489 - We Are Your Baby

This week, Georgia covers the kidnapping of John Paul Getty III and Karen tells the story of the Pappygate bourbon heist. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 0:42Georgia Hardstark?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 0:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 0:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 0:53Karen Kilgariff?

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 0:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 1:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 1:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, everybody, it's Georgia and Karen, and we're so excited to announce our newest podcast on the Exactly Right Network.

• 1:21Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a show called Trust Me. It explores cults, manipulation, and extreme belief systems, and it's hosted by Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth.

• 1:29Georgia Hardstark?

  They're smart, funny, insightful women who also happen to be cult survivors themselves. They'll be talking to other survivors, experts, and former believers to unpack how cults work, how people get pulled in, and how to get out.

• 1:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So stick around after this episode and listen to the trailer for Trust Me, our brand-new cult podcast.

• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  And after you listen, head over to Trust Me's feed and please hit follow so you can be there for their Exactly Right premiere on Wednesday, July 30.

• 1:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And look for Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You're gonna love this one. Trust me.

• 2:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 2:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 2:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 2:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 2:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 2:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 2:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is the podcast you're looking for.

• 2:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Here we are. Come and get us.

• 2:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh. Yep. New slogans. More professionalism at the top of this podcast.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's the attitude you're looking for.

• 2:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, girly pop.

• 2:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, are you a girly that likes?

• 2:43Karen Kilgariff?

  To slay?

• 2:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, slay we must.

• 2:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Stand on business right in front of us with your ears.

• 2:50Georgia Hardstark?

  We stan you.

• 2:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I have to have my hands on my hips like this to do my character.

• 2:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a very like.

• 2:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Modern.

• 2:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm trying to be modern.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That's sus at all. Oh, God. I hate it.

• 3:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I hate everything.

• 3:05Georgia Hardstark?

  They must hate it.

• 3:05Karen Kilgariff?

  They must love it. Here's the thing. Is this similar to when, well, you won't be able to answer this. I always forget. You're 10 years younger than me. When the Valley Girl song came out.

• 3:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And everybody all of a sudden overnight started talking like a Valley Girl. It drove my parents insane. And I wonder if it's just like that same kind of thing where to us, we're like,

• 3:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 3:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. Like, we have to talk like this. Like, it was that thing where we didn't understand there was an option to to remove yourself from the trend.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 3:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you kind of weren't, the trend was for you. You were in the trend.

• 3:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Shit, man. Are we gonna get into fucking sociology now? Because I have no clue.

• 3:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's light up this bong and get into our version of sociology.

• 3:49Georgia Hardstark?

  See, they don't even have, it would be a vape. They don't even have bongs anymore. Like, that's how fucking bad we are.

• 3:53Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like, we don't know what that is.

• 3:54Georgia Hardstark?

  We don't do bongs. It's actually bad for the environment.

• 3:58Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a fossil fuel.

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Bongs.

• 4:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Speaking of, and can I bring them down completely?

• 4:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 4:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you watching One Night in Idaho?

• 4:08Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The new documentary about?

• 4:10Karen Kilgariff?

  The Kohlberger murder?

• 4:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I have not seen it.

• 4:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So heart wrenching. And it's by our friend Liz Garbus.

• 4:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 4:17Georgia Hardstark?

  She directs it. She's one of the directors.

• 4:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Incredible.

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So, of course, it's incredible and heartbreaking. Heartbreaking, heartbreaking, but like, just really well done and not,

• 4:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I gotta watch it.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, gross.

• 4:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta watch it.

• 4:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That story, I mean, still.

• 4:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, well, you know, he just fucking pled guilty.

• 4:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank God.

• 4:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, thank God.

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank God those families don't have to sit through the trial and the appeals and the, you know.

• 4:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And hearing all of those and, and the kids that lived that like people are trying to somehow.

• 4:45Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the whole first episode is the kids getting interviewed. They interview everyone.

• 4:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God.

• 4:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's the whole first episode. And it's just like, you know, you couldn't have found a more innocent place to have this happen.

• 4:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's really heartbreaking, but, you know, as a true crime doc, it's good.

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of, we were gonna talk about Murder Land.

• 5:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 5:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The book.

• 5:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 5:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So the book is, just came out. It's called Murder Land: Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers by Caroline Fraser. And it's basically about the thing we've talked about, which is that between 1920 and the 90s, when leaded gasoline was legal and abundant, the rise in violent crime follows the same track of how much lead is in the air.

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  And so it talks about all these serial killers, mainly in the Pacific Northwest, because there was like smelt, there were all these like smelting, just completely immoral manufacturers of arsenic and lead and just dumping everything into the sky and into the fucking water. And all these serial killers came out of it.

• 5:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 5:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so fascinating and heartbreaking.

• 5:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, I'm just thinking of just like, why aren't there more? Or are there more we don't know about? Or did they go, was it like the serial killing switch flipped in some people, but then other things flipped in other people?

• 6:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably. I mean, well, in general, it just made everyone's IQ lower. It just kind of made like three generations of people less, you know, I can't think of the word because I'm a part of that generation.

• 6:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Baby, that's us.

• 6:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I was born in 1980, so I'm fucked.

• 6:18Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And my parents, my parents grew up in LA, so like, that's just, there's just.

• 6:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's all.

• 6:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Lead city.

• 6:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's lead in the air. And also then the smog situation where it keeps it in the like breathing environment.

• 6:29Georgia Hardstark?

  So if you're into history at all, I think that Murder Land is a really great book. You're gonna love it. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

• 6:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I want it.

• 6:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, you can have it when I'm done. I'm almost done.

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 6:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't wait. Well. Speaking of the Pacific Northwest and other regions of this nation.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Good one.

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 6:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:47Karen Kilgariff?

  We announced last week that we are going on tour. Now, we are recording this episode, obviously, Monday, four days before it actually airs. So, we don't know what the status of the tickets will be when you are hearing this. So, we can't really tell you what's going on. But if you might still want a ticket, give it a try. Go over to myfavoritemurder.com/live. All the cities, there's pages for every city there and you can go on and see if they're sold out or not.

• 7:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, get those last tickets. Come to the late show. They're always weird. Oh, and we should tell people that the late show and the early show are not going to be the same stories. I think we didn't tell people that and so they don't know to get both tickets. Stay out all night.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. We haven't done Same Story 2 shows since our first tour where we found out by people asking us and then being overtly disappointed in our faces. Are you doing the same story for the second show?

• 7:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 7:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Remember that? I think it's Seattle.

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No, because we said it on the stage and they, and I, like, there was a groan.

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. We didn't know. We're like, oh, so we, double work?

• 7:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Double work.

• 7:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, sounds good.

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Double work for that night. Same dress, though. Same, I'm not fucking changing.

• 7:51Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no fucking way we're changing.

• 7:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So, sorry if you wanted to see a different dress, don't get a ticket. But if you want to hear a different story, get a ticket for the late show and the early show.

• 8:00Karen Kilgariff?

  We're immediately making this a negative thing when, in fact, people were very excited when we made this announcement. We actually asked Chin and our social media manager, hey, do you mind co-finding us some funny comments?

• 8:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Stuff that people said. So, my first one that made me laugh so hard is Courtney on Instagram said, I'm skipping my son's toddler swim class tomorrow just for the fan cult pre-sale.

• 8:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my gosh. Send him with someone else, though. Don't send him alone.

• 8:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Too bad. No, that baby will not learn to swim because of us.

• 8:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I can hear him in his therapist's office in 20 years. My mom.

• 8:33Karen Kilgariff?

  She loves true crime.

• 8:35Georgia Hardstark?

  This one says, I'm canceling my honeymoon from Katie Them on Instagram.

• 8:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you, Katie. This one, Wild Lou from Instagram.

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  This is must be in reference to the video that went out. It says, do you stare each other dead in the eyes when you talk? It looks like it in these recordings, so I need to know. We just, we just talked about that. We had to like, record something that was supposed to be a promo. And we're like, it's weird if we're saying this to each other. But we do stare each other.

• 9:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Sell it, say it, share it, say it, share it.

• 9:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Have to. What if I was just slightly turned out like this?

• 9:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So anyway.

• 9:11Karen Kilgariff?

  George, I agree.

• 9:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, maybe you're looking at my forehead and I just don't know it.

• 9:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it could be.

• 9:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, this maybe is one of the best ones off Instagram by the Wild Pine. Not me wondering if I can hold my baby in so I can make the Boston date on my due date. Been waiting for this longer than her arrival.

• 9:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 9:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's my pitch, have a baby at our live show.

• 9:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 9:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That would be a bit.

• 9:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It would be quite something.

• 9:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't get, you can't paper press like that.

• 9:37Karen Kilgariff?

  We're the real baby.

• 9:38Georgia Hardstark?

  We are your baby.

• 9:39Karen Kilgariff?

  We're the baby, that baby's new.

• 9:41Georgia Hardstark?

  There has been a baby at our live shows before, so.

• 9:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 9:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Just, you know, make sure.

• 9:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Little baby and headphones.

• 9:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So cute.

• 9:48Karen Kilgariff?

  We also had a lot of people from small towns being angry that we're not coming to their small town, which we love. Bring that passionate rage to us.

• 9:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You like that energy.

• 9:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it.

• 9:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, there wasn't really. Paula McCambridge on Instagram said, I sure hope you're coming to a tiny little town in Michigan's remote upper peninsula, namely the historic Calumet Theater. So Paula lives in Calumet, Michigan. That has, it's a town of 676 people.

• 10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And they'll all be there.

• 10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, guys.

• 10:17Georgia Hardstark?

  At the early show.

• 10:18Karen Kilgariff?

  They all, they have to come to every show four times.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, we've got Savannah, we know you want us to come, Australia, lots of Canada. Apologies. This is, you know, this is us dipping our toe and just kind of giving it a shot.

• 10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Canada's like, we can't come to your country anymore.

• 10:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Our government warned against it.

• 10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, Anna Rose with two As at the bottom and two Es at the end says, want to make a quick trip to Okinawa, Japan? Kay, thanks, bye.

• 10:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we do.

• 10:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, but I can't imagine that's gonna sell out.

• 10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And then Kay Taylor Gore said, please come remotely near Mississippi. You can even come to my house if you want.

• 10:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That's nice.

• 10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a tiny little.

• 10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Next door, just people's houses.

• 10:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's Maria Bamford did that. Did you ever see that special?

• 11:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 11:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, it's the best comedy special. It's literally like 12 people sitting around a living room and it's kind of dark and she's up there.

• 11:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And she just does like a tour of people's houses. That's so brilliant.

• 11:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She's so brilliant.

• 11:13Georgia Hardstark?

  She's so funny. I see her at the dog park a lot and I'm always like, hey.

