Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 495 - Colorado Favorites About this episode On this Colorado quilt episode, we revisit Karen and Georgia's coverage of "Love Has Won" cult leader Amy Carlson from December 23, 2021 and the cold case murders of Barbara Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee from September 16, 2021.
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Transcript 11,543 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Karen Kilgariff? This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 01 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
0:42 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.
0:55 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Carney Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
1:02 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.
1:04 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
1:09 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:10 Speaker 03 Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit firefox.com.
1:56 Georgia Hardstark? Hello.
1:58 Karen Kilgariff? And welcome.
1:59 Georgia Hardstark? To My Favorite Murder.
2:01 Karen Kilgariff? So this is very exciting for us. When you hear this, we're about to do our first live show after six years. We'll be doing two of them in Denver.
2:12 Georgia Hardstark? I can feel my nerves from the future and Denver.
2:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
2:17 Georgia Hardstark? And so because of that, we're bringing you a quilt episode where we combine two of our favorite Colorado stories. First up, Karen is covering the twisted cult of Love Has Won and its leader, Amy Carlson.
2:29 Karen Kilgariff? And then Georgia will be telling you the story of the cold case murders of Barbara Overholzer and Annette Schnie.
2:36 Georgia Hardstark? So The Denver Show is already sold out, but limited tickets are available in some other cities. So go to myfavoritemurder.com/live to get yours.
2:44 Karen Kilgariff? And now please enjoy this Colorado quilt episode.
2:47 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
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3:34 Karen Kilgariff? off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
3:40 Georgia Hardstark? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.
3:43 Karen Kilgariff? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.
3:53 Georgia Hardstark? If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.
4:04 Karen Kilgariff? Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.
4:08 Georgia Hardstark? Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.
4:12 Karen Kilgariff? I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.
4:28 Georgia Hardstark? And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?
4:30 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you call my feet stinky?
4:33 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness, you can feel fine. Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.
4:38 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
4:39 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.
4:44 Karen Kilgariff? Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception, his mom.
4:52 Georgia Hardstark? To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.
4:57 Karen Kilgariff? As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.
5:05 Georgia Hardstark? Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house?
5:08 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevala, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
5:16 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series Phony.
5:18 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
5:23 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
5:24 Speaker 03 Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.
5:56 Karen Kilgariff? So this is something that cropped up and I remember it from basically kind of mid-quarantine before any kind of vaccination had been developed, when we were all still washing our hands for 30 seconds while singing the theme to Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood or whatever, like just past the point where we were wiping down cereal boxes, but still stuck in our houses and very unsure as to what was going on. So this was the kind of story that when it popped up, it was like, ew, what's that about? And it just kind of like hit my radar, essentially. So this is the story of the death of Amy Carlson and the Love Has Won cult. So there's an amazing article by Virginia Pelly. I hope I'm pronouncing that right.
6:39 Karen Kilgariff? Virginia in the magazine Marie Claire called Love Has Lost. Got a lot of information about that because it was very comprehensive.
6:47 Georgia Hardstark? Cool.
6:47 Karen Kilgariff? Also, there's a article in the Washington Post by Marissa Aiti. There's an episode of Dr. Phil that actually has the whole family of Amy Carlson on it. A Vice documentary called False Gods: Cult Leader, Abuser, or Goddess? Meet Mother God. A BBC News article by Joshua Nevett. A Denver Post article by Noel Phillips. There's obviously a Wikipedia article, a People Magazine article by Jeff Truesdale, and a Honolulu Star Advisor article by the Star Advisor staff. For a second, I thought it was a woman named Star Advisor. It's just like way to go. And it's funny because this is such a recent story.
7:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
7:30 Karen Kilgariff? There's been-
7:30 Georgia Hardstark? So far, it doesn't ring bells.
7:32 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. So in September of 2020, so about six months into quarantine, there's a news story out of Kauai, one of my favorite Hawaiian islands-
7:42 Georgia Hardstark? Beautiful.
7:43 Karen Kilgariff? -that popped up about a group of roughly 11 people calling themselves Love Has Won, who tried to relocate to the island from Colorado in August of 2020. So aside from breaking the state's quarantine protocols, the group, who many believe to be a cult, had been co-opting native religious practices and generally pissing everyone off in the island. Because many of us know who like to go to Hawaii and like to visit there, it's like going to a very small town. And, you know, it's, white people are very invasive over there. They're tourists and they're oftentimes can be very disrespectful.
8:23 Karen Kilgariff? So ingratiating yourself into the culture over there is a very important part of visiting those islands. Because it's about respecting the reason you love it there so much is because of the Hawaiian people and the native culture. And so a big group of people coming over there and basically ripping them off and- Uh, you know.
8:45 Georgia Hardstark? Disrespecting.
8:46 Karen Kilgariff? Basically, yeah, just being kind of a bunch of assholes. It, of course, didn't sit well. People were immedi- and also they had, they already knew, because this was the second cult that had come to Kauai during the quarantine. So this was actually a kind of a problem.
9:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
9:01 Karen Kilgariff? Um, for the people there, the locals.
9:05 Georgia Hardstark? Especially like the fact that it's, they're disrespecting them and, and possibly bringing COVID over. It's like.
9:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, it's unsafe. It's really shitty.
9:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
9:16 Karen Kilgariff? Disrespectful and it's like, go fuck yourself. So.
9:18 Georgia Hardstark? Seriously.
9:18 Karen Kilgariff? There was vandalism, there was several small fires. It was just a huge problem almost from the get go. And so for the safety of the residents of Kauai, the police end up escorting this group of people back to the airport on September 4th. And they end up flying back home to Colorado. So at the time, this story was just kind of a blip in an already very overwhelming news cycle.
9:40 Georgia Hardstark? Mm hmm.
9:41 Karen Kilgariff? Until about seven months later, on the night of Wednesday, April 28th, 2021, when 43 year old Miguel Lamboy arrives at the Salida Police Station near the tiny hundred person mountain town of Moffett, Colorado in Sawatch County. So basically Lamboy is there to report that a group of people have brought a dead body into his home.
10:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
10:06 Karen Kilgariff? He explains, it's the corpse of Amy Carlson, the leader of a local religious group, Love Has Won. And he, they got there the day before and they needed a place to stay. Lamboy has also, is a member of this religious group.
10:21 Georgia Hardstark? Uh huh.
10:21 Karen Kilgariff? Quote unquote. Um, and he didn't realize they had this body until the next day. And so there's, there are seven people, I believe, in the group. And so when he does realize this dead body is in his house, he, he takes his two year old son and he goes to leave and they say, you can leave, but the boy has to stay here. And that's when he decided it's time to go to the police. So the police are, the local police are well aware of this group. Many locals have claimed it's a cult and the Sawatch County Sheriff's Department was quoted as saying, quote, "They've received many complaints from families saying that the group is brainwashing people and stealing their money." And that from all over the country, not just in the area.
11:06 Karen Kilgariff? So according to Miguel Lamboy, um, this group drove from California to Colorado with Carlson's dead body in the back of their SUV.
11:15 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
11:16 Karen Kilgariff? And then they, they landed at his house because they needed a place to stay. So the police are granted a search warrant for Lamboy's house, which they execute at around 11:50 that night. And they find this group of seven people, as well as the dead body, as Lamboy had described to them. But the body is in even more disturbing state than they had imagined. In the back bedroom, police discover what appears to be a mummified corpse with gray skin wrapped in a sleeping bag lying on a bed. Her teeth are showing through her lips, her eyes are missing, and her eye sockets are painted with glittery makeup.
11:54 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
11:56 Karen Kilgariff? The whole body is wrapped in Christmas lights.
11:58 Georgia Hardstark? What?
11:59 Karen Kilgariff? And a shrine has been, uh, she's, she's basically surrounded by a shrine of trinkets and different lights.
12:06 Georgia Hardstark? How do seven people, like, agree that this is, like, seven people? That's so many. I mean, that's what cults do, but...
12:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. I mean, it's the, this is, uh, this is a long, uh, this has been a long process to getting to this point, basically. So, um, all seven adults are arrested and charged with abuse of a corpse. And because, uh, one woman who's in this group, her name's Karen Raymond, her 13-year-old daughter, um, is with the group and Lamboy's two-year-old son are in the house. The group is also charged with two counts of child abuse. Even though both children were found asleep and safe, it's just child abuse that they would even be in that scenario. So Raymond's daughter's taken into social services custody after the mom's arrest.
12:56 Karen Kilgariff? Lamboy's two-year-old son is returned to him after the, um, search of the house is finished.
13:02 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
13:02 Karen Kilgariff? So when the coroner inspects the body, it's so decomposed that fingerprints can't be taken.
13:07 Georgia Hardstark? What?
13:08 Karen Kilgariff? Um, and it leads him to believe that Amy Carlson must have been dead for at least a month, if not longer. Yeah.
13:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, ch-
13:15 Karen Kilgariff? In fact, the body so decomposed, it takes him three months to confirm that this is indeed the body of forty five year old Amy Carlson. So over the weekend, following the raid, other members of the Love Has Won group post a video on their Facebook page about their leader's death, saying that she has ascended to the fifth dimension. So this video is later deleted, but Carlson's devoted followers still hold this belief. And in fact, the idea of Amy's ascension had become the main tenet of the group. Amy is called Mother God in this group, and she claimed to already have been reincarnated 500 times.
13:57 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa.
13:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
13:59 Georgia Hardstark? That sounds exhausting.
14:00 Karen Kilgariff? She, well, and more so when you realize that she has already been Jesus, Joan of Arc, and Marilyn Monroe, right? As it's the old joke, no one ever is reincarnated as just the person down the street. It's always Joan of Arc. And on her next ascension, she was telling believers in these video streams that she was making, that the, that starships were going to come and take her away, and that when she ascended, her followers would finally learn this truth, that a powerful quote unquote cabal had been keeping from the people of Earth in every incarnation that she had. So right when she was about to, that right
14:44 Karen Kilgariff? when the people of Earth are about to learn like the ultimate truth.
14:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
14:48 Karen Kilgariff? The cabal comes in, kills her, and keeps the truth from coming out.
14:52 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
14:53 Karen Kilgariff? That's basically her theory.
14:55 Georgia Hardstark? What a bummer.
14:56 Karen Kilgariff? Right? It's really unfortunate, and kind of, kind of tidy, you know?
15:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
15:02 Karen Kilgariff? It's all just this one, this is the reason we're all suffering. It's just this one cabal of like, rich people. It's the same as you always hear. It's like, the cabal is super rich people, Hollywood people.
15:14 Georgia Hardstark? Uh huh.
15:15 Karen Kilgariff? And, you know, and then just like villains from around the world. Any nonbelievers that don't follow Mother God will be sent to live on the quote, central galactic sun.
15:25 Georgia Hardstark? Uh huh.
15:25 Karen Kilgariff? Or be turned into rocks. So there's a former member named Ash McCoy, who said that the shrine that the police found around the body wasn't new. They didn't put that there when the body got there. It had actually been made long before Amy Carlson's death, with the idea that when she did finally ascend in this lifetime, her followers would want a place where they could come and commemorate her life and basically treat it like a museum exhibit. So they had been preparing for her
15:55 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
15:55 Karen Kilgariff? quote unquote, ascension for years.
15:57 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
15:58 Karen Kilgariff? The members of the Love is One cult are convinced their leader, Mother God, will go down in history as the greatest being who has ever lived.
16:05 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
16:06 Karen Kilgariff? Which is just, if you think about it, all of this is just a perfect 2021 vibe. Just like, super intense, super apocalyptic. Everything is like, everything is conspiracy.
16:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:19 Karen Kilgariff? It's simplistic and it's kind of like, do what I say.
16:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:24 Karen Kilgariff? Or the cabal will get you.
16:26 Georgia Hardstark? It's because we're living in an unprecedented time, so anything is possible. And people just want to believe something.
16:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, people are disenfranchised, they're scared, they're alone. A lot of people are sick or feel like they can't, they're not healthy. And they're looking for answers online.
16:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
16:44 Karen Kilgariff? And so as many, as many WebMDs and like websites that are, you know, standardly reliable.
16:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:52 Karen Kilgariff? There are just as many
16:53 Georgia Hardstark? Right, right.
16:54 Karen Kilgariff? websites that start out as kind of new age quote unquote holistic medicine, alternative practices.
16:59 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
17:00 Karen Kilgariff? And that, and that's how this started.
17:02 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
17:02 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so we'll talk about Amy Carlson's early life.
17:05 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
17:06 Karen Kilgariff? She was born on November 30th, 1975 and grows up in Dallas, Texas, with her two sisters, Chelsea and Tara. Their parents divorced when Amy's young. She lives with her dad at first, but then she goes back to live with her mom and her new stepdad. She's a popular straight A student with a beautiful singing voice and her sisters say she was always really sweet and kind. But as she gets older, she starts dating a lot of controlling or abusive men. By the time she's in her early twenties, she's basically on her Third marriage.
17:38 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my gosh.
17:39 Karen Kilgariff? And she has a child with each husband, so she has a daughter and two sons. But then, after her third marriage, she basically starts to settle down. She gets a manager job at the local McDonald's. And her family and friends, people on the outside, believe that she's happy.
17:56 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
17:57 Karen Kilgariff? But shortly after her third child is born, there's a noticeable change in her personality. Um, she begins to grow distant. Her mom Linda admits, although Amy has never really been maternal, but now she's basically become a neglectful mother.
18:11 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
18:12 Karen Kilgariff? And she doesn't, she disengages from her children's lives and she's spending all her time online looking at bizarre, new agey kind of websites. And this is when her, basically her worldview begins to change.
18:25 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
18:25 Karen Kilgariff? Then Amy starts meeting up with the people that are also on these websites, meeting them in real life. And soon she's constantly talking about these things, like about ascension, about alternative medicine, about starships, all kinds of, kind of nonsensical new age philosophy.
18:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
18:44 Karen Kilgariff? And then, when Amy's in her early thirties, she decides she, to leave her husband and her children, who are aged two, seven, and twelve.
18:51 Georgia Hardstark? Ah.
18:52 Karen Kilgariff? It's heartbreaking.
18:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
18:53 Karen Kilgariff? Heartbreaking. She moves out of state with an unidentified man that she had met on, online.
19:00 Georgia Hardstark? It reminds me so much so far of Heaven's Gate.
19:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
19:04 Georgia Hardstark? Of the, yeah.
19:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, of the idea of people that have always kind of been unhappy in some way.
19:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
19:10 Karen Kilgariff? That stumble upon a group that has all the answers.
19:13 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
19:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So she moves out of state, her family tries to contact her, she doesn't ever respond, she basically cuts herself off from her family completely. They're convinced Amy's new boyfriend has tricked her into joining a cult. But when she finally reemerges and they see her again years later, she's the one that's leaving the cult.
19:34 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, twist.
19:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So the man Amy ran off with called himself Father God and convinces Amy that she's Mother God. And he brings her to Crestone, Colorado, which is a remote area 200 miles south of Denver that is considered sacred by the native people. And because of that, it's attracted, it's almost like a Sedona type of town in Colorado. It's attracted spiritual seekers for decades. The town itself only has about 1,800 people, but it has over or around 24 spiritual centers.
20:08 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
20:08 Karen Kilgariff? With a full range of, there's like, there's Buddhist, there's Catholic, there's, it's, I mean, it's everything.
20:16 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
20:17 Karen Kilgariff? So after a couple of years, Father and Mother God split up, but Amy keeps the title, Mother God.
20:22 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, if they can't make it work.
20:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:24 Georgia Hardstark? Who can?
20:25 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, that's a real sign.
20:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
20:26 Karen Kilgariff? Relationships are so hard, the gods can't even get it right.
20:29 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
20:30 Karen Kilgariff? So she, of course, keeps on basically pursuing these interests. And then she starts releasing YouTube videos and Facebook live streams. And she is, claims to be the leader of a group called the Galactic Federation of Light. So it's not in any way associated with Star Trek. She preaches about her plan to save humanity. And in these videos, at first, she's just the voiceover and it's just kind of like images. But then, after a while, she's front and center, she's the leader, and she's got followers in the videos who were talking about Amy as if she is God.
21:07 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
21:08 Karen Kilgariff? So we've gone from this kind of like, oh, an alternative to Western medicine.
21:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
21:13 Karen Kilgariff? To I, I am God. Um, which is, it's pretty, that's a pretty steep incline.
21:19 Georgia Hardstark? Uh huh.
21:20 Karen Kilgariff? And then in 2018 is when they changed the name of the group to Love Has Won. So, Amy's followers believe that she's God in human form and a being with an elevated consciousness that's been continually reincarnating, uh, for the last 19 billion years.
21:35 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus.
21:36 Karen Kilgariff? Um, so that she can complete her mission, which is to save humanity by leading a chosen 144,000 people into the mystical fifth dimension. They claim that she's currently on her 534th incarnation. Um, and she also claims, very strangely, after Robin Williams dies in 2014, that she has a direct spiritual connection with him.
22:00 Georgia Hardstark? Leave him alone.
22:01 Karen Kilgariff? For real. She broadcasts herself channeling on these live streams. She claims that Donald Trump was her father in another lifetime.
22:09 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, I wouldn't brag about that.
22:11 Karen Kilgariff? But to the people who are starting to get into this kind of like this conspiracy, it's a conspiracy community.
22:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:18 Karen Kilgariff? So she's kind of using the buzzwords that attract people who are online in the first place because they're kind of like starting to be believers in these things.
22:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:27 Karen Kilgariff? And they're also, I've said this before, but it's my personal theory, these are people that didn't grow up with computers. They don't understand that websites can be made by anyone.
22:37 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
22:38 Karen Kilgariff? And they can say anything.
22:39 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, talk to Janet.
22:42 Karen Kilgariff? It's just how it is for people that it's like they're looking at, they're people who grew up with one newspaper.
22:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:48 Karen Kilgariff? And that newspaper was just telling you the truth. There was no reason to question it.
22:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:52 Karen Kilgariff? So now we're, we're in the world of the digital age of anyone can make any website. And suddenly everything is this kind of believable.
23:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
23:00 Karen Kilgariff? And the, and it's also about numbers. The more people believe it, the more believable it is.
23:07 Georgia Hardstark? And I definitely screamed at my mom the other day, what was the source? What was the source? That's some fucking bananas bat shit thing she said.
23:14 Karen Kilgariff? It was WWW. That's the source. Um, so a lot of her teachings end up dovetailing with QAnon conspiracy theories. And basically the entire foundation of Love is One draws from new age spirituality, Christianity, astrology, Scientology, numerology, and basically anything else that appeals to Amy and that appeals to kind of like quote unquote spiritual seekers. She claims to have lived in the magical ancient land of Lemuria. She claims the lost city of Atlantis is real, but sunk from an explosion that took place after a certain technology was stolen and that her and her followers must fight an everlasting war against the cabal.
23:59 Karen Kilgariff? And that's all the same, that's that's kind of same theme that comes up all the time. Is that it's people declaring this small group are the pure.
24:08 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
24:09 Karen Kilgariff? They're the noble, they're the, they're the, they're their heroes of the story. And that basically whoever they decide.
24:16 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
24:16 Karen Kilgariff? Hollywood, rich people, whoever, you know, believable.
24:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
24:21 Karen Kilgariff? Uh believable theories, but it's like, but that these people are then whatever they decide.
24:26 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
24:26 Karen Kilgariff? And that they're, they're trying to attack them, they're trying to kill them, they're trying to, they're trying.
24:31 Georgia Hardstark? To squash the truth.
24:33 Karen Kilgariff? The truth and keep the world in darkness.
24:36 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
24:36 Karen Kilgariff? Essentially. So there's anywhere from 12 to 20 followers who actually live with Amy, like in a commune.
24:42 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
24:42 Karen Kilgariff? Between Colorado, California, Oregon, sometimes Florida, they wind up. Basically, they come back to that area in Colorado on two pieces of land. One ranch house in Salida and then this mobile home in Moffett. These two places become the home base for the group. So essentially how it goes is every day at six in the morning, Amy and her followers. Begin about a three hour live stream.
25:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
25:11 Karen Kilgariff? And in the beginning, the videos are about energy, connecting with spirit. Essentially new age stuff.
25:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:19 Karen Kilgariff? That's like lots of people ascribe to. And that isn't in any way destructive.
25:25 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:25 Karen Kilgariff? Um, it's, then they start talking a lot about frequencies and about, you know, negative versus positive. It's that kind of thing. Then basically the videos devolve into these outlandish concepts about the cabal. And, you know, them being hunted and all of that. There's two young women in the group that serve as basically hosts at the top of the show. And their group names are Archia Hope and Archia Aurora. And they're like young, kind of beautiful women who like, it's just, it's good marketing.
25:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:59 Karen Kilgariff? Basically, they're hosting this and talking about the tenants of these beliefs. But they get into some stuff that's like incredibly fucked up.
26:07 Georgia Hardstark? Mm hmm.
26:07 Karen Kilgariff? They start. Talking about like basically the pros of Hitler.
26:12 Georgia Hardstark? Ah, I knew it. I knew. I just pointed at myself because I was like, they were like, they were anti this and that. I'm like, say Jews, like, come on.
26:19 Karen Kilgariff? Well, that's the thing is they they're basically kind of floating the idea of being Holocaust deniers. And then floating the idea of maybe that Hitler's intentions were better than, you know, it's all that shit.
26:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:33 Karen Kilgariff? And basically, they they preach Amy's god status, her plan to save humanity. And they start offering these things called spiritual surgeries. So that's like a virtual healing session with Amy. It costs eighty eight dollars. She does spiritual surgery on you and claims that she can cure everything from addiction to cancer. Saying that her words and her hands have strong healing powers. So this is where they get people who are sick. People who have who have gone to doctor after doctor of like a typical Western medicine and haven't been cured.
27:11 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
27:11 Karen Kilgariff? And or been told that they're it's all in their mind, or they've been treated poorly by traditional doctors.
27:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
27:18 Karen Kilgariff? And they're they're on here looking for other stuff. So in the beginning, that idea. And sometimes it really is just that mental thing of somebody going, I can spiritually surgically cure you over the internet. And just the idea of that there's a solution.
27:31 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
27:32 Karen Kilgariff? And it's eighty eight dollars is very alluring to people.
27:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
27:36 Karen Kilgariff? Then you then you're coming in with, and while we're here, maybe we'll talk about how the Holocaust isn't real. I mean, that's it's they're playing upon people who are already like at low points and weak points of their lives.
27:48 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
27:49 Karen Kilgariff? So as insane as that seems, Love Has One's Facebook group climbs to about twenty thousand members.
27:54 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
27:55 Karen Kilgariff? And their YouTube channel gains nearly ten thousand followers. And their their videos have like one point five million views.
28:03 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
28:04 Karen Kilgariff? So people are watching. We don't know how they're watching or what their what their approach is, but they it's being seen. Um, there's lots of fan engagement. Viewers communicate with each other in the comment sections. And Amy and her followers answer questions or give shout outs to people who are commenting in the live streams. Plus, of course, this is a crucial element of it, money is pouring into the group in the form of donations made out to either Love Has One or Mother's Joy. So throughout the duration of this group, Love Has Won, they see a rotating cast of Father Gods who partner up with Amy. But the most notable is the most recent, Jason Castillo. He joins Amy in mid 2018, when the group changes its name to Love Has Won.
28:49 Karen Kilgariff? It's uncertain how he and Amy have met, but what is certain is his criminal record. His rap sheet lists charges for drunk driving, breaking and entering, and child neglect. So after his arrival, things in the commune go from bad to worse. Members are only allowed to sleep when Mother God sleeps, so they're usually limited to maybe four or five hours a night. They're always forced to rise at 5:00 a.m. The live streaming starts at 6:00 a.m. every single day, and they usually last three hours. They're also not allowed to sit for very long.
29:22 Georgia Hardstark? No.
29:23 Karen Kilgariff? The whole thing is leading to exhaustion for everybody.
29:26 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
29:27 Karen Kilgariff? And here's the other one: they're underfed.
29:29 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
29:30 Karen Kilgariff? So Carlson claims that eating too much is a symptom of our rampant ego, which Amy claims stands for edging God out. They're only allowed to get small amounts of food that are donated from local food banks, and no snackings allowed. So they basically-
29:47 Georgia Hardstark? I'm out. I'm out on so many levels.
29:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I can't do any of it. I'm all about that ego. But this is, this is fucking by-the-book cult brainwashing practices. Exhaustion and starvation.
30:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:02 Karen Kilgariff? The members live on their, on the compound, rent-free, but they have to serve Mother God with whatever she needs. And they don't get paid for anything, and they don't get any of the donation money.
30:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:13 Karen Kilgariff? Most of the time, members wind up giving whatever money they have to Mother God. And as one former member named Taylor puts it, quote, "Everything is revolved around Amy."
30:23 Georgia Hardstark? Of course.
30:23 Karen Kilgariff? But she's not the gentle, compassionate leader that she claims to be. Even though drugs and alcohol are expressly forbidden in the group, she drinks to excess every day and openly on camera.
30:34 Georgia Hardstark? What?
30:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So this is a real, like, we're watching, this is, this really parallels the Synanon story.
30:41 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
30:41 Karen Kilgariff? Where the leader who starts out with these really lofty goals about helping people, it slowly slides into saving humanity, which slides into I am God.
30:51 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
30:52 Karen Kilgariff? Which goes right along with some kind of substance abuse.
30:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:56 Karen Kilgariff? So when Amy's sober, she puts on a warm, kind facade, but at night, she launches into drunken cursed filled tirades on the live streams.
31:04 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
31:05 Karen Kilgariff? And on one, she shouts into the camera, quote, "Spiritual ego whores die. If you're not connected to me, you're out."
31:12 Georgia Hardstark? Damn.
31:13 Karen Kilgariff? So it's turning.
31:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I feel so bad for her kids back at home. Like, they have to be explained where mom is and like.
31:21 Karen Kilgariff? It's so sad.
31:22 Georgia Hardstark? It's so sad.
31:23 Karen Kilgariff? It's, yeah, it's lot of, lot of victims here.
31:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
31:27 Karen Kilgariff? She also starts calling the followers Adams, A T O M, like an atom. And there's one live stream where he brings her meatballs for dinner, but she asked for chicken Parmesan. So she starts screaming, "My vision was chicken Parmesan." So the fucking Adams turn around on me and get me meatballs. I didn't say meatballs. I love meatballs, but I didn't fucking say that. Chicken Parmesan. She's just like flipping out.
31:52 Georgia Hardstark? What the fuck?
31:53 Karen Kilgariff? And recording it.
31:55 Georgia Hardstark? Like, why? That's, yeah, you want to hide that behavior.
31:58 Karen Kilgariff? You would think. Also, Father God, he also gets in on it. He can be seen getting into Robertson's face and glaring at him with rage and chastising him while he, while Robertson hangs his head in shame. So he got the order wrong and he's just being attacked by Mother and Father God.
32:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
32:15 Karen Kilgariff? You know, the way the Lord, the Lord you've always heard about. There's also a thing where there's on video, they give a two-year-old child a timeout by putting it in a closet and screaming at the child and saying that they're not, that normal people, their child rearing is programming and it's the, it's basically society that's the cult. Love has won is the only same group of people.
32:39 Georgia Hardstark? It's gotta be it.
32:41 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so around that time is when they try to go to Kauai, they basically get kicked out real quick. So they come back and then so they start pushing these holistic health products. They make a thing called plasma coasters, which quote, act as receivers and transmitters with the ability to neutralize harmful energy. And you're supposed to put them in glasses of water. They sell for sixty six dollars and sixty six cents.
33:06 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck.
33:07 Karen Kilgariff? They also-
33:08 Georgia Hardstark? Sounds like a shrinky dink or something.
33:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
33:10 Georgia Hardstark? It's sea, what were those sea creatures you'd put in water?
33:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, sea monkeys.
33:15 Georgia Hardstark? Sea monkeys.
33:16 Karen Kilgariff? Um, they also are big on colloidal silver and-
33:18 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yes.
33:19 Karen Kilgariff? Gold supplements.
33:20 Georgia Hardstark? Those were big.
33:21 Karen Kilgariff? Colloidal silver was huge for a while. There, so basically they sell their own version of it.
33:28 Georgia Hardstark? Of course they do.
33:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And they claim that it, it can cure COVID.
33:33 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
33:34 Karen Kilgariff? They end up getting a letter from the FDA saying you have to stop-
33:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:37 Karen Kilgariff? Claiming this, you have to stop selling these products. And they don't, they, you, they're not available anymore. So some of their other terrible medical advice, their holistic alternative medical advice, um, they say that turmeric cures diabetes, that lemon and baking soda cures cancer. And they actually tell people that it's a myth that staring into the sun makes you go blind.
33:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
33:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yep. They say that you need to stare into the sun to receive healing quote unquote light codes, and that it quote, burns away the darkness inside you. Um, yeah. They also tell people that you don't have to worry about having heart attacks because it's just your heart expanding.
34:15 Georgia Hardstark? No, it's okay.
34:17 Karen Kilgariff? It's not. So they, it's just a bunch of super dangerous and very crazy, like basically personal theories-
34:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:27 Karen Kilgariff? And creative writing that they're now telling people is like medical, the medical truth.
34:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:32 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
34:32 Georgia Hardstark? Dangerous.
34:33 Karen Kilgariff? Basically, she's gone so far off the rails that her family goes on to Dr. Phil in September of 2020 to try to get her to basically be like this, you have to come out of this. This is, this is brainwashing. And her sisters and mother are there and they're all really worried about her. Dr. Phil confronts her about how she's not a peaceful being. There's that they show the videos of all her cursing and confrontation. She's claims that that one of the reasons is she's been raped several times and that her house was burned down and that she's basically grown weary of it all. But essentially, it's, you know, it just is kind of like, it doesn't make a difference. Yeah.
35:18 Karen Kilgariff? And it's, it's an ineffectual way to kind of try to break this person out of the cults. The problem is that her health is clearly on the, taking a downturn, maybe from the drinking, maybe from all the colloidal silver that she's constantly ingesting. But they, her mom notices on the live stream, she's being carried around by her followers and she seems to be paralyzed from the waist down.
35:43 Georgia Hardstark? What?
35:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So something they, her, her sisters are seeing it. They're so scared and worried. They, they say that they knew she was ill. She looked weak and frail and that she was basically that she was kind of turning a gray blue from how much colloidal silver she was ingesting.
36:02 Georgia Hardstark? Do we know, like, is that not good for you now? Like, do we know that now or it's just large quantities?
36:07 Karen Kilgariff? I have no idea, but I, yeah, if she, if she was ill and they were saying this is what's going to fix you, then, then, right, large quantities of anything like that. But I know, I'd hate to say anything about colloidal, colloidal silver, not knowing. During a live stream on October 15th, 2020, two of her followers admit Amy has expressed a desire to see a doctor, but they refused to take her and they say, there's moments when mom has asked us to take her to the hospital. Nope, there's no way. We know how a hijacking works. So the hijacking is this idea that right is when she's about to ascend, the cabal comes in, kills her and represses the truth. So they they're basically like, you can't go
36:51 Karen Kilgariff? to the hospital because it's a hijacking. So all of her own crazy theories are now turned Yeah. against her. And her followers are basically like, becoming the ones in charge.
37:01 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
37:02 Karen Kilgariff? The last time an outsider confirmed seeing Amy alive is on April 10, 2021. She's in California. She gets a visit from her landlord and he sees that he thinks she's dying.
37:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
37:13 Karen Kilgariff? Like, she looks so bad. The members say she has cancer, but she hasn't gone to a doctor. So there's no official diagnosis or records of that anywhere. It's just what the followers say. So her mother calls the authorities in California asking to do wellness checks. But every time they go to where the followers and Amy are, they turn the police and the ambulances away. Then on April 16, 2021, a photo is posted in one of the Love Has Won private chat rooms of Father God, holding a very frail, incoherent looking Amy in his arms. And it is unclear if she's alive or dead in the photo. Okay, so her cause of death is as yet to be determined, because of the lack of medical records and
37:56 Karen Kilgariff? because of the state of the body when the coroner got it.
38:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:01 Karen Kilgariff? Charges against four of the seven members that were arrested on April 28 have been dropped, including those against Father God, Jason Castillo, Sawatch County District Attorney Alonso Payne tells Dateline, "Our office looked at all the documents and everything that was provided. And from our perspective, the allegations could not be met beyond a reasonable doubt."
38:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:21 Karen Kilgariff? Charges against the remaining three members are still pending. The group that existed under the name Love Has Won has since disbanded, but many of its members have splintered off. And they continue preaching the same ideas under different names. And all the shops that sold products have been shut down. But Lamboy has opened a new nonprofit that basically it's gets them out of paying taxes. So any of the money that goes there, they don't have to pay taxes on it. They now have Uh, one of the groups that still live streams has, they have a tapestry with a photo of Amy on it. That's like behind them in the shot. Some of them are still selling etheric surgeries. Like the way that Amy did spiritual surgeries.
39:04 Karen Kilgariff? Those are fifty five fifty five for thirty minutes.
39:07 Georgia Hardstark? No, discounted.
39:08 Karen Kilgariff? And they're described as your ticket to heaven. For the people who have escaped, love has won. Their search for spiritual fulfillment continues. But now with a much more cautious approach, a former member goes by the name Sarah. Um, does, that's not her real name. She's scared of retaliation. She says, Amy took a lot of spiritual teachings about vibration and energy that are on the right track. But she hijacked them and said they were hers. I still believe there's truth in those principles, but I'm working on taking Amy out of them. And essentially, that is the very strange, bizarre death of Amy Carlson. And the story of the love has won cult.
39:48 Georgia Hardstark? Wow. I want to find out how she died eventually, right?
39:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, well, I mean, s- sounds like she, whatever sickness she had.
39:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
39:57 Karen Kilgariff? There was never any, like, they were just doing holistic practices and no, no one there. So she could have gotten pa- pancreatic cancer.
40:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah.
40:08 Karen Kilgariff? Or something that's quick and awful and just ravages your body. And then she's just taking colloidal silver or drinking.
40:15 Georgia Hardstark? Right, right. And liver cancer, maybe.
40:18 Karen Kilgariff? Horrifying.
40:19 Georgia Hardstark? So fucking wild.
40:22 Karen Kilgariff? I know.
40:22 Georgia Hardstark? Wild. Great job.
40:24 Karen Kilgariff? So crazy. Thank you. I know. Sorry, that was so long.
40:26 Georgia Hardstark? No, no.
40:26 Karen Kilgariff? Like, there was so much, it's just the weirdest thing, because I remembered it. I remember seeing the story and I think people posting about it on Twitter. But it was just at that point in the pandemic where I'm like, no, only comedies. I can't do this. Like, I don't want to know. I can't look at this.
40:43 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, it's wild that in the middle of a pandemic that everyone's freaking out about, you could have such an, like, outside wild story.
40:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
40:51 Georgia Hardstark? It's like, didn't everything stop? Did everyone's life stop?
40:54 Karen Kilgariff? Right. Why didn't you just, uh, but also I think it's like, that's the thing. Like you said, in these unprecedented times, people are scared shitless and they're looking for answers. They're looking for easy, like, digestible answers and solutions. Um, and it makes sense. They're right to want that. They're human to want that.
41:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, just don't be stupid.
41:17 Karen Kilgariff? Just like, it's, I don't know. Yeah. Well, here's the thing, you know, there's very clear, um, you know, they say in cults, it's like, if it's one leader, you're not allowed to contradict, you're not allowed to like take in outside information. You cut yourself off from your family. Like, there's the whole, there's a whole thing of like, is your, are you just, you know, is it just a group of people who are like-minded spiritual seekers?
41:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
41:45 Karen Kilgariff? Or are you, are you basically being indoctrinated?
41:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
41:48 Karen Kilgariff? And those are the things where it's like, if basically there's one person, their god, they have all the answers.
41:54 Georgia Hardstark? And the rules are theirs.
41:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
41:56 Georgia Hardstark? To make alone.
41:57 Karen Kilgariff? And suddenly the rules become about carry, you know, like, you serve me.
42:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
42:02 Karen Kilgariff? Chicken Parmesan.
42:05 Georgia Hardstark? Um, wow.
42:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
42:07 Georgia Hardstark? Well, let's keep it, let's keep an eye on that one.
42:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, yeah.
42:10 Georgia Hardstark? Good job.
42:11 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
42:13 Georgia Hardstark? You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.
42:18 Karen Kilgariff? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural dead sea salt. It's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.
42:28 Georgia Hardstark? If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.
42:39 Karen Kilgariff? Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula.
42:43 Georgia Hardstark? Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.
42:48 Karen Kilgariff? I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.
43:03 Georgia Hardstark? And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?
43:06 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you call my feet stinky?
43:08 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness, you can feel fine. Dr. Teal's magnesium spray, online or in your local bath aisle.
43:14 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
43:15 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.
43:19 Karen Kilgariff? Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.
43:27 Georgia Hardstark? To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.
43:33 Karen Kilgariff? As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.
43:40 Georgia Hardstark? Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?
43:43 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
43:51 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series Phony.
43:53 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
43:58 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
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44:30 Karen Kilgariff? Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.
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45:04 Karen Kilgariff? I really do love Kachava, and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.
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45:30 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
45:32 Georgia Hardstark? I'm going to tell you a story that I found during one of my many late night cold case news scrollings that piqued my interest and is going on right now. And there's a recent twist to it. So the sources I used in today's episode are The Guardian by an article by Richard Luskome, the Unsolved Mysteries fandom page, which is really cool, the Rocky Mountain cold case website, a UPI article, a New York Times article written by Maria Kramer, a Nine News article by Matt Jablow, and a Fox 31 News article by Evan Kruegel. Okay. So have you ever heard of Breckenridge, Colorado?
46:14 Karen Kilgariff? No.
46:15 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, it's a former mining town dating back to the Gold Rush. It's at the base of the Rocky Mountains, about 80 miles from Denver. So like a cute little quaint ski resort town, lots of beautiful old buildings, breweries, you know, like nice restaurants, an art scene, small, cool little town. So on the evening of January 6, 1982, 29-year-old Barbara Jo Oberholzer, whose nickname is Bobby, I'm gonna call her that from now on, she is at a Breckenridge bar with some friends, celebrating a promotion at work. A little before 8:00 PM, she decides to leave early and head back to her husband, named Jeff. Instead of getting ride back with her friends, who are leaving a little later, she decides
46:59 Georgia Hardstark? to hitchhike, which of course is totally normal at the time. Everyone hitchhikes around town. And the area is known for being a popular ski resort. So there's a lot of rich tourists, but the people who live in town, a lot of them can't afford their own car. So hitchhiking is the norm. Bobby has a couple of rules she follows. When she hitchhikes, she doesn't get into cars with two men in there and she won't get into vans. So hitchhiking is super normal, but everyone's still a little aware of that it's dangerous and are still careful about it. But by the next morning, she's not home. And so Jeff, her husband, tries to file a missing persons report. But you know, as it was in the 80s, you can't file one for an adult. It's too early. She probably just fucking spent the night at a friend's house, sort of a thing.
47:45 Georgia Hardstark? However, and so he goes out with his friends trying to find her. They can't track her down. But the next day at around 3 P. M. A farmer who lives 30 miles outside of Breckenridge finds Bobby's license, gets ahold of Jeff, and he comes out to pick up the license. And on his way, he spots something in a snowy field. And he finds it's Bobby's backpack, his wife's backpack.
48:10 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
48:11 Georgia Hardstark? So he also finds a blood spattered wool glove and some tissues that are also covered in blood. And also found there is a woman's orange booty, like her orange sock, like snow booty, that doesn't belong to Bobby. Jeff and his friends start searching for Bobby. And two hours later, 10 miles south of Breckenridge, they find her body.
48:32 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
48:33 Georgia Hardstark? Um, 15 miles from where her backpack was recovered. So almost like someone scattered her, you know, possessions after leaving the body. Police find a pair of 18 inch zip ties tied to one of Bobby's wrists, meaning they think someone had tried to bind her, but she maybe got away before they were able to bind both wrists. In the parking lot of the bar that Bobby had been in that night, police find her key ring. And there's also this like metal hook on the key ring that her husband had made her as like a defensive tool, just in case she ever got in any trouble. And it looks like maybe she had pulled it out to like try to use it. So they think maybe she had gotten in the, in the car with,
49:16 Georgia Hardstark? you know, whoever picked her up, realized something was amiss. He tried to zip tie her. She took out her tool and ran and was able to escape the car. And then they think that she ran downhill to get away. And then the killer caught up with her. And so she had been shot twice. So they think that that's how she was, how she was stopped when she was running away. And then she died a short distance away of blood loss.
49:40 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
49:41 Georgia Hardstark? Then law enforcement gets word that that very same day, the day before that Bobby had gone missing, another young woman had also disappeared from Breckridge. And this is a small town, about a thousand residents. So this is like two women in one day. That is very odd. Mm hmm. So at around 4:45 that day, a 21-year-old woman named Annette Schnee, who was a cocktail waitress, had been hitchhiking home after running some errands. But Annette didn't make it home. There's no trace of her until six months later, on July 3rd, when her body is found by what is called like a young boy or a youth, which always is terrible. Yes. While he was fishing. It's an isolated mountain area where she's found in what's
50:26 Georgia Hardstark? called Sacramento Creek, 20 miles south of Breckridge. Annette's body had been well preserved because of the freezing temperatures. And the medical examiner is able to determine that Annette died from a gunshot, same as Bobby. She's wearing both shoes and on one of her feet is an orange booty. It's the same as the one found at Bobby's scene. So clearly they're connected. Yeah. Police speculate that the killer had murdered Annette first, and then hours later picked up Bobby and murdered her, and then had discarded the belongings between the two scenes. And so the orange sock must have somehow been mixed up by the killer and accidentally
51:05 Georgia Hardstark? discarded. Also, in Annette's possession is one of Bobby's husband Jeff's business cards. Oh. Right? Yeah. So of course Jeff immediately becomes a top suspect. Law enforcement questions him about Annette. So at first he denies knowing her at all. But then he sees a picture of her on the news later and goes back to law enforcement and is like, yeah, I actually do know her. I have met her once. He said he had picked up Annette once while she was hitchhiking and given her his business card of his appliance repair shop after she mentioned needing something fixed. So like fucking coincidence.
51:46 Karen Kilgariff? Capital C.
51:46 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Of course, he denies any involvement in her disappearance or in his wife's death. Takes a polygraph test and passes, apparently has an alibi for the night, but it's sketchy. And of course, law enforcement consider him their top suspect, but aren't able to collect enough evidence to charge him. The case goes cold and becomes the area's like biggest, most enduring cold case.
52:12 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
52:13 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, fast forward about seven years, retired Denver homicide detective Charlie McCormick. He gets burnt out on the Denver homicide scene. It's too stressful for him. So he finally retires and moves to Breckenridge. He hears about the mysterious double murder that happened on the same day in his new hometown. And because he's a homicide detective at heart, his interest has peaked.
52:39 Karen Kilgariff? Mm hmm.
52:39 Georgia Hardstark? Over time, he becomes more and more involved in the case until 1989. Annette's family hires him as their private investigator on the case.
52:48 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
52:49 Georgia Hardstark? He chases some leads throughout the years of serial killers in Montana and Idaho, other suspects as well. Later, he volunteers for the district attorney's task force that's opened. He continues to work on the case almost every day for the next three decades. And guess how much he charges for his detective services, private detective services for Annette's family?
53:11 Karen Kilgariff? Nothing.
53:12 Georgia Hardstark? A dollar a year.
53:14 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
53:15 Georgia Hardstark? I know. I know. So he's like, I want to do and like do this. It's so symbolic.
53:20 Karen Kilgariff? Well, you know what I like about that is, is that he clearly wanted to be a homicide detective.
53:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
53:26 Karen Kilgariff? But like the, the culture, you know, like was part of why he couldn't do it.
53:32 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
53:32 Karen Kilgariff? But he can do it by himself.
53:34 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
53:34 Karen Kilgariff? Independently and separately. And he still wants to be a person that's helping.
53:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
53:41 Karen Kilgariff? Click, like solve those crimes and clear those cases.
53:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like as soon as you heard about it in his new small hometown, he's not just going to be like, well, whatever that is, bye. He's.
53:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, he wants to, it's like. Like anyone else who would hear about that and have the interest would be like, I need to know what happened.
53:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
54:00 Karen Kilgariff? He's somebody who could actually, who has the skills and the availability or the, you know, means.
54:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
54:07 Karen Kilgariff? To get it done.
54:08 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. So originally, the blood on the glove and tissue found near Bobby's belongings were thought to be her blood. But in the nineties, the blood is tested and results show that the blood actually belongs to a man. So that male DNA is tested against Jeff's, the husband of Bobby. It's not his DNA.
54:28 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, wow.
54:29 Georgia Hardstark? And so as a result of this and other evidence, including several alibi witnesses, he's eventually cleared as a suspect. So the fact that his wife gets killed on one day and another woman gets killed on the same day and happens to have his fucking business card in her wallet is just a coincidence.
54:48 Karen Kilgariff? It's literally and truly just a coincidence.
54:50 Georgia Hardstark? How fucking bananas is that?
54:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's horrifying.
54:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And you imagine like so many years, everyone in town thinks she fucking did it.
54:59 Karen Kilgariff? Well, and also it's that thing of that is in those cases, that it's one thing like that, that it, even if it's not enough evidence to prosecute, it just is enough evidence to change everyone's mind about you.
55:13 Georgia Hardstark? Totally, totally.
55:15 Karen Kilgariff? And it would be hard to explain that we're just like, yeah.
55:19 Georgia Hardstark? It's not out of this realm of possibility that everyone would think he's guilty. It totally makes sense.
55:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
55:24 Georgia Hardstark? So unfortunately, the male DNA is not in the criminal database, so the case goes cold again in the nineties. Police look into several different suspects in the case. One is a cab driver named Thomas Edward Luther, who in February 1982, in Breckridge, had picked up a hitchhiker and had raped and assaulted her. And while in jail, he allegedly bragged about being responsible for the murders. And according to his girlfriend, he didn't come home on the night of the murders. And then another suspect named Tracy Petroselli murdered his fiance in 1981 and went on a multi-state crime spree. And during this crime spree, He stayed at the Holiday Inn where Annette worked.
56:05 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, wow.
56:06 Georgia Hardstark? So another fucking crazy coincidence. Neither suspect's DNA matches the evidence from the crime scene. All right. So 20 years later, in 2018, authorities decide to go the forensic genealogy route in hopes of finding a DNA match. So the company United Data Connect finds 12,000 people who are a possible match to the DNA profile. That's on the glove and the tissue. And private investigator Charlie McCormick, who's now 80 years old and still on the case.
56:36 Karen Kilgariff? I know.
56:38 Georgia Hardstark? And he's like, the photo of him, he's like salt of the earth, grandpa.
56:41 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
56:42 Georgia Hardstark? And so he and his team start going through the 12,000 people. Like, you know, genealogy can only get you so far. You still have to do the groundwork.
56:52 Georgia Hardstark? Groundwork?
56:53 Karen Kilgariff? Footwork?
56:54 Georgia Hardstark? Footwork.
56:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
56:55 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
56:56 Karen Kilgariff? But it's the same. Your feet are on the ground.
56:57 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
56:58 Karen Kilgariff? They have to be.
56:59 Georgia Hardstark? Pick one. So the team reaches out to a ton of people who like make sense in those 12,000 people and they all agree to give DNA. And so finally, after a year of searching, the team finds a direct match to whoever the killer is. So a relative of the killer.
57:15 Karen Kilgariff? Mm hmm.
57:16 Georgia Hardstark? All right. So I'm going to pivot real quick for another story that made news in the area at the same time as the missing women did. So on January 6th, 1982, same day that the women went missing. At just before midnight, Sheriff Harold E. Bray is on a United Airlines flight to California. As the plane is flying over the Guanella Pass in Colorado, over these mountain ranges, thousands of feet above, the sheriff sees headlights blinking the Morse code signal for SOS.
57:52 Karen Kilgariff? What?
57:52 Georgia Hardstark? Like, he just happens to be looking out the window. He happens to be a sheriff, so he knows SOS. And he fucking sees blinking SOS.
58:01 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my. Ew, ew. Keep going.
58:04 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
58:05 Karen Kilgariff? Like, the chills, like, what? What did he do?
58:07 Georgia Hardstark? I know. The sheriff tells the flight crew and they radio the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration.
58:15 Georgia Hardstark? The controller for the FAA asks a close by plane to investigate. The plane circles the area, spots a car that had blinking SOS, flashes his light to let the driver know that he's been located. And then the FAA contacts Clear Creek County Fire Chief David Montoya. He's like, can't fucking believe what he's hearing.
58:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
58:38 Georgia Hardstark? Um, a sheriff in an airplane saw a car on the ground using headlights to signal SOS. He's later, he says, he tells 9 News, I thought it was the craziest thing I'd ever heard of. So Dave drives to the top of the Guanella Pass, which has an elevation over 11,000 feet and is widely known to be unpassable during the winter. Again, it's January. Um, Dave finds a truck stuck in a snowdrift and inside is a 30 year old local mechanic named Alan Lee Phillips. Dave says, sure as heck, there he was in his little pickup and he saw me and said, oh my God, I'm saved. It's a small town sheriff, like this shit, like this doesn't happen.
59:19 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
59:19 Georgia Hardstark? You know, so the fire chief, Dave, um, asks Alan what he's doing in the Guanella Pass when it's 20 below freezing and has been snowing heavily and he doesn't have chains on his tires. Like kind of everyone in the area knows not to be driving there. He said he'd been drinking at a bar with some friends and had decided to drive home, which, you know, over the pass and he'd been drinking. So he thought it was a good idea at the time. You know, the eighties when drinking and driving.
59:48 Karen Kilgariff? Were an excuse you could tell the sheriff and that would be okay.
59:52 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Alan says that, um, as he traveled over the pass, his truck got stuck. He tried to dig the truck out, didn't work. Started walking to a nearby, nearby ski area, but realized it was too cold. So he got back in his truck covered with an emergency blanket and then thought about what to do. He heard the airplane flashed SOS and so that, you know,
1:00:15 Karen Kilgariff? That's a miracle.
1:00:15 Georgia Hardstark? Fucking saved. He would have frozen to death in his truck.
1:00:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:00:18 Georgia Hardstark? Like quickly.
1:00:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:00:20 Georgia Hardstark? Before driving Alan home, Dave, the fire chief notices that Alan has a quote. sizable bruise on the side of his face. When asked about the bruise, Alan says while he was waiting for help, he'd gotten out of his truck to pee. When he tried to get back in, he was blinded by the snow and slammed headfirst into the corner of the truck. The story of this crazy rescue of a man who otherwise would have frozen to death becomes huge news. Well, almost forty years later, forty years from the day that the two women had been murdered
1:00:57 Georgia Hardstark? and this guy had been found on the pass, the DNA from the glove and tissue belong, turns out to none other than that man. Who had been disposing of Annette's body. After he had gone over the pass.
1:01:14 Georgia Hardstark? So like these two fucking separate stories, just in twenty eighteen, turned out to be related.
1:01:20 Karen Kilgariff? Holy shit.
1:01:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So Alan Lee Phillips is his name. He's matched to the DNA via a discarded fast food wrapper that had traces of his saliva on. You know, it still took a while for them to track him down and to match the DNA. It isn't until his mugshot is shown on local television news that the now retired fire chief, Dave, our friend Dave Montoya, recognizes him as the guy who forty, almost forty years ago, he had saved from the mountain pass. So they hadn't even put it together yet that it was the same dude and that's exactly, he had been fucking disposing of Annette's body.
1:01:58 Karen Kilgariff? My god.
1:01:59 Georgia Hardstark? I know. Chilling, right? Dave says, quote, "We ended up picking up the guy straight out of hell." So as it turns out, Alan hadn't been driving home from the bar that night. He was heading home after killing Bobby and Annette. Alan is now seventy years old and the father of three. And since nineteen eighty-two, he had been still living in the Breckenridge area. On February twenty-fourth, twenty twenty-one, police arrest Alan without incident at a traffic stop in Clear Creek County.
1:02:30 Georgia Hardstark? Kidnapping first degree assault and first degree murder of both Annette Schnee and Bobby Joe Oberholzer. Today, Monday, the 13th, was his preliminary hearing.
1:02:39 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, whoa.
1:02:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And as of this recording, we don't have much info about him. I did the best I could about who he is and what he did. He might like be connected to more murders, so I'll keep everyone posted.
1:02:50 Karen Kilgariff? He, he also, if he's on his way to court, might be found innocent.
1:02:55 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, right. Alleged.
1:02:57 Karen Kilgariff? Important to mention.
1:02:58 Georgia Hardstark? Right. It's all alleged.
1:03:00 Karen Kilgariff? It's all alleged.
1:03:01 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Bobby's husband, Jeff, who at one time was a suspect, released a statement saying that he praised the arrest, quote, "will finally, after all these decades, bring closure and peace to this hideous nightmare." After Phillip's arrest, Annette's mother, Eileen, who is now 88 years old, says her family has endured, quote, "39 years of hell." She said, quote, "It's been a rough four years. I thought maybe I'd be gone before I had closure in this case." And then she said, "I'm ready to go when it's my time now." And that is the story of Annette Schnee and Bobby Joe Oberholzer.
1:03:41 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, holy shit.
1:03:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:03:45 Karen Kilgariff? That is the craziest, most roundabout. First of all, I can't believe I've never heard that.
1:03:52 Georgia Hardstark? Because it just, it just happened. They were just connected as two cold cases you hadn't heard about. It was one guy driving over a fucking mountain pass you hadn't heard about, and then it turns out they're connected.
1:04:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I mean, the, the mountain pass story feels like the kind of weird news story that you would read separately in any way.
1:04:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:04:11 Karen Kilgariff? The idea that they're all the same storyline in out of chronological order.
1:04:16 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:04:17 Karen Kilgariff? Is mind blowing.
1:04:18 Georgia Hardstark? And it's not until this guy sees him on the news that he puts it all together. Fucking 40 years later, I can't recognize someone I met last weekend.
1:04:25 Karen Kilgariff? But it must have been, well, because it was weird enough as it was, but it must have been very.
1:04:32 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, it made the news. Yeah.
1:04:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. The, the event itself, but I'm saying, I wonder if that fire chief. Just had some kind of a vibe of like, oh, this is interesting and weird and off.
1:04:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:04:44 Karen Kilgariff? And whatever. But he's also not a cop. So he's just like, all right, let's just get you out of here.
1:04:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:04:48 Karen Kilgariff? That's that part isn't really.
1:04:50 Georgia Hardstark? No. Nothing suspicious, except for the bruise, but that does make sense of how he would get it, right?
1:04:57 Karen Kilgariff? Well, absolutely. And that as much as the business card in
1:05:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:05:02 Karen Kilgariff? A dead woman's possessions, you know, you you can write that off or you would have to. Anyone can have a bruise for any reason.
1:05:11 Georgia Hardstark? Totally, totally.
1:05:12 Karen Kilgariff? One you don't even remember, like.
1:05:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:05:14 Karen Kilgariff? Wow, that's, that's a mind, that's mind blowing.
1:05:17 Georgia Hardstark? So if anything comes up, I'll, I'll update everyone.
1:05:20 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, good. All right. That's it. We did our job.
1:05:22 Georgia Hardstark? We absolutely did. And you guys did yours. Thank you so much for listening. We appreciate all of you. Send us your hometowns. Send us like, you know, high fives and hellos, whatever you want.
1:05:33 Karen Kilgariff? Sure. Get in there and, um, you know, stay sexy.
1:05:38 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
1:05:39 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:05:41 Speaker 04 Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:05:50 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right production.
1:05:52 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.
1:05:54 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
1:05:57 Georgia Hardstark? This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.
1:05:59 Karen Kilgariff? Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.
1:06:02 Georgia Hardstark? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:06:05 Karen Kilgariff? Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:06:07 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:06:12 Karen Kilgariff? And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.
1:06:17 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:06:25 Karen Kilgariff? Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
1:06:31 Georgia Hardstark? With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.
1:06:36 Karen Kilgariff? You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.
1:06:39 Georgia Hardstark? Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.
1:06:44 Karen Kilgariff? Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.
1:06:50 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye. You know a favorite M word? Magnesium.
1:06:54 Karen Kilgariff? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.
1:06:57 Georgia Hardstark? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.
1:07:03 Karen Kilgariff? If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's Teal's magnesium spray, part of your nighttime routine.
1:07:08 Georgia Hardstark? Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.
1:07:15 Karen Kilgariff? Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.
1:07:18 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.
1:07:24 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. Shopping for your next car can feel overwhelming. There's so many options and you want to make sure you're making the right choice.
1:07:31 Georgia Hardstark? That's where cars.com comes in.
1:07:33 Karen Kilgariff? Research your options with unbiased expert reviews, guides and comparisons. Then shop based on the features that matter most to you.
1:07:40 Georgia Hardstark? You can even see real financing rates and monthly payments to help understand what you can afford.
1:07:45 Karen Kilgariff? Turn endless possibilities into the right car for you.
1:07:48 Georgia Hardstark? Start your search at cars.com.
1:07:50 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
Previous Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 59: Live At The Wilbur Next MFM Minisode 451 Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated