517 - Two-Faced: John of God

This week, Karen and Georgia sit down with journalist, podcast producer and Adonde Media founder Martina Castro to talk about Exactly Right’s newest limited series, Two-Faced: John of God. They discuss how a Brazilian spiritual leader built a global following by claiming to perform miraculous medical procedures — and what happened when the truth behind his empire began to emerge. Two-Faced: John of God premieres Wednesday, February 4th, with new episodes in both English and Spanish released every Wednesday. The six-episode limited series is produced by Exactly Right Media and Adonde Media. Este podcast también está disponible en español — búsquenlo como Dos Caras: Juan de Dios. Follow, rate and review Two-Faced: John of God or Dos Caras: Juan de Dios wherever you get your podcasts. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:34Speaker 02

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• 1:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello and welcome

• 1:28Georgia Hardstark?

  to My Favorite Murder.

• 1:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And today, we are very excited. We have an amazing journalist, producer, educator who is here with us. She is the co-founder of NPR's Radio Ambulante, and she heads her own multilingual podcast production company, Adonde Media.

• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's the creator and host of Exactly Right Media's first bilingual podcast, Two Face John of God, which follows the rise and fall of a celebrated Brazilian spiritual healer who built a holy empire and the criminal activity that made it possible and the powerful network of believers who protect him even to this day.

• 2:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Please welcome Martina Castro.

• 2:10Speaker 05

  Excited to be here.

• 2:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you being here is incredible because it means it's happening.

• 2:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, it really is.

• 2:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's happening.

• 2:16Speaker 05

  Finally.

• 2:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It's been three years. Is that, is that safe?

• 2:20Speaker 05

  Truly, it was pitched internally. We did the math in 2022.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:26Speaker 05

  I mean, just that's like the initial germ of the idea. And then us like finding you, pitching it to you guys, us working on the development and like, well, let's make sure this is like a good story. I mean, goodness, the phases, life has changed, the world has changed. I mean, we're different people now.

• 2:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Truly, 2022.

• 2:47Speaker 05

  I know.

• 2:48Karen Kilgariff?

  When we first met, I remember we went to a Christmas party and it was one of those things where like walking in, it kind of uncomfortable. It was like a business Christmas party. And then across the room, we see Martina and we were just like by your side. And it was like, I, it was that feeling of like, oh, thank God, this is the person we're working with. Cause we'd already had like-

• 3:08Speaker 05

  We had just signed.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 3:09Speaker 05

  And I remember we were really early, which was-

• 3:12Karen Kilgariff?

  To the party.

• 3:12Speaker 05

  You don't do that. But we did it. And I was so excited because I recognized some other people who were there, but then, but I didn't really know anyone. And then we locked eyes. And at first it was a little awkward because it's like we hadn't met in person yet, but immediately I felt like calm. Okay, this is a real person. We can talk about all the things. We talked about a lot of things.

• 3:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we did.

• 3:32Speaker 05

  I was just felt like that human warmth that you really want.

• 3:35Karen Kilgariff?

  That's exactly how I felt about you, where it was like this person who, you know, the intro that I just gave you is like badass bitch. You know, girl boss, whatever. And Martina's just sitting there like, I'm so embarrassed. We were here first. Like immediately.

• 3:49Speaker 05

  Well, I think this is just true about podcast people. Like we are extroverts sometimes, maybe when there's a microphone or when we're doing our work, but like, I feel like there's an introvert in all of us. Because otherwise, what would, we'd be doing something else, right?

• 4:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And journalists too. You're so used to like kind of being in the background and observing.

• 4:06Speaker 05

  It's so bizarre. It's actually like a little bit of a conflict because you do have to talk to people. I remember being so shy and so scared, like my, the first press conference, right? To go and like shove a mic in front of like, I don't know, like a- Presidential candidate or some, you know, really important people. But you just do it.

• 4:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 05

  Cause the work, I guess, like there's some internal perfectionist pressure that like gets you over the hump of the shy kid.

• 4:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:35Speaker 05

  The shy kids in all of us, I really believe, were all kind of little shy kids.

• 4:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, you kind of were a little shy when you were pitching this and we had all these choices of who could host it. And it was like, this person would be great and that person would be great. And then Martina's also like, also I'll do it if you want me. I was like, yes, have her do it. It's her show. It's her thing. She knows how to do this. Like, why would we have anybody else but you, the creator, do it?

• 4:59Speaker 05

  I just, you know, it's like this thing of just not wanting to be presumptuous and like really, I'm really cool with anybody doing it. Like, I really am a producer at heart.

• 5:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 05

  I'm not, like, when I started in journalism, it was like, everybody wanted to be in front of the mic and everybody wanted to be the reporter. And I was like, can I just learn how to be the person in the background who makes it all happen? And I remember some, like, career journalists looking at me and being like, you're gonna make it far and you're gonna make it fast. Because nobody wants to do what you want to do.

• 5:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hard. But I do think like you're that position when you got those amazing interviews, the people, the victims and the people that actually went through this story. Everything was connected in this way where it wasn't just kind of like, and some outside person pulling you through chapter by chapter. It's Martina's story. You were the one that went and got it, found the people, all of that. And you can just really feel it in those episodes.