• 11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  She's the best. God, she's such a good comic. Well, that was fun. Yeah, so thanks you guys for caring and being excited. We are too.

• 11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but tell me, look me in the eye when you say that.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, thanks, guys. Guys, it means so much to us.

• 11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  We appreciate it.

• 11:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Wide eyes.

• 11:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Telling each other only.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I saw a TikTok about someone who was like, if there's a man that you feel is somehow trying to intimidate you, don't turn away, don't try to get away. It's like, the best thing you could do is make eye contact and widen your eyes a little bit.

• 11:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I just look super terrifying. That's good. I like that. I could do that in my sleep.

• 11:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Let the predator know.

• 11:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, my favorite one, though, is that is when she is being followed by this dude and he says something to her and she turns to him and goes, you can see me? You can see me? And then starts chasing him? You can see me, okay? How can you see me? Like she's a ghost or something and I'm just like, wow.

• 12:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, that's fucking ballsy.

• 12:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's creative. It's effective. It's not, yeah.

• 12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's hilarious.

• 12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Going for it.

• 12:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, speaking of which, this is a complete left turn.

• 12:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Where are you going?

• 12:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Over here. Bye. Bye, Georgia.

• 12:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen's turning. She's got, getting something.

• 12:26Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a belated birthday gift for you.

• 12:28Georgia Hardstark?

  For me?

• 12:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 12:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I just want to, we have to point out that the ribbons are ketchup and mustard color.

• 12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that on purpose? Is that, is that a hint?

• 12:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Well.

• 12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, thank you.

• 12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 12:41Karen Kilgariff?

  You said something a couple of episodes ago when you're like, on my birthday and I was like, oh, shit. Because the, the Italian hand was huge.

• 12:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I, I held on to that for like three months, though. It wasn't specifically for your birthday, but I was like, it's coming up soon enough.

• 12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. It's a hot dog phone.

• 13:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a hot dog phone.

• 13:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god. Where did you find this? Is it vintage?

• 13:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Our writer, Alison Agosti, found that online and was like, I don't know. It feels like you never gave Georgia anything for her birthday.

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy fucking shit. It's like, like a 1980s.

• 13:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And do you know, this was used, this is Newman's phone on Seinfeld. Newman, the irritating neighbor.

• 13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, of course.

• 13:28Karen Kilgariff?

  He gets in trouble one time. There's an episode and he answers his phone and that's the phone he answers.

• 13:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Honestly, this might be the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. And it's got its original box, which is like so big, you know?

• 13:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I'm acting like I had anything to do with it, but Alison was like, don't you want to give this to Georgia? I'm like, yes, I do.

• 13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And when was the last time you held a fucking phone in your hand? Like, hang up. Like, people, you know, it's like.

• 13:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Slam this thing down.

• 13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello, Oscar Mayer? Dude.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so weird. I love it.

• 13:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And you can make it either tone or pulse when you dial.

• 14:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I remember the, oh my god.

• 14:04Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a redial R button. Shit, dude.

• 14:07Georgia Hardstark?

  This is great. This is amazing. Thank you. Can we put it here for now?

• 14:10Karen Kilgariff?

  You're welcome. Oh my god, yes. Hot dog phone and we should get this made into a real landline. And eventually, people can call in on the hot dog phone. Like, one call an episode?

• 14:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. That is like fucking amazing. Like, I'm speechless.

• 14:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay. Okay, good. I'm glad. Cause the Italian hand.

• 14:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So much better than hamburger. Fuck the hamburger phone.

• 14:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck hamburger phone. It's a hot dog phone.

• 14:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so much better.

• 14:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I really, when I unwrapped that Italian hand, I was like, oh my god, I don't even know. I don't even know how I'm gonna match this thing. It's so epic and perfect.

• 14:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. You did it.

• 14:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 14:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, Alison.

• 14:48Karen Kilgariff?

  She had her eye, she had her eye out. She was like, how do we make this all work?

• 14:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's vintage. It's in its original box. Like, that is like. That's a shit kiss, not an Italian hand gesture.

• 14:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a, yes, it's a positive.

• 14:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, who was the person that bought that and never fucking touched it?

• 15:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone bought it as a joke for their grandma or something.

• 15:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That, right?

• 15:08Karen Kilgariff?

  God, thank you.

• 15:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Grandma always ate hot dogs.

• 15:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 15:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Did your grandma have a hot dog phone or did someone you know have a hot dog phone growing up? Tell us about it at myfavoritemail@gmail.

• 15:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Call us at 1-800-H-O-T-D-O-G.

• 15:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, no, comment and tell us if you had a hot dog phone on, on, uh, on this post. Okay. By the way, we have an Exactly Right network. It's a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media.

• 15:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Where the Exactly Right shows go.

• 15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 15:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's some information about them.

• 15:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, for example, we have a podcast called Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, and this week Roz is gagged and goosebumped for the arrival of Canadian ghost hunting duo Luke Hutchey and Matthew Finland. They share spooky origin stories and behind the scenes moments with their celebrity ghost hunting web series, Ghosting with Luke Hutchey and Matthew Finland.

• 15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So fun, getting the professionals in. I love it.

• 15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, Roz must have been freaking out.

• 15:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. On Do You Need a Ride, Karen over there and Chris, welcome comedian and musician Paul Dankie. Love him.

• 16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  The best.

• 16:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Love to see him at a party. And they talk about disappointed dads, bathtub wine, and more.

• 16:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I will, I love Paul Dankie. He truly is one of the funniest standup comedians. He's the guy that can play all over this great country of ours and do amazing because he's just the guy that like you want to talk to at a party.

• 16:20Georgia Hardstark?

  He's very likeable.

• 16:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And he is one of the first friends I made when I went back to standup after I, yeah, like my big return to standup, which was so humiliating.

• 16:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And I made, like, he and I met at a show and it was like we were just immediately best friends. Love him.

• 16:35Georgia Hardstark?

  He's great.

• 16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the best. And over on the knife, off record, Hannah and Pasha sit down with Anna Sinfield, who is the producer and writer of the podcast The Girlfriends. And they're talking about telling stories where women win. Anna previews the new season of the show, The Girlfriends: Jailhouse Lawyer, and Hannah shares a legal update on the Brenda Andrew case.

• 16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  That is such a great podcast.

• 16:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So good. It's so compelling.

• 17:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, yeah.

• 17:02Karen Kilgariff?

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• 17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception: his mom. To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives. But for Sonny, he knows something is off. As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger. Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series Phony.

• 18:29Karen Kilgariff?

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• 19:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.

• 19:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such an easy way to get everything you need and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.

• 19:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So embrace your salty side.

• 19:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Go to kachava.com and use code MFM for 15% off your first order.

• 19:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM. Goodbye.

• 19:38Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, is that it? I think that's it. Da, da, da, da, da. I think I'm first. So for my story, we're gonna go to the summer of 1973. We're gonna go to Rome.

• 19:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 19:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you been?

• 19:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I have.

• 19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course you have.

• 19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I was recently.

• 19:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 19:54Karen Kilgariff?

  I actually, for my last vacation, the last fall, I went to Italy. And then we've been joking about me doing a video for the fan call where I show everybody my pictures in a real boring slideshow style.

• 20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And narrate them, because they're just, they're the pictures everyone has when they go to Italy.

• 20:09Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called Instagram. I don't know if you've met it.

• 20:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I have not at all. I don't know her. I don't know that man.

• 20:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, all right, so we're in summer of 1973, we're in Rome, and a 16-year-old boy vanishes off the streets.

• 20:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 20:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not just any boy, though. It's not just any normal kid. He was born John Paul Getty III, heir to the vast Getty oil fortune.

• 20:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 20:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course. What follows is a bizarre tale of ransom, severed ears, and a billionaire grandfather who refuses to pay up.

• 20:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I just, first of all, I really love this story.

• 20:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm very excited you're about to tell it.

• 20:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:46Karen Kilgariff?

  My dad loves to talk about how cheap Getty was.

• 20:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No way.

• 20:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he can't believe that someone would be that rich and that, he goes, do you know? He goes, "Do you know that, uh, there was no phone to use in that house? You had to use a payphone?"

• 21:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I have that in my story.

• 21:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so sorry.

• 21:04Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's true. Like, that's like, everyone knows that, apparently.

• 21:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so hilarious.

• 21:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, you're that rich and you put a payphone in your castle.

• 21:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, it's a castle.

• 21:13Karen Kilgariff?

  What, what are you keeping it for?

• 21:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, I'll tell you even worse shit about this guy.

• 21:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great.

• 21:17Georgia Hardstark?

  But we can argue it, because there is, like, an excuse for it that he gives that I'm like, "I hear you, but you're still a dick."

• 21:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 21:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Um, and so the main sources for the story are a 1974 article from Rolling Stone by Joe Estrahaus, who is the screenwriter of such famous films as Flashdance, Basic Instinct, and your favorite movie of all time? Showgirls.

• 21:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 21:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, see this, he's the screenwriter of all those?

• 21:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 21:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. I thought he was a director.

• 21:44Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, let's talk about J. Paul Getty. He amassed his fortune through the Getty Oil Company, which he founded in the 1950s, which kind of has a through line to that Murderland book, you know? Just people using Earth's resources to get wealthy and make other people work hard and then die early for them.

• 22:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And when they get the science back that, hey, maybe your invention isn't that great for people, they're like, too late now.

• 22:06Georgia Hardstark?

  They literally hide it. They literally hide it. This book is a little infuriating, I must say, like.

• 22:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet.

• 22:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Anyway, that's not this.

• 22:14Karen Kilgariff?

  This is all this.

• 22:14Georgia Hardstark?

  This is not this, this is something else. So, but his father had been involved in the oil industry in the early 20th century, you know, the rich get richer. People in LA, of course, know the Getty family name, thanks to the sprawling Getty Museum campus. We all have been to the Getty. It's an art museum housed in several palatial buildings that are owned by the family. And we also know Balthazar Getty, the actor.

• 22:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, such a beautiful young man.

• 22:38Georgia Hardstark?

  The kidnapped boy's son.

• 22:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, right. The kidnapped son's son. The grandson, some call them.

• 22:44Georgia Hardstark?

  But the kidnapped kid is his son. His actual son.

• 22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. No, no. Balthazar Getty is his son, right?

• 22:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah. Okay, take that out.

• 22:54Karen Kilgariff?

  No, that was fascinating.

• 22:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know where we are. Okay, so the J in, this is confusing, the J in J. Paul Getty stands for Jean, like the French version of John. He names his own son, John Paul Getty II, and then John Paul Getty II names his own son, Jean Paul Getty III, but most people refer to the third, the kid, as Paul. So, we're gonna call him that through the rest of this, just for simplicity's sake. If it gets confusing, just let me know. So, grandpa, J. Paul Getty, gets married five different times and has five children. By the 1970s, when our story takes place, he is quite literally the richest man in the world.

