and the guy who's like, what's your people's dance? And then he learns their dance, like whatever, you know, customary dance.

• 8:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And then he does a little dance on the street?

• 8:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And he does it with them. They teach him and we're all friends and there's world peace.

• 9:02Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Through dance.

• 9:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Through dance and language.

• 9:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And language.

• 9:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And streets.

• 9:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And pastries.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And Europe. Do you have some words of wisdom here on your birthday this year?

• 9:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, oh, man.

• 9:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Stop it.

• 9:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Okay. Uh, let me think.

• 9:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Listener Georgia just started poking the flowers to try to think of.

• 9:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I guess that your 40s are so much better. Don't be scared of them. It's the chill, not give a fuck that comes with aging is incredible. And also to remember that aging is a privilege and not everyone gets to do it. So shut the fuck up and get in the photo and live your life.

• 9:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. No, that was good.

• 9:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 9:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Now I'd say it again, but go live your life and act like you believed it.

• 9:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I'll say in Italian.

• 9:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Not live your life. And I guess live. I don't know.

• 9:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a podcast network.

• 9:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Here we go.

• 9:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly right. Media. Here are some highlights.

• 9:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice. This week on Brief Recess, Michael and Melissa celebrate Pride Month with an important conversation about protecting LGBTQ youth. They also break down the Supreme Court's recent ruling and what it means for the future of conversion therapy laws.

• 10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  That's still happening?

• 10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's going backwards at a rate that is, of course, alarming for most people, for most human beings that care about other human beings. It is insane.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No. If something was a joke in the 90s, you can't bring it back. It just doesn't fucking work that way. Then over on Dear Movies, I Love You, Millie and Casey continued Jew nasty with a deep dive into Lucio Full Cheese's The Beyond from 1981.

• 10:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Good pronunciation.

• 10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Plus, they present yet another installment of film etiquette tackling the proper way to behave during movie previews.

• 10:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Very specific.

• 10:43Georgia Hardstark?

  I, yeah.

• 10:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the previews itself. Love it. Where to clap and scream, where not to.

• 10:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know these things.

• 10:51Karen Kilgariff?

  OK, then over on Disgrace Land, Jake Brennan tells the story of the Hillsborough disaster.

• 10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 10:55Karen Kilgariff?

  You covered that. This special World Cup episode examines the tragedy, the massive cover up that followed, and the fight for justice that changed sports forever.

• 11:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That is one of the most riveting stories I've ever heard.

• 11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Riveting and horrifying.

• 11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Over on Ghosted, Roz welcomes drag icon Ginger Minj. They discuss psychic intuition, a haunted community theater, and Ginger's encounter with a ghost hand.

• 11:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. Forehand massage?

• 11:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a single hand. Is that scarier or less scary than a full ghost?

• 11:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Less.

• 11:28Karen Kilgariff?

  More?

• 11:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a creepy hand?

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Pick one.

• 11:31Karen Kilgariff?

  What if Ginger was just on the Addams Family set and didn't know it? This week on I Said No Gifts, Bridger is joined by both Beck Bennett and Kyle Mooney of SNL fame, two for over there. They discuss Lamborghini posters, you know, all the stuff boys like. Lamborghini posters, cigar theft, and the best way to park at Disneyland.

• 11:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 11:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Goofy.

• 11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And then finally on Trust Me, Lola and Megan sit down with comedian Maria Bamford to chat about her new book, Sure, I'll Join Your Cult. That's the book. They discuss the cultishness of 12-step programs, the Suzuki method, and how OCD can make people more susceptible to high-control groups. Interesting.

• 12:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I saw Maria on her way out after she recorded that, and I was like, what are you doing? Or whatever. She is just the funniest.

• 12:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 12:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Most fascinating person. I adore her.

• 12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, everything that comes out of her mouth is just like...

• 12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  She's so fun.

• 12:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  OK, and then also just over in the merch corner, we're celebrating Georgia's birthday by supporting all of her artistic endeavors.

• 12:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 12:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Including, this is what we call the Supped mug, and that's the Supped koozie. This is when Georgia went to art school. She came back and she said, I've got a project.

• 12:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so disappointing. Like, I can, I know that's my handwriting, and I can spot it from a million miles away because it's just so like, it's like a teenage boy's handwriting.

• 12:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. What is the Supped reference again?

• 12:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought the guy's first name was Supped. The cop, but actually superintendent is what that stands for. So it kind of is like a teenage boy. Also, I wrote that when we were in a meeting like joking about what merch we wanted. So I didn't write that with the handwriting that I like save for public consumption.

• 13:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 13:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is, I mean.

• 13:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is the better way, right? It's like a great trick.

• 13:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So get your supped merch today.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  If you are friends with anyone in law enforcement or any teenage boys, this is the merch for them.

• 13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Great call.

• 13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Dads and grads.

• 13:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, you can get that on exactlyrightstore.com.

• 13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And stay tuned after this episode because we will be showing you a brand new Honking Hooray. We just made it.

• 13:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Just made a bunch of them and we really like them.

• 13:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Very fun.

• 13:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. All right. Cause it's my birthday. You go first.

• 13:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Let me get just a little, a little bit of a.

• 13:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I was thinking about your birthday.

• 13:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm. Nothing worse than a champagne drunk and then you have acid stomach and.

• 13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  God, it's so fun for.

• 13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That just took you somewhere.

• 13:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It really did.

• 13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Like you just went away.

• 13:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Like little Polaroids that drop out of a filing cabinet and I find them inside my mind and go, who dropped those here?

• 14:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank God there weren't actual photos taken of the time because we didn't have to deal with that.

• 14:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Again.

• 14:08Georgia Hardstark?

  So lucky.

• 14:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoever's in charge, I appreciate you just sliding my timeline back a little bit. So that 11 year old me doesn't go like, the world needs to see me sing Annie. Or whatever stupid bullshit I was always doing.

• 14:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Hence this podcast.

• 14:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Hence fucking this.

• 14:25Georgia Hardstark?

  This is what happens. This is the answer to not posting yourself is then you just make a whole fucking podcast about yourself.

• 14:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly.

• 14:32Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are right around the corner, which means people are about to do a lot of shopping.

• 14:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And if you have a small business, they could be shopping with you.

• 14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Get your business ready with Shopify.

• 14:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Shopify is the platform for a record breaking, reliable holiday selling season at every stage.

• 14:46Georgia Hardstark?

  They power millions of businesses worldwide from household names to those that are just getting started.

• 14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Shopify's pre-built website themes make it easy to launch a beautiful, professional looking store without ever touching a line of code.

• 14:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And Shopify's mobile app lets you run your store from anywhere, from tracking inventory to customer support to handling payments and more.

• 15:04Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/murder to start your free trial.

• 15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Shopify.com/murder.

• 15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to Shopify.com/murder today to hear your first.

• 15:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 15:19Karen Kilgariff?

  My story begins in the summer of 2004, when you were peaking. George W. Bush was president, you remember him. Final season of Friends had just wrapped up. The song "This Love" by Maroon 5 was the only song they would play on the radio legally. And the steadily growing popularity of the new concept called online retailers was changing the way people were shopping. But we were still in the era where big box stores reigned supreme. And for kids in the early 2000s, of course, there was nothing better than a trip to your local Toys R Us.

• 15:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 15:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And although the Toys R Us in Charlotte, North Carolina was just like all the other Toys R Us's around the nation, something weird had been happening at this particular store lately. When staffers would arrive to open up in the morning, they'd see like bike tire marks on the laminate flooring that were not there when they left the night before. Alarms would get tripped overnight. But when the police would show up, no one would be there and nothing would have been taken. So the staff starts to joke, they're dealing with a ghost. A ghost hand. But after a few months, an employee notices that near a display, I would love to actually be able to watch how this person actually did this. But there was a display. And someone notices a Spider-Man sheet sticking out of the back of the display.

• 16:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're like, what is that? And then they pull on the sheet and they basically expose that there is like a little space behind this display thing. Like in the wall. And so when they look into this space, they find an inflatable pool float that looks like it's being used as a bed. They find a Spider-Man 2 movie poster from the store's own shelves. And they see a couple of other personal touches here or there. This is the moment that the Toys R Us staff realize their store ghost is actually a real man. They assume it's someone homeless. And what I love about this store staff, they don't call the cops, they don't do anything. They just are like, well, that's none of our business. They should have though, because in truth, this man was a fugitive from the law.

• 17:23Karen Kilgariff?

  A criminal known for rappelling down from ceilings into stores to commit his robberies. Kind of like Spider-Man. This is the story of the criminal known as Roof Man.

• 17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Was this made into a movie recently?

• 17:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it was, starring none other than Channing Tatum.

• 17:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Okay.

• 17:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So, sources for this story are several deep dive articles from the Charlotte Observer by reporters Theoden James and Julia Coyne, and then a 2024 SF Gate article by reporter Katie Dowd. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, this truly begins in 1998, when a string of robberies are reported, basically in a very short amount of time, back to back, mostly in Northern California, although crimes with very similar MOs are also reported on the East Coast, too. More than 40 businesses, often a McDonald's, are hit by what investigators will come to believe is the same person. They have no idea who this guy is. Witnesses describe their robber as being somewhere between 18 and 30 years old, anywhere

• 18:23Karen Kilgariff?

  from 5'7" to 6'3", and having an athletic build.

• 18:27Georgia Hardstark?

  So, Channing Tatum.

• 18:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Channing Tatum, but real vague.

• 18:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:30Karen Kilgariff?

  These are usually armed robberies. In some cases, the perp fires his weapon to maintain control. In one case, he actually did pistol whip someone. Then usually, the MO is he locks the employees into the walk-in cooler, then he goes and bags up all the cash that he can find and escapes. But witnesses tend to describe him as very polite, except for those couple examples. Most of the time, the witnesses say that in all of these crimes. He uses words like "please" and "ma'am." One time, while forcing employees to walk into the walk-in cooler, he told them all to grab their jackets first. In one robbery fitting this MO at a McDonald's in Belmont, North Carolina in the year 2000, witnesses say the robber tells the staff, quote, "You're the good people.

• 19:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm the bad guy. I'm sorry for doing this to you."

• 19:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 19:18Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. Aside from all that, one thing that really makes these crimes feel connected is how the perpetrator breaks in at each scene. He cuts a two foot by two foot hole into the roof. And then he lowers himself through that hole and then repels himself down to the floor. Hence the nickname Roof Man that he eventually earns by doing this over and over. I think we have a picture of one of those.

• 19:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's a hole.

• 19:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Fitting himself through that.

• 19:47Georgia Hardstark?

  In the roof.

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh.

• 19:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that's smart.

• 19:49Karen Kilgariff?

  With like climbing guy gear on, Patagonia style.

• 19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  He always did it.

• 19:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Crampons?

• 19:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Can he borrow a crampon from you? He always did it when businesses were closed, no customers were ever present. He would just ambush the staff as they were either opening or closing the store, which made me laugh, thinking about when we used to work at the Gap. And when we'd close the store and we would have to fold everything down and like get the store together. Me and my friend Dawn Fraser would sing. So like someone else would be like, sing a song Dawn, or sing a song Karen. And we so obnoxiously would like blah, blah, blah. And the idea of that, and then a guy just busts through the roof and like holds a gun on everybody, was like how I was picturing that. We're like, it's the least ready you can be in your twenties working retail.

• 20:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I was thinking like, what a bummer it would be if he came at close rather than at opening, when you could go home for the rest of the day. Like, I have to work a whole fucking shift and then I have to fuck in? And I'm not scheduled again until Wednesday, so I can't be like, I'm traumatized and not come in.

• 20:47Karen Kilgariff?

  True.

• 20:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, do it in the morning so I can go home.

• 20:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, counterpoint. If you do it at night, the cops come, the firemen maybe come, maybe an ambulance comes. Then you could go out with those guys after.

• 20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Everybody's like, is everyone okay? Blah, blah, blah, close it down, we got our report.

• 21:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Win, win.

• 21:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's go to TGI Fridays. Okay, basically, these robberies go on for about a year and a half. And then in May of the year 2000, he robs the Belmont, North Carolina McDonald's, the one where he tells them he's the bad guy and they're the good ones. At that one, he grabs several thousand dollars in cash and he flees the scene. Almost as soon as he's gone, the employees break back out of the walk-in cooler and call the police. From like, how many times have you guys gotten stuck in the walk-in cooler?

• 21:30Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 21:31Karen Kilgariff?

  They were just like, okay, well, do you know there's a latch?

• 21:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Wait till he's gone.

• 21:35Karen Kilgariff?

  We always just put the broom in that.

• 21:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why we broke the door on purpose.

• 21:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 21:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So they call the police not long after. A policeman in the area notices a lone car parked in a church parking lot. But it's Saturday, so of course, it's not a busy morning for the church, even in the South. So it stands out that this car is just sitting there. And so he's kind of watching the car and like assessing. And as he does, a man comes sprinting out of the nearby woods towards the car. Then sees the cop, turns around, darts over a tall fence, turns and runs and jumps over a fence and runs back into the woods.

• 22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No darting when you're trying to avoid the cops. Darting is like a dead giveaway that you're fucking.

• 22:12Karen Kilgariff?

  You've got to stroll.

• 22:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Whistling wouldn't hurt. But no, you can't just immediately turn and run somewhere.

• 22:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not a cat.

• 22:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Really quick, my favorite story of being at a party and the cops came in San Francisco.

• 22:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And then how'd you get out?

• 22:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Wasn't us. The two girls next to us turn and scale a 10-foot fence. And we're watching them do it. And then a guy that's standing on our side, like we watched them both go over.

• 22:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I was like, holy shit, did they have fucking warrants or something? What's going on? And then this guy just reaches up and opens the fence and it was a fucking door right there. And they could have like killed themselves.

• 22:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's impressive that they just parkour over the fence.

• 22:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They've.

• 22:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Drunk.

• 22:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They like panic parkoured themselves over that fucking fence.

• 22:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Drinking does is it makes you think that you can just, I can parkour.

• 22:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it's like the confidence, like, oh, no, this is real. I'm really in danger.

• 23:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Send us your stories of parkouring out of trouble. That'd be my favorite murder at Gmail.

• 23:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially if they involve high school parties.

• 23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Karen Kilgariff?

  A manhunt ensues, of course. They call in a bunch more officers. They quickly track him down. He's taken into custody and he's identified as 29-year-old Army Sergeant Jeffrey Manchester.

• 23:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, he's not a superintendent?

• 23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  No, he's not. He's a supped. He's not, he's, he's in the Army now. He admits to robbing two separate North Carolina McDonald's within the last 24 hours.

• 23:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Just hours before he robbed the Belmont location, he had already targeted one in Gastonia, North Carolina. So the roof man was born Jeffrey Manchester in Sacramento, California in 1971.

• 23:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey.

• 23:40Karen Kilgariff?

  According to reporter Katie Dowd for SFgate, quote, "By all indications, he had a typically sunny California childhood," end quote. After graduating high school, he gets married, he has kids, he enlists in the military, he's trained as a paratrooper. And in that training, he is taught how to climb up to and jump from and rappel off of nerve-wracking heights.

• 24:03Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 24:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And from.

• 24:04Georgia Hardstark?

  It's all adding up.

• 24:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so by 1999, a year into the Roof Man robbery series, Jeffrey and his family are stationed in Concord, California, which is in the Bay Area. November of that same year, police responded to a domestic disturbance at Jeffrey's home. We don't know what that involved. What we know is that soon after, his wife files for divorce and gets custody of the kids. So for the next few months, Jeffrey's life is, the details are spotty. Less than a year after the domestic incident, he's arrested in North Carolina for robbery. Then he tells police the locations are incidental. He's only been to North Carolina for a couple of days, being dispatched here for work, and the work was over. He's supposed to go back to California, but instead, he decided he is going to drive

• 24:50Karen Kilgariff?

  his rental car west through North Carolina, and as he did, hit one McDonald's after another.

• 24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 24:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So it sounds to me like he's like the man who's lost everything that mattered to him.

• 25:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And now he's just kind of...

• 25:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a fuck-it move.

• 25:03Karen Kilgariff?

  A true fuck-it move. Coincidentally or not, Jeffrey used to work at a California McDonald's.

• 25:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that makes sense. I think people do that. Like, you have to look at your ex-employees first, right? When something like that happens.

• 25:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, because there's this automatic familiarity. Like, if you drop in, you know...

• 25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  What time they do this, and what happens here, and how to get in.

• 25:24Karen Kilgariff?

  What's automated.

• 25:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:24Karen Kilgariff?

  What you can't get into, and it won't matter.

• 25:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Who has keys to what. We could go on and on.

• 25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And we will on the fan cults.

• 25:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what we do.

• 25:33Karen Kilgariff?

  We just list other options.

• 25:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And then? He could have kept his uniform and just strolled on in like he fucking worked there.

• 25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  He could have loved frozen french fries and just ate them out of the bag.

• 25:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, motive-wise, he tells police it was to, quote, "pay bills and buy things for my kids," end quote. He also says, quote, "I will do everything I can to fix this situation. I still have a lot to give the community and the Army. I thought it was going to be quick cash, and I ended up scaring people and wasting the police's time as well, and I am sorry for that." Little police ass kissing in there at the end. It's nice to hear, um, in total, the amount stolen in all of these Roof Man robberies is somewhere around a hundred thousand dollars, which would be-

• 26:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Two thousand four?

• 26:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Birthday style.

• 26:15Georgia Hardstark?

  A hundred thousand in today's money is two hundred and ten thousand.

• 26:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a hundred and ninety thousand. You're within twenty thousand, that means you win a birthday.

• 26:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 26:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Would you have changed that number if you'd known that nineteen ninety-nine was really the era we were talking about, kind of five years earlier?

• 26:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 26:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That would have taken it down by twenty thousand.

• 26:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, I would have, yeah.

• 26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Ding ding ding.

• 26:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It's kind of on you.

• 26:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you win. Yep, it's all my fault. So, ultimately, it doesn't really matter that amount because he's charged with several felonies and he ends up being sentenced to thirty-five years in prison.

• 26:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  The police are confident Jeffrey is behind the forty-plus, almost identical robberies committed across the country. Many of the businesses hit are located in areas Jeffrey has either lived in or visited because of work. He maintains that it was a different guy.

• 27:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not him. Different paratrooper, whatever the fuck it is.

• 27:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it was a, it was a different guy that cut a two-by-two hole in the ceiling, rappelled down into the store, politely forced employees to walk into a cooler.

• 27:10Georgia Hardstark?

  At the same restaurant that he used to work at.

• 27:12Karen Kilgariff?

  At his old job.

• 27:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Over and over again.

• 27:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Both have athletic builds.

• 27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a different guy. Could be a copycat, could be a fan. I think we have a picture of Jeffrey, there's an arrest picture, yeah.

• 27:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's not a good picture.

• 27:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I disagree. First of all, if you're gonna go to Italy, they all look like this there.

• 27:29Georgia Hardstark?

  He does look like an Italian.

• 27:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He looks like a real-

• 27:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, a mamma mia. Okay. So how do we get from this to Channing Tatum, is my question?

• 27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, later on, he will say, when he is told that they're making this movie and they tell him they cast Channing Tatum, he said, "You need to get someone uglier."

• 27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got a Jason Biggs. Is that what his name is?

• 27:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:51Georgia Hardstark?

  From-

• 27:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Jason Biggs, but also, who's the guy, I actually went to see this guy live when he was in the Lena Dunham movie a couple of years ago. Molly, who's the guy that-

• 28:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Was he on-

• 28:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Burnthal?

• 28:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 28:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, John Burnthal.

• 28:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 28:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I wish I could have pulled that name.

• 28:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That was good.

• 28:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 28:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 28:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, Jeffrey does not go quietly and just serve his prison time. In January of 2004, which is four years into his sentence, he escapes prison.

• 28:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 28:18Karen Kilgariff?

  By.

• 28:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Parkour.

• 28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Total parkour.

• 28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut up.

• 28:20Karen Kilgariff?

  But he does it kind of reverse. He clings to the undercarriage of a delivery truck until it gets outside the gates.

• 28:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Man, they should have given him that one.

• 28:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 28:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean? Like, well, yeah, dude, we should have caught that.

• 28:30Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're gonna Indiana Jones this thing, very few people can do that.

• 28:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Are bad, so.

• 28:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I couldn't do it.

• 28:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like finders keepers, I guess.

• 28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So somehow he's able to hang on underneath the goddamn truck until it gets far enough away.

• 28:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 28:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he lets go, I assume he rolls off into a ditch.

• 28:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 28:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Stands up, dusts himself off, cracks his own neck. And then he waves down the next car.

• 28:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't.

• 28:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And they pick him up.

• 28:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't they have those signs that are like, don't pick up hitchhikers?

• 29:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Is what I'm saying.

• 29:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Prison right there, y'all?

• 29:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And on top of which, the driver turns out to be an employee of the prison.

• 29:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Friend.

• 29:09Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 29:09Georgia Hardstark?

  You need to not, and is he wearing like prison fucking?

• 29:12Karen Kilgariff?

  He must.

• 29:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Garb?

• 29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't imagine, he must have planned ahead enough.

• 29:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Because, right, I think that would be a huge giveaway unless this person.

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got his civvies on, is what they call it, right?

• 29:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, somehow, I wish I knew.

• 29:24Georgia Hardstark?

  He, he worked in the laundry.

• 29:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I, uh.

• 29:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Borrowed some clothes.

• 29:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Told the warden that he had a wonderful way of pressing jackets.

• 29:32Georgia Hardstark?

  He said, you're wearing that wrong, let me show you how to wear that correctly.

• 29:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Girl, give me that and sit down.

• 29:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And then the warden was like, I'm gonna let you keep it, because it looks so good on you.

• 29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what? So pretty in that jacket, you keep it.

• 29:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Keep it.

• 29:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, cut to, that same warden being like, get in this car. Wouldn't that be amazing if it was all the one super stupid employee? Yeah, that was my thing, and I wrote in all caps, in what world are hitchhikers outside of a prison given the benefit of the doubt, and then dot, dot, dot, by a prison employee?

• 30:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 30:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe this was a situation that then brought us to the signs.

• 30:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 30:08Karen Kilgariff?

  They had to put up signs that say, hey, you're driving by a prison. Hitchhikers would be a bad.

• 30:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Direction to take.

• 30:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, you put two and two together.

• 30:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, if you don't mind. But the answer is no.

• 30:19Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 30:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So, he then, from the gas station, finds another ride, hitches about 50 miles down the highway to Charlotte, North Carolina. And then, he sees a Toys R Us store, the one I was talking about in the beginning.

• 30:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 30:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He sees that in a distance and he starts to get some ideas.

• 30:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay, we're back to the beginning.

• 30:35Karen Kilgariff?

  We've come back.

• 30:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 30:37Karen Kilgariff?

  The roof man knows that any big box store is gonna have plenty of nooks and crannies for him to hide in. So, he stakes out the building, he goes during normal business hours and walks around. He spots a small opening behind a store display. And he's like, this is it, this is my big chance.

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Zoop.

• 30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Zoops right in and waits until the store closes and then zoops back out.

• 31:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Kinda brilliant.

• 31:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, I don't, like, the fact that he has an athletic build, but he's shimmying in and out of things that are very small.

• 31:09Georgia Hardstark?

  He's shimmying, he's, what was he doing earlier?

• 31:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Parkouring.

• 31:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Parkouring, but also zooping. But then, what was the other one where he was not whistling and being, whatever, nevermind?

• 31:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Darting.

• 31:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Darting.

• 31:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Darting. Yeah, he's got a lot of speeds.

• 31:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're all effective.

• 31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It is my nightmare to be like, hey, can you get behind that display really quick? And be like, I won't be able to, I won't be able to.

• 31:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Aw.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't make me go back there. He does it, then, when he comes out, when the store is closed, this is all 12-year-olds' fantasies, which it seemed like he was living in every way.

• 31:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:42Karen Kilgariff?

  He raids the candy aisle.

• 31:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  He raids the baby food aisle.

• 31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  That makes sense, cuz he needs some protein.

• 31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  He needs the protein he needs, and it's like, oh, I love apricots, I'll blend it up. So organic.

• 31:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so smart.

• 31:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he starts shooting Nerf basketballs into basketball hoops. He watches DVDs, he can watch any DVD he wants, they have them all. He plays video games, he drives remote-controlled cars.

• 32:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And he, in his version of the story, he's doing it for exercise. He cruises around on the children's bikes, and that's how they see the tire marks in the morning when the employees come in.

• 32:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But then, it's more diabolical than just a man playing with toys.

• 32:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Karen Kilgariff?

  He actually figures out how to turn off certain security cameras and how to access the software that manages the staff's schedule. He starts to pick and choose who shows up for work when. Based on like his convenience. So he's like, well, I want to ride my bike till 7 a.m. So Maureen's not coming in till eight.

• 32:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Type of thing.

• 32:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Is how I imagined it.

• 32:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Poor Maureen. Poor Maureen. She's like, I just need to manage this fucking Toys R Us. He then rigs a bunch of baby monitors to make his own little security system.

• 32:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Dude.

• 32:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's able to, with these baby monitors, keep tabs on every corner of this store while he's eating baby food in a nook.

• 33:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry, but he would win traders so fucking hard. Like, he would win traders, or what's the one where they all live on an island?

• 33:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Love Island?

• 33:10Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no. Not that one. The one where they survive, not love. Survivor. He'd win.

• 33:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, because he's going to figure out a way.

• 33:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's make this happen.

• 33:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  So he lives like this for a while, but then he somehow discovers the Toys R Us shares a wall with the closed Circuit City next door.

• 33:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 33:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he discovers there's, the reporting is unclear. It's either a doorway or a tunnel that's connecting the two stores.

• 33:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 33:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So he basically makes a second living area for himself over in the abandoned Circuit City in the combination Circuit City Toys R Us.

• 33:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's abandoned.

• 33:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's closed.

• 33:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, closed, okay, got it.

• 33:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Abandoned would be weird for Circuit City. It's like, just get away, just run.

• 33:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and actually, in 2004, I think it'd be really creepy to have seen a closed Circuit City.

• 33:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's like, give us three years.

• 33:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And we'll close everything.

• 34:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why when the Bed Bath & Beyond on Ventura closed, it truly, I'd stayed in for the day because I was like, this is not good.

• 34:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Not good.

• 34:08Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 34:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So scary.

• 34:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, all the Bed Bath & Beyond's.

• 34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Okay, so over at Circuit City Stairwell Headquarters, Jeffrey has now upgraded from the old pool float to a children's mattress that he brought over from Toys R Us, along with another set of Spider-Man sheets, a bunch of assorted-

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so telling that that's what he picks as his sheets.

• 34:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 34:28Georgia Hardstark?

  He didn't just grab a pair of sheets.

• 34:30Karen Kilgariff?

  No, he shopped, and he also had the poster of Spider-Man 2 on the wall.

• 34:33Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got a complex.

• 34:34Karen Kilgariff?

  There's some, I mean, it would be really fun to live in a toy store.

• 34:37Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure.

• 34:38Karen Kilgariff?

  We've all agreed that. In third grade. There's also Yoda figurines, different ones, and of course, a stack of DVDs among them, Spider-Man 2. So, a couple more months pass, and his little setup leads him to get overconfident about his ability to evade detection.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He starts going out in public during the day, not playing it cool. So, he literally talks to anyone and everyone he comes across, introducing himself as John Zorn. He claims to work in a secretive capacity for the government.

• 35:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is what you tell everyone when you're working for, in a secretive capacity for the government.

• 35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 35:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 35:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That you lead with it.

• 35:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you can say that, but then you just can't say what it is.

• 35:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna start a conversation by telling you, I can't talk during this conversation.

• 35:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't talk about this.

• 35:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, very normal.

• 35:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So, a Charlotte police captain tells reporters, quote, "If you draw a donut around that Circuit City, I bet he'd talk to everyone within a mile."

• 35:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Mmm.

• 35:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So, here's the other thing. It's like, you can go in and ride your bikes and eat your candy all you want, but if you're alone, you're going to get busted.

• 35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You can have all of it, and if you're alone, you're, you'll go crazy.

• 35:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:45Karen Kilgariff?

  You need some people, you need some interaction.

• 35:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 35:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm saying this to myself.

• 35:48Georgia Hardstark?

  (laughing)

• 35:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Leave the house, Karen. So, he joins a gym.

• 35:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 35:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He, he doesn't just talk to people. He joins a gym, he goes to the dentist. Police think that was because of all the candy and the baby food.

• 36:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 36:02Karen Kilgariff?

  He gave himself cavities. He also starts attending service at the local Presbyterian church, developing a close relationship with his new pastor and other parishioners. And in fact, he starts dating one of those parishioners, a woman named Lee. She later describes him as, quote, "Funny, romantic, the most sensitive man I've ever met. Guy that every girl would want."

• 36:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, except he lives in a Toys R Us.

• 36:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Spider-Man 2.

• 36:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's a fucking villain. Or, not villain, felon.

• 36:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He believes himself to be Spider-Man 2.

• 36:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's me, that's real Spider-Man. I'm Spider-Man too.

• 36:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 36:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a sad lens through which all women look at everything now, where it's just like,

• 36:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 36:42Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you, some burglar that drops through the roof?

• 36:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Fine.

• 36:45Karen Kilgariff?

  The better you seem, the more you're like a burglar.

• 36:47Georgia Hardstark?

  You don't tell women to smile? Fine, we can date.

• 36:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Great. Take me to Circuit City. Okay, so Jeffrey goes out every day and really carpe is the DM. I wrote that down.

• 36:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's funny.

• 36:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Embarrassed. At night, he quietly returns to his lair like the Phantom of the Toys R Us, Dash Circuit City, in half a Spider-Man mask. So, it's been six months now since he's broken out of prison, or escaped from. As a fugitive, it's very hard for him to actually make money. And he has things to pay for. He has his teeth to pay for. He has the gym to pay for. He has his girlfriend, Lee, who he's literally falling in love with, to pay for.

• 37:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Can't imagine. Part of that is his alimony that he's paying for, and the child support that is probably needed

• 37:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 37:30Georgia Hardstark?

  by his ex-wife.

• 37:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Very badly, yes. While he's fucking around riding bikes.

• 37:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, dating.

• 37:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's such a great point. Maybe there is a real mental breakdown that was like, I will get away from everything and start all over again.

• 37:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Be a child.

• 37:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Karen Kilgariff?

  A child who can rappel off of walls.

• 37:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 37:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So as these costs are adding up, he's realizing, I need money. So he returns to his passion robbery. And on December 26, 2004, one of the busiest shopping days of the year, day after Christmas, when he knows the registers will be filled with cash, he hits the Toys R Us that he has actually been hiding out next to.

• 38:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 38:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He's living in the Circuit City, but still doing fun stuff at the Toys R Us. He robs that Toys R Us.

• 38:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It's his vacation home.

• 38:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. But it's so clear, like, so you rob the Toys R Us, the cops come, we don't know how much he actually stole.

• 38:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Cops come, and then thoroughly search the Toys R Us, and then, of course, find the connection to the Circuit City.

• 38:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They do.

• 38:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they find all of it.

• 38:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 38:31Karen Kilgariff?

  They find the stairwell living area. They take fingerprints there and then those fingerprints trace right back to our own Jeffrey Manchester, who is the fugitive.

• 38:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 38:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And the roof man. So they circulate Jeffrey's mugshot on the news and in newspapers and it spooks him. He goes to the dentist's office and sets it on fire.

• 38:50Georgia Hardstark?

  What? That's not the next step I was assuming.

• 38:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he'll keep you guessing.

• 38:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 38:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a true paratrooper that way. The police theorize he was trying to destroy any record of John Zorn existing. But the dentist's office does not burn down.

• 39:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they rarely do.

• 39:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they can't. It's all like.

• 39:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Resin.

• 39:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Porcelain, yeah, cement and paint. But now parishioners are coming forward from his new church.

• 39:15Georgia Hardstark?

  They always fucking do that, man. They are such fucking narcs.

• 39:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Why, we know John.

• 39:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Why, John?

• 39:21Karen Kilgariff?

  He's in Concord, California, and I'm giving him that accent. When police talk to his girlfriend, Lee, she is of course shell shocked, but agrees to help lure him out of hiding by asking him to hang out.

• 39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 39:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Because she mad.

• 39:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, you told me that you were a children's baby food salesman.

• 39:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why your breath always smelled like baby food.

• 39:42Karen Kilgariff?

  A children's baby food salesman.

• 39:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Children's baby food. Well, I bet there is adult baby food.

• 39:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sure there is.

• 39:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Same when there's adult diapers.

• 39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yes. Put that away for now.

• 39:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, it's gone.

• 39:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So on January 5th, 2005, Jeffrey shows up at Lee's apartment with a bouquet of flowers. He is promptly arrested by police.

• 40:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Sad. And also, sadder still, it all happens on Lee's 40th birthday.

• 40:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Lee.

• 40:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Lee?

• 40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  She needs to listen to me. It's just gonna get better.

• 40:11Karen Kilgariff?

  This episode is dedicated to you, Lee. She's like, ladies, it's 20 years from now. I'm doing fine. Jeffrey Manchester is incarcerated in Raleigh, North Carolina. As far as we know, he is still in jail there to the day of this podcast recording.

• 40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, really? He's still, okay.

• 40:26Karen Kilgariff?

  He isn't set to be released until 2036, when he is 65 years old.

• 40:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 40:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Reporter Katie Dowd notes the irony here. Even though Jeffrey is California born and raised, this means he'll have, quote, accidentally spent over half his life in North Carolina.

• 40:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, it's a beautiful place, Asheville. Have you seen it? Charlotte? Gorgeous.

• 40:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, very gorgeous and very close to Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, where Dollywood is.

• 40:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. That's why he went there, probably.

• 40:53Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, I'm getting there, but first, some toys. Of course, he has been given the full care of treatment over the years because of the kind of wackiness of his crimes. And then I told you the story about him telling the director of that movie that Channing Tatum is in from last year, his name is Derek C. in France, and he says that you need to cast someone uglier. But he says, then he started talking to Channing, and he was like, you know, Channing and I have a lot in common. We both have a very high motor. We both played defensive end and were both extremely good looking. So maybe this guy

• 41:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 41:27Karen Kilgariff?

  contains every possible multitude

• 41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 41:29Karen Kilgariff?

  there can be. So many people, of course, point out the very important fact that Jeffrey's crimes were not victimless. Politeness aside, he traumatized innocent people, showing up with guns at their work when they are just trying to close or open.

• 41:44Georgia Hardstark?

  This podcast has actually taught me that, from comments we've gotten way in the past of like, don't, um, what's the word when you?

• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Idealize?

• 41:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Idealize this, even though nobody, you know, was hurt. That's a fucking lasting wound to be held up at gunpoint, so.

• 42:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, absolutely. I remember when we had like four guys shoplifted at the same time and ran out and pushed our security guard up against the wall as they ran out.

• 42:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 42:10Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's nothing directly threatening or violent about it at all. They just grabbed bags and ran, and it still was like Yeah. We were all for days, like freaked out. So, yes, introducing the idea that I could die over like Gap jeans.

• 42:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 42:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Insane.

• 42:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 42:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Especially at a toy store.

• 42:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Where everyone's having fun.

• 42:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Except the guy in the Jeffrey costume.

• 42:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 42:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't even think about that. Jeffrey the Roof Man has the same name as the giraffe from Toys R Us. Get into that costume. Okay.

• 42:41Georgia Hardstark?

  What if he had hidden in plain sight in that costume?

• 42:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Hi, and he's just pickpocketing.

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  But children, stop giving children wallets. Okay, so.

• 42:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen's platforms. I'm so sick of it.

• 42:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I say, we don't know.

• 42:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop, yeah.

• 42:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And we maybe can't know if Jeffrey has learned his lesson from any of this. It's been reported he's tried to break out of prison two more times since being rearrested in 2004, though.

• 43:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He attempted an escape in 2009 and again in 2017. So there may come a day when we have to give an update to the Roofman saga. But until that time, that's the story of the Roofman, Jeffrey Manchester.

• 43:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. This is part of the segment we should call, "We Don't Need Another Hero", where we just tell the story of some fucking dude who fucking does all these things.

• 43:29Karen Kilgariff?

  He doesn't have to be terrible and we don't have to love him.

• 43:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but Channing Tatum has to play him.

• 43:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But Channing Tatum has to play every dude we talk about from here, from here on out, including Paul Giamatti.

• 43:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's perfect.

• 43:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible.

• 43:43Georgia Hardstark?

  That was great.

• 43:45Karen Kilgariff?

  For your birthday.

• 43:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. It never crossed my mind to do that one. I, that's, yeah, wow, I had no idea.

• 43:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And I will say this, I did it without watching the Channing Tatum movie because sometimes then I'm like just retelling the movie.

• 43:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I gotta say, I made him stop playing it because of that whole, you're holding people up at gunpoint and we're making this guy this fucking hot, you know?

• 44:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He's hot and great.

• 44:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Hot and great and just down on his luck. And it's like, well, well, well. So I made him turn it off. I'm sure I'm so much fun to be married to.

• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, listen, there's other things to watch.

• 44:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 44:19Karen Kilgariff?

  He doesn't give a shit.

• 44:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He watched it alone. He doesn't care. He's like, fine. Yeah. That was great.

• 44:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 44:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Cozy season is nearly upon us.

• 44:29Georgia Hardstark?

  That means crisp weather and soft layers.

• 44:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Prepare accordingly with fall staples from Bombas.

• 44:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Bombas has your favorite footwear for fall, including new suede moccasins with cushy soles, shearling lining and water-resistant suede, plus soft slippers, slides and booties.

• 44:44Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a Bombas sock for pretty much any fall occasion, from warm merino wool blends to sweat-wicking sports socks and dressier options for weddings.

• 44:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And for every Bombas item purchased, they donated an essential clothing item to someone facing Housing and security with more than 200 million items donated so far. Okay, so when fall comes around, I have a pair of the Bombas booties pretty much in every room. So I can grab them when my feet inevitably become freezing, which they are constantly. And they're so comfy. You can wear them around the house. I wear them to bed and they just make everything feel a little cozier.

• 45:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to Bombas.com/MFM and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

• 45:24Georgia Hardstark?

  That's B O M B A S dot com slash MFM, code MFM at checkout.

• 45:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 45:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call.

• 45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 45:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 45:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 45:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 46:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 46:09Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 46:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 46:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 46:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services must be 18 years or older.

• 46:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 46:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S O L A C E health.com/murder.

• 46:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 46:43Karen Kilgariff?

  You know a favorite M word? Magnesium.

• 46:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 46:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt. It's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 46:59Georgia Hardstark?

  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can Help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.

• 47:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula.

• 47:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 47:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 47:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 47:36Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky?

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye.

• 47:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want to do one?

• 47:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll do one. I have a fun, special birthday one.

• 47:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay.

• 47:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's my birthday. I can do what I want to.

• 47:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Go, Shorty.

• 47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do this.

• 47:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. It's early 2016.

• 48:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry.

• 48:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Zip.

• 48:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm. I think he's out. It's early 2016.

• 48:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 48:10Georgia Hardstark?

  We're in New York City.

• 48:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Manhattan.

• 48:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, the main one?

• 48:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm. A Vanity Fair photo editor in her mid-20s named Rachel Williams is out at a small basement club on the Lower East Side. It's called Happy Ending.

• 48:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 48:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Casual, clever.

• 48:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:28Georgia Hardstark?

  She's with a group of young people. They're all kind of adjacent to the fashion industry, you know, friends that kind of go out after work with in New York City.

• 48:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Your coke friends.

• 48:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly, that you never speak to after.

• 48:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You get a good job.

• 48:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You said it all.

• 48:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. When a girl about her age materializes at their table and with her is the waitstaff bringing along bottle service. So an immediate, wow, who's she?

• 48:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 48:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Who's that girl? Rachel has seen this girl at distance before. They go to the same parties. They run in the same circles. She's seen her on Instagram. This girl, woman, speaks with a vague European accent. And Rachel gets the sense that she's some kind of heiress. But Rachel will soon find out she's not. And more than that, Rachel's taken on a wild ride along with several major financial institutions and New York luxury hotels. This is the story of scam artist Anna Delvey.

• 49:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I just tell you?

• 49:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Always.

• 49:22Karen Kilgariff?

  The reason I'm so excited about this is because I heard about that happening, but I've never read an article.

• 49:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You didn't watch the biopic?

• 49:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I tried to watch the beginning and whatever was going on. This has been my, the story of me in entertainment for the past five years. It has to turn my brain off entirely or I can't get involved.

• 49:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Did the accent bother you?

• 49:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I felt like I'd already missed the train. So it seemed like a thing that everyone already knew what the story was. And I was like, huh? And I hate that feeling. So then I just go, I'll revisit this later.

• 49:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's good.

• 49:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And that day is today.

• 49:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm gonna tell you everything.

• 49:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 49:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, the main sources for this story are a article in New York Magazine and Vanity Fair. I don't know why I want to do that.

• 50:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia loves these flowers.

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I do. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

• 50:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 50:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So I'm so glad you don't know about this.

• 50:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you mind if I have a hot flash really quick before you start this?

• 50:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, I had one first. Now it's your turn.

• 50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking Jesus.

• 50:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Keep it in, it's real.

• 50:26Georgia Hardstark?

  So shortly after that fateful night at happy ending, Rachel goes out to dinner with this chick, Anna, and a group of other people. They go to a steakhouse in the financial district called Harry's. It's real high end. And so in this biopic called Inventing Anna, Anna is played by Julia Garner from, what was that amazing show she was on that she was so good at?

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Ozark.

• 50:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yes. Ozark. She's such a terrific actress. The accent in it is annoying, but it's real. So she's not bad at it. She's accurately portraying this woman's accent.

• 50:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also I guess I'll say this. It wasn't about the acting for me. It was the idea that I had to go into a world with this person who, in real life, if I was around that person, I would immediately confront and insult and then

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You'd despise her.

• 51:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Have a problem with a scammer.

• 51:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And that's what's so hard to like wrap your head around these kinds of stories is you're like, you don't really feel bad for the victim. In it because you're like, how did you not know? So we'll get into that.

• 51:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Which we love to do. That's kind of, I think, most people who follow true crime. You're always like, oh, I'm the wise person.

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. That could never happen to me. But here's the thing, maybe you just don't know yet. The scammers are so good and you're so dumb that you haven't figured out what scammers are in your life.

• 51:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely. I'm sure.

• 51:41Georgia Hardstark?

  There's gotta be one.

• 51:42Karen Kilgariff?

  There's absolutely.

• 51:45Georgia Hardstark?

  This hasn't been recording the whole time.

• 51:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It just slowly but surely money is falling out of my purse for some reason.

• 51:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's all fake money.

• 51:52Karen Kilgariff?

  This hasn't been recording. The scam is that we've never recorded a podcast. It's you've somehow tricked me into all of this.

• 51:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 52:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, well, what are you gonna get out of that?

• 52:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, over oysters and espresso martinis.

• 52:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Your favorite.

• 52:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Rachel learns that Anna had first come to New York to intern for the French fashion magazine, Purple, after having worked in their Paris office. But she quit and now she's focusing on creating the Anna Delvey Foundation, which she describes as a, quote, "dynamic visual arts center dedicated to contemporary art," end quote. So she has these big dreams of opening this.

• 52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a young person who dreams of opening her own museum.

• 52:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Art gallery museum slash Soho House, like members only club for rich as fuck people.

• 52:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 52:35Georgia Hardstark?

  She often alludes to having significant family money, which would generally track for someone in their early twenties, who's an intern at a fashion magazine. It's not something that you just do for fun.

• 52:45Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't wait tables and then switch over to that.

• 52:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Yeah. But while the name, the Anna Delvey Foundation, suggests that she's trying to establish some sort of nonprofit, it actually is looking more like she's trying to start a social club. Over the course of that winter, 2016 to 2017, Anna and Rachel hang out a lot, sometimes in groups and sometimes 101. They get really close really fast, which is always, we know, a red flag. But that's what girls do in their twenties and thirties. Like you bond in forties and fifties. You like bond quickly.

• 53:14Karen Kilgariff?

  You, especially if you have like those similar interests, similar like I've seen you at other clubs. I think that that happens all the time.

• 53:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Or I'm alone in this big city and it's kind of scary and isn't this so exciting and cool?

• 53:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:26Georgia Hardstark?

  In Vanity Fair, Rachel says about Anna, quote, "Anna was a character. Her default setting was haughty, but she didn't take herself too seriously. She was quirky and erratic. She acted with the entitlement and impulsivity of a once spoiled, seldom disciplined child." So her personality fit this thing she was selling, that she was an heiress and came from money.

• 53:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So kind of like if you're just willing to act like an asshole, people will believe you are rich or used to be rich.

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Hundred percent.

• 53:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Rachel has seen Anna around for a while, but what she doesn't know is that other friends Anna has made in the past couple of years have quietly distanced themselves from her. So there's kind of like rumors going on. A year or two earlier, Anna had struck up a friendship with a UPenn student, socialite and art collector named Michael Su-Fu Wong. And Anna had suggested that they go together to the Venice Biennale. What the fuck is that? What is that? Biennale?

• 54:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you better learn to say it because it's in Venice.

• 54:25Georgia Hardstark?

  What is it?

• 54:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the biannual, it sounds like, something?

• 54:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's it.

• 54:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a festival?

• 54:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. But so she asked that. He booked the flights and hotel on his credit card because she had some minor issues with her bank. And so he did. They go on the trip and Michael notices that Anna pays for everything in cash. And then when they get home, it seems like Anna forgets to pay him back and kind of ghosts him a little on that. But Michael's family is actually extremely wealthy. And the amount in question is, quote, "only $3,000", which to Michael is not a lot of money. So he kind of just forgets about it.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Must be nice.

• 54:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He's like, she's slaky. I don't want to like chase her for three grand.

• 55:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all I wanted is to find a person like that in my twenties. I was always just like, where are the high rollers? That I'm like, I will be the personality member, sixth member at the table. I'll just bring the-

• 55:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll spend your money.

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll gesture it up.

• 55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll keep it cracking here for everybody.

• 55:18Georgia Hardstark?

  You can be weird and walk away in the middle of a conversation.

• 55:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't care.

• 55:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Because you're rich and you do that?

• 55:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Pay for me.

• 55:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's kind of what happens to Rachel. Anna is vague about her background, but she explains to Rachel that she's originally from Germany and she doesn't have a permanent residence in New York because she isn't able to stay long periods of time, so she stays at hotels, nice hotels.

• 55:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Because there's so many Biennale's she has to go to?

• 55:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 55:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 55:40Georgia Hardstark?

  In February 2017, Anna checks into a boutique luxury hotel in Soho called Eleven Howard, where you'd love to stay.

• 55:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I go there sometimes, seasonally.

• 55:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And what's super fancy about this hotel, Eleven Howard, is that it's celebrated an eye-wateringly expensive French restaurant on the grand floor called Le Cucoup.

• 56:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever been to Le Cucoup?

• 56:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 56:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But would you go?

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Did I get that right? I don't know, let's see what we would order.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Wouldn't you go?

• 56:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 56:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Can we look at their menu really quick?

• 56:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know why I didn't do this before, it's just basic research.

• 56:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I think everyone knows this, but Georgia is a foodie.

• 56:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:16Karen Kilgariff?

  She's obsessed with going to restaurants, she's obsessed with looking at the menu.

• 56:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I am. Okay, guess how, let's see, they'll probably have French onion soup, so let's guess how much it is.

• 56:23Karen Kilgariff?

  $29.

• 56:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 56:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not eye-wateringly expensive, but it is soup.

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It is for soup.

• 56:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Soup.

• 56:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, hold on, there are lots of tiny food, menus, lunch, dinner.

• 56:33Karen Kilgariff?

  $32.

• 56:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Blah, blah, blah, blah, I can't read any of this, it's all in French. Uh, hold on.

• 56:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I took French 1 and 2, so hand me the phone.

• 56:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I refuse. Oh, they're so fancy, they don't even have French onion soup.

• 56:45Karen Kilgariff?

  What? What do they have?

• 56:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's see, let me just see if I can find-

• 56:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Diamond soup?

• 56:49Georgia Hardstark?

  So the tartare is $98.

• 56:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Whoa, that's an appetizer?

• 56:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The asparagus, grilled asparagus, is $28.

• 56:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm, does it have salt and pepper on it?

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It has crab.

• 57:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, it does?

• 57:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 57:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And then let's just go here.

• 57:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, this is actually a bargain.

• 57:07Georgia Hardstark?

  They must have, I don't know what any of this is. Well, apologies.

• 57:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I just see it for one second?

• 57:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so French.

• 57:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Full-on French.

• 57:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Invite us, Le Cuckoo.

• 57:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, we're believers.

• 57:20Georgia Hardstark?

  We'll record from your restaurant.

• 57:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll edit out all those prices.

• 57:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They go there a lot, and guests of Howard, like Anna, can charge their meals to the room. So it's kind of a win-win for her.

• 57:32Karen Kilgariff?

  My dream life.

• 57:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So Anna quickly becomes known around the hotel for being a very generous tipper. Anytime anyone does anything for her, they're gonna get 100 bucks.

• 57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 57:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And she seems-

• 57:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's two tartars. No, it's not.

• 57:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It's one.

• 57:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just one.

• 57:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Whenever a package arrives for Anna, and it seems like she does a lot of online shopping, the staff fight over who gets to take it up to her room, because they're gonna get a fucking 100 bucks. And it does seem like she's a really good tipper and really generous with, like, the regular workers, not management.

• 58:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfect Kwanzi scheme.

• 58:01Georgia Hardstark?

  They love her, yeah.

• 58:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Anna quickly develops another intense friendship with the hotel's concierge, a 25-year-old filmmaker named Neff Atari Davis, who everyone calls Neff. And she's played by Alexis Floyd in the biopic. So Anna starts doing the same thing, taking Neff out to fancy dinners, sometimes one-on-one, sometimes in groups, always paying, being like, "I'm gonna pay for everything." And Anna sometimes seems to rally groups of investors and actual celebrities for dinner. Like, she does enough little things to seem legit to everyone.

• 58:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And they often go to Le Cuckoo for dinner.

• 58:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's their spot?

• 58:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And on one occasion, Neff is seated directly next to Macaulay Culkin. So she's like, "This woman has to be legit. This is a whole world I don't know." It's exciting. You have to think of it from terms of, like, if you were in your 20s again, you could barely pay rent, this woman comes along and starts taking you to fancy dinners, you know, paying for things, and it's just exciting.

• 58:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And it's like a more adult version of being a scenester.

• 59:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 59:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Because when you're younger, you do go to clubs and bars or whatever.

• 59:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But then, yeah, as you get older, if you have the money, there's other worlds available.

• 59:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 59:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, beautiful food.

• 59:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So, and then why would these women question her? Be like, "This isn't real," but like-

• 59:15Karen Kilgariff?

  They're just paying for that beef tartare?

• 59:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Sitting next to Macaulay. Macaulay's in on the scam. No, he's not. Just kidding.

• 59:22Karen Kilgariff?

  He was just sitting at the restaurant one time?

• 59:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. In the Vanity Fair article, it says, quote, "The world was charmed when she was around. The normal rules didn't seem to apply. Her lifestyle was full of convenience and its easy materialism was seductive." Man.

• 59:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and I do credit the kind of personalities that can actually keep that whole scam train moving forward.

• 59:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, the energy and the kind of, the real charisma it takes to do that is valid.

• 59:50Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, you're dazzling, really. One day, Anna asked Neff to come along with her for a session with a celebrity personal trainer and life coach, one and one, named Casey Duke, who's played by Laverne Cox.

• 1:00:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:00:02Georgia Hardstark?

  She's so great. At the end of the session, Anna buys a package of, you know, coach training sessions and pays $4,500 in cash. So, some money is there and they're seeing it. So, it's believable.

• 1:00:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, except for that no one pays.

• 1:00:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Anything in cash.

• 1:00:18Karen Kilgariff?

  For thousands and thousands of dollars.

• 1:00:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:00:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's like, was, so did it take a while for her to count out twenties? Or does she carry around thousand dollar bills?

• 1:00:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Or just like pays in beef tartare.

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  From her fanny. Two pounds? You want five pounds? That's her.

• 1:00:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Got my Birkin full of beef tartare.

• 1:00:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Full of raw meat to trade and barter at will.

• 1:00:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So, Neff sees Anna all the time on calls and taking meetings with finance types. She's fucking busy and, you know, she's a business lady. Anna has told Neff that she's fundraising to open that art-focused social club and she implies that she may be buying the property from the 11 Howard owner, a New York real estate mogul named Abby Rosen. And that's why she's staying there and like, it's, that's why it's kind of being comped and she knows the owner.

• 1:01:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Connections.

• 1:01:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I know the owner, is like what you say.

• 1:01:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 1:01:05Georgia Hardstark?

  But there are red flags. One night, Neff and Anna go out to dinner and Anna's credit card is declined. In fact, all of Anna's credit cards are declined. Have you ever had a credit card declined?

• 1:01:16Karen Kilgariff?

  This just happened to me.

• 1:01:17Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 1:01:18Karen Kilgariff?

  We went to.

• 1:01:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Smokehouse.

• 1:01:20Karen Kilgariff?

  We were gonna go to a party. So, Alison and I went to Jar first.

• 1:01:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:01:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's that beautiful steakhouse on Beverly.

• 1:01:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:27Karen Kilgariff?

  But I had just lost my wallet that day. So, I went into my junk drawer and I, there's like a divider in there and one of the sections is all credit cards.

• 1:01:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Old and new. But, but this fucking credit card thing, I just went in and grabbed four credit cards because I was like, one of these has to not be canceled. Or one of these has to not be, whatever.

• 1:01:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:01:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And so when it came time to pay the bill, I gave the first one and the guy came back, he's, "I'm really sorry." I go, "No, no, no, that's okay. Here, this one will work." And then he comes back and goes, "I'm really sorry, this was..." And then I go, "Okay, I swear to God, this one." And I gave him the third one. And then he walks the machine out and he goes, "Maybe there's something wrong with the machine." And then I had to tell him this story. I was like, "I'm so sorry."

• 1:02:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That sounds like bullshit.

• 1:02:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It sound... And also, as he's walking back out, Allison looks at me and goes, "We're going to prison."

• 1:02:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so funny.

• 1:02:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Imagine that was happening, right? And it's legit. And then you said, "Allison, can you just put it on your card and I'll get you back. By the morning, you'll have it in your account."

• 1:02:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:02:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And she knows you. Like, you guys are good friends. And so she'll do it.

• 1:02:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And the restaurant where she's talking about, and Delphi's bringing people to, that's probably too grand, right?

• 1:02:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Okay, so yes.

• 1:02:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a crazy bill.

• 1:02:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, wait about it.

• 1:02:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll tell you.

• 1:02:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Neff has to foot the bill, which comes to around $350. But Neff is a concierge at a boutique hotel in New York City where everything is a million dollars.

• 1:02:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:02:50Georgia Hardstark?

  She does not... And I remember this, like, that was half my rent. I did not... I went on a date once and he said, "Let's split the bill." He invited me, he ordered everything, he picked the restaurant. He definitely wanted to fuck me. And he said, "Let's split the bill." And I was overdrawn because of that.

• 1:03:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:03:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Because of the, like, $60 that I paid half of.

• 1:03:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And when this happens to you next time, this is what you do? You go, "Yeah, to... Oh, my God, hold on one second. Hey, hi, hi, hi yourself, right the fuck out of that restaurant."

• 1:03:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I always split the bill. And I am not married to this man. To this day.

• 1:03:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That'd be amazing. The reveal is...

• 1:03:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And that was Vince.

• 1:03:25Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how I met Vince.

• 1:03:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:03:27Karen Kilgariff?

  No, but especially in New York City, money goes so fast.

• 1:03:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:03:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And you have to be so tactical about eating out.

• 1:03:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That was probably cocktails, the $350. That wasn't even dinner.

• 1:03:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So much money.

• 1:03:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So we know where her head's at. It is a huge deal for her. It makes her panic. But the next day, Anna pays her back in triple.

• 1:03:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:03:45Georgia Hardstark?

  In cash.

• 1:03:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So... Everything's cool.

• 1:03:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:03:49Georgia Hardstark?

  But then NEF's managers tell her there's a

• 1:03:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That reminds me, I have to pay else.

• 1:03:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut the fuck up. Are you serious?

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta jump on that Venmo the second this recording's over. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 1:04:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call.

• 1:04:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 1:04:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 1:04:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 1:04:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 1:04:35Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 1:04:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 1:04:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 1:04:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 1:04:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice, or services must be 18 years or older.

• 1:04:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 1:05:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 1:05:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 1:05:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 1:05:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 1:05:24Georgia Hardstark?

  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.

• 1:05:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.

• 1:05:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 1:05:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 1:05:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 1:06:02Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky?

• 1:06:04Georgia Hardstark?

  For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 1:06:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:06:11Georgia Hardstark?

  There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.

• 1:06:15Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.

• 1:06:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.

• 1:06:25Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:06:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.

• 1:06:33Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:06:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.

• 1:06:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 1:06:50Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:06:51Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:06:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye. And then NEF's managers come forward. They say when Anna had first checked in, at this point, more than a month earlier. Can you imagine staying in a hotel in a month? That's bananas.

• 1:07:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Love it.

• 1:07:07Georgia Hardstark?

  She had never provided a working credit card. Instead, she had gotten the hotel to agree to a wire transfer in the amount of 30 grand. And they had extended this courtesy to her because she was supposedly a potential client of the hotel's owner. So a $30,000 wire transfer does really arrive from Citibank. But then Anna leaves New York to go to Omaha to go to Warren Buffett's annual investor summit.

• 1:07:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:07:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So there's just a bunch, oh my, just the douchebags that are circling with their fucking, what do they have, vapes and their?

• 1:07:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And their?

• 1:07:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Canapes.

• 1:07:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Fleece vests.

• 1:07:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Their beef tartare. It's like straight out of Succession, I'm sure.

• 1:07:46Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a whole basement in the parking structure where they're just passing illegal beef tartare back and forth.

• 1:07:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Snorting.

• 1:07:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I truly, I keep seeing it on TikTok where people are like, we went to this restaurant in Mount Washington.

• 1:08:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Come with me.

• 1:08:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Come with me. And beef tartare is always at the beginning of it. Like, suddenly everyone's cool with eating raw meat.

• 1:08:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 1:08:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Observation. It's your birthday, I can say anything I want. That's my gift on your birthday.

• 1:08:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. So she goes to, she goes to Omaha, the most beautiful place on the planet. I don't know what it's like. No, we've been.

• 1:08:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:08:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's actually really fun.

• 1:08:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's awesome.

• 1:08:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And while she's there, she fails repeatedly to provide a working credit card to the 11 Howard Hotel for the balance of her bill and reoccurring charges. And they put her stuff in storage and tell her that they're kicking her out.

• 1:08:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Because she had never put a credit card down.

• 1:08:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:08:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And never paid. When Anna returns-

• 1:08:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, can I ask a question?

• 1:08:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:43Karen Kilgariff?

  The wire transfer for $30,000-

• 1:08:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Didn't cover her total expenses. Because again, she's charging all those la cuckoo to her room.

• 1:08:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right, right, right.

• 1:08:50Georgia Hardstark?

  She's probably charging so much shit to her room, $30,000 for a month is not going to cover it. They're kicking her out, they put her stuff in storage. When Anna returns to New York, she makes all kinds of furious threats at the staff of the 11 Howard, like, how dare you? Do you know who I am? You know, my father is. She collects her things and drops them at the Mercer Hotel, another high-end hotel-

• 1:09:10Karen Kilgariff?

  My favorite.

• 1:09:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 1:09:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I swear to God. We used to stay there for work back in the day. And it is the greatest. It's so lovely. It's in Soho, right? And they dice their eggs instead of scrambling. They're minced, like, tiny, tiny, chopped up tiny.

• 1:09:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Like Coke. It's- Karen, I think that was Coke.

• 1:09:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God, I love Coke.

• 1:09:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You were doing Coke for breakfast.

• 1:09:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I just, it was the kind of place where it was the first job I ever had where I got to stay at a place like that.

• 1:09:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So I was, everywhere I looked, I was like-

• 1:09:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything.

• 1:09:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Memorize this. It's not coming back.

• 1:09:42Georgia Hardstark?

  This is how people live.

• 1:09:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:09:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's very charming.

• 1:09:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why I fell in love with staying in hotels and eating breakfast in hotels.

• 1:09:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I hear you. So she's moving to the Mercer next. She drops her stuff off and then embarks on a planned eight-day trip to Morocco in early May 2017.

• 1:09:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:09:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So on this trip to Morocco are Anna herself, Rachel, the friend, Casey, who's the trainer- Life Coach and also a friend of Rachel's who's a filmmaker who will be recording the entire trip. So this is Anna's idea because she's thinking about making a documentary about founding her social club and she wants to practice having a camera around all the time. So she's just like, I want to take all these people to Morocco. I'm footing the whole bill.

• 1:10:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, knowing the end, this is especially bold.

• 1:10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's a mental state of I'm so in this that it

• 1:10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That I'm believing myself.

• 1:10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that's what I think at some point that's what happens is she believes it herself. She thinks she's not hurting anyone in her mind. She clearly is, but I think she's just delulu a bit.

• 1:10:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, well, she seems like she's hopped up on like clout.

• 1:10:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It sounds like.

• 1:10:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Or ambition.

• 1:10:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe she thought she would eventually get to that anyways. So she's just like living on a borrowed dime.

• 1:11:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Anna had selected the legendary five star resort, La Mamounia, where villas run about seven grand a night. And she got like the fanciest place. Rachel had been very upfront that she could not afford this trip. And Anna had made it clear that she would be paying, but there's already been an issue with Anna's credit card. So Rachel had to put the flights before they even left on her own credit card. And Rachel makes 60 grand a year.

• 1:11:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Rachel girl now.

• 1:11:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Anna says she's going to reimburse her. Rachel has no reason not to believe her. Just like Neff, for months, she's been eating at La Cuckoo and working out with the celebrity trainer all on Anna's dime. She thinks she's good for it. Yeah. And you don't want to be the buzzkill, you know, like.

• 1:11:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And you don't want to cut off a potential friend connection. Everybody wants to be in the world of people at La Cuckoo.

• 1:11:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Long story short, two days into their trip to Morocco, two big security guards are waiting in the hotel lobby with the concierge for Anna. The concierge explains that a hotel staff member has already been fired because he didn't get a credit card upon booking for the hotel room. She

• 1:12:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Scammed him.

• 1:12:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Scammed him. She dazzled him. He agreed. The guys followed the group back to the villa while Anna makes phone calls, sends text messages like, I need to get ahold of my father. I need to get ahold of my. Fathers, you know, trustees of the bank of the company like I I'll get it. This is going to be fine, but ultimately they leave empty handed. The next morning, Casey, who's the trainer who had gotten sick in Morocco, was like, fuck this shit. And she goes home. The security guys come back and they refuse to leave the room. Anna finally turns to Rachel and says that she needs to put down a credit card just for the security. Hold the hotel wants to put on before Anna smooths things over with her bank. So I'm dealing with this, but just to get them off our back and get them out of our room.

• 1:12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Put down that, you know, hold that you always get when you go to a hotel room. And again, Rachel is being told this is just for the hold and that the 60 grand bill will not be charged to her room. The bill is 60 grand right now.

• 1:13:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So crazy.

• 1:13:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's this is what I made it two years in my 20s. Yeah, 60 grand. This is more than Rachel's annual salary as a photo editor at Vanity Fair. The two big guys also start urging her to like, put her card down. So finally she does it, knowing that she only has about $400 in her checking account.

• 1:13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  God, also, this is a time where in my life where they'd be like, they'd touch my credit card and be like, decline.

• 1:13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The idea that people even have the option to do this.

• 1:13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm so glad all my friends were broke as fuck. No one was expecting anything from anyone else.

• 1:13:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Taco Bell, everybody?

• 1:13:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:13:33Karen Kilgariff?

  They have steak tartare there too. Not on purpose.

• 1:13:38Georgia Hardstark?

  We love you Taco Bell. Uh, Rachel leaves Morocco a day before Anna and the filmmaker friend. And once she lands, she gets a text from Anna saying she will wire her 70 grand in the next day or so. So that hold wasn't true. The whole thing went through for 60 grand on her fucking credit card, which she doesn't have. And Anna's like, I'll give you 70 grand. Like, don't worry about this. Back in New York, Rachel texts Anna daily and can't get the money. She spends the next month in a pure panic texting Anna and getting deflections. Anna moves from hotel to hotel. Eventually, towards the end of the summer, she tells Rachel that she has a cashier's check for her, but neither the check or Anna materializes. And she's fucking freaking out. Rachel spends the summer digging around and dodging Anna's request to crash at her apartment.

• 1:14:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Anna's like now like- Bold. Yeah. At the same time, Anna is sometimes crashing with Casey, the trainer. And then she and Rachel try to have an intervention with Anna in early August. The day before, the New York Post had run a story about the so-called heiress, who has been running up hotel bills all over downtown. And even with this evidence, Anna keeps deflecting, saying the money is there, and she's making the same excuses. Here's a photo of Anna from the New York Post article.

• 1:14:52Georgia Hardstark?

  The next day, Rachel goes to the police precinct and the civil court, and then finally calls the New York Attorney General's office, saying she believes Anna is a con artist. And they call her right back, because they've already been investigating her. Oh, shit. When it all starts to unravel, this is the story that emerges. Basically, she goes to City National Bank, and a private investment company, and asks for a $22 million loan for her social club. She asks this other investment company for $35 million. And she tells both financial institutions that she can secure the loans with substantial family assets that are held in Swiss banks. City National turns her down, and Fortress says they will do it if she can give them a $100,000 deposit while they do their due diligence.

• 1:15:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And she does this because she somehow convinced City National Bank, who denied that $25 million loan, to lend her that money. Halfway through the process with this company, Anna says she's withdrawing, and she doesn't want to work with them anymore, and withdraws the remaining amount of money, about 55 grand. And so she puts that money into a Citibank account. That's where she wired the money to the 11 Howard. So she actually had that 30 grand. And uses the rest, she takes it all out in cash, and uses it to fund her lifestyle. It doesn't go very far, and she had also opened various other accounts with bad checks. So she'd deposit this big check and take out as much as she could before it cleared, or not cleared- Yeah. Before it bounced. Yeah. And that's what the money she was paying everything with. Anna, whose real name is Anna Sorekin,

• 1:16:20Georgia Hardstark?

  is arrested in October of 2017 outside of Passages Malibu. Oh, no. Which, as everyone knows, is a rehab facility in Malibu for rich people, right? Was she trying to go there? I think she was trying to go there. It seems like that's where she had been receiving treatment. And which is such a great escape to be like.

• 1:16:40Karen Kilgariff?

  What I'm saying is, is it the perfect cover?

• 1:16:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it? It is. Who I, we can't say what.

• 1:16:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We can't say.

• 1:16:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It's all alleged. We can't say what her deal was, but that's what happened.

• 1:16:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's extradited to New York.

• 1:16:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine you're in, you're in passages trying to get sober?

• 1:16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You're in group therapy, talking about how mean your dad was.

• 1:16:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Tearing your fingernails off as you chew them down. Wait a second, what's going on?

• 1:17:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet she also thought she'd meet some new marks there.

• 1:17:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, of course.

• 1:17:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 1:17:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's people at their most vulnerable telling secrets.

• 1:17:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So and so's daughter who's like on drugs and like they're famous and rich and can I come stay with you after? Like I need, we can be sober together.

• 1:17:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Brilliant. Let's do that. Let's make a movie about that. Let's stop it.

• 1:17:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's go see who we can meet at rehab.

• 1:17:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. At this point, information finally begins to trickle out about who Anna really is. She'd been actually born in Russia in 1991 and her family had moved to Germany. So the accent isn't fake.

• 1:17:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe she puts it on a little bit. Who knows? Her father has a heating and cooling business and it seems like her family does have some money, but certainly nowhere near the level that people believed. Anna starts college in London in 2011, drops out, moves to Berlin, works at a PR firm, then moves to Paris for the Purple magazine internship and then asks to work out of their New York office. And that's how she ends up in New York. In New York, Anna had stayed at some other hotels, crashed with new friends. And it seems like she was being somewhat supported by her parents, even though they're not wealthy, but they do enough to support their daughter while she builds a career. The problem is that living modestly had not been in Anna's plans. I think she just had this, like these grandiose ideas.

• 1:18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I feel like somewhere along the way, she spent time with a scammer herself. Because you wouldn't know to do.

• 1:18:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Manipulate people that way.

• 1:18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And take out loans and I'm going to take this money and put it over here and then bring it back over here.

• 1:18:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And then shamelessly taking money from people who don't have it is not. The thing, you know, like,

• 1:18:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:18:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's gross.

• 1:18:38Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, the idea of like, papering the staff, the low-level face-to-face people, so that you've got these kind of like, people

• 1:18:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Allies.

• 1:18:46Karen Kilgariff?

  unknowingly defending you and saying, no, I know her. I mean, that's very wily.

• 1:18:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Diabolical, even.

• 1:18:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Who did she, who did she learn this from?

• 1:18:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's a really good point. After a trip back home in Europe in 2016, is when she comes back and checks into the 11 Howard and sets up this elaborate scheme, this new one in motion. So Rachel, her friend from Vanity Fair, writes her first-person account of the story for Vanity Fair.

• 1:19:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Good job, girl.

• 1:19:11Georgia Hardstark?

  For her.

• 1:19:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Get yours.

• 1:19:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And then Jessica Pressler, remember her? She is a journalist. She's reported many big stories, including the one that became the basis for the movie Hustlers.

• 1:19:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:21Georgia Hardstark?

  You know her. She writes a big story for New York Magazine. That story's adapted into a Shonda Rhimes series. That's what the Inventing Anna series is. In it, Jessica herself is played by Anna Klimsky.

• 1:19:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is so fun. In 2019, Anna is sentenced to four to 12 years in prison. And here's a photo of her at her trial.

• 1:19:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Legendary. I, I love that picture.

• 1:19:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's me showing up for work, where it's like, Karen, we were supposed to be recording 15 minutes ago. And I'm like, can I just please put on some, some contour?

• 1:19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know what? I bet she, I bet she was fun in prison.

• 1:19:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck, yes.

• 1:19:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet she made so many fucking friends in prison.

• 1:20:02Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll all judge away, judge away. Here's the thing, that's a creative inventive mind that's got an engine behind it.

• 1:20:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Karen Kilgariff?

  There was always a girl like this. It's for evil. That these are the girls that are like, let's go down to the 7-Eleven. We've, we've all grown up with these people.

• 1:20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretend to have a seizure.

• 1:20:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:20:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And you put some shit in your pocket.

• 1:20:19Karen Kilgariff?

  You go steal the Snickers, it'll be great. Now you're in an alley giggling your ass off, being like, this is what life can be like.

• 1:20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Or even worse, hey, I stole some pills from my sick aunt.

• 1:20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do them.

• 1:20:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Fucking snort them. Which is so fun when that's what your twenties are for.

• 1:20:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like there's an exploratory date. Like, here's the thing.

• 1:20:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Excitement.

• 1:20:37Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a lot when you're a young woman growing up, especially in America, there's a lot that you're told to be afraid of.

• 1:20:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:20:43Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a person who's clearly fearless.

• 1:20:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And then also able to put on the character of, no, fuck you, I'm rich, when she's actually not truly that.

• 1:20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Karen Kilgariff?

  That's incredible.

• 1:20:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And I bet she can cry in command.

• 1:20:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, easily.

• 1:20:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Easy. Okay. So she's actually paroled. She goes into 2019 and she's actually been paroled since 2021. Rachel never gets all of her money back from Anna. Anna does PayPal her five grand, which Rachel finds so odd because she says, quote, "This gesture tugged at me. Knowing what I know," which is that she really didn't have the money. "Why would she give me anything at all? Surely she would have paid me the full amount if she could have," right? So I think Rachel's like me, where she's just like, I don't know, she's giving her the benefit of the doubt still.

• 1:21:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. She's trying to go, I didn't get fucked over. I didn't get scammed. She's actually a good person. It's, this whole thing is a misunderstanding.

