Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 522 - Live at the Paramount Theatre (Denver Night 2) About this episode Live at Denver’s Paramount Theatre, Karen covers female reporter Polly Pry and Georgia tells the story of the Stanley Hotel.
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Transcript 14,961 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This is exactly right.
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0:35 Speaker 02 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
2:00 Georgia Hardstark? What's up, Denver?
2:07 Karen Kilgariff? My god, we are gonna need hearing aids after this city, I swear to god.
2:13 Georgia Hardstark? I always forget that's gonna happen until I start walking on stage and then it surprises me every time. Wow.
2:23 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
2:29 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you guys for being here. Oh my god, Denver, this has been real.
2:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, thanks for being so patient these six years and waiting for us to come back. We really appreciate that.
2:44 Georgia Hardstark? We do. I'm really mad, though, because
2:48 Georgia Hardstark? she has a sign and she's not wrong.
2:50 Karen Kilgariff? What's it say?
2:51 Georgia Hardstark? It says, "Georgia, you promised air guitar."
2:57 Georgia Hardstark? Do you remember?
2:58 Karen Kilgariff? No.
2:59 Georgia Hardstark? I said, "If we ever go back on tour, I'll do air guitar."
3:02 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
3:03 Georgia Hardstark? But I need music, but I need but I need music.
3:06 Karen Kilgariff? Here, wait, I'll do it.
3:06 Georgia Hardstark? Vince.
3:14 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. Not the worst.
3:17 Karen Kilgariff? She clearly didn't think we were ever gonna come back on stage. I think that's what we can interpret from that.
3:22 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I'm gonna barf, that was she said air guitar to nothing onstage, and that's what we do here.
3:29 Karen Kilgariff? And that's what we do.
3:32 Georgia Hardstark? So last night, was anyone here last night?
3:36 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you, front row, the rest of you. I don't know, the rest of them were at Lincoln Park.
3:41 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you assholes.
3:43 Georgia Hardstark? We know.
3:44 Karen Kilgariff? We know what you're like, back there.
3:47 Georgia Hardstark? Last night was fun because we forgot how to do this. It was our first night back in six years.
3:53 Karen Kilgariff? We just kept calling line, line, over and over, no one had the script in hand. It was terrible.
4:00 Georgia Hardstark? We forgot the basics, but tonight is gonna be fucking like
4:08 Karen Kilgariff? Oh. Like, this is the podcast My Favorite Murder.
4:12 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
4:13 Karen Kilgariff? There's one of them.
4:16 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilgariff.
4:17 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hardstark.
4:21 Georgia Hardstark? We literally forgot to do that last night.
4:23 Karen Kilgariff? Didn't do it.
4:24 Georgia Hardstark? Like, we literally forgot to introduce ourselves.
4:26 Karen Kilgariff? Simply didn't introduce ourselves or the show, like, true show business professionals. It was...
4:33 Georgia Hardstark? But you know what did happen is a moth, like, flew out of my dress and just hung out on stage all night.
4:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:40 Georgia Hardstark? It was pretty special.
4:42 Karen Kilgariff? The moth was the third lead of the show last night. And then we found out that you guys love moths here, apparently.
4:50 Georgia Hardstark? Crazy. They're good luck, right? Why doesn't anyone ever... like, I'm the only person who knows that. I made it up.
4:58 Karen Kilgariff? She made it up.
4:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:59 Karen Kilgariff? That's that thing with when you're the only person that knows something, because you're just lying.
5:04 Georgia Hardstark? You might have been lying.
5:06 Karen Kilgariff? Moths are good luck, like in Silence of the Lambs.
5:11 Georgia Hardstark? You know that fairy tale movie, Silence of the Lambs?
5:14 Karen Kilgariff? Lambs? Someone made a bracelet for us last night that said, "May I use your phone, please?"
5:21 Georgia Hardstark? If you know, you know. Right?
5:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:24 Georgia Hardstark? And you went to a baseball game, right?
5:27 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, the first day I was here.
5:32 Karen Kilgariff? We... my sister, who's very bossy, told me that I had to go to the Rocky Stadium and see what was going on over there. Just so happened they were playing the young San Franciscans... I know it's probably called something else, but this isn't about correct details. I hope you know that. So they were playing the young San Francisco Giants, where I'm from. So it was just like, you know, all good, and then...
5:59 Georgia Hardstark? Except there was a fight in the crowd, right?
6:01 Karen Kilgariff? I know. Even better.
6:02 Georgia Hardstark? I didn't think it was that good.
6:04 Karen Kilgariff? Come on.
6:04 Georgia Hardstark? Was it you? Did she start that?
6:06 Karen Kilgariff? It was me. I went down there, I was like, "Why don't you guys act more like hockey players?" And they were like, "Fine." And then they did. No, it was gorgeous. It was beautiful, the sunset. I was like, "Yeah, I get it. I get Denver."
6:18 Georgia Hardstark? You get sports. Oh, Denver, yes, for sure.
6:21 Karen Kilgariff? Sports here, like, we stood there for half an hour, kind of looked around, and we were like, "Gorgeous, okay, here we go. We'll find out the score later." And what have you been doing?
6:31 Georgia Hardstark? Uh, I went to a vintage store yesterday, because you have to, and I found this literal fucking dress, there. Thank you. It's called-
6:40 Karen Kilgariff? Do you want to take a pass?
6:41 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, thank you.
6:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, just go ahead and show everybody. Aw. Look at her go.
6:47 Georgia Hardstark? No pockets, because vintage doesn't really do that.
6:50 Karen Kilgariff? They won't do it.
6:51 Georgia Hardstark? They're so like, "Women don't need pockets, they need a handbag." You know, fuck you. It's called, it was called, I just said the name.
7:00 Karen Kilgariff? Bombshell.
7:00 Georgia Hardstark? Bombshell, thank you. Bombshell Vintage. Very fucking awesome store.
7:04 Karen Kilgariff? Promo code murder.
7:07 Georgia Hardstark? Um, oh, I forgot my ring. Shit. Well, show's over.
7:10 Karen Kilgariff? Wait.
7:13 Georgia Hardstark? Goldmine. It was called Goldmine.
7:14 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, shit.
7:16 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you, Vince.
7:18 Karen Kilgariff? Is, should Vince come out and just say hi for one second?
7:25 Karen Kilgariff? There he is, right there.
7:31 Karen Kilgariff? There he is.
7:32 Georgia Hardstark? My husband. Thank you. Thank you.
7:36 Karen Kilgariff? We decided that's our new thing for this tour, is we're gonna do a lot of this at each other.
7:41 Georgia Hardstark? Everybody loves that.
7:42 Karen Kilgariff? Kind of phony.
7:43 Georgia Hardstark? Because we're so humble.
7:44 Karen Kilgariff? You know?
7:45 Georgia Hardstark? You guys know that about us.
7:47 Karen Kilgariff? Bless and blessed be and bless you.
7:50 Georgia Hardstark? This is a Christian true crime comedy. No, it's fucking not.
7:54 Karen Kilgariff? That's the reveal. In these six years, we have married Christ and dedicated our lives.
8:00 Georgia Hardstark? Phew, you came to the wrong show.
8:04 Georgia Hardstark? Um, what else?
8:05 Karen Kilgariff? Also, I'll show my dress.
8:07 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, show your dress. I'm sorry.
8:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
8:15 Georgia Hardstark? Pockets?
8:16 Karen Kilgariff? Pockies.
8:17 Georgia Hardstark? What'd you have in there?
8:18 Karen Kilgariff? A little lip gloss, in case my mouth gets so dry that my lips stick to my teeth.
8:23 Georgia Hardstark? Showbiz, baby. Cool. Well, I forgot to put the Kleenex in my Spanx tonight, so my nose is just gonna free run for the whole show.
8:34 Karen Kilgariff? Let it go. It's your show.
8:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
8:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
8:37 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I found out that nervous nose running is a thing. So that's what I have.
8:43 Karen Kilgariff? NNR?
8:44 Georgia Hardstark? With everything fucking else that I have.
8:45 Karen Kilgariff? You're suffering from NNR? That's terrible. So sorry.
8:49 Georgia Hardstark? You don't have to suffer alone.
8:51 Karen Kilgariff? If you suffer from NNR, or someone in your family does.
8:56 Georgia Hardstark? I might need a tissue, Vince. I'm sorry.
9:00 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
9:01 Karen Kilgariff? We just keep making him come out over and over. That's the new bit. That's the new act.
9:06 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god, never mind. She has a hole in the back.
9:08 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, we're good. Thank you so much. Classy. Very classy. Thank you.
9:13 Georgia Hardstark? Angel, thank you.
9:15 Karen Kilgariff? See? See how it is?
9:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god. I almost stuck that sticker, the open ear on my chest, because that's what I do when I eat an apple. I put the sticker on myself.
9:28 Karen Kilgariff? Aw, thanks, Vince. He's clearly not watching the show backstage.
9:34 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
9:34 Karen Kilgariff? Just kidding, just kidding.
9:36 Georgia Hardstark? I thought you guys were really upset about my apple eating. No.
9:40 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, wait a second. I think we do have to talk about the hometowns from last night.
9:47 Karen Kilgariff? Look, some of you were there and you know. We just want to talk about how it was for us. First of all, a woman named Katie sat front and center, dressed as a hot dog.
9:59 Karen Kilgariff? And we were like, this is the best. And then we're like, great, you can be the audience ambassador and teach us how to pronounce everything that we're gonna mispronounce in this town. And she's like, I'm not from here. We're like, fuck you, Katie.
10:11 Georgia Hardstark? And then, when we met her later, she was like, I really thought a lot more people would dress like hot dogs.
10:18 Karen Kilgariff? She thought it was gonna be-
10:18 Georgia Hardstark? Her heart!
10:19 Karen Kilgariff? Like, we're a hot dog cosplay live podcast comedy show?
10:24 Georgia Hardstark? Hell yeah. Christian cosplay, hot dog. Thank you.
10:27 Karen Kilgariff? So many corners to touch.
10:30 Georgia Hardstark? Negotiate.
10:32 Karen Kilgariff? But, this was my favorite. This truly is, it's a misunderstanding. We didn't, truly, we didn't know our lines. So when it came to the part where we're supposed to tell people like, "Hey, here's the rules for hometowns. People want you to do it local, you know, don't take too long, blah blah blah." And we didn't say any of that. We were just like, "Get up here and tell your hometown." And so, the first person, her name was Katie also, I think, if I'm-
10:56 Georgia Hardstark? I have no fucking clue, but, okay.
10:57 Karen Kilgariff? I could just be like, "Look, everyone's name Katie." But she came up, and we were like, "Hi, what's your name?" And she's like, "Katie." And we're like, "Where are you from?" And she's like, "Broward, Florida." And the entire audience starts booing. "Don't do it again! Don't do it again!"
11:14 Georgia Hardstark? We didn't say, it was totally on us. Like, we didn't say-
11:17 Karen Kilgariff? What's on them too? This is not Linkin Park, for fucks sake. Be nice. I don't have to be nice. You have to be nice. But, she basically said, "Broward, Florida," and then stood there smiling. And we're just like-
11:30 Georgia Hardstark? And we go, "What's your hometown?"
