Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 523 - I'm the Loudest, You're the Smartest About this episode On today’s episode, Karen covers a trio of Bad Bridgets and Georgia tells the story of Mohammed Islam’s teenage day trading hoax.
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Transcript 11,899 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 01 OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
0:35 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book.
0:39 Karen Kilgariff? Well, grow up, because it's almost impossible.
0:41 Georgia Hardstark? Luckily, you can take your next great story with you on Audible.
0:44 Karen Kilgariff? Audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from, including This American Life, new books by Michael Connelly, along with classics from Magga the Christie, and so much more.
0:53 Georgia Hardstark? Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.
0:59 Karen Kilgariff? New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.
1:04 Georgia Hardstark? Audible, stories that speak to you. Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception, his mom.
1:20 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
1:27 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.
1:29 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.
1:35 Speaker 04 Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit firefox.com.
2:21 Karen Kilgariff? Hello and welcome.
2:23 Georgia Hardstark? To my favorite murder.
2:25 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hardstark.
2:26 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilcarrot.
2:28 Karen Kilgariff? And it's St. Patrick's Day, everybody. Welcome to our St. Patrick's Day party. I noticed that whoever got these balloons, very Protestant-based. The orange represents Northern Ireland. I just want to say right now.
2:42 Georgia Hardstark? I didn't know that.
2:43 Karen Kilgariff? There'd be a lot more green in here if I was the one at the...
2:47 Speaker 05 There was a green shamrock balloon situation. They didn't float. I'm sorry.
2:53 Karen Kilgariff? Was that true?
2:54 Speaker 05 Yeah, we had a balloon fiasco earlier.
2:57 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no. Did I just uncover it through politics?
3:01 Speaker 05 I'm highly political.
3:04 Georgia Hardstark? Send us your hate email at myfavoritemurder@gmail. What side are you on of the Irish Civil War? Let us know.
3:13 Karen Kilgariff? Let us know. Should we just get right into the network stuff?
3:17 Georgia Hardstark? Let's do it.
3:18 Karen Kilgariff? All right, so we have a podcast network. And here's some highlights and stuff that's going on there.
3:24 Georgia Hardstark? This week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul head to Long Island in 1955 to kick off part one of the shooting of the century. Some of America's wealthiest socialites gather for a glamorous party, but before morning arrives, a murder is committed.
3:39 Karen Kilgariff? Also, the final episodes of our two newest series, Two-Face John of God, dropped last week. You can binge the entire story in both English and Spanish. We expect you to listen to both.
3:49 Georgia Hardstark? And on I Said No Gifts, Bridget graciously looks the other way when Stephanie Courtney from The Goldbergs, Mad Men, barges in with a gift. And then the two get into CD changers, evil crystals, and Claire Danes's stress level.
4:02 Karen Kilgariff? Here's a fun fact. Stephanie Courtney is Flo from Progressive.
4:06 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, amazing.
4:08 Karen Kilgariff? And if you're preparing for the Oscars this Sunday, Dear Movies, I Love You is here to help. Millian Casey are breaking down the predictions, snubs, and the most baffling nominations from this year, so you can walk into your Oscar pool feeling extremely confident. Plus, the hilarious Paul Rust joins them, talking about his area of expertise, which is John Hughes movies.
4:28 Georgia Hardstark? And in the merch corner, a limited number of MFM collegiate unisex crewnecks are available. I had mine on this morning. It's so cozy and comfy. Karen's holding it up now. It's like, you didn't have to go to college, it turns out. All I have to do is buy this sweater. Grab yours while they last at exactlyrightstore.com. And that's what's going on in our network, Exactly Right Media.
4:52 Speaker 01 OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.
5:21 Karen Kilgariff? Between work, school, family obligations, and the endless Halloween hustle, it often feels like there's never a good time to slow down. The costumes, the parties, the planning, it all adds up. But no matter how busy life gets, even a small break can help us recharge, reset, and actually enjoy the moment we're in. Because breaks don't have to be big to matter. They can be the 15 minutes in your car before pickup, or the two minutes while your little pumpkin ties his shoes. The pause between one task and the next, when you finally get a second to yourself. Kit Kat gives people permission to take the break they've earned and make it a better break, a real break. Because when you stop, even briefly, you don't fall behind. You come back a little lighter, a little clearer, a little more ready for whatever's next.
6:04 Karen Kilgariff? While the world tells us to keep going, Kit Kat reminds us that the best time for a break is now. Have a break, have a Kit Kat. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
6:15 Georgia Hardstark? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.
6:18 Karen Kilgariff? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.
6:28 Georgia Hardstark? If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.
6:39 Karen Kilgariff? Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula.
6:43 Georgia Hardstark? Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.
6:47 Karen Kilgariff? I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping and when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.
7:02 Georgia Hardstark? And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?
7:05 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you call my feet stinky?
7:08 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.
7:13 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.
7:18 Georgia Hardstark? Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.
7:20 Karen Kilgariff? It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.
7:25 Georgia Hardstark? Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.
7:32 Karen Kilgariff? Hatch Sleep Clock.
7:33 Georgia Hardstark? The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.
7:37 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.
7:42 Georgia Hardstark? Pair your salty side with something sweet with the new salted caramel flavor from Kachava.
7:47 Karen Kilgariff? Kachava is a whole body shake with plant-based protein, fiber, greens, and other nutrients to help fill nutritional gaps.
7:54 Georgia Hardstark? Just two scoops provide complete nutrition your body craves with protein, fiber, greens, and so much more.
8:00 Karen Kilgariff? Their new salty caramel flavor combines sweet caramel with a little salt, so you get that salty-sweet balance along with the nutrition Kachava is known for.
8:08 Georgia Hardstark? When the day demands your salty side, fuel it with plant-based protein that actually tastes delicious.
8:13 Karen Kilgariff? I really do love Kachava and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.
8:24 Georgia Hardstark? It's such an easy way to get everything you need and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.
8:29 Karen Kilgariff? So embrace your salty side.
8:30 Georgia Hardstark? Go to kachava.com and use code M.
8:32 Karen Kilgariff? MFM for 15% off your first order. That's Kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM. Goodbye.
8:42 Karen Kilgariff? And I go first today. So, Maren, I believe, suggested this after reading a book, and the book is Bad Bridget: Crime, Mayhem, and the Lives of Irish Immigrant Women Oh. by Drs. Elaine Farrell and Leanne McCormick. How fitting. So, of course, as we are heading into St. Patrick's Day, we do love to celebrate the holidays here in my favorite, Marner. It's what we do. But I'm going to zoom in on a very specific corner of the Irish diaspora, which is Irish girls and women who emigrated to North America in the late 1800s and the early 1900s. We remember them as tireless, resilient, selfless women who worked their fingers to the bone to build a better life for their families. It's very true, having, being very related to some Irish women of
9:27 Karen Kilgariff? this era, were distinct, they were diverse, they were complex, and regardless of whether history remembers them individually as saints or sinners, their stories are always filled with an incredible amount of humanity and, of course, humor. So here's a few of the cases unearthed by the Irish historians Elaine Farrell and Leanne McCormick for their book, Bad Bridgets. There's also a deep dive podcast that they made called Bad Bridget. So if you want to hear more of these stories, because they've got a bunch of them, because it's basically like the crime records of the day. So you can go and listen to that. So, these women basically are referred to as Bad Bridgets because Bridget is a very
10:08 Karen Kilgariff? common Irish name at the time. And in the 19th century, Bridget was a catchall, kind of shitty nickname for Irish women in general, because there were so many domestic workers who had emigrated to America. So there were, the Bridgets were everywhere. So, this is roughly between the years of 1850 and the early 1900s, where Irish immigrants have arrived at ports in these cities around the country in huge numbers. They are mostly poor, they're mostly Catholic, not Protestant, and they're deeply... I said I was sorry. And they're deeply unwelcome. By the white Protestant establishment. So the people that came over in the Mayflower, those are the Protestants. The Catholics were the ones that were being persecuted in many places.
10:53 Karen Kilgariff? So that's why some Catholics came over. Many people, though, were starving from the Irish potato famine, which was, in fact, the British government withholding food from the Irish. We're just getting everything real clear here on St. Patrick's Day. Got it. So when these immigrants arrived, there were signs in shop windows that said, "No Irish need apply." There was a lot of what now seems kind of like really Irish racism, but it was part of the across-the-board racism that I think every immigrant probably dealt with coming into America at the time. So Irish immigrants were shut out of decent-paying work. They're packed into tenements. They're over-surveilled. They're over-policed. And that means they're disproportionately represented in the prison systems.
11:38 Karen Kilgariff? It sounds familiar because it is familiar. Early 1860s in New York City, Irish women account for four out of every five women in the jails or prisons that are there. Wow. Yeah. In turn of the century, Boston, Irish women and girls make up nearly 40% of the prison population, despite the city's overall population being less than 20% Irish. And of course, these numbers are used to justify ugly stereotypes that Irish women are inherently criminal or morally corrupt. But the second you dig into the actual stories behind these stats, of course, things are much more complex. So that brings us to our first Bridget that I'm going to be talking about, a woman named Bridget McCool.
12:23 Karen Kilgariff? In 1804, she arrives in Massachusetts as a teenager. She finds work as a laundress and in a mill. Then she marries a guy named Thomas. But it's not a good relationship. He abandons her within two years, and he leaves her penniless. And because she's a poor Irish Catholic woman, divorce is basically off the table. It's stigmatized by the church, especially back then. It just never happened. But on top of that, it was expensive and it was time-consuming. And yet, a woman abandoned in a major city, who has no idea where her next meal is coming from, needs a husband for a shot at financial stability. So Bridget gets remarried without first divorcing Thomas.
13:07 Karen Kilgariff? So she's a bigamist. When Thomas catches wind of Bridget's illegal second marriage, he reports her to the police.
13:14 Georgia Hardstark? Dude, just go away.
13:16 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, how do you prove better that you should have been divorced than to be that kind of guy?
13:20 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, I left her, now she's remarried.
13:22 Karen Kilgariff? I'm a douche and a narc. What a combination. More so, he's remarried at this point.
13:29 Georgia Hardstark? Come on.
13:30 Karen Kilgariff? So he basically shoots himself in the foot because they both wind up being arrested because they're both adulterers and bigamists. Bridget spends two years in prison, but when she gets out, her personal life doesn't improve over the next couple of decades. When she serves out her sentence, she tries to pick up the pieces of her life. She gets married a third time, again, still hasn't gotten that initial first divorce. So she gets sent back to a reformatory. And when she completes this sentence, and after her relationship with husband number three ends, she goes ahead and illegally marries a fourth time.
14:05 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, good God.
14:06 Karen Kilgariff? She's just doubling, tripling, quadrupling down. This one's actually a remarriage to her second husband, who financially supported her after Thomas, husband number one, left. But then, once she's in this marriage, the twist is that Bridget McCool finds out that her current husband, so number two and number four, one guy, he's been lying this whole time about being a widower.
14:30 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, God.
14:31 Karen Kilgariff? A woman he'd married years earlier, who he's no longer with, but hadn't divorced, is in fact still alive.
14:37 Georgia Hardstark? This is really romantic, because yesterday was mine and Vince's 10-year anniversary. It just feels like a great story for this time.
14:44 Karen Kilgariff? To show you how it could be and that how it is not?
14:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's exactly.
14:48 Karen Kilgariff? I would imagine a lot less lying from our man Vince.
14:52 Georgia Hardstark? Less lying, less prison time. He is no fucking narc, I'll tell you that right now.
14:57 Karen Kilgariff? He's certainly no narc.
14:59 Georgia Hardstark? No.
14:59 Karen Kilgariff? That is very true. And you know what? He wouldn't call himself a widower unless he really was a widower.
15:04 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
15:06 Karen Kilgariff? Of course, this betrayal is what finally pushes Bridgette to seek and obtain a legal divorce on the grounds of cruelty. And finally, that story wraps up. But it's that kind of thing where it's like, thinking about the immigrant experience, you are left, you're sent away from your family, often alone, or with maybe one or two other people, trying to make it in a place like New York City, Boston, wherever. And one thing goes wrong, and then it all goes wrong.
15:32 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. As much as I want to be like, "Why'd you keep doing that?" It's like, because you'll never know how fucking difficult life was and is for other people, so I'm not gonna...
15:41 Karen Kilgariff? Right. And this idea that especially back then, women, it was like, you can be a laundress and touch everybody's shit-stained sheets.
15:50 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
15:51 Karen Kilgariff? Or you could be a sex worker, but that's the worst thing morally that the man in the sky thinks.
15:56 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
15:57 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. So even though Bridgette McCool is technically a criminal in the eyes of the law, she's clearly not a bad woman. It basically just drives home this truth that the law punishes the people who are just trying to survive the worst, usually. And that's a common theme for sex workers from this era, and there were a lot of them at the turn of the 20th century. In New York City in 1870, for example, The New York Times reports that there are more than 10,000 sex workers at the time when the city's population is just under 1 million people. And that means, this is the new how much in today's money, that means one sex worker for every 100 New Yorkers.
16:35 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
16:36 Karen Kilgariff? As Dr. Verrell and Dr. McCormick point out in their book, the past Irish women and girls take into sex work is not monolithic. Some are vulnerable, some have no connections or legal protections in the US, some are exploited by bad men right after they arrive. I think I've told you this story, but my grandmother came here when she was 17 with her two sisters. They land in New York City, they go through Ellis Island, and then they're supposed to meet a sponsor. And the sponsor is the person that set them up with work, which is the reason they were able to come. And sometimes they come on a loan, and the sponsor's like, "I fronted you this money, now you're gonna go work here."
17:14 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus. Yeah.
17:15 Karen Kilgariff? Not great.
17:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
17:16 Karen Kilgariff? So they landed and this man meets them at the docks or whatever and he's like, you know, my grandmother described it to my aunt who described it to me, that he was just kind of some blowhard with like, you know, in white linen. And he drives them into it to a tenement house on the Lower East Side and walks them up and puts them into this like apartment. That's one room, basically, and he's like, and I'll be here in the morning and you better be ready and da, da, da. And the door shuts and he leaves and my grandmother, who's seventeen years old at the time, turns to her older sister and her younger sister and goes, I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting out of here. And they had a postcard that they used to have in their house in Longford, Ireland. Relatives sent them a postcard of this, of San Francisco.
18:00 Karen Kilgariff? So my grandma said, let's go to San Francisco. The streets are really clean there.
18:04 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
18:05 Karen Kilgariff? And that's how like our family came to be, was like.
18:08 Georgia Hardstark? Across the fucking entire country. I'm seventeen.
18:11 Karen Kilgariff? Seventeen.
18:11 Georgia Hardstark? New to this place.
18:12 Karen Kilgariff? And like, basically like.
18:14 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck this shit.
18:14 Karen Kilgariff? This ain't me.
18:16 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, it happened.
18:17 Karen Kilgariff? I want to go somewhere else. Yeah. It's, it's so crazy. So that idea that like the amount of money and trust people were putting into the hands of like basic strangers to say, please take care of my teenager. Please take care of my family member. Once you get here, obviously a whole different story.
18:33 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
18:35 Karen Kilgariff? So many intersex work because it's preferable to low pay, taxing labor, long hours of domestic or laundry work. I mean, that's, there's some people who just make that choice, but oftentimes people are forced into it. And of course, there's all the risks that come with that decision, which is of course, disease, infection, unwanted pregnancies, male violence, and then incarceration. So this brings us to our second bad Bridgette, a woman named Marion Canning, who arrives in New York City in eighteen ninety when she's eighteen years old. She moves into a tenement on Mulberry Street, in notorious Five Points neighborhood of Lower Manhattan. So my grandma's story would be.
19:15 Karen Kilgariff? Twenty-five, thirty years later.
19:16 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, wow, okay.
19:17 Karen Kilgariff? But not crazy far away, which is the weird thing.
19:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that is very weird.
19:21 Karen Kilgariff? Marion's building has a reputation. At the time that she lives there, multiple stabbings and murders are reported inside. It's also thought that a brothel is operating out of it, which is probably how she came to live there. So, fast forward a year after her arriving in the city, it's July 1891. Marion's heading to her home one evening when a firefighter named Richard Brunkbank approaches her outside, propositions her for sex. She brings him inside, and then later on, he ends up accusing her of stealing his watch and some of his money. Someone calls the police. We're not sure which one of the two of them. Richard claims he calls the police to report the theft.
20:02 Karen Kilgariff? Marion says she called the police because she wanted a cop's help because she was being falsely accused.
20:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
20:09 Karen Kilgariff? Either way, Richard's watch and cash are not found on Marion, but she's charged with theft and carted off to jail anyway. We'll never know if she was innocent or if she did rob Richard and hide his possessions somewhere in her apartment. What we know is that many sex workers of this era do pick through their clients' pockets, knowing that the stigma of them hiring a sex worker is going to keep them from being reported. But even if Marion is innocent of this crime, which she very well might be, she's guilty by her association with sex work in the eyes of the people that they're reporting to, and she pays the price for it. She's sentenced to seven years in prison for this unproven theft.
20:51 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
20:52 Karen Kilgariff? Fortunately, her parents in Ireland find out that she's in prison. They don't know why, though. And her father ends up writing a letter to a judge, the judge from Marion's trial, and to the governor of New York, begging to have his daughter back and promising to write her course and asking for clemency for her. And it actually works. The governor's sympathetic, and Marion, who's now 21, gets a pardon. And after less than a year of serving her sentence, she's freed from jail. Anne's father sends money for her trip back to Ireland, so she goes back home and gets married not long after. And as Leanne McCormick writes, quote, "It's unlikely
21:34 Karen Kilgariff? that anyone in her hometown ever knew the exact details of what had happened to her in New York. The disgrace attached to being in prison would have been enough to prevent a marriage taking place, never mind the additional shame of having been involved in sex work."
21:48 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
21:49 Karen Kilgariff? So she's incredibly lucky because she has the kind of family that's like, wait, we can take her back and we can do something with this. But most people were like leaving and
21:58 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
21:59 Karen Kilgariff? the end.
21:59 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
22:00 Karen Kilgariff? And she lived a quiet life after that. So both Bridgette McCool and Marion Canning are punished and criminalized for trying to make their way in a foreign land without money, connections, or protection. And there, of course, are countless stories like this. But not every bad Bridgette fits this mold. The next Bridgette I'm going to tell you about seems to commit crimes because she's really good at it, not because she's desperate.
22:23 Georgia Hardstark? That sounds fun.
22:24 Karen Kilgariff? Right. So we're back in New York City, 19th century. And the police are doing something revolutionary for the time, which is they're photographing criminals and compiling their images into big books that are basically our early mugshot databases. This is really helpful because so many criminals take on aliases and basically it's easy to evade the law because they're just kind of like, no, it's me, Jerry.
22:49 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
22:49 Karen Kilgariff? Seinfeld. You know.
22:51 Georgia Hardstark? No way. That's Jerry Garcia. And you know it. I know it. And you know it. We can prove it.
22:56 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, so of course mugshots are like such scientific advancement because now suddenly they can, it's not based on memory. It's like, it's this guy right here. They assemble one book in 1886 that features 204 criminals at large in New York City. And one of those criminals is old Mother Hubbard.
23:14 Georgia Hardstark? No.
23:15 Karen Kilgariff? Well, not the real one.
23:16 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
23:19 Karen Kilgariff? Not the one who started Feeder Dog.
23:20 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
23:21 Karen Kilgariff? No, this is a, this was a nickname that this woman got because she just looked like an unassuming little old lady. Her name is actually Margaret Brown.
23:30 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
23:30 Karen Kilgariff? But she's not the Margaret Brown from the Titanic, the unsinkable Molly Brown that I've talked to you about.
23:35 Georgia Hardstark? Bridgets and Margarets and Browns and fucking green, green and orange.
23:40 Karen Kilgariff? And green and orange, we've taken over. We've, we've, we've been under the skin of this country for such a long time, the Irish. So this Margaret Brown, which is I think like being named Jim Smith, probably. There's a lot of unknowns about her and of course she does have many other names besides Margaret Brown. We don't even know if that's her real name. It's just one of the names. She claims her legal name is Elizabeth Haskins. We don't know if that's true. She also goes by Eliza Burnham, Jane Hutchinson and Mrs. Arthur Young, which I'm taking that one. We don't know how old she is. Some of the best historical sources place her anywhere from her 60s to her 80s. Can we see that mugshot in here, Molly?
24:23 Georgia Hardstark? That's another one of those. Is it an old hat or is it a young lady? Turn it upside down and it's a vase.
24:30 Karen Kilgariff? For real?
24:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
24:31 Karen Kilgariff? Also, is it a wig and a hat?
24:33 Georgia Hardstark? I feel like if I hadn't started getting Botox at 33, that's what I would look like right now.
24:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
24:38 Georgia Hardstark? You know?
24:38 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, it's dead on. It's so you.
24:40 Georgia Hardstark? It's very me.
24:42 Karen Kilgariff? You and your big hats and your downturn. I love it when people's expression is like literally fully downturned where it looks like Margaret can't smile if she wants to.
24:52 Georgia Hardstark? No, no.
24:53 Karen Kilgariff? If only she knew she was surrounded by beautiful balloons. This is where you get to, Margaret. Okay, so I think she, in that picture, I think she was, if it's 1886, I bet you she was in her late 50s.
25:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:08 Karen Kilgariff? It's one of those.
25:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:09 Karen Kilgariff? What she is, is a superstar street thief who's operated in a large number of cities like Boston, Philly, St. Louis, as far away as Texas. Local newspapers have described her as, quote, "one of the most successful and notorious pickpockets and shoplifters in the country."
25:26 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, can we just say, how fun is your life? Sorry, don't fucking steal from people, but.
25:33 Karen Kilgariff? But.
25:34 Georgia Hardstark? Look.
25:34 Karen Kilgariff? She's like, I stole that hat. I stole it right off the dummy's head. Okay, so here's what we can't piece together about Margaret's life. She's born in Ireland, she emigrates to the US, she takes on legitimate domestic work, and she eventually falls in with a woman named Frederica Mandelbaum, or Marm, or Mother Mandelbaum. And we've actually talked about Mother Mandelbaum on this show before. She's a legendary fence. So remember that, that lady that used to sell stuff? Like, the criminals would come to her and she was like the middleman?
26:08 Georgia Hardstark? No, but it sounds right.
26:09 Karen Kilgariff? It's a-
26:10 Georgia Hardstark? Mandelbaum.
26:11 Karen Kilgariff? Mrs. Mandelbaum, and she's basically made her own way with the criminals and by the criminals. She moves stolen goods.
26:20 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
26:20 Karen Kilgariff? And she becomes a maternal figure for the gang of burglars and thieves and con men and women.
26:25 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, I remember her now, yeah.
26:27 Karen Kilgariff? On the Lower East Side. Margaret Brown is one of those people.
26:30 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
26:31 Karen Kilgariff? Maren very clearly said, note to Karen, Mandelbaum is Jewish, not Irish.
26:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:38 Karen Kilgariff? And also you covered her.
26:40 Georgia Hardstark? Right. That makes sense, all of it.
26:42 Karen Kilgariff? The name of the episode you covered her in is called, is episode 414, "Weather Influencers." Remember that hit?
26:50 Georgia Hardstark? No, but I'm on so much Sudafed right now, so it's okay.
26:54 Karen Kilgariff? Well, just focus.
26:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:55 Karen Kilgariff? Is going fast helping, or would it be better to go slow?
26:58 Georgia Hardstark? No, I'll fall asleep if you go slow.
26:59 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. Margaret's specialty is pickpocketing, which at the time is mostly left to children and sex workers.
27:06 Georgia Hardstark? Those little grubby hands.
27:07 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, get in there.
27:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
27:09 Karen Kilgariff? The best thing about, for me, the musical Annie, is just the idea that it's like, well, there's orphans, but there's also children on the street, urchins that are out there, just like making it work.
27:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
27:19 Karen Kilgariff? But Margaret, who has a kind face and pretty hazel eyes, of course, has a real knack, because she looks like a sad little old lady. Never expect an old lady to do anything.
27:29 Georgia Hardstark? No.
27:30 Karen Kilgariff? So she develops her own signature MO. It's complete with a costume. She always wears these long calico dresses, like Little Bo Peep or Mother Goose.
27:38 Georgia Hardstark? Picturing my cat for some reason.
27:40 Karen Kilgariff? Calico.
27:42 Karen Kilgariff? There's a lot of fur on the outside.
27:44 Georgia Hardstark? Patches, okay.
27:46 Karen Kilgariff? Basically doing grandma drag.
27:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
27:47 Karen Kilgariff? So it really looks like she's unassuming and, right? She targets busy shops and department stores where she uses her quick agile hands to lift things off of oblivious customers. So she's shoplifting off the shoppers.
28:00 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
28:00 Karen Kilgariff? Which is kind of smart.
28:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:02 Karen Kilgariff? Because they're watching the goods, not the people's pockets, right?
28:06 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
28:06 Karen Kilgariff? So one officer describes her as having, quote, "a specialty of opening handbags, removing the pocketbook and closing them again."
28:14 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa.
28:15 Karen Kilgariff? That is a specialty.
28:16 Georgia Hardstark? That is... That's like unnecessary. You're showing off at this point. You don't need to do that.
28:21 Karen Kilgariff? Snap, you didn't notice. Also, I'm thinking back then, but I'm thinking of like 40s, 50s purses. Those ones with the big ball clasps that go snap really well.
28:29 Georgia Hardstark? Loud ass clasps.
28:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. She stashes the stolen loot in a waist bag that she's wearing under her dress.
28:36 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
28:37 Karen Kilgariff? She's also known to use a long wire, which she might stick out of her pocket or through a shopping basket. And after identifying her mark, the person she's going to steal from, she'll position the wire so that it gets tangled in that person's clothing. As Margaret, with all her grandmotherly sweetness, apologetically works to untangle the wire, she does a sleight of hand move into the pockets of the mark and steals their valuables. Oh, I'm so sorry. Are you okay over here?
29:03 Georgia Hardstark? Da da da da. Yeah, love it.
29:05 Karen Kilgariff? In one documented theft, Margaret steals $260 from a man's satchel.
29:12 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. 19...
29:13 Karen Kilgariff? 1890.
29:14 Georgia Hardstark? 1890, 260. I'm going to go, um, 21,000. 20,000.
29:21 Karen Kilgariff? It's $3,200. Sorry.
29:26 Georgia Hardstark? Did I mean... I'm tired. I'm tired.
29:29 Karen Kilgariff? Also, I... I won't stop playing this game.
29:32 Georgia Hardstark? I know. It's like... I won't stop letting you play it and doing it.
29:38 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry.
29:39 Georgia Hardstark? Why would a guy be carrying... Okay.
29:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She just basically makes bank off one man.
29:44 Georgia Hardstark? Great.
29:44 Karen Kilgariff? But she keeps going. And as skilled as she is said to be, she does get caught several times. After one of her arrests, police discover she's wearing an expensive silk dress under her cheap dress.
29:56 Georgia Hardstark? Layers. You've got a layer.
29:58 Karen Kilgariff? It's kind of awesome, where she's like, I'm actually very stylish. This is merely a costume. In a criminal career that's said to span four or five decades, Margaret will serve time in Chicago, Boston, and New York, including a stint at Blackwell's Island, just a few years before trailblazing journalist Nellie Bly goes undercover there.
30:18 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
30:18 Karen Kilgariff? She's seen all the bad shit. If you want to know the story of trailblazing journalist Nellie Bly, which is, it's pretty good. It's in episode 401, Keep a Lit on It. You know that one. So during a different incarceration at Juliet in Illinois in the 1870s, this early work, per some sources, Margaret would be in her 70s, but she tries to escape, which I don't buy it. Because I think her-
30:45 Georgia Hardstark? In her 70s? Yeah. She probably wanted to look older than she actually was, right?
30:48 Karen Kilgariff? And was lying to people.
30:49 Georgia Hardstark? It helped her.
30:50 Karen Kilgariff? They wrote in the book that she was in her 70s.
30:52 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
30:52 Karen Kilgariff? But she probably wasn't. And here's maybe proof of this theory.
30:55 Georgia Hardstark? Did you just call me baby?
30:56 Karen Kilgariff? Hey, baby. I think I said, here's maybe?
31:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
31:02 Karen Kilgariff? Did I?
31:03 Georgia Hardstark? You did.
31:04 Karen Kilgariff? What am I on? She reportedly tries to escape from jail by jumping out of a third story window.
31:10 Georgia Hardstark? No, just, just, just hang out.
31:13 Karen Kilgariff? She falls to the ground and almost dies from her injuries. But she doesn't die from those injuries. She recovers, she completes her prison sentence, and she continues creating a paper trail of arrests as she keeps it up into the 1880s. Her documented arrests stop somewhere around 1885. Whether this is when she dies, when she retires, or if she just stops getting caught altogether is a mysterious piece of her story. By the early 20th century, the number of Irish immigrants arriving in North America starts to slow down. Discrimination softens. Irish Americans begin seeing real upward mobility. As Elaine Farrell and- Leann McCormick, right, in their book Bad Bridget, quote, "The dominant narrative
31:56 Karen Kilgariff? of Irish immigration to North America became focused on those who came from humble beginnings in Ireland and made a better life for themselves. They or their children went on to become pillars of society. They became the Kennedys, a political dynasty, or the Ettons, who established Canada's largest department store chain. But as the Irish became more upwardly mobile, establishing themselves within North American society, there was no appetite on either side of the Atlantic to face up to the reality that many Irish female immigrants did not succeed, and that many ended up on the wrong side of the law. Telling the stories of these women is crucial to our understanding of the Irish past," end quote. And so today, as we celebrate St. Patrick's Day, we are honoring the Bridgets of all
32:39 Karen Kilgariff? kinds, and the Margretts, and the Marion's, and the Annie's, and her two sisters, who, as poor women, belong to a demographic that is so often omitted from history books. But now, thanks to the tireless efforts of Farrell and McCormick, and all of the historians that are keeping all of this history alive for all of us, and the history of the Bad Bridgets alive specifically, the stories are finally being told. And of course, there's a movie in the works, starring Daisy Edgar Jones, from Normal People.