• 23:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, wow.

• 23:31Georgia Hardstark?

  With an estimated fortune of about, you're gonna laugh at this, and we could talk about it.

• 23:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 23:36Georgia Hardstark?

  One billion dollars.

• 23:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 23:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is adorable in today's money.

• 23:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why everything is so fucked.

• 23:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So, how much would that be in today's money?

• 23:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Seventies billion?

• 23:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Seventies one billion.

• 23:48Karen Kilgariff?

  One billion. Is it seventies, isn't that long ago, is it? Yes, it is. It's 50 years.

• 23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Fifty billion?

• 23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Seven. I knew you were gonna get it wrong because it's like too small. It should be bigger.

• 24:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 24:02Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's not. But however, this is really interesting that Ali let me know. She said, "As an aside, the current wealthiest man in the world, Elon Musk, is worth about $381 billion." In fact, a fortune of that $7 billion today wouldn't even crack the list of the top 300 richest people." And then Ali wrote, "Just to give you an idea of how much has changed in terms of wealth disparity over the past 50 years." And I'm like, "I love you."

• 24:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 24:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. So like, that is absurd and insane and unnecessary and gross.

• 24:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's what happens when you deregulate and you buy up all the representatives and everything goes fucking crooked.

• 24:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And, and, ah, okay. Back to our story. She wrote, "Back to our story," because she probably knew we'd go off on a tangent.

• 24:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I'm so sorry, but why did I fucking put a sweater on at the beginning of this? I don't know.

• 24:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I'm hot. Always more AC. We're over 40.

• 24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So sorry, so sorry.

• 24:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Okay, and so in addition to being enormously wealthy, Jay Paul is known for being extremely cheap, I guess, which was news back then that everyone knew about.

• 25:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, I'm sure it's what a fun thing to talk about. You have it all and you're penny pinching.

• 25:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Everyone loves that. And the most extreme example is that he had a castle outside of London called Sutton Place, literally a former residence of Henry VIII, and he put in a payphone so his guests wouldn't charge him for long-distance phone calls, which were expensive at the time.

• 25:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, a dime!

• 25:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Calling, no, no, no. Remember calling long distance when you were a kid? You got in trouble because you called your best friend from camp and...

• 25:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh, long distance. I get you.

• 25:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. But I know, I'm, I know. I know. I know.

• 25:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, "It was expensive." I'm like, "A dime isn't expensive."

• 25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  A dime in today's money wouldn't be. But here's a, here's a darker illustration of how he was so cheap. He had a son with his fifth wife, a woman named Louise Getty, who was known by the name Teddy. Their son, Timmy, is diagnosed with a brain tumor when he's six years old in the early 50s. It causes him to go blind. Jay Paul scolds Teddy for her spending on his medical treatments. Says she spent too much on them. Yep, Teddy dies from his illness sadly when he's 12 years old and Jay Paul does not attend the funeral, saying he's too busy with work. So it's basically, it's basically, what's his name in The Simpsons, Monty?

• 26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh yeah, Burns?

• 26:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Mr. Burns, yeah, think of him.

• 26:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I mean, either he's a complete sociopath, or he's making those decisions, and then when the like, effects of those decisions come up, he's like, I can't look at that or deal with that.

• 26:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, you're being kind.

• 26:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to figure it out. How the fuck do you have all that money and that's the way you're living your life?

• 26:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally.

• 26:44Karen Kilgariff?

  You're miserable then, you're electing to be miserable.

• 26:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Your life isn't happy, and so what's the fucking point?

• 26:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Those are the people that like, on their deathbed, they're like, I wish I had, and it's always something they could have done, you know, spend more time with my family.

• 26:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we all knew that. Spend less time with dickheads. Did you see that? Have you seen that meme? It's a guy with a strong Australian accent who says, spend less time with their kids?

• 27:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh yeah.

• 27:07Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's like, spend less time with dickheads? But the guy thinks he's saying, okay, stop it. Okay.

• 27:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Focus.

• 27:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Focus. So Paul the son, the teenager that we're talking about at the center of the story, is born in 1956 to Eugene Getty, you know, the second, and a woman named Gail Harris, she's a San Francisco socialite.

• 27:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 27:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder if she knew your family?

• 27:25Karen Kilgariff?

  She is really good friends with my mom.

• 27:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe your grandma cleaned her house.

• 27:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, for real. I was gonna say, there's no socialites crossing over with the Kilgariff or the Pat Knights family.

• 27:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Unless it's like, she was called in as a caterer one night for the party.

• 27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Literally.

• 27:39Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm not, that sounds insulting. Maybe she cleaned her, maybe your grandma cleaned her house. Your grandma was a...

• 27:43Karen Kilgariff?

  My grandma was a maid.

• 27:44Georgia Hardstark?

  A maid, right.

• 27:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely.

• 27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I'm not being an asshole.

• 27:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, not in the least.

• 27:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. And the family moves to Rome when Paul is two years old. And of course, Paul is born into a life of enormous privilege, but it's not a particularly happy one, as none of us are surprised to hear. He's a sensitive child, he just immediately is aware of the disconnect between his family and everyone else around him. Spends a lot of time alone, and says he has absolutely no fond childhood memories.

• 28:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh no.

• 28:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I was abused and I have fond childhood memories. You know what I mean?

• 28:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 28:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, it's so.

• 28:21Karen Kilgariff?

  No, usually it's a mix, you know?

• 28:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 28:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a, but that's absolutely awful. Also, it makes sense if you already are disconnected, if you are like the uber wealthy anyway.

• 28:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause the only kids you meet are like, yeah, the people who work for you, their children, and they have to be nice to you, or they have to come to your party, and they just don't really, like that creepy.

• 28:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Sadness.

• 28:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Sad thing.

• 28:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, he didn't have any dimes to make phone calls with, so.

• 28:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And like, yeah, woe is, woe is the little rich boy we know. Like, just, just bear with us for this story, okay?

• 28:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But I think like, if you're gonna come in hard for that argument, it's like, but quality of life is not, as we've all learned, it's like, those people, Elon Musk spends a lot of his time on Twitter.

• 29:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Fighting with people.

• 29:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 29:05Karen Kilgariff?

  He could literally buy himself a whale and ride it around in the ocean if he wanted to.

• 29:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but I'd rather be lonely than starving, you know?

• 29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  True.

• 29:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 29:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I don't know, sometimes you're like, party and you're starving, but you're like, how many parties did you go to in your twenties? We were just kinda like, maybe I'll steal some.

• 29:21Georgia Hardstark?

  You're saying that because you were starving throughout your twenties, literally.

• 29:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And in deep, deep debt.

• 29:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And go to a lot of parties.

• 29:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And I basically was like, this is better than having any money in my bank account.

• 29:31Georgia Hardstark?

  We had, we had a really good time in our twenties, respectively.

• 29:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we did.

• 29:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 29:37Karen Kilgariff?

  What are we talking about?

• 29:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know. This is problematic, and the kids these days, no. But he loves reading, he loves hiding away with a book, he reads about oceanographers, he's just loves hiding away with a book, that's his childhood. In 1966, when he's 10, Paul's parents separate and his father moves out of the country. The two never spent much time together, but at this point, their contact becomes extremely limited. It seems like the dad and the families are not in it to win it.

• 30:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So as a teenager, Paul, not surprisingly, has behavioral issues, he bounces from school to school, he has issues with any authority figure, and his signature move was to make himself throw up on the desk in class. I mean, that's aggressive.

• 30:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's wild.

• 30:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:20Karen Kilgariff?

  My cousin Stevie used to hold his breath until he passed out when he didn't get what he wanted.

• 30:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And he would do it all the time.

• 30:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my, why haven't I been using that?

• 30:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, right?

• 30:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good.

• 30:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's pretty, it's a wild one, but that's like intentionally throwing up.

• 30:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That's pretty.

• 30:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's like a, that's a sign.

• 30:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Stevie's thing was more internal. That's like he did it to himself.

• 30:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  But that's, you're doing it to everyone else.

• 30:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 30:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So gross.

• 30:45Georgia Hardstark?

  However, he's still actually popular surprisingly with other students because they like agree with him that this sucks enough to make yourself throw up on, I, I, who knows what the story is there?

• 30:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, maybe they just thought it was cool.

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Despite these major issues, Paul is actually his grandfather, his dick of a grandfather's favorite grandchild, and Jay Paul tells him that repeatedly. And then around this time, Paul's dad Eugene, who left, marries another woman. Her name is Talitha Paul. And she dies tragically young at the age of 31 in 1971, maybe from a heroin overdose, maybe cardiac arrest due to the mixture of alcohol and barbiturates. It's like a little sus fish, a little sus.

• 31:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, and so all this is to say that in 1973, Paul is now 16 years old. He's incredibly privileged. And his life has also been incredibly chaotic. He's a cutie pie. He's got the like long seventies curly hair. What was that like? Um, name some heart throbs from the seventies.

• 31:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Andy Gibb, Leaf Garrett.

• 31:44Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got Leaf Garrett vibes slash, what was the other one who was the sibling, all the siblings?

• 31:49Karen Kilgariff?

  On Eight is Enough?

• 31:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No, in the like their band, their band, they all had a band.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  The Osmonds?

• 31:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Osmonds.

• 31:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Donny.

• 31:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? Donny Osmond?

• 32:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that right?

• 32:00Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the one that had the big teeth and he's, he's Mormon.

• 32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, here, look at his face. He's got Donny Osmond vibes, kind of Leaf, he's got that like cute.

• 32:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. He's cute and he's kind of like, he actually looks like Danny Bonaduce from The Partridge Family. Is that who you were thinking of?

• 32:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Probably all of the above.

• 32:15Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a kind of a mix of all of them.

• 32:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He's like a cute, little cutie pie. He looks like, has a sweet little face.

• 32:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. He looks like the kind of boy that you would pick because you would think he might like, it's not like he's dashing.

• 32:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And he looks like he's gonna be so hot when he's older too, like he has, right?

• 32:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because he has almost like a poetic winsome kind of face.

• 32:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, totally.

• 32:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 32:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't get sad.

• 32:39Karen Kilgariff?

  His mother looks like Julie Christie.

• 32:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, anyway. Oh, no.

• 32:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. His grandpa looks like Monty Burns.

• 32:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Give me a dime.

• 32:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You know who, you know who played him in the movie that came out recently?

• 32:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Donald Sutherland.

• 32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I saw it.

• 32:54Georgia Hardstark?

  But who did, who did Christopher Plummer play?

