524 - Get Your Blade Hands Ready

This week, Georgia covers the 2012 Costa Concordia disaster and Karen tells the story of one of America’s first female millionaires, beauty magnate Madam C. J. Walker. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 1:13Georgia Hardstark?

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.

• 1:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 1:32Speaker 04

  Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.

• 1:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

• 1:40Speaker 05

  Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit firefox.com.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello. And welcome. To My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. I can do puppetry. Oh, what's happening? Suddenly, we have a third host. It's Karen's hand in a puppet shape. It's my hand that doesn't approve. It does look... He does... If somebody is he. Yeah. His name is Egbert, and he looks a little disappointed. And he's a little bit disappointed in us. Yeah. Well, sorry. What does it mean that your own hand puppet is disappointed in you? It's not good. Psychologically. Little Catholic, little Jewish, little... Little woman, being a woman. Little woman. Yeah. How's it going? How do you feel right now? Okay, my face is a little numb still. I had some dental work.

• 3:12Georgia Hardstark?

  What'd you get? Well, I've been going to this adorable, like, family neighborhood dentist for years. I'm not gonna say what it is. And I love them, and I go regularly. I'm really good at getting my teeth cleaned, and I'm a good girl about it. And then I went to this place a couple of months ago, like, a month ago. This was a month ago, by my house. It's like, just closer and a little nicer. And he's like, "You have so many fucking issues that this little mom and pop dental place have no technology and didn't know about. So, you're so fucked." No. I get a third opinion, though. Why would they not? Because he's showing me photos of my fucking teeth, and there's, like, holes and cracks in them. Like, cracks in my teeth. And then you go back and check it's actually a florist, and you've been going

• 3:57Georgia Hardstark?

  to the completely wrong place. I've just been on acid every time. I was like, "That's so weird." That was a ketamine dream, Georgia. You haven't been to the dentist in 10 fucking years. Ketamine dream, like, you take ketamine, and you're like, "You know what I need to do? Go to the dentist." And I go to the dentist in my mind. I've been like, "This ketamine doesn't work." But like... But I love this dentist and his wife and his daughter. Then you're suddenly like, "Why is there a family at this dentist office?" Right, yeah. "Why is there a child working on my teeth? I don't think I trust her, but whatever." But whatever. If that's how you guys need to gentle... There's nothing wrong with me, so I guess something's wrong with me. It's covered, so I can... I'm so proud of myself, you know? I'm very sorry about this news, because you know that I know about dental issues. Yeah.

• 4:37Georgia Hardstark?

  But

• 4:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Tough.

• 4:38Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it sucks. And it feels so old. I feel old. It makes me feel old.

• 4:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Like suddenly, like, your teeth are just old now, and they're only gonna get older.

• 4:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And fall out.

• 4:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And fall out and crunchier and breakier and you grind your teeth. Like, it's only gonna get worse.

• 4:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's gonna get worse. And I think about that every time I bite my cheek while I'm eating, like a animal.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I do so often.

• 4:59Georgia Hardstark?

  The worst.

• 5:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Eat your own cheek.

• 5:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Did we tell everyone on the recording podcast about my mom not having a tooth?

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think we can.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 5:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a big Easter egg for the future.

• 5:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, you're right. Can we leave that in?

• 5:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I think so.

• 5:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably, right?

• 5:16Karen Kilgariff?

  They can't get us.

• 5:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Come at us.

• 5:19Karen Kilgariff?

  They can't get us from here.

• 5:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Come at us, big dental. We fucking don't give a shit. We'll say it. We'll say it all.

• 5:26Karen Kilgariff?

  But you know what's hard about, dentists remind me a lot of hairstylists, where if you choose to leave for your own personal reasons, and then you run into that person in real life. I ran into my old dentist, and I clearly, really hurt his feelings by bailing on him. Cause it was a recommendation. My friend went there, thought he was great.

• 5:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And you look amazing. Like, it's all like running into an ex and like having, like, blown up since you broke up with them.

• 5:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Check out these gigantic teeth I got.

• 5:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Choppers, bitch.

• 5:54Karen Kilgariff?

  You couldn't do it.

• 5:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god. But you know what? You're right about that, too, in that sometimes the hairdresser that you've been to for years just fucks up one time. And then, so like, you have to let, your dentist can't do that.

• 6:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 6:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not the same thing when your dentist does it.

• 6:07Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't even get one with dentistry. You shouldn't.

• 6:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You get a bad bang, and then you go to someone else.

• 6:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Every hairstylist I've stopped going to is purely because they're too far away, and I would end up being late enough that it's fucking their business up. And I'd be like, it's immoral for me to continue going to this place.

• 6:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Question.

• 6:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Thought.

• 6:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Idea.

• 6:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Ponder, are teeth the bangs of the mouth?

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Teeth are the bangs. I'm gonna, no, I'm not gonna question. Teeth are the bangs of the mouth.

• 6:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Teeth are the bangs of the mouth if you have the money to adjust your teeth as much as you want to.

• 6:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Oh, right. Well, they can be.

• 6:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna grow my front teeth out even longer.

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Show your face. You're blocking your beautiful face with all those teeth.

• 6:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You need to feature more of your cheeks using your big teeth.

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Am I high on dental drugs?

• 6:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And doesn't it work? Since this is podcasting?

• 7:02Georgia Hardstark?

  What if it's all been ketamine this whole time?

• 7:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And now, if you don't mind, I cross-pitch you a new podcast, which is on ketamine all the time. The new Georgia Hard Start Podcast.

• 7:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Great. It's just me and a guest fucking like passed out on a couch.

• 7:14Karen Kilgariff?

  In a K-hole. It's more of an animated show because you would just above your heads show what you're

• 7:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That'd be great.

• 7:20Karen Kilgariff?

  K-holing about.

• 7:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That'd be great. Okay.

• 7:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you ever been in a K-hole?

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, I've taken, I've taken therapeutic ketamine. I never took it at raves when I, yes, so yes.

• 7:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So you have?

• 7:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you know, the feeling of being away on ketamine.

• 7:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think, I think a K-hole is like a bad thing, right? Like where you can't get out. I've been in it and been there and knew I was gonna get out.

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And you got escorted out by a nice lady in a pantsuit.

• 7:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Therapeutic ketamine is, yeah. I, I, hit me up, everyone. I'm fucking, I'm a big fan.

• 7:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't hit her up. Leave her alone.

• 7:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you have to tune into my podcast. Everything is ketamine.

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  To see what the hit up is in reference to. I wouldn't know.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Should we get to work?

• 8:04Karen Kilgariff?

  This is our ketamine. We have a podcast network and it's called Exactly Right.

• 8:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're putting a ketamine podcast up on it.

• 8:11Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Get ready.

• 8:11Georgia Hardstark?

  We gotta do whatever we fucking want.

• 8:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Get ready.

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly Right Network. Here's some highlights. This week on Brief Recession, our newest, always-on, hilarious, smart, interesting, cool podcast.

• 8:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Important, timely.

• 8:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Michael and Melissa cover the latest chaos from Pete Hegseth's Department of Defense and the St. Patrick Day debauchery in New York.

• 8:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanna see that.

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  You've gotta see it. And Trump's attempt to remove immigration protections for 350,000 Haitians in the US. This is an important podcast.

• 8:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, here's the thing. It is two really compelling, fun people to listen to talk. Talking about very important, timely things of today.

• 8:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And from the point of view of a paralegal, of immigration lawyer.

• 8:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 8:55Karen Kilgariff?

  People who know what they're talking about.

• 8:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Who also happen to be like, people you want to hang out with and get drinks with so bad.

• 9:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I got a text from Michael Foot this morning that said, you do want to learn mahjong, right?

• 9:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? Yes.

• 9:06Karen Kilgariff?

  He's one of us, one of us, one of us.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the best.

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 9:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And over on Trust Me, Lolin and Megan are joined by Dan Olson of the YouTube channel Folding Ideas. In part one of their conversation, Dan breaks down crypto, NFTs, all this stuff you love, Georgia, and why they often start to look like belief systems more than financial markets.

• 9:25Georgia Hardstark?

  So interesting how everything is a cult.

• 9:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And on That's Messed Up, Kara and Lisa revisit the episode Hot House and the disturbing real-life murder of Kristen Kostas. Plus, they chat with this week's guest star, Aya Cash. She's from The Boys, and you're the worst.

• 9:40Karen Kilgariff?

  God, I love The Boys.

• 9:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 9:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's like, if you like superheroes, and you like soap operas, and you like crazy shit.

• 9:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 9:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Watch The Boys. Okay, over on Dear Movies, I love you, Millian Casey. Dive into Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi's controversial new version of the romance classic, Wuthering Heights.

• 9:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not going to see it ever, but I'm going to read all about it because I love, I love when people get mad at things.

• 10:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and people have such strong opinions about this one. I can't wait to see it, but I'm absolutely going to see it from my home.

• 10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And in March Corner, we're highlighting the Pearl Heart mug and decal. It's designed by murderino Sammy Rich, and it's from an episode where Pearl famously said, "I shall never submit to be tried under the law that neither I nor my sex had a voice in making." And we all loved that, so we fucking put it out there so you can bring it to work and be passive aggressive to your boss.

• 10:36Georgia Hardstark?

  In honor of Women's History Month, we're highlighting the design. Grab yours at ExactlyRightStore.com.

• 10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Bing.

• 10:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Boom.

• 10:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's you at the water cooler. I'm holding the mug up by my face, conspicuously drinking nothing out of it. Someone comes up and goes, what are you doing? Oh, it's interesting you should ask me. This is Pearl Heart. And you go right into your spiel.

• 10:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Do it.

• 10:55Karen Kilgariff?

  We should actually release mugs about everything we want people to know about. Where it's like, it's interesting you should ask.

• 10:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, the Go Fuck Yourself mug is my favorite.

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Finally, stay tuned after this episode because there will be a brand new installation of Honking Hoorays featuring the real life driving of Ms. Georgia Hart.

• 11:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I remember what happened when we were in the car and I think I scared you a little a couple of times.

• 11:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You are a Los Angeles native, clearly.

• 11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what I learned from driving with you. And I'm from the part of California that's long, open roads where nobody else drives.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what my thing is? If in the apocalypse, in the zombie apocalypse, you want to be in my car.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:34Georgia Hardstark?

  And the like, we gotta get the fuck out of here and everyone is running, like, I can get us out of here.

• 11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You are tank girl.

• 11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 11:42Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's just regular, not like 3 o'clock traffic and that's why people get so upset with you.

• 11:48Georgia Hardstark?

  This is actually all an ad for beta blockers, which I take now before I get in the car, before Vince drives me anywhere. You're 100% right. See, your body doesn't know the difference between 3 o'clock on a Tuesday and zombie apocalypse.

• 12:02Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 12:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Your body's probably fine. My body doesn't know.

• 12:05Karen Kilgariff?

  No, my body has no idea what's going on.

• 12:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just going like this all the time.

• 12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Literally anything that happens. And I'm just like, can I, we talk about that for one second?

• 12:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you know what my therapist said today? And then I'll stop talking all the time.

• 12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll see about that.

• 12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  My невинсис therapist said to me, I was talking about crying and how hard it is for me and shit. You just showed me your story.

• 12:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry.

• 12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't see it. And she, how I can't cry and it's really hard for me and I really actually want to. Did you know that tears contain the hormone cortisol?

• 12:31Karen Kilgariff?

  What? Roll the tape.

• 12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  You've said this.

• 12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. On this show to you.

• 12:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I wasn't listening for the last 10 years. Sorry. Oh, shit, sorry.

• 12:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, that's fine.

• 12:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's why you're so tired and feel good afterwards?

• 12:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 12:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So I have so much cortisol in my body because I have the, I'm like that cartoon where they have the like water up to their eyeballs.

• 12:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and it's so interesting because most women, especially judge themselves for crying. And now you're judging yourself for not crying.

• 13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 13:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it should be like, but you never judge yourself for not yawning or yawning.

• 13:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 13:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And that is really the truth of it because every time you've seen me cry and we've all heard me cry on this podcast, I didn't know it was coming. It's just that kind of thing. It's like, well, this has to get out right now.

• 13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I want that.

• 13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you can have it. It's just like you have to stop thinking about it and just let it happen.

• 13:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Karen Kilgariff?

  But the first time it might, you might want to be at home for it if more happens than just crying.

• 13:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what happened and both, and I were both like, we should talk about this because it was like, what's happening?

• 13:31Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hard.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  Done good.

• 13:33Karen Kilgariff?

  If you weren't allowed to have feelings, then it's hard to have feelings.

• 13:35Speaker 04

  Thank you. That's so true.

• 13:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You're welcome.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  What if like from now on, I just don't stop crying because you like told me I could do, gave me the permission. Sorry, these are.

• 13:43Karen Kilgariff?

  They're perfect. I mean, these are the clothes. It is weird to sit across from you now in my career, in my adult career, and look at you wearing the clothes that I watched people wear in high school.

• 13:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Your newest era of kind of mid eighties clothes. It's just like, uh oh, is it picture day? What did I forget? Like, that's what it brings up in me all the time.

• 14:04Speaker 04

  I want to look like Justine Bateman became your like first grade teacher. You know?

• 14:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's getting there.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.

• 14:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.

• 14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.

• 14:59Speaker 04

  It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.

• 15:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.

• 15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 15:22Speaker 04

  Hatch Sleep Clock.

• 15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.

• 15:27Speaker 04

  Goodbye.

• 15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER

• 16:13Karen Kilgariff?

  to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  Buying furniture is a lot of pressure. It has to look good, feel good, and hold up to everyday life.

• 16:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Take it from me, a bad couch can ruin your life.

• 16:25Speaker 04

  That's why Article focuses on stylish, high-quality pieces designed to last.

• 16:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price.

• 16:34Speaker 04

  They take great care in curating their collection, focusing on pieces that stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design, and lasting value.

• 16:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. Man, there was nothing I loved more than when I was broke and I could still buy furniture that I needed at Article. It wasn't cheap-looking. It's like I was investing in these pieces that were comparatively inexpensive, and I was finishing rooms. I was getting the kitchen table that was bringing the whole thing together. And it was such an incredible thing because I never got to do that before. I love that about Article.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 17:21Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit Article.com/murder, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 17:25Speaker 04

  That's Article.com/murder for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 17:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 17:32Speaker 04

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ Sunny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception, his mom. To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sunny, he knows something is off. As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger. Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Neveola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series Phony. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

• 18:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this is a story I am surprised you haven't covered because it's got a lot of Karen, you know, and the pinball machine, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Got a lot of those for you.

• 18:28Speaker 04

  And bells and buzzers and whistles.

• 18:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, it takes place in Italy.

• 18:31Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 18:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a disaster story. Oh, yep. Okay, it takes place in Italy. It's a disaster story. There are amazing survivor.

• 18:40Speaker 04

  Does it involve Mount Etna?

• 18:42Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  Pompeii?

• 18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Oh, if I did Pompeii.

• 18:46Speaker 04

  We do Pompeii as a crime.

• 18:48Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  It's not funny.

• 18:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We're getting here. Never funny. It's Friday the 13th in January of 2012, so not Pompeii.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 18:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're just off the western coast of Italy. Oh, God, so now I'm gonna have to say these names and places. Just north of Chivataveka. Chivataveka.

• 19:08Speaker 04

  Well, hold on, we've got Liana Scolat.

• 19:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Look, Liana Scolat, she in the booth.

• 19:13Speaker 04

  So let's hear the correct pronunciation if she, if she has it.

• 19:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Chivataveka.

• 19:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Chivataveka. Like, I wouldn't have gotten that. Thank you, Liana. Leave in all of these.

• 19:21Speaker 04

  How did you pronounce it?

• 19:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Chivata.

• 19:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It could also be Svecca Vecchia.

• 19:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, well, I'm not gonna ever say it again. The busy cruise port that serves Rome.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 19:33Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, Rome. We're on a luxurious cruise ship with about 4,200 people onboard, and what's about to happen is going to be one of the worst maritime disasters in recent history, which led to the tragic death Of 32 people. Tell them what you just did with your hands.

• 19:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I was turning both hands to the side to somehow non-verbally express to Georgia, is this that one about the big cruise ship that basically sinks?

• 19:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That is right. This is the story of the ill-fated final journey of the Costa Concordia.

• 20:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And the main sources for the story is a Vanity Fair article by Brian Burrow and Josephine McKenna, which is really in-depth. And then a two-episode Discovery special called Costa Concordia: Why She Sank. Vincent and I watched it this week. It was one of those ones where like, sometimes I'm like, hey, I have to watch this documentary for the show. Do you want me to wait for you or not? And if it's like, you know, horrible murder, he's like, go, why don't you go ahead?

• 20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  You go ahead.

• 20:28Georgia Hardstark?

  But this one, he was like, yeah, I'll watch that. So we watched it. It's good. It's not as complete as you'd want, but it's good. I'm surprised there isn't a new one that's like a bigger story about it. Because it's just, I didn't know anything about that. I didn't know people died.

• 20:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like I don't know anything about it either, except for the final visual, which was this gigantic cruise ship, like, in a bay, essentially, right?

• 20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It's basically a fucking enormous, like, luxury cruise ship on its fucking side, where it's not supposed to be.

• 20:59Karen Kilgariff?

  In the foreground, there's a lighthouse to give you perspective of how gigantic this ship is.

• 21:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I read that it was like, if you were next to a 17-story building, that's how tall it was.

• 21:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what gets me nauseous.

• 21:10Georgia Hardstark?

  How many stories? Yeah, okay.

• 21:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Too big, too big.

• 21:13Georgia Hardstark?

  The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. That's right. The Concordia belongs to the Italian cruise line Costa, so Costa Concordia, which is a subsidiary of Carnival Cruises, whose headquarters are in Miami. We were like, it was like, a lot of the succession in the beginning of the TV show Succession, when there was like, a whole cruise ship thing, was like, oh, like, someone high up owns this ship.

• 21:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 21:34Georgia Hardstark?

  The Concordia has been in circulation since 2005, when its construction was completed in Genoa, and the ship cost 400 million to build, which in today's money...

• 21:46Karen Kilgariff?

  600 million? 629 million? 582... 612 million?

• 21:56Georgia Hardstark?

  612 million.

• 22:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what I would do if I were ever on fucking wheel, or what's the one called? Price is Right. Oh, Price is Right. I would say a weird, because I can't do numbers, like. Yes. I'd say that in front of fucking. I would just, my mouth would say whatever my brain served up. Six twelve million. Six twelve million. Six six six, basically. Ooh. Yeah. Bad. Six hundred and sixty six million dollars. That's how much today it would cost. Shit. Inflation. Okay. And of course, the devil, so it costs your soul. That went away a long time ago. Oh, the devil? My soul. You should have told me. Okay, on its maiden voyage, the champagne bottle, speaking of superstitions and bad things, that had been smashed against this hull, had failed to break, which is considered a bad omen, but it's like, shut the fuck up. At the ti- no, sorry. Among boat people. Right, exactly.

• 22:45Georgia Hardstark?

  At the ti- which, what are you gonna do, like, oh, guess this one's out of commission? It's nothing. Turn the whole six hundred and sixty six million dollar project in because this bottle didn't break. Exactly. I'm sure they haven't broken before. I think what, what did damn it more than anything else, and they gotta stop doing this, is they called it unsinkable. You gotta stop fucking calling things unsinkable. It doesn't work. This is not a manifestation situation. Just do your best and do some, do some cruises. Yeah, it's great. Where's the humility? Truly. Because that's what they said about the fucking Titanic. That's right. Shut up. Like, you didn't learn your lesson? Okay, why am I mad at these people? At the time. It's not the same company. Right.

• 23:27Georgia Hardstark?

  At the time, it had been Italy's largest cruise ship and one of the largest cruise ships, period, ever. And the year since, cruise ships have only gotten bigger and bigger, which is bananas. Yeah. In 2012, when our story takes place, the ship is only seven years old, and there are still just a few ships with significantly higher passenger capacities than the Concordia. Today, some of the largest cruise ships have passenger capacities of seventy six hundred people and carry around ten thousand people total, including the crew. Hmm, that's a small town. That's a small town. On this night, so it's, it's nighttime, it's January, it's a little chilly. Most of the ship's passengers are just beginning their trip. They just boarded at Chitavica, Chitavica.

• 24:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Leanna, she's probably working.

• 24:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Chivatavecchia.

• 24:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Chivatavecchia. They boarded at Chivatavecchia, most of them. They're starting their week-long cruise around the Mediterranean. They stop at, Ally did this on purpose, they stop at Savonia, Marseille, Barcelona.

• 24:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Mallorca and Sardinia and Sicily.

• 24:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Those ones were great.

• 24:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That, yeah. So it's kind of like the send-off and it's really exciting and they're just getting going that evening. Among the ship's passengers on this particular voyage are a large contingent of hairdressers.

• 24:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 24:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, how fun would that be?

• 24:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing.

• 24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Hairdressers, oh, they're most fun people. They know where to go. They know what to order.

• 24:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They know how to do small talk, like the best of them.

• 24:53Georgia Hardstark?

  They have so much coke.

• 24:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No. This is a hairdresser episode. So the reason there are a bunch of hairdressers there are they're competing on an Italian reality TV show, which is shooting on the cruise. So there's just like a big amount of fucking-

• 25:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking throw to the clip. I want to see that show.

• 25:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no, it didn't go great.

• 25:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 25:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Then there are lots of vacationers, of course, mostly European and particularly Italian, but there are also about 100 Americans. The Concordia has 1,500 cabins, six restaurants, 13 bars, four swimming pools, a casino and a disco. So think of the resort we just went to in the Bahamas, Bahama, but on a fucking 17-story ship.

• 25:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd do it.

• 25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  In the middle of the ocean.

• 25:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yes. We could have been on a ship while we were there and not known it because it was just condensed. We never left.

• 25:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Karen Kilgariff?

  We were all walking around. Like, the one day I went and I got to get a massage at the spa.

• 25:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to find my way back.

• 25:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I know.

• 25:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Was wild, but it all was like the same.

• 25:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was like, this is so weird because I know this isn't that big, but I cannot find the front of this building.

• 25:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Anyway.

• 26:01Georgia Hardstark?

  But then also, hey, you're in the middle of the fucking ocean.

• 26:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Georgia Hardstark?

  That part I don't like.

