519 - Giants of Any Kind

On today’s episode, Karen covers the heroic Ruby Bridges and Georgia tells the story of the King of Bootleggers, George Remus. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:36Speaker 02

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• 0:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, grow up, because it's almost impossible.

• 0:42Speaker 02

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• 0:45Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:54Speaker 02

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• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

  New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 1:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 1:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  That's Karen Kilkeriff.

• 1:30Karen Kilgariff?

  This is all new. It's as if it's day one.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  It feels new every time.

• 1:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't it feel fresh and new?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  I just spit on you. I'm sorry.

• 1:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you?

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you land all the way over here in my weird spot? I think it's going away, actually.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  It is going away. Let's pretend that spot is not because you've spilled something on yourself, but because I spit towards you.

• 1:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you spit all the way across the podcast at me.

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Gleek. Remember gleeking?

• 1:54Karen Kilgariff?

  There were boys in my high school that were so frighteningly accurate at gleeking, if you don't know. Gleeking is what we used to call in the eighties, very specifically directed spitting.

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  But it was, it was like from under your tongue. It happens to me all the time in the fucking dentist's chair and it's so embarrassing. I can, I gleek more than most people, never on purpose. It's so embarrassing.

• 2:18Karen Kilgariff?

  There are boys in my high school that of course were like seniors when I was a freshman or whatever, that could do it across a classroom at you.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  If I had that power.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's incredible.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Where would I be today if I had that?

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  You'd be Kenny Scelmanini, living your dream.

• 2:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I would have it. Only fans, gleeking only fans.

• 2:36Karen Kilgariff?

  People would pay top dollar.

• 2:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Gleeking and feet, that's what I've got.

• 2:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Those are your two big pluses.

• 2:42Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my only fans.

• 2:43Karen Kilgariff?

  I can whistle and be negative. Those are mine. That's my only fan.

• 2:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't whistle, so that's actually pretty impressive. Stop it. Show off. You're showing off now. You're mocking me.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Quee woo.

• 3:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, remember the quee woo? That's where that came from.

• 3:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I think Nicole's talking about re-releasing some quee woo whistles.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's right.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't all look gross. We're gonna re-release some whistles and have people buy them and we donate the money.

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, guys. Get with it.

• 3:16Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn it.

• 3:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Stop gleeking all over our fucking parade.

• 3:24Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, uh, how's it going?

• 3:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Good. I didn't, I, this was a weekend where, because I didn't have to go anywhere, travel, do anything, I literally did not do one thing.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Just rotted, but not in a negative way.

• 3:36Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I love rotting.

• 3:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I do too.

• 3:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No, like, if I have a cat on me, like, everything is fine.

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 3:46Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Cat. I had a dog in a cone for a little while. Blossom had an eye infection.

• 3:52Georgia Hardstark?

  A dog, a cat, a book would be great. I'm reading a book about, called The Husbands, where this woman has this attic that just creates new husbands every time she sends the other one back up.

• 4:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So she has an infinite amount of husbands and she's just trying to like finally fucking pick one. But they all suck in some kind of way and she's all like, maybe the next one.

• 4:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's had hundreds of husbands.

• 4:13Karen Kilgariff?

  That's funny.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good. It's like perfect sci-fi because it's just this, I love when like just, oh, this little hole opened up in the world. Nothing big.

• 4:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. This is just how it's affecting my day to day.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Husbands.

• 4:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Called The Husbands.

• 4:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's funny.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't put it down.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Um, what are you watching? Anything interesting?

• 4:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm. Listen, I don't want to be negative. I tried to-

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Don't you? Yes, you do.

• 4:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I, it's my skill. I don't want to be negative for free.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Or whistle.

• 4:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, yeah, you have to go onto my OnlyFans for that, but um, I will just keep it general and say that I tried to get into like the things that are popular and being like marketed right now. And I skimmed through many of them-

• 4:52Speaker 02

  What could it be?

• 4:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Over the weekend. And then I was just like, what am I doing?

• 4:55Speaker 02

  What could it be? Say it.

• 4:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Fine. It's the new Game of Thrones prequel spinoff-

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Seriously?

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  With the very large man. Cause you know, I'm a fan of giants of any kind.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Really?

• 5:07Karen Kilgariff?

  A big man is, I'm always-

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Oversized though? Or just like regular big? You like oversized?

• 5:13Karen Kilgariff?

  As big as possible. Robert Wadlow, the world's tallest man.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Like whether it's mass, whether it's, you know, just pure height, whether it's a personality.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  You almost like want it to be like on the like-

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  On that circus tip.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't want to say it, but like, like shockingly so.

• 5:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It just holds my attention. It's fun.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 5:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  And I love that.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm always like, what's happening over here?

• 5:43Speaker 02

  I can't look away.

• 5:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So that guy's, you know, cute and great or whatever, but I, you don't want to be a sequel or a prequel to a show like Game of Thrones.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I don't, I'm not going to watch it.

• 5:54Karen Kilgariff?

  How does, that's like having like a crazy hot older sister and then you're like, and there's me. Like there's, it's that vibe, I feel like where you're very critical of a show that like meant the world to everybody.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Right. Remember when I was in my Game of Thrones phase when I was binging it like years later?

• 6:14Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. And you were just like, what's up with this family? Like, I'm not, I'm not having this conversation with you.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Can we talk about, like, the 10 fucking years?

• 6:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you watch Begonia?

• 6:26Karen Kilgariff?

  No, what's that?

• 6:27Georgia Hardstark?

  The new movie that's like with Jesse Plemons and

• 6:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Love that guy.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And what's her name?

• 6:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Emma Stone.

• 6:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Emma Stone, thank you. You haven't watched that?

• 6:36Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 6:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Nor heard of it.

• 6:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like nominated for all these things, except Jesse Plemons fucking got completely, what's it called when they don't?

• 6:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Ignored.

• 6:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but what's it, what are they?

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Snubbed.

• 6:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Snubbed. Thank you, Molly coming in hot.

• 6:50Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, god damn it, this is easy.

• 6:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Snubbed so hard, it's such a good fucking movie. I can't believe you haven't watched it. It's like so you, you'd love it, you'll love it.

• 6:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 6:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Begonia.

• 6:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, I'll watch it.

• 7:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Not like the flower, but like this other thing.

• 7:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 7:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that was great.

• 7:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you go to the movie theater?

• 7:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely not.

• 7:07Karen Kilgariff?

  I was gonna say.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's on TV.

• 7:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 7:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And then also, if I had legs, I'd kick you. Did you watch that one?

• 7:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like you, you mentioned that to me.

• 7:15Georgia Hardstark?

  With Rose Byrne, yeah, maybe.

• 7:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 7:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Excellent.

• 7:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Will you text those to me?

• 7:20Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'll forget.

• 7:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on, cuz I'll forget.

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I'll do it.

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  The phase I'm in right now, whatever it is, and maybe I just need to get on move, current movie TikTok and that'll help me.

• 7:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I haven't heard of anything, except for apparently there was a guy that made his own horror movie that he released on YouTube and it got hugely popular and now it has like theater distribution.

• 7:43Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not the one from the dog's point of view, is it?

• 7:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think so.

• 7:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I wanna watch that one.

• 7:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Is it new?

• 7:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's newish, yeah.

• 7:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I could be wrong. It is a horror movie?

• 7:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, scary movie, but I don't think it's from YouTube.

• 7:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, okay, this one is a guy and I, dogs weren't mentioned in the one TikTok I saw about it, but it was like, this guy's changing this system or whatever.

• 8:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you're so movie oriented, although I guess you're movie theater oriented more than?

• 8:09Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what I am?

• 8:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 8:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Popcorn oriented. That's what it is. I, any excuse.

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's good that you can admit that, though.

• 8:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I'm real honest about it.

• 8:17Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the first step. With popcorn addiction.

• 8:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Please be honest about how you're using the movie theater for popcorn only.

• 8:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll watch anything.

• 8:25Georgia Hardstark?

  With popcorn?

• 8:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Big old tub, like.

• 8:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, you can get it delivered to your house.

• 8:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I did get it delivered to my house in COVID.

• 8:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That sounds right.

• 8:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I think, but it's not, it's certainly not the same.

• 8:37Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 8:37Karen Kilgariff?

  You need a really angry teenager to serve it to you. I do.

• 8:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of angry teenagers.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  There we go.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a podcast network.

• 8:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called Exactly Right Media.

• 8:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 8:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And so here are some quick highlights.

• 8:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, for example, we just launched Two-Faced John of God, which is our newest limited series podcast. And it's out right now in both English and Spanish. Very exciting. It's about a Brazilian spiritual healer and his fall from grace. We made it with a company called Adonde Media. Martina Castro is the host. We love her. If you are looking for the Spanish speaking version, the title is Dos Caras, Un de Dios.

• 9:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 9:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 9:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Please.

• 9:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm working on it.

• 9:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Please follow and subscribe or whatever the hell. It really helps the network and the podcast. Appreciate you.

• 9:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 9:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And did you know that you can now watch podcasts on Netflix?

• 9:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true.

• 9:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a thing. It's the future.

• 9:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's real.

• 9:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Hi. New episodes of My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones are now released weekly on Netflix. So your old comfort listen is now your new comfort watch. Flip that on in the background. Have a listen.

• 9:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Fold your clothes.

• 9:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Do your nails, whatever you want to do.

• 9:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And then now take right into the camera.

• 9:56Karen Kilgariff?

  We're podcasters.

• 10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That would be amazing if you could cry on Q like that.

• 10:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't even cry, not on Q.

• 10:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, but what if that was the way you could cry?

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a good idea.

• 10:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, if you're not on Netflix for some reason, or you're outside the United States, you can watch full episode videos when you join the fan cult.

• 10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:19Karen Kilgariff?

  You can also get exclusive audio and video content, of course, ad free episodes, merch store discounts, so much more. Just go to fancult.supercast.com and join today.

• 10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And if you're on the internet, why not head over to the Exactly Right Store? New items from all your favorite ERM shows have been added to the Last Chance section. Get them on sale now before they're gone.

• 10:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Forever.

• 10:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Forever. Go to ExactlyRightStore.com.

• 10:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

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• 12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Fast drying formula.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 13:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky?

• 13:22Speaker 02

  For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 13:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That's that? That's the business?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're first.

• 13:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm gonna go first. And I am going to present my story in honor of Black History Month.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 13:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Which goes with, listener, a gesture of, look at me.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 13:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at me, I'm doing this.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Presentation, love it.

• 13:48Karen Kilgariff?

  We begin in New Orleans, Louisiana, the morning of Monday, November 14th, 1960. As a six-year-old girl gets ready for her first day at her new school, the William France Elementary School, right down the street from her house. She wears a white shirt and a blue dress. And she's got a big white bow in her hair. But when she walks out the door that morning with her mother beside her, she has no idea how difficult or transformative her first day of school will be. She'll later say, quote, "There were barricades and people shouting and policemen everywhere. I thought maybe it was Mardi Gras." First grade, six years old.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Little baby.

• 14:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Except the atmosphere is not festive or light like Mardi Gras. It's hostile, it's violent, and it's all directed right at her. As this crowd screams threats and slurs and throws things, she keeps walking. Four men in suits escort her, two in the front and two in the rear, into the building. And as she passes through those front doors of William France Elementary, she not only becomes the first black student ever to attend it, but she becomes a symbol for progress and bravery in the face of racist hate. This is the true story of Ruby Bridges.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Amazing, amazing.

• 15:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I just shake my head like that. This child was a baby when she had to do this. A baby.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  So much to put on a little kid and pressure. And then imagine being such a horrible person that you hate a child.

• 15:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  Like.

• 15:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And feel justified

• 15:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Karen Kilgariff?

  In this sneering group of white assholes that are just like

• 15:28Georgia Hardstark?

  A six-year-old child. Like, what is wrong with you?

• 15:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Grab a hold of yourself.

• 15:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  So, sources used in today's research are Ruby Bridges' autobiography, Through My Eyes, and a 2022 episode of the Slight Change of Plans podcast entitled, A Six-Year-Old Changes History, which is actually from Pushkin, our friends over at Pushkin and iHeart, and a PBS American Experience article entitled, Ruby Bridges and the Integration of New Orleans Schools. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So Ruby Bridges is born in Tyler Town, Mississippi, on September 8, 1954. That's a small town in the south-central part of the state. It's not far from the border with Louisiana. And Ruby's parents and grandparents were both sharecroppers there. Ruby's mother is named Lucille, and her father's name is Aban.

• 16:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's also a Korean War vet, and Ruby is their first child. So when she's four years old, her family leaves Tyler Town and moves to New Orleans, and they land in the Upper Ninth Ward, which is a historically black, working-class neighborhood, where Aban starts working as a mechanic. And Lucille takes care of Ruby and her siblings during the day, but she also does domestic work at night to keep the household afloat. One of the Bridges' main motivators for moving to New Orleans was for, of course, better-paying work for Aban and Lucille, but also better educations for their children. Lucille had to drop out in the eighth grade to work in the fields alongside her parents. And Ruby will later describe her mom as, quote, "very determined,

• 17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  and she took education very seriously. I think it was because it was something that neither her nor my father were allowed to have, and ultimately, that's what she wanted for her kids, a better life for them," end quote. So here's some important context. The year that Ruby Bridges is born, 1954, is when the historic Brown versus Board of Education decision is handed down by the Supreme Court. And in it, the Court's nine justices unanimously determined that racial segregation in American public schools is unconstitutional. But that does not result in the quick integration of public schools, of course, especially in the southern United States. White people do everything they can to maintain the segregated status quo,

• 17:44Karen Kilgariff?

  either by ignoring the Court's decision or by intimidation tactics. Or just by making it impossible for black students to enroll at their white-only schools. So despite the court's decision, many schools remain racially segregated for years after that law is passed. This is the case in Ruby's new hometown of New Orleans, where in 1960, six years after the Brown v. Board decision, public schools have yet to integrate. Wow. So a federal judge named Skelly Wright finally orders them to do so, and if they refuse, he threatens to shut down every public school in the city. Wow. So the New Orleans School Board agrees to integrate two schools, starting with

• 18:26Karen Kilgariff?

  children entering the first grade classes there, but they set out to make it very tough for black children to enroll by requiring them to take an entrance exam that the white children do not have to take. Come on. A scholar named Joseph Dewey writes, quote, "The test was difficult, designed, critics said, to legally maintain the state's longstanding segregated education system." End quote. So it's essentially similar to the Jim Crow-era literacy tests that were explicitly designed to prevent black Americans from registering to vote, but this time it's aimed at five- and six-year-olds. The numbers vary across sources, but around 150 black children in New Orleans take this test. Only six of them pass.

• 19:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you haven't let them... Okay, sorry. Yeah. Well, because it's a scam. Yeah, totally. It's a setup. Totally. Like so many things, like sharecropping, like so many things. Yeah. It's a setup. So only six children pass. Ruby Bridges is one of those children. Wow. She has now cleared the first hurdle that's meant to prevent her from enrolling in this white school, but she's too young to really understand any of that. What she knows is that her parents are so proud of her for passing this test. Of course, her parents disagree about what to do next. Ruby's dad is hesitant about sending his little girl to a white school. He knows she will not be welcomed at all, much less with open arms, and that she could

• 19:54Karen Kilgariff?

  likely experience physical harm at the hands of racists. Ruby later writes in her autobiography, quote, "My father didn't want any part of school integration. He was a gentle man and he feared the angry segregationists that might hurt his family. Having fought in the Korean War, he experienced segregation on the battlefield, where he risked his life for his country. He didn't think things would ever change. He didn't think I would ever be treated as an equal," end quote. But Ruby's mom, Lucille, is armed with her conviction about the power of education. She is dedicated to this idea. She also knows that a historically white school will have more resources and better facilities than Ruby's current school.

• 20:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So she eventually is able to convince her husband enrolling Ruby is the right choice. So of the six black children who pass their entrance exams, only four total, including Ruby, actually enroll in these all-white schools. The other three children are also little girls, just like Ruby. Their names are Leona Tate, Gail Etienne, and Tessie Prevost. And they're assigned to the McDonough 19 Elementary School, which is in the lower ninth ward. So they're sometimes referred to now as the McDonough Three. Basically, these four little brave girls are responsible for a historical moment in the fight to integrate Southern schools. Four little six-year-old girls.

• 21:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing, wild.

• 21:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But while the McDonough Three will be attending school in the lower ninth ward together, Ruby Bridges is all alone in the upper ninth as the first and only black child in a student body made up of 500 white kids.

• 21:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 21:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So Ruby's given a start date in August of 1960, which is the beginning of the school year. But there's so much resistance to her going to this school and the integration of schools in general. Her start date keeps getting pushed until it finally lands on November 14, 1960.

• 21:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 21:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So the good news about all of this, and I never knew this, is that she, at the time, kind of didn't know what was going on.

• 22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel like six is still young enough to kind of not be aware. But like the Mardi Gras, that she thought maybe it was Mardi Gras.

• 22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 22:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Is like so heartbreaking, but also like a blessing in disguise, maybe.

• 22:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly. So essentially, Abon and Lucille have deliberately sheltered their daughter from the racism and the violence and the hostility around this school integration. And Ruby now talks about this in interviews, that it was a well-intended decision by her parents, but also maybe a misguided one. Because as this is happening, Ruby just truly is in the dark about the situation as a whole. All she knows is that her loved ones all seemed very excited about her new school. And that Monday, November 14th is her first day of first grade. And that morning feels like a holiday at her, at the Bridges House. It's noticeably different from Ruby's first day of kindergarten a year earlier.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And years later, she'll say, quote, "It was totally different. Neighbors were coming over. My mother's friends were coming to dress me for school. I had all these beautiful new things to wear."

• 23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone's so happy for her.

• 23:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and they're also just like, you're gonna, we're all gonna put in on this together.

• 23:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're all freaked out, but we're gonna make this a celebration.

• 23:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sure they're terrified.

• 23:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And then she says, "Did I feel special? Yes, I did feel very special. As a matter of fact, in my tiny six-year-old mind, remembering the test I had taken and how excited everyone was about that, I really thought I was going straight to college."

• 23:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so cute.

• 23:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly the kind of getting it wrong that we need to do more of. "I just thought it was so good. I'm going straight to college."

• 23:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Hell, yeah.

• 23:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, sorry, we're still on the quote. "I thought everybody was so excited because they had never seen a six-year-old go to college."

• 23:53Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so cute.

• 23:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so cute. End quote. So Ruby then hears a knock at the door. And when her parents open it, there are four tall, white men standing outside. They all have matching yellow bands on their arms. Ruby's so young, she doesn't question why they're here. Her parents choose not to tell her. But she'll eventually learn that they're federal marshals, who have been sent to escort Ruby to her new school.

• 24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 24:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So even though William Franz Elementary is only a couple of blocks from the Bridges House, Ruby and Lucille climb into a car with these four officers and make the short drive together. Ruby remembers looking out the rear window and seeing her neighbors walking behind the car in a show of support.

• 24:35Georgia Hardstark?

  My god.

• 24:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Community.

• 24:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That little face.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  I know.

• 24:40Karen Kilgariff?

  She assumes it's because they're excited about her going to college.

• 24:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 24:45Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn it.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  That's so sweet.

• 24:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So the car comes to a stop, they've arrived at school, and for a split second, it really does feel like Mardi Gras to Ruby. There are barricades set up, police on horseback, countless people shouting and doing what Ruby thinks is waving their hands in excitement. What she doesn't realize is they're actually throwing things and waving angry fists in the air.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  At a child because a family wants their child to be educated. Like, fucking, check yourself. Like, ask your motivations what they are.

• 25:18Karen Kilgariff?

  But they did.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  How do you, how do you get away with that in your brain?

• 25:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you're raised in it. Because it's taught to you, it's normalized to you, and it feels, it makes the bad part of what's going on inside you feel better by pushing it towards somebody else.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely not an excuse, but...

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't question anyone. You just accept things the way they come.

• 25:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Don't do that.

• 25:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So Lucille is with Ruby the entire time. So the girl and her mother are quickly ushered into the school. Those marshals lead them straight to the principal's office where Ruby is sat down and they wait to see which classroom she's going to join. And she watches through the office glass window, looking out onto the school's hallway as white adults constantly come and go. And as they leave, they're often dragging a child with them. Again, Ruby will eventually learn these are the white parents yanking their kids out of class after watching her enter the school because they cannot have or fathom the idea of a black child being taught alongside their kids. Also, all of the teachers at this grammar school leave in protest.

• 26:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is a heartbreaking sentence to read. It's just like, wow. Even the fucking teachers. Yeah. Hours pass, Ruby and Lucille are sitting in the principal's office. Because all the teachers have left, no one's there to instruct Ruby with no teacher. There's also no classroom. The principal is left trying to figure out what to do. So essentially, it's like, they passed this law, the government threatened them, they had to do it. And then they were just like, but we don't actually have to do it. There's nothing here. Yeah. So, the four marshals continue guarding the door. Ruby and Lucille sit there until the end of the day bell rings at 3pm. Wow. And she is dismissed. Ruby remembers thinking, quote, "Wow, college is easy."

• 27:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Later that evening, when Ruby's dad asks her how it all went, she tells him she had a good first day. When the national news comes on that night, the protective wall her parents have built around her begins to crack. Because there is a story about her and her first day of school on that broadcast. Oh my god. It's unclear how much of the story Ruby actually watches, but she remembers her mom looking at the TV and saying out loud, "Oh my god, what have I done?" Because of course, you're in it, right? You don't understand the scope of, and the bigness and the symbolism of all of it. Totally. So the next morning, Ruby gets up and gets ready for her second day of first grade. And those same four marshals meet her and her mother at the front door.

• 27:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And they all ride to school together. And the marshals escort them back into the elementary school. What's different today is that there are noticeably more angry white people set up outside that school. They're even more aggressive. They're throwing tomatoes and eggs at Ruby, Lucille and the marshals. But mostly at a little tiny girl. They also are yelling racial slurs and death threats, saying they'll hang Ruby or they'll poison her food. Oh my god. Ruby will say that later, she blocked out a lot of what was happening in that moment. She did not realize that mob was threatening her until years later, when she watches news footage. And essentially, it all allowed Ruby to maintain this...

• 28:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Lovely little innocent idea that she's going to college and everybody's excited for her. Her mother and the marshals, of course, take those threats very seriously. Ruby will not be allowed to eat anything from the school for the entire year. Lucille packs her daughter's lunch every single day, of course.

• 29:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, that's a detail I've never heard before. And that is just so horrific and heartbreaking.

• 29:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, to feel surrounded by this majority of people who are like, we only, like, we're going to threaten you in every way possible.

• 29:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And but I'm gonna ignore it and I'm gonna fucking still, and I'm still going to make sure my daughter gets the education she deserves. Like, that woman is so brave.

• 29:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Georgia Hardstark?

  She knew the threats, you know, Ruby didn't, but she and her husband did. And they said, we're still moving forward. Like, it's so brave.

• 29:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so brave in the face of absolute insanity.

• 29:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Just insanity. So after pushing past this angry mob again, Ruby and her mother and the marshals enter the school. But unlike day one, Ruby won't spend the entirety of the day in the principal's office. She now has a classroom assignment. So as they move through the mostly empty school, there's an eerie silence. And Ruby will later say, quote, "You could hear a pin drop when I walked up the stairs. Our footsteps echoed in the hallways," end quote. So they get to a classroom, but there's no students in it. But there is a white woman standing there. It's Ruby's new teacher, Barbara Henry. And she has immediate warmth and kindness about her.

• 30:21Karen Kilgariff?

  And as a New England native and a recent transplant to Louisiana, she also has a charming Boston accent. Again, no one explains anything to Ruby, like, why she's the only student in this class, or why her mother is sticking around for the entire school day, or why the US Marshals are still outside the classroom. And of course, no one tells Ruby that the reason Mrs. Henry is here today is because she's the one white teacher in all of New Orleans willing to instruct a black student. I mean. Shame, shame, shame. So much shame on us. Instead, Ruby simply assumes this is how college works. I love it. She's like, when do I get to go to the dorms? That's the best. This is, this is college. You get a one-on-one. And she instantly takes to Mrs. Henry.

• 31:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Ruby remembers thinking, quote, "She made me feel safe. She made school fun for me. I knew once I passed the crowd and got inside the building, I was gonna have a great day because of her. Oh. She showed me her heart, and I knew that she was different. Even though she looked like the people outside, she was different." Jesus Christ. End quote. Okay, so over the school year, Mrs. Henry creates a magical classroom experience for Ruby, and incredibly, Ruby absolutely loves going to school because of her. That's amazing. So beautiful. So basically, when they can hear the racist chants and threats inside the classroom from outside, so those people Yeah. stayed outside. They didn't have their kids in there.

• 31:51Karen Kilgariff?

  They pulled their kids out and then stood outside screaming at the school. Every day, showing up to scream at a school. Wow. To scream against progress. Yeah. So when that happens, and they can hear the mob outside, Mrs. Henry simply tells Ruby, quote, "We're going to have music today", and then puts on music to drown out the noise. Mm-hmm. So it's not that Ruby is kept safe from the horrors of this situation. And in fact, she does remember seeing people carrying a child's coffin with a black doll inside of it. Oh, my God. At one point. I've never heard that either. Yep, as a six-year-old, and it gives her recurring nightmares, of course. Oh, my God. But her mother, Lucille, who never leaves her side, tells Ruby, quote,

• 32:34Karen Kilgariff?

  "Don't worry about those people. They're crazy. They need praying for." End quote, which is very true. Yeah. As time passes, a small handful of white students trickle back into William France Elementary. Some families support integrating William France, but others re-enroll their children begrudgingly, just they had nowhere else to go. So at first, Ruby never sees these children. Uh, by design, the school's administrators try to keep her away from them, prompting Mrs. Henry to step in and confront the principal. Mrs. Henry even threatens to report the school to the federal government for continuing to disobey integration orders, which results in Ruby finally being allowed to share certain spaces, like play areas. So she could basically go outside at the same time as other kids. Yeah.

• 33:18Karen Kilgariff?

  But then Ruby has an interaction with one of these children when they're outside together. She sees a little boy. She asks him if he'd like to play with her because she can sense that he wants to, but he tells her his mom won't let him play with a black child, but he doesn't say black child. He uses a racial slur. And this is the moment where it all clicks into place. Ruby will later say, quote, "For months, I'd been trying to piece it together to figure out why the school was empty, why there are no kids that show up, why I can't just have lunch in the cafeteria. And this little boy looked at me and told me. I then realized, it's not Mardi Gras. This is not college. It's about me."

• 33:58Karen Kilgariff?

  This is obviously devastating for Ruby, but she does have a support system around her, like her devoted and courageous mom, Lucille, but also a Harvard-educated child psychologist named Dr. Robert Coles, who is so disgusted by reports of Ruby being harassed as she walks into school that he reaches out and offers counseling for her and her family. Wow. He provides weekly sessions with them for that entire year. Wow. So he just steps in and is like, okay, let's get through this. Yeah. And of course, there's Ruby's teacher, Mrs. Barbara Henry. In fact, to this day, Ruby and Mrs. Henry, 20 years her senior, are still very close. Ruby has said, quote,

• 34:40Karen Kilgariff?

  "The beauty of it all is that I made a friend at six years old that I am still friends with today." Oh, stop. She's still my best friend. Oh, my God. End quote. Just think about that part. Ruby Bridges is still alive and she's in, I believe, her early 70s. Yeah. Very young woman. Yeah. Who went through this. Yeah. This is not the past, the distant past that, oh, we've come so far. It's like, this just happened to this woman. So when Ruby returns to William France Elementary for second grade, things are different because now there are eight other black students in the first grade. Hmm. But Ruby, who's now seven, arrives expecting the same setup as the year before,

• 35:20Karen Kilgariff?

  a one-on-one classroom led by Mrs. Henry. Instead, she's in an all-white class and her new teacher is one of the teachers who quit in protest the year before. And this teacher constantly belittles and embarrasses Ruby, particularly when she pronounces certain words with a tinge of Mrs. Henry's Boston accent. Ruby described her second grade experience as being, quote, "almost like somebody clapped their hands and the carriage was gone and it turned into a pumpkin." Dude. And she's there all by herself. Yeah. Everything Ruby has experienced is isolating and traumatizing, but she doesn't feel like she has many people she can talk to about it. Dr.

• 36:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Coles has since moved away from Louisiana and Ruby's parents are experiencing aversion of the fallout themselves. Aban and Lucille lose their jobs amidst all the coverage and the uproar around Ruby's going to William France School. Right. And even her sharecropper grandparents are evicted off their land in Mississippi. Wow. Because of it. Oh, my god. The NAACP steps in to support the Bridges family, but it all puts such a huge strain on Aban and Lucille's marriage that they eventually separate. And on top of everything else, Ruby feels further isolated by the total lack of recognition by the city about what's happened to her and her family. She will later say, quote, "The city didn't want to talk about it or deal with it.

• 36:45Karen Kilgariff?

  The whole country had watched how adults behaved in front of a six-year-old. Nobody wanted to relive that." Wow. End quote. So, life just goes on. The days pass. Ruby gets older. And without any outside acknowledgement or validation of her own experience, this becomes very difficult for Ruby to fully process everything that's happened. Right. She's one of the first children to integrate New Orleans schools, but she starts to see this as a very personal thing, not something that has real significance in the world beyond her neighborhood in New Orleans. Fast forward to the early 70s. Ruby's about 17 years old. And around this time, a journalist approaches her and asks for an interview because of

• 37:29Karen Kilgariff?

  a recently published painting by the famous artist Norman Rockwell. It's just run as a centerfold in Look magazine. It's titled, quote, "The Problem We All Live With." God. And here is that painting, if you've never seen it. Yeah. Oh.

• 37:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's, yeah.

• 37:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And there she is.

• 37:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It just gives you chills, the tomato thrown against the wall. I mean, it's just.

• 37:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I'll read this for the listeners who aren't watching. Rockwell's painting depicts a young black girl in pigtails clutching her schoolbooks, surrounded by four US marshals that tower over her. A tomato has been hurled at the wall behind them, its blood red juices drip down to the sidewalk, and a slur is written on the wall. But the little girl continues marching forward, her head held high. When the reporter insists that this is Norman Rockwell's depiction of her, Ruby Bridges, Ruby can't believe it. Here's what she said about that whole situation. "Up until that moment, I didn't think anyone remembered or cared or that it even mattered. I wasn't aware that it was important enough for this very famous artist to paint an amazing painting

• 38:36Karen Kilgariff?

  about it. I did not realize that my walk, my story, was a part of a much bigger family, the civil rights family, the civil rights movement. I didn't realize it until that moment."

• 38:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 38:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That idea that it's basically, she has her whole education arc, basically. She's about to graduate from high school when, when this painting comes out and this all happens.

• 39:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's when she realizes it's so like life.

• 39:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Where like, you go through this really hard, horrible thing, and like, yeah, life just goes on, because that's kind of how it works.

• 39:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And sometimes people are there to kind of help you through the hard thing, but ultimately you are on your own and you kind of march on.

• 39:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and you don't realize the gravity of the important things that happen to you until you're past them. And maybe that's for the best, because it's so hard to, you know.

• 39:30Karen Kilgariff?

  To be processing that.

• 39:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, in real time.

• 39:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But then someone is like, hey, this is an unbelievable thing that actually happened. Do you want to, let's all look at it.

• 39:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible. So Ruby graduates from high school, she takes a job as a travel agent, and then she goes and sees the world.

• 39:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 39:47Karen Kilgariff?

  She then gets married, she has four children. And then in the 1990s, when she's in her 40s, her old child psychiatrist, Dr. Robert Coles, publishes a children's book about her entitled The Story of Ruby Bridges.

• 40:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 40:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It introduces countless more people to her historic tenure at William France Elementary. And what follows is a Disney biopic in 1998 for which Ruby is a consultant. And then President Clinton awards her the Presidential Citizens Medal in 2001. Wow, I didn't know that. I didn't either. And then, when President Barack Obama was in office, he invites her to come to the Oval Office so that they can meet. Ruby has talked about how nervous she was when she met him, saying, quote, "He walked over to me and I extended my hand and said, 'It's such an honor to meet you.' And when I did this, he put both hands on his hips and looked at me and said, 'Are you kidding me? I'm getting a hug.'" Aww. And he threw his arms around me and said, "I cannot begin to tell you what an

• 40:45Karen Kilgariff?

  honor it is to welcome you into this White House." Bring it back. Come on, I mean, did it ever happen? Over the years, Ruby has written several books and even established her own organization, the Ruby Bridges Foundation, which sets out to, quote, "offer programs and resources to guide and support younger generations on their pathway toward a more peaceful and harmonious future," end quote. Every year, they help organize commemorative Walk to School Days across the United States, which honor her historic first steps into William France Elementary and keep the history of hard-fought school integration alive. Ruby's mom, Lucille, dies of cancer in 2020. Wow. She lived a good, long life. Yeah. She was 86 years old.

• 41:30Karen Kilgariff?

  She was a fierce advocate for education throughout her life, telling children to, quote, "Study, listen to what their teachers tell them and their mothers and their fathers. After they get their education, they can be any person they want to be, doctors, lawyers, or anything, but you have to have that education. And I would love for them to just listen to my story so they can know how hard it was for my kids to go to school." Yeah, wow, like, don't take it for granted. Yeah, have some sort of appreciation. Yeah. Ruby, meanwhile, is now in her early 70s. After Lucille's death, she wrote a statement saying, quote, "Today, our country lost a hero, brave, progressive, a champion for change.

• 42:11Karen Kilgariff?

  She helped alter the course of so many lives by setting me out on my path as a six-year-old little girl. Our nation lost a mother of the civil rights movement today, and I lost my mom. I love you and I'm grateful for you. May you rest in peace." And that's the story of Ruby Bridges, whose bravery and intelligence changed history in America.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 42:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Can we see the picture of her?

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, she's so tiny.

• 42:38Karen Kilgariff?

  She's a tiny, tiny little girl.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Look at those little shoes and socks and her little face.

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I would love to know what those men are fucking thinking.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  I was totally wondering the same thing, like what.

• 42:54Karen Kilgariff?

  How do you stand around a little girl that's going, that's having, having that kind of hatred and then go, these are the reasonable people.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:02Karen Kilgariff?

  In any way.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  Or not have some compassion if you hadn't had any before for what she's going through.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I mean, they would have to.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'd hope. Amazing. Oh, my God. Great job.

• 43:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't that insane?

• 43:13Speaker 02

  That's insane. I'm so glad you did that for Black History Month.

• 43:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

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  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime. Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula. Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed. I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like it actually is that easy. And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like what more do you want? How dare you call my feet stinky? For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Goodbye. Let's go on a completely different trajectory. As we do. This isn't that at all. No, nor should it be. And it won't be. We always, it's two different stories every time. That's right. What we do is we're like lemon lime. We come in, we're like, do you like this flavor? We're changing the flavor. Totally. Keep it fresh. We're for everybody. We try to make sure we're for everybody. Right. And, and by doing so, alienate most of those people.

• 46:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not true. If you don't like us, it's okay.

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't know, because you're not here.

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Good point.

• 46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 46:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Unless you're my mom, who started fucking.

• 46:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, Janet, listen.

• 46:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Being on Netflix has made her finally able to listen to the podcast. Like, that's the only way she's been able to understand podcasts.

• 46:45Karen Kilgariff?

  She, that's the only way she can access it.

• 46:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 46:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Now she has notes.

• 46:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably, yeah. She said something, "I love the way you..." I don't remember. Do you want to, can I read you the text?

• 46:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Is it backhanded?

• 46:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. You tell me. I don't think so.

• 46:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:59Georgia Hardstark?

  She said, "I finished watching your first episode. It was great. You and Karen have a gift of making the audience feel a personal part of the conversation. Relaxed, fun, open, and honest." Oh, and then is it, "So you put Mimi down? My condolences." I have not put Mimi down.

• 47:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That was a great parental text about, oh.

• 47:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 47:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she's fine.

• 47:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. She can get in there sometimes with the hardcore mothering.

• 47:27Karen Kilgariff?

  She can say the words correctly, for sure. She knows those lines.

• 47:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:31Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure. That was really nice.

• 47:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it was.

• 47:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Fun, casual, oh.

• 47:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, your cat's dead.

• 47:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, that isn't true, though.

• 47:42Georgia Hardstark?

  No, she, Mimi's still alive. Jesus, I don't know how much longer, but with pure spite and anger at the dog and cats, she's fucking living. Okay.

• 47:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, today's story I actually found out about from some listeners named Gavin and Anna, who wrote in a really great email, but it gives the whole story away, so I'm not going to read it.

• 48:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  But one of them, I can't tell which, is a jazz historian and who studies the music of the 1920s. And so that's how they know about the story. I had never heard about it, even though this person that I'm going to tell you about today, in a lot of ways, had a bigger racket going than even Al Capone.

• 48:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:19Georgia Hardstark?

  But I haven't heard of him before. He was a character in the second season of Boardwalk Empire.

• 48:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And I wonder if you know who it is, because this is a very large human being, played by Glenn Flechler, who was, I don't want to spoil, I don't want to spoil True Detective from fucking eight seasons ago.

• 48:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 48:38Georgia Hardstark?

  But he was the main guy.

• 48:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, yes.

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And he plays like that perfect, like, bad guy. He just looks like a fucking old-school gangster.

• 48:45Karen Kilgariff?

  He does. And he, I think he was doing the kind of dead-eye thing.

• 48:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Where he was very scary.

• 48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, everything he's been in, like, he's been in Joker, he's been in all, everything he's been in is like, dark.

• 48:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 48:57Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  God forbid I say the, the name Kevin Spacey, but it's like, he's that new kind of like,

• 49:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm the character actor that you think a real guy walked on set and started

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Asking questions.

• 49:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And the moment you see me on screen, you know, I'm fucking, I'm here for trouble.

• 49:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Some shit's going down.

• 49:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So that is who I'm telling you about today. This is a story about a 1920s bootlegger named George Remus, the so-called king of bootleggers.

• 49:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And an eventual murder.

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 49:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That he committed. Okay. So the main sources I used for this story are reporting from the Chicago Tribune and an article from American Heritage Magazine by Bob Bachelor. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. Okay. So most of these stories start with a guy being born into tough circumstances and embracing crime early on, but that's not exactly how it seems to go for our George. Though his family doesn't have much money, he does start out mostly on the straight and narrow. He's born in 1876 in Germany. The family immigrates to the United States when George is still pretty young and they move around for a few years and then they settle in Chicago. And so when George is a teenager, his father gets sick. So George starts to support the family by working at

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  his uncle's pharmacy. Eventually he becomes a pharmacist himself, but in his early twenties, he decides to become a lawyer. So like, I feel like these things were probably easier to become back then. He was like, I want to be a pharmacist. I want to be a lawyer.

• 50:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It sounds a little bit like people, kids playing at a birthday party or something where it's like.

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like one of those like, like mail in for your, for your certificate of authenticity of being a pharmacist. You know what I mean? To like one of those like schools.

• 50:37Karen Kilgariff?

  For the lawyer one, you just have to keep on mailing in over and over.

• 50:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like where Saul Goodman went to law school.

• 50:43Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 50:44Georgia Hardstark?

  It's harder now, I think.

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Draw this turtle. You're a lawyer.

• 50:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. He graduates from law school around the time he's 24 and he becomes a criminal defense attorney. In a lot of contemporary discussions about George, he's presented as a respected defense attorney, but if you delve into some of the news stories from when he was practicing, it seems like he used tactics that other lawyers considered unethical. If not straight up illegal. So he wasn't the good guy that you that all lawyers usually are.

• 51:17Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're a lawyer, that's like, I'm not that into the law.

• 51:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Then yeah, there's there's some problems.

• 51:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So in 1914, when George is in his mid 30s, he gains nationwide fame by becoming the first lawyer ever to use a defense of, quote, "transitory insanity." Which in today's money.

• 51:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Temporary insanity.

• 51:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. So he's the first fucking dude to do that. Who knew? That case involves the murder of a woman by her husband allegedly over an affair. George claims his client named W.C. Ellis did kill his wife, but has no memory of the event. And the defense actually works. Ellis is acquitted. So that same case involves some level of unethical conduct. Before a verdict is reached, George claims that his client had been offered a bribe from his wife's family. Like, it's just a bunch of bullshit that he uses in court. And we don't really know what's true and what's not true, if he's stretching the truth or not. He probably is. Regardless, George is known around the Chicago courthouse as crying Remus,

• 52:19Georgia Hardstark?

  because he's known for his impassioned speeches, wild stories, and his flair for the dramatic. That's all you need to be a lawyer, right?

• 52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I think it's mostly acting.

• 52:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And.

• 52:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Theater major, then go to, uh, what's it called, law school?

• 52:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to law school. I mean, you could do it. You'd cry non cue.

• 52:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 52:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you could do it.

• 52:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Since that's my thing, cry non cue.

• 52:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all you need.

• 52:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And I love school so much.

• 52:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you love school and homework and crying on cue.

• 52:44Georgia Hardstark?

  So the other lawyers don't like it, but juries eat it up. So in 1899, when, back when he was about 23, he had married a woman named Lillian Clough. They have two daughters. And actually, one of the daughters, her name Romella, she becomes a child actress in silent films and plays Dorothy in the silent version of The Wizard of Oz. Total aside.

• 53:06Karen Kilgariff?

  That was Romella Clough? I love her work.

• 53:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That was George Remus's daughter? Who knew?

• 53:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Romella is one of the worst, uh, young names I've ever heard.

• 53:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Romella, it sounds like a fucking.

• 53:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Something you'd get inoculated from. That's wild.

• 53:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Romella, Romella, yeah.

• 53:23Karen Kilgariff?

  R O M R U?

• 53:24Georgia Hardstark?

  R O M O L A. Romella.

• 53:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Romella.

• 53:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 53:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Still sucks.

• 53:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Not great.

• 53:30Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Okay. By early 1919, George is in his early.

• 53:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Here come the emails.

• 53:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, right? And now they're from Netflix, too, like. Not just.

• 53:38Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, I'm over here in wherever that name would be from.

• 53:42Georgia Hardstark?

  This is Ramella Smith. How dare you?

• 53:44Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you?

• 53:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a family name.

• 53:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Why? Everyone likes this name.

• 53:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I won best name three years in a row.

• 53:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Where?

• 53:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, by early 1919, George is in his early 40s and he's extremely well known in Chicago. One night in Evanston, the suburb just north of Chicago, a plumber, okay, this is weird. A plumber named Herbert Young goes to the house of a divorced woman named Augusta Imogene Holmes. Great names. Who mostly, she goes by Imogene. Imogene's teenage daughter Ruth has lost her watch and Imogene has said she'll give a reward to whoever finds it. And so Herbert, the plumber finds it. But once he's there, he and Imogene get into an argument about how much the reward should be. And this turns into a physical altercation with the man who was there with Imogene. And this man turns out to be George Remus.

• 54:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Basically, this whole episode makes the papers and reveals that George, who again is pretty famous, is having an affair with Imogene and has been for the past five years.

• 54:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, so she gets into a fight so bad with this guy not giving him the reward because he found her daughter's watch?

• 54:54Georgia Hardstark?

  That it makes the papers.

• 54:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It makes the fucking papers.

• 54:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And his wife sees in the papers, like, what are you doing at this woman's house?

• 55:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's a lawyer, but he is not able to get her to stop that fight.

• 55:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Or handle it.

• 55:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 55:06Georgia Hardstark?

  His wife, Lillian, goes to visit Imogene and gets her to admit to the affair. So Lillian's like, fuck this shit and says to the Chicago Tribune, quote, "I told her I didn't want him. You may keep the rubbish."

• 55:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  End quote.

• 55:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Snap, snap, snap, snap, snap.

• 55:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Have my fucking leftovers, bitch.

• 55:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Buy and enjoy.

• 55:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So they get divorced and George remarries Imogene. So this brings us to 1920, when the 18th Amendment and the Volstead Act prohibit the production, importation, transportation and sale of alcohol in the US.

• 55:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Cheers.

• 55:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Pretty much as soon as prohibition goes into effect, George starts representing clients who are being charged with the illegal production, transportation, and sale of alcohol. He's just like-

• 55:51Karen Kilgariff?

  He gets right into that business.

• 55:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He's like, "Let's do this." He immediately notices how much money these people he is defending are making, and it has to be a very impressive sum because as a lawyer, George had been making about $500,000 a year in 1920s money.

• 56:07Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 56:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Half a million a year in 1920 money? Is how much until today?

• 56:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's like over 100 years ago.

• 56:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Half a million dollars.

• 56:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So would he be now making $30 million a year?

• 56:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Eight million.

• 56:23Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn it.

• 56:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I'm sorry.

• 56:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I always go way over.

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It's impossible.

• 56:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a personality flaw, is what it is.

• 56:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet the jazz historians would know.

• 56:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like, "Ha ha, we knew and you didn't."

• 56:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And so George realizes that he's uniquely suited to a career in bootlegging for two reasons. The first is that he's a lawyer, is very comfortable finding loopholes, right? Even ones that are a little bit in the gray area. And the second is that his first career was as a pharmacist, and he's already found one such loophole allowing the sale of liquor for medicinal purposes.

• 56:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh.

• 56:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you know that?

• 57:00Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, during prohibition, you could buy alcohol from your pharmacist if a doctor had prescribed it for you.

• 57:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 57:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. But like, good alcohol too, because it had to be pure strength. It couldn't be bathtub gin. They got it from actual distilleries. So like-

• 57:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 57:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you remember the first time you went to a weed doctor to get your weed card? I was so terrified that the SWAT team was gonna come in.

• 57:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I actually didn't go inside. I stood on the outside and I made somebody else go in.

• 57:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You didn't get your own?

• 57:29Karen Kilgariff?

  No. I was scared to death.

• 57:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Arrest her.

• 57:32Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you can't prove it, I didn't do anything.

• 57:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I was terrified.

• 57:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it was horrifying.

• 57:36Georgia Hardstark?

  So funny.

• 57:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It was very like, when you grow up under that thing of like-

• 57:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  "This is the thing, this is how bad it is," or "this is how," whatever.

• 57:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And then you're just like, "Oh yeah, drugs." And then it's like, nowadays, it's like weed.

• 57:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, basically, smoking. No one cares.

• 57:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody cares, but it was so scary and I didn't even like smoke weed. I just kind of wanted some gummies. I don't know.

• 58:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Just want to be a part of things.

• 58:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I just, I really did want to go into a weed store too, like, or, because you couldn't, you can't go in one, or you couldn't go in one without the card. And I was so curious about what it looked like inside.

• 58:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. Everyone I knew was like, how do you get a card? And then I remember when I had my seizures, my neurologist was like, oh, that's like, that's actually good for that.

• 58:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Like you, I can recommend it. Where I'm just like, oh, I don't, my name will be on the list.

• 58:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought my name would be on the list.

• 58:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I was so afraid to be in trouble with the government.

• 58:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And look at us now.

• 58:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at it now. Can you imagine?

• 58:31Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 58:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Being worried about that list?

• 58:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not the list you need, we need to be worried about.

• 58:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Jesus Christ.

• 58:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Blah, blah, blah. Da, da, da, da, da.

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Gamergate was absolutely fabricated by Steve Bannon, who just fucking made the whole thing up.

• 58:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Pizza Gate too.

• 58:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Pizza Gate, QAnon. I mean, obviously, but.

• 58:50Georgia Hardstark?

  They ate humans.

• 58:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It didn't, it isn't real.

• 58:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So George and Imogen moved to Cincinnati, Ohio, for the practical reason that the vast majority of the whiskey produced in the US is produced within 300 miles of Cincinnati. Did you know that?

• 59:04Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 59:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Cincinnati. I hardly knew you. So he starts buying distilleries and legally provides what's called bonded whiskey, meaning that it has government stamp of approval, that it's not going to fucking make you go blind. It's not, it's not diluted.

• 59:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So smart.

• 59:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. It's not diluted or adulterated in any way. So that's what should be sold for medicinal purposes. Needless to say, because of that, George's product is very popular. But there is an issue of him only being able to sell it for medicinal use. So George is supposed to be wholesaling this liquor to other pharmacists, but that's a much smaller market than leisure drinkers. So he's like, fuck all y'all.

• 59:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:42Georgia Hardstark?

  He gets around that by basically like getting his whiskey stolen by his employees and then like confiscated by the police, both of which he pays off.

• 59:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 59:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So like-

• 59:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He basically launders the liquor.

• 59:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 59:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. In just a year or two, he's running a massive operation with 3,000 employees. And he's the source of one-seventh of the whiskey sold in the United States under prohibition.

• 1:00:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:00:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Within the first three years of being in business, George makes about $40 million.

• 1:00:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Dang.

• 1:00:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Which in today's money-

• 1:00:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking A.

• 1:00:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So we were at half a million in, back then, and that was eight million. So 40 million.

• 1:00:24Karen Kilgariff?

  31 million.

• 1:00:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It sucks, man. Like, I just don't know how to tell you, but 648 million.

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, I said less than what you said.

• 1:00:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Go again. I did that. I did that on stage, remember? And everyone laughed and laughed.

• 1:00:40Karen Kilgariff?

  What it is, is you start getting obsessed with the number.

• 1:00:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, I have to pick a good number.

• 1:00:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but she can't. You don't really listen.

• 1:00:48Karen Kilgariff?

  648 million dollars is what he's making off of this enterprise. He's basically the 20s, uh, kinda Elon Musk-type of guy.

• 1:00:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:01:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Where he's like, going into the "you don't need that much money" area.

• 1:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And actually, they use that money, George and Imogen, who's like, younger and pretty than, you know, she's like- Actually, I have a photo of her.

• 1:01:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:01:12Georgia Hardstark?

  She's very glamorous. She looks like the woman from the show with the weed. She sold the weed.

• 1:01:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Mary Louise Parker?

• 1:01:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Mary Louise Parker, doesn't she? Like, a young Mary Louise Parker.

• 1:01:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't see it.

• 1:01:24Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's young and glamorous and beautiful.

• 1:01:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's a funny thing is, so this is from like, 1920.

• 1:01:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:32Karen Kilgariff?

  They basically have her in a three-quarter turn away from the camera.

• 1:01:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, what's up with the other side of her face?

• 1:01:37Karen Kilgariff?

  What's happening, or the outfit, or anything. It's just like, is this back before photographers understood that, like, you could see everything in the picture?

• 1:01:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe they're like, she had the most beautiful profile, west of the Missis- I don't know what's west of the Mississippi, but- But you know, so he kinda got himself a, some arm candy.

• 1:01:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause you know, she's younger and they move into a beautiful mansion.

• 1:01:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I have to stop you. Do you know that thing where it's like, is this an old woman or a young woman? That's literally exactly what she looks like, especially cause I don't have my glasses on.

• 1:02:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it an old hag or is it a young beauty?

• 1:02:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause she has something on her chin and then there's that feather.

• 1:02:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. It's very distracting. Like, is this the blank space or is this the blank space?

• 1:02:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Exactly. Is it a rabbit or a duck? I can't tell.

• 1:02:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Send in drawing of it to get your law degree.

• 1:02:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Law degree.

• 1:02:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So they throw these like lavish parties at their beautiful mansion in Cincinnati. They throw this huge party, New Year's Eve, when it's about to be 1922. They dedicate their brand new indoor swimming pool in the basement of their mansion. So they're fucking totally Elon Musk-ing it up.

• 1:02:44Karen Kilgariff?

  They have money to burn.

• 1:02:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And Imogen wears a scandalous bathing suit, which is like crazy for back then.

• 1:02:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It was to the knee.

• 1:02:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, covered only half her face. Waitress is dressed in all white, passed around champagne and whiskey. And at the end of the night as a party favor, so it's said that each woman leaves with a pair of diamond earrings and every man leaves with a diamond pin. There's also rumors that it was actually a diamond necklace or a watch. And then there are some rumors that each party guest leaves with a car.

• 1:03:15Georgia Hardstark?

  In the like early twenties.

• 1:03:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:03:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. But they are very generous with their friends who probably don't need the fucking money anyways. And it's said that George is one of the bootleggers who inspired F. Scott Fitzgerald's J. Gatsby.

• 1:03:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That makes sense.

• 1:03:29Georgia Hardstark?

  It's obvious as to why, right?

• 1:03:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Georgia Hardstark?

  But the good times don't last. Between 1922 and 1925, George is arrested multiple times and is convicted of tax evasion. He doesn't get any long prison sentences, probably because he bribes the authorities. But that comes to an end in 1925 when he's convicted of thousands of violations of the Volstead Act. And he's sentenced to two years in prison. Want some picture of him?

• 1:03:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh yeah. He has his back to the camera, just fully turned around. Oh, there he is. Actually, that actor looks so much like him. He has like light eyes like that and he's very scary in that show.

• 1:04:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And he plays him in Boardwalk Empire and you can see why.

• 1:04:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:04:12Karen Kilgariff?

  This guy takes no shit.

• 1:04:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God. Don't come near him with your shit.

• 1:04:16Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no. He's, none for him.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  You think he's sharing custody with his wife, his first wife with the kids?

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  Hell no.

• 1:04:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Taking them to like, you know, the carnival on the weekends? No.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:04:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I guarantee you, he's not taking his kids miniature golfing like my dad did.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  He, no, he would hire, like, two, two goons would take the kids miniature golfing.

• 1:04:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that guy's serious.

• 1:04:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, don't get on his bad side.

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  I kind of can't stop staring at him now.

• 1:04:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Don't get on his bad side, except someone does. While he's serving his sentence of two years in prison, another inmate befriends him. And George eventually tells this man that his wife, Imogene, is in control of his still very vast fortune. And it turns out that that inmate is actually an undercover agent from the Attorney General's office named Franklin Dodge.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  You must, like, when people talk to you in prison, it must be such a, just a whirlwind of emotions.

• 1:05:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Because you're like, it'd be great to have someone to talk to.

• 1:05:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I trust this dude, he's been around here, he told me what he did, I'll tell him what I did.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  We're sharesies, sharesies, and now it's like, you use me.

• 1:05:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Keep your mouth shut.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  Zip it. Nothing's real, there's no real friendship in prison.

• 1:05:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 1:05:31Speaker 02

  Except for those, when they bring in those dogs.

• 1:05:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Or the cats, too. There's, don't get the cats, when they have the prisoners rehabilitate the dogs and cats, and then they get adopted out.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  It is so beautiful.

• 1:05:42Georgia Hardstark?

  If you have an ex-prison rehabilitated dog or cat, please write us in and tell us everything.

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 1:05:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  That's such a good idea.

• 1:05:50Georgia Hardstark?

  MyFavoriteMurderatgmail, we need to know about that. That's a weird fucking request. Okay.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:05:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So Franklin Dodge, instead of going to his boss with the information he gets from George, he resigns from his position and fucking woos and begins having an affair with Imogene.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:06:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So I don't have a photo of him, but he must have been sexy as fuck.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  And bold.

• 1:06:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And bold.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Brave.

• 1:06:12Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like, instead of my job, I'm gonna go.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Fuck your wife.

• 1:06:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck your wife! While George is in prison, Imogene sells off almost his entire empire, including the house, and gives George $100 of the proceeds. Ooh. Once he's released from prison, Imogene attempts to have him murdered by a hitman. But the hitman worries about going against George, who of course has a lot of connections in the underworld. So he instead tells George about the plot. Good. Well. Oh. In the fall of 1927, Imogene files for divorce from George. And on his way to the courthouse to finalize the divorce, George has his driver chase Imogene's car, which she's in with, riding in with her daughter Ruth, the watch chick from before. Right.

• 1:07:01Georgia Hardstark?

  And eventually, George jumps out of the car and Imogene takes off running. And in the street, with onlookers watching in shock, George shoots Imogene in the stomach, and she dies at the hospital. Oh, my God. Yeah. George immediately goes to the police station. He gets in another car and he goes straight to the police station and turns himself in. And he's charged with Imogene's murder. And the case goes to trial in December of that same year. George represents himself with the assistance of another lawyer. The trial is- Oh, he is a lawyer. That's right, yeah, so. I forgot. The trial is, as you would guess, a massive sensation and the courthouse is packed. George's first wife and daughter testify on his behalf,

• 1:07:44Georgia Hardstark?

  while his stepdaughter Ruth, who had been at the scene, testifies against him. George's defense: temporary insanity. God. It's like he was setting it up that whole time, so he could use it. Yeah. He delivers his own defense with his trademark histrionics. Men are so emotional. You know what I mean? They can't handle anything. He tells, like, his dramatic retelling of the story. It's basically the same kind of song and dance he did to get his clients off. Mm-hmm. And it works for George, too, after only 19 minutes of deliberation. The jury finds him not guilty for reasons of insanity.

• 1:08:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:08:23Georgia Hardstark?

  This means that George will have to go to a psychiatric hospital where prosecutors try to make him stay. Like, they try to get him to stay there a long time because they're like, this guy tried to kill his wife. Like, let's get him stuck here. But here's what's so crazy. They had gone to such great lengths to prove that he wasn't insane, that they couldn't then prove he wasn't, make him stay.

• 1:08:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:08:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Isn't that like, that seems like a double entendre. What's the thing?

• 1:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Double indemnity or whatever?

• 1:08:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, like, that seems ironic.

• 1:08:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, it seems like that should be, if you get off on that, like, technicality or whatever.

• 1:09:00Georgia Hardstark?

  There should be a sentence.

• 1:09:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because it's the prosecution's job to try to make it.

• 1:09:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:09:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Prove that he wasn't crazy. So then, what, it's like, then you're like, ah, you should have never brought that up.

• 1:09:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:09:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, this isn't a family fight at Christmas.

• 1:09:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And then, like, also, that doesn't mean that he's, like, cured and you can just let him go and he won't do it again.

• 1:09:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:09:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And so George is released from the psychiatric hospital after only seven months.

• 1:09:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, we also have to remind everybody, he has all the money in the world.

• 1:09:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's probably has a lot to do with it, too.

• 1:09:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Where he's like, I'm not going to be staying here. I have money.

• 1:09:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Once he's released, George marries his longtime secretary, a woman named Blanche Watson. Great name. They move across the Ohio River to Covington, Kentucky, and George lives a quiet life there, running a small contracting business, which he runs until 1950, when he suffers a stroke and he dies two years later at the age of 66.

• 1:09:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:09:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And that is the story of the king of bootleggers, George Remus.

• 1:10:01Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn.

• 1:10:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you ever heard of this guy?

• 1:10:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Never heard of him. And he had, like, six different jobs and ends as a contractor?

• 1:10:09Georgia Hardstark?

  What does that mean? Like, what was he really?

• 1:10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  A builder. But like.

• 1:10:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, but like, do you think that?

• 1:10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I think he's just a boss. I think he's good at bossing people around.

• 1:10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's probably just like, get five guys and we'll figure out a way to build this house.

• 1:10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:10:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's me fully guessing.

• 1:10:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm shedding something and I'm, it's worrying me.

• 1:10:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Where do you think it's coming off of you?

• 1:10:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, there's, I mean, therein lies the.

• 1:10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  What color is it?

• 1:10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It's white.

• 1:10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh. That could be blossom. Yeah, just do a little dandruff test and see what comes off of there.

• 1:10:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Anything.

• 1:10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  I think this is just how it is.

• 1:10:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. All right.

• 1:10:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's my arm.

• 1:10:45Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why you have to spill your diet coke.

• 1:10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you have our makeup on?

• 1:10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:10:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You're just like big, long, white streaks.

• 1:10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's really gross.

• 1:10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  My full body makeup's coming off. I don't know why.

• 1:10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's Netflix, baby. I gotta wear full body makeup now.

• 1:11:01Karen Kilgariff?

  We've gone absolutely insane.

• 1:11:03Georgia Hardstark?

  We truly have.

• 1:11:04Karen Kilgariff?

  For Netflix.

• 1:11:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, thanks for listening, everyone.

• 1:11:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks for watching.

• 1:11:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks for watching our podcast and listening to our video.

• 1:11:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  We're with you.

• 1:11:12Georgia Hardstark?

  We are. We appreciate you. Thank you guys for tuning in here.

• 1:11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, thanks for tuning in and stay sexy.

• 1:11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:11:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 1:11:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lasevato.

• 1:11:41Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:11:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

• 1:11:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:11:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:11:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:11:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

• 1:11:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.

• 1:12:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:12:08Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:12:14Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  A cute, like, flowy dress and a pair of clogs is so timeless.

• 1:12:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And we got to get some of these clogs. I couldn't believe how cute and comfortable these Reef clogs were. They have the arch support, they have the height, they give you a little bit of height. But they're kind of simple. Check out the clogs on reef.com and redeem 15% off your first purchase.

• 1:12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:12:40Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:12:45Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:12:51Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:12:54Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:12:59Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:13:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:13:07Speaker 00

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• 1:13:51Speaker 00

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• 1:14:04Karen Kilgariff?

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