• 1:21:36Georgia Hardstark?

  But why did she give her that money? You know?

• 1:21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's the thing that keeps a fucking channel open.

• 1:21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:21:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Good gesture, which means good faith. No, it fucking doesn't.

• 1:21:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's money. And it's like, what do you like? Do you like money? Here, I'll push this toward you. What do you like? Do you need to be loved? Oh, okay. Well, I won't stop staring at you. Like, the plays are the plays. It's just different material.

• 1:21:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Gaslighting is gaslighting.

• 1:21:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, American Express does forgive the rest of Rachel's debt.

• 1:22:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Phew, thank God.

• 1:22:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. In 2020-

• 1:22:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Once they saw the Netflix show. They're like, Shonda Rhimes. Okay, that's fine.

• 1:22:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And they probably tweeted about it. Okay, in 2024, Anna appears on Dancing with the Stars. Did you know that?

• 1:22:16Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:22:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Hold up.

• 1:22:18Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:22:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wearing a bedazzled ankle monitor. She got let out of prison, but she still has an ankle monitor.

• 1:22:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Let me see that picture again, please.

• 1:22:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I can show you the Dancing with the Stars picture with her ankle monitor on. Let's see it.

• 1:22:30Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:22:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Which so reminds me, this is Magic from the last season of Euphoria, wearing a neck brace that's bedazzled. It's just the most fucking iconic thing I've ever seen.

• 1:22:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet it's a reference, don't you think?

• 1:22:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, maybe.

• 1:22:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I don't know. Look how cute she is.

• 1:22:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, is she, yeah.

• 1:22:46Karen Kilgariff?

  No, she's best.

• 1:22:48Georgia Hardstark?

  No, she is. People get upset about the fact that there's a contestant with an ankle monitor.

• 1:22:54Karen Kilgariff?

  You shouldn't do that.

• 1:22:56Georgia Hardstark?

  She gets voted off the second week, so boo to those people. She recently demonstrated to her 1 million plus Instagram followers how she puts tights on under said ankle monitor.

• 1:23:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Still?

• 1:23:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, get ready with me. Yeah, she still wears it, and she does this like, so her Instagram now is glamorous, and she's fucking gorgeous. She really is really beautiful now.

• 1:23:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:23:19Georgia Hardstark?

  She could be played by...

• 1:23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  By Claire Danes.

• 1:23:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Claire Danes, Ariana Maddox, who else?

• 1:23:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's that?

• 1:23:26Georgia Hardstark?

  She's my girl. She's from Vanderpump Rules. So, look, she's fucking beautiful.

• 1:23:32Georgia Hardstark?

  She's an actress.

• 1:23:33Karen Kilgariff?

  You're casting a reality star to play.

• 1:23:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, she's an actress. We love her. She's just kind of like, she has, like, her whole Instagram, I was scrolling, it's this like tongue-in-cheek glamorous NYC lifestyle. It is cheeky, it is a little like winky of like, fuck yeah, I'm that girl. Like, the songs she plays are like scammy. Like, she knows what people want from her.

• 1:23:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:23:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's delivering it. She did fuck people over, for sure, so let's not forget there are victims, obviously.

• 1:24:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, let's not forget the feeling of like being in debt, where, yeah, that feeling of just like pushing debt upon other people who've said no 15 times.

• 1:24:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you're just fucked until you can prove in the courts that you didn't do it.

• 1:24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:24:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Crazy.

• 1:24:18Georgia Hardstark?

  According to her, she's writing a memoir and making a documentary chronicling her life. It was up to her. She wants Jennifer Lawrence to play her.

• 1:24:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe.

• 1:24:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And that is the story of Anna Delvey, the fake Soho heiress, who was punished more severely than any of the men who were in the Epstein files, including the pedophiles.

• 1:24:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, because God forbid a young woman be smart and tricky.

• 1:24:41Georgia Hardstark?

  She didn't smile enough. Send her to prison.

• 1:24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  She had a weird accent. We don't like her.

• 1:24:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Great job.

• 1:24:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:24:47Karen Kilgariff?

  What a great, comprehensive way to learn about her.

• 1:24:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a question you can never answer in scam stories, which is, like, how did they get away with that for so long?

• 1:24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:24:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And the answer is, like, you had to be there, I think.

• 1:24:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I think so. I definitely think I would have, I would have been swept up back then.

• 1:25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yes.

• 1:25:02Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:25:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Coucou.

• 1:25:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Coucou.

• 1:25:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Bonjour. Et le coucou.

• 1:25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, that was my birthday episode.

• 1:25:10Karen Kilgariff?

  How do you feel?

• 1:25:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like a birthday. I feel, nah, I feel good. I feel, you know, like we did it.

• 1:25:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we did.

• 1:25:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Join the fan cult if you want to see me take you through my modeling, my childhood modeling photos.

• 1:25:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia's barbers on days are going to be up for your eyeballs to grab.

• 1:25:27Georgia Hardstark?

  In the fan cult.

• 1:25:27Karen Kilgariff?

  In the fan cult video.

• 1:25:29Georgia Hardstark?

  MyFavoriteMurder.com. Thank you, guys, so much for listening. Do you have a scam story? We want to hear it.

• 1:25:34Karen Kilgariff?

  We, we love it. MyFavoriteMurder@gmail.

• 1:25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you ever get scammed? I'm sure there's listeners who got scammed, where, like, here's how it happened.

• 1:25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone's been scammed in some way.

• 1:25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Or they're the scammer.

• 1:25:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Big or little, yes. If you're the scammer and you have the guts, if you're Anna Delvey-level brave with your own scams.

• 1:25:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell us.

• 1:25:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Go, come and admit it.

• 1:25:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, we're about to do a batch of honking hurrahs, and it's presented by Hyundai.

• 1:26:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's get into it.

• 1:26:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it. This one starts off strong, and it's in all caps. It's from Kelly B., who wrote in on the fan cult and said, "I finished an entire Aquaphor lip balm without losing it."

• 1:26:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I've never finished a lip balm in my life.

• 1:26:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Never finished a lip balm or even the lipstick I love the most.

• 1:26:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I get down that far and it disappears.

• 1:26:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:26:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So Kelly B., congratulations and hurrah.

• 1:26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You're the first person in history who has ever finished a lip balm. This one is from Check It Before You Wreck It on Instagram.

• 1:26:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 1:26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  "While searching for something that was just for me, after raising my kids up to be self-sufficient, I ended up joining a roller derby league." Can you imagine?

• 1:26:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, the kids are out of the house.

• 1:26:47Georgia Hardstark?

  At the age of 39.

• 1:26:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yes.

• 1:26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I have found my people and a little bit of myself in the process. My dirty name is Shreddy Better.

• 1:26:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever been on a roller derby team?

• 1:27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I've fallen on roller skates before and I'm not, I'm still broken.

• 1:27:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I think the reason I thought you had been on a roller derby team was because of that picture you took during COVID with your helmet and your kneepads on.

• 1:27:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:27:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Cut to picture.

• 1:27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That was a one and done. I got so scared, I never did it again.

• 1:27:18Karen Kilgariff?

  This one is from Jennifer M. from the fan cult and it says, "I got laid off 227 days ago after over 122 applications, 108 of which never responded." This is what everyone is going through these days. "15 interviews, first, second, and third interviews, and more tiers than I'd like to specifically count. I finally got a wonderful job. I can't wait to start using my brain again."

• 1:27:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:27:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Congratulations, Jennifer M. Hooray for you.

• 1:27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That feeling of like needing a job and then finally getting one.

• 1:27:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Morrissey wrote about it and he was right. He said literally exactly those words.

• 1:27:54Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a reason, it's a Morrissey song.

• 1:27:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Legendary.

• 1:27:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, here's one from Evangeli. "I planned my bestie's medieval-themed bachelorette party and it went perfectly."

• 1:28:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, so no one drank too much meat and threw up a turkey leg?

• 1:28:09Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they did and that's why it went perfectly.

• 1:28:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that was the theme.

• 1:28:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I think more weird-themed bachelorette parties need to start trending.

• 1:28:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's pitch some now.

• 1:28:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, let's dolphin-themed?

• 1:28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  All clowns.

• 1:28:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Clown-themed?

• 1:28:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Axe-clowns.

• 1:28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Divorce-themed? Axe-clowns?

• 1:28:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Axe-clowns and the paperwork you go through to fill out to make a divorce happen. And then the final theme.

• 1:28:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Hot dog.

• 1:28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we've seen those ones before. This one's from Mira and then in parentheses it says, "Like Mira, but with a Boston accent." We're already getting directed in this email. The subject line of this one is "My Mom's Promotion Made History."

• 1:28:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:28:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It says, "Hi, I love the podcast, been listening for years. Love all that you do to support communities. Let's get into it. My hooray is that after working in the FDNY, the New York Fire Department, for years and studying her ass off, my mom, Michelle Fitzsimmons, was promoted to deputy chief. Not only is this a huge, personal victory for her because she literally had to study for months for the test and put in all the hours to be eligible, but she is the first woman to be promoted to deputy chief in the FDNY. With all the interviews she did for TV and newspapers, she just kept talking about how excited she was to show little girls that they can do and be anything they want.

• 1:29:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:24Karen Kilgariff?

  She loves her job, and being a first responder, she is the reason I always correct people when they say "fireman," it's "firefighter." Stay sexy and break the glass ceiling, Mira.

• 1:29:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, what a hero mom to grow up with.

• 1:29:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, that mom has to deal with living in the firehouse for three or four days of the week.

• 1:29:40Georgia Hardstark?

  She's brave just because of the smell.

• 1:29:41Karen Kilgariff?

  She's a wonderful, wonderful woman.

• 1:29:44Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, thank you to Hyundai for sponsoring these honking hurraes.

• 1:29:48Karen Kilgariff?

  We love doing them. We love hearing them. Please write them in.

• 1:29:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:29:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And stay sexy.

• 1:29:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:29:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:30:03Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:30:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 1:30:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lasevedo.

• 1:30:11Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:30:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:30:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:30:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:30:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:30:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

• 1:30:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the "Remind Me" buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.

• 1:30:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:30:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:30:44Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:30:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:30:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to budget beach bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:30:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye.

• 1:31:05Speaker 00

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• 1:31:33Speaker 04

  4imprint, for certain.

• 1:31:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You know a favorite M-word?

• 1:31:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 1:31:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 1:31:46Karen Kilgariff?

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 1:31:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:31:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 1:32:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 1:32:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.