33:11 Georgia Hardstark? Nice.
33:11 Karen Kilgariff? And it's going to be directed by the director Rich Pepeot, but I don't know if you ever saw the 2024 movie Kneecap about the Irish rappers, and they're super political, and it's amazing.
33:24 Georgia Hardstark? Is it a documentary, or is it?
33:25 Karen Kilgariff? It's scripted. It seems like, what do they call that? It's like a pseudo-doc, where it's like scripted, but it's based on their real lives.
33:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:32 Karen Kilgariff? And how they basically busted out as these kind of like Irish, I guess, rappers, but they like, their shit is about like freeing Palestine and stuff. Like, they're hyper-political, global. It's very, very cool. And the movie's great and got a lot of awards. So the Bad Bridgets movie is going to be made by the kneecap guy, which is
33:52 Georgia Hardstark? Nice.
33:53 Karen Kilgariff? very deserved, very on theme. And that's the story of the Bad Bridgets of early America.
34:00 Georgia Hardstark? Wow. I love that term, Bad Bridgets, like. That just encapsulates so much. Do you have pictures?
34:06 Karen Kilgariff? The Lower East Side, that's Five Points. There's a tenement house.
34:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, look at that tenement house.
34:11 Karen Kilgariff? Picture my grandma going, "I don't know about you guys, but I'm not staying here."
34:14 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely not, she said.
34:16 Karen Kilgariff? She said, "No way. Too much clutter."
34:18 Georgia Hardstark? God, that's so crazy.
34:20 Karen Kilgariff? There's the mugshot database. It wasn't a book.
34:22 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
34:23 Karen Kilgariff? That's why Maren called it a database. It literally looks like mini x-rays.
34:27 Georgia Hardstark? It does, like a x-ray board. There it is.
34:29 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, there we go.
34:30 Georgia Hardstark? God, if I could find one of those in an estate sale, my life would be complete.
34:35 Karen Kilgariff? In the basement of a Lower East Side Old Tenement House.
34:38 Georgia Hardstark? That's in there.
34:39 Karen Kilgariff? Just go in.
34:40 Georgia Hardstark? Ah.
34:41 Karen Kilgariff? Because the individual pictures in that thing are incredible, I bet you. I mean, there's like, there's her, and then there's...
34:48 Georgia Hardstark? That's like the find. Someone let us know. That's like, remember in the very beginning of the podcast, and I was like, "I've always wanted one of those Dare drug suitcases." That they would bring to Dare and show you all the different kinds of drugs. And someone went in their dad's fucking ex-cop garage and sent me that.
35:04 Karen Kilgariff? He got it.
35:04 Georgia Hardstark? So, we're asking for this now.
35:06 Karen Kilgariff? Ship it. We wanted to express shit.
35:09 Georgia Hardstark? Ship is rare antique.
35:11 Karen Kilgariff? We'll just hang it there, and then when we have pictures for our stories, we'll put them in that.
35:16 Georgia Hardstark? I love it.
35:16 Karen Kilgariff? And light them up.
35:18 Georgia Hardstark? We'll use it for good, we promise. Well, great job.
35:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
35:20 Georgia Hardstark? Bad Bridgets, if that's not a fucking punk band yet, then...
35:24 Karen Kilgariff? Come on.
35:24 Georgia Hardstark? All Lady punk band?
35:26 Karen Kilgariff? Let's talk to the kneecap boys about it.
35:28 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
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35:58 Karen Kilgariff? Between work, school, family obligations, and the endless Halloween hustle, it often feels like there's never a good time to slow down. The costumes, the parties, the planning, it all adds up. But no matter how busy life gets, even a small break can help us recharge. Set and actually enjoy the moment we're in. Because breaks don't have to be big to matter. They can be the 15 minutes in your car before pickup, or the two minutes while your little pumpkin ties his shoes. The pause between one task and the next, when you finally get a second to yourself. Kit Kat gives people permission to take the break they've earned and make it a better break, a real break. Because when you stop, even briefly, you don't fall behind. You come back a little lighter, a little clearer, a little more ready for whatever's next. While the world tells us to keep going,
36:43 Karen Kilgariff? Kit Kat reminds us that the best time for a break is now. Have a break, have a Kit Kat. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
36:52 Georgia Hardstark? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.
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37:05 Georgia Hardstark? If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.
37:16 Karen Kilgariff? Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula.
37:19 Georgia Hardstark? Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.
37:24 Karen Kilgariff? I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.
37:39 Georgia Hardstark? And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?
37:42 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you call my feet stinky?
37:45 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye.
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39:05 Georgia Hardstark? All right, well, mine's actually like a kind of scammy, similar in scam.
39:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
39:11 Georgia Hardstark? You know, the scam world, although very different and a little more, not a little more, very more current day. So this story is about a bright teenager who got caught up in a tall tale and wound up telling an elaborate hoax that fooled-
39:25 Karen Kilgariff? Is it me?
39:29 Georgia Hardstark? That fooled half of the media industry in New York during a time when the media industry in New York was substantially bigger and, you know, more impressive, I think, than it is now. This is the story of Mohammed Islam. The main sources used for the story are reporting from The Guardian and The New York Observer, and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So it's the fall of 2013. Take us back. And we're in Stuyvesant High School in Lower Manhattan. Stuyvesant is one of New York City's nine specialized high schools. So they have these high schools. Admission to these schools is determined only by a single academic entrance exam, which is all eighth graders take. It's really difficult to get into these schools.
40:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
40:12 Georgia Hardstark? It's an incredibly competitive environment, and the pressure is very high. If you get in, you still fucking better perform.
40:19 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
40:20 Georgia Hardstark? And actually-
40:21 Karen Kilgariff? That's how school is.
40:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
40:24 Karen Kilgariff? Not that one test.
40:26 Georgia Hardstark? No, Fame is one of those schools, like the school where Fame came from is one of the schools. It happens to just be performing arts at that one. All the other ones are based more on, sorry.
40:36 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, I just, when you said that about the schools, I thought of the Fame High School, but then I was like, don't try to change the subject to what you like talking about. So that's kind of exciting that it is.
40:46 Speaker 05 Kate went to that high school.
40:49 Georgia Hardstark? Stuyvesant?
40:51 Speaker 05 You bet.
40:51 Georgia Hardstark? Am I saying it right?
40:52 Speaker 05 She says it's right.
40:53 Georgia Hardstark? What the fuck?
40:55 Karen Kilgariff? God damn it.
40:55 Georgia Hardstark? Kate Phillock out there. That's crazy.
40:57 Karen Kilgariff? Wait, like Hot Lunch Jam? You stood on the table in the cafeteria and stuff?
41:01 Georgia Hardstark? Not the Fame one. This one.
41:04 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, this one?
41:04 Speaker 05 Math and Science School.
41:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
41:07 Speaker 05 Not Fame.
41:08 Georgia Hardstark? Not Fame.
41:08 Karen Kilgariff? She could have done both.
41:09 Speaker 05 But the Fame of Math and Science.
41:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, whatever that thrilling musical.
41:15 Karen Kilgariff? That musical is the musical we want to see.
41:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, these are some of the best high schools in the country and it's generally agreed upon that among these schools, Stuyvesant is the best in the city.
41:28 Karen Kilgariff? I know.
41:28 Georgia Hardstark? These schools draw from all over the city and Stuyvesant especially has a high proportion of students who are first generation Americans, often the children of immigrants who have made tremendous sacrifices for their children's education. So there's a lot of children of immigrants. However, there's just obviously, you know, a history of racism going on because it's a hard test to take and a lot of students who don't go to these schools that are, you get it.
41:56 Karen Kilgariff? Well, you know, what it makes me think of is the thing that happened where there was testing like that and they discovered, you know, like the systemic racism of that time where it would be word problems in math. And it'd be like, if so many people can sit on this length of sofa and so many people can sit in length of sofa, how long does the sofa have to be to fit this family? I totally made that up, but something like that. But the fact that they were using the word sofa instead of couch. So a bunch of kids who are culturally, had never heard the word before, were like, I don't even know how to work on this problem.
42:26 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
42:27 Karen Kilgariff? And they realized that certain, and I think the study was being done about black students that were taking these tests and like, Why do none of them do well?
42:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
42:35 Karen Kilgariff? And it's like, because that, no one's used the word sofa in their household ever.
42:39 Georgia Hardstark? That's a systemic racism issue. Okay. So these kids who make it into these very difficult to get into schools often grow up with a huge amount of pressure to perform very well academically. So there's a lot of pressure going on. They're very smart, but you know, they can't be like me and just not go to half of your high school period of time. So the fall of 2013.
43:03 Karen Kilgariff? A lot of pressure if you're an immigrant child.
43:06 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
43:06 Karen Kilgariff? Whose parents gave everything up to bring you to have, can you imagine, to go to high school?
43:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah. It's the fall of 2013 and Mohammed Islam is one of these such students. He is a soft spoken 16 year old whose parents immigrated from Bangladesh. Mohammed is a junior in high school and he's known around school to be brilliant in a school where everyone is pretty much brilliant. So that's a high achievement. He runs the school's investing club.
43:35 Karen Kilgariff? I was in that.
43:35 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
43:36 Karen Kilgariff? I was the secretary.
43:37 Georgia Hardstark? In which kids who are interested in the stock market make simulated trades with fake money. Just testing.
43:43 Karen Kilgariff? Just for fun.
43:43 Georgia Hardstark? No waters.
43:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
43:44 Georgia Hardstark? But then it starts to get around the school that on the side Mohammed, Mo as he's known, is actually making real investments with real money.
43:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
43:52 Georgia Hardstark? So it's not simulated. Turns out the rumor is that he's doing very well with these investments.
43:59 Karen Kilgariff? I don't mean to press you, but is that legal for like a high school student to be day trading?
44:04 Georgia Hardstark? I would assume you have to be 18.
44:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, right?
44:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but I don't know.
44:09 Karen Kilgariff? Maybe I'll learn something new as you tell me.
44:11 Georgia Hardstark? In November 2013, Mo appears in a listicle, remember those? On Business Insider of kid investors. It's like a 20 under 20. So I guess you can do that.
44:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I guess you can.
44:24 Georgia Hardstark? Seems like gambling, right?
44:25 Karen Kilgariff? It does, or like something that should be more official, but I guess it's like.
44:29 Georgia Hardstark? Or regulated.
44:30 Karen Kilgariff? I guess under 20 can still be over 18 and under 20, but it doesn't seem likely.
44:35 Georgia Hardstark? No. He tells Business Insider that he had gotten his start in penny stocks and then worked his way into higher stakes. He says, quote, "My main markets now are crude oil futures and gold futures, and I trade small to mid-cap equities when the futures don't present a good trade." It just makes me think of Trading Places, which Vincent and I watch every Christmas.
44:59 Karen Kilgariff? The best movie.
45:00 Georgia Hardstark? And that's all I know about stocks.
45:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
45:02 Georgia Hardstark? And that's what he knows about. So it's just stuff like that that I know nothing about. It's unclear how Mo first connects with the reporter of that Business Insider story, but at that point, he hasn't told anyone that he's made a serious amount of money with his trades. But somehow, over the course of the next year, rumors begin to swirl around Stuyvesant that Mo has made a staggering amount of money. And people seem to believe somehow the number that gets thrown around, that gets tied to him, is $72 million.
45:31 Karen Kilgariff? What?
45:32 Georgia Hardstark? That he has made.
45:34 Karen Kilgariff? In some casual day trades?
45:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, which is an outrageous and basically unheard of profit for anyone who's been trading for just a couple of years, let alone a high school student. So it's wild. It's big. A whole year goes by, and then in December of 2014, New York Magazine includes an article about Mo in its annual Reasons to Love New York issue.
45:53 Karen Kilgariff? Money.
45:54 Georgia Hardstark? Because of money kids. Money kids. Money kids opening for Bad Bridget.
46:00 Karen Kilgariff? And Newsies.
46:01 Georgia Hardstark? At Zebulon this weekend. It sounds like what happened is a parent of another student at Stuyvesant heard about Mo, then passed the story along to his colleagues at the magazine. Just how rumors start and continue.
46:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
46:15 Georgia Hardstark? And then a reporter named Jessica Pressler is assigned to cover the story. So Jessica's story unquestionably categorizes the $72 million figure as a rumor. She's like a journalist. She's not going to be like, it's true.
46:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
46:29 Georgia Hardstark? She writes, quote, "Rumors on Wall Street can be powerful. A whisper can turn into a current that moves markets, driving a stock price up or sending it tumbling. There may only be one other place where gossip holds such sway, and that is high school."
46:43 Karen Kilgariff? High school. I was going to say that. It's so clear that it's like, I heard he made 72 million dollars. 72 million? 70. It sounds like a joke amount.
46:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, because it's absurd.
46:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
46:56 Georgia Hardstark? She writes that Mo is shy about confirming that exact number, but says that his net worth is in the, quote, "high eight figures."
47:04 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
47:05 Georgia Hardstark? End quote. So he's kind of confirming it.
47:07 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
47:08 Georgia Hardstark? In the article, Jessica writes about sitting down with Mo and two of his friends who act as his spokesmen. I think they're a lot more gregarious and outgoing, and Mo's pretty shy. Mo smiles at the reporter, and one of his friends, a boy named Patrick, says, quote, "He's quiet today." And like, they're almost just like talking for him. The other friend, a teen named Damir, adds, quote, "This is our third meeting of the day. We saw a real estate agent, a lawyer, and you." End quote. And Jessica writes that they have a meeting with a hedge fund guy next. So they're like acting like movers and shakers, but they're...
47:44 Karen Kilgariff? But it's like, you're young. It's, you have your whole life to do boring shit like that. Like that idea where it's just like...
47:50 Georgia Hardstark? Like make money?
47:52 Karen Kilgariff? Make money, but also just kind of like, hey, listen, we've got to go meet with a real estate agent. It's like, well, enjoy your meeting.
47:58 Georgia Hardstark? But it's almost like, that's what like 30-somethings will do. And it's like annoying. Like, it makes more sense for a teenager to do it.
48:05 Karen Kilgariff? To like get into where it's like, we're going to spend money.
48:08 Georgia Hardstark? And that, yeah. It's a little less disgusting, but still. The three say that they plan to launch a hedge fund of their own when Mo turns 18, once he's old enough to get a broker-dealer license. So maybe he can deal, but he doesn't, can't get a license. This whole interview takes place at a downtown cafe, where the boys eat caviar and drink cold-pressed apple juice.
48:30 Karen Kilgariff? No.
48:31 Georgia Hardstark? They're babies.
48:32 Karen Kilgariff? What a combo.
48:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. That can't be a...
48:34 Karen Kilgariff? It's really gross.
48:35 Georgia Hardstark? That's disgusting. Mo hints that he's, um, he's shopping for a BMW and apartments. And even though his parents won't let him move out until he's 18. And at the end of the interview, Damir says, quote, "My father has a quote. It's really dope," says the teenager. "You can rob a bank with a gun, but you can rob the whole world with a bank." I kind of fucking love.