• 5:52Speaker 05

  I'm so glad.

• 5:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about like what drew you to this story? It's such a fascinating story. Like, how did you find it? What made you interested in it?

• 6:01Speaker 05

  Well, you know, I had a team that we were all looking for stories. And at the time, we were like, all right, true crime, it's like a thing. Like, we had done a heist podcast, which was really fun.

• 6:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 05

  And, you know, it's technically true crime and it was like light, you know, nobody died.

• 6:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Speaker 05

  It was just kind of, I mean, I, you know, people got robbed or whatever, but.

• 6:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we got it. We got it.

• 6:22Speaker 05

  Okay, you get it.

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We know this very well.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  You got it. And I was like, well, let's keep like looking for something that's not quite on the nose true crime, but is really us. And like our company, like from the beginning, my goal was let's get out of the US. Let's remind Americans that there are stories that are really compelling to you, that are not necessarily in your language and told, you know, maybe in many languages and that happened outside the US, but touch you, you know, because we're all interconnected in the end.

• 6:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Once Oprah's at the middle of all of everyone's lives.

• 6:52Speaker 05

  Once I found that Oprah was in it, I was like, that's done, done, done, check. Like, let's just figure this out. So I greenlit it once I really could, like, click all those boxes, you know? Like, I really wanted it to, like, have some, it had to be international. It had to, I mean, by virtue of being multilingual, but I really was looking for people who, some people who spoke English, because we did want to have it be primarily in English. But it touched the US somehow. It had to be a story that wasn't overdone, you know? Like, what are we bringing to it that hasn't been done already?

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:24Speaker 05

  But might be a touch point, like, it's not so obscure. I mean, this, it's hard. It's, we have to check a lot of boxes, honestly. Because, you know, I still think we have a really high bar for the kinds of things we're willing, as Americans, to consume that are outside of the US, right?

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 05

  But this one really did. I mean, it's about a spiritual guru who's a healer. So that already got me, because it's not someone who's necessarily going to help you find your, like, salvation after life. It is someone who's going to help you in your time of deepest need.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  Either for you or your loved one. So that's just like, oh, I want that at some point one day. You know, like, I could just imagine myself there very, very quickly. And, you know, it's based in Brazil, which Brazilian culture is really, is compelling to me. It's also really a little unknown. And so I kind of was intrigued to understand a little bit more what was happening. Because it's really not just one religious belief. It's a mix of beliefs that are coming together in this human being. And then the Oprah thing, I was just like, wait, this is not just some obscure dude. Like, he is being promoted and speaking at some of the most prestigious, like, platforms you have as a spiritual leader. What?

• 8:46Speaker 05

  And then you find out everything he did, and we're going to avoid spoilers, but my goodness, we know that he did quite a lot.

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• 10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It was so interesting that there were so many people you interviewed that were not from there, that came to find him specifically. Did you, do you have belief that like someone can be a healer? Because being a spiritual guru is one thing. You know, it's like they can promise you something and it's not tangible, but being like, I'll fix the thing, that's like a big promise.

• 10:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is, but it's not that far, like, you know, from my cultural consciousness. It's incredibly close for people who are from Brazil. Like that, every Brazilian I spoke to was like, this is not weird for us.

• 11:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 11:12Speaker 05

  But then like, I don't know, my dad, like he would rather go see. He goes to see this guy that he calls the huesero. So a huesero is hueso bone, the bone guy. Okay, so you'd think maybe he's a chiropractor, but he calls himself the bone guy. And he would rather go see that guy who promises to fix, you know, his arthritis than to go see a Western doctor. And so it's not that far from me to imagine a person who's like a layperson, not a doctor, not a studied physician, who has some healing abilities. And I don't think that that's like that weird for most, anyone who believes in any new agey stuff, like it's not that far from our beliefs.

• 11:55Speaker 05

  Like it goes deep later, you know, but on the surface, that's like, kind of all of us could maybe believe that there's a man out there with the ability to heal things that are incurable.

• 12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I think you brought that up a lot when we would like go through the scripts and going, talking about those interviews where it's really important, which I really liked. It was really important to you to like, keep on underlining that this was very normal in this culture. These aren't people who fell for something. These aren't people who weren't using their logical mind. It's like the promise plus the culture that was already there, plus the desperation of anybody in a situation where it's like, you're learning that someone has stage four cancer and the Western doctors are telling you they don't have anything else for you. Of course, these like, it's a person taking advantage of that position, that desperation, and then the belief that's kind of already there.

• 12:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 12:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You go in there and you're just kind of like, oh my God, it's working and it's working for other people. It could work for me.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  Yes, yes. It was the testimonials, I think, go very far. Cause once you get there, I mean, even there was this journalist that we interviewed who went to just see what it was like, this Australian journalist. And he's like, there's all these people milling about in white, you know, kind of like saying they were cured by him. At some point, you're like, well, maybe, maybe they were.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  They show you their papers. They, they show you like their, their x-rays and, and their documents saying like how they, before they had this and now they have this. Like they believed so fervently. And then there were people who were just taking a chance.

• 13:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 05

  You know, some of the people who got wrapped up in this were just at the end of their ability. Like no doctor was willing to continue helping them. It was like, that's it. There's no more answers. Maybe let's just give this a try. Like, let's just see, you know? And, you know, it's called two-faced. So what was really interesting to me was to explore that kind of human being. I mean, I'm like, both of you, like, you know, when I listen to your show, like, just the, the, the exploring of the human mind and the capacity for a human being to do some really dark things. It's hard for me. I, I, I want to believe in the goodness of every human, like, and I think a lot of us do. But there are people out there doing really horrible things.

• 14:15Speaker 05

  And so there's something really compelling to me about a person who's able to live a double life and show you one thing and really be so convincing. Yeah. To the level of being like, he, he healed presidents, Supreme Court justices, really famous celebrities and people of all walks of life, doctors have gone and been like, no, he's real, you know, and, and then this other side that, and in, and I, I feel like what I've learned is that they don't get away with it by themselves. It's not like that other face, that other side is only, only they know. Right. It's not, there's actually a lot of people who know and who see that other side.

• 14:59Speaker 05

  And part of the, I don't want to say magic, but the manipulation, the incredible ability of this, this kind of human being is to really get everyone to play ball and, and, and just kind of go along with it. Yeah, well, because it's one thing to be like, I'm going to promise you this healing and to get you out of this very desperate situation. It's another thing to then, oh, now you're here, I'm going to lock a door, take advantage, you know, all the, the darkness and it's bad enough that he's not actually doing the things he's doing. Or maybe it's, maybe working for certain people and that is an interesting thing of like, there are people who really do attest that like, I went in there, I got this, you

• 15:40Speaker 05

  know, he told me the thing to do, I got this procedure, it didn't hurt and suddenly I was okay. Well, what's interesting is that I think we set out to never decide on that one. I was like, you know, I feel like we're going to alienate people if we're trying to actually figure out whether He's a real healer or not.

• 15:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a yes or no answer.

• 15:58Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 15:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not the point.

• 15:59Speaker 05

  For me, I was like, no, let's like actually maybe pretend, let's like, let's believe that he actually does have a power because many of the people who came to speak with us, like the survivors, still believe he, he has this power.

• 16:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 16:12Speaker 05

  But that he was corrupted or that he used it for bad purposes. But like, I, I didn't want to put, make that the purpose because that's, that really wasn't interesting, as interesting to me. He might actually have some gift. It's really about how he presented himself in very, very, very, very different ways in order to get away with some heinous things.

• 16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And that idea of like, you have the power, then you're building a little spa, you're building a little commune, you build this little city, it grows and grows, people also start making money off of it, not just you. Then it just becomes that thing where it's like too big to fail. But we're talking about spiritual healing. So it's like, it gets more and more, I don't know, like the story itself, when we first started talking about it, just like, how can this be real? And how can it have gone on for as long as it did? So long.

• 17:06Speaker 05

  So long, four decades.

• 17:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:09Speaker 05

  Wow. Yeah. But it's exactly what you're talking about, like a really small, middle of nowhere town that thrived thanks to this tourism. And the international element was really compelling because for a while, he was just healing people in Brazil, but there was a turn, there was a moment where he had some ingenious ideas to grow and, because there are many other spiritual healers in Brazil, many, that are like him and do kind of the same types of healing, but they didn't get as famous as he did. So he was like, smart enough to like, be like, no, what's really going to make this take off is foreigners.

• 17:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 05

  And so he had people who, like the first few people who ended up going, ended up becoming tour guides. He would, he would like, when they came up, so there's like a, the healing process, the treatment, it was really a, like a variety of activities that happened at this compound called La Casa. And, but the big thing, the main event was like this line of people waiting to see him. And you would see him for like, you know, a few seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds. And some people, when they were, I mean,

• 18:17Speaker 05

  One of the people we talked to claims that they were spies. You know, there were people helpers who would be like, oh, he speaks English. Oh, he speaks French. And then they would be like, so they'd get up to speak to him and he'd be like, he'd do his thing where he's channeling a spirit and he's like, your mission now is to bring people from France or to bring people from the United States or whatever. And so they would become, I mean, and they felt so special and honored and chosen, right? I mean, that's part of it. And they would bring people and they could charge. They were allowed to make money off of this. So, you know, then other people would become tour guides who had come with those tour guides and it just was like, it just really spread very quickly. Yeah, many, many different countries touched by this movement.

• 19:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It's got kind of the culty vibe going on, but also like a multi-level marketing thing, pyramid scheme, but with people's health. And that's what we're most vulnerable about is like, my dad is sick. Can you help me, you know? That's just right.

• 19:15Speaker 05

  It's the parts that sickens you the most, you know?

• 19:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  That's the part that sickens you the most.

• 19:21Speaker 05

  Those eye surgeries.

• 19:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, like, there's get to that part.

• 19:24Speaker 05

  There's details and maybe that's like a spoiler alert, but like, there were parts of this when we would like be listening to tape that Martino would send or whatever and everyone's like, oh, I don't, it's another one of those things. Or these procedures are so harrowing, listening to people's stories about them. It's crazy. Yeah, I mean, we went back and forth on when to put one of those scenes, but like, obviously one had to be in there. Like, I think we ended up putting it in the beginning of episode one.

• 19:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not too bad either. There's a little mention of an eye thing.

• 19:52Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything else is.

• 19:53Speaker 05

  It's like really bad if you want to watch it. Like, if you want to Google it, go YouTube, okay. But like, most of you are not going to do that, probably.

• 20:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 20:00Speaker 05

  And we describe it, but not, it's not gory. But it was hard to watch. I'll tell you, like, I had to write, you know, that part of the script and I was like, I don't think I can watch this one more time. You know, like, it is just, it's intense.

• 20:14Georgia Hardstark?

  But still, people are coming out the other side being like, pain free.

• 20:17Speaker 05

  Right.

• 20:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That was an amazing experience. We were just like, what, how, how does a person get to that point where that's the experience they're having on that end?

• 20:26Speaker 05

  We talked a lot about that, too. It's not quite, we don't talk about it much in the series, but like, that placebo effect was very. Present, like I did talk about it with a lot of the interviews, like, well, what was happening there? Because the treatment is, you know, getting to see him and then he would like either send you to like this hall where he would heal people by channeling spirits all at once. So you'd be sitting and praying and then he or meditating and he would, he'd be channeling spirits and he would heal everybody in that room, plus anyone who wrote in like a letter or who brought a picture of someone, he would heal people like thousands of miles away. That was the, the idea, that he was channeling spirits that could heal at any

• 21:07Speaker 05

  distance. Or you could ask for a physical surgery. And, you know, one of the scholars we spoke with, she was like basically living with the movement at the Casa for a while. And she reports hearing him say that it was just to get people to believe, that it was a spectacle that was required to get foreigners to really believe the spirits could do things. Because he did invisible surgeries.

• 21:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  On you. But like, the visible surgery was no anesthetics, like bare hand, man. I mean, no gloves.

• 21:45Speaker 05

  The most doctoral thing he did was have like, you know, a scalpel, a little like tin can with some water and he would like, kind of rinse it off and then scrape your eyeball.

• 21:55Georgia Hardstark?

  There were like shades of lobotomy going on that I was so uncomfortable.

• 21:59Speaker 05

  But then you, yeah, you would see these and like, people would be smiling. They'd bleed a little bit, but not massive amounts of blood. So people were like, whoa, what's happening? Like, and he would just stitch you up right there, you know? No one would get infected. Like, that was the other, who knows?

• 22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 22:15Speaker 05

  Yeah. But like, a lot of people believe that somehow these surgeries would happen and people would get better.

• 22:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Well, you're not going to be the one person who's like, actually, two weeks later, you know?

• 22:26Speaker 05

  This swelled up.

• 22:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, it kind of relies on you not complaining and not saying, not being the one fucking person.

• 22:34Speaker 05

  Person. Yeah. Yeah.

• 22:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Which a lot of those things do.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's kind of the thing of, are you going to say the old psychology test, there's smoke coming out from under the door? Going to be the one that says, hey, is anyone else seeing this? If everyone else acts like they're not like it's tough.

• 22:48Speaker 05

  It's tough.

• 22:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And you're already in the position of you want it to be real.

• 22:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:52Georgia Hardstark?

  You need it to be real. You've gone to Brazil to make it to see.

• 22:56Speaker 05

  Exactly. You've gone to so much lengths. It's like expensive. You're surrounded by people and the vibe of the town, everyone talked about it.

• 23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Speaker 05

  Like just this euphoria because not that it was joyous, so to speak, but more like, I'm with my people.

• 23:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Type of vibe because a lot of sick people, but people who maybe had the same illness as you. And you would sit across these cafes that were like, where you could get a flat white and, you know, it was like very international too. At some point it like was catering to an international crowd, like vegetarian meals and like all the things. And then you'd be speaking to strangers and be like, well, what, what kind of cancer do you have? And like, oh, well, I'm taking this and what did you? He also reportedly would tell people to continue their medical treatment. Like we have found cases of people claiming the opposite. But within the belief system, it wasn't like you were supposed to just give up everything.

• 23:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Speaker 05

  It was like, this is supposed to treat, and this is where it gets me. It's supposed to treat the inner illness of your soul that led to the manifestation of this physical ailment, right?

• 24:08Speaker 05

  I mean, I don't know if I believe that right now, but there have been times in my life where I was like, yeah, you know, if I am really tired or there's something, you know, you can imagine that if you're not well, like soul wise, that your body would get sick. So it's not like it doesn't make sense.

• 24:24Georgia Hardstark?

  That totally makes sense to me, like a negativity that just, yeah, manifests into whatever.

• 24:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 24:30Georgia Hardstark?

  illnesses and then we treat the symptoms instead of treating the core blah, blah, blah.

• 24:34Speaker 05

  Exactly. So they were like, no, we're treating the core issue. And the core issue often had to do with your past lives. So there's a little bit of that too, like of your karma. And, you know, one of our survivors was told that her father was sick because she and her father were linked in a past life where she did, you know, they were involved in an altercation and he was being punished for that past life thing. You know, it just, different shades of, of, of different kinds of belief systems, new age belief systems, Buddhism, things that they're not that inaccessible, that you're like, well, maybe.

• 25:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:15Speaker 05

  That's all he needs. He just needs a little window of you to be like, maybe.

• 25:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And the Western people, it sounds like Catholicism. There's something inherently wrong with you. If you're sick, what did you do to deserve it? You need to repent, like that, you know, it's tapping into a lot of those kinds of things. Then it's, you know, suddenly you see Oprah's talking about it. Oprah's like giving it a platform of what is this? Is this real? And suddenly, there's all the people in America who don't have a doctor, who can't afford insurance, all the things where they're like, we need an option. And that kind of like terrible, perfect storm.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  Convergence, yeah. And that was the peak of his popularity when Oprah went. And she went. I mean, it's one thing to cover, which she did, cover from afar, or send a reporter, or send someone. But she went herself and with the whole film crew. She got treatment.

• 26:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 26:05Speaker 05

  She said famously, I don't know what happened, but I felt something, you know, something along those lines. And so, yeah, you see that and you're like, I mean, I was, I mean, I guess I don't quite as much, but I really, for a long part of my twenties and thirties, was a big follower of Oprah.

• 26:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 05

  Like read all her, you know, her magazines. I was like.

• 26:24Karen Kilgariff?

  She legitimizes anything she puts, which is like a lot of pressure for one person.

• 26:29Speaker 05

  It is a lot of pressure.

• 26:30Karen Kilgariff?

  But.

• 26:31Speaker 05

  It is a lot of pressure and I, you know, I don't envy her position, but I don't know. It was a really, it was, it was a risk. And we know at least that we just spoke to at least one person who went because she saw it on Oprah, you know, so.

• 26:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. That part, or it's talking about the Oprah part, we're just like, should we be talking about the Oprah part?

• 26:51Speaker 05

  I know.

• 26:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But I do think it's like, whether it's Oprah, whether it's whoever, you know, connected America to this and made it kind of culturally a norm, putting it there and then needing to talk about that, where it's like, we were in a state then, and maybe know better now, where people are looking for these answers. And. Looking for these options and they need them. So it's like the need is is valid and also the curiosity is valid and the journalism is valid and important. It's like if there's some answer somewhere for people, it would be great to know it. But then it's it's just like, of course, 2020 vision, where after the fact, you're just like, well, there's a whole other thing that's happening here that is worst case scenario.

• 27:35Speaker 05

  And there's also, we we saw, you know, I get it. I used I used to produce a weekly show. I know what it is to get into like, making these shows. But I mean, many, many journalists just kept repeating the same thing that everybody else had. And some of the incredible authors that we talked to who really dug into his like, origin story, for example, found so many inconsistencies. I mean, he will tell you a different age, depending on who you hear it from, of when he had his like, epiphany moment of that he had visions or he had a gift. You know, we found, I think it was like 13 and 17. I'm like, so when you see these kinds of inconsistencies, and you just chalk it up to, well, he's, he barely knows how

• 28:20Speaker 05

  to read and write, and he's from a really small town. And I don't know, there's a lot of a little bit of exoticism there. Like, were we willingly, I'm sure, out of respect, frankly, I'm going to give the best benefit of the doubt to the people who just were like, oh, we're not going to dig into that because he's telling us this. And he is from another culture, and he, you know, and class differences and all that. But out of respect, for whatever reason, you know, gloss over some things. It is also, I'm sure, a little bit of the appeal, you know, we believe that these answers come from someone who doesn't know how to read or write in the middle of nowhere of Brazil. Like, that feels true in the Hollywood version of this story, right?

• 29:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's best case scenario for the Hollywood version. It's like, it wouldn't be fun if it was a doctor. You know, it's like, it's got to be the poor guy. But also, do you want to talk about, because there were, you know, as you produce this podcast, and as you talk to people, there were little things that happened that were like, wait a second, is because there is that thing where it's like, you can't dismiss the power out of hand. If there's this many people, this many either witnesses or people that are believers, then there is a little bit of like, what are we talking about here? And that there's just some interesting things that happened when you were. Investigating.

• 29:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the most notable ones, and again, I guess this is a little spoilery, but there was a moment where we're interviewing one of the survivors who's talking about what had happened to her and literally finishes the detailed description. And the engineer, who is over in Brazil, is like, wait, wait, wait a second. And I'm like, what was going on? And I just hear a lot of Portuguese. And they're like, oh, my God, oh, my God, the power went out. And I was like, what? But it didn't really go out. It was like just the recording equipment stopped right at that moment. And the first thing this

• 30:20Speaker 05

  person says is, ah, see, that's John of God. Can you believe?

• 30:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:26Speaker 05

  And I was like, what? What do you mean, John of God? And she's like, oh, it always happens. Always happens. The electricity goes out or something, something like, like, people get in a car accident, or somebody gets robbed. You know, it's like, he, he, he just does these things.

• 30:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 30:42Speaker 05

  And we were laughing about it, kind of. And thankfully, I had a backup recording going, so we didn't lose it. But, um, you know.

• 30:51Karen Kilgariff?

  All the lights go out.

• 30:54Georgia Hardstark?

  The exact same thing. Like, oh, no.

• 30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a little bit like, interesting to be stepping into that world. And then it is like, it's not black and white. It just isn't.

• 31:03Speaker 05

  No, the prosecutor really like, so our series really covers not just the rise of this individual, but all that it took to reveal this other side of his, right? And the heroes are very much the survivors who were brave enough to go against the grain and literally having no one support them and come out. But the journalists who sought them out and gave them a platform, the prosecutor who went and really took this case into new law, frankly, in Brazil territory. And they all face these, like, these difficulties. Like, one journalist was trying to convince a person to come on her show. And she's like, no, no, no, my car got.

• 31:47Speaker 05

  Stolen last night. I think that was John of God. I think this is a sign I can't go. I can't go. The prosecutor would interview people, get their testimonies and be like, so what did John of God say to you then? And she's like, no, no, no, I wasn't talking to John of God. I was talking to the entity. And he's like, but isn't that John of God? No, no, no, that's the entity. And he's like, okay. So, you know, you can't even get a straight testimony because people are very anchored in these beliefs and you have to come from that level of understanding and respect and appreciation of that. Even when they want to speak out. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. I know, I know.

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• 34:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of the justice, do you think justice was served in this story?

• 35:04Speaker 05

  Such a big question. I am on the side of yes. Yes, because so many, I mean, again, I don't want to give it away, but so many people just keep going.

• 35:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:20Speaker 05

  You know? And now we know. Now we know who this man is, truly. The legal system has risen to the occasion, and we can be more aware, you know? It's not quite, I think, the ending everybody wanted.

• 35:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Especially the real believers, I'm sure.

• 35:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 35:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 05

  But, you know, I think they found their way, too, to continue believing, honestly. One researcher says the flexibility that John of God built into his belief system, which Brought so many people in, has enabled it to continue living without him, which probably he didn't want. But there are people still going to La Casa. They're still, you know, doing their healing sessions. There were other people doing healing sessions there, so it wasn't just him. And they still believe it's a holy place. And it goes on, but I think we can draw so many lessons from it that I believe it's a win in the end.

• 36:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's a certain type of personality that is like, this is the, I'm here, I'm going to give you all the answers. I speak to God, I speak for God, all of that stuff. It's like anytime we're hearing stuff like that, it's like, all right, let's get our checklist out of

• 36:34Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 36:35Karen Kilgariff?

  what's actually happening here. And it is this obsession with power. It is this, that ultimately that corruption where then those relationships are not just, it's not just you're being lied to about the services that are being rendered, but you're now in a whole other area and whole other danger. And then the people that are, are being victimized really get chosen because they're the ones that aren't heard and won't be heard.

• 37:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, I mean, really, truly, it was very systematic. They, they were chosen.

• 37:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 05

  For their vulnerability, which is just horrible. One of the healers who worked with him actually spoke with us and was very outspoken about what you just said, like that he perverted the belief system. When someone is saying they're the only one, that doesn't go with their belief system, actually. It goes contrary to what they were teaching and because he would train people to be mediums. And so it didn't make sense for there to be only one medium. And then that power grab, that sort of desire to be around celebrities and have like, be famous, that's what tipped him off. He's like, hmm, there's something weird here.

• 37:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 05

  And he's a believer, like still to this day. So also incredibly brave to be able to, in hindsight, be like, shoot, I saw this. And I knew something was off, but you know, really believed in what I was doing and didn't want to give that up. Yeah.

• 38:06Karen Kilgariff?

  So you worked on this for like maybe four years. So once you deliver your final episode, how does your life change? Do you go on a vacation right away? Do you start, do you start the next series with some other company? Like, how do you do it? Is it all lined up?

• 38:21Speaker 05

  That's a good question. I mean, things have changed in podcasting just in these last four years quite a bit. I used to have too many projects going on at once. And so it was a real luxury to get to work on this as closely as I did. And yeah, I guess like a few months before it launches, I start kind of coming up with new ideas and thinking about what's next. Limited series are really hard to make now, but it's what I love to do. So it's a little bit of a like, well, how can I adapt to the new world of podcasting? Adonde as well? And be like meeting the industry at the moment? You know, what do audiences really want right now? And I'm still figuring that out. I don't know. I mean, I know they want my favorite murder.

• 39:06Speaker 05

  Let's be real.

• 39:08Karen Kilgariff?

  But the Spanish language part of it is really cool, too. Like, that's really exciting for us here to be able to put that out and have it be our first.

• 39:17Speaker 05

  It's awesome. It's awesome. I mean, I, I don't want to like oversell, but I really think people are going to love this because there's just not that much out there right now. Not many people are taking these risks and, and companies. And so, I mean, I, that's why I just admire everything that Exactly Right put into this production because it's really betting on us, which is, feels good. You know, and I say us as like Spanish speakers, where they do consume podcasts in Spanish. There are so many of us out there dying to hear documentaries, chat shows, all the kinds of shows, true crime. It doesn't, you know, I think we're pigeonholed a lot of the times. And so I think they're going to flock to this kind of storytelling because there's just not as much out there.

• 40:00Speaker 05

  It's a really amazing moment to be putting this out. And, you know, it, it grew really exponentially because people are bilingual. So they are listening in English. You know, they're listening to all the shows. They know what is the podcast medium is capable of delivering. And so when Certain companies, media companies started investing and making podcasts in Spanish. It was like, okay, here we go. And they, they didn't take the lead up time, like the, the grow time that I think we needed in the US to like really build an ecosystem, kind of figure out what we wanted to make. Like, we saw just podcasts changed so much before Serial or before, you know, some of these like big boom moments. And they just went fast, much faster.

• 40:45Speaker 05

  So I think it's one of the fastest growing demographics in the US. And so we'll see, we'll see.

• 40:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so exciting. And it was exciting to like, just have the general idea of like, we should have Spanish language podcasts, we should be trying to tap into that audience and whatever. And that was like, we were introduced to you guys like within a couple of months. It was like, not only is there a production company out there doing it, doing it great, like with this long history. I mean, like, you've been, you've been around for a while. So it, it was just so cool to be able to immediately meet a person that was not just like doing it and capable, but like, you're just so excellent, Martine.

• 41:25Speaker 05

  Oh, thank you.

• 41:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're such a good host.

• 41:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Such a compelling listening for this show. I'm just so excited.

• 41:32Speaker 05

  Thank you. Thank you. I wanted, I've hosted a bunch of things really randomly. You know, because I'm always like, no, I'm the EP, no, I've got to be the editor. I'm, I'm really an editor at heart. You know, I love helping other people bring their babies to life in podcast land. But yeah, I just fallen into hosting and I really love it. It's been really nice in this series to explore a new voice, like try something different and put a little bit of myself in there. It didn't feel so personal because I'm not from Brazil, it's, you know, but it felt close to home in terms of the subject matter because, I mean, I don't know, being a woman with a daughter.

• 42:15Speaker 05

  Being from that part of the world, being a person who likes to, I don't know that I'm, that psychology chess you mentioned, I don't know that I'd be the one to be like, oh, look, there's smoke. I mean, maybe because I'm a producer and I like to be like on top of things. But like, I'm kind of late to the game when I realize something's off. Like, I don't want to believe that someone's capable of doing something wrong to me. And I've noticed this about myself. I've gotten better about it. My husband is amazing at being like, I don't know about that guy. Or like, well, why did you do that? Why'd you talk to them? And it's like, you're right. Like, why? Why? And I just am just too friendly or something. And so it's been, it was close to home, the material, this idea that what these women went through.

• 43:00Speaker 05

  Like, I, I just, it would be really hard for me to come out and be like, no, actually, this is all wrong.

• 43:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's such a rare thing to say. I feel like so many of us are like, I would have never, or like, so the public about true crime is like, I would have screamed, and you didn't. It's like, no, you wouldn't have. But I like being like, I wouldn't have, the reality is, you, yeah, you would have pulled your car over, or you would have, you know, believed that what this person was telling you, because why would they lie?

• 43:28Speaker 05

  Exactly. And I just think I'm just, my brain takes a second to be like, wait, are you really doing this to me? Like, I just, you know, there's scenes we're not going to get into, but in this series where I'm like, yeah, I probably wouldn't have opened my mouth either. I wouldn't have said anything until a little too late, like maybe five minutes after, I'd be like, whoa, I think that just happened.

• 43:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or like, one person, or two people stand up and then you can.

• 43:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 43:54Karen Kilgariff?

  But if the whole room is like facing forward and chanting the chant and doing the thing, and then you walk in next, it's like, it takes so much to be the person that goes, hold on, everybody, turn that music off. Wait a second.

• 44:06Speaker 05

  Yes, yes. This is a big scam, like, or whatever, you know? So, ah, that just, the whole series, like, to this, I mean, right now, like, I like get in my, in my feelings about it, because I'm just like. To be that person, to be there, to be a version of, and then have the wherewithal or strength or bravery to then speak out is just like, oh, my God, you're my hero.

• 44:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:29Speaker 05

  It's really something.

• 44:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Inspiring, really.

• 44:31Speaker 05

  It's so good. Yeah.

• 44:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And you, not only you made this beautiful podcast with us and you're such a great partner, but then you actually agreed to fly hours and hours to come and do this episode with us.

• 44:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 44:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is so nice of you.

• 44:47Speaker 05

  Total, total hours, what was it again on the plane? I mean, 17 hours if you include the layover. No. In Miami. I know.

• 44:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 44:58Speaker 05

  I know throughout this whole thing, I think before we started, I lived here in LA. And then for work reasons, we went to Argentina, where my husband is from. And yeah, so I came from there. Well, actually, technically, I came from Uruguay, where my family's from. Because that's where we've been for the holidays and we've just been there for extended time. And I brought a gift.

• 45:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, a Uruguayan gift?

• 45:23Speaker 05

  Well, it's funny because I could have brought this from Argentina, because of course, they always have the same thing we do. We compete on everything. And so they also have this cookie called alfajor. Alfajor is what it's called. It's like a cakey cookie with caramel in the middle, which we call dulce de leche. This is a very special brand because it's from La Sierra de Minas, which is where my dad's from in Uruguay. It's on the interior. They're very famous all across Uruguay. But this one is a special sort of like line called legendary. And I was like, oh, my God. Come on. I'm gonna bring one to Karen and Georgia. It's gonna be the legendary one.

• 46:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. Thank you.

• 46:03Speaker 05

  That's so nice of you. Here it shows you where it's from.

• 46:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, look. It's perfect. Well, and also, we have a gift for you because we know you've been away from the States.

• 46:12Speaker 05

  That's true.

• 46:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And we heard that one of your favorite things was bagels that you can't get in Argentina the way you wish you could.

• 46:21Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 46:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So we brought you some bagels.

• 46:23Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 46:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Do you want to open this bagel gift?

• 46:26Speaker 05

  That is an enormous.

• 46:27Karen Kilgariff?

  This bag of bagels.

• 46:29Speaker 05

  And it smells so good. Literally under my chair in the airplane. Oh, my God, with the bow and everything.

• 46:35Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll get you an extra seat on the plane.

• 46:37Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly. An extra seat for my Bagel Boss box. A boss box.

• 46:43Karen Kilgariff?

  A boss box.

• 46:44Speaker 05

  Ooh. Look at the presentation.

• 46:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at it. That looks incredible.

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Is this getting some, some camera action?

• 46:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Those are huge bagels.

• 46:53Speaker 05

  These are many of them, too. You know, my favorite is everything.

• 46:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  Oh, the smell. Right? Our producer Molly was like, should I put him in this studio or should I? And I said, you have to hold him out there because I can smell them like right now.

• 47:09Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 47:10Speaker 05

  They're so good. This is amazing. Y'all went really out there for me. Thank you so much.

• 47:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Same.

• 47:16Speaker 05

  Not quite the same, but you know, I had to come from very far away.

• 47:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I am so excited for these. Thank you so much for taking the time and making that trip because.

• 47:24Speaker 05

  Oh, my, my pleasure.

• 47:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We just want our audience to know you and they will through, of course, the podcast. But like getting to know you as a person, I think it just what you do, you running your company, all the things that you make, like. It's, it's really an honor to work with somebody like you and we're so excited to be launching this podcast with you.

• 47:43Speaker 05

  Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. It's a true honor for me to be here and to speak to your audience and share this story. It's, it's, it was a team effort. I know I'm here, but I'm here representing a lot of people behind the scenes and we're all just so grateful. So.

• 47:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 48:00Speaker 05

  Let's see. Oh, wait, that's the intro. We didn't even have to look at these cards.

• 48:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. Oh, my God, now I can smell them. I can smell them now.

• 48:05Speaker 05

  I know, right? Should I close it?

• 48:06Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Like, I want that cologne.

• 48:09Speaker 05

  Right?

• 48:09Karen Kilgariff?

  The bagel cologne.

• 48:11Speaker 05

  Some light, some light garlic.

• 48:13Karen Kilgariff?

  A room spray of bagel.

• 48:15Speaker 05

  Gosh, we don't even need to go to dinner. Let's just eat bagels for real.

• 48:20Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. So check out our newest podcast, Two-Faced John of God, in both English and Spanish on February 4th, 2026, with new episodes out on Wednesdays.

• 48:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And don't judge me for this. You can find the Spanish language RSS feed by searching Dos Catos, Juan de Dios.

• 48:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Wherever you get your podcasts.

• 48:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So please listen, subscribe, and give it a five-star review. Two-Faced John of God, thank you so much for being with us.

• 48:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, it's so exciting.

• 48:47Speaker 05

  My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:49Speaker 05

  Stay sexy.

• 48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 48:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Good bagel.

• 48:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 49:04Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 49:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 49:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lasvado.

• 49:11Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Okun.

• 49:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 49:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 49:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 49:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 49:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 49:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second true crime voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 49:47Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wisecrack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 50:03Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 50:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 50:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 50:12Speaker 00

  Parents and grandparents, if you want a gift that won't be forgotten by New Year's, give a Guardian bike. It's America's favorite kids' bike because most kids learn to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. They're lightweight and low to the ground with a wide wheelbase for balance. It's no wonder they have a 4.9 At a five-star rating with over a million happy riders. They're also designed and assembled in the USA. And they've been the New York Times Wirecutter's top pick four years in a row. This holiday season, save over 40% on kids' bikes. Plus, get $100 in free accessories. A lock, pump, bell, grips, and clamp. That's stocking stuffers covered. They have helmets and adult bikes, too, so the whole family can ride. Shop guardianbikes.com.

• 50:57Speaker 00

  That's guardianbikes.com.

• 51:00Speaker 01

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