11:32 Karen Kilgariff? And she was like, "Broward, Florida." And we're like, "Thanks so much." And she walked off the stage.
11:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
11:39 Karen Kilgariff? But then later, we met her in the VIP, and she was like, "Oh no, I had a story. I just got scared and left the stage." See what I mean, about what you did?
11:49 Georgia Hardstark? So here's, actually, here's a good tip. If you really want to do a hometown, stop drinking now.
11:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
11:55 Georgia Hardstark? Because it's scary up here, and being shitfaced does not help with it. Or a little. I guess it does a little bit. I don't know.
12:01 Karen Kilgariff? And, if you really want to do a hometown, and you can't stop drinking now, you're an alcoholic. So...
12:09 Karen Kilgariff? There's a lot to get from this show tonight. A lot to glean from the show.
12:15 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, shall we sit down?
12:16 Karen Kilgariff? I guess so.
12:21 Georgia Hardstark? Thanks.
12:22 Karen Kilgariff? Georgia did remember that line last night. That was a huge relief.
12:25 Georgia Hardstark? I sure did.
12:26 Karen Kilgariff? We need to sit.
12:29 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, okay.
12:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, let's cheer for the logo.
12:34 Karen Kilgariff? Designed by Georgia Hart Stark. Does everybody know that?
12:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but like the Notes app or something. It was saying in 2016?
12:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
12:45 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, something like this. Okay.
12:47 Karen Kilgariff? Georgia's like, "Do you want this to be the logo?"
12:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
12:49 Karen Kilgariff? And I'm like, "Do you want this to be the theme song?" And she's like, "Yes." And I'm like, "All right, let's do this thing. We'll quit in three weeks."
12:56 Georgia Hardstark? And we did.
12:59 Georgia Hardstark? Do you want to tell them about this podcast a little bit?
13:01 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, this is a true crime comedy podcast.
13:06 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
13:07 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you. Some people don't like that combination. They don't like the idea. They get very sensitive about it. So we do want to tell you that the reason that we do this podcast is because we have loved true crime since we were young because we were incredibly traumatized by our childhoods. And one of the ways that we deal with our trauma is through humor and comedy, and the other way is by reading a lot of true crime. And we found that combination to be very satisfying when we met each other.
13:37 Georgia Hardstark? Pathetic even, you'd say.
13:39 Karen Kilgariff? I would say.
13:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
13:40 Karen Kilgariff? And so, we know that there are people who would argue or maybe have other things to say, and what we would like to say is, "Get the fuck out right now."
13:54 Karen Kilgariff? It'd be so fun if like the entire first three rows were like, "We're gone."
13:59 Georgia Hardstark? Someday. Someday it's like the bus from the senior center accidentally stopped here and it's just like a whole fucking row of grandmas.
14:07 Karen Kilgariff? You're just like, "But that happened in Florida. Remember the live show in..."
14:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
14:11 Karen Kilgariff? "We had a live show in Florida." Stop booing Broward, Florida.
14:16 Karen Kilgariff? We had this live show in Florida and there were these two women who were older and they were all dressed up and very fancy looking but total someone's fancy grandmas. And I couldn't stop looking at them the whole time where I'm like, "Whose fancy grandmas are these that are here at our live show in Florida?" And we met them afterwards and they were season ticket holders that were like, "What's this?" And they fucking came to this swear fest murder fucking show where we were like, "Oh my god."
14:44 Georgia Hardstark? But did we win them over? We sure fucking did. They are our listeners now.
14:50 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we did.
14:50 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, so if you don't like it, there are grandmas better than you out there.
14:55 Karen Kilgariff? In Florida, for fuck's sake.
14:57 Georgia Hardstark? In fucking Florida, so like, you have no excuse.
14:59 Karen Kilgariff? Can you imagine?
15:00 Georgia Hardstark? I might be mean tonight.
15:02 Karen Kilgariff? I'm not sure. We are working through a lot of emotions. It's so exciting to be here tonight. It is so exciting.
15:11 Karen Kilgariff? It really is.
15:12 Georgia Hardstark? It is. I think you're first tonight.
15:15 Karen Kilgariff? I am.
15:15 Georgia Hardstark? I double-checked.
15:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah.
15:17 Georgia Hardstark? And then I said to Molly, "We should really have that in the header of our, like, when they print the stories." And she goes, "Mm-hmm, it's there."
15:24 Karen Kilgariff? It's there, yeah. Just read the fucking paper.
15:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I'm like, "You are fucking smart, but you should probably tell us anyways."
15:31 Karen Kilgariff? Love working with you. Love working with you. Oh, and Molly also sent us all of our lines.
15:39 Georgia Hardstark? That was a little, that's a little passive-aggressive of her.
15:43 Karen Kilgariff? "What are you wearing tonight, Karen?"
15:47 Georgia Hardstark? It says, "What's up, city?"
15:49 Karen Kilgariff? "What's up, city?"
15:51 Georgia Hardstark? I think we got that one.
15:54 Georgia Hardstark? At least I'm not having a hot flash tonight. I literally had a hot flash onstage last night.
15:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you better. You gotta represent the peri and the menopausal.
16:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:04 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
16:05 Georgia Hardstark? When I was at lunch today, Vince and I were at this bar, and, because of course we were, and two seats down, I just hear out of the corner of my ear...
16:13 Karen Kilgariff? Corner of your ear, absolutely.
16:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I think I hear, "Oh, a hot flash." And I turn and look, and she's taking a little portable fan out of her purse, and I just, like, we bonded. I was like, "Did you just say hot flash?" She's like, "I did," and just... Brilliant. Anyway, Karen, you're first tonight.
16:33 Karen Kilgariff? Anytime you have a story like that, please jump in.
16:38 Karen Kilgariff? All right.
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18:24 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
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19:09 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
19:12 Karen Kilgariff? So, maybe some of you were here when we played the Belko Theater in 2019.
19:21 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you, that was an awesome show.
19:22 Karen Kilgariff? God, these are all my cousins.
19:26 Karen Kilgariff? So that night when we played the Belko, and sorry to keep on mentioning the rival theater, Paramount, but I told the story of the Colorado cannibal Alfred Packer.
19:39 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you so much, I agree.
19:43 Karen Kilgariff? So, really quick before I get into my story, which is not that story, but I'm gonna just refresh you about that story, because it is a part of this current news story, if you understand what I'm saying. Do you?
19:58 Georgia Hardstark? I'm there, I'm here.
19:59 Karen Kilgariff? I'm gonna focus more on you, I think it'll help more.
20:02 Georgia Hardstark? Tell me the story.
20:03 Karen Kilgariff? It's your thing more than...
20:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. They're all drag along.
20:08 Karen Kilgariff? We didn't talk about the drag alongs. We didn't. It's supposed to go at the top of the speech about get the fuck out, but it's fine.
20:13 Georgia Hardstark? Molly was right about the notes, okay.
20:16 Karen Kilgariff? She's like, "If you could just read them quickly before you walk onstage." And we're like, "No, no, we'll read them onstage after we forget them."
20:25 Karen Kilgariff? It's the new show business.
20:28 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so, back in February of 1874, Alfred Packer was one of six gold miner, or prospectors, I think is more accurate. And they got lost in the San Juan Mountains during one of the worst winter storms Colorado had ever seen. When the storm lets up, Alfred is the only survivor. He walks into the Indian Agency, claiming that the rest of the group left him behind when his feet became frozen. Mean.
21:01 Karen Kilgariff? He says he doesn't know where they are. But authorities start to get suspicious about him when Alfred, who was known to be penniless, buys a horse and a saddle and starts drinking and playing a lot of cards in the saloon.
21:15 Georgia Hardstark? He doesn't just eat them, he steals from them. Like, that's not cool.
21:19 Karen Kilgariff? It's so gross. So, they start questioning him further, and that's when he admits that he did eat the other five people in that party. But he's basically, the whole story was, "I was lost for a month, it was pure desperation." He tells the whole story. Unfortunately, a little while later, an illustrator from Harper's Bazaar magazine is out here figuring out what the Wild West is about, and he comes upon five dead bodies that are lined up on a riverbank, and they've all been smashed in the head with a hatchet, and one of them is decapitated. And that those are the rest of the party Alfred Packer was traveling with.
22:02 Karen Kilgariff? So, his story suddenly comes into question.
22:06 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to me gasping, even though I was definitely there for the story.
22:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
22:10 Georgia Hardstark? I don't remember it.
22:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's all new. Yeah, that's the fun of this. So, he's arrested, tried, found guilty on five counts of voluntary manslaughter, sentenced to 40 years in prison, which is a huge sentence back then. He files appeal after appeal with the help of a friend, but they're all denied. In 1901, he gets paroled. It's less than halfway through his sentence. So today, I'm gonna tell you about that friend that helped Alfred Packer, take two. Alfred Packer, the Colorado cannibal, yep, go free from jail. This person was not a lawyer, not a politician. She was a gossip writer turned investigative journalist who made her name writing stories
22:54 Karen Kilgariff? that earned her both respect and infamy. And she was the first female reporter that the Denver Post ever hired. You might know her by her, you might know her by her pen name Polly Pry. This is the life story of Nell Campbell.
23:12 Karen Kilgariff? Hell yeah, right?
23:15 Georgia Hardstark? Great, great job.
23:16 Karen Kilgariff? The sources that were used in this story today are a book by Julia Bricklin called "The Woman Who Wrote the West." And there's around Polly Pry and Nell Campbell, there's a lot of mythologizing, of course, when it's like old history like that, and she herself was kind of a sensational journalist for some part of her career. And Julia Bricklin gets in there and basically separates all the fact from fiction and is amazing. That's all from Marin. I have not read this book. I don't, stolen valor, I didn't read the book. There's also an article from Colorado Life Magazine by Matt Masich, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes. You can go check those. I guess in...
24:01 Georgia Hardstark? You guys love show notes.
24:02 Karen Kilgariff? Show notes.
24:03 Georgia Hardstark? It's your favorite thing.
24:04 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so here we go. Leonel Campbell, nicknamed Nell, is born November 27, 1859, in Clinton, Illinois. She's said to have lied about her birthday to everyone for her whole life, but Julia Bricklin verifies that this is actually her real birthday.
24:21 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
24:22 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you, Julia. Nell's parents are relatively wealthy, wealthy enough that she is educated at a private boarding school. That's rich.
24:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
24:31 Karen Kilgariff? But it's back in a time where women are expected to blend in, and Nell very much stands out. She's very striking. Now, this was a funny experience for me today when I was going over all this. She's very striking. Her looks are described as kind of an alien-ish beauty that supermodels have.
24:52 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
24:53 Karen Kilgariff? She has a symmetrical face with a mix of classically feminine and masculine features with a prominent jaw and oversized, piercing, cat-like eyes. Can we take a look at Nell?
25:02 Georgia Hardstark? I can't imagine. All right. Look at her gazing off.
25:08 Karen Kilgariff? That literally looks like my grandma in a nightgown.
25:10 Georgia Hardstark? [laughing]
25:12 Karen Kilgariff? Who was alien, supermodel-like her whole life.