• 32:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Christopher Plummer. Oh, did Christopher Plummer play it and not Donald Sutherland?

• 33:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I think, yeah, but he looks like Donald Sutherland. But you know, Kevin Spacey was cast originally. And that's the movie that they had to stop and redo because of the allegations against

• 33:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 33:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Kevin Spacey. And so Christopher Plummer took his place.

• 33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's amazing.

• 33:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And got nominated for an Oscar. The movie's called All The Money In The World.

• 33:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay.

• 33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you see that?

• 33:19Karen Kilgariff?

  No, I'm thinking of the, the one they made on FX.

• 33:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And I think that was Donald Sutherland, because I just remember the fucking phone. The phone with the

• 33:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 33:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, he made a normal phone into a payphone.

• 33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. It looks like, he looks like Donald Sutherland.

• 33:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And Christopher Plummer. He's living at this point in an apartment with friends at 16 in Rome, not really going to school, partying with celebrities in fucking Rome, like Jack Nicholson and Faye Dunaway. There's a huge disco scene in Rome, like, take me there. Can you imagine?

• 33:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my, in the 80s?

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  In the 70s, early 70s. So like, every

• 33:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 33:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's, everything is a go.

• 33:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, the people there are so good-looking.

• 34:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Are they? I bet.

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's just like, they just are. It's like, they're like chic and good-looking

• 34:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Karen Kilgariff?

  in the day-to-day.

• 34:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. When he's not out partying, he's mostly, he mostly hangs out in the Piazza Navona.

• 34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you go there?

• 34:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably.

• 34:14Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a popular tourist destination in the center of Rome with this famous fountain.

• 34:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Dude, did I tell you my Trevi Fountain story really quick?

• 34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not Trevi Fountain, but it's, yes.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a different one?

• 34:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a different fountain, but yes, no, you didn't tell me.

• 34:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Just that it was, it was blocked off when we were there because they were redoing everything for the jubilee. And, but people, of course, still went and stood in front of the fence that was in front of it while they were cleaning it. And somebody, somebody near the front tried to throw a coin over the fence so they could still, even though it was like drained and stuff. But they ended up throwing it backwards accidentally and just hitting somebody else. And it was the

• 34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good luck.

• 34:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so funny. It was so hilarious. And the person in the back got so mad where they're like, these fucking tourists, like, there's so many tourists there.

• 35:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I know.

• 35:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It was wild.

• 35:02Georgia Hardstark?

  But how was the Bezos wedding, though?

• 35:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God, I loved it. I loved Kim's outfit.

• 35:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Kim?

• 35:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Kim Kardashian.

• 35:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 35:09Karen Kilgariff?

  She was all over that thing.

• 35:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, we're back. So, um.

• 35:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I did not go to Jeffrey Bezos's wedding.

• 35:15Georgia Hardstark?

  She wasn't even invited.

• 35:17Karen Kilgariff?

  She, he is not talking to me anymore.

• 35:19Georgia Hardstark?

  She gotta save the date and then no invite. Like, how rude is that?

• 35:23Karen Kilgariff?

  They changed their mind.

• 35:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Uh, so Paul has some walking around money from his mother, but since he's not yet an adult, he doesn't have access to the family's fortune. I'm sure he does fine.

• 35:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Georgia Hardstark?

  He sometimes sells paintings for money. Uh, but that said, everyone in Rome knows that Paul is a Getty. You know, his name gets him into clubs and parties, and unfortunately, it also winds up getting him kidnapped.

• 35:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 35:44Georgia Hardstark?

  In the very early morning hours of July 10th in 1973, 16-year-old Paul has been out partying, and now he's wandering the streets of Rome, as you did when you were young.

• 35:55Karen Kilgariff?

  What a place to wander around drunk and high.

• 35:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And like, the lights coming up, it's so beautiful.

• 36:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's an, it's an unbelievable city.

• 36:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You've had a couple Aperol spritzes.

• 36:05Karen Kilgariff?

  You, get out there.

• 36:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And some Coke.

• 36:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Get some Coke and just a general, like, totally unrealistic life up until that point.

• 36:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm 16 and everything's ahead of me.

• 36:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And everyone kind of likes me because even if they can't get something from me in that moment, maybe later.

• 36:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Do, do, do. And then he gets hit over the back of the head.

• 36:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So is he walking by himself?

• 36:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds like he's by himself. He stops at a newsstand to get a magazine and a Mickey Mouse comic book, which is like, oh, he's a baby. He is at least drunk, if not more. And so a white car pulls up with four guys in it. They jump out and they hit him on the back of the head with their pistol butts. And then put a cloth over his face, and he thinks it has chloroform on it because he passes out.

• 36:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He wakes up sometime later in the moving car. He's blindfolded, and the back of his head is bleeding, and his wrists and ankles are tied together. The kidnappers drive Paul for about six hours, and there was no air conditioning in bed either.

• 37:01Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no way.

• 37:02Georgia Hardstark?

  When they stop, they carry Paul out of the car. He gets the sense, he later says, that he's in the mountain area because of the wind. And he worries the kidnappers are gonna throw him off a cliff, but instead they lie him down on a blanket on the ground. So he doesn't know it's for ransom yet. He's just like, I've just been kidnapped. Every few days, the kidnappers move Paul to a new location. They feel mostly outdoors to Paul. He remains blindfolded, but sometimes he could tell he's like in a little hut or something. After what feels like a few days, the kidnappers bring him a pen and paper and ask for his grandfather's address.

• 37:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they want to send him a ransom letter.

• 37:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 37:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And Paul has to write it and he like considers like trying to write in code, trying to get like just somehow a message across and he's probably starving and hurt and he's like, I can't even think of how I would do that.

• 37:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 37:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So he just writes the letter.

• 37:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's how I would do it.

• 37:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Dear grandpa.

• 37:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:57Karen Kilgariff?

  You've always been so generous to me. I know that this won't be a big deal to you because I know how much you don't care about money.

• 38:04Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not him. It's not him. And they wouldn't know it's him. Yeah.

• 38:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Be like, something's terribly wrong.

• 38:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Wrong. That's a good point. So that he does that and now Paul knows that it's definitely a ransom kidnapping and he, he knows that his grandpa is tight fisted. So he, he is like, I'm screwed. Yeah. He's not like, oh, good. I'll, maybe I'll survive this. He's like, shit.

• 38:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm living in this hut from now on.

• 38:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Paul has been kidnapped by a group called the, the Undrangetti, a mafia syndicate that operates out of Calabria, which is all the way in the south of Italy. It's the toe of the boot. And in the 1970s, it's still a very poor area and very much run by the mafia. At first, people think that there's evidence that he like helped with the kidnapping to get some money himself.

• 38:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause he's 16 years old. He lives by himself on Rome. He doesn't have a ton of money to his name. But it's quickly shown that he has nothing to do with the plot.

• 38:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He knows.

• 38:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  That's not the way to do it.

• 38:58Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not getting ransom money and I wouldn't get any of the ransom money that you guys got. So he has nothing to do with it. Okay. So then on July 18th, a ransom letter arrives, one to Gail, the mother, and one to Jay Palgetti, the grandpa. Gail's letter says, quote, "Dear mummy, I have fallen into the hands of kidnappers. Don't let me be killed. Arrange things so that the police don't intervene. You must absolutely not take this thing as a joke. Try and get in contact with the kidnappers in the manner and the way they tell you. Don't let the public know about the negotiations if you don't want me killed." He's like, please don't take this as a joke.

• 39:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 39:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And no, this isn't just me running away. Like, I know I've done shitty things and like weird stuff in the past and I party all night, but this is not that.

• 39:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to get all of that said in one letter of like, okay, we don't hang up.

• 39:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:44Karen Kilgariff?

  But as in a letter.

• 39:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, exactly.

• 39:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrible.

• 39:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to live and to be free again. Don't publicize my kidnapping. Pay, I beg you. Pay as soon as possible if you wish me well. This is all you have to know. If you delay, it is very dangerous for me. I love you, Paul. End quote. And to his grandpa, he simply says, quote, "I know we haven't been very close, but I hope you know that I love you. Please do whatever you can to get me out of here. This is serious. Love, Paul." That's kind of like all he can.

• 40:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he doesn't, he knows the other way won't work.

• 40:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Despite Paul's warnings not to publicize the kidnapping, the news gets out and J. Paul Getty releases a statement to the press saying he doesn't plan to pay any ransom. And now, let's play devil's advocate. He says, quote, "Although I see my grandson infrequently and I'm not particularly close to him..." Didn't need to say that. That didn't need to be.

• 40:35Karen Kilgariff?

  No connections.

• 40:36Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 40:36Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Don't care.

• 40:37Georgia Hardstark?

  "I love him nonetheless." Like, just say you love him. You don't have to, okay. "However, I don't believe in paying kidnappers. I have 14 other grandchildren and if I pay one penny now, then I'll have 14 kidnapped grandchildren."

• 40:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 40:50Georgia Hardstark?

  End quote. Which is, yeah. Don't negotiate with terrorists. Like, that makes sense.

• 40:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it does. It completely does.

• 40:58Georgia Hardstark?

  But you're still, you're still in a hard place.

• 41:00Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, the way he's lived the rest of his life makes no sense. So it's like, suddenly he's making all kinds of sense where it's like.

• 41:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 41:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Cough up the fucking brain cancer money. Would you please?

• 41:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 41:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, what are you doing?

• 41:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Brain cancer was holding your kid ransom before and you didn't care.

• 41:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Ouch.

• 41:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:17Karen Kilgariff?

  So, I suggested that, but then you put it in the perfect statement.

• 41:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So now it's.

• 41:22Georgia Hardstark?

  You were being subtle.

• 41:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You're being mean, not me. Just kidding. Don't be mean to J. Paul Getty.

• 41:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll never be allowed in the Getty again.

• 41:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 41:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm like on the banned list. Fine, I don't like museums.

• 41:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Your picture's right there in the ticket booth.

• 41:34Georgia Hardstark?

  My painting is right there in.

• 41:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you say I don't like museums anyway?

• 41:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I was kidding. Gail, the mom instructs the kidnappers to speak with the family lawyer and they have the rest of the correspondence with him. They tell the lawyer that they want 10 billion lira, which is about 17 million dollars. You want to guess what that is in today's money?

• 41:52Karen Kilgariff?

  17 million dollars, 10 billion lira would in today's money be 30 billion lira, which would be roughly around, um, well, you said no already.

• 42:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no, I thought you were saying 30, no.

• 42:04Karen Kilgariff?

  25?

• 42:05Georgia Hardstark?

  122 million.

• 42:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 42:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So they went, they went high.

• 42:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they did.

• 42:09Georgia Hardstark?

  The kidnappers go back and forth negotiating with the lawyer for weeks, negotiating for this person's life, turns into months. And meanwhile, the Italian police have basically dismissed the whole thing, saying it's either a hoax or that Paul himself orchestrated the kidnapping. So no one's taking it seriously.

• 42:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Again, that thing the police do where they're like, no work for us here. Cause we've theorized that there is no work for us here.

• 42:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I bet? That's what they said. I bet it's this.

• 42:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet it's not real.

• 42:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. While this is going on, Paul's kidnappers continue to move him around. He's got to be so fucking bummed at this point. Eventually, they march him for eight hours up a high mountain to a cave and he thinks later that it's an abandoned Nazi bunker. So he's not anywhere comfortable. In October of 1973, okay, this is when it gets serious for him. They say that they're going to give him a haircut and he is like, oh no.

• 42:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 42:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Thinking they're about to slice off one of his fingers. But they do give him a haircut and then they pour alcohol all over one side of his head and they cut off his ear. And you can see it in the photos later, like ear is gone, not a tip of the ear. They cut off his entire ear, which is so just sad. He's in excruciating pain. He paves in and out over the next couple of days.

• 43:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, can you imagine? Can you, you like, I cut my finger so often when I feed my damn dogs. Cause I do that like dog roll or whatever that I'm always cutting up.

• 43:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm like, you walk around with that for a couple of days, it's like, uh huh. This is so awful. It's your whole ear.

• 43:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Your whole ear and you're in the mountains. And so the only painkiller he really has is alcohol. It seems like they give him a lot of alcohol.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's at least he has a, I mean, but then the hangovers. Also, he can never sleep on that side.

• 43:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah, it's just like the pain. The captors seal the ear in a plastic envelope with a lock of his hair, so they did cut his hair for a reason, and a letter threatening to further mutilate Paul if the negotiations keep dragging on. They mail it to an Italian newspaper because they're like, maybe they're the only ones who will give a shit, which is smart. But here's the problem, this is so sad, there's a postal strike going on.

• 44:11Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 44:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so the ear takes three weeks to arrive at its destination. Like, what bad luck.

• 44:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's horrible.

• 44:18Georgia Hardstark?

  For him.

• 44:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible.

• 44:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? It's just like, it's just like a shitty thing.

• 44:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, just like, why can't they just place him somewhere, I mean,

• 44:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:27Karen Kilgariff?

  out in the countryside or whatever, just like, moving him around and always keeping him, like, in a cave or somewhere exposed.

• 44:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Go drop that letter off at the, yeah, there's no, there's no CCTV at the time, like, just throw that letter somewhere and don't mail it.

• 44:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Put it in a basement.

• 44:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And once it does get there, in mid-November, the reporters contact the Getty family and the police, though the police still think the kidnapping is a hoax.

• 44:51Karen Kilgariff?

  They're holding on.

• 44:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm. Paul's mom, Gail, doesn't have access to that kind of money herself, you know, of course. But at this point, Paul's father, Eugene, J. Paul Getty the Second, finally gets in touch. He's not in Italy, and he doesn't want to come back to Italy because he's wanted for questioning in his second wife's death. Remember, she died of a possible drug overdose?

• 45:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:10Georgia Hardstark?

  There's not really evidence he has anything to do with the death, but it does seem fair to say that he doesn't want to deal with the Italian police. So Eugene says he's willing to pay a reduced ransom for his son of 1 million, which is about 10 million in today's money, but tries to simultaneously negotiate with his ex-wife, Gail, for custody of their children if he pays it. So he turns this into a thing about, about himself.

• 45:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, of course. Like, he has to get something out of...

• 45:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, "I'll do it, but, I'll save your son," but the kidnappers reject the offer, saying they want 2.9 million, which is more than 20 million in today's money. They're like, "You're negotiating for your child."

• 45:50Georgia Hardstark?

  His ear's gone.

• 45:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like my family would like get us some sort of a chili cook off together and raise money. You know what I mean? Like this idea that he has to keep passing it from relative to relative. You'd like to think.

• 46:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you wonder though, like if they saw the ear, if they'd know it was his ear? Like, would you be able to like pick, pick your own ear out of a lineup? I don't know if I could.

• 46:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I could, I just have, I have big ears.

• 46:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 46:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So I think I'd be able to be like, oh.

• 46:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think they were, think it was like a big Lipowski little toe situation? Or like this could be anyone's little toe?

• 46:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's very true.

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 46:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You should have done something more recognizable.

• 46:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, an ear is tough, although they say that they can use them to identify people like in aging and stuff like that.

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true. Yeah. Okay.

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But not separate from the head.

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 46:36Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I don't know what people can do.

• 46:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Let us know. Forensic, uh, people who are in.

• 46:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Please write in.

• 46:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Please let us know. So they want 2.9 million. It's only at this point that the family patriarch, J. Paul Getty, the OG, the world's richest man, says he'll pay. But he actually only pays 2.2 million, just as this is like a final fuck you. I'll pay it, but I'm only paying 2.2 million because that's the maximum amount that's tax deductible. What in the actual fuck?

• 47:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, these people.

• 47:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, right?

• 47:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's, he's also like, and I'm minus every time I had to make a phone call about this.

• 47:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's, that's over a hundred dimes.

• 47:15Georgia Hardstark?

  He pays 2.2, but to get to that 2.9, which they still want, he then gives the rest of the amount to his son to pay that part of it, so he doesn't have to pay taxes on it. But he gives it to him as a loan with interest.

• 47:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Good lord. I mean, that's like.

• 47:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Diabolical. And also like it's mental illness at that point. You just can't not track money.

• 47:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:40Georgia Hardstark?

  All while the Italian media is running photos of his teenage grandson's severed ear. So I think people were probably like, felt pretty bad for Paul.

• 47:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it was actually the kidnapper's best move was to just send that ear to the press.

• 47:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Or just like.

• 47:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right. The Getty family hires an ex CIA officer to handle the exchange and in December, he leaves packages of money along the side of the road in Calabria. The captors tell Paul that they've received the money, but they have to wait until the next day, Monday, to release him because there's a gas shortage in Italy and no one is allowed to drive anywhere on Sundays. Like dude.

• 48:14Karen Kilgariff?

  What is happening?

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 48:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a bad time in Italy.

• 48:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Thankfully, the next day, the captors blindfold Paul, bring him to a car, drive him to a remote location and leave him on the side of the road to be picked up eventually. And I don't know how long that is. The local police find him.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 48:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Poor dude. Paul arrives in Rome to a huge amount of attention from the press and from bystanders. He's mobbed at the police station. Eventually, his mother takes him to a private clinic to recover. And then he goes to the Alps to rest and rebuild his muscles by skiing, which is like, that sounds nice.

• 48:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you can also do that in physical therapy.

• 48:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 48:51Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, that's, yeah.

• 48:52Georgia Hardstark?

  The Italian police ultimately arrest nine people for the kidnapping, but only two are ever convicted. Most of the ransom money is never recovered.

• 48:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 48:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Karen Kilgariff?

  So they kind of got away with it.

• 49:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Some people got away with it.

• 49:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 49:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Gayle, the mom, suggests that Paul calls his grandfather to thank him for paying the ransom, but Jay Paul Getty doesn't come to the phone. Yeah, to say, you're welcome for the ransom, my grandson. The Getty patriarch dies about a year after his grandson's kidnapping. And everyone said, good riddance.

• 49:21Karen Kilgariff?

  With a roll of dimes clutched to his chest. I mean.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't let it go because phones, phone calls used to be really cheap.

• 49:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So crazy.

• 49:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to me like harboring the local only thing. Like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

• 49:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It was really expensive, long distance.

• 49:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I wish I had like a really happy ending to this. We all want him to like go on to a happy life of charity and giving and everything, but unfortunately, he doesn't. He grows up, gets married, moves to New York, has a son, the actor Balthazar Getty. He's not surprisingly forever traumatized by his kidnapping.

• 49:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course.

• 49:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And will always struggle. He struggles with substance abuse and alcohol abuse. He's just not, there's no therapy for him, I'm sure. It's just, he's, like, not just the kidnapping, but that your family wouldn't pay it.

• 50:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It's this idea of like your value.

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  There's nobody for you.

• 50:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Your value, yeah. No one's on your side. No one's gonna fight like hell. No one's gonna do anything. It sucks.

• 50:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And in 1981, when he's only 25, he suffers an overdose and this causes him to have a stroke, which leaves him paralyzed and unable to speak for the rest of his life. And he's in a wheelchair. It's so heartbreaking. There's photos of him and it's just like, you try to see the man he could have been.

• 50:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's just, he never had a chance.

• 50:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 50:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Paul's mother, Gail, cares for him full-time after that. And in 2011, he dies at the age of 54.

• 50:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 50:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And that is the sad story of the kidnapping of John Paul Getty III.

• 50:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That sucks.

• 50:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry.

• 50:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, dang.

• 50:59Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just tragic.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I'll be honest, when I was watching the FX series.

• 51:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Trust.

• 51:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Trust.

• 51:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I want to watch it now.

• 51:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's great.

• 51:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And of course, like, it's really well done, but I stopped watching, because I think it was a mini-series if I'm not mistaken. So like, if that is the case, then after three episodes, I was like, I just don't, the people that played the Italian kidnappers were hot, hot, hot.

• 51:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 51:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And wearing like 70s, like, a leather jacket with like a big V, very disco hot.

• 51:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So that was fun.

• 51:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh, I want to watch it.

• 51:31Karen Kilgariff?

  But then after a while, you're just like, oh yeah, this sucks. And this is kind of this human condition where we get this idea of like, if I have X, it'll make me happy.

• 51:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, we know that because like, many people have been broke and that there's nothing worse than when you're stressing about.

• 51:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 51:46Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the worst and you're trapped.

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes time off of your life, the stress of.

• 51:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's horrible.

• 51:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Being broke.

• 51:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And it makes you desperate and all those things. But it's like, but there's a desperation to being on that other side, which is.

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's hard to empathize with, but, you know, this is what we do as people.

• 52:01Karen Kilgariff?

  But I just think it's really important that we care for the billionaires. At a time like this in America.

• 52:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Try to understand the billionaires' point of view.

• 52:09Karen Kilgariff?

  They're sad.

• 52:10Georgia Hardstark?

  They have so much art. That's all they have.

• 52:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, we're joking, clearly.

• 52:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Please don't add us.

• 52:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Please don't take anything we say too hard.

• 52:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you have something happier?

• 52:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I do.

• 52:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 52:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you ready to turn it around?

• 52:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Please.

• 52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.

• 52:38Georgia Hardstark?

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.

• 52:44Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 52:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 52:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 53:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Watch the Hulu original series Phony.

• 53:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 53:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 53:11Karen Kilgariff?

  We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 53:15Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 53:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 53:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 53:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 53:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 53:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 53:48Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 53:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 54:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 54:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 54:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services. Must be 18 years or older.

• 54:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 54:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.

• 54:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S O L A C E health.com slash murder.

• 54:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 54:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 54:27Georgia Hardstark?

  With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date, all in one search.

• 54:33Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 54:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.

• 54:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 54:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 54:51Karen Kilgariff?

  This one's light and fun.

• 54:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 54:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And I have to put my sweater back on.

• 54:54Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 54:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm 55.

• 54:56Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so hot in here right now. I don't know what.

• 54:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I got cold.

• 54:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sweating.

• 55:00Karen Kilgariff?

  This is all I do all night long.

• 55:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Back and forth, back and forth.

• 55:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'm just like, get away from me. Hold on a second. I'm, okay. Okay.

• 55:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I also found out that when you're on SSRIs, as I am, it makes you intolerant to temperature changes, especially heat.

• 55:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so now you're like extra sensitive?

• 55:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So when I'm at a party, I'm like, it's hot, right? It's hot, right? It's like.

• 55:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Boiling.

• 55:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not. Yeah, just me. Okay.

• 55:23Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not alone. It's hot to other people, too.

• 55:26Georgia Hardstark?

  It's hot to other people with depression, too.

• 55:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Other people, menopause, depression.

• 55:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Menopause and depression.

• 55:31Karen Kilgariff?

  A lot of us with random heat syndrome, where you're just hot, hot for no reason.

• 55:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 55:37Karen Kilgariff?

  People who run hot. Okay, so my story today takes place in Franklin County, Kentucky, which is home to the state capitol. And what's the capitol of Kentucky?

• 55:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Louisville.

• 55:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Frankfurt.

• 55:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn it. Oh, my God. I was, I wrote.

• 55:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, Frankfurt. No matter what you were gonna say, I was gonna pretend you said Frankfurt.

• 56:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, man.

• 56:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You really believed you, you had it right.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I was so excited. Oh, that's embarrassing.

• 56:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so sorry.

• 56:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Now Franklin is gonna be mad at me and Louisville is gonna be mad at me.

• 56:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Everyone, it doesn't matter. Everyone's always mad at us. It doesn't matter. Now we have to go there on tour. Now we- We have to add a date. Here we come, Frankfurt. Here we come. Franklin County, here we come. That's what I meant. I said Frankfurt. Frankfurt is the city and Franklin County is the area. All of it, sorry. And we're probably pronouncing it wrong also because it's Frank Fort, which I'm sure- Right. It's actually Fort. The Fort is silent, isn't silent? It sounds like Appalachia. Okay. Give us an, what is it called? Pneumonic aid and we will remember. Always. So this part of Kentucky, this part of Kentucky tends to be pretty quiet. The population of Franklin County is around 50,000 for everybody. That means- For everybody. For everybody.

• 56:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That means every resident of Franklin County can fit in Dodger Stadium. Wow, shut up. So it's small. That's crazy. People-wise. So when Franklin County made headlines in October of 2013, the people who lived there could not believe it because it wasn't just the local paper or the local news station that was reporting. The case that was being talked about was on the national news and then it went international. Uh-oh. But it wasn't the kind of case that normally gets that level of press. You could say it's actually a very Kentucky crime. Dozens of cases of bourbon had gone missing from one of the state's most well-known distilleries, a distillery called Buffalo Trace, which is based right there in Franklin County. It's good shit. Right? That's what's in this cup right here.

• 57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just all bourbon. Just like- A glass of warm bourbon. It's seven fingers of bourbon in Georgia's travel mug. So, you know, bourbon going missing normally would not ignite a media frenzy. But it was no ordinary bourbon. It was a very rare whiskey with a cult following. A single bottle could sell for thousands of dollars on the black market. It was called Pappy Van Winkle. Oh. You heard of this? I don't think I've heard of this, but I know Pappy Van Winkle, no. You do? I don't think I know this. Oh, for sure. I like bourbon. So this is the story of the Pappy Gate heist. And the man who'd find himself at the center of it all, and his name is Toby Kurtzinger. Wow, I don't know this.

• 58:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so the sources that Maren used for the story today are reporting by the Lexington Herald Ledger. There's a magazine called Garden and Gun, and that's real. Wow. There is an article in it by a journalist named Guy Martin entitled What Netflix Gets Right and Wrong About Pappy Gate. So it's like the definitive, like, locals knowing the story. Which is so the coastal elite, it's crazy. Yeah, for Garden and Gun. Yeah. I mean, hey, we have gardens and guns out here in California. We've got both. We've got both, but we don't think we have a lot of magazines about it. And then, of course, two episodes of the Netflix series Heist that feature this story. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So this all begins in 1988 because that's the year that a young man in his late teens named Toby Kurtzinger is hired by the Buffalo Trace Distillery. So Toby starts out working in the warehouse, and then over the next two decades, he basically moves around to different departments at the distillery. He works in shipping, then he works on the loading docks. So he has a very good understanding of how this distillery works. And on that Netflix show Heist, Toby explains firsthand that when he first starts working at Buffalo Trace, he isn't a big whiskey guy himself, but it is part of the workplace culture, as you could imagine. Everybody drinks, he picks up the habit quickly.

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And according to Toby, everybody who works there also dips into the distillery's bourbon supply. It's not unusual for employees to head home with a bottle or two or three. Sure. And it's mostly tolerated and probably actually even expected. It's probably great business. Yeah. And it's like, you put that up in your cabinet and you pour it to your friends when they come over, and then that's just more business. Totally. So basically, a little missing inventory here and there does not draw much attention. And again, everyone is drunk, so who's to say? Just kidding, I put that in. So outside of work, Toby's world revolves around the local adult softball league.

• 1:00:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, he and his teammates are a tight knit group and they take the game very, very seriously. As men love to do with casual sports outings. Um, they actually go start lifting weights at the local gym together. Uh, they're always trying to get bigger and stronger and more intimidating on the field. Hit that ball harder? I don't know. Yeah. Toby even starts taking steroids. First fucking softball? Yes. Friend. I mean, cause winning is everything. Sure. And softball is everything. I told you about the year I played entertainment intermural softball when I was on speed. No. In the nineties. Anyone cool, anyone cool on the team? On our team? Yeah, that you can brag about. Mr. Shows, John Ennis. Oh. Mr. Shows, David Cross.

• 1:01:08Karen Kilgariff?

  There you go. There was a lot of good people. I had one game where I was so high and I was so good at this game that people applauded for me at the end of the game. Holy shit. And I was just like, oh no, I'm just going faster than everybody else. I'm just like, I can see it. Your brain works, yeah. Just trajectories and shit make total sense to Karen Kilgariff. I am into doping for sports. I think it works. It works. It works if you work it. Yeah. So he's now beefed up. Okay. And great at softball. Good for him. And of course, he meets a woman at the gym named Julie. Sparks fly. They get married in 2001 when Toby is around 30 years old. And they quickly have two children together. And Toby loves his family, but he does have trouble adjusting to marriage, like the responsibilities

• 1:01:52Karen Kilgariff?

  of marriage and fatherhood. He still is spending all his time playing softball, his passion. Okay. And of course, working out. So that means his wife Julie, who is a very busy real estate agent, has to pick up all the slack. No, no. So she is forced to give Toby the ultimatum, his family or softball. Like, that's just not something you picture in your like 10 year plan of life as like fighting with your husband about softball. No. You know? But I, it makes sense that like, I think if you... You didn't play sports in high school. I didn't. I did drugs in high school, so I but I played sports before. I played soccer before, pretty like aggressively. Okay. Yeah. And you were very good at kickball afterwards in the in the 2000s when kickball was fun.

• 1:02:37Karen Kilgariff?

  In rehab. Oh, yeah. I played kickball in rehab. No, I got really good at table tennis because. But I mean, I think that's that thing where like, I remember, I wasn't even that good at softball, but when I left high school, I would have dreams about playing it all the time because it was just this kind of ritualistic, this is how I spend my time. Yeah, I'm not making fun. Like, everyone should have their hobby, but when it gets in the way of your family, then it's like. Yeah. You gotta. You gotta come on. Yeah. And also, women don't get the choice. Right. Which is the thing I think, you know, people are starting to realize now of like, yeah, you do just get to go play softball. Yeah, you pick. There is slack, and you're not picking it up. Yeah. Bro. Pick it up. So, he picks family over softball. Sure. He's a decent human being. Okay. But there is genuine grief over having to quit the team. Oh, he has to quit.

• 1:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because she's like, you gotta come home at night. Yeah. Yeah. So now we fast forward to a night in 2008. Toby invites one of his old softball friends over. He never names this person, but in their hang, in his man cave, just kidding, I put that I added that in, he decides to pull out his special bottle of 20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle for them to drink. Okay. Pappy Van Winkle, by 2008, is worth around $1,000 a bottle. I had no idea. Yeah. And it's worth more on the black market. Yeah. So this is the stuff, it's because it's aged for 20 years and all that, whatever. It's very specialty. Yeah. And so, of course, he wants to treat his friend, and it's their special night and fun times. Yeah. And also, here's why 20-year Pappy is so expensive, because since its debut in

• 1:04:05Karen Kilgariff?

  1994, this bourbon has been recommended, heralded, and celebrated by everyone, from casual drinkers and bartenders to whiskey experts and celebrities.

• 1:04:16Karen Kilgariff?

  The most important one being Anthony Bourdain.

• 1:04:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit.

• 1:04:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's like his favorite.

• 1:04:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Connoisseur.

• 1:04:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:04:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Oh yeah. He talked about it a lot. I fucking can hear Anthony Bourdain saying.

• 1:04:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Writer Paul Walker reports for New York Magazine, quote, "20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle has become the most covetable whiskey on the planet. Its defining characteristics are an unusual sweetness and an uncannily long, complex finish that's described as having the flavors of everything from cigar boxes to coconut to dried tangerine."

• 1:04:48Georgia Hardstark?

  We gotta ask Paul Holes about that. He's a connoisseur too.

• 1:04:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I wonder if he's tried it.

• 1:04:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Call him on the hot dog phone. Wouldn't that be amazing?

• 1:04:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:56Karen Kilgariff?

  If you pick up the phone, any host-

• 1:04:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Just go straight to Paul Holes. Oh, any host, yeah.

• 1:05:01Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you're right.

• 1:05:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I just want Paul Holes.

• 1:05:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Straight to Paul Holes. Ask him a question. Hey, is it illegal to- And he has to pick it up.

• 1:05:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:05:08Karen Kilgariff?

  There by his fish tank in his office where he records all his hot dogs.

• 1:05:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so over the last three decades, the hype around Pappy Van Winkle has snowballed so much that Buffalo Trace, which has a very long, very specific distilling process for this particular bourbon, just can't keep up with demand. They're only able to produce about 7,012 bottle cases a year.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:05:32Karen Kilgariff?

  So for example, Jack Daniels produces more than 10 million cases of black label whiskey every year.

• 1:05:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Seven, how'd you say it, 700?

• 1:05:40Karen Kilgariff?

  7,000.

• 1:05:41Georgia Hardstark?

  7,000, okay.

• 1:05:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh wow, okay, yeah.

• 1:05:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So a Thrillist article describes 20-year Pappy as, quote, "The sort of thing that millionaires will fight each other for."

• 1:05:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Guys.

• 1:05:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys.

• 1:05:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Guys.

• 1:05:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You're softball and fucking thousand-dollar whiskey?

• 1:05:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, just come on. And listen, my husband's into professional wrestling, like, a lot, so I shouldn't be judging other people's hobbies.

• 1:06:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I love any British film that involves Jane Austen in any way, shape, or form.

• 1:06:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what yours is?

• 1:06:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:09Georgia Hardstark?

  What's mine? Cats. Just fucking cats.

• 1:06:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Cats, cats, cats.

• 1:06:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I would have all the cats.

• 1:06:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Hardcore cats. And vintage.

• 1:06:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:06:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. I also like to swim and read. Um-

• 1:06:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so it's obviously a big treat when Toby pulls this bottle out to share it with his softball friend. It seems possible that his friend has never even seen a bottle of 20 Year Pappy before. Because you cannot find it on liquor store shelves. And the lucky shops that do get it in only have a few bottles like a year. Then they have to decide, the liquor store has to decide how to sell it. So some stores have years-long waiting lists for it. Holy shit. Other ones raffle them off, like have it random drawn to see if they get their Pappy. I had no idea. Yeah, you might be able to find a restaurant or a bar that has it on the menu. But a single shot of 20 Year Pappy will likely cost you at least? $250. $100. Damn it.

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I just realized as you were guessing, I was like, this is probably anticlimactic. That's what I was thinking with the other one. I was like, don't guess. You shouldn't guess. It's not that fun. Yeah, okay, $100 for a shot, though. That's ridiculous. So when Toby brings out the Pappy to impress his guest, it works. His friend is so excited to be getting to drink it. He even asked Toby if he can buy the rest of the bottle they're drinking right then and there. Toby does his friend one better. He pulls out two more bottles of 20 Year Pappy and he offers them up like you can buy these from me. Oh shit. And the friend happily takes the bourbon and returns the next day with a bunch of cash for Toby and a request for more.

• 1:07:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And in Toby's mind, it's easy money. He has easy access to this very expensive bourbon. He's never gotten in trouble for taking anything before from work. And he genuinely doesn't think anyone will leave a notice if a couple more bottles go missing. So Toby figures he's just gonna steal one or two more 20 Year Pappies to sell to this friend. They weren't locking them up or anything? No, in fact, they talk about it. They had a very antiquated, like, security system in general. It was all very lax and casual. They didn't have video cameras. The, I'll talk about it later, but the, the place where they did hold it, the hinge was broken, so you could just like open the door anyway.

• 1:08:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's reminding me of the great maple syrup heist story, where it's just like.

• 1:08:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just like that.

• 1:08:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So Toby's taking it very casually. He's like, oh, this will be fine. But of course, when that cash starts rolling in, because it is so valuable, things quickly get out of hand. Toby starts showing up at local poker nights with a stolen bottle of 20-year Pappy, knowing that there will be doctors, lawyers, judges, and politicians there, the kind of people who want and can afford the price of the Pappy. It sort of becomes a promotional ploy, him showing up with that bottle and basically alerting the wealthy around town that he can be their Pappy hookup. And it works. Everyone wants Toby to get them a bottle of 20-year Pappy, and he promises that he can.

• 1:09:16Karen Kilgariff?

  He says, quote, "You got people going, hey, I'll give you this for a bottle, and what they're offering is twice what you make in two weeks, and it's tax-free."

• 1:09:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And you know, I feel like it's like that broken window syndrome, or whatever it's called, where it's like, it's not locked up, so he is assuming it's not as valuable to them as it would be. He's not breaking any, he's not breaking into anything. He's just walking in, so they must not care about it that much.

• 1:09:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:09:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:09:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's just, it's very easy to rationalize. I think that's like why religion was started, because if people are left to their own devices, they're just like, it's all about, you know? Like, that's a, we've told the story many times. Like, one of my first jobs, I worked at a cafe, and I was like, "I deserve to take $20 out of the till at night, so I can buy beer."

• 1:10:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, I did it twice.

• 1:10:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And then the manager's like, "I think the janitor's stealing." And I was like, huh, yeah. That's when, when the rationalization meets the road.

• 1:10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Thankfully, you had that insight, at least.

• 1:10:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And I had home Jim on the phone, who was like, there's some people, he said it like almost out of the blue one day, and he's like, "You know, there's some people, they just can't keep their hands out of the till." And then I was like, I'm not those people.

• 1:10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's me.

• 1:10:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good, that. He knew.

• 1:10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He, he could tell. So Toby's starting price for one bottle? $750. And it's normally like a thousand. It's, he's basically like friends and family, I guess. Smart. But if you go and, I, Maren keeps using the term black market. Yeah. But I think it's like any, it's so hard to get that you would probably end up having to pay this much. Right, right. So he's kind of like, I'm your guy that can get it for you for this. Yeah. But he's fulfilling these orders by simply stealing bottles from work as needed. Jesus. And as I said, the cage where Buffalo Trace keeps the Pappy has a broken hinge, so Toby walks in and out and takes it anytime he wants to. No one's looking. He can take as much as he wants.

• 1:11:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So this sales plan obviously is not sustainable. And basically, very quickly, he can't meet his own demand. He's kind of like worked it around and been like the big man at the party with the 20-year Pappy, but he can't actually get it done, so he enlists some help. One of his first recruits is a friend at work who's a new father, and Toby figures he can use some cash. This coworker comes up with a very straightforward plan. They can steal the 20-year Pappy that's currently staged in one of the distillery's display cases. So basically, there's a bunch of bottles of it just sitting somewhere like for show for people that are going to be at the distillery. Right, it's like five layers deep and you just take the fifth layer? Just like the maple syrup heist. Yeah.

• 1:11:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So the men simply walk up, open the glass case, take the Pappy out, rearrange the rest of the bottles to hide the gap. That time, they take four bottles of 20-year Pappy, which Toby sells to a local doctor for $4,000. Holy shit, no discount there, I guess. No, no. It's a doctor. Charge him an arm and a leg. He and his coworker split that money. And then word spreads around the distillery that Toby is the go-to guy for moving stolen bourbon. So a few more coworkers take note. One Buffalo Trace employee from the warehouse pilfers around 80 cases of anything he can get his hands on. What? Not even Pappy Van Winkle, just a bunch of other Buffalo Trace products, and dumps them on Toby's doorstep. 80 cases? Yes.

• 1:12:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's too many. It's not for Toby, though. He is able to sell the stolen liquor to two different buyers while no one at Buffalo Trace notices that anything is gone. Shit, dude. It's all so good faith. It's like, you know, like a small-time distillery that's like, "We've always treated our employees like family." And it's like, "That's your mistake." So Toby says this in the Netflix series Heist. He says, quote, "I was the kind of guy that you knew could get stuff. I was kind of like a mini Amazon. And if you got to talking to me and we became friends and you said, hey, man, can you help me get this? I'd help you get it. Boom. Helping you get something released, a small endorphin that made me feel good." Sure. So does stealing. Yeah.

• 1:13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And so does softball. So Toby eventually pulls a few old softball buddies into this scheme, some as accomplices and others as buyers. One guy works as a truck driver for another Kentucky-based distillery, a bigger one called Wild Turkey. Uh oh. This friend mentioned having access to entire barrels of Wild Turkey bourbon, and those barrels hold around 50 gallons of liquor each. So Toby winds up moving several barrels himself. Basically, his friend from Wild Turkey pulls his delivery truck over on the road and Toby pulls up behind him and they just put the barrels into the back of Toby's truck and Toby drives it home and hides it in his shed on his property. What are you gonna do with a barrel?

• 1:14:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Sell it. The whole thing? Sell it to all these people that want this. But how do you bottle it even? I don't know. They're like, come and you have to put your head under the barrel? Yeah. You get three turns. Yeah, well, hold your legs up over your head. It's a great way to get people to party with you in your shed. Definitely. So depending on the product, Toby will sell these for between $1,000 and $1,500, a fraction of what they're worth at the distillery. So each barrel is valued at between $3,000 and $6,000, depending on the content. Wow. So he's moving like a bunch of liquor. Yeah. Again, no one at Wild Turkey realizes their barrels have gone missing. That's because it's such a massive, you know, a business.

• 1:14:56Karen Kilgariff?

  At one point, Toby and his accomplices make off with a barrel of Buffalo Trace's high-end bourbon called Eagle Rare, and Toby sells it to a woman. Who tells him that she's looking for a special Christmas gift for her husband? We don't know how much Toby got for the Eagle Rare, but we do know that a barrel of it has a retail value of more than $10,000. Holy shit. Yeah. And that also, I have the same question, which is, is he selling, does this lady roll in a barrel of bourbon for her husband? And it's like, da, da, da, da. I think so. I mean, like- He tapped that shit, right? It's kind of fun. Yeah. And then you can wear it afterwards. Can go down a waterfall in it. Yeah. Okay, so by the 2010s, Toby is now in his 40s.

• 1:15:40Karen Kilgariff?

  He's been reselling stolen bourbon in a pretty messy ring, made up of his friends and colleagues for years. But the side hustle does help him support his family. It's also given him a way to reconnect to his old softball buddies that he missed so much. Then, in the fall of 2013, someone working at Buffalo Trace Distillery notices something shocking. They're missing 65 cases of 20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle, which is around 200 bottles of it, which would be worth $25,000. On the black market, it could be worth as much as $100,000. Holy shit. So for the record, Toby insists he is not responsible for all of those missing cases of Pappy, which does seem plausible. There's no security. Right.

• 1:16:24Karen Kilgariff?

  A lot of people at the distillery know that he's doing it, so why wouldn't they do it? I mean, you know, kind of a free-for-all. Either way, the discovery drums up a ton of press, probably because some reporters refer to this as a heist, suggesting an organized, well-planned, Ocean's Eleven-style situation. And that, plus the Kentucky setting, the stolen loot being bourbon, and the name Pappy itself, all of this is like catnip to the media. Reporters dubbed the case "Pappygate", and they called the thief "The Pappy Bandit". Amazing. And they were bored that week. Yes, that's right. How fun, though, to finally, of all the stories that come across your desk. Oh, my God, seriously.

• 1:17:07Karen Kilgariff?

  So as the story goes international, Franklin County Sheriff Pat Milton launches an investigation. His guts telling him it's an inside job. So his officers interview around 100 Buffalo Trace employees hoping for a lead. Meanwhile, Toby keeps doing it, presumably because he knows he has friends in high places. His buyers include some of Franklin County's most respected lawyers, cops, and politicians. That... So he must have felt untouchable. He's like, this is what the people want. Yeah. He even starts selling smuggled steroids alongside... What? ...Tallinn whiskey. No, no. It's a different thing now. It's like, he's like, wait a second, I think I'm good at this. I think I can do black market shit. Does his wife know anything? I mean... It doesn't seem like if he's finding shit in the shed. Plausible deniability. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't have to testify against him.

• 1:17:52Karen Kilgariff?

  He's out in the shed. Well, he had the barrels in the shed, right? He's like, honey, don't look in that shed. Don't go in the she shed. Don't go in the... That's my she shed. That's my man cave. So, here's the good news. No one at this distillery says a thing to the sheriff, so that investigation goes cold. There were no, no snitches at that place. They must have been proud, so... That's pretty amazing. I know, right? Yeah. Probably because they're all, maybe all a little bit involved. Totally. So a couple of years pass, then in March of 2015, a tip finally does come in. The tipster tells officers that a local man has barrels of bourbon suspiciously sitting in his backyard. And this is how Toby Kurtzinger first lands on Sheriff Milton's radar. Again,

• 1:18:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I say, do not fight with your neighbors. Do not over anything for any reason. Yep. Everything's great all the time. Yep. Because you get to that kind of shit. Right, that's where you live. Yeah, you can't get away from them. So before long, investigators head out towards Toby's property, and they park on adjacent land, hoping to get a good look at the backyard without having to enter it, which would, of course, require a search warrant. Then they decide to walk through the woods a little bit, and as they approach the property line, they're hit with a familiar smell. No. One of the officers will later say, quote, "If you grow up in Kentucky, you know what it smells like. It's kind of a sweet smell, and when it's in a barrel like that, there's no doubt in your mind, you can smell bourbon." I can smell it in every dive bar I've ever been in. Like, you know that smell.

• 1:19:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you really do. Wow, that's, that shouldn't be... Something's leaking. Well, and also I wonder if it's like, that's hilarious, because it's like, in Petaluma, at certain times of year, when they turn like, the chicken shit for fertilizer. That's what the whole town smells like. And I wonder if it's that thing that's like, from childhood, you'll just get a waft of bourbon. Totally. That's the biz. Okay, so from here, I had to explain to you how smells work.

• 1:19:50Karen Kilgariff?

  From here, they easily get a search warrant, they find, they easily get a search warrant for the shed, they find all sorts of contraband, including five barrels of wild turkey bourbon, and a bulk quantity of steroids. Oh, that's, see, that's, that's federal prison. That's, that's his little store back there. Yeah. "I got everything from bourbon to steroids and more." Police also seized Toby's personal cellphone, which is bad, because that's what he'd been using the entire time to move all of these stolen goods. Yeah. So now the police have the names of Toby's accomplices, his buyers, even the details of the specific deals he's made. I beg. Because he's not a criminal. He's just like, casual guy trying to like- Burner phone. Who needs it? I just work in shipping. Totally. I'm gonna get a little money.

• 1:20:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I miss softball. I work in shipping, like- Why can't I have some fun? Right. As investigators piece together this haphazard network, they ultimately recover around 20 barrels of bourbon, and two dozen bottles of Pappy Van Winkle. It's estimated that Toby and his accomplices stole and resold about $100,000 worth of bourbon in this entire scheme. Okay. Toby's immediately branded the ringleader, and he is handed felony theft charges, and a misdemeanor for selling those steroids. Oh. Yeah. I guess it's not- Theft and sales are not, I don't know. I don't either, but I guess, maybe steroids aren't a full-on- Right. -big deal narcotic? Maybe not as big a deal. Maybe he didn't have a large enough supply? Intent, maybe the intent, I don't know.

• 1:21:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Maybe there was a mistake on the paperwork, when they were filling it out? Yeah, maybe it was actually just cotton candy. Yeah, that's right. And they like, thought it was steroids. People are so drunk on bourbon, that they're like, "These steroids are amazing." And again- We're gonna get in trouble for that. That's not the accent.

• 1:21:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't at us. Don't, don't attack me for my generalized southern accent. So Toby pleads guilty and he's sentenced to 15 years in prison. We could have just called Paul Holes about the Oh, goddammit. Damn it. Class A felony, yes or no? Okay, 15 years. 15 years. Sheriff Milton sees this as a win. He stands up in front of cameras. He declares Pappy Gate solved, which must have felt amazing. Anti-climatic, maybe, too. I know. It's no Ocean's Eleven, that's for sure. No. And while what Toby and his accomplices did is, of course, criminal, at the end of the day, police only recover a handful of stolen Pappy. Much of the bourbon Toby is caught with is from Wild Turkey. Oh. Reporters from around the world are present at that sheriff's presser,

• 1:22:22Karen Kilgariff?

  and the word of Toby's arrest is covered in papers as far away as Pakistan. Wow. People love Pappy Gate. Just try to tell me that town didn't have a cold case murder to solve. I mean, for real. Not to be a bummer. But still, like, can't we get involved in some stuff? Yeah. 10 people are ultimately indicted in Toby's Bourbon Ring. Several of them take plea deals. Only one person is ever tried, convicted, and sentenced, and that is Toby Kurtzinger. He will later say, quote, "There's an old saying, 'The devil deceived me, showed me something I wanted. It felt good, it looked good, but guess what? Sooner or later, that bill comes due." Damn. Very true, Toby. I mean, it's kind of, he probably kind of knew it the whole time. Yeah, just waiting for it to happen.

• 1:23:07Karen Kilgariff?

  How do you stop doing a thing that's so easy and Right. seems like And if you know you're gonna get caught anyways, like, why stop now? Yeah. Just keep going until you get caught. That's like every heist movie, every kind of criminal, it's, that's Scarface, 100%. Amen. Toby does not end up serving the full 15 years. Of course not. Instead, he's granted something called shock probation, which is a Kentucky program that basically gives nonviolent first offenders some leniency. Sounds like a good idea. Great idea. He's paroled after just 30 days, and then he serves on probation until 2023. So for years. Wow. So essentially, it's just like Probation. Yeah. A long, long, long probation, so Ugh, those weekends of picking up trash and

• 1:23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he can't travel certain places. I don't know all the restrictions.

• 1:23:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, can't play softball.

• 1:23:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God. What if it's softball only probation? You can't talk about softball. You can't go to the gym to work out for softball. So Toby Kurtzinger now lives a quiet life and seems basically to just be working on trying to mend his relationship with his family because there was fallout from the scandal.

• 1:24:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 1:24:18Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's, you know, that's the other thing that probably he never even thought of.

• 1:24:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:24:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Of like when this actually happens.

• 1:24:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  How will it affect everybody else? So to this day, the vast majority of those 200 or so missing bottles of 20 Year Pappy from 2013 have never been found.

• 1:24:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:24:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And in an unexpected twist, this story has only fueled the bourbon craze and prices of Pappy have skyrocketed since the news of the theft first broke.

• 1:24:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I have no idea.

• 1:24:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. So bottles of 20 Year Pappy that once went for $1,000 on the secondary market are now worth $5,000 or more.

• 1:24:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit. Inflation, I guess.

• 1:24:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And also, just like, it's even harder to get.

• 1:24:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Legendary. Oh, my God.

• 1:24:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Because now they put a lock on the area.

• 1:25:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Imagine that.

• 1:25:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Where you keep that Pappy. They took it all out of the display case.

• 1:25:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Good.

• 1:25:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Those are just plastic bottles. So in a weird way, this entire ordeal, while still being a bit of an embarrassment, has been great for Buffalo Trace's bourbon business. And that is the story behind the Pappy Gate Bourbon Heist.

• 1:25:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Did he have to give any of the money back? Do we know?

• 1:25:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know.

• 1:25:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I wonder if he got fined. Probably.

• 1:25:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Probably.

• 1:25:27Georgia Hardstark?

  But who knows? Honestly, I'm thinking about his wife. I don't think I'd leave Vince over that.

• 1:25:32Karen Kilgariff?

  No way. Now he's trying to get a little cash going.

• 1:25:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd be disappointed in him, you know? But I don't think I'd divorce him over that.

• 1:25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it isn't really, it's liquor.

• 1:25:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just liquor he doesn't have the right to sell.

• 1:25:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And you could like argue about sticking it to the man. Although I don't know if, I don't know if Buffalo Trace is the man.

• 1:25:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Are they?

• 1:25:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 1:25:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Bullet. Let's call the Labor Board.

• 1:25:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Excuse me. AreTheyTheMan.com needs to be called. Get the hot dog phone.

• 1:26:03Karen Kilgariff?

  DoTheyDeserveToBeStolenFrom.com. It's a family business, then no.

• 1:26:07Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Wow. Good one.

• 1:26:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:26:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Such a good one.

• 1:26:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Up note.

• 1:26:13Georgia Hardstark?

  True crime, but up note.

• 1:26:14Karen Kilgariff?

  This is what we try to do.

• 1:26:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Fun and flirty, but also like serious.

• 1:26:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Summertime.

• 1:26:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:20Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a very hot dog phone coded episode.

• 1:26:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It is. And that's all we try to give you people.

• 1:26:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:26:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That. Is that it?

• 1:26:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's it.

• 1:26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Thank you guys so much for doing this with us again.

• 1:26:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, you know, I have to say, after six years of not going on the road, George and I were very scared to find out whether or not anybody would care if we were going on the road again. And your response, you know, hopefully, we've said this already, but it really means the world to us that you still give a shit and want to come see us and are doing what you can to do that.

• 1:26:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we can't wait to be in front of you guys.

• 1:26:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Screaming and pointing at you.

• 1:26:58Georgia Hardstark?

  In cute dresses.

• 1:26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And talking about our, the pockets.

• 1:27:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:27:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:27:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:27:13Speaker 03

  Hey, it's Lola Blanc. And Megan Elizabeth. We're so excited to announce the return of our podcast, Trust Me, on Wednesday, July 30. Trust Me is a podcast about cults, extreme belief, manipulation, and high-control groups. And we know all about it because we're survivors ourselves. Each week, we talk to former believers, experts, and sometimes even the people still inside to analyze how these systems work and how smart everyday people get pulled in. Because it's not just robes and compounds. Sometimes it's your friend