• 26:05Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no. And, yeah, and that's, you learn about that by the ground becoming completely sideways, as we know.

• 26:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. And your parents are big cruise heads.

• 26:16Karen Kilgariff?

  My parents were the people in the late 50s, early 60s who were like, I don't have a career. I'm going to go work on the ships. So my mom-

• 26:25Georgia Hardstark?

  So cool.

• 26:25Karen Kilgariff?

  -got her nursing license and then- Went and worked on the ships and my dad was a purser because he was driving chicken delivery trucks.

• 26:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so cool. Like that, I would go on a, I would get a job on a cruise.

• 26:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Like in this documentary, they interview this woman who is a dancer in the like shows on the cruise.

• 26:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 26:43Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's like, what an amazing career. What an amazing time in your life. If you're in your twenties, thirties, forties and you're just like, I just, it's like being a flight attendant almost where you just like get to satisfy this need that you want to be places and to be around people. I mean, it just seems cool.

• 26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You can meet all different kinds of people. And, but here's the difference I would say for this is my dad was a purser and then later on, he moonlit while he was a fireman and worked at the purser's union. So to think about the fact that when my dad and mom worked there, they were unionized jobs.

• 27:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 27:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And they of course are not anymore. And that's the real problem with a lot of people these days where they're like, I work 49 hours in a row or whatever.

• 27:23Georgia Hardstark?

  The centerpiece of the ship is a nine-story atrium, um, you know, that looks like the Emerald City. Think, what's that hotel downtown?

• 27:30Karen Kilgariff?

  The Bonaventure?

• 27:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Bonaventure Hotel that's got like indoor elevators that like look down on this atrium. It's like that, but it's fucking emerald green. Like it's the Wizard of Oz.

• 27:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you see it?

• 27:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit. I don't think I can show you.

• 27:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Show me something green. What's that thing?

• 27:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a green, a green, here's something green.

• 27:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, an emergency sign.

• 27:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Don't have it. That's okay.

• 27:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No problem, no problem.

• 27:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop asking me.

• 27:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. There's muster station.

• 27:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's great. Oh, happy family. What is that teenage daughter who doesn't want to be there?

• 28:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 28:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Middle child's son who's just like.

• 28:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Who's actually really friendly and doing a lot of karaoke.

• 28:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 28:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Youngest daughter who has not gotten out of the pool for five days straight.

• 28:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God. Great a dream. Um, some people think it's a little tacky though, but it's, you know, got that old Vegas kind of. You know, it's a cruise ship.

• 28:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, no one's there to be chic in Fashion Week.

• 28:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 28:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not the idea.

• 28:27Georgia Hardstark?

  This isn't a...

• 28:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Viking cruises?

• 28:29Georgia Hardstark?

  This isn't a Viking cruise. River cruise. Hey Viking River Cruise.

• 28:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey Viking River Cruise, I've always wanted to go to Egypt.

• 28:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we please get on the river?

• 28:37Karen Kilgariff?

  We would like to see the Nile.

• 28:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, at the helm of the Concordia is a captain named Francesco Sciatino. And if you remember the story at all, you know that he's going to make a lot of mistakes tonight.

• 28:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's tough.

• 28:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Sciatino is 51 years old, very tan. He unbuttons his thing, you know.

• 28:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the rare pale Italian man who works on a boat.

• 29:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Somehow, he's been wearing 75 sunblock. And he's just real pale.

• 29:07Georgia Hardstark?

  He's very experienced, but he's known for being outgoing and exuberant. And like, it's kind of, there's like a showmanship to being a captain that you have to, for a ship this size. They come out the first night and everyone applauds you and they do a whole, you know, it's like a big deal.

• 29:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Georgia Hardstark?

  To be the captain of this ship. And almost, yeah, I can show you a photo of him that we have to just, we can't, I can't show you on the screen, but you can look at it on our Instagram of what he looks like. And I just think it's important to tell you.

• 29:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on.

• 29:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Like Richard Gere Italian style.

• 29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing.

• 29:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that Italian men automatically unbutton to the third button.

• 29:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And if the shirt, if they try to keep it at the second button, it just pops off and it goes straight to the third button.

• 29:53Georgia Hardstark?

  They don't make them.

• 29:54Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the captain of a ship and he looks like he just got up from a beach chair.

• 29:59Georgia Hardstark?

  His chest hair showing.

• 30:00Karen Kilgariff?

  What, did you need a drink or something? What's going on?

• 30:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, there were quite a few, like, attractive, oh, as played by George Clooney in this documentary.

• 30:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Georgia Hardstark?

  There's just like, full shit.

• 30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty wild.

• 30:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Those people.

• 30:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, all right, stop it.

• 30:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Get serious.

• 30:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so he's a well-regarded captain. Just north of Sia Vicchia is a small channel between, okay, so basically, they're going out into this channel that's, um, sticks out from the Tuscan coast. It goes between the coast and an island called Isola di Giglio. So just basically called Giglio is the island. G-I-G-L-I-O. Uh, it's a very small little island just off the coast and...

• 30:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all male sex workers that live there?

• 30:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Gigolo, yes.

• 30:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So there's a thing called a sail by salute where you'd fly by. Yeah, it's basically like to show off the boat to this small little community on the ocean. It's kind of a regular, non-sanctioned, but done thing in the captaining business, just to kind of give everyone a little what's up.

• 31:02Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 31:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's unclear whose idea this originally is, but the captain, Francesco Scatino, decided he's going to perform a sail by salute of the island of Giglio. It's kind of to show off the ships to the locals, you know, which I think they get a kick out of too, maybe.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  Maybe the first time.

• 31:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. It's like, shut up. They're, you know, oh my god.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  They're like, we're an island. We see ships all the time.

• 31:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, but this is the biggest fucking ship ever. So like, it's kind of a big deal. And the lights are all lit. It's evening.

• 31:32Speaker 04

  Home-built.

• 31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. When the ship is approaching the island to do this little drive-by wave, Scatino isn't personally at the controls at the moment until the ship gets within about two miles of the island. So he had been having dinner near the bridge with a beautiful blonde woman who is not his wife.

• 31:52Speaker 04

  Listen, sometimes junior captains are attractive women.

• 31:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, she's not his wife. She's not on the manifesto. Like, she's not even like, she's not supposed to be there. Bless her heart. She's a dancer. She's 26. He's 51.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  Like, she's not a passenger and she's not an employee.

• 32:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's his mistress that he brought on for this little part of the trip, it seems like. Yeah, so like, most people think it has no bearing on the story at all, and she kind of got tarnished because of it, when really it was just like, but also he just went to dinner. He was probably drinking too, you would imagine, right?

• 32:29Speaker 04

  Absolutely. And also, it's like, it's Italy. I don't think anyone's surprised by having a mistress.

• 32:34Georgia Hardstark?

  A mistress who drinks at dinner.

• 32:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's not be.

• 32:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, so I'm not going to say her name because she has... Okay, so.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  And don't say his name because he's just a man. I'd just start defending him.

• 32:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Francesco.

• 32:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I love him, okay.

• 32:51Georgia Hardstark?

  A retired captain from the Costa Line, whose name is Mario Palombo, lives on Giglio, and Scatino talks to him briefly on the phone while the ship is en route to perform this. Like, hey, we're gonna do it. And Scatino mentions his plan, and he wants to pass within less than a mile of the island. And this Costa Line captain, Captain Palombo, he points out that it's winter, there won't be a lot of people to see the ship anyways, it's not tourist season, like, why don't you, and it's rocky shoreline, it's not necessary, there's not much reward. How about you don't do that? Basically, he just said, say hi and stay away.

• 33:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, he knew it was a bad idea.

• 33:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Was it the dancer's home island? Like, this is where I'm from, and I'm gonna go by and show.

• 33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That would be cute. It's not. I think it was like, I don't understand. It's someone else's. It was not necessary at all, in any way. At that moment, when he's like, say hi and get away, the phone goes dead, and it sounds like Scatino was already about a half mile from the island, because that was likely the moment that they saw the rocks. The problem is that Scatino had consulted his radar and charts, but at this point, he's mostly navigating by sight, and there's a fucking rock near the island.

• 34:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Even I.

• 34:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Even I, not an Italian, know that.

• 34:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Who only go on luxurious river cruises.

• 34:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Know that.

• 34:13Georgia Hardstark?

  He's going about 15 knots, which we'd be considered very fast for navigating so close to the shore. He sees an outcropping of rocks and orders a turn to avoid them, and then misses a much closer, large rock. Basically, there's a scramble, and he yells at the wrong thing, and everyone on board who's driving don't get a clear message of what to do from the captain.

• 34:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 34:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And the rock slams into the port left side of the ship. So by the time, like, they see it, it's too late, and they slam into it.

• 34:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I was just gonna say, if the ship is a half a mile away, but it's this gigantic thing in the water, it's like, then you're there immediately.

• 34:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's 9:42 PM when this happens, and this being Italy means that many of the ship's passengers are at dinner at this moment, because they eat dinner late. Right? You know.

• 34:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  In the dining room, passengers feel a series of big thumps and immediately after the ship is at a tilt. Like, they all know something happened. There's no way to ignore it. Plates go flying and smashing to the ground.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So embarrassing. Remember when our table collapsed when we were in Hawaii and that? We didn't even do anything and it was like the most humiliating thing that happened to any of us.

• 35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so loud.

• 35:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh god, that was so embarrassing.

• 35:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It was such a quiet buffet breakfast.

• 35:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It was just like, they had just set up extra tables because they knew like there was a lot of buffet brunch people. And ours was just like a fucking like conference room table and someone kicked the thing that held everything together and it

• 35:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but just barely. It kind of just went, "Kuh, kuh."

• 35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it was not Lizzie's fault.

• 35:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I wasn't.

• 35:45Georgia Hardstark?

  She kicked it, but it was not her fault that she kicked something and everything collapsed.

• 35:49Karen Kilgariff?

  The tables couldn't handle everybody having more than one beverage, which to me is what it felt like.

• 35:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Plates go flying, the grand piano that's being played at the moment detaches from its safety tethers and rolls across the room. All over the ship, people are seriously injured and falls. One musician, the piano player in the documentary, says that he sees people bloodied and holding their own teeth in their hands.

• 36:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So it happened quickly?

• 36:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, exactly.

• 36:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Shit.

• 36:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And so there's, you know, differing levels of people getting hurt and it doesn't seem like anyone lost their life or anything yet, yet. Amelia Bland is a 21-year-old British student and she's on board visiting her boyfriend, who's one of the ship's engineers. But she has her own cabin and at the moment they are in the cabin watching a movie when they hear this huge and feel this huge hit. And it's so hard that the TV falls off the wall. So they got in the hallway and start climbing towards some of the higher decks when the ship loses power. So all the lights go out. Big fucking crash and the lights go out. The emergency lights come on and Claudio, Amelia's boyfriend, tells her to stay put in one of these main areas and he's gonna go see what's wrong.

• 36:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So the announcement starts playing saying the ship is experiencing an electrical problem. And it's really weird because it's 2012, so only a few people have video of this. Like nowadays, you'd get every fucking angle.

• 37:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 37:14Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 37:14Georgia Hardstark?

  But 2012, there's like just a few clips that they play over and over again, which is, I think, so interesting.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, because only a couple of people were kind of there and ready.

• 37:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and like had that capability on their phones. They says there's an electrical problem, everyone should remain calm, there's, and everything will be fine shortly. Just don't freak out. At one point, another announcement encourages guests to return to their cabins. And then right around this time, Amelia's boyfriend Claudio returns and she says he looks ashen and tells her that several of the ship's watertight compartments have flooded. So it's not a fucking electrical problem.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  No.

• 37:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Meanwhile, the ship's hotel director, a 56-year-old man named Mariko John Pedrone, is on the bridge. And you don't think about the fact that there's a captain on the ship, but there's also a hotel director because essentially you also need someone who knows how to run a hotel.

• 38:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:05Georgia Hardstark?

  He's confused as to why the captain hasn't declared a general emergency yet. He's like, let's get off this ship if we hit something immediately. The captain Scatino, he does contact Costa's operations center and tells them that the ship has had two watertight compartments flooded, but the actual number is between three and five by now. The whole time, he downplays and doesn't react fast enough. And really, it seems like that's what causes loss of life, in my opinion.

• 38:35Speaker 04

  That's tough. It's so embarrassing.

• 38:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 38:38Speaker 04

  He made a really embarrassing mistake.

• 38:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Immediately, like stupid mistakes.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  Stupid mistake, like why did you even do it? And he's probably showing off, maybe for the dancer, maybe just in general.

• 38:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 38:49Speaker 04

  Maybe for whoever's on that island.

• 38:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And I think the idea of like just deciding to evacuate all these people is a big decision that he doesn't want to make until he's sure about it.

• 39:01Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:01Georgia Hardstark?

  So he holds back and that costs life.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  Yes. Well, he's probably thinking, if we could never get that close.

• 39:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:09Speaker 04

  And I want to make sure this doesn't go up into a big, it doesn't turn into a bigger thing.

• 39:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, let's just see how bad it is before we start panicking.

• 39:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:17Speaker 04

  We've all been there.

• 39:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, he won't admit to what happens for a very long time.

• 39:21Speaker 04

  Same. Who, who does admit anything? Who among us admits fucking shit?

• 39:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I crashed a ship.

• 39:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Good luck.

• 39:31Karen Kilgariff?

  See, it's not that hard.

• 39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not my fault.

• 39:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I crashed a ship.

• 39:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not that hard.

• 39:34Georgia Hardstark?

  So, the ship can possibly stay afloat with two compartments flooded. You've seen this from Titanic where like the bottom thingies, but not with any more than that, and he does not call the Coast Guard. At least 20 minutes after impact, the Coast Guard first makes contact with the ship because a woman on the ship called her fucking mom from the ship and is like, "We hit something. Please call the Coast Guard and tell us like what's going on." And so, a police precinct elsewhere in Italy are the ones who take the call and tell them what happened, and they call the local police who contact the Coast Guard. So, when the Coast Guard's contacts Scatino right around 10:00 PM, they're like, "Hey, we got this call." He says that the ship is experiencing a blackout, and that's all that's going on right now. So, another

• 40:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Underplay.

• 40:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Another chance to

• 40:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, it's no big deal.

• 40:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a fucking blackout, yeah. He didn't say that it was a crash or that the ship is taking on water, and the Coast Guard asks if Scatino needs assistance, and he says no, and it's just unclear why he does that.

• 40:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it?

• 40:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it? We know men.

• 40:36Karen Kilgariff?

  There's really nothing like the feeling of making a dumb mistake, even over a bad mistake.

• 40:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 40:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Because if it was overtly a bad mistake, it would just be like, "Start the emergency services now."

• 40:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:47Karen Kilgariff?

  But he himself is in a world where he thinks he can fix his dumb mistake.

• 40:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's a dumb mistake that you're like, "That's not me. I would never do something like that." And so, I'm just gonna like pretend it's not happening.

• 40:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you were saying he was considered a good captain and like

• 41:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Good, but like a little bit into the limelight of it all. So, I think some people weren't surprised.

• 41:08Karen Kilgariff?

  You get into cruise ships for the limelight.

• 41:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You know.

• 41:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's my family business.

• 41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  A-list cruise ships. Scatino likely realizes or acknowledges shortly after this conversation that he's going to have to evacuate the ship, and it's safer to do so on land rather than in open water because now the ship, it hit the fucking rock and it's now veering out towards open water. So, he's freaking out about that, and he's like, "Okay." People don't know if he did it on purpose or not, but basically, he's able to beach The ship onto a bunch of other rocks and hit those rocks and remain there. So he's on like basically right next to the island.

• 41:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 41:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So he's closer. There's photos of like the ship that looks like on rocks and people like, oh, that's a huge rock. How did you not see it? It's not the rock he hit.

• 41:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 41:56Georgia Hardstark?

  So, yeah.

• 41:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That was the rock that was preventing him from being pulled out to sea.

• 41:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, like it held them there.

• 42:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 42:01Georgia Hardstark?

  While this is going on, the passengers have just been left in the dark and literally and figuratively. And there have been no announcements about the reality of the situation, although a lot of people clearly are freaking out, getting life jackets. The Coast Guard gets in contact another time, asking for an update. And this time, the Concordia's crew admit that the ship is taking on water. The Coast Guard starts sending boats and helicopters in the direction of Giglio, but they estimate that Scatino's unwillingness to admit the severity of the problem cost them about 45 minutes.

• 42:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's only about 10:40, a full hour after the impact, that Captain Scatino declares a general emergency. Most experts and even non-experts, who just know a thing or two about ships, agree that this should have been done immediately after impact.

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But it just ma- sorry, because I am an expert in Italian, man.

• 42:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 42:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It does, it makes me think of this driver we had one time when me and Adrian and Janet were in Italy. And he was driving us to Cinque Terre, which is like mountainous, like

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  literally like this.

• 43:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Scary.

• 43:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And he was driving us in this kind of like a minivan while texting.

• 43:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 43:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was a stick shift.

• 43:13Georgia Hardstark?

  He was loving scaring the shit out of you guys, I bet.

• 43:16Karen Kilgariff?

  We were, because we were sitting in our own individual rows

• 43:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 43:19Karen Kilgariff?

  in this thing, and I was literally staring out the window like, I've had a beautiful life. I'm very grateful for everything I've gotten to do. And when we all got out, Adrian goes, I just made peace with the God I know. And I was like, that's what I was doing. Because it was that fucking narrow and scary.

• 43:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So I-

• 43:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought he was hoping you guys would say something.

• 43:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. Like, please, sir, where he's like, I got it. But I do think that is culturally, and that's such a generalization, like, what do I know? That's one experience. But I do see that, or I can see that.

• 43:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's just like, I got it handled, is the thing that everybody, no matter the gender, wants to always be able to say.

• 43:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Men, mostly men. That makes sense. Okay, so on the island of Giglio, a hotel manager, who's also the island's deputy mayor, which is like, I fucking need to go there and live there immediately.

• 44:09Karen Kilgariff?

  For real.

• 44:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Named Mario Pellegrini, hears that there's a ship in trouble in the channel on the other side of the island. And so he's, he hops in his car and starts calling other members of the island's local council. They're like, something's going on. This ship that tried to wave at us is now like-

• 44:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Up on the rock.

• 44:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Up on us, yeah. As he makes his way around the mountain in the middle of the island, and it's, you know, it's night, of course, he gets a clear view into the harbor and sees the massive fucking cruise ship, like, beached on rocks off the shore.

• 44:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So big.

• 44:45Georgia Hardstark?

  And he was like, that's not what I was expecting. I mean, the ship's like the size of the island, essentially.

• 44:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Remember when I talked about the Titanic, I think, and I said that there were 500 life rafts instead of 50 or whatever, that it was just some, like, typo?

• 44:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, the life rafts will come into play as well, so, put those in your mind.

• 45:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't let it go.

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we go, moving on. And then the other thing that happened is when they run aground purposely, supposedly, on those rocks, they drop the anchors, so they'll stay there, and the crew improperly dropped the anchors, letting out way too much chain, and that's why it started to list to one side, because they just cut open the side, and so it did that. So, I think that, it seems to me, totally unprofessional, that, like, the crew didn't know what the fuck was going on either, because the captain wasn't telling them what to do, and what was happening, and everyone kind of panicked and made mistakes.

• 45:36Karen Kilgariff?

  We must communicate.

• 45:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 45:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's just, that's all there is to it.

• 45:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Trickle-down stupidity, like, that's just the thing. So, had they created the right amount of tension, they likely would have been able to keep the boat more upright, and the boat turning on its side is really where the problems arise. And so, and so what happens is that the starboard side of the ship starts tilting down at a severe angle, and very quickly, the lowest level of the lifeboats are submerged into the water. Rendering them unusable and at the same time, all of the lifeboats on the port side of the ship, the side that's up in the air are also extremely difficult to launch into the water because so the ship's on its side now, the boats are here. Normally, the boats would come, the lifeboats would come out and down, but if they're on its side, there's no coming out.

• 46:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:22Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And so people are fighting each other to get on these lifeboats. I mean, just, you see humanity and it's ugly.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  People are pushing and shoving to get each other out of the way, trying to get on the few lifeboats that are launching. And the crew members who are launching the lifeboats seem to be doing so without any guidance from the chain of command. People are just kind of doing their own thing.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  Free for all.

• 46:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Also, because this had been the first night of the voyage, the passengers had not yet had their mandatory safety training. Because I guess the next day, they're like, everyone has to sit down and fucking watch this video. It's like when you're on a plane and they do the video, the

• 46:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And you, nobody pays attention to it.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 47:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 47:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So they haven't done that yet.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  And there's a reason they do it first.

• 47:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 47:06Speaker 04

  I thought you were gonna say, no one had sat down and eaten dinner. And I was just like, that sucks.

• 47:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So everyone was hungry.

• 47:12Speaker 04

  Everyone's in a bad mood.

• 47:13Georgia Hardstark?

  They're hangry. So it's mayhem. This is actually the like orderly, better stage of the evacuation because the Concordia is so close to the port that the lifeboats are able to shuttle people back and forth. Like, it is very close. People start jumping into the water and swimming to the island.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  Do they make it?

• 47:31Georgia Hardstark?

  A lot of people make it. A lot of, it's like, there was the story of like, a 70-something year old woman who used to be a swimmer who made it. And it made me go like, you gotta get your ass in fucking shape.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, if I jumped out of a fucking, out of this right now and swam, would I make it? I don't think so. Honest, like, and I'm, I feel young.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I should be able to make it. So that's my, it's kind of has like invigorated me to be like, take care of yourself.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  To be an ocean swimmer? I would love it if you'd just start driving two hours every day so you can go swim under the Santa Monica Pier.

• 48:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's my thing. I have like the gear and everything.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  Punching sharks.

• 48:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's just asbestos in the water.

• 48:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So people are making it. And also, they have life jackets too, which is very helpful. But even still, the water is, it's January, the water's fucking freezing. It's like a 40 minutes tops that you have available in the water before hypothermia sets in.

• 48:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's not a great option. And if you're jumping from one of the higher levels, Over 17 stories high, like you can't-

• 48:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That thing was huge.

• 48:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, you can't jump off and swim unless you're close to the water and close to the island. And good swimmer and all these things.

• 48:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And the idea that people are just making independent decisions for themselves-

• 48:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 48:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Is a real sign of the chaos.

• 48:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:43Karen Kilgariff?

  A 70-year-old lady went over and was like, "You know what? Fuck this, I'm going."

• 48:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, most people would be like, "I'm gonna wait and see what the captain says because they're obviously gonna tell us what to do, and I don't want to be dramatic and jump into the water." And we never, women never want to be dramatic and overreact, but like-

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like, get your blade hands ready.

• 49:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. You know, I am a strong backstroke swimmer.

• 49:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So, that's just good.

• 49:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Just jump in backwards, you'll be fine.

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Crab walk out of there. So, the water's about 51 degrees Fahrenheit, and so hypothermia, that's how some of the people die.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 49:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And in fact, the rescuers do pull an unconscious Frenchman in his 60s from the water, and he becomes the first recorded person to be killed in the Costa Concordia disaster when they pull him out of the water.

• 49:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's really horrible because the idea of this, where, especially the way it looked on the news-

• 49:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Was just like, "Oh, it looked like someone just made a dumb mistake and like, wah-wah." It looked like the boat got a flat tire.

• 49:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 49:40Karen Kilgariff?

  The idea that people died because of that mistake is horrible.

• 49:44Georgia Hardstark?

  And he had given his wife his life jacket because she couldn't swim, and so she made it, and he was like, she was like, "Are you with me?" And he's like, "You're good, keep going." And then, I know, like, the stories of the fucking people who die are just heartbreaking, obviously. Okay, so the Coast Guard supervisor in charge of the rescue operation is a man named Gregorio De Falco, and he is fucking hot. He's George Clooney.

• 50:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Italian George Clooney. Is George Clooney Italian? He'd lived in Italy.

• 50:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to argue George Clooney's Irish.

• 50:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, you can have him.

• 50:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe he's half-half.

• 50:17Georgia Hardstark?

  You can have him.

• 50:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You can have him.

• 50:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So this guy, Gregorio DeFalco, can't get in touch with anyone on the ship's bridge during an emergency. This is where you would expect to find the captain. And if you remember the Titanic.

• 50:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I do.

• 50:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's where the captain stays until the very end. You go down with your ship.

• 50:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 50:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I don't even know anything about ships, rag. And I know you stay on.

• 50:40Karen Kilgariff?

  As the captain?

• 50:40Georgia Hardstark?

  As the captain.

• 50:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You're there till the bitter end.

• 50:42Georgia Hardstark?

  But DeFalco is only getting radio silence. So finally, at about 12:40 a.m., he gets a hold of Scatino by calling the captain's cellphone. So he's down on the bridge, he finally calls the cellphone. And this guy is a Coast Guard supervisor. So like, you gotta be badass. Like, you gotta be.

• 51:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like being in the, what's that one?

• 51:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Navy SEALs?

• 51:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I feel like you must be.

• 51:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It's Navy-ish, but there's something about the Coast Guard that's very like, we're the guys that go in when the emergency kicks off.

• 51:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. We're not going into war. We're going in to fucking help people.

• 51:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 51:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 51:17Karen Kilgariff?

  A war against bad swimming.

• 51:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And we're Italian. A war against bad swimming. And DeFalco is absolutely stunned when he gets a hold of Scatino that he is on a lifeboat already.

• 51:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's right. This guy got ripped apart.

• 51:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He did. We'll get into it.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 51:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Their conversation, which is recorded, becomes infamous. And I was like, we should play it and like, hear the whole thing. I'm like, it's an Italian. I forgot it's an Italian.

• 51:44Karen Kilgariff?

  What a dream.

• 51:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So basically, DeFalco just like tears Scatino apart. And Scatino is just like, oh, but, you know, like making excuses. He says he tripped and fell onto the lifeboat, and that's why he's on it. But there's like, clear video of him getting onto it. It's not pretty. It's a really, he did himself no favors. Like, he made a big fucking mistake, and he could have not righted it, but like, owned it and taken care of business and done what was right. It sounds like it was a big shameful event for Italians who are like, that's not what we do. This isn't who we are.

• 52:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 52:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And so they wanted to punish him for that.

• 52:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it makes a lot of sense. I, as the cultural attache to Italy for America. They are very, things are done a certain way. They're very traditional. They're very, you do not have cappuccino afternoon, no matter what.

• 52:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 52:37Karen Kilgariff?

  There are rules and regulations to just being part of that kind of like casual culture, in my opinion.

• 52:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all opinion. But, so that makes perfect sense that they're like, you have shamed this great nation.

• 52:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Like, you made a mistake and then you fucking double down.

• 52:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You can hear it and they'll do closed captioning for it and like, can understand. But he's just basically like, says, fuck, what the fuck are you doing at him? And like, he's just like, what, you know, this guy, DeFalco, is very aware of like, how bad this is.

• 53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's not on the ship?

• 53:08Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 53:09Karen Kilgariff?

  All that on top of, he's gone.

• 53:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So shortly after this conversation, he, he doesn't get off the ship like DeFalco orders him to do, because shortly after the call, he's seen on land in the Giglio Harbor among the thousands of stranded passengers who have escaped the ship. So people are flooding off and they see the captain on land when there's like hundreds of people still on the ship. The town's chief of police goes to speak with him and all Cattino will say is, quote, "Those cliffs weren't there, they were not on the maps," end quote. He's immediately blaming, yeah, the cliffs.

• 53:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That sounds boozy to me.

• 53:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And so, the police chief says, quote, "I saw someone who still hadn't realized what happened, someone who most likely didn't want to accept the reality of things," end quote.

• 53:52Karen Kilgariff?

  All denial.

• 53:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. By this point around 1 a.m., every working lifeboat has been launched and some are circling back and getting more, but around a thousand people are still on the ship, which is now essentially lying on its starboard side. So if you're still trapped in the ship, which many people are, the walls are now the floor and ceiling, you know what I mean? And the floors are now the walls and like, any long hallway is now like a well, because everything is fucking...

• 54:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's one big Lionel Richie video, in the worst way possible.

• 54:22Georgia Hardstark?

  The people left on the ship are congregated in several different areas because they still don't know what to do. No one has told them, go to this place to get rescued still. Right? Because the guy is gone. Who's supposed to fucking tell them?

• 54:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's still nighttime, emergency lights. Like it's not-

• 54:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's one in the morning. Some people are severely injured because of all these things happening and mostly just trying to stay upright on the ship that's flipped on its side. Eventually, a crew member finds a long rope ladder and it's dangled along the port side of the ship now facing up at the sky. They basically have to scale down the side of the ship into the water.

• 54:55Karen Kilgariff?

  To get like on to a boat, like to get rescued.

• 54:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so the ship's on its side and you can see there's like a night vision from the hell, because there's like helicopters and shit. You can see like just a line of like ants, it looks like, trailing down the side of this enormous ship. And there's children, you know, and elderly people.

• 55:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, and also it's like, so it's a rope ladder, but you have to have the physical strength.

• 55:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 55:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you, could you do it right now?

• 55:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I could do that. I could do that, but not the swim portion of the triathlon.

• 55:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Couldn't do both?

• 55:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 55:27Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, I would be afraid halfway down, when I'm like really at the dangliest part, my arms are like, we're not doing this anymore. You know what I mean?

• 55:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not like I do.

• 55:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Adrenaline. She's a real friend.

• 55:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Good one.

• 55:38Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 55:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's get her going more often.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Get that cortisol and adrenaline going every morning.

• 55:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah!

• 55:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's all we can do. People have to drop into the rescue boats. Maria Pellegrini, the Gilead Deputy Mayor, and a crew member named Simone Canessa, coordinate this rope ladder rescue and eventually go into the hallways to help get more people out. So even though the captain's doing absolutely nothing, there are people on board that work there and don't work there that are being heroes.

• 56:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing.

• 56:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. They find an aluminum ladder and then they use that to get people up and out of the hallways to the balcony so that they can get out of the ship as well on the rope ladder and climb down. But some people are still trapped in the less accessible areas awaiting rescuers. And the hotel director that I had told you about, who's like the captain of the hotel part of the adventure, named Manirico GiPadrone, goes back into the ship's hallway to try to get them, to try to save more people. And comfort them until rescuers come. Like, he's not abandoning his ship.

• 56:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Hotel.

• 56:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 56:39Georgia Hardstark?

  But the whole night, everyone has been saying that they saw his face. He was helping people get off the ship. He was helping get navigate the chaos and trying to get them to safety. He was in it. But on his way through the sideways corridor, he's knocking on doors, which are now the floor, trying to find people who may still be trapped. And then he accidentally steps on one of those doors. It opens up under him and he falls through the door into the room.

• 57:05Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 57:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Below him because it's now on the side. He hits a wall, splashes into the water, and he realizes he's trapped in the ship's sideways dining room. And he's broken his leg in the fall.

• 57:16Speaker 04

  Ah.

• 57:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's spilling with water, with freezing fucking water.

• 57:20Speaker 04

  Actively.

• 57:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The water's rising slowly. He hoists himself onto a top of a metal table and waits to be rescued with a broken leg.

• 57:27Speaker 04

  Broken leg.

• 57:29Georgia Hardstark?

  All over the ship, people are clamoring out alongside of the boat, which is now on the top, trying to get down to the rescuers. Helicopters are circling and pointing rescuers to where they can see people. It must be the weirdest thing to be trying to escape a boat, a ship, and there are people coming onto it from the island. At that point, I'd be like, okay, then I think we're gonna make it.

• 57:48Speaker 04

  Are people rappelling down from a helicopter?

• 57:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No, they're like riding the lifeboats back to the ship and climbing aboard to go look for survivors.

• 57:56Speaker 04

  Then it does come down to fitness.

• 57:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It does. As the sun rises, about 100 people are still unaccounted for. And rescuers are prowling this enormous boat. They're like breaking, you know, windows in cabins to see if anyone's in there and try to get people out. And they're looking for additional survivors. They find one couple still in their cabin. They had slept through the initial crash and then become trapped, which sounds like Vince, me and Vince, like for sure.

• 58:22Speaker 04

  Ask somebody what's going on.

• 58:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. You know that evening nap we like to take on a vacation? We'll be at dinner later.

• 58:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. But when you wake up, it's 9:30 and you're like, is it 9:30 in the morning?

• 58:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And everything feels bad. Down in the dining room, Manrico, the hotel captain, director, who had fallen. He can hear the rescuers, but he's so far down that he can't get their attention. He spent the entire night on that tabletop, drinking from a can of Coke that went floating by.

• 58:49Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 58:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Which happened in another one of your stories in the hometown recently.

• 58:54Speaker 04

  The jet ski, the dad that's trapped at sea?

• 58:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So gross. And then he, from a bottle that goes floating by of cognac, which Thank god. Thank you. And then he finds two pots to bang together to try to get the attention. Nice. And he starts to believe he's gonna die in that flooded dining room. Finally, he sees bubbles around him and fucking rescue divers surface from underneath him. Holy shit. It's been hours. Arrivederci, they say. No, no, no. Buongiorno. Buongiorno. Buonse- Buonasera.

• 59:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Leona's nodding.

• 59:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, great. He's saved, he's pulled out of the water and airlifted to a hospital, and he is the last survivor pulled off of the boat. The captain of the hotel. Yeah. Wow. And all 32 people die in the disaster. Fuck, that's so many. And the youngest victim, a five-year-old, dies in her father's arms. No. I know. And in a fall that had been similar to Manrico's, Diana and Williams are lottie, and they had been trying to reach lifeboats on the starboard side of the boat when they fell into a flooded area and drowned, which is like so sad. So sad. In the documentary, the divers talk about finding the daughter in the arms of the father and just how, like, you just can't move past that. No.

• 1:00:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? The event becomes an international outrage, and the ship lying on its side next to Giglio becomes a huge symbol for the utter outrageousness of this disaster, which we all saw. The ship settles even more into the water, and the 60-meter gash in its hull becomes visible. Very quickly, public opinion coalesces against Francesco Scatino. This is, in many ways, fair, I think, right? People are upset with him. But some people point out that the crew on the bridge had ultimately contacted Costa's headquarters after the crash, and they too had not raised alarms quickly enough. Which is like... It's everybody's fault? Yeah, but it's like, they're the underlings, kind of a thing. Yeah, they're the underlings, and they're not the ones who are like, let's drive by this island, it'll be so bad.

• 1:00:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And maybe they don't know how bad it is either, because they're not being told. Who knows? But some people think that Costa, the company, is happy to help throw Scatino under the bus to avoid any blame at the corporate level. So eventually, it does become a thing about, this is the one guy... That fucked up everything. Nobody else is responsible, kind of a thing.

• 1:01:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, the buck stops with this guy. If you want to sue anybody, you're going to sue this guy.

• 1:01:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Which is also like, well, did he have the training? Did he have, you know?

• 1:01:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's always going to go above you in some way.

• 1:01:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:01:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So much is made over the fact that Scatino's mistress was on board and not on any of the official manifests. But it ultimately doesn't seem like her presence made much of a material difference in the case. And there is still some debate about where the initial idea to do the sail by salute came from. But in court, Scatino's-

• 1:01:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Those two things conflict with each other, though.

• 1:01:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I think it's someone else who said to do the drive by.

• 1:01:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, really?

• 1:01:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's just being lumped all together and then details-

• 1:01:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And then like Italian tabloid magazines, like they fucking love this cute blonde girl dancer who was the mistress.

• 1:02:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 1:02:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And they should have nothing to do with it. So certainly the choice to do the salute and its deeply flawed execution were ultimately Scatino's responsibility. To this day, as cruise ships swell in size, the Costa Concordia is our only real example of a full evacuation at sea, albeit very close to land. And it didn't go particularly well. So it's a big media moment. The Concordia lies on its side next to Giglio for a full year and a half while a delicate salvage effort takes place. It takes that long to figure out how to right the ship and tow it away without causing an environmental catastrophe by spilling all the fuel onboard.

• 1:02:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So it just sits there. I mean, what a sight for those people on the island, right?

• 1:02:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. An island and an area that's 100% tourist.

• 1:02:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:02:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it's all for and about the tourism and the money you make with tourism.

• 1:02:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And so quiet otherwise. It's finally refloated and brought to Genoa in September of 2013. It's just like weird moment. The whole effort cost $799 million.

• 1:03:11Georgia Hardstark?

  To get it the fuck out of there, twice as much as the ship had cost to build in the first place.

• 1:03:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus.

• 1:03:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Scatino is ultimately charged with manslaughter, causing a shipwreck and abandoning the scene of an accident, and his case goes to trial in 2015. He's found guilty and is currently serving a 16-year sentence.

• 1:03:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:03:28Georgia Hardstark?

  He's the only person to serve a prison sentence for this. Manrico, the hotel director, who had tried all night to save people before falling into a flooded dining room, is among four other Costa employees who are also charged for not doing enough to prevent the disaster.

• 1:03:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't sit well.

• 1:03:48Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 1:03:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? He takes a plea bargain and does not serve time, and he says, quote, "My conscience is clear." And he's in this documentary, and he's like, "I did everything I could," and there were other, there were survivors, passengers, who were like, he was the person who saved me.

• 1:04:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Was doing something.

• 1:04:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Someday, he's going to be redeemed, it feels like, but until then, that is the story of the Costa Concordia disaster.

• 1:04:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. Truly, I always, I remember watching that on the news. I remember seeing it and having it be a thing that just kept coming back, because it was just the ship sitting there and all those...

• 1:04:25Georgia Hardstark?

  What a sight, yeah.

• 1:04:26Karen Kilgariff?

  But for one second, can we just talk about the fact that that captain got off the ship?

• 1:04:32Georgia Hardstark?

  He refused to get back on.

• 1:04:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Women and children last. And then stood around in the harbor watching. Like, to me, that's not telling me that that's a person that was, got off and was going to run away.

• 1:04:45Georgia Hardstark?

  But he also grabbed some, his bag, like, stuff, you know, like what you're just not supposed to do when you're abandoning ship, you know?

• 1:04:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, abandoned's not supposed to come into your vocabulary when you're the captain.

• 1:04:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:04:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. What a story.

• 1:04:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That was good.

• 1:05:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 1:05:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that was entertaining.

• 1:05:03Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:05:32Speaker 04

  There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.

• 1:05:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.

• 1:05:42Speaker 04

  And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.

• 1:05:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.

• 1:05:49Speaker 04

  It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.

• 1:05:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.

• 1:06:01Speaker 04

  Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 1:06:12Speaker 04

  Hatch Sleep Clock.

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.

• 1:06:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception: his mom.

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 1:06:37Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 1:06:44Speaker 04

  Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 1:06:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 1:06:55Speaker 04

  Watch the Hulu original series Phony.

• 1:06:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 1:07:02Speaker 04

  Goodbye.

• 1:07:03Speaker 05

  Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit firefox.com.

• 1:07:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.

• 1:07:37Speaker 04

  Pair your salty side with something sweet with the new Salted Caramel flavor from Kachava.

• 1:07:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Kachava is a whole body shake with plant-based protein, fiber, greens, and other nutrients to help fill nutritional gaps.

• 1:07:49Speaker 04

  Just two scoops provide complete nutrition your body craves with protein, fiber, greens, and so much more.

• 1:07:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Their new Salty Caramel flavor combines sweet caramel with a little salt, so you get that salty-sweet balance along with the nutrition Kachava is known for.

• 1:08:03Speaker 04

  When the day demands your salty side, fuel it with plant-based protein that actually tastes delicious.

• 1:08:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I really do love Kachava, and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.

• 1:08:19Speaker 04

  It's such an easy way to get everything you need, and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.

• 1:08:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So embrace your salty side.

• 1:08:25Speaker 04

  Go to kachava.com and use code MFM for 15% off your first order.

• 1:08:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Kachava. K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM. Goodbye. That's a good idea to go back over things that we thought were one-way because of the way the news presented them in the 2000s or before.

• 1:08:43Speaker 04

  Always.

• 1:08:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And then the real story is this.

• 1:08:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. Are you doing that?

• 1:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:08:48Speaker 04

  Right now?

• 1:08:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't, don't take it, it's mine. No. Actually, today I'm going to tell you, because it is just a quick reminder still Women's History Month, I'm going to celebrate it by telling you about this amazing woman who built an empire from almost nothing. In an era when both her race and her gender made her success, especially to the level that she got to, a near impossibility, but through sheer grit, community building, and an idea for a hair product that came to her in a dream, she turned a door-to-door beauty company into a national powerhouse. God. This is the story of the trailblazing black businesswoman who became one of America's first self-made female millionaires, Madam C.J. Walker. Oh, my God.

• 1:09:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know this. You haven't heard of her? I don't think so. Okay. The main source for this story is the research and the writing of Aleleya Bundles, who is Madam C.J. Walker's great-great-granddaughter. Wow. So she basically wrote her family story, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So Madam C.J. Walker's birth name is Sarah Breedlove, so that's how she starts this story. And it does start in December of 1867, two years after the end of the Civil War. Sarah Breedlove is born on the same cotton plantation in Delta, Louisiana, that her parents, Owen and Minerva, have been enslaved on from a few years earlier.

• 1:10:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So this is early post-emancipation, and although Owen and Minerva technically are free, they work the exact same fields now as sharecroppers. Right. And so if you're not familiar with the reality of sharecropping, it was a physically brutal and deeply exploitative system explicitly designed to keep black families trapped in debt and financially dependent on their white landlords. Right. So they could make a little bit of money, but it was not like the normal free trade for being a regular farmer. So Sarah is one of six children, and when she is just seven years old, both of her parents die. Oh, my God. Many historians believe it's from an illness like yellow fever or cholera, but

• 1:10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  officially, their causes of death are unclear, probably unregistered. So the now orphan Sarah moves in with her older sister, Luvinia, but then Luvinia marries an abusive man, and Sarah becomes desperate to get away from him and get out of that home. So when she's just 14 years old, she marries a sharecropper named Moses McWilliams. And when she's 17, she gives birth to their first child, their daughter, named Lilia, who will later go by Alelela, which is the family name that Alelela Bundles, I think, inherited. But then, two years after that, Moses, her husband Moses, dies. So now, at just 21 years old, Sarah is left to support herself and her daughter all alone.

• 1:11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So they move to St. Louis, Missouri, where four of Sarah's brothers live, all of them working as barbers. She builds real community in St. Louis. She becomes deeply involved at her local African Methodist Episcopal Church. And of course, she has to work hard to make ends meet. Between church functions, Sarah works exhausting shifts as a laundress that regularly stretch late into the night. But she still only takes home around $2 a week, and that would be how much in today's money? $25. $75. Okay. Still not great. No. She is stretched thin in every way, but she always looks really nice and put together

• 1:12:21Karen Kilgariff?

  because she believes that as a laundress, if she looks amazing, wears beautiful tailored clothes, that will attract more clients. She'll be her own example of how she can make you look good. Yeah. The way she looks good. Beyond her work, she sees how her outward appearance affects the way people treat her as a Black woman. So it's that idea where you can't be casual and you can't be comfortable, you have to be proving yourself all the time. But while Sarah can always ensure that her clothes are crisp and clean, what she can't always control is her hair. So now she's in her 30s, she's been struggling with scalp irritation and hair loss for years, and she's consulted her barber brothers and tried about every product on the market, most manufactured by white-run companies. Nothing is really helping.

• 1:13:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Sarah's not alone at this time, as her daughter Alelela Bundles will later note, quote, "During the early 1900s, when most Americans lacked indoor plumbing and electricity, bathing was a luxury. As a result, Sarah and many other women were going bald because they washed their hair so infrequently, leaving it vulnerable to environmental hazards such as pollution, bacteria, and lice," end quote. So that's that thing where my grandmother, a similar version, but it's like she would get her hair done at the salon. Shampoo set once a week. Once a week, at the most. So it'd be like you had to preserve this. Totally. Hairdo. And then for Black women, it's Even more so, it's like you can't get someone to get it done correctly.

• 1:13:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:13:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Not burn your scalp off.

• 1:13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:13:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Like all those things.

• 1:13:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Products aren't there, yeah.

• 1:13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so you're just trying to preserve what you have most of the time. Then Sarah meets someone new, and it's her second husband. His name is John Davis. Their relationship is described as, quote, troubled, and they also end up divorcing. So Sarah finds herself single again. She's 35 with a child, and she is totally unsure as to what her future will hold. She'll later say, quote, "I was at my tubs one morning with a heavy wash before me. As I bent over the washboard and looked at my arms buried in soap suds, I said to myself, what are you going to do when you grow old and your back gets stiff? Who's going to take care of your little girl?" So Sarah has been an amazing mother to her child.

• 1:14:37Karen Kilgariff?

  By 1905, Aleleha has graduated high school. She now goes to Knoxville College in Tennessee. And once that happens, Sarah realizes her daughter is an independent young woman and college student, so she now decides to go to Denver so she can be closer to a family member who's going through tough times. At this point, when she arrives in Denver, she has $1.50 to her name.

• 1:15:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's how much in today's money.

• 1:15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  90.

• 1:15:07Karen Kilgariff?

  55.

• 1:15:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, yeah, yeah. No, you're right. That makes more sense.

• 1:15:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Still, a frightening low number to travel across the country with.

• 1:15:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:18Karen Kilgariff?

  By the end of the next year, 1906, Sarah will have married again. This time, her new husband is Charles Joseph Walker, and he's in ad sales for a black newspaper. They actually met back in St. Louis and started falling in love back there. So the relationship starts back there, and she has to move to Colorado. And when she does that, she takes on domestic work, like cooking in white households, and on the side, she continues her work as a sales rep for a beauty company that she also had started back in St. Louis. The company is owned by a businesswoman named Annie Malone.

• 1:15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Annie Malone is also black and she's one of the first women in America to build a national cosmetics empire. Her company is called Poro and it sells various beauty and hair care products based on what she calls, quote, "the Poro system." It's geared at treating black women's scalps and strengthening their hair, which is something, of course, Sarah is very interested in. Annie Malone has amassed a huge sales network that employs thousands of girls and women across the US, including Sarah, at a time when black women's job options were basically limited to domestic labor and sharecropping. Wow. So it's almost like, these are products we need desperately. Yeah. And all you have to do is get your little kit and go out into the world and you can sell them. So brilliant.

• 1:16:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Malone has also launched a successful cosmetic school in St. Louis that doubles as a meeting place for black organizations who have been barred from meeting at other public venues. So you can kind of see the career of Annie Malone really is starting to provide a blueprint for Sarah and her story and how it turns out. Because Sarah uses Poro products and she sells Poro products, but she still seeks advice from pharmacists and other people familiar with the medicinal ingredients of effective hair products. And so she starts tinkering with her own hair care formulas, using herself as a guinea pig. She develops three products that she thinks are particularly effective.

• 1:17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Her vegetable shampoo, which has ingredients like honey, tea-free oil, and sage in it. Amazing. Right? Meant to help with dandruff and scalp irritation. Then there's a product called Glossine, I'm assuming it's pronounced Glossine, which is a hair oil that's intended for both men and women to help soften hair and make it more shiny. Then there's a famous product called Wonderful Hair Grower. The name basically says it all, and it has ingredients like beeswax, petroleum jelly, and coconut oil. Sarah claims that her hair grower formula came to her from the divine. She says, quote, "God answered my prayer for one night I had a dream and in that dream a big black man appeared to me and told me what to mix up for my hair.

• 1:18:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Some of the remedy was grown in Africa, but I sent for it, mixed it, put it on my scalp, and in a few weeks, my hair was coming in faster than it had ever fallen out." Wow. "I tried it on my friends, it helped them, I made up my mind I would begin to sell it," end quote. Wow. So this is how she does it. Here's a recipe. Yes, exactly. So keeping in mind that, of course, starting a business is a Herculean task for Black Americans in this era, PBS points out, quote, "Along the indelible color line that court cases like Plessy versus Ferguson drew, Black people in the turn of the century America were excluded from most trade unions and denied bank capital, resulting in trapped

• 1:18:44Karen Kilgariff?

  lives as sharecroppers or menial, low-wage earners," end quote. But because the white establishment doesn't see Black beauty brands as competition with white-owned businesses, entrepreneurs like Sarah and Annie Malone, they have more opportunity because they're going into an area that those people don't care about. Right, totally. Or even understand. Yeah. Also, these products have fairly low startup costs. So Sarah Breedlove leaves the Poro Company. She invests in her own ingredients, her own jars, and then she starts selling her own formulas herself, door to door. Wow. And it's around this time that she takes her husband's last name, so she starts going by Madame C.J. Walker, and that's what she names her new business.

• 1:19:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And it not only gives her this air of French sophistication, it's also an act of resistance because in this era, white Americans tend to dismissively refer to Black women either by diminutives like Auntie or Sally, or just by their first name. White women might be called Miss or Misses, so basically, Sarah putting Madame C.J. Walker into her name demands respect. Yeah, sugar in the system. Yeah, right? So I'll be calling her Madame C.J. Walker from here on out. So taking a page from Annie Malone's Poro Company, Madame C.J. Walker rolls out an entire hair care system for Black women. In addition to those first three products that I already told you about, her line also includes lotions, pomades, and combs.

• 1:20:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And it operates on the ethos, the black women should feel pride in themselves and in their appearances. The tins all feature an image of Madam C J Walker herself. And her dark skin tone is a strong contrast to every other beauty product on the market that uses white or white passing women on their labels. Yeah, you have a photo? The original can. Oh, wow. So she's like, Madam C J Walker, do you, do you need this for your hair? Here's my hair. Yeah. Here's how gorgeous my face is. Yeah. Like, how powerful would that be to just one day find that at the store? Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah. Oh, my god. So good. So before long, the Madam C J Walker brand is earning around $10 a week, which is worth around, do you want to do it again?

• 1:20:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't remember, like, 70. $360. So she's making Wow. about 400 bucks a week in today's money. Holy shit. And more cash always seems to be coming in. So she hits the road. She spends more than a year and a half traveling across the country to black communities, particularly in the South. And she's demonstrating her products in churches and at community gatherings. And after knocking on countless doors. Back home, she uses her husband's expertise in advertising. And she begins posting ads in black newspapers. Right, so smart. Right?

• 1:21:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It said that her consistent ad dollars became the lifeblood of some of these black publications over the years. Wow. So it's so smart. It's bring it to your community. Keep the money in your community, like, this is their product. Yeah. And then the white man isn't watching, you can make some Yeah. a nice living for yourself. Yeah, amazing. By 1908, Madam C J Walker has become so successful, she opens her own cosmetic school. She names it Lilia College after her daughter. And her daughter will go on to manage that school when she grows up. Madam C J Walker trains her beauty school students to become, quote, hair culturalists, so that they can share. God, she would love TikTok today. She would fucking destroy on TikTok today.

• 1:22:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So that they can share her hair care methods throughout the country. So basically, she teaches all of the women who are, become her salespeople. It's one step further in that of like, you're not just salespeople. Yeah. You're hair culturalists. Yeah. You're gonna help them get their hair back. I love it. Within a few years of that, Madam Walker opens her own factory, complete with a second cosmetic school and a beauty salon inside it. Damn. So this is going. It's a time of incredible growth for Madam CJ Walker and her business. Sadly, not for her personal life. She ends up divorcing her third husband, Charles Joseph Walker, over, quote, "business differences." What she does is she keeps his last name, though, because she's not changing that for this.

• 1:23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Even though she's become an overwhelming success in business, in just a couple of years, Madam CJ Walker is not getting the recognition she deserves from the male-dominated black business establishment. This includes famed educator and advocate Booker T. Washington, who's the head of what's known then as the National Negro Business League. It's now been renamed the National Business League. But at the time, it connected black entrepreneurs across the country, aiming to support them and, and black businesses. So the people of Madam CJ Walker's era have a stigma against black beauty brands. They're largely run by women. Right. The stigma is that it puts undue focus on appearance

• 1:23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  at a time when real bodily violence is regularly being waged on black Americans. Also, the criticism is that they're selling products that push white beauty standards. Right. But when this accusation comes up, Madam CJ Walker consistently pushes back on this idea that her products are somehow helping black women assimilate into the white status quo. She was once quoted as saying, quote, "Let me correct the erroneous impression held by some that I claim to straighten hair. I deplore such an impression because I've always held myself out as a hair culturalist. I grow hair."

• 1:24:31Georgia Hardstark?

  She doesn't straighten hair.

• 1:24:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Georgia Hardstark?

  She grows it.

• 1:24:34Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. As the official website for the Madam C.J. Walker estate notes, there is a persistent falsehood that she invented straightening combs and chemical perms. She did not. The undeniable fact is that by 1912, Madam C.J. Walker is employing around 1,600 salespeople and generating about $4,000 a month, which is more than $130,000 a month in today's money.

• 1:25:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  She is a business powerhouse, who's always working to expand her operation, even spending time in Central American and Caribbean nations. We were just there in a Caribbean nation. And yet, none of that even gets her a mention at the 1912 National Business League Convention. And you better believe she is there in the audience. And she's so frustrated, she stands up and addresses Booker T. Washington directly, in front of everyone, saying, quote, "Surely you are not going to shut the door in my face. I'm a woman who started a business seven years ago with only $1.50. I went into a business that is despised, that is criticized, and talked about by everybody, the business of growing hair.

• 1:25:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I've been trying to get, before you business people, to tell you what I'm doing. I'm a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there, I was promoted to the wash tub. Then I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there, I promoted myself into the business of manufacturing hair goods and preparations. My object in life is not simply to make money for myself, or to spend it on myself. I love to use a part of what I make in trying to help others." In 1913, Madam C.J. Walker donates $1,000, which is more than $30,000 in today's money, to help fund the building of a black YMCA in Indianapolis.

• 1:26:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so much money, it grabs national newspaper headlines. And just for perspective, the average black family's income around this time is around $12 a week.

• 1:26:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus, and she donates $1,000.

• 1:26:34Karen Kilgariff?

  She, yeah.

• 1:26:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:26:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so she's undeniable. Yeah. And God, how frustrating for her, but like, oh. Yeah, they just, well, it's like, oh, you do that thing. Right. Which is what culture does to women. Yeah. You do something, you're successful, well, that's immoral. You shouldn't do that. Right. That's bad. Yeah. Vocal fry. Yeah. We've all Right. You, you land at the, in the winner's circle and they figure out all the ways to push you out. Yep. You don't know what I'm talking about. You have no, you have no experience like this. What do you mean? What in the world could you mean? But the good news is Booker T. Washington did take her seriously. And so he invites her to the next year's 1913 National Business League Convention.

• 1:27:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, and he invites her to address attendees who come. And he also comes to Indianapolis for the YMCA's dedication ceremony. Wow. It's reported that Madam Walker sends her chauffeur to pick him up from the train station. Yes. And she has him stay at her home as a guest. Amazing. So she's going to show him exactly how successful she is. Little baller. Right? Love this woman. Yeah. Like where she got this spirit. Yeah. And it, like, clearly, it's like, her parents were people that are like, we'll do it ourselves. Yeah. We'll, we'll go and do it then. Incredible. And her brothers, four barbers. Yeah. Like Chutzpah. Yeah. So by 1916, when she's around 49 years old, Madam C. J. Walker has grown a national network of around 40,000 salespeople.

• 1:28:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. She begins organizing them into regional chapters who meet annually at their own conventions. The inaugural Madam C. J. Walker Hair Culturalists Union of America Convention is held in 1917. Oh, my God. So in 1912, they tried to push her out. And within four years, she's got her own fucking convention, is how she does it. Wow. And it's one of the first national businesswomen conferences in American history. Jesus. Separate from skin color. Madam C. J. Walker uses that meeting to celebrate and reward her employees for their hard work. It's said that she is widely considered to be a wonderful boss. Wow. But this beauty convention is also expressly political.

• 1:28:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, the summer of 1917 is remembered as a particularly violent period with many incidents of horrific racist brutality at the hands of white mobs. It's only four years later that the burning of Black Wall Street happened, which we talk about on this show. Right. Which is a horrible example of one of those moments. Okay, so at the 1917 convention, Madam C.J. Walker tells her employees, quote, "This is the greatest country under the sun, but we must not let our love of our country, our patriotic loyalty, cause us to abate one whit in our protest against wrong and injustice," end quote. That same summer, Madam C.J.

• 1:29:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Walker is among the organizers of a march down New York City's Fifth Avenue protesting racial violence. Wow. Many of her employees participate. Meanwhile, her net worth is ballooning and etching her into history as one of the very first self-made female millionaires ever. Holy fucking shit. How do we not know about this? I don't know. Why isn't that name a household name? Wow. Madam C.J. Walker buys beautiful homes in several cities. She begins building an impressive 35-room, three-story mansion in Irvington on Hudson, New York. Oh, yeah. 20 miles north of the city in Westchester County. Oh, my god. And this is the area where several white, male, gilded-age tycoons have built estates. Yeah.

• 1:30:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's said that Madam Walker wants to live here specifically to symbolize-- god, she's the fucking greatest. I know. She's got it figured out. Specifically to symbolize everything that a black woman can accomplish. Fuck, yeah. Dude, I fucking love it. She's like the original version of Representation Matters. Right. Put your face on the can. Yeah. Put your fucking house next to the white tycoons. Stand up at the convention that won't acknowledge you and tell them why they fucking will and must acknowledge you. I'll be here next year and hear the reasons why Booker T. Washington. Dude. So awesome. Okay. She even contacts New York's first registered black architect to build that property for her. Amazing. Just badass. Yeah. As her Westchester mansion is being completed, Madam C.J.

• 1:30:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Walker spends much of her time in Harlem, and she becomes very passionate about the NAACP's anti-lynching work that they have started.

• 1:31:04Karen Kilgariff?

  She donates the equivalent of $126,000 in today's money to them. And in 1917, she visits the White House to advocate for federal anti-lynching laws.

• 1:31:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:31:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So she's going all the way there.

• 1:31:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:19Karen Kilgariff?

  This isn't like, oh, that might affect my reputation if I get into that business.

• 1:31:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Less than two years later, in 1919, Madam C.J. Walker dies of kidney failure brought on by hypertension.

• 1:31:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 1:31:31Karen Kilgariff?

  She's 51 years old.

• 1:31:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:31:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Not long before her death, she updates her will so that 2/3 of her future net profits from her company go to charity.

• 1:31:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:31:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh. Her family has plenty.

• 1:31:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how you do it.

• 1:31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  She leaves about $100,000 of her fortune, which is more than 2.5 million today, to causes like funding schools, civil rights organizations, and Black community institutions. After her death, Madam C.J. Walker's beloved daughter, Aleleah, carries her mother's legacy forward and becomes one of the most important patrons of Black artists and thinkers during the Harlem Renaissance. Aleleah will pass in 1931, when she's in her mid-40s, also of complications caused by hypertension. Decades later, her namesake and Madam C.J. Walker's great-great-granddaughter, Aleleah Bundles, whose research has been cited extensively in this story, works to preserve her family's

• 1:32:31Karen Kilgariff?

  history and to tell their complete story. Of Madam C.J. Walker, Aleleah said, quote, "When I look at her life, I think it's fabulous that she became a millionaire. It's stunning that she became a millionaire. But for me, the most lasting legacy is that she empowered people and that she used her money to make a difference in her community and to show other people their ability to make a difference in their communities."

• 1:32:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:32:56Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. And that's the story of Madam C.J. Walker.

• 1:33:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. We should do a donation to end this.

• 1:33:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Good idea.

• 1:33:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Where do you want to do it to?

• 1:33:06Karen Kilgariff?

  How about the NAACP?

• 1:33:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it.

• 1:33:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Sound good?

• 1:33:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it.

• 1:33:11Georgia Hardstark?

  10 grand?

• 1:33:12Karen Kilgariff?

  If we could only be...

• 1:33:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  A 10th of what Madam C.J. Walker was.

• 1:33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly, which in today's percentage is 10 grand.

• 1:33:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It's 10 grand to the NAACP.

• 1:33:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. That's amazing.

• 1:33:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 1:33:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:33:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That hit all the spots.

• 1:33:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:33:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, inspiring.

• 1:33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And fun.

• 1:33:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And TikToki.

• 1:33:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And hair.

• 1:33:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And hair.

• 1:33:35Georgia Hardstark?

  She didn't fucking need TikTok even.

• 1:33:37Karen Kilgariff?

  She did it herself.

• 1:33:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:39Karen Kilgariff?

  She went out there and did it herself.

• 1:33:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:33:42Karen Kilgariff?

  She found the niche. She found the unanswered niche. She answered it.

• 1:33:45Georgia Hardstark?

  You guys find yours. We'll be there supporting you and backing you up and we're fucking on your side.

• 1:33:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, once you do that, write into us at [email protected] and tell us all about all of your dreams coming true.

• 1:33:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we want it. Write in your vision board.

• 1:34:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Manifesting style, like it's already happened?

• 1:34:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or if it already did, tell us.

• 1:34:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I built my mansion on Irvington on Hudson, right next to all the other TyCans.

• 1:34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, thank you guys so much for listening. We appreciate you as always, forever and ever.

• 1:34:18Karen Kilgariff?

  We appreciate you watching. If you're on Netflix.

• 1:34:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we do.

• 1:34:21Karen Kilgariff?

  This is podcasting. Have you heard of it?

• 1:34:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Podcasting 2026, baby.

• 1:34:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 1:34:36Karen Kilgariff?

  All right, here we go. This is really gonna be a true Honking Hooray. Uh, yeah, definitely. Because you love to honk the horn. I do. And I can't read while I'm driving or I'll get viciously carsick. No, so I will handle reading all the Honking Hoorays. Okay. Also, thank you to Hyundai for letting us present the Honking Hoorays in action in a moving car. In my actual Hyundai. Also, I just want to point out Yeah. that this car has air conditioning in the seats. In the seats. In the seats. Our butts are so air conditioned right now. Can't even tell you, as a middle-aged woman, how important this feature is to me. It's truly innovative. Okay, you want to start these? Yeah, let's do it. Read to me, please.

• 1:35:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's our first Honking Hooray, presented by Hyundai. It says, "Hi to my closest gal pals that I've never actually met. While listening to your rewind episode, the great Guy Law Time New Year's Spectacular, featuring Guy Branum, I had a full circle moment. The last time I heard this episode was eight years ago, when I had just packed up my life and moved across the country for law school. I was also more than tired of studying for my final criminal law exam. So imagine my joy when I realized Karen and Georgia were suddenly helping me review the McNaughton Rule. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah. And y'all, I aced that exam. You and Guy Branum are absolutely welcome to take the credit. That alone is a major hooray, but the bigger hooray is this.

• 1:36:03Karen Kilgariff?

  The episode reminded me of how far I've come since then. Cops. The real cops. Cops. Yes. From behind? From the side? Okay, now we're good. Okay. Um, in the eight years since, I've tackled plenty of obstacles, like taking the bar exam in my bathroom, and then it says, "Yes, really thanks COVID and your charming at-home testing rules that disqualified every other room in my apartment." Oh my God. And yet, here we are in 2025, two dogs, one husband, one baby, one law degree later, and "MFM" was the soundtrack to it all. Hooray for women in male-dominated fields, for working moms, and for Guy Branum's criminal law expertise. Stay sexy and don't forget how far you've come. Amanda.

• 1:36:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God, congratulations. Amanda is a mom, a lawyer, a badass, and it's all because of us. Do you understand that? Congratulations, and you're welcome. I think the McNaughton Rule really came alive when we talked about it. That's what I found out about it. That's right. Here's the next one. This says, "Airplane Hooray." And it says, "Hi ladies, my hooray is my flight. I fly almost every week for work, so flights typically don't bother me. On this flight, we had taken off and we were in the air for about an hour when they told us to turn around and make an emergency landing due to the," in all caps, "hydraulic system having a break in it." What? That's right. Very similar to episode 486, "Take These From Me."

• 1:37:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That was the title of the episode. I, having just listened to this episode, started to freak out while simultaneously keeping a calm composure. All I could do was think about, oh, God, this is gonna be just like that MFM episode. Luckily, the amazing pilots landed us safe and sound with just a little more than a jolt. Thanks for helping me make my commutes entertaining, Brad.

• 1:37:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Aw.

• 1:37:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Brad.

• 1:37:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Brad. Glad you survived.

• 1:37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Brad, you really did it. Okay, I'm gonna read another one.

• 1:37:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:38:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Because this one's really fun. This says, you guys, listening to the recent Colin Farrell hometown made me remember I had something to share. I went across the pond for the first time recently where I got engaged. That's a hooray in itself, but the best part of my trip? Going to a small town in England where we met some people at a pub who were obsessed with my fiancee over his resemblance to Colin Farrell. We hung out and got drunk with them for hours. Not once did they call him by his real name. For one magical night, I was engaged to a movie star. So, hooray for my super hottie boyfriend, soon to be my husband. Love you, Ryan, who I wouldn't trade for anyone in the world, even Colin. And that's from Tess.

• 1:38:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Aw, Tess.

• 1:38:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Tess, that's a really sweet honking hooray. It's about love. It's about appreciating Irish people. I mean, English people. Should be Irish people.

• 1:38:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's about going to bars and meeting new people.

• 1:38:53Karen Kilgariff?

  All the great things in this world.

• 1:38:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, those are our honking hoorays.

• 1:38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's it.

• 1:38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's it.

• 1:38:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks, Hyundai, for giving us this car to drive around.

• 1:39:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And for sponsoring our honking hoorays.

• 1:39:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Bye.

• 1:39:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:39:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah, and don't get murdered.

• 1:39:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:39:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:39:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah.

• 1:39:17Speaker 04

  This has been an Exactly Right Production. Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle Lassaveto. This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Okun. Email your hometowns to [email protected]. And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye.

• 1:39:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:39:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:40:05Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:40:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:40:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:40:30Speaker 07

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:40:43Speaker 08

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to want to more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair,

• 1:41:27Speaker 08

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:41:30Speaker 09

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:42:01Speaker 10

  If you travel for work like I do, you know every trip is an opportunity to get more from the miles you're already earning. Whether you're heading to your next client meeting or catching a flight home, those miles can go a long way. For a limited time, new Delta SkyMiles Business Card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offered this year, with the Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express Card. Apply today at www.delta.com/podcast. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.

• 1:42:35Speaker 11

  By the time I hit my 50s, I'd learned a few things, like how family is precious. Work can always wait. And 99% of people over 50 already have the virus that causes shingles. Not everyone at risk will develop it, but I did. The painful blistering rash disrupted my life for weeks. Don't learn about your shingles risk the hard way. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today. Sponsored by GSK.