25:17 Georgia Hardstark? I love the outfit. I almost wore that.
25:19 Karen Kilgariff? I mean... That is, she is Christmas tree-coated right now, isn't she?
25:26 Karen Kilgariff? So, she also has a tendency to literally do whatever she wants at all times. She does not care about societal conventions, one of us, one of us, one of us.
25:37 Karen Kilgariff? For example, she poses for this incredibly controversial photograph. If you are under 18, please cover your eyes and pray to your chosen god. Let's take a look. Oh, oh my god!
25:50 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck! That is gorgeous.
25:54 Karen Kilgariff? Slut!
25:58 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god, that's the rug from tonight, too.
26:04 Karen Kilgariff? So, okay, thank you. So, in her relationship with her first husband, George Henry Anthony Jr., you know there's a problem when he has three first names.
26:14 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely.
26:14 Karen Kilgariff? It happened every single time.
26:18 Karen Kilgariff? We don't know how the first two, we don't know how they met. Nell's flair for drama and exaggeration makes it very hard to pin down. For example, she claims that she was just a teenager when she met him, and that he was in his 50s, but actually, in reality, she was in her mid-20s, and he was almost 30.
26:37 Georgia Hardstark? What a weird brag, right?
26:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, she's like, "Well, that old man snapped me right up."
26:42 Georgia Hardstark? "I was a child."
26:43 Karen Kilgariff? Just, just a child.
26:47 Karen Kilgariff? The thing about it, though, is he was a married father of two.
26:51 Karen Kilgariff? No, that's a big no. When, when his wife finds out, of course, she gives him the boot. She files for divorce, which is very scandalous at the time, it's 1883. George and Nell then marry a few months afterwards in St. Louis. And so, this story is not, someone cheered for St. Louis. This story, yeah, you can. This story is not about George Anthony, Henry Anthony Jr., but it's worth it to digress to talk about him, because he is kind of the worst.
27:21 Karen Kilgariff? He's also, he's a bum husband, he's a bum father. He's also a nepo baby. He's the son of the seventh senator of, oh, sorry, the seventh governor of Kansas. And his success in life is fully just brought to him by his rich father, who helps him get one prestigious job after another. So when he's in his late twenties, he's given a job at Leavenworth Prison, replacing an experienced employee, already holding the post. It's so baffling that the local newspaper actually reports, quote, "To take away a man of experience and judgment and put in a white-headed boy seems like a folly."
28:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, don't fuck around in a prison with employees, right? Like, that's the wrong, go to a bank and fuck around.
28:09 Karen Kilgariff? It's not very nepo baby to get, go to Leavenworth and be like, "I'd love to spend a lot of time here." Then in the mid 1880s, he's handed yet another high-paying gig, which he has no business doing, which is working on the Mexican Central Railroad. He leaves that job then to start a lumber company with his father and go cut down Mexican forests, just bad after bad. He and Nell move from Mexico to Texas to Kansas City. And the whole time, sure, the whole time, Nell plays the role of a rich housewife. She throws parties and entertains guests and she keeps up appearances. But after four years, she gets bored and she's done.
28:52 Karen Kilgariff? So the marriage is on the rocks and she files for divorce scandal.
28:59 Karen Kilgariff? George goes crawling back to his ex-wife after this.
29:03 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, come on, dude.
29:04 Karen Kilgariff? Four years, four years. While Nell ditches high society and heads to New York City with all of her cash, jewelry, and expensive furs. But as we all know, New York's a very expensive town. So she burns through that cash right quick. And this is before alimony or spousal support. So obviously, her role at this time in America would be to find another rich guy to marry. But she's done with that life. She wants to earn a living as a songwriter and actress.
29:37 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, that sounds pretty sweet.
29:39 Karen Kilgariff? Honey.
29:40 Georgia Hardstark? Honey.
29:41 Karen Kilgariff? Honey. So she finds and befriends a very creative group of New York writers and editors and publishers, and they recognize that Nell actually does have something very special about her. She's fiery, she's smart, and she is not easily intimidated by other people.
29:58 Karen Kilgariff? So she's offered assignments with their newspapers, like the New York Herald and the New York Journal, but it's mostly gossip columnists and society reporting. But it turns out Nell's made for that job. She has this amazing ability to get people talking and telling stories, and that gets her the nickname Polly Pry.
30:19 Georgia Hardstark? What is it, Polly Pry?
30:21 Karen Kilgariff? Pry like you're crying the story.
30:22 Georgia Hardstark? She just gets them shitfaced, I bet.
30:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Right?
30:25 Georgia Hardstark? That's the way to do it.
30:27 Karen Kilgariff? Like, two compliments, three shots, now you're telling me everything about your life.
30:31 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
30:32 Karen Kilgariff? And you might remember, I covered the story of Nellie Bly, who was the female reporter.
30:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:38 Karen Kilgariff? Her real name was Elizabeth Cochran, and she's the one that went into the insane asylum and basically exposed how horrible that New York City insane asylum was.
30:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:48 Karen Kilgariff? So basically, people think that Polly Pry is like a little play on Nellie Bly.
30:53 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
30:53 Karen Kilgariff? Because that was 10 years before
30:55 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
30:56 Karen Kilgariff? this time. Just trying to put it in a timeline based on all the stories I've done on this podcast. And nothing else. So now it's the 1890s, and Nell is in her mid-30s. So she has a big family. Two of her younger brothers have tuberculosis, and so her family moves to Colorado because the air is apparently very dry here.
31:19 Georgia Hardstark? Good job, you guys.
31:20 Karen Kilgariff? And filled with mobs.
31:24 Karen Kilgariff? So after one of these younger brothers dies from the disease, Nell decides she's going to leave New York City and come to Denver to be with her family. So after about a year, she is on a train, and she sits across from this man that she doesn't know, who is old-fashioned style, holding up a newspaper that he's reading.
31:44 Georgia Hardstark? No, he isn't.
31:46 Karen Kilgariff? It just doesn't happen anymore. Unless you're trying to hide from the cops. So she sees that this newspaper had done their headlines in red, and she goes, "How awful." And the owner of the newspaper is the guy holding the newspaper, yes, that's right.
32:03 Georgia Hardstark? You just insult people by opening your mouth is a fun thing to do.
32:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
32:06 Georgia Hardstark? I do it all the time.
32:07 Karen Kilgariff? The story of my life, yes. I didn't mean it like that. So this man is Frederick Gilmer Balfi, and he is the co-owner of the Denver Evening Post, which is now the Denver Post. And it is Colorado's newspaper of record. So Nell, who, of course, Nell's very embarrassed, but she's no stranger to putting her foot in her mouth, and she's very good at charming people. And basically, she recovers, she charms Frederick, he invites her to dinner, they go eat in the dining car, they have this wonderful meal, and essentially, it goes so well that by the end, he offers her a job.
32:47 Georgia Hardstark? Hell, yeah.
32:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And so, so bad things happen, and then you can get a job after. Just believe. Believe that if you insult men enough, they'll give you a job. Yeah.
33:01 Georgia Hardstark? They love it.
33:02 Karen Kilgariff? So it works. So, at this point in Denver history, the city's population is booming, and there is a serious competition between the local newspapers for readers. So Frederick and his business partner, Harry Taman, they really want to win the Colorado newspaper wars. Let me take a look at Harry and Frederick. Ugh. Supermodels, alien-like in their beauty.
33:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. They look rich.
33:32 Karen Kilgariff? Doesn't it look like he just pulled that mustache out of his pocket?
33:36 Georgia Hardstark? It was just a bunch of moths. It could land it on his face.
33:40 Karen Kilgariff? This moth problem is really a problem. And they all fly away. Oh, it's one big one.
33:48 Karen Kilgariff? Anyway.
33:51 Karen Kilgariff? So fortunately for them, they have a real edge in the newspaper wars because they've just hired good old Nell Campbell, Polly Pry, who pulls no punches. So the Denver Post is primed for victory. And right off the bat, Nell's first interview makes waves. It's with a political candidate who's running for senator, and Nell makes no bones about how she feels about this man. She writes, quote, "If tones could freeze, the marrow in my bones would have congealed then and there. The voice of the would-be senator was so icily unfriendly."
34:25 Georgia Hardstark? Wow. How would you say that?
34:28 Karen Kilgariff? Ding. What a dick.
34:32 Karen Kilgariff? Fucking dick. She also describes him as, quote, "tall, thin, nervous, and irritable, with a harsh voice and cold gray eyes."
34:44 Karen Kilgariff? And she also goes on to warn the public that if he wins a senate race, political cartoonists will have a field day with him.
34:49 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
34:51 Karen Kilgariff? Damn.
34:52 Georgia Hardstark? All right.
34:53 Karen Kilgariff? And you're just like this skinny nervous guy that's like, "God damn it."
34:57 Georgia Hardstark? Just trying to make a living.
34:59 Karen Kilgariff? Why did I talk to that goddamn woman?
35:04 Karen Kilgariff? Author Julia Bricklin writes, quote, no, sorry, it's not a quote yet, that Nell now begins to gravitate toward exposing, quote, "those she considered particularly out of touch with progressive politics, hypocritical, right, or entitled, or perhaps all of these things." So she's after it. She's doing it. She is holding their feet to the fire in a time where women, and don't hold me to this because I'm not sure, but I don't think they could vote yet. Pretty fucking sure that we couldn't. Here come the emails explaining to me how dumb I am.
35:42 Karen Kilgariff? But Nell is fearless in her reporting. She publishes hit pieces on reverends, on city officials, even Colorado socialites, like the famous philanthropist and Titanic survivor, the unsinkable Molly Brown.
35:58 Georgia Hardstark? She goes after Molly?
35:59 Karen Kilgariff? She goes fucking after an unkillable socialite.
36:04 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
36:05 Karen Kilgariff? But despite that, she actually calls her, in one of her columns, quote, "The worst kind of social climber."
36:11 Georgia Hardstark? Damn.
36:14 Karen Kilgariff? This was probably before she almost froze to death in the icy waters of the North Sea. Despite this, Nell and Molly eventually become friends.
36:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
36:24 Karen Kilgariff? Girl power.
36:27 Karen Kilgariff? Nell's work is pretty polarizing. Many readers wonder who the hell this woman thinks she is and why that she's not making them flaky, fresh biscuits instead of writing. But her bluntness and her brashness make her a standout. She's not afraid to ask the hard questions, to show up uninvited, or to name names. And because of that, her readers devour her articles. So now we're in 1899, and since Nell's bosses at The Post are always looking for ways to sell more newspapers, they figure what better way to do that than to send their firecracker lady reporter out to check on the Colorado cannibal himself. And Nell says, "Hell, yes, I'll go talk to that fucking cannibal. Sounds good to me."
37:11 Georgia Hardstark? Shut up. So like, that all happens, and they're like, "Hey, you piss everyone off. Why don't you go talk to this murdering cannibal?"
37:19 Karen Kilgariff? Here's another guy that pissed a bunch of people off.
37:21 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Yikes.
37:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. So Nell travels 100 miles south of Denver to a prison in Canyon City.
37:31 Karen Kilgariff? You know what? They don't, it doesn't seem like it's a great place. I don't know.
37:36 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, the prison?
37:38 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so she has to follow the warden around. She like shadows him to get the tour, and she finds this prison extremely disturbing. She can't stop thinking about the difficult life circumstances that led each inmate to this awful place and how dark their futures are. And she's disgusted to learn that members of the public can pay 25 cents to come and gawk at the prisoners.
38:01 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
38:02 Karen Kilgariff? Did you know that that was a thing they used to do?
38:04 Georgia Hardstark? What, do they just stand and stare at them?
38:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, after church.
38:10 Karen Kilgariff? And how much do you think 25 cents was back then?
38:13 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, and we're in 18...
38:15 Karen Kilgariff? It's like 1890. I can't find that fucking piece of paper, so...
38:19 Georgia Hardstark? Well, I guess I'm gonna go $12.
38:23 Karen Kilgariff? $10?
38:23 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck!
38:24 Karen Kilgariff? That was good.
38:25 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, if you're a drag-along, that was amazing. Like, that was so close. I know it doesn't sound close, but it was really close.
38:32 Karen Kilgariff? I guessed like eight different monies from a different time with Georgia last night, and I was never within $100,000.
38:39 Georgia Hardstark? Well, he also decided, "We're not doing that anymore."
38:42 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's right. That's right. That was the last one.
38:45 Georgia Hardstark? Thank God.
38:46 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye, dumb thing. Okay. So ironically kind of, Nell is introduced to Alfred Packer in the prison kitchen.
38:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I hear. Okay, yeah.
38:59 Karen Kilgariff? Just absorb it for a second.
39:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's weird.
39:02 Karen Kilgariff? He is now around 58 years old, and Nell, not surprisingly, gets a very bad vibe from him.
39:08 Georgia Hardstark? You'd think.
39:10 Karen Kilgariff? She will describe him in an article, and this is what Maren wrote. She goes, "Like, he's describing a cartoon devil." It says, quote, "Dead, black hair, glittering eyes, sooty mustache and goatee, and sarcastic smile," end quote.
39:28 Georgia Hardstark? That does, yeah. There's a tiny moth right now.
39:30 Karen Kilgariff? For real?
39:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, like a teeny-tiny one. Have you guys noticed it, or am I having a seizure?
39:34 Karen Kilgariff? Now, do you think it's the same one from last night?
39:36 Georgia Hardstark? No.
39:36 Karen Kilgariff? Do you think that one's dead?
39:40 Georgia Hardstark? No, I don't know where that one went. Maybe in my...
39:43 Karen Kilgariff? Maybe like this.
39:44 Georgia Hardstark? ...putty coat. But there's a teeny-tiny one.
39:49 Karen Kilgariff? Come on.
39:50 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, you're trying to get it to land on your finger?
39:54 Karen Kilgariff? Come on, we've all seen Snow White, goddammit.
39:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that would be so cute.
40:01 Karen Kilgariff? We would have a whole different show if moth started landing on our fingers. See, I'm not going crazy.
40:09 Karen Kilgariff? What's the rule of the theater? No smoking, no children, no live animals. And yet, here we are, contending with this moth all night long. Try to focus, everybody. Okay. The kitchen meeting is quick, and she is very... She wants to spend more time with him. She wants to talk to him more. So she sets up a formal interview for the next day. But it doesn't start out well, because Alfred Packer, of course, is like, "You're just here to sensationalize me and to, you know, make his life worse."
40:39 Georgia Hardstark? It's judgy of him. It's judgy of a cannibal.
40:42 Karen Kilgariff? Especially from his background. You know? It's like, give a little grace. You ate five people. But when Nell gets Packer talking, he starts telling her his version of this infamous story, explaining to his account that they crossed the San Juan Mountains. They got lost, supplies ran out. He claims one man lost his mind and started shooting at the others. And he... And so Alfred was forced to shoot the shooter and kill him dead. So it was just self-defense. Oh, so, sorry. He's basically saying the shooter killed the other four men. Then Alfred had to kill him.
41:26 Karen Kilgariff? And then he's like, "And then I just had to eat everybody."
41:30 Georgia Hardstark? It's the age old, "Wasn't me."
41:33 Karen Kilgariff? He claims cannibalizing the dead men was just another act of survival. So Nell is... This is a convincing story to Nell. She's there with him face to face, and she thinks this is compelling. And whether he was a murderous cannibal or a man caught in an impossible position, she sees this as a great way to start the larger discussion of the difficulties that the accused face in this country in the US justice system, which, fuck yeah, 100 years ago.
42:04 Karen Kilgariff? No. Not even, not even close. She focuses on whether or not Packer was actually fairly tried, not so much about... The cannibalism. She's able to brush cannibalism aside for just a little while. And the more she investigates, the more she's convinced that he was not, that there was no hard evidence or eyewitnesses presented at his trial that definitely proved that his story was false. And there was a ton of hysteria and of course, a ton of sensational reporting that Nell believes led to his conviction. So she becomes hell-bent on getting Alfred Packer justice.
42:43 Karen Kilgariff? She convinces her boss, Frederick Bonfie, with the moth mustache, to let her write sympathetic coverage of him in The Post, because she wants her readers to envision a scenario where they might somehow wind up in an impossible situation. Oh, no. Convicted of a crime based solely on circumstantial evidence with no way to advocate for yourself. Minus the cannibalism. Minus the cannibalism. So now, it's a big job for Nell as Polly Pry. Everyone in America knows Alfred Packer as the guy who ate five other guys. So, this is one of The Post's most incendiary reporters, basically vigorously defending
43:28 Karen Kilgariff? Alfred Packer. There's backlash. But when an opportunist lawyer named William Anderson gets involved, it like ratchets things up a notch. So, this part of the story is a little fuzzy, but essentially, this guy, William Anderson, tries to swindle money from both the owners of The Post and from Alfred Packer, saying that like, he'll represent both of them. And he takes retainer money from both. And then, when the guys from The Post find out, they... He did it to reporters. It's like, they'll find out. They're really good at finding stuff out. That's kind of their thing. So they confront Anderson at the newspaper offices.
44:10 Karen Kilgariff? So, um, we don't know which one, if it was Frederick or Harry, but one of them directly accuses Anderson of having no ethics. He threatens to get him disbarred unless he returns that money. And then Frederick thinks he sees Anderson reaching for a weapon, so he lunges at him and holds him down. Polly gets, like, goes over and tries to beg them to stop fighting. As it turns out, Anderson does have a gun on him. And so he wrestles himself free, he grabs that gun, he fires it twice, he hits both Frederick and Harry.
44:43 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
44:44 Karen Kilgariff? And then when he steps forward to finish Harry off with a third shot, Nell steps in front of the gun and shields her boss. So Harry Tannen will later say about this, quote, "Just as Anderson was about to fire the third shot, Polly Pry rushed between us. Had it not been for her, doubtless I would have been killed. She placed herself in front of his pistol and moved with it as he tried to reach me." Badass.
45:11 Georgia Hardstark? Would you do that for your boss?
45:16 Karen Kilgariff? No fucking way. Well, I think there's that thing with, like, guns, maybe it's because it was, like, Wild Westy era, where it's like, they were probably super used to guns, where people are always, like, at church, where it, like, falls out of your pocket, and you're, "Sorry."
45:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
45:31 Karen Kilgariff? But stepping in front of a gun?
45:33 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
45:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. It's big. The good news is both of the owners of the Post survive. Anderson is taken into custody for attempted murder, and Nell becomes an outright legend. Stories start to circulate that she's the one that wrestled the gun out of Anderson's hand, and that her big skirts caught the bullets that would have killed her boss.
45:55 Georgia Hardstark? She wrote that herself.
45:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, she did write that.
45:57 Georgia Hardstark? I thought she fucking made it up. Good for her, she deserves it, yeah.
46:02 Karen Kilgariff? Um, was, were there typewriters back then?
46:04 Georgia Hardstark? (laughing) I think so.
46:07 Karen Kilgariff? In the end, Nell's reporting on Alfred Packer becomes, uh, creates enough discourse that popular opinion about his crimes and conviction actually does change.
46:17 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
46:18 Karen Kilgariff? People seem to agree that it is impossible to tell whether his story of self-defense and survival are true, or if he maliciously killed those five men, and that's what we call reasonable doubt in this country.
46:31 Georgia Hardstark? Mmm, perfect.
46:32 Karen Kilgariff? Right? So Alfred Packer winds up being paroled, not pardoned, um, and in early, oh, he's paroled in early January of 1901.
46:41 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
46:42 Karen Kilgariff? So she, Nell, delivers his release papers herself to him. Um, Packer spends the next six years as a free man. He dies of a stroke in 1907 at the age of 65. A devout vegetarian. Just kidding.
46:56 Georgia Hardstark? (laughing) Oh, that was not very tasteful.
47:02 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, she loves a pun. She loves a pun.
47:06 Georgia Hardstark? Thank God I didn't do the Five Guys joke. I was like, no, I don't.
47:09 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my God. Wait, do it!
47:12 Georgia Hardstark? No, that was it. (laughing) You guys were all thinking it. The original Five Guys?
47:19 Karen Kilgariff? Their bodies were laid out on the riverbed and a shit-ton of french fries over here. Like, why so many french fries? That's french fries for four.
47:30 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. So, her experience in interviewing Alfred Packer gets Nell really fired up about the injustices of the American prison system, so she starts reporting on it extensively. Um, she works to get other incarcerated people released from prison. She also investigates the abuse and neglect inside the state-run asylums here.
47:52 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
47:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And, just like Nellie Bly, um, she also investigates the treatment of patients in military hospitals, and she even starts writing about the very, at the time, secretive practice of polygamy within the Mormon church.
48:06 Georgia Hardstark? Damn, girl!
48:07 Karen Kilgariff? She doesn't give a shit.
48:09 Georgia Hardstark? I like her.
48:10 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I do, too. You'll like her more when you hear this. In 1903, she gets a tip about the horrific conditions at the Fort Lewis Indian School in Durango. So if you don't know about Indian schools, horrifying. I think people are hearing about them more and more now. But this was one of the many US-run boarding schools that were built to assimilate native children to European-American culture. They were horribly abusive, and at the time, most white Americans did not know, or they did not care about those abuses against Native American children. But Nell cared very much. So she starts doing some digging, and she books a 10-day trip to Durango and just starts
48:54 Karen Kilgariff? interviewing anyone that will talk to her about these schools. She hears one horrible story after another about children being denied medical care, being forced to perform brutal labor, and being sexually abused by the school superintendent, Dr. Thomas Breen. He was also sexually assaulting teachers, like it was fucking horrifying mayhem. There was some bad stuff back then, and now. Nell's reporting on this school will later be described as some of her most heartfelt, detailed, and deeply researched reporting of her career. And like her Alfred Packer reporting, it actually creates change, in a small way. And that is that she gets Dr. Breen fired from his post.
49:39 Georgia Hardstark? Right. I like that.
49:42 Karen Kilgariff? The power of journalism. Back in DC, the Bureau of Indian Affairs is not happy with her.
49:51 Georgia Hardstark? Of course not.