48:58 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, shit.
48:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
49:00 Karen Kilgariff? I think we've really learned that here in 2026, that that is
49:03 Georgia Hardstark? You sure have.
49:04 Karen Kilgariff? absolutely not an exaggeration.
49:06 Georgia Hardstark? No. Before the article is published, New York Magazine's fact checkers get in contact with Mo, asking for proof that his claims of an income in the high eight figures is true. The fact checker winds up going down to Stuyvesant so that Mo can provide a bank statement. And Mo gives the magazine what appears to be a Chase bank statement confirming an eight-figure balance. So they did do their due diligence. Due diligence.
49:30 Karen Kilgariff? You can't say that. Not on St. Patrick's Day.
49:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, okay. So many drugs. The day the article is published, it completely blows up. Everyone who sits at a desk in 2014, who spends some of their workday scrolling on Twitter, reads this article, let's say it goes viral.
49:50 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
49:50 Georgia Hardstark? It gets picked up by other outlets. The New York Post, of course, runs the story and puts that $72 million number in the headline, kind of being, you know, they're not the biggest fact checkers of all time, so they're just like
50:02 Karen Kilgariff? Because you said it was like the 20 teens, right?
50:05 Georgia Hardstark? 14, yeah.
50:06 Karen Kilgariff? So it's, people are getting into clickbait.
50:08 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
50:09 Karen Kilgariff? People love a clickbait headline click.
50:11 Georgia Hardstark? Sure do.
50:12 Karen Kilgariff? Doesn't matter if it's true.
50:13 Georgia Hardstark? And it's picked up by many other sites and like kind of then treated as fact in a way.
50:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, I have a little experience with that, as do you.
50:21 Georgia Hardstark? Sure do. But then, pretty quickly, like a bunch of people stop and really think about the details. The return of $72 million in just a couple of years of investing is basically, basically impossible, like not even just unheard of, it's not possible. Business reporters immediately start to have doubts, as Ken Kurson from the New York Observer will later write, quote, "Even if this working-class kid had somehow started with $100,000 as a high school freshman on day one at Stuy, he'd have needed to average a compounded annualized return of something like 796% over the three years since." Then he says, "Come on, man," end quote.
51:05 Georgia Hardstark? So Mo and Damir are invited to appear on CNBC to talk about this, their investment strategy, because they're fucking whiz kids.
51:13 Karen Kilgariff? Hey, man.
51:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. But while they're on their way to the studio, you know, as this story is blowing up, the Business Insider reporter who had featured Mo on the list of the kid investor story calls and starts asking them some follow-up questions, a little late. At this point, Damir confirms to the reporter that that $72 million number is a rumor, but he says, quote, "Pretty sure Mo is a great trader and a genius," end quote.
51:38 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
51:39 Georgia Hardstark? Like, what's it called, dialing it back?
51:42 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yeah, having to walk it back.
51:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, walk it back. The CNBC studios are across the Hudson River in New Jersey, so by the time the boys get there, they're pretty rattled, because clearly, people are on to them. Mo, at first, doesn't want to get out of the car even, which is like, God, I've been there. Eventually, some producers coax the boy into the building, and they're brought to the office of CNBC's editor in chief. Like, so now, adults are, like, asking them more questions, and that, you might get in trouble now.
52:11 Karen Kilgariff? Also, just the idea of coaxing them out of the car.
52:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, no, come on.
52:15 Karen Kilgariff? Where it's just like, "Look, we've got Capri Suns and Atari," or whatever.
52:19 Georgia Hardstark? We have caviar and fresh pressed apple juice.
52:21 Karen Kilgariff? What kind of video games do you like, boys? All the fresh pressed, cold-pressed apple juice you could drink.
52:27 Georgia Hardstark? And this man, who's CNBC's editor in chief, used to be an editor at The Wall Street Journal, so he knows what questions to ask. He starts asking Mo to explain his strategy and say exactly how much money is involved, you know, like, don't throw out rumored numbers. Mo tries his best to answer, and then the guy says, "It isn't 72 million, is it?" And Mo confirms that it is not, and claims that he's made a profit closer to 3 million, which is a lot less than 72 million. Still impressive for a teen.
52:58 Karen Kilgariff? Some would say it's 69 million less. That's what I would say, but...
53:03 Georgia Hardstark? Poor way to say.
53:04 Karen Kilgariff? It is such a hilarious lie.
53:08 Karen Kilgariff? And also, I feel like I remember reading that story when it was a listicle story.
53:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
53:13 Karen Kilgariff? We're just like, what are these kids doing?
53:15 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
53:15 Karen Kilgariff? The kids know what's going on.
53:17 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Maybe I could do it. No, you can't. And then the boys declined to go through with the on-air interview, which is smart. But CNBC reports what they have learned, so the fucking jig is up. That very evening, Damira and Mo, both 17 years old, mind you, hire a crisis PR firm and then head straight from CNBC to their offices, to the crisis PR's office, because they're like, fuck. But like, they never, it's like, they were just kind of nudging this thing along that the adults were all offering them. They were 17 years old and they're like, let's just tell them we did this. Let's tell them we did that. Like, it's kind of funny and let's pretend like we have, you know, this bravado that we don't have.
54:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, like, we're exceptionally successful.
54:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
54:03 Karen Kilgariff? But like, the second you go $72 million on penny stocks.
54:07 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
54:07 Karen Kilgariff? Or whatever. I mean, that's the thing that sticks out to me of like, remember playing penny machines in the casino?
54:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, Buffalo. I think penny machines are like how you get to hang out and, oops, get free drinks all night.
54:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's right. But you probably wouldn't get the jackpot
54:22 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
54:22 Karen Kilgariff? of 72 million off penny stocks.
54:24 Georgia Hardstark? No, you wouldn't. So, once they get this PR firm, they sit down with a reporter from the New York Observer and the whole truth comes out. They tell them, we were lying. That the $3 million profit that Mo claimed later to have is also a lie and that Mohammed has only been placing simulated trades. There's no money at all. But I feel like they were just giving the adults what they were asking for.
54:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
54:49 Georgia Hardstark? You know what I mean?
54:49 Karen Kilgariff? We're extraordinary. We get good grades. We go to this rat school.
54:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
54:53 Karen Kilgariff? We can do anything.
54:54 Georgia Hardstark? We just lied about dumber shit when we were in high school. They lied about something that adults cared about, I guess.
55:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, they like, instead of being like, I'm gonna be at Georgia's house.
55:04 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
55:04 Karen Kilgariff? And then you're like, I'm gonna be at Karen's house. And then the big lie is, we're drinking behind the grocery store.
55:09 Georgia Hardstark? Those aren't my cigarettes. Those are Karen's cigarettes. She asked me to hold them for her.
55:12 Karen Kilgariff? You know how Georgia loves clothes, Mom. She does it every time. I have to hold them.
55:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So he hasn't made any money at all. And Mo does say that if he had been investing money, he would have done really well, but it doesn't.
55:27 Karen Kilgariff? Me too.
55:28 Georgia Hardstark? I know, me too. Mo tells a reporter that his parents are furious with him about his lies. He says, quote, "Honestly, my dad wanted to disown me. My mom basically said she'd never talk to me. Their morals are that if I lie about it and don't own up to it, then they can no longer trust me." He's a fucking teenager. He adds that he's been sleeping over at a friend's house because his parents are so upset with him. He doesn't want to say who, but it seems like Demir is the one. And it seems like they're having a great time and just like being teenagers. And kind of like reveling in this. It's like this thing that keeps moving forward, even though it shouldn't have a long time ago.
56:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, they made themselves a story.
56:08 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
56:09 Karen Kilgariff? And the adults fell for it. And there is a victory in that if you're a 17-year-old in high school.
56:15 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. Like, these fucking, actual, like, business people believed you. Meanwhile, on Twitter, Jessica Pressler, remember the journalist who wrote that original story, saying, not saying it was true, but saying these are the rumors. She defends her story, saying that she saw the bank statement and that The New York Magazine isn't a financial publication anyways. So like, it's not like a Wall Street Journal where the questions would have been asked about the actual earnings. But that's a misstep because Jessica had been hired to work on a new investigations team at Bloomberg, which is a financial publication. And Bloomberg winds up rescinding the job offer. I think she kind of gets some egg on her face from it. But Jessica does stay at New York Magazine
56:59 Georgia Hardstark? and goes on to report some very juicy stories in the future. And she does have a redemption arc. She will later say that she had a funny feeling about the story and asked her editor to check it out before running it, which is what they're supposed to do. And that that didn't happen. New York Magazine changes the headline on the story to take out that $72 million number and adds a note at the top explaining the situation. The note says, quote, "We were duped."
57:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
57:26 Georgia Hardstark? And then, um, Ally wrote a note to me saying, "I was a cub reporter at Bloomberg when all of this was happening."
57:32 Karen Kilgariff? Whoa.
57:33 Georgia Hardstark? Ally, my fucking incredible researcher.
57:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
57:36 Georgia Hardstark? There was a, she said, "There was a commotion. Jessica Pressler does fine in the end. She writes the article that becomes the basis for the movie Hustlers."
57:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
57:45 Georgia Hardstark? Right?
57:46 Karen Kilgariff? Fuck, yeah.
57:47 Georgia Hardstark? And later winds up reporting the Anna Delvey story.
57:50 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
57:50 Georgia Hardstark? So she does OK.
57:51 Karen Kilgariff? She is fine.
57:52 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, she like proves herself.
57:53 Karen Kilgariff? Well, and I think, doesn't that kind of point back to, that's the kind of journalism, like you were saying, it's not finance journalism. It's grabby.
58:01 Georgia Hardstark? Personality based.
58:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, it's very internet-y, like, can you believe this is real, whatever?
58:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
58:07 Karen Kilgariff? And that is like, it's almost like a human interest of, did you even know there was a person like this?
58:12 Georgia Hardstark? Right, right. So the New York Observer reporter, Ken Kurson, wraps up his article like this, quote, "No one asked for my opinion, but I'm gonna provide it anyway." Love that.
58:22 Karen Kilgariff? Cool.
58:23 Georgia Hardstark? Having sat with these kids for a good bit on a tough day, they got carried away. They're not children, but they're not quite adults either. And at least Mr. Islam was literally quaking as we spoke. So I feel like his like boisterous friends were like, you know, say it, say it. And like, it just, it just became bigger than it was supposed to. And it just so happened that they were in fucking Manhattan, and so it became huge.
58:48 Karen Kilgariff? Also, don't you think that not, his name is Mo. Mo's friend, there's one guy in there, and you know the type. And he's Mr. Big Personality, he's the personality hire.
58:59 Georgia Hardstark? He's so fun.
59:00 Karen Kilgariff? Energy, energy, energy, ideas, ideas, good times.
59:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, he's the rumor, he's spread that rumor, I bet.
59:06 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yes.
59:06 Georgia Hardstark? Like, you know what my friend did? You know what my friend, like?
59:08 Karen Kilgariff? You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna eat fucking caviar and apple juice all day. Do you wanna come with us? Like, there's that where the guy that has the goods.
59:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
59:16 Karen Kilgariff? They're like, we're gonna do a bunch of stuff because of you.
59:18 Georgia Hardstark? You're our smartest friend. We're gonna spread a rumor about you.
59:21 Karen Kilgariff? I'm the loudest friend.
59:22 Georgia Hardstark? I'm the loudest, you're the smartest.
59:24 Karen Kilgariff? Let's do this.
59:24 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
59:25 Karen Kilgariff? Now, there's a third guy, because there's always a third guy.
59:27 Georgia Hardstark? Always. So yeah, they should have known better. Uh, but New York and the New York Post probably should have as well. This story smelled fishy the instant it appeared and a quick dance with a calculator probably would have saved these young men and a couple of reporters some embarrassment. End quote.
59:43 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's his quote. A quick dance with a calculator is such a funny way to say it.
59:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I know. That's a part of Ken's quote. Um, and that is the story of a rumor that swept the halls of Stuyvesant High School and briefly fooled the world, or at least some of the world, story of Mohammed Islam.
1:00:01 Karen Kilgariff? As you were kind of like wrapping it down, it's like, these are kids at an incredibly competitive high school.
1:00:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:09 Karen Kilgariff? We're excelling.
1:00:10 Georgia Hardstark? At anything.
1:00:11 Karen Kilgariff? You have to do it and you're used to being top three in your class. Now you're bottom 20.
1:00:18 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:00:18 Karen Kilgariff? It makes sense that you'd be, well, maybe this will make me special. Maybe this will make me stand out.
1:00:22 Georgia Hardstark? Let me spread this rumor. It goes a little too far.
1:00:25 Karen Kilgariff? We got money, baby.
1:00:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:27 Karen Kilgariff? We're getting invited to parties.
1:00:28 Georgia Hardstark? My parents are mad at me. Oh, shit.
1:00:30 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I have to talk to a reporter and it's making me shake.
1:00:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but I'm bringing my friend, so he's gonna do it.
1:00:37 Karen Kilgariff? He's gonna mouth off.
1:00:41 Karen Kilgariff? There's your podcast right there.
1:00:43 Georgia Hardstark? There you go.
1:00:44 Karen Kilgariff? There it is.
1:00:45 Georgia Hardstark? Well, thank you and, um, for listening, everyone, and thank you for, you know, St. Patrick.
1:00:51 Karen Kilgariff? Do you think, um, maybe we thank St. Patrick for getting rid of all the snakes?
1:00:55 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's what he did, right?
1:00:56 Karen Kilgariff? I think so.
1:00:57 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, well, Vince will like that. He hates snakes.
1:00:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, he should go over there.
1:01:00 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, I'm wearing green.
1:01:01 Karen Kilgariff? Celebrate. Me too. I couldn't believe, I found this. The green I had on was such a non-green color and I was like, oh, I don't really have anything. And then all of a sudden I look over and I was like.
1:01:12 Georgia Hardstark? You have to, yeah, you have to wear it.
1:01:14 Karen Kilgariff? Have to represent.
1:01:15 Georgia Hardstark? Definitely. Well, you did it and thanks for representing here, everyone. We appreciate you guys listening.
1:01:20 Karen Kilgariff? Hey, and just remember, you can do anything if you have two sisters, uh, along with you. Cause that's really the, that's the magic of all of this. Am I right?
1:01:28 Georgia Hardstark? You are.
1:01:30 Karen Kilgariff? Stay sexy.
1:01:30 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
1:01:32 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:01:42 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right production.
1:01:44 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.
1:01:47 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Lassaveto.
1:01:49 Georgia Hardstark? This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.
1:01:51 Karen Kilgariff? Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.
1:01:54 Georgia Hardstark? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:01:57 Karen Kilgariff? And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:02:00 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:02:05 Karen Kilgariff? And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.
1:02:07 Georgia Hardstark? And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.
1:02:13 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:02:17 Karen Kilgariff? Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.
1:02:21 Georgia Hardstark? Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.
1:02:29 Karen Kilgariff? As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.
1:02:45 Georgia Hardstark? All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.
1:02:48 Karen Kilgariff? Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.
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