505 - Brief Recess

This week, Karen and Georgia sit down with the hosts of Exactly Right’s newest podcast, Brief Recess: A Legal Podcast with Michael Foote & Mélissa Malebranche. They talk about everything from the state of immigration in America, to the superiority of boxed mac and cheese. Brief Recess premieres on November 13 with new episodes every Thursday. Follow, rate, and review Brief Recess wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Michael Foote on Instagram @dept_of_redundancy_dept https://www.instagram.com/dept_of_redundancy_dept and TikTok @Michael_Foote_ https://www.tiktok.com/@michael_foote_, and follow Mélissa Malebranche on both platforms @MelissaMalebranche https://www.instagram.com/melissamalebranche. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Watch full episodes of My Favorite Murder on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 0:36Speaker 02

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• 0:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, grow up, because it's almost impossible.

• 0:42Speaker 02

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• 0:45Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:54Speaker 02

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• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

  New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  Audible, stories that speak to you. Goodbye.

• 1:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception, his mom.

• 1:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 1:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.

• 1:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.

• 1:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:54Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:55Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And today, we have two very impressive guests on the show. He is an immigration and criminal defense attorney, who you might know from TikTok. She is a senior leader in the nonprofit world and a self-professed frustrated writer.

• 2:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Fledgling wedding officiant and curly hair activist.

• 2:13Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 2:14Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're here to talk about their brand new legal podcast, which debuts in mere days here on Exactly Right Network. Please welcome, all the way from New York City, the hosts of Brief Recession, Michael Foot and Melissa Mallbranche.

• 2:28Speaker 06

  Hi.

• 2:28Speaker 05

  Hi, everyone.

• 2:32Speaker 06

  Big reveal, the wig comes off. Just.

• 2:37Speaker 05

  And here we go.

• 2:38Speaker 06

  Yeah. Hi, thank you for having us.

• 2:40Speaker 05

  We're so excited to be here, really. Thank you.

• 2:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Thrilled to have you, thrilled to have you in a time like this. I think we should go back to the ketamine conversation.

• 2:48Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:49Georgia Hardstark?

  We're just chit chatting.

• 2:50Speaker 06

  We've been calling her Ketamine Karen, she's in the studio.

• 2:54Georgia Hardstark?

  She's on it right now. We're gonna do the first live podcast ketamine treatment.

• 3:00Speaker 06

  I actually grew up with horses, so it is a very apt conversation. It's a horse tranquilizer that humans have appropriated.

• 3:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:07Speaker 05

  Like they do for everything, right?

• 3:09Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true.

• 3:10Speaker 06

  Leave it to the white man in the room to be like, let's talk about appropriation. Let's talk about taking horse culture, re-appropriating it for my club, my circuit party.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  For your club nights.

• 3:21Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, ketamine therapy is what I've been doing, and it's incredible. It's helped with like, deep anxiety, I think. Like, I used to get really bad panic attacks. It just sort of like shifted the way I sort of like perceive myself when I'm like experiencing anxiety. Do you get anxiety? You're always like the cool, calm, collected one in the friendship.

• 3:42Speaker 05

  I will say that historically, I have not had anxiety, but perimenopause, that bitch. Dude. Let me tell you something. And since, really, and since then, my anxiety is ridiculous. And it's about anything. It could be about anything, about nothing, right? And I was actually going through my text messages, looking for something. And I found a thread between my cousin and I where I was saying to her that I had just come back from my gynecologist, who said to me, I think you're in perimenopause, in 2017. I am still there.

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not on any, are you on anything?

• 4:21Speaker 05

  Oh, yes. I got my patch.

• 4:24Speaker 06

  I'm on everything.

• 4:25Speaker 05

  I got my patch, but I'm not on.

• 4:27Speaker 06

  Not on ketamine yet, okay.

• 4:29Speaker 05

  But I'm not on ketamine and I feel like the anxiety is such that it can almost paralyze you.

• 4:35Speaker 06

  Yes, I've been there.

• 4:36Speaker 05

  And I think for me, what was so surprising is that I didn't know what was happening to me.

• 4:40Speaker 06

  Right.

• 4:40Speaker 05

  So I just thought I was going crazy.

• 4:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 4:42Speaker 06

  No, I remember when you and I, you and I were connecting a couple of years ago when this was starting to happen.

• 4:47Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 4:47Speaker 06

  And you were like, I actually think I'm going insane.

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, they didn't talk about it in 2017. It's just now that we're finding out this stuff.

• 4:54Speaker 05

  This huge explosion. And I remember, you know, I went to my mom and I was just like, did you have this? No.

• 5:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep, same. My mom, my mom never had, turns out.

• 5:03Speaker 05

  No.

• 5:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep.

• 5:03Speaker 06

  Totally fine.

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  They just got hot every once in a while. Other than that, it was fine.

• 5:06Speaker 05

  But I can tell you.

• 5:07Speaker 06

  Can we turn the air on? I'm sorry. Can we get the air on?

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Actually, yes.

• 5:11Speaker 05

  I'm so hot. But it's what, interestingly, I remember when my mom, I didn't know what it was at the time.

• 5:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 5:18Speaker 05

  But I remember there was this period of time where I felt like my mother was going insane.

• 5:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 5:23Speaker 05

  And I remember saying that to my dad. I think something's wrong with mom. And he was like, like what? And I was like, I don't know.

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm a child.

• 5:29Speaker 05

  I wasn't, I was in my twenties, but like she was acting so crazy and she, in hindsight, I'm realizing, was having panic attacks, was having anxiety. It's when her claustrophobia really sort of exploded.

• 5:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Those hot flashes, like you can't explain that to someone who won't get them, that it does feel like claustrophobia a little bit. Like you're just, you need to take off all of your clothes now and you're angry about it.

• 5:52Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 5:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Very angry.

• 5:55Speaker 06

  No, I've been there. I'm not going through menopause, but I have angrily wanted to rip my clothes off before.

• 6:00Speaker 05

  I can remember one day, like coming off of the subway, going into the office and feeling like I was going to die. I went into the ladies room, I took off all my clothes and pressed my back up against. I swear to you. Pressed my back up against the stainless steel door.

• 6:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It felt so good.

• 6:16Speaker 05

  Because the heat is coming from inside the house.

• 6:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 6:21Speaker 05

  Horrible.

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like what they say though.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  It's totally.

• 6:24Karen Kilgariff?

  You just can't control it in any way.

• 6:26Speaker 05

  Nope.

• 6:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And it is a surprise. The thing that's driving me crazy is now on TikTok, the big thing where they're talking about, oh, in women's medicine, they've never done any research about the way A, B, C, D.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  No.

• 6:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So this idea that now in 2025, we're suddenly talking about perimenopause and menopause is a disgrace. It's insane.

• 6:44Speaker 06

  Well, historically, they would just be like, oh, you're crazy.

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Speaker 06

  Why don't you just not be crazy?

• 6:49Speaker 05

  I had read this thing where they were talking about, so fucked up, but like burning witches at the stake. And the women were usually like in their 40s.

• 7:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:01Speaker 06

  Oh, my God.

• 7:02Speaker 05

  I mean, again, I don't, I don't know if it's.

• 7:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But I mean, that fits.

• 7:06Speaker 05

  But it fits, right? It kind of makes you like, okay, that's what it is.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. I think about my mom too. And like she had to get on, you know, antidepressants and anti-anxiety. And yeah, it was probably just hormones.

• 7:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But they didn't check that back then.

• 7:19Speaker 06

  Melissa called me one day and she was like, I honestly am so filled with rage. I think, I don't know if this is attorney-client confidentiality that I'm breaching right now.

• 7:27Speaker 05

  I didn't do anything, so it's fine, but I wanted to.

• 7:29Speaker 06

  She was like, I actually am concerned about what I might do to someone.

• 7:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:34Speaker 06

  Like, I am so angry.

• 7:35Speaker 05

  And like, I mean, I don't know if this is sort of related, but a little bit. So a few months ago, do you remember this? A few months ago, I was getting off the subway and I.

• 7:44Speaker 06

  Oh, we talked about this on the show. We talked about this on our podcast.

• 7:46Speaker 05

  I accidentally stepped on the back of someone's foot and I said, oh, excuse me. This man turned around and he kicked me.

• 7:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 7:54Speaker 05

  Wait, that's not even the worst part of it.

• 7:57Speaker 06

  And I was the first caller. It was like, okay, assault on the subway.

• 7:59Speaker 05

  I kicked him back.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 8:01Speaker 06

  She.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  But like, that was a part of it that like.

• 8:04Karen Kilgariff?

  You were wrong. You were wrong.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  But like, that is not who I am. I don't kick people. But I kicked this man back and this other man behind me came.

• 8:15Speaker 06

  He was like.

• 8:15Speaker 05

  No, no, no. No, no, I didn't kick him too.

• 8:17Karen Kilgariff?

  The other man behind you.

• 8:19Speaker 06

  Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles moment.

• 8:21Speaker 05

  Very gently touched me in the back and was like, don't do this. And I was like, he kicked me.

• 8:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, what an angel, that person.

• 8:28Speaker 05

  I know.

• 8:29Speaker 06

  Let's deescalate.

• 8:30Speaker 05

  I was shaking. I was so enraged and I feel like. That has never been me before.

• 8:36Speaker 06

  No.

• 8:36Speaker 05

  Right. And I don't know if Taraji Henson was on somebody's podcast and she said that she really feels that we are born with a certain amount of fucks to give. And by the time you get, yes, and by the time you get to your 50s, you are out of fucks. I am 53 years old, I am negative fucks.

• 8:58Speaker 05

  So keep your feet to yourself.

• 8:59Speaker 06

  Keep your fucking feet to yourself, you're gonna lose a toe bitch.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  And I'm willing to go down like it's.

• 9:06Speaker 06

  Instant, instant violence.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  What kind of, what level of violence can you enact on someone who just kicked you without getting?

• 9:14Speaker 06

  Okay, so under tort law, you have a duty breach causation and harm. So you have a duty to behave a certain way in society.

• 9:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 9:21Speaker 06

  If there is a breach such as someone kicks you, then that duty's been breached. It has to be the causation, you have to cause someone's harm. So the harm is usually damages. So in this situation, there were, the harm sounds mostly emotional, I think, is what we can ascertain. So I would say that it probably wouldn't pass the sniff test for a court, a civil suit. Usually it's there's some sort of documented medical issue.

• 9:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Either way, with her, her side or that man's side?

• 9:52Speaker 06

  It depends on the state. So this was in New York, so it depends contributory negligence. So if you were someone who contributed to the other person's harm and they harmed you as well, it kind of like cancels out in some cases. So it sometimes comes out in the wash, but.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So would her flat tire and then the kick wash?

• 10:10Speaker 06

  I.

• 10:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I need to know.

• 10:13Speaker 06

  A flat tire is technically not.

• 10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:17Speaker 06

  And damages.

• 10:17Speaker 05

  I also apologized, right? Like it wasn't just like I was like.

• 10:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That was, you were at zero.

• 10:22Speaker 06

  That was a curable, yeah, we cured in the moment.

• 10:24Speaker 05

  The other thing I will say is that, to be fair, neither one of us had any power behind the kick.

• 10:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like the kick was symbolic.

• 10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It was middle school.

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Fifth graders.

• 10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I punched my best friend in high school and I really didn't mean it. Like, so I didn't hurt her.

• 10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It just came out.

• 10:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, he didn't hurt me and I didn't hurt him. I think I was just, I was so offended. Right? I was offended.

• 10:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Symbolic kick.

• 10:46Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 10:47Speaker 06

  Well, also to go from, okay, a slight accident.

• 10:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  To, okay, intentional harm.

• 10:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 10:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 10:55Speaker 05

  Violence, violence.

• 10:57Speaker 06

  It's such a crazy choice. That is a wild decision.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  It's New York City in the morning on a commute. It's happened to all of us, right? It's like, get over yourself asshole.

• 11:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, get over it.

• 11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But in these trying times. Are you seeing this? Is this a thing that's like an escalating thing where the normal interaction would have been no problem from that guy?

• 11:17Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But now everyone is under this insane stress.

• 11:20Speaker 05

  Do you think this? I feel like we are still not okay from the pandemic.

• 11:24Speaker 06

  Yes, I was just gonna bring up this pandemic.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We just kind of walked out of it.

• 11:28Speaker 06

  She was like, yeah, we were like, okay, back to work divas. Like, we weren't like, oh, we should all probably go to therapy.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That was traumatic.

• 11:34Speaker 05

  It was really traumatizing, right? I mean, we were stuck inside the house and it felt like, and it's easy, I think, to look back on and be like, okay, we made it out relatively okay, right? But in the very beginning, it felt like the zombie apocalypse was upon us. It was very scary.

• 11:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Pizza delivery was going to kill us. Like, that's the thing we thought, like, we all thought we were going to die.

• 11:56Karen Kilgariff?

  We were wiping down cereal boxes.

• 11:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, cereal.

• 11:59Speaker 05

  Leaving the mail outside, right? Like, you know, it was, it was, and, you know, and it didn't help that the commander in chief at the time, whatever how you feel, in the very beginning did not take it seriously enough. And there were a lot of people that we thought we could trust who were saying, it's like getting a cold. Is it?

• 12:18Speaker 06

  Tell to the ventilators.

• 12:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 12:20Speaker 05

  Right, exactly.

• 12:21Speaker 06

  Remember when we were watching Italy? We were like, oh. And it was, we were watching what was happening in Italy.

• 12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  The bodies like stacked up in the trucks.

• 12:28Speaker 05

  Yes, in Brazil, it was awful.

• 12:29Speaker 06

  And in New York, there were choppers overhead 24/7. So it was like living in like this Saving Private Ryan situation.

• 12:36Speaker 05

  Yes. The streets were so empty and it was bizarre. And I also think what's interesting, like, you also saw that, like, wildlife came back around, right?

• 12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 12:47Speaker 06

  The pizza wrap.

• 12:48Speaker 05

  The water was cleaner because, because as

• 12:52Speaker 06

  We were drinking from the East River.

• 12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a beautiful time.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  It was. It was a magical time, right?

• 12:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I've never seen out my front window of a beautiful view of the valley and it was crystal clear. I could see so far that I was like, what is that mountain over there? I've never seen that before.

• 13:10Speaker 05

  I mean, it just shows you like, we are the problem.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, 100%.

• 13:14Speaker 06

  We are.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  Human beings are the problem.

• 13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  It's us.

• 13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether it's on the subway or up where the viewers.

• 13:20Speaker 05

  It's all of it. We are the problem.

• 13:22Karen Kilgariff?

  It's true.

• 13:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  How are you guys going to solve that problem on your podcast?

• 13:26Speaker 06

  So anyway, yes, we, we actually, we have a 10 step plan.

• 13:30Speaker 05

  10?

• 13:30Speaker 06

  It starts with 10 toes down, kicking people on the subway. That's the whole plan. But yeah, so we're excited about the show. I mean, we actually are approaching a lot of these issues on the podcast. I, for the people who maybe know me from the internet, maybe they don't, everything I do, there has to be a, this is what you can do button on the end of it. I don't want any more doom scrolling. I don't want any more think pieces about fascism. It's not interesting to me. It is depressing, speaking of ketamine, and it's just not something I'm interested in consuming anymore. And I just feel there's like this, I'm not a journalist, but I am like a citizen who has at least some knowledge of what folks

• 14:14Speaker 06

  can do to flex their democratic muscles, to combat what's going on in this country. I do a lot of work with immigration advocacy. So I, a lot of what I do is like, okay, this is literally what you can do from your sofa right now. If this is pissing you off, if this is bothering you. So we don't cover any fucking story that doesn't have something at the end where it's like, this is what you can do if you didn't like this and you want to do something.

• 14:37Speaker 05

  A teaching moment.

• 14:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:38Speaker 05

  Super teaching moment.

• 14:39Speaker 06

  And like, not like a like didactic, educational, like sit down and eat your vegetables situation. It's like, no, we're going to talk to this congressman. And I think in the first episode, we talked to a congressman.

• 14:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 06

  And I'm like, dude, what is the literal to do list of what you are doing to fix?

• 14:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's overwhelming.

• 14:55Speaker 05

  It's very overwhelming.

• 14:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Especially on, on, on social media. It's like, no, that person was wrong. You have to do this. No, this person is wrong. You have to do that. This is, you know, and it's just, you don't know where to start.

• 15:04Speaker 05

  And I think that the great thing is that because Michael is an attorney, he sort of understands the law, but I am not though. So I feel like maybe I can represent like, Most people in the audience, right? So I'll ask him questions like, okay, that's great for you as an attorney to go in and help one person. What can I do? What can I do? And I think, I think a lot of us are, have grown weary of hearing this advice of like, well, right, you're a congressman. All right. Sure. Yes.

• 15:31Speaker 06

  Stop it. What the fuck is, no.

• 15:33Speaker 05

  Right.

• 15:33Georgia Hardstark?

  What is this, the fucking Victorian?

• 15:35Speaker 05

  Right.

• 15:36Speaker 06

  Write a letter. Nineteenth century.

• 15:38Speaker 05

  Write a sternly worded.

• 15:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Stamp it with your.

• 15:41Speaker 05

  Missive.

• 15:42Speaker 06

  And a correct note. Letters on a train.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  Right. What, what can I actually do, right? As somebody, as a layperson, you know, somebody who has sort of average resources, right? And like, I don't have a huge social media presence, but what can I do? What are the conversations that I can have with people? And I think, you know, at the end, we're all looking for hope, right? But, but real hope, not like airy fairy. Do you know what I mean? Like, I hate, like, I hate that. Like, well, you could just sort of like, I love my family very much, but like.

• 16:14Speaker 06

  I love a qualified statement.

• 16:15Speaker 05

  No, no, no, you have to say it, right? But like, a lot of the times, and if you are, if we're on, we have WhatsApp groups, and I think this is like a very sort of immigrant sort of situation, there's a family WhatsApp group.

• 16:27Speaker 06

  Melissa's family is from Haiti.

• 16:28Speaker 05

  From Haiti. And they are big prayers, right? They love to pray. They love a good saint. And, and I think what I get really frustrated at is like, you know, God is in charge. That's great.

• 16:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:42Speaker 05

  That's great. If you are a believer, not everybody is, and that's also okay. But what can I do?

• 16:47Speaker 06

  We also have like, non-deities in charge too, who have responsibilities.

• 16:51Georgia Hardstark?

  In the meantime, because it seems like there's like, kind of a disconnect, the internet connection isn't great between us and like, you know, G O D.

• 16:58Speaker 05

  Right, right, right.

• 16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  In the meantime.

• 16:59Speaker 05

  In the meantime.

• 17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Dialogue is getting better.

• 17:02Speaker 06

  What is God's broadband?

• 17:03Speaker 05

  What can we, what can we actually do? What is, you know, what is one thing that I can do, right? Like, an individual thing?

• 17:10Speaker 06

  That's how, I mean, the podcast kind of came together, was because Melissa and I would sort of get together and we'd be like, what are we, what is going on? What can we do? And we would kind of talk about it, especially around like, the Black Lives Matter movement. We were sort of figuring out like, and, and those. Were the dark days of the pandemic. Right, right, right. That was that first year. Yeah. What can we do? How can we be safe? How can we, what can we do if we get arrested? What happens if something goes down at a protest? Like, people were getting beaten in the streets for no reason. Right, right, right. So we were kind of looking at each other as, just as dear friends. Right, like, what do we do? What do we do? How do we help? Yeah, so that was really like, when we came into the show, we were like, alright, that is the governing principle. That is our guiding light.

• 17:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that because it's like, when two people who agree completely talk, it's like, now turn to us. And that's, that's a podcast.

• 17:58Speaker 06

  Exactly, yeah, exactly.

• 18:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, we love true crime together. Let's fucking talk to each other about it.

• 18:04Karen Kilgariff?

  It makes me think, though, about, you know, the amazing No Kings protests. But then, of course, like, the two, three days later, we start to hear on social media is like, protests don't do anything. Marches don't do anything.

• 18:16Speaker 06

  What did that do?

• 18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like, just as a person who isn't, you know, I grew up in the 80s and 90s where political action was not cool. It was like, you don't talk about that. That's for those people that want to, like, the student UN or whatever. And like, everybody else needs to be rock and roll. And you're watching, you know, the fall of democracy kind of in front of you.

• 18:36Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 18:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And, and me seeing that where I'm like, that feels like a bad faith voice that's now in here, when clearly that was powerful and huge.

• 18:45Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly.

• 18:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And then I'm, then you see the ICE raids and you see these people being taken and the rest of the community just coming right up and around. And then they walk away. And I'm like, that's what it does.

• 18:57Speaker 06

  That's what it does. Right, and that is the best part about it, right? And it's so fun, I mean, my husband and I, we go, we take the dog for a walk every night. And we have like a debrief. We do like our daily sort of like debrief.

• 19:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Love it. Is it one of those dogs on your shirt?

• 19:11Speaker 06

  Jack is a bad dog. Jack is a bad. Jack is a very bad dog. He's a villain. I love it. He's wanted in all 50 states. Yes, 100%. Sexual offender, Megan's Law, just humping strangers and dogs in the store. Like, he is a wild animal. He is a rescue. He lives with two men for a reason because he can't handle any other situation. And he's 13, going, losing his mind, dementia. Yeah, just watch your back. Does he have dementia? Yeah, oh, yeah. He's like, he's starting to sunset at night. He just, he's so good, but he's... I love him.

• 19:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, of course you do.

• 19:42Speaker 06

  He's becoming even more adorable and endearing as he just becomes like this crusty goblin. And is just like wandering around the house late at night.

• 19:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I have a senile cat and she screams.

• 19:55Speaker 05

  Mimi.

• 19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Mimi.

• 19:57Speaker 05

  How old is Mimi?

• 19:59Georgia Hardstark?

  She's like 16.

• 20:00Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 20:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's going through it. And people keep giving us catnip toys shaped in knives, like bloody knives and axes. So she carries a bloody knife around the house, screaming. I don't know. Sorry. This is not here or there.

• 20:10Speaker 05

  That's a true crime.

• 20:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She's pitching you her new horror movie.

• 20:14Speaker 06

  She's coming from inside the house.

• 20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I know.

• 20:17Karen Kilgariff?

  The irony of being killed by a cat is so sad.

• 20:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm kind of okay with that.

• 20:22Speaker 06

  That's actually, that's probably in Final Destination 3 or something.

• 20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, she's a sweet kitty.

• 20:25Speaker 06

  The cat comes out of nowhere.

• 20:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, you're walking your dog.

• 20:27Speaker 06

  We go on these walks and we sort of debrief like, and we were talking about the New Kings protest and I was like, Brad, like, what did it do? Like, why is this important? And like, he's like much more emotionally stable than I am. And he was like, think about like the impression that made on everyone, not, not the president.

• 20:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 06

  Everyone else in an elected position in government saw this outcry, saw all these people coming out. And when you're looking at that crowd as an elected official, who isn't in the White House? You're seeing the people who are going to vote or not vote for you in the next election.

• 21:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 06

  That is the real power of something like that.

• 21:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Interesting.

• 21:06Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 21:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, yeah. What else does protesting do? That sounds so dorky, but like, I really want to know, because I'm scared to go out in big crowds like that. And like, what's going to happen?

• 21:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 21:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Is it smart to like, you know, get in the middle of an ICE raid? Is it smart to, like, what, what should you do if you see that?

• 21:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's a really good question. I, I asked that question too. I, you know, what do I do if ICE comes into my neighborhood? What do I do if ICE comes to my workplace? What can I do? I mean, there's a part of me that feels like if they're in my neighborhood, I'm going to go out and just start yelling. I mean, immigration is here. Don't open your doors. Don't open your doors. Immigration. I feel safe doing that.

• 21:43Speaker 06

  The ACLU currently has a lawsuit up against this administration, against ICE, because they are arresting American citizens.

• 21:51Speaker 06

  And they're being held in detention centers, which is a clear violation of so many constitutional.

• 21:56Speaker 05

  Did you see that when they tried to? The guy yelling, I'm from the Bronx. No, Brooklyn. I'm from Brooklyn.

• 22:04Speaker 05

  This New, the New Yorker in me, just my heart just opened up and he was just like, suck my dick. Yeah, I love it.

• 22:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That and the girl in the polka dot dress.

• 22:14Speaker 06

  Oh, my God, that was so crazy.

• 22:16Speaker 05

  With a double middle finger. Love her.

• 22:18Speaker 06

  For me, I'm just like, I mean, I always think know thyself is like the governing principle in everything I do. It's like, OK, I know I'm a white man. I'm usually in a suit and a tie. I'm usually at like an immigration courthouse. I am going to be the person who's in the middle. Like, that is how I need to like exercise that privilege.

• 22:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You can stand up.

• 22:35Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly. My, I get incredible privileges in life, being a white man in a suit, who has an education. I can walk right past security guards into any building or business in New York City. Security doesn't follow me around stores. OK, I get all these like fun privileges when I get pulled over. Nothing weird happens. OK, what can I do to help those people who don't have those same privileges? Right? So how can I intervene in that adversarial situation where someone's getting arrested?

• 23:03Georgia Hardstark?

  How can we? Like, how can that people like us?

• 23:06Speaker 06

  Yeah. So thinking a lot about like, depending on the situation, like I can't advise people to break the law because I'll lose my license.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Come on, do it.

• 23:14Speaker 06

  But, I mean, definitely attending protests, definitely contacting. It depends on the situation too, right? I mean, there's this incredible image on TikTok of like, a young girl in like a Pilates outfit with an iced coffee, sitting down in front of a car that has migrants in it. It's just sitting in front of a car that's trying to drive away.

• 23:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:34Speaker 06

  People who've been detained.

• 23:35Speaker 05

  I think, I think you, you figure out what your comfort level is, right? And then maybe, and as time goes by, maybe you push it a little bit, right? So, you know, I think I said this on our show, right? I was talking to somebody and I'm like, you know, if somebody says something in front of you that is clearly racist or xenophobic, and they think it's a joke, my favorite thing to do is to make that person feel uncomfortable, right?

• 23:58Speaker 06

  Oh, my God, this is the Melissa does this, and she is an absolute fucking villain.

• 24:02Speaker 05

  Oh, tell us. So like somebody's, and I'm just like, oh, wait, I don't understand. Like, turn it around to me. I don't understand why that's funny.

• 24:11Speaker 06

  The person will be like, well, because, you know, you know, they're, you know.

• 24:15Speaker 05

  And I'm like, whisper it. And he whisper it.

• 24:20Speaker 06

  And Melissa will be like, what? Sorry, I couldn't hear you. What was that?

• 24:25Speaker 05

  I don't, I don't understand. Wait, so it's funny because of that. And then eventually, yeah, the person is just like frozen and they're just like, oh no. I mean, so you.

• 24:34Speaker 06

  Someone at one point was like, Melissa, because they're, you know.

• 24:37Speaker 05

  Touching their hair, their skin. Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 06

  Dry skin.

• 24:40Speaker 05

  I was like, Melissa. Yes.

• 24:44Speaker 05

  And then like blank, blank, blank, blank, like when you're, and frankly, the audacity, right? Of somebody to come up to me, a black woman, and be like, because, and this person was not a black person or a person of color, and they were just like, because, you know. What?

• 24:59Speaker 06

  So crazy.

• 25:00Speaker 05

  And I was like, what are you saying? Now, I didn't feel like, again, I'm not somebody who kicks people, right? So I, I did not. I heard a different story about that.

• 25:09Speaker 06

  As her attorney, I'm gonna have to put a halt to the questioning.

• 25:13Speaker 05

  But, but if you are not somebody who is sort of naturally aggressive, right? Or you're not somebody who likes to sort of cause a scene, you do it in the space where you are. Right? So I made this person explain to me what it was that they were trying to do. And then there is something, and maybe this is me just being petty patty, but there's something that I find invigorating about watching the person deflate in that way. You are not allowed to do that in front of me. You know, there was somebody that I knew who, they had asked a question about whether or not the person was Indian. And this person said.

• 25:52Speaker 06

  Oh my God, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

• 25:53Speaker 05

  This person said, dot, not feather.

• 25:58Speaker 05

  Excuse me.

• 25:59Speaker 06

  We took great umbrage with this.

• 26:01Speaker 05

  And so, again. What is it, the 90s? Explain, explain to me what it is that you're trying to say here.

• 26:08Speaker 06

  And let people sit in that discomfort. I mean, that's what we do in court all the time, right?

• 26:12Speaker 05

  Uncomfortable until they are squirming. And hopefully, without being preachy, right? If that's not who you are. Hopefully you've turned that into some kind of a teachable moment.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:26Speaker 05

  Right? So like the same person, this person was deeply problematic, but you know,

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Seriously.

• 26:32Speaker 05

  We were talking about getting Mexican for lunch and they said, oh, you're going to Home Depot.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  What? Fired.

• 26:39Speaker 05

  Who is this person?

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Gotta go. Bring him in here, we're gonna interview him.

• 26:43Speaker 05

  I think a lot of us have sometimes people like that in our lives who think that they could say things like that and that they can get away with it. If you are not somebody who is confrontational, there is a way to turn that into a teachable moment.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  Right?

• 26:59Speaker 02

  That's kind of what your podcast is gonna be doing. I can't wait to see you guys interview people who don't agree with you.

• 27:04Speaker 05

  Oh, I.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:06Speaker 06

  Very few people agree with them.

• 27:08Speaker 05

  And I am, I'm actually, I'm actually really interested because of the rage, the rage problem that I have. Am I gonna be able to like?

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Perfect timing for a podcast.

• 27:16Speaker 05

  Or am I gonna do, what was the name of that woman from The Housewives who threw up the table?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Is that Leanne?

• 27:22Speaker 05

  Teresa.

• 27:22Speaker 06

  Teresa.

• 27:25Speaker 06

  I don't want to.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  No, neither do I.

• 27:26Speaker 05

  I know that clip.

• 27:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, yeah. And the table, we recorded the iHeart Studios in New York, which is really fun.

• 27:32Speaker 05

  Do they have, do they bolt down their table?

• 27:34Speaker 06

  We asked our producer CJ to bolt down the table just for, just for liability purposes, but I wasn't gonna, I was gonna give you an out.

• 27:41Speaker 02

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• 29:02Karen Kilgariff?

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• 29:34Karen Kilgariff?

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• 29:43Speaker 01

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• 29:45Karen Kilgariff?

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• 30:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. How has that been? Because like you guys just going in and doing your weekly video podcast.

• 30:40Speaker 06

  I know.

• 30:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that like adjustment for you guys in any way?

• 30:43Speaker 05

  It is, and I can, it's really, what's really interesting is that I can see it, right? So when I, our first one, I think when I'm watching myself, listening to myself, I feel like I came across kind of wooden. Do you know what I mean? I was nervous. I was nervous, I was anxious. And I'm used to the conversations that I have with Michael, being between Michael and I, not with cameras, not with people looking at us. But I've been able to see, we've been doing, we've done quite a few of them.

• 31:11Speaker 06

  You've done a bunch of them now, yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 05

  And I have gotten more comfortable.

• 31:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 05

  You know, even though it doesn't really feel exactly like the conversations that Michael and I had when we were alone, but it does, I feel very safe with Michael and I feel like that's coming across, right?

• 31:24Speaker 06

  Yeah. And we're talking about like difficult conversations here. I mean, we're talking about abortion rights. We're talking about access to contraceptives. We have an opportunity, people have the opportunity to leave us a voicemail and we play it on the show.

• 31:35Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 31:36Speaker 06

  Where they ask us their phone questions.

• 31:38Speaker 05

  Hell, yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 06

  People ask us all sorts of crazy stuff. I mean, we call it Tales From The DMs, where we go into like the crazy things people DM me, which is like sometimes wild.

• 31:46Speaker 05

  Absolutely insane, but I love it so much.

• 31:48Speaker 06

  And sometimes it's like admitting to a crime.

• 31:50Speaker 05

  Right, right, right.

• 31:51Karen Kilgariff?

  That TikTok, Michael made a TikTok recently just showing, there was a couple of them, right?

• 31:56Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 31:56Karen Kilgariff?

  People saying like, I did this. His client was like, I totally did it.

• 31:59Speaker 06

  I did it. LOL.

• 32:00Karen Kilgariff?

  LOL. Don't want to hear writing.

• 32:02Speaker 06

  I was like, dude, what the hell?

• 32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  In writing.

• 32:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Has a DM ever been used as evidence in a court case?

• 32:08Speaker 06

  There, oh, yeah.

• 32:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably, right?

• 32:10Speaker 06

  Absolutely, yeah. So, under the Fourth Amendment, anything you text or your phone records, you are technically sharing them with a third party and you don't have a right to privacy.

• 32:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Ah, yes.

• 32:19Speaker 06

  So if you are texting someone, technically you're texting AT&T, who then sends it to your friend. So you've already breached that expectation of confidentiality in the text message and therefore it's not protected under the Fourth Amendment, so.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I remember being way, really young and hearing that those, remember they used to have supermarket cards that they were like, membership cards?

• 32:38Speaker 06

  Yes, the BJ's card.

• 32:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, that they can subpoena that.

• 32:42Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 32:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That blew my fucking mind.

• 32:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, a guy found out that his wife was cheating on him from the EZ Pass.

• 32:47Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 32:48Speaker 06

  He got EZ Pass records of her going back and forth to her booze house, yeah.

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that'll do it.

• 32:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, that, I represented her in the divorce.

• 32:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And how's she doing?

• 32:58Speaker 06

  She's great.

• 32:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, good.

• 33:00Speaker 06

  She's got enough money to use that EZ-PAD. She's still great and hire me. Good for her. Get it, girl. You got this. Yeah. Round two.

• 33:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a public world. Like, it's that, I think that kind of information, especially for, say, a Gen X or something where it's like, that was not the truth for my whole life until 26, 7, whatever. And now suddenly it's like, oh, you're on the, on camera at the store.

• 33:23Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. I took a Waymo here. I took a Waymo here and I'm going through, I'm going down Montana Avenue and someone is filming me in the Waymo.

• 33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 33:33Speaker 06

  Because they're like, look at this self-driving car go by. And I'm like, I've been documented at this place here.

• 33:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 06

  At this moment.

• 33:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, aren't you, as a fellow Gen Xer, I'm so glad that my life was not recorded.

• 33:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 33:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, every morning I wake up and think, the Lord.

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 33:52Speaker 06

  You know what? Get it on camera right now. What was it?

• 33:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, tell us.

• 33:55Speaker 06

  Do it. Straight to camera.

• 33:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I used to do a lot of fake talk shows where I was being interviewed by David Letterman, but it was just an empty chair.

• 34:02Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. I used to drive around talking back to Terry Gross on NPR. I'd be like, oh, what was the question? And I'd go, bloop, mute, and I'd answer that, diva. I'd be like, girl, my girl Terry. I'd be chatting with her.

• 34:14Karen Kilgariff?

  This is jeopardy. And you'd be like, really trying to construct the perfect answer where you're like, Dave, the thing about me is that just, I feel like I'm a natural.

• 34:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I still do that.

• 34:24Speaker 06

  And I would do like my haunted NPR voice. You know how everyone on NPR, well, Terry, the thing about existing as a queer man in America.

• 34:33Karen Kilgariff?

  He's so calm.

• 34:34Speaker 06

  Is that we, we look at ourselves the way that we see the world.

• 34:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Who is this man?

• 34:38Speaker 06

  It's always a reflection in a mirror back of what's happening in the world around me.

• 34:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That is actually perfect.

• 34:42Speaker 06

  Isn't that a good, that's like a Terry Gross voice.

• 34:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It was very believable.

• 34:45Speaker 06

  Terry, if you're watching, book me. My agent's at CAA.

• 34:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like my voice has never gone to that decibel in natural, in the natural world ever. Such a loud person.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a beta blocker voice, which we're also talking about.

• 34:57Speaker 06

  Oh, I love a good beta blocker.

• 34:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That has got me through this tour is take a beta blocker.

• 35:02Speaker 06

  Oh, I'm waiting for the hotels to like, leave it on the pillow for me. Like, I am waiting for.

• 35:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a mint?

• 35:07Speaker 06

  The mints have gone by the wayside now that everyone's like paleo and not eating sugar.

• 35:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 35:11Speaker 06

  I want a little propenol on my pillow before bed because it does sort of just like calm you a little bit. And it's nice. It's not like a Xanax where you're like tripping.

• 35:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Nope. You can take it in the middle of the day.

• 35:21Speaker 06

  Operate heavy machinery.

• 35:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I always do.

• 35:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I recommend you don't. Please don't.

• 35:27Speaker 05

  I feel like I need to investigate this.

• 35:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You do. It's not your racing thoughts.

• 35:30Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 35:31Georgia Hardstark?

  In a way that's like, does that like Xanax does too, but you're fucked up. Yeah. You know, and like it.

• 35:36Speaker 05

  A dicky.

• 35:37Speaker 06

  It turns down the like, music playing in the background in your brain.

• 35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Yeah. Which is just Sabrina Carpenter on a loop for me.

• 35:45Speaker 06

  Yes, this is a house tour.

• 35:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Driving me fucking crazy.

• 35:47Speaker 06

  We actually, I actually, oh my God, you're the composer from Exactly Right. I don't know if he.

• 35:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Tom?

• 35:53Speaker 06

  Has a hit out on me because I had him change the music to, and I had him base it off Sabrina Carpenter. I don't know if we're allowed to say this on the show, but I sent him a house tour and I was like, can you take the underlying like 90s theme from this? Melissa and I have a lot of 90s references.

• 36:08Speaker 05

  We do.

• 36:09Speaker 06

  You know, dunkaroos.

• 36:10Speaker 05

  Even though he was, even though he was a child.

• 36:12Speaker 06

  Even though, yes.

• 36:13Speaker 05

  And I was out here making terrible decisions.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  Just a few.

• 36:17Speaker 05

  Quite a few.

• 36:18Speaker 06

  No one that.

• 36:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Name names. Wait, how did you guys meet? Speaking of that life.

• 36:22Speaker 06

  So yeah, Melissa and I have gotten to know each other through, we work together. We've known each other just for about a decade now, right?

• 36:29Speaker 05

  About 10 years.

• 36:29Speaker 06

  And we have one absolutely chaotic villainous best friend who is sort of the glue between us.

• 36:34Speaker 05

  She's my favorite.

• 36:35Speaker 06

  Alyssa, and she is our best friend.

• 36:38Speaker 05

  Alyssa is the kind of person.

• 36:39Speaker 06

  She's our ward.

• 36:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alyssa is, you know, the kind of friend that you have that is down for whatever. Alyssa, we're going to Croatia tomorrow. She's there.

• 36:50Speaker 06

  Oh, she's at the airport in.

• 36:51Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. She upgraded your, your seats.

• 36:55Speaker 06

  Oh, and she has the miles.

• 36:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 36:57Speaker 06

  Like she is never home and we track her location.

• 37:00Speaker 05

  We track her.

• 37:01Speaker 06

  Cause we kept, we have shared custody of this 37 year old woman.

• 37:05Speaker 05

  I know. Cause I worry about.

• 37:07Speaker 06

  I do too. I'm like, why are you at a casino? It's 2:00 in the morning. I'm only awake because my dog is pissing everywhere. I'm cleaning it up and I'm checking her location. Why are you at a casino?

• 37:16Speaker 05

  What are you doing? She's like, oh, I, I just got here.

• 37:19Speaker 06

  Wait, do you remember when her, she left her phone at a Yankees game?

• 37:22Speaker 05

  And Angel found it?

• 37:23Speaker 06

  At a Yankees game and a guy named Angel in the Bronx found it.

• 37:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, he did.

• 37:26Speaker 06

  And she was like, I'm gonna go meet this guy Angel and he's got my phone. And I was like, you are not.

• 37:31Speaker 05

  Absolutely not.

• 37:32Speaker 06

  We're going with you.

• 37:34Speaker 05

  No, you can't do this.

• 37:34Speaker 06

  I went with her. I was like, you're paying for the Uber. I'm coming with her. I'm your security. And we went and got her fucking phone back to Rachel.

• 37:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That is a good friend.

• 37:42Speaker 06

  It was. It was more the paperwork alone. If something happened to her. That's true, right. I'm not doing that paperwork. I'm not talking to her parents about this. It is untenable. It's not gonna happen.

• 37:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Could Alyssa ever make an appearance on the podcast, do you think?

• 37:57Speaker 06

  Um, yeah.

• 37:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Chaotic corner with Alyssa?

• 37:59Speaker 06

  Well, the problem is she would have to be there on time. Never mind. Yes, but I do think at some point she's gonna get so mad. She does have major FOMO. She does. She's gonna kick down that fucking studio door. At the very least, I'd have to have her call in. In a chunky boot.

• 38:15Karen Kilgariff?

  What can she bring to the table? What can she help with, do we think? What is she? What's her strength?

• 38:20Speaker 06

  Alyssa just brings herself, like the Alyssa energy. Like, everybody needs a friend like that, truly. I went to a drag show with Alyssa last weekend in Brooklyn, and she- Let the record reflect, they never asked me to go to any of these things. Well, okay, it was, we went at midnight. Okay. And I had a couple of drinks with me, and Alyssa's always out. So I text her, I was like, "Meet me at the show." I'm in the bar, and I can see her through the window, 50 feet away. And I'm there for like 10 minutes watching her on her phone. And I'm like, "What are you doing?" So I called her, because I'm like, "I know you're on your phone." And I'm in here throwing dollar bills at a drag queen. Yep, as one does. "Sorry, booking a flight." She was booking a flight at midnight, drunk. On the street. It's all the time.

• 39:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Where'd she go?

• 39:06Speaker 06

  I don't think she knew. And it was like, that is a computer activity. That's not a phone app. We don't book flights from our phone. That's a laptop on the kitchen table. That's a desktop situation. We're not doing this on our phone. She does. I'm too scared.

• 39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I do it all the time, as it's, not flights, obviously, but like, "Can you use your phone for things like that in public? Should you? I don't know. No, I don't think so."

• 39:31Speaker 06

  I've been, yeah. Because you're putting, because you're putting your credit card information.

• 39:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but how are they gonna-

• 39:36Speaker 06

  My credit cards have been stolen all the time. Yes. I think they think I'm running game. Because it's like, it's always like 80, like $800 of vapes in Queens. Were bought on my credit card. Yes. They go to the vape store, like down the road, like 10 different vape shops.

• 39:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Stock up while we have this credit card available.

• 39:54Speaker 06

  And I'm on the phone with the person from Amex, and I'm like, "I swear, I'm not vaping." I promise, listen to this, listen to this voice. It's not a vaping voice. This is my instrument. It's a hard smoker, okay? Right. This is American spirit.

• 40:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I have the like class to do American spirits on these.

• 40:09Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 40:11Speaker 07

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• 40:39Speaker 02

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• 40:43Karen Kilgariff?

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• 40:48Speaker 02

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• 40:53Karen Kilgariff?

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• 41:01Karen Kilgariff?

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• 41:08Speaker 02

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• 41:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 41:18Speaker 02

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• 41:19Karen Kilgariff?

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• 41:24Speaker 02

  Goodbye. Buying furniture is a lot of pressure. It has to look good, feel good, and hold up to everyday life.

• 41:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Take it from me, a bad couch can ruin your life.

• 41:33Speaker 02

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• 41:38Karen Kilgariff?

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• 41:42Speaker 02

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• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And with Article's 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. Man, there was nothing I loved more than when I was broke and I could still buy furniture that I needed at Article. It wasn't cheap-looking. It's like I was investing in these pieces that were comparatively inexpensive and I was like finishing rooms. I was like getting the kitchen table that was like bringing the whole thing together. And it was such an incredible thing because I never got to do that before. I love that about Article.

• 42:25Speaker 02

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• 42:29Karen Kilgariff?

  To claim, visit article.com/murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

• 42:34Speaker 02

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• 42:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+

• 42:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception: his mom.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 42:58Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 43:09Karen Kilgariff?

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• 43:17Speaker 02

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• 43:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Goodbye. Well, maybe she'd be great at, you guys could do, like, pick a side.

• 43:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 43:31Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. We could do a great debate.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  She'd be great about that.

• 43:35Speaker 06

  She would be actually really good at that.

• 43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  If you don't know, this is a little game.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Where essentially, we just make you pick a side in a very benign argument.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  People write in just their basic problems. We're not going to solve anyone's big problems. Don't fucking listen to us.

• 43:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not our thing.

• 43:47Speaker 06

  I love how they hired a litigator to come in and fucking fight about something.

• 43:51Karen Kilgariff?

  To finally settle.

• 43:52Speaker 06

  I will die on a hill right now.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Right?

• 43:54Speaker 06

  Okay, I'm so ready.

• 43:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want me to go first?

• 43:56Speaker 02

  If you have a good one, let's do it.

• 43:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's see. The subject line of the email was 17 years of contention. "Hi, friends. Boy, do I have the lowest stakes, longest-running pick-a-side for you. My husband and I have been married for 17 years, and at least twice a month for that entire time, we have argued over which is better: the basic Kraft mac and cheese with the powder, or the Velveeta shells and cheese with the sauce pack. I'm not going to tell you who prefers which, so as not to bias your opinion. This is such a low-stakes issue. We will both eat either. Our kids will eat either. It's just an argument over preference, but I want the upper hand, so I'm hoping you ladies agree with me. Thanks for everything you do, bro."

• 44:35Speaker 06

  Okay, do you want to rock, paper, scissors for a side?

• 44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you go ahead first.

• 44:38Speaker 06

  Okay. Well...

• 44:41Speaker 06

  Should I do like an opening statement?

• 44:42Speaker 05

  I wish you would.

• 44:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Be a professional.

• 44:44Speaker 06

  Thank you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I will be representing the Velveeta cheese here in court today. And you're going to hear a lot from the defense about what is and is not cheese and what constitutes cheese. We have experts here in the courtroom who are going to talk about the process that powders go through and how they are still cheese even though they're reconstituted. However, let's say an animal gets run over in front of your house, right? Very sad, very tragic, and no one comes and cleans it up. And it's a particularly dry season and it dries out, right? And then it rains and it reconstitutes. Is that still an animal? I don't think so.

• 45:25Speaker 06

  And you're going to hear a lot from the defense about what is and is not reconstituted cheese here today. And what I'm here to tell you is that it isn't because Velveeta is in its purest form. We're not modifying, we're not adding. You don't have to add and take away in order to give something its original shape, texture, and taste. So.

• 45:49Speaker 05

  In closing.

• 45:50Speaker 06

  In conclusion, Velveeta is and always will be the best mac and cheese.

• 45:58Speaker 05

  The best box mac and cheese?

• 45:59Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 46:00Speaker 05

  Okay, so I'm not going to do what Michael just did. I couldn't do that anyway.

• 46:06Speaker 06

  You say that all the time. Whatever Michael just did.

• 46:09Speaker 05

  I'm not doing that.

• 46:13Speaker 05

  I hate them both, but I suppose that's the problem is that I don't like fake cheese and they both feel like fake cheese to me. However, there is a certain level of creaminess to the Velveeta shells, mac and cheese. What I wish, though, what I wish, deeply, deeply wish. I don't like my mac and cheese with shells. I like my mac and cheese with like the elbow type, right? So if we could do- With macaroni. With macaroni. If we could do the creamy mac and cheese with the right pasta. Has anyone done that? I don't know. You know, there's somebody out there that buys both and combines the both.

• 46:55Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 46:56Speaker 05

  That's what I would go for that.

• 46:57Speaker 06

  I like the shell because it gets kind of stuck in there.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  Mm-mm.

• 47:01Speaker 06

  You don't like that?

• 47:02Speaker 05

  No, no, no. That answer is just so diplomatic. It's just like-

• 47:05Speaker 06

  It is very much, yeah. Carrie Russell in the diplomat.

• 47:08Speaker 05

  But I feel like that's a Melissa Malbranche response.

• 47:12Speaker 06

  Yes, yeah.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  That's how you do it. That's usually how I do it.

• 47:15Speaker 06

  Melissa Malbranche's responses are always like, it's all disgusting.

• 47:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:18Speaker 06

  However, I will say that, you know, I do make my own bechamel for my mac and cheese.

• 47:22Speaker 05

  I do.

• 47:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, she does. See?

• 47:25Speaker 05

  Fancy lady. Who's your, what's your recipe? Um, a combination. Ina has a good one. My grandmother had a good one. I usually come, combine all those things. It can't just be the one kind of cheese. You need several cheeses.

• 47:38Speaker 06

  You do. Each one has a different purpose.

• 47:41Speaker 05

  And I like a baked mac and cheese as opposed to a stove top mac and cheese. But they, they have different purposes.

• 47:47Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 47:48Speaker 05

  One is late night. Yes. Stone drunk. I need something to snack on. Feed your kids, shove it in their mouth, be done.

• 47:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, we're always, Melissa's always making fun of me because I go to Taco Bell when I am just glazed over. And people will recognize me as like the TikTok lawyer at 4 a.m. Taco Bell. Because it's all like 22 year olds from TikTok at the Taco Bell, leaving the frat party. Except for you. Except for me, I'm like-

• 48:13Speaker 05

  Long in the tooth.

• 48:14Speaker 06

  Melissa says I'm a little long in the tooth to be going out all night.

• 48:16Speaker 05

  Hey Taco Bell divas.

• 48:17Speaker 06

  Hey divas. Diva, you're not supposed to get the cheese, a cracker. When I am there, sometimes people will be like, so my landlord's giving me trouble.

• 48:26Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 48:27Speaker 06

  And I'm like- I've got one eye on last weekend and one eye on next weekend. That is, and gone. There is no way I could be giving legal advice at this point. And Brad stepped in the one time. He was like, he cannot be giving, do not listen to anything he's saying.

• 48:40Speaker 05

  Cause he will, right?

• 48:41Speaker 06

  Because he was at the club with me seeing what I was doing. He was like, you should not be talking to anyone right now.

• 48:46Speaker 05

  Hit me up in 48 hours when I've recovered. Yes.

• 48:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's true.

• 48:50Speaker 05

  Okay. Want another one? Wait, where do you guys come in?

• 48:54Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. We don't matter.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we were trying to make you guys argue. Well, I have very early daycare memories of Kraft mac and cheese that when I smell it, I'd just go like that.

• 49:08Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That kind of like, I realized I was being warehoused at age four and I was just like, what the fuck is this?

• 49:14Speaker 06

  Visceral reaction. Yeah. I can smell a Chobani yogurt across the subway platform. I can triangulate someone's fucking location based off that goddamn Chobani smell. You know that smell.

• 49:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Speaker 06

  It's like

• 49:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Pottery.

• 49:27Speaker 06

  The airport at 5:00 AM.

• 49:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Sour.

• 49:30Speaker 06

  You didn't sleep. You're waiting to board.

• 49:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Coat your stomach.

• 49:34Speaker 06

  For the Southwest. They're already, yeah.

• 49:36Georgia Hardstark?

  You're making me so sad right now.

• 49:38Speaker 06

  Anyway, sorry. Bring us back. Bring us back.

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I have a Midwestern husband who loves snacks and like really bad food. So he buys the little cups, individual cups of Kraft.

• 49:49Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:49Georgia Hardstark?

  We do the powder. We mix it up. It's like perfect. And then you add more cheese.

• 49:53Speaker 06

  Oh, from the fridge.

• 49:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Real cheese.

• 49:55Speaker 06

  You gotta get that Tillamook up in here.

• 49:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 49:58Speaker 06

  I don't know what they're doing at the Tillamook factory.

• 50:00Speaker 05

  They're delicious.

• 50:01Karen Kilgariff?

  They're just happy people. They're living in a beautiful valley.

• 50:04Speaker 06

  I met one of the employees and he was, yes, he's like dating my cousin. They might be married. I didn't, if I didn't send a gift, I'm sorry.

• 50:13Speaker 05

  No, you're not. No, you're not.

• 50:15Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a gift to getting a comment.

• 50:18Speaker 06

  And he was like, I've worked there for years and it's like the most wonderful employer. It was like, it was actually, I think it might be a cult.

• 50:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And we, I, we stopped there on the way from like Portland to the, to the ocean. And it's this gorgeous, it looks like you're, you suddenly went into the picture on the front of a package of cheese. Like the little hills, the like green hills go like this and in the split.

• 50:41Speaker 05

  Idyllic.

• 50:42Speaker 06

  And there's like a cow perfectly staged.

• 50:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And they have a dairy and a factory that you can tour. And then at the end you can buy whatever they make. And there's this big ice cream shop. So everybody there at the end of the tour is eating triple scoop of ice creams and smiling.

• 50:58Georgia Hardstark?

  They're singing.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Like frolicking.

• 51:02Speaker 06

  What's everyone's ice cream order? That's a good one. That's a good, yeah.

• 51:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Peanut butter and chocolate.

• 51:06Speaker 06

  Peanut butter and chocolate?

• 51:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Cookies and cream.

• 51:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 51:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 05

  Um, Ben and Jerry's has everything but the.

• 51:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 06

  That's a really good one.

• 51:15Speaker 05

  So good.

• 51:15Speaker 06

  That's for the girlies who can't make up their mind, right? Like that's for the divas who are like, I want a little bit of everything. I'm in chocolate chip because I, very cleansing.

• 51:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 51:23Speaker 06

  Very light.

• 51:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It is.

• 51:24Speaker 06

  It's elevating.

• 51:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 51:26Speaker 06

  It's like the elevated choice for the modern woman.

• 51:28Georgia Hardstark?

  The same with like the York peppermint patty where it's like, this isn't a chocolate bar.

• 51:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:33Speaker 05

  Those are my favorite. That's my favorite peppermint patty.

• 51:36Speaker 06

  They're kind of fluffy because those are egg whites in there.

• 51:37Speaker 05

  Really?

• 51:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:39Karen Kilgariff?

  It's protein?

• 51:39Speaker 06

  No, it's not vegan. So.

• 51:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So be warned.

• 51:42Speaker 06

  I came here today, I was like, I was in, I have a full leather jacket, I have a big leather back. And I was like, I hope no one had exactly right as big. I'm so sorry.

• 51:50Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a couple of them.

• 51:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sure there are. Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 06

  I hope they're not. And you know what? I can handle it. I'm okay. You know, I've been through worse.

• 51:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure. You passed the bar. You're still part of his family.

• 51:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, as long, was it really just a big fur, a big bear skin fur?

• 52:02Speaker 06

  Melissa loves a vintage fur. We talk a lot about vintage fur on our show.

• 52:06Speaker 05

  Right. I think it is. I mean, and maybe I'm just sort of like trying to, um, justify it, justify what I'm doing, but I feel like it's already dead, right? And, and I didn't do it.

• 52:18Speaker 06

  And it was, it was a minute ago. It wasn't like last season.

• 52:21Speaker 05

  The first fur coat that I got, I inherited from an aunt of mine. And I will say that, um, I remember when she got it. And for her, I feel like it was a moment where she felt she had arrived.

• 52:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 05

  Like it was like a big deal. I feel like in the eighties, right? When I was growing up, a woman with a fur coat was a woman who had arrived, right?

• 52:40Karen Kilgariff?

  That is simple.

• 52:41Speaker 05

  Yes. So, and she passed away and she didn't have any children. And the rest of my cousins all lived in sort of tropical places. So I was like, so it was either I take it or it ends up in a landfill somewhere, right? And I also, because I love estate sales so much, there was this woman who, she wasn't publishing. She had died. She had the best clothes. In the world.

• 53:02Speaker 06

  People in publishing have fears.

• 53:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. I racked up and I bought her fur coat and I love it so much.

• 53:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 53:10Speaker 05

  But I get it that people feel.

• 53:11Speaker 06

  Melissa called me from the estate sale.

• 53:13Speaker 05

  I did.

• 53:13Speaker 06

  And I'm a friend people call when they're like about to maybe do something unethical. They're like, I just kind of want to like run the gut check past you because my ethics are a little gray, I would say, you know? I do represent people accused of violent crimes sometimes.

• 53:27Speaker 05

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 53:28Speaker 06

  I do a lot of work with immigration defense, but sometimes there are like a lot of crimes attached to it. I was just telling the two of you before we started rolling about my client who has, was maybe or maybe allegedly was caught with a bunch of heroin at the border. So we've, a lot of things, I'm sort of the ethical gray area friend, which is like a really fun person. And Melissa did call me and ask me, she did call me as if she.

• 53:51Speaker 05

  I did.

• 53:52Speaker 06

  There was some sort of painless crime committed.

• 53:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, was it okay?

• 53:55Speaker 06

  And I was like, yeah, do it.

• 53:57Speaker 05

  Oh my.

• 53:57Speaker 06

  It's already.

• 53:58Speaker 05

  It already exists.

• 53:59Speaker 06

  My Ayah died and my mom donated her fur to the animal shelter.

• 54:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God, what? It sounds like a threat.

• 54:06Speaker 06

  It was like.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  But you know what, though? I, I had, so a while ago, when I got this coat, I posted it and I was just like, what do you, what do people think I should do? And a lot of people said that I should donate it to an animal shelter.

• 54:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, for the puppies to like snuggle with when they're like, if they don't have their.

• 54:22Speaker 05

  But I was like, yeah, I don't know. Like, it felt weird, right? It's almost like giving chicken to a chicken. Like, it felt wrong.

• 54:30Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a, there's a butcher shop in New York. I lived there very quickly.

• 54:34Speaker 06

  Karen, I'm so worried where this is.

• 54:37Karen Kilgariff?

  And the picture outside is a little pig with a chef and with a knife.

• 54:41Speaker 06

  Yes, it said, yeah.

• 54:41Karen Kilgariff?

  And I took pictures like.

• 54:42Speaker 06

  Cannibalistic.

• 54:43Karen Kilgariff?

  The first week I lived there, I was like, what the fuck is going on?

• 54:46Speaker 06

  Yes, yeah, what is that?

• 54:48Karen Kilgariff?

  He's just like, come get our sausages.

• 54:50Speaker 06

  And it's like, oh, no. Did you know him?

• 54:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, sweetie pie.

• 54:54Georgia Hardstark?

  The hot dog putting ketchup and mustard on himself?

• 54:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 54:57Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you?

• 54:57Speaker 06

  That is self harm.

• 54:58Speaker 05

  No, no, no.

• 54:59Speaker 06

  That is self harm.

• 55:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That is self loathing. That is self loathing at its best.

• 55:03Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. We're, we're excited. We're going to talk about fat discrimination on the next episode. I'm so excited because I was a former fat kid and I was treated viciously growing up. And, you know, whatever your like body journey is, is your own journey and.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  And I had weight loss surgery about 11 years ago now. And I will tell you what's been really interesting about that journey is. The world is not kind to fat people.

• 55:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Not at all.

• 55:28Speaker 05

  And I can't tell you, I could feel the difference in the way that I was treated even by strangers.

• 55:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:37Speaker 05

  People would look you in the, people would look me in the eye now.

• 55:39Speaker 06

  Smile on the street.

• 55:40Speaker 05

  Sort of kinder to me. The one thing I, I will say that I wish was that there is a body positivity movement right now that I wish that I would have been part of because I think a part of what was wrong with me is that there was self-loathing.

• 55:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 55:57Speaker 05

  Right? And really feeling like I sort of didn't deserve to be treated better.

• 56:01Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 56:02Speaker 05

  Which I feel bad for the person who I was for that reason, right?

• 56:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But it is amazing to see especially young women these days not having any of it.

• 56:11Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 56:12Speaker 06

  It's so great.

• 56:13Speaker 05

  I love that for them so much and I, and I'm, I'm sorry that I missed out on that moment. Because when I was like 17 years old or 20 years old or 30 years old, I needed it then.

• 56:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 56:26Speaker 05

  You know?

• 56:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And it felt like it would never change. I mean, that was the kind of thing where it's like, we lived in a very Vogue magazine world. Very singular, the monoculture.

• 56:33Speaker 05

  Snackwell cookies, right? Diet culture was so fucked up.

• 56:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So huge that it's like, we would never have that conversation about shells and cheese versus mac and cheese because what a pig, what are you saying?

• 56:43Speaker 06

  Yes, exactly.

• 56:44Karen Kilgariff?

  That whole culture, and I think that's the upside of social media. Where it's like, everyone got on there and then a bunch of people were like, hey, how about you don't say that? Yeah. How about, you know what I mean? How about you adjust that position and what you think?

• 56:56Speaker 06

  Totally. And we're going to talk about like discrimination lawsuits around fat people and how they're treated and like things that have been litigated. So I think it'll be an interesting kind of like entree into that, but we always end up talking about like our personal experiences with these things because it's so, I don't know.

• 57:11Speaker 05

  It's amazing. It hits home.

• 57:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 06

  For a lot of people, I think.

• 57:15Karen Kilgariff?

  For a lot, for sure.

• 57:16Speaker 06

  Even if you didn't like live that experience, you know someone or you had a family member who was always treated differently or you always heard like someone's side remark after.

• 57:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. What I love about this is like the legal side of things. I feel like I'm not part of that and I'm not there, like I can't be part of that conversation because I don't know legal terms at all, but you got.

• 57:38Speaker 06

  But I love that you guys make it. Pull up the chat GPT. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, you may, I mean, this conversation is very similar to the podcast in that you've got your central thing, you go there, but you also like friends, just kind of chat, talk through things, discover things.

• 57:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, we were, we were talking about like looted art and like stolen art and then the Louvre robbery happened and we were like. Somebody got arrested, did you see that? Yeah, so we're, I mean, we're recording every week, it'll be a very topical episode. I think we record a couple, it comes out a couple of days after, so we will be covering headlines like what's really happening. And I'll dive into like the law behind it, but like, I'm not a Supreme Court litigator. Like I am, I am at the local courthouse with your drug dealer, with the person who was drinking and driving, like I am there with like the local public defenders and the local prosecutors. This is not going to be like an esoteric legal podcast where we're pontificating on like the latest Supreme Court.

• 58:35Speaker 05

  No, but I mean, I think the point is to sort of like give some information and also make people laugh and make people sort of recognize, be like, oh, you know what? I'm going to think about that and maybe I've heard this thing from Melissa and Michael's podcast and I'm going to look and do a deeper dive.

• 58:50Speaker 06

  Contextualize it too, right? Like what do you do if you get pulled over? Okay, we're going to do this like twice, once for white people and once for black people. The things that happen to the two of us when we get pulled over are very different.

• 59:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, very different.

• 59:02Speaker 06

  Yeah. And I've started giving legal advice in my practice to migrants based off of their appearance, based off how brown they may appear, which is, it's always kind of been like that. I mean, criminal defense attorneys and immigration attorneys, we've always had to sort of think about like, okay, this client is from Sweden, it's going to be a little bit different, maybe we do this thing a little bit differently or do something over here. But now it is quite explicit. It was always like inferred and I think especially defense attorneys were always acutely aware of like racial injustice in the justice system. But now it is so explicit, the quiet part's being said out loud with your full chest. So it's been a really interesting time to start a podcast.

• 59:46Speaker 06

  Because the first episode, I was like. What the fuck are we gonna cover?

• 59:51Speaker 05

  I mean, there's so many things, right?

• 59:52Speaker 06

  Forty-five minutes or so. We've got too many things to talk about.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, there's so many things. So much.

• 59:57Speaker 06

  But we'll be, we'll be in the studio every week talking about it. And I always say I'm flying around New York City on my broomstick. I bike everywhere. I bike up and down Second Avenue to the courthouse. And then I come after, after court wraps at like five o'clock, I fly up on my bike on, with a helmet.

• 1:00:12Speaker 05

  He does wear a helmet.

• 1:00:13Speaker 06

  I do.

• 1:00:14Speaker 05

  Safety first.

• 1:00:15Speaker 06

  My dad taught me that. And I fly up to the studio after trial wraps.

• 1:00:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Let's do, should we do one more pick aside?

• 1:00:24Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. And then we'll do a pick aside for them.

• 1:00:29Speaker 05

  But it'll be all constitutional law.

• 1:00:33Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't know. We told you we didn't know. I was sweating. Okay, should I do one?

• 1:00:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. This is all my disagreement. Do you shower after having a bath? Hello, MFM family. Love you all. Recently, I had a disagreement with my fiance. At the time, I was so sure I was in the right that I pulled my friends and family to find out. It was more of a divisive, divisive, divisive topic than I had.

• 1:00:54Speaker 06

  I don't know if it's divisive or divisive, because I said one on TikTok and everyone fucking came for me. They were like, this disgusting man doesn't know how to pronounce it. They came for me.

• 1:01:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, they know I can't.

• 1:01:07Speaker 06

  People just started calling my phone after that.

• 1:01:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, just for that word.

• 1:01:11Speaker 06

  It could be that or the Swifties. I'm not sure.

• 1:01:13Speaker 05

  They're very powerful.

• 1:01:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so easily triggered. Everyone's divisive about it.

• 1:01:18Speaker 06

  I don't know. I still don't know.

• 1:01:20Speaker 05

  Data, data.

• 1:01:21Speaker 06

  I'm so mad I didn't know which one it was.

• 1:01:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna do both and piss everyone off.

• 1:01:24Speaker 06

  Add the slash.

• 1:01:25Georgia Hardstark?

  When you have a bath, do you shower afterwards? My view is that you do all that relaxing, that showering afterwards would just undo the relaxing. The bath also cleans you. That's how people have been cleaning themselves for centuries. My fiance says that you need to wash off the suds if, for example, it was a bubble bath. What other people have said is that, that you are lying in your own dirt.

• 1:01:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what my husband says.

• 1:01:47Speaker 06

  That's what I think. That's what I think too. That's what I think.

• 1:01:49Georgia Hardstark?

  What I have realized in my information gathering is that most people who are British, where we live and where my family is, agree with me, but my fiance, who is Polish and a lot of other my friends who are from other countries, they have another opinion. I haven't asked any Americans yet.

• 1:02:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:02:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Please help solve the disagreement. Thank you, Lottie and

• 1:02:06Speaker 06

  I'm sorry, we're not taking any advice from England on like hygiene. I'm sorry to any British divas. Or spices. I'm sorry. We, all of us around the table have fierce teeth. We're looking

• 1:02:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:02:17Speaker 06

  We're not going to England for any, how we're gonna, I've been there. I've lived there. It is, why are, first of all, in England, the two faucets, hot and cold, about a mile apart on the fucking sink. Why? I'm getting, I'm changing time zones to get warm water. This is absurd. Yeah, the war is over, guys. Get it together. How did they run the world for 300 years? Well. This was, that was absolutely By force. Yes, yeah. But like, anyway, so that, that was the first thing I heard. And the second thing I heard was, for centuries, people have been bathing like this. I, I don't think it's been documented that they were bathing particularly well. No, they used to share the bath water. Yes. You get in and out. Yes, yeah. So, ew.

• 1:02:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  Plain and simple.

• 1:03:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do the most updated version.

• 1:03:04Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:03:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead of looking back to our ancestors.

• 1:03:07Georgia Hardstark?

  What would they have wanted to do? Probably get in the fucking shower.

• 1:03:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I wish I could get this film off me.

• 1:03:13Speaker 06

  We are all post bath showers.

• 1:03:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm 100% not.

• 1:03:16Speaker 06

  You are not?

• 1:03:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I am 100% not.

• 1:03:17Speaker 06

  So after a bath, you just get out?

• 1:03:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I just cleaned myself.

• 1:03:22Speaker 06

  But you've been, no.

• 1:03:23Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm not dirty though. Like, when I married my husband and he was like, what are you, and I was like, why are you getting in the shower? Like, what a fucking wake up call after this relaxing thing. I mean, I'm not that dirty to begin with.

• 1:03:34Speaker 06

  To begin with, you're taking a bath, it's like a

• 1:03:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanted to tell you.

• 1:03:37Speaker 06

  Oh, no.

• 1:03:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 1:03:40Karen Kilgariff?

  But judges always just have a little bathtub ring right there. Just a little ring.

• 1:03:46Speaker 05

  Are you, are we thinking that the bath is for cleaning or relaxing?

• 1:03:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Both. I think both.

• 1:03:52Speaker 06

  Okay. I think that sometimes the bath bombs are like so strongly scented. I worked at Lush in 2009.

• 1:03:59Speaker 05

  Oh god, no.

• 1:04:00Speaker 06

  As a holiday hire.

• 1:04:01Speaker 05

  I love it.

• 1:04:02Speaker 06

  Before law school, I had to make money while I was studying for the LSATs. I had four jobs and that was one of them.

• 1:04:06Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:04:07Speaker 06

  And my laundry smelled fucking wicked. After the end of the day, you, those bath bombs smell crazy.

• 1:04:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's asking for a UTI, not to fucking rinse off.

• 1:04:16Speaker 05

  100 for sure, yes. But as someone with very thick hair, I can't wash my hair in a bathtub.

• 1:04:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 1:04:23Speaker 05

  So, so your hair is...

• 1:04:25Speaker 06

  This is like, yeah, from the neck down.

• 1:04:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe like a face mask.

• 1:04:28Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:04:29Speaker 06

  Oh, that's nice.

• 1:04:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Some magnesium salts.

• 1:04:31Speaker 06

  A magnesium salt. Magnesium dries my skin out a little bit. Yeah, but then I have to...

• 1:04:35Georgia Hardstark?

  But then you add, so you add in something else, like...

• 1:04:37Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Speaker 05

  I definitely feel like the bath, the bath for me is relaxing, not cleansing.

• 1:04:44Speaker 06

  But showers aren't, don't wake me up. Showers, I'm like still going to sleep.

• 1:04:47Georgia Hardstark?

  The shower and the bathtub have to be separate. I will...

• 1:04:50Speaker 06

  Oh, you won't do a shower tub? Okay, Ms. Diva's never lived in New York. Oh my god, always take the baths in the sink.

• 1:04:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Same, same. I mean, I've lived, yeah, I've lived in apartments and I haven't taken, didn't take baths for two years.

• 1:05:01Speaker 06

  My neighbor fell in the tub. This is like, oh my god.

• 1:05:03Speaker 05

  Oh, I remember that.

• 1:05:04Speaker 06

  And I think I called you.

• 1:05:05Speaker 05

  Yes, you did.

• 1:05:06Speaker 06

  Because why would I call my husband?

• 1:05:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no.

• 1:05:08Speaker 06

  I called Melissa. And this is, these are the friends we are. When your cat died, you called me.

• 1:05:12Speaker 05

  Oh, you did.

• 1:05:13Speaker 06

  Not her husband, Andre. Like, this is how, this is how emotionally dependent we are.

• 1:05:18Speaker 05

  How best friendships really work.

• 1:05:19Speaker 06

  Um, they were like, can you come help deadlift this 90-year-old man out of the tub? My neighbor came and got me. And I'm like, you know, I'm there. I'm like, I'm ready. And I go down, hard cut to me, trying to deadlift this man out of the tub. And I was like,

• 1:05:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, was he alive?

• 1:05:36Speaker 06

  I was like, he needs medical assistance. So we have to call it. They didn't want him to go to a hospital. They were like, he might get an infection.

• 1:05:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:05:43Speaker 06

  And I was like, this is, this is beyond my capabilities. At this point, this is not.

• 1:05:48Karen Kilgariff?

  As a neighbor.

• 1:05:48Speaker 06

  This is like, yeah.

• 1:05:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:05:50Speaker 06

  And I went back, forty minutes go by, the police came. I'm talking to the police. We're doing a translator situation. I go back upstairs. My husband's still watching TV. He's like, where were you? I was like, sorry, triage.

• 1:06:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Checked out.

• 1:06:06Speaker 06

  What, where, where were you?

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Hope you enjoyed Dancing with the Stars. Watching TV.

• 1:06:11Speaker 06

  The cha-cha slide on Dancing with the Stars. What the, what a fuck my drag. I'm downstairs, covered in blood.

• 1:06:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, but also, like, if you helped him and he got hurt from it, he could sue you.

• 1:06:21Speaker 06

  Oh, I'm sure, yeah. And that was my, my thought as a naked octogenarian was laying over my shoulder, bleeding on me. I was like, this is a head trauma situation? This is really something that I, we need medical assistance.

• 1:06:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It's beyond, yeah. You gotta know when it's beyond your, your powers.

• 1:06:40Speaker 06

  Anyway, we moved, and I don't talk to my neighbors anymore. Let me tell you, I'm serious. I don't talk to, and I've lived there for years in my new apartment. And people come, they see me come off the elevator and it's, they sit down, headphones in.

• 1:06:53Karen Kilgariff?

  They wanna talk to you so bad, because they're like, I saw you in TikTok today. He's my neighbor, he's my neighbor. My TikTok neighbor.

• 1:06:59Speaker 06

  I don't wanna be that guy who has to come pick your grandpa up out of the tub. I can't do it.

• 1:07:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You can't. That's too much. I feel like this could go on forever. I know, I have so many questions. I don't wanna stop it, but I think we have to. But we just need to tell you guys, we are so thrilled that you are on this network with us. It's, we're so thrilled to have your voices, to be able to hear what you have to say, and to help guide in whatever way you guys do, through friendship, through law, through life experience, whatever it is, we're just thrilled. So thank you so much. Thank you for having us. This is a wonderful opportunity. We're super excited. I can't wait to see what happens next.

• 1:07:35Speaker 06

  Yes, we're gonna have a blast. The show premieres on November thirteenth.

• 1:07:39Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, we have all that info.

• 1:07:40Speaker 06

  And we're gonna have so much fun. Get ready to laugh.

• 1:07:44Georgia Hardstark?

  People didn't need to call in their questions.

• 1:07:45Speaker 06

  Oh, y'all need to send in those questions. Because people are calling me just because I got doxxed. They're just calling myself.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  You really did? I thought you were joking about that.

• 1:07:54Speaker 06

  Oh, no, yeah.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  They doxed you.

• 1:07:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I get doxxed all the time.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:07:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:07:58Speaker 06

  People throw my-

• 1:07:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It's actually not fine, but okay. But it happens all the time. Please don't do it.

• 1:08:02Speaker 06

  If I say, "Don't do it," they'll just do it harder. So it's like, it's fine. But please send in your questions because we really are answering them.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, we are answering them. And like I say to all the time to everybody, while Michael is a lawyer, he is not your lawyer. But we really want you to write in and also keep your personal information personal.

• 1:08:22Speaker 06

  Oh, my God.

• 1:08:22Speaker 02

  Because people are out here giving us their social security numbers.

• 1:08:24Speaker 06

  They're really, they're like, okay, here's my credit card number. Please read it on the air. It's like people are sending the-

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  Yes, my name is John Smith and I live at 123 Bain Street.

• 1:08:34Speaker 06

  Don't tell anyone where I'm located, but here's a, here, I'm gonna drop a pin.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh. And I think that you also, because we get a lot of letters at the very bottom, they'll say, "Keep me anonymous." Put that at the top. Put it at the top. Anonymous.

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  And do it yourself.

• 1:08:47Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  DIY.

• 1:08:48Speaker 06

  DIY, yeah.

• 1:08:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, thank you guys so much for being here.

• 1:08:51Speaker 06

  Thank you for having us.

• 1:08:51Georgia Hardstark?

  The newest podcast on Exactly Right Network. Brief Recession debuts November 13th, 2025. Listen to new episodes out every Thursday on your podcast app and watch Brief Recession on the Exactly Right YouTube channel. Go to youtube.com/ExactlyRightMedia.

• 1:09:07Speaker 02

  You can watch it and then you can subscribe to Brief Recession on YouTube or you can listen and subscribe and give it a five-star review wherever you get your podcasts. And please do that.

• 1:09:17Speaker 06

  Yay, thank you.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  Thanks, you guys.

• 1:09:19Georgia Hardstark?

  This is so great.

• 1:09:20Speaker 06

  Thank you, Diva.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  Yay. Now, we all do ketamine together.

• 1:09:25Speaker 06

  Oh, man. Cut the camera, cut the camera.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin. Email your hometowns to [email protected]. Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

• 1:10:12Speaker 00

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• 1:11:12Speaker 02

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• 1:11:56Speaker 02

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