49:52 Karen Kilgariff? The commissioner puts out a statement minimizing her reporting as, quote, "sensational newspaper attacks."
49:58 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
49:59 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. Except for, they were so specific, though.
50:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
50:03 Karen Kilgariff? So specific. So the thing about Nell, or Nell, sorry, is that around the same time, she's also writing scathing attacks on Colorado labor unions. She goes so far as to accuse the leaders of exploiting the working class and intentionally creating chaos. So this is not unusual for a reporter of her time, and there may have been corruption taken place, we all know, it's everywhere, but her writing on this issue... veers into the highly problematic, as many things were back then, and unfortunately not uncommon. She talks about things like class and immigration,
50:43 Karen Kilgariff? immigration, writing derogatory columns about the Irish immigrants moving to Colorado to work in the mines. It's always just the different new people that they want to attack.
50:57 Karen Kilgariff? Goddamn.
50:59 Karen Kilgariff? So, on one hand, she tackles these amazing progressive issues like prison conditions and the Native American boarding schools. And she also does some articles about the treatment of black soldiers in the US Army. She does a ton of stuff about women's suffrage, but then she digs her heels in on this labor issue. And she's, it's not good. She's blinded by her biases. She doesn't seem to realize how contradictory her stances are. And she doesn't care how much anger she's basically creating, because that's kind of what she's like. Then in the early 1900s, she hears a knock at her door. And when she opens it, a man is standing there. He fires twice.
51:43 Karen Kilgariff? He's holding a gun, he fires twice. But Nell fucking starts to slam the door nice and early so the bullets get stuck in her nice big wooden door. Shit.
51:55 Karen Kilgariff? Wow. Yeah. And the man runs away, he's never caught. Nell assumes this man is somehow from the labor unions and he's been sent to assassinate her. The labor unions themselves suggest that maybe Nell staged the attack to drum up publicity and sympathy, which is something that she had done. And of course, to sell papers. It's also possible that this man hated Nell for any of the other incendiary reporting that she had done over the last decade, or for the fact that she was just a woman. There are so many reasons to hate her. But either way, when she gets into this part of her career, her stance on unions, and then the controversial reporting that the government gets mad about the Indian school atrocities, The Denver Post fires her.
52:41 Karen Kilgariff? So, here's the good news. It doesn't stop her, because at heart, she really is this investigative reporter. So at 44 years old, and this is like in the early 1900s, she basically starts a Substack.
52:58 Karen Kilgariff? She names it Polly Pry. It's a publication, the only female-led publication of the time. And it's great. It's split into four sections. The first one is gossip, of course, first and foremost. Second is Denver and Colorado politics. The third, oh, sorry, the gossip section is called Tell the Truth and Shame the Devil, which is hilarious.
53:23 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck. That's a good one.
53:25 Karen Kilgariff? That's like saying Jesus wants you to gossip. Like, shut up now, you are crazy, girl. Another section on local theater. And of course, the last, on automobiles.
53:38 Georgia Hardstark? Sure. It's like Bridgerton, essentially.
53:42 Karen Kilgariff? There's something for everyone. By September of 1903, Nell has 3,500 subscribers to this.
53:50 Georgia Hardstark? Which in today's people... That's a fucking lot of people, right?
53:54 Karen Kilgariff? It is so many people.
53:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like back in...
53:57 Karen Kilgariff? For a woman writer? But then, not long after she creates it, she gets bored and sells it. Because that's our girl.
54:06 Georgia Hardstark? Good for you.
54:06 Karen Kilgariff? Right, yeah. And then she goes, she moves back to New York City. And we don't know the kind of chronology of this, but there, she very quietly marries a man named Harry O'Brien. And she's keeping it quiet because, once again...
54:21 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
54:22 Karen Kilgariff? Married with children.
54:23 Georgia Hardstark? Girl.
54:24 Karen Kilgariff? Your favorite TV show. She, she basically does it all in secret because she's deathly afraid that some other gossip columnist is going to come and report on the gossip columnist and her gossip.
54:37 Georgia Hardstark? Look who's calling the kettle. Out.
54:41 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah? That's our, that's our new T-shirt. Get ready, everybody. God, I'm almost done, I swear to God.
54:52 Karen Kilgariff? This marriage is short-lived.
54:54 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
54:55 Karen Kilgariff? Nell divorces Harry a few years later because she learns that he had another wife in a different state. Man, you gotta love 'em. Now, in her 60s, Nell heads back out west and in 1908, um, oh, in 1908, who wrote this? Because she really misses Colorado. A few years later, she takes a job at the Denver Times and she starts reporting on the Mexican Revolution.
55:23 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
55:23 Karen Kilgariff? She goes to Mexico and spends six weeks trying to get an interview with the revolutionary Pancho Villa.
55:30 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
55:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. And remember, she used to live in Mexico with her first three-named husband, and so she speaks the language, she works her magic, and she does get a meeting with Pancho Villa.
55:42 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
55:43 Karen Kilgariff? And in that interview, she does the same shit she always does.
55:47 Georgia Hardstark? What does she call him? Okay.
55:49 Karen Kilgariff? She pulls no punches and she claims later that at one point she gets him so mad he turns red. But then she turns the charm on, she wins him back, and basically he invites her to interview him again sometime.
56:04 Georgia Hardstark? All right.
56:04 Karen Kilgariff? So it all works out. That's according to her.
56:07 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
56:08 Karen Kilgariff? Others say she ate five men.
56:12 Karen Kilgariff? I'm so tired of reading this. The first of Nell's articles from Mexico is published in April of 1914. They're some of the most popular pieces of the Denver Times has ever produced. It reinvigorates her reporting career and she starts covering everything from Colorado theater to the battles of World War I. Range. She's also working hard to develop a local theater scene in Denver. She produces plays and musicals to varying degrees of success. Die to watch one of those. On this very stage. She's also an active member, of course, of the Denver Women's Press Club and she... We got some members in the house tonight?
56:56 Karen Kilgariff? You are fucking lying.
57:00 Karen Kilgariff? The Denver Women's Lying Club is more like it. Nell continues her very vocal advocacy for women's suffrage and, of course, the fight to get women in more newsrooms, laugh page. It's not until she's in her late 70s that Nell starts to dial back her workload a bit. Oh, can we take a look at that last picture of Nell in her later life? Aww.
57:22 Georgia Hardstark? What happened to... Why is she so cross-hatched?
57:25 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's...
57:28 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's that Harper's Bazaar illustrator that was so fucked up from finding those five bodies on the riverbank that he was just like, "Oh, I guess this is what she looked like at a head and a toe."
57:38 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, okay. That's kind of insulting.
57:42 Georgia Hardstark? That's what Botox is for.
57:44 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, for real. Daxify. It's not until she's in her late 70s that Nell starts to dial back her workload, but then, on July 15th, 1938, when she is 79 years old, she suffers a heart attack and dies. The next day, The Denver Post writes about her final moments, saying, quote, "A moment before passing, with characteristic energy, she raises herself from the bed and said to the attending nurse, 'I must be up,' and..." And then she dies.
58:14 Georgia Hardstark? What the fuck?
58:15 Karen Kilgariff? Those are her last words.
58:17 Georgia Hardstark? Mid-fucking-sentence? That sucks.
58:19 Karen Kilgariff? "I must be up."
58:20 Georgia Hardstark? What does that mean?
58:22 Karen Kilgariff? In 2011, Nell was inducted to the Denver Press Club Hall of Fame, and, right? And biographer Julia Brickland says that the honor was something. Quote, "She might or might not have coveted, depending on how she felt about whomever was president of the organization at the time."
58:42 Georgia Hardstark? Sounds right.
58:43 Karen Kilgariff? What would matter to her the most is that she paved the way for women journalists who came after her to sit proudly in their newsrooms, right? Or at the helm of their own business, knowing that they had just as much to contribute to the field as any male colleague. And that's the story of trailblazing Denver journalist Nell Campbell.
59:14 Georgia Hardstark? Good job.
59:15 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
59:16 Georgia Hardstark? Good job.
59:17 Karen Kilgariff? Amazing.
59:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
59:19 Karen Kilgariff? That's it. That's really something to be proud of, Denver. That's very cool.
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59:54 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.
59:59 Karen Kilgariff? Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception: his mom.
1:00:07 Georgia Hardstark? To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives. But for Sonny, he knows something is off.
1:00:12 Karen Kilgariff? As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.
1:00:20 Georgia Hardstark? Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?
1:00:23 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
1:00:31 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series Phony.
1:00:33 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
1:00:38 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:00:39 Karen Kilgariff? Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.
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1:01:13 Karen Kilgariff? I really do love Kachava, and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein. Protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.
1:01:24 Georgia Hardstark? It's such an easy way to get everything you need and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.
1:01:29 Karen Kilgariff? So embrace your salty side.
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1:01:35 Karen Kilgariff? That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM. Goodbye.
1:01:43 Georgia Hardstark? You know what else is something to be proud of?
1:01:45 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:01:45 Georgia Hardstark? The Stanley Hotel.
1:01:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:01:52 Georgia Hardstark? I'm gonna fucking tell you about the ghosts and the hauntings of the Stanley Hotel.
1:02:01 Karen Kilgariff? There are people going loose with their arms.
1:02:03 Georgia Hardstark? No way.
1:02:03 Karen Kilgariff? Like they're at a revival, like, the Stanley Hotel.
1:02:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, wanna see a picture of it? Let's look at the picture of the Stanley Hotel. Hi.
1:02:15 Georgia Hardstark? Have you guys stayed there?
1:02:18 Georgia Hardstark? She has glasses on, sunglasses.
1:02:21 Karen Kilgariff? We should, we should look up their Yelp reviews right now and just see it. It's like, it's nice.
1:02:26 Georgia Hardstark? And the rugs were, no.
1:02:28 Karen Kilgariff? It was nice, but the ghosts touched my toe.
1:02:32 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so tell me if this story makes you believe in ghosts more.
1:02:36 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:02:36 Georgia Hardstark? Or not.
1:02:39 Georgia Hardstark? So I'm gonna tell you, so the year is, here's where we're gonna start. The year is 1974 and we're in Estes Park.
1:02:48 Georgia Hardstark? Why not, just one of you. Estes. Estes Park, thank you.
1:02:54 Karen Kilgariff? Did you do it or not?
1:02:55 Georgia Hardstark? Estes Park.
1:02:56 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, great.
1:02:57 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. You guys don't sound sure.
1:03:01 Karen Kilgariff? We should have.
1:03:01 Georgia Hardstark? Let's not say it again.
1:03:03 Karen Kilgariff? Let's stop talking about it.
1:03:06 Georgia Hardstark? It's about an hour and a half northwest of here and a popular gateway to the Rocky Mountain National Park, you guys.
1:03:15 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, and so here we are in a married couple. They're both authors based in Boulder. They are desperate this day to get away from their little kids for just one frickin' night. You guys all know. So they find a sitter and they check into a hotel. It's the fall and the hotel's about to shut down for the winter. And it turns out, this couple were the only two guests in the whole place.
1:03:38 Karen Kilgariff? I know this story.
1:03:39 Georgia Hardstark? Of course you do.
1:03:41 Georgia Hardstark? As some of you may have already figured out, thank you, Ally, for writing that. Like Karen, the authors are Stephen King and his wife, Tabitha King.
1:03:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:03:52 Georgia Hardstark? And tonight's story is about the historic Stanley Hotel, one of the most haunted places in America, and the inspiration for the Overlook Hotel in the novel The Shining.
1:04:01 Karen Kilgariff? Amy.
1:04:04 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
1:04:04 Karen Kilgariff? You get to do a story that involves Stephen King.
1:04:07 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
1:04:08 Karen Kilgariff? That's the best.
1:04:09 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
1:04:09 Karen Kilgariff? Congratulations.
1:04:10 Georgia Hardstark? And I have a funny... I have an anecdote about their marriage that makes me fucking love them.
1:04:14 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:04:15 Georgia Hardstark? The main sources used for the story is a book called The History and Haunting of the Stanley Hotel by Rebecca F. Pittman, and the rest of our sources is gonna be found in our show notes. So Stephen and Tabitha King check into room 217 at the Stanley Hotel in the fall of 1974, as I said. They're the only guests in the whole place, and that night, they eat at the hotel's restaurant. And Stephen King says later, quote, "Except for our table, all the chairs were up on the tables, so the music is echoing down the hall. And I mean, it was like God had put me there to hear that and see those things." Men. End quote.
1:04:50 Karen Kilgariff? It's all for me.
1:04:52 Georgia Hardstark? If I walked into a restaurant and all the chairs were on the table, I'd be like, "They don't want us here."
1:04:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, bye.
1:04:57 Georgia Hardstark? Like, "Go away." Like...
1:04:58 Karen Kilgariff? Just give the closing crew their last 15 minutes of peace.
1:05:01 Georgia Hardstark? Seriously, they don't wanna make your fucking penny.
1:05:04 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:05:07 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, wait, let's see.
1:05:08 Karen Kilgariff? I... You know what's weird? I did not know that he wrote that based on his own experience. I've never heard that before.
1:05:15 Georgia Hardstark? Well, you're gonna hear it now.
1:05:16 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:05:19 Georgia Hardstark? And as the night wears on, he can't shake that unsettling feeling. He says, quote, "Wandering through the corridors, I thought that it seemed the perfect, maybe the archetypal, setting for a ghost story. That night, I dreamed of my three-year-old son running down the corridors, looking back over his shoulder, eyes wide, screaming." That's fucking creepy.
1:05:42 Georgia Hardstark? "I woke up with a tremendous jerk, sweating all over, within an inch of falling out of bed. I got up, lit a cigarette."
1:05:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:05:50 Georgia Hardstark? "Yeah." "Sat in the chair, looking out the window at the Rockies, and by the time the cigarette was done, I had the bones of the book firmly set in my mind."
1:05:59 Karen Kilgariff? That guy.
1:05:59 Georgia Hardstark? That sounds great to write a book. And here's a... Here's a photo of them.
1:06:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:06:07 Georgia Hardstark? I would wear her dress so hard.
1:06:09 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my god.
1:06:10 Georgia Hardstark? Look at that.
1:06:12 Karen Kilgariff? She's like, "Can we please leave this gala?"
1:06:16 Georgia Hardstark? Stephen, you've got, Stephen!
1:06:18 Karen Kilgariff? Stephen!
1:06:19 Georgia Hardstark? Stephen!
1:06:20 Karen Kilgariff? Stephen!
1:06:23 Georgia Hardstark? He's not here, but he did text me. I'm sure he text you too, "Break a leg tonight."
1:06:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, Stephen, he's here, but he's not here physically, but he's here in spirit.
1:06:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, as a moth. A tiny moth.
1:06:34 Karen Kilgariff? He's the moth. That moth has a big mustache.
1:06:39 Georgia Hardstark? The moth has a moth mustache. Here's an anecdote about their relationship. When Stephen King was writing the novel 112263, for some fucking reason, a big part of his process was listening to the extended, listen to this, and imagine being married to this person, the extended dance mix of Lou Vega's 1999 hit, Mambo Number Five.
1:07:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yes! "A little bit of Monica in my..."
1:07:06 Georgia Hardstark? Extended dance version over and over again. He listened to the song so much that this fucking badass threatened to divorce him if he played it one more time.
1:07:18 Karen Kilgariff? That's a tough one to have on repeat. I don't know.
1:07:21 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, it's the absolute, that's...
1:07:23 Karen Kilgariff? Very positive and upbeat, but you just don't want to hear, you don't want to hear it that much.
1:07:27 Georgia Hardstark? Now you have to read that book, listening, and like hear it the whole time.
1:07:30 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm, and now I'm going to be thinking about it for the rest of your story.
1:07:33 Georgia Hardstark? She said, "One more time and I'm going to fucking leave you." Which, holy shit, we love her. Okay, so if Stephen King knew about the Stanley Hotel's very long history of strange occurrences, some which happened in the very room he slept in before his stay, he doesn't ever mention it, so we don't know. But you've got to imagine, like, Stephen King goes into an old hotel and is like, "I bet this is haunted."
1:07:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, he's like, "I'll go ahead and take room 372?"
1:08:01 Georgia Hardstark? 217.
1:08:01 Karen Kilgariff? 217, okay.
1:08:02 Georgia Hardstark? Close, and today's...
1:08:04 Karen Kilgariff? And today's...
1:08:06 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
1:08:09 Georgia Hardstark? So let's get into this hotel and the long and spooky history leading up to Stephen King's fitful, fateful night. The Stanley Hotel opens on July 4th, your favorite.
1:08:22 Karen Kilgariff? I love America.
1:08:26 Georgia Hardstark? 1909, it's this, you know, big grand hotel built in the colonial revival style.
1:08:31 Karen Kilgariff? Like my house?
1:08:33 Georgia Hardstark? With the white exterior, it's just, it's majestic is the word that they would use.
1:08:39 Karen Kilgariff? Was it festooned?
1:08:40 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, it's festooned, I'm sure there were bells, I don't know. Let's see, and so it had been built by a man named Freeland Oscar Stanley. Uh oh, three first names.
1:08:52 Karen Kilgariff? What's that first name?
1:08:53 Georgia Hardstark? Freeland, I guess.
1:08:54 Karen Kilgariff? Freeland? No, it doesn't qualify.
1:08:56 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. He made his fortune manufacturing steam-powered cars which were known as Stanley Steamers.
1:09:03 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
1:09:05 Georgia Hardstark? But it's not, it's not the same thing.
1:09:07 Karen Kilgariff? That can't be.
1:09:08 Georgia Hardstark? I know, there's two different fucking Stanley Steamers. One of them is a carpet cleaning company and one, you know what I mean? Like, that's weird, right?
1:09:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah.
1:09:18 Georgia Hardstark? It's like...
1:09:19 Karen Kilgariff? Do you think that the carpet cleaning company was like, here's a great reference from the past that we'll make?
1:09:24 Georgia Hardstark? And they're also like, it kind of works with us better, so fuck you, a little. I don't know.
1:09:29 Karen Kilgariff? Steam-powered cars, so you had to fill it with water and then drive it around?
1:09:34 Georgia Hardstark? Steam-powered cars, yeah, I guess so.
1:09:36 Karen Kilgariff? And then it would burn your face if you got too close to certain parts of it?
1:09:40 Georgia Hardstark? Freeland's wife, Flora, had overseen the design of the interior. It's just beautiful burgundy and gold, wood panel, you know, you've seen the fucking Shining, you know what it looks like.
1:09:50 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah, looks exactly like it.
1:09:51 Georgia Hardstark? Even though the Shining wasn't filmed and, you know. It says, Ali wrote, "Picture the interiors of the Titanic, but on land."
1:09:59 Karen Kilgariff? And right side up.
1:10:02 Georgia Hardstark? And not at the bottom of the fucking...
1:10:05 Karen Kilgariff? Every picture I see is upside fucking down with moss, sick of it. Clean it up. I'm gonna start an online campaign to clean the Titanic before it's raised. I don't want it raised, I just want someone to go wipe that moss off.
1:10:22 Georgia Hardstark? Like, brought to you by Stanley Steamers.
1:10:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, we've got a new sponsor for this tour.
1:10:33 Georgia Hardstark? Funnily enough, Stephen and Tabitha King, the Stanleys had also been from Maine, though they'd lived a long time outside of Boston. They moved to Colorado in 1903 after Freeland comes down with tuberculosis. It's the place to be.
1:10:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:10:47 Georgia Hardstark? When you have tuberculosis.
1:10:48 Karen Kilgariff? It's the place to be if you have TB.
1:10:52 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, that's a great jingle.
1:10:56 Georgia Hardstark? Freeland makes a recovery. He's so excited about it that he builds his luxury hotel for his equally rich and sick friends to come and heal and hang out, which sounds great. So, there is a tunnel carved into the hotel's foundation, which is carved into bedrock, which at some point was intended for hotel employees, because of course it was.
1:11:16 Karen Kilgariff? You guys go down there.
1:11:18 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
1:11:19 Karen Kilgariff? No one wants to look at you have a job.
1:11:21 Georgia Hardstark? Pretend there's nobody working here. And hotel workers now say that when they are in the basement and they pass the tunnel, they sometimes hear now people saying, whispering their names. Fuck no.
1:11:34 Karen Kilgariff? Jordan.
1:11:35 Georgia Hardstark? No! Don't whisper my name, it's so creepy.
1:11:39 Karen Kilgariff? Jordan, forget it, forget it. I like it.
1:11:45 Georgia Hardstark? The hotel has 140 guest rooms, in case you're planning a wedding.
1:11:51 Georgia Hardstark? And then, of course, there are lots of other spaces and several other buildings on the grounds. Hotel staff will tell you that every last room in the hotel is haunted, which is like, great.
1:11:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:12:00 Georgia Hardstark? Did they put that on Travelocity? I don't know.
1:12:01 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, but then you could have like a haunted wedding if you wanted to.
1:12:05 Georgia Hardstark? Ooh.
1:12:07 Karen Kilgariff? Everybody that's into it.
1:12:08 Georgia Hardstark? That sounds cool. Hotel staff will tell... I don't know.
1:12:11 Karen Kilgariff? That's not sincere.
1:12:14 Georgia Hardstark? Hotel staff will tell you about strange occurrences that have been reported on every last square of the place, which, let's fucking go. People have reported rocking chairs rocking with no one in them.
1:12:25 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh, just get rid of the fucking rocking chair, right? Just four on the floor.
1:12:32 Georgia Hardstark? What if those chairs start rocking now? Like, I'd rather have a rocking chair rock. People have also reported weird lights where there shouldn't be, shadows, sudden chills and shocks, sudden headaches, which to me sounds like a gas leak. They should get that checked out. Unexplained music, right?
1:12:51 Karen Kilgariff? Stanley Steamer.
1:12:55 Karen Kilgariff? What was that?
1:12:56 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god. Unexplained scents, which sounds awful.
1:13:02 Karen Kilgariff? Explain that scent, that's my new game show.
1:13:08 Georgia Hardstark? And in 1970, before Steve and King stayed there, one maid reported going to a ballroom that should have been empty to clean it and saw it full of ghostly figures in ball gowns and tuxedos dancing.
1:13:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:13:19 Georgia Hardstark? Sounds like the haunted mansion.
1:13:21 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:13:24 Georgia Hardstark? Room 418 is said to be the hotel's most haunted room, and guests who have stayed there often report rattling windows, and that, which is like, yeah, it's wind.
1:13:33 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, that's happening in my hotel room right now. I literally was like, is someone behind that curtain? Just like, no, just the wind.
1:13:41 Georgia Hardstark? It's wind. However, it also, they also report the sound of unexplained children running through the hallway outside. Ooh, children or ghost children? So scary.
1:13:52 Karen Kilgariff? Any child.
1:13:53 Georgia Hardstark? And the sound...
1:14:00 Georgia Hardstark? And the sound of a bouncing ball. Ding, you know. You know what a bucky...
1:14:07 Karen Kilgariff? You mean the sound doing?
1:14:08 Georgia Hardstark? Doing. I just hear like a handball.
1:14:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, the big red one?
1:14:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, exactly. So I'm not gonna go into all the stories, obviously, but let's start with room 217. So here's a photo of it in 1911.
1:14:22 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh, brittan everywhere.
1:14:27 Georgia Hardstark? Isn't it cool? What do you think it smells like?
1:14:32 Karen Kilgariff? Explain that smell.
1:14:33 Georgia Hardstark? Cigarettes and mothballs, like my dress.
1:14:37 Karen Kilgariff? Now, is that twin beds or one, like, queen with two separate headboards?
1:14:45 Georgia Hardstark? I think it's two twins pushed together in a like, don't touch each other though, way.
1:14:51 Karen Kilgariff? That's the cause of all this haunting.
1:14:55 Georgia Hardstark? Some prude is like, how dare you? Also, they haven't figured out yet that the key to a happy marriage is a king-size bed, for fuck's sake.
1:15:05 Karen Kilgariff? I thought the key to a happy marriage was multiple headboards.
1:15:12 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so. So it's the most famous. It had once been part of a larger presidential suite, and many famous people have stayed there before and after the Kings, including Theodore Roosevelt, your best friend, the unsinkable Molly Brown.
1:15:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, she's in every story. She's truly in every story.
1:15:29 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. So about 60 years before the Kings stayed there, in June of 1911, a big storm, remember those rattling windows, knocked out the electricity at the Stanley, and the hotel at this point had only been open for two years. But everything ran on electricity, which was like really highfalutin back then. However...
1:15:46 Karen Kilgariff? What's the look of highfalutin?
1:15:49 Georgia Hardstark? It's the jazz age.
1:15:52 Karen Kilgariff? Turn the light on, see?
1:15:56 Georgia Hardstark? Let's flip a switch. But also, the lamps were designed to work with electricity or gas for when storms came. So during a storm, a chambermaid in her 50s named Elizabeth Wilson enters room 217 to light the gas lamp, because the electricity went out. Unfortunately, for some reason, the gas had been on for a while, so she goes to fucking light a match. You guys know what happens next.
1:16:21 Karen Kilgariff? Fireball.
1:16:21 Georgia Hardstark? Huge explosion, taking off a chunk of the building's facade, and blowing Elizabeth backwards and down through a hole that's been blasted in the floor of that fucking room. She fucking survives.
1:16:33 Karen Kilgariff? No.
1:16:36 Karen Kilgariff? Liz, badass.
1:16:38 Georgia Hardstark? Which is like, if it's gonna be a ghost story, that's not how it usually goes. But, okay.
1:16:44 Karen Kilgariff? She's haunted by that experience. She's like, "I can't fucking believe that happened to me."
1:16:48 Georgia Hardstark? Kind of. She breaks both ankles, poor thing. But she survives. And in fact, there are a few other injuries, but nobody dies in the accident. And Freeland Stanley, the hotel's owner, feels so bad for it. And of course, there's no like worker's comp at the time. So he pays for all her medical bills, which is like shocking at the time.
1:17:09 Karen Kilgariff? Required.
1:17:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, no. And has her recover in one of the guest rooms until she's fully healed. And she ends up having a long career at the Stanley Hotel and lives into her 90s, passing away in 1951. So now she can finally haunt that room.
1:17:24 Karen Kilgariff? And interesting fun fact, she's the old lady in the bathtub from the movie The Shining.
1:17:29 Georgia Hardstark? My god.
1:17:32 Karen Kilgariff? That was my worst part of that movie.
1:17:34 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it was good. Now, she good naturedly haunts the room because she only broke two ankles, so she's not mad, I guess.
1:17:43 Georgia Hardstark? Here's what she does. She, if guests are messy and have left their clothes lying around, and they come back to the room, they find all their clothes flung around in different places. She's pissed and makes it worse. Which sounds like you got shitfaced last night and don't remember doing that. I do that.
1:17:59 Karen Kilgariff? Who threw my bra over there?
1:18:00 Georgia Hardstark? Right. My undergarments. And then they say sheets move around while they're in bed, as if she's making the bed with them in it.
1:18:10 Karen Kilgariff? Mom.
1:18:12 Georgia Hardstark? Your mom made your bed?
1:18:13 Karen Kilgariff? Get up. You know, that's how they get you up.
1:18:16 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, right. Oh, she just ripped the covers off you. Oh, my God. Okay, people also say that when you try to take a picture of the room with a digital camera, an unexplained purple bar appears in the viewfinder, which is really creepy, and it happens near the love seat in the room.
1:18:30 Karen Kilgariff? It's not as creepy as having a digital camera, though, so let's be honest. Get with it.
1:18:35 Georgia Hardstark? It's vintage, Karen. Guests who are, like, neat and tidy report they returned to their room and found their clothes unpacked from their suitcases and put away.
1:18:46 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
1:18:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. But, like, that sounds like a turn-down service. But no, they don't have that at this hotel, so no.
1:18:54 Karen Kilgariff? I didn't know that you were supposed to use the drawers in hotel rooms.
1:18:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God. It's never open. Do they even open?
1:19:00 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, they do. And the only reason I know is because Adrian Colting uses them. She unpacks and like moves in. I'm like, we're here for 48 hours.
1:19:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. That is a thing to know. Like, who are the people who live out of their suitcase? And who are the people who, like, move in and unpack?
1:19:17 Karen Kilgariff? It's two different types of people.
1:19:18 Georgia Hardstark? Wow. And those two people meet and get married and hate each other. I don't know. Where was I? Unpacking. Okay. Okay, so there's rumors that this actually happened, you know, cleaning up the room to Steven and Tabitha King. But they've never talked about it anywhere. People say that in the bathroom, the faucets turn on and off by themselves. And you'll remember that in the bathroom. The bathroom in The Shining is a big deal. And the Kubrick, but the Kubrick movie...
1:19:49 Karen Kilgariff? What happened?
1:19:51 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know. There's just a lot.
1:19:55 Karen Kilgariff? No, I like it. Keep going.
1:19:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, so they think it's all Elizabeth, like, turning on and off the fucking shower and the thing, and she's like, "Ooh, running water, maybe." I don't know.
1:20:03 Karen Kilgariff? She sounds, it sounds to me like Elizabeth has OCD. And she's just like, "Can we just clean this up, please? Can we just clean this room up?"
1:20:09 Georgia Hardstark? My ankles. Fuck. So then the staircase and the landing at this, and landings are, of course, haunted because those things get haunted, um, a lot. People, several people report the sightings of a ghost of a 14-year-old girl named Sarah, who apparently worked there as a nanny at some point in history. Author of the book "The History and Haunting of the Stanley Hotel," Rebecca Pittman, has written books about different haunted places, and she's even had her own hauntings occurred there. She says that when she was looking over the stairs railing, she felt the distinct sensation of something very cold pressing into her forearm, like someone was holding an ice cube there. Which is actually a trick when you have anxiety, is to hold an ice cube. So maybe the ghost had anxiety.
1:20:54 Karen Kilgariff? Ghost therapist.
1:20:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Oh, my gosh!
1:20:57 Karen Kilgariff? That's so nice.
1:20:58 Georgia Hardstark? It's starring Jennifer Love Hewitt, coming this fall.
1:21:01 Georgia Hardstark? I love it. I'd watch that.
1:21:04 Karen Kilgariff? Slow motion, holding a piece of ice on someone's arm.
1:21:09 Georgia Hardstark? And also Rebecca says she was taken on two guided ghost tours of the hotel by a woman who goes by the name Scary Mary. I bet she's fucking fun.
1:21:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:21:19 Georgia Hardstark? And claims she personally witnessed the appearance of two ghost children while on this tour. On two occasions, the children pressed their hands into Scary Mary's skirt, leaving little tiny child hand imprints.
1:21:32 Georgia Hardstark? No, get the fuck out!
1:21:33 Karen Kilgariff? And you can buy that skirt in the gift shop.
1:21:37 Georgia Hardstark? Mary, like, Mary, like, did, checked it and made sure there was no, I don't know, ooh, that sounds fun. And other people report seeing a Victorian-era clothed woman on the stairs and then feeling lightheaded while walking up or down the stairs, which, again, gas leak, it sounds like. Oh, here's a picture of a ghost at the Stanley Hotel.
1:21:57 Karen Kilgariff? Oh!
1:21:58 Georgia Hardstark? On the stairs.
1:21:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, I see it.
1:22:01 Georgia Hardstark? That's fucking scary.
1:22:02 Karen Kilgariff? I'm in.
1:22:03 Georgia Hardstark? I'd love that. And that's our rug from tonight.
1:22:08 Karen Kilgariff? I mean...
1:22:09 Georgia Hardstark? I see what they see, but I don't...
1:22:12 Karen Kilgariff? And I want to believe...
1:22:14 Georgia Hardstark? I do. That's fucking scary.
1:22:16 Karen Kilgariff? It kind of looks like, you know, they have those, like, those statues you can get at, like, Home Goods where it's a dog butler. It could be... I'm just saying it could be a dog butler.
1:22:27 Georgia Hardstark? Does anyone know whether or not they decorated from Home Goods there? That's all we're saying. It's like, you have to ask the hard questions.
1:22:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:22:34 Georgia Hardstark? Right? And like, the pianos will play, and then Flora's favorite perfume, the wife of the guy who built it, they can smell it in the air.
1:22:46 Karen Kilgariff? That's an explained smell.
1:22:47 Georgia Hardstark? Unexplained smells, they got its rose at least, and that...
1:22:51 Karen Kilgariff? They know the source of that one.
1:22:53 Georgia Hardstark? Most people believe that Flora Stanley is also haunting the hotel and plays on the piano a lot of times. And during the 1970s, prior to the King's Day, the hotel had actually been looted several times because it had been abandoned. People drove up with moving trucks and just fucking took things, put stuff into the fucking... Yeah.
1:23:14 Karen Kilgariff? Jesus Christ, so they just, they abandoned it? One owner just was like, "Bye, I can't handle this place anymore?"
1:23:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. But the owner at the time had actually gone through the effort of hiding the grand piano that was Flora's to protect it. And so they think she plays it as an appreciation for...
1:23:29 Karen Kilgariff? It's a great way to say thank you, having a ghost play the piano for you all night.
1:23:34 Georgia Hardstark? Nothing says thank you like haunting the fucking shit out of a place.
1:23:38 Karen Kilgariff? Thanks for making me scream again, Flora. Don't make the blood come out of the elevator, please.
1:23:45 Georgia Hardstark? When the novel The Shining comes out in 1977, and when the film adaptation comes out in 1980, the Stanley enjoys a renaissance, having been, obviously, made extremely famous. And it turns out Stephen King wasn't a huge fan of Stanley Kubrick's adaptation of his book, so in 1997, he wrote his own script for a miniseries that was much more faithful to the novel. And that series was shot in the actual hotel, because it was like, "Hey, you have a set, it's here, let's do it."
1:24:15 Karen Kilgariff? Did people like that series?
1:24:17 Georgia Hardstark? I didn't. Did anyone see it? I don't know.
1:24:21 Georgia Hardstark? There's a couple...
1:24:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yay! I thought it was okay.
1:24:27 Georgia Hardstark? And while shooting the crew of the movie in the Stanley Hotel, they stained the carpet in the lobby and witnesses claimed that a portrait of Flora Stanley flew off the wall and landed right on the stain as if she was admonishing the crew. Like, people make up reasons why the things happen.
1:24:48 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
1:24:48 Georgia Hardstark? Like, maybe she was just like, "I wanna lay on this." Like, it doesn't mean... Like, is it... You know what I mean?
1:24:54 Karen Kilgariff? I'm tired of being on the wall.
1:24:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:24:56 Karen Kilgariff? What's going on down here?
1:24:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, guess what else was shot at this Stanley Hotel?
1:25:00 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:25:01 Georgia Hardstark? Guess.
1:25:01 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, um...
1:25:02 Georgia Hardstark? Don't tell her!
1:25:03 Karen Kilgariff? $200,000. No, that was me guessing money.
1:25:07 Georgia Hardstark? Oh. I'll tell you. I shouldn't put you on the spot like that.
1:25:10 Karen Kilgariff? Was it "The World According to Garp"?
1:25:12 Georgia Hardstark? No, but a good guess, it was "Dumb and Dumber."
1:25:14 Karen Kilgariff? Oh!
1:25:16 Karen Kilgariff? Aww.
1:25:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. To this day, fans of "The Shining" in all its forms, as well as amateur and professional ghost hunters like yourself,
1:25:23 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
1:25:24 Georgia Hardstark? flock to the hotel to try to witness something paranormal, which lets... after-party, you guys, at the Stanley Hotel?
1:25:34 Georgia Hardstark? And a lot of people do still, I guess, put on Travelocity that they see hauntings.
1:25:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:25:40 Georgia Hardstark? And also, the hotel throws an annual ball where many people dress up as characters from "The Shining."
1:25:45 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh!
1:25:46 Georgia Hardstark? Which happened at one of our live shows once. They dressed up as the twins.
1:25:49 Karen Kilgariff? That's right, we had twins at a live show.
1:25:51 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. And that's the story of the haunting of the Stanley Hotel.
1:25:54 Karen Kilgariff? Amazing! That was great.
1:26:01 Georgia Hardstark? Does that mean it's hometown time?
1:26:02 Karen Kilgariff? It's hometown time!
1:26:05 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. This time, we're gonna tell the rules first. Unlike we did last night, we basically set up Katie and Cassandra to fail. Oh, there's men!
1:26:14 Georgia Hardstark? It's just me for the third fucking time.
1:26:18 Georgia Hardstark? I come with news.
1:26:19 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:26:20 Georgia Hardstark? That baby moth was not the only baby in the audience tonight.
1:26:23 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:26:24 Georgia Hardstark? I saw a baby buying merch.
1:26:26 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:26:27 Georgia Hardstark? Either that or the adult the baby was with. But one of them was buying a t-shirt. Oh my god, you brought a baby!
1:26:32 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you, baby!
1:26:33 Georgia Hardstark? True Cry Podcast! That's right.
1:26:36 Karen Kilgariff? A little baby with a credit card.
1:26:39 Georgia Hardstark? All right, I'm gonna be right over there. Okay, Vince is gonna be there. Thank you.
1:26:43 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
1:26:43 Georgia Hardstark? And we have presents, too.
1:26:44 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so we're gonna do the rules really quick. We are now asking if anybody here has a hometown. We recommend that you have a hometown from Denver or Colorado. We do not recommend that you do what Katie did and get slayed by the audience. It's really unpleasant for you. Also, try to make it short, don't bring notes, do your thing, we believe in you. What's the last one?
1:27:11 Georgia Hardstark? Don't be drunk.
1:27:12 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, you can't be so drunk that you can't tell your own story, but you can be drunk.
1:27:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and we have a present for you.
1:27:21 Georgia Hardstark? Vince and I went to a pizza place last night and they had one of those cool vending machines for adults.
1:27:26 Karen Kilgariff? The clothing?
1:27:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and this one is called nostalgia kids meal toy.
1:27:30 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
1:27:31 Georgia Hardstark? So I don't know what's in it, and then there's some cookies from the... Okay.
1:27:34 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:27:35 Georgia Hardstark? All right, who has a fucking strong hometown? Okay, you with the light on you, get up here.
1:27:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, smart, that was a good idea.
1:27:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, if you're... Yep, thank you. If your friend is bold enough... Yeah, yeah, yeah, that way to Vince, right over there.
1:27:50 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, we forgot, one of the other rules was, don't point at strangers. We've had that happen a bunch of times, where people are like, "Ask her."
1:27:56 Georgia Hardstark? Sure, so the chick who lit her, if this is bad, this is on you. No, I'm good, you're fine.
1:28:03 Karen Kilgariff? Anything can happen at this show, isn't that the magic of it? It's too late, she picked someone already. It's so sad.
1:28:10 Georgia Hardstark? It sucks, though, maybe.
1:28:11 Karen Kilgariff? People just keep going like, "But maybe if I do, if I wave five more times."
1:28:14 Georgia Hardstark? I'm sorry, I hate doing that, it feels awful. If I could pick all of you, I would. Okay, here she comes, this is... I'm not gonna listen to screaming.
1:28:28 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, okay, great.
1:28:30 Georgia Hardstark? Hi, what's her name?
1:28:32 Karen Kilgariff? Christina, come over here.
1:28:33 Georgia Hardstark? Christina, come here, she's a hot dog shirt on.
1:28:35 Karen Kilgariff? Come over, come over.
1:28:37 Georgia Hardstark? I love it.
1:28:38 Karen Kilgariff? Everybody, this is Christina, be nice to her, please.
1:28:43 Georgia Hardstark? Where are you from, Christina? I'm from Colorado Springs. Great, great, we're off to a good start. What is your hometown? All right, so to start off, I'm a homicide prosecutor at the DA's office.
1:28:59 Karen Kilgariff? You did that, you did that, yeah.
1:29:01 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, fuck yeah.
1:29:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing.
1:29:05 Georgia Hardstark? You were right.
1:29:06 Karen Kilgariff? She lit it up. Christina, can I ask you a question?
1:29:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:29:11 Karen Kilgariff? Are you a fucking liar right now?
1:29:13 Georgia Hardstark? No.
1:29:14 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, great, great. I just wanted to ask.
1:29:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god, okay. So the story I want to tell is my first homicide trial.
1:29:19 Karen Kilgariff? Fuck, yes. Sit down.
1:29:23 Georgia Hardstark? So, um, the story is, um, a woman named Elizabeth Kramer, Lizzie Kramer, um, was found murdered. She was in a plastic tote box. Um, and she had been thrown off the side of Gold Camp Road, if anyone's from Colorado Springs.
1:29:39 Karen Kilgariff? She was laughing at the local reference and not the...
1:29:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, because there are a lot of bodies that are found off Gold Camp Road.
1:29:44 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, what? Really?
1:29:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. And so, obviously...
1:29:48 Karen Kilgariff? Gold Camp Road, I'm covering that on the next show.
1:29:51 Georgia Hardstark? Um, and so, um, she was actually found by three teenagers who were hiking, and it was all caught on a Snapchat video.
1:29:58 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no.
1:29:59 Georgia Hardstark? So she was found, and, um, the suspect was obviously...
1:30:05 Karen Kilgariff? You guys.
1:30:06 Georgia Hardstark? Baby daddy, but close enough. And, um, so then during the investigation, we did, um, computer searches, and he had been really smart and Googled "how to get away with murder."
1:30:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:30:19 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, who among us?
1:30:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And so, um, he was taken to trial in 2021 and convicted of first-degree murder.
1:30:25 Karen Kilgariff? Um, and that was, that's what you did, right?
1:30:28 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:30:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, thank you.
1:30:33 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
1:30:35 Georgia Hardstark? One of, one of my witnesses was one of the DNA and serology experts, and her name was Sherry Holes.
1:30:43 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, we know her.
1:30:46 Georgia Hardstark? And during a break, I was like, oh, she was talking about how she was from California. I was like, do you know Paul Holes? And she goes, "That's my husband and I..."
1:30:58 Georgia Hardstark? So that's what I did in the middle of court. And it was a little embarrassing because then she told her husband and then I met Paul later. And, yeah. He was the one, "Oh, you're the one that embarrassed yourself in front of my wife." And anyway, he is in prison for the rest of his life and the Court of Appeals affirmed that conviction, so.
1:31:20 Karen Kilgariff? Amazing, amazing.
1:31:25 Karen Kilgariff? That was a perfect hometown in every way.
1:31:30 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, Ed, there's cookies.
1:31:32 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah, cookies.
1:31:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Christina, everybody, amazing.
1:31:39 Georgia Hardstark? What's his name?
1:31:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we're not beating up. Amazing.
1:31:46 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, you guys.
1:31:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I think we're-
1:31:48 Georgia Hardstark? Denver, night two, you fucking did it.
1:31:50 Karen Kilgariff? Denver.
1:31:55 Karen Kilgariff? It was such an honor to start this tour after six years in this city with you guys. Thank you so much.
1:32:02 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. You really showed up. We fucking love it here. We appreciate you guys so much for coming and being here.
1:32:11 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, were you cueing me? Stay sexy.
1:32:16 Karen Kilgariff? Thanks, Denver. Thank you all.
1:32:20 Karen Kilgariff? Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:32:28 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right production.
1:32:30 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.
1:32:34 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Lassaveto.
1:32:36 Georgia Hardstark? This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.
1:32:38 Karen Kilgariff? Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.
1:32:41 Georgia Hardstark? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:32:44 Karen Kilgariff? And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:32:46 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:32:51 Karen Kilgariff? And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.
1:32:54 Georgia Hardstark? And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.
1:33:00 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:33:04 Karen Kilgariff? Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.
1:33:07 Georgia Hardstark? Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.
1:33:16 Karen Kilgariff? As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.
1:33:32 Georgia Hardstark? All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.
1:33:35 Karen Kilgariff? Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.
1:33:39 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:33:41 Karen Kilgariff? Halloween's almost here, and I've got plans. My first stop is Total Wine & More for cold beer, ready-to-drink cocktails, and a bottle of wine to share. And I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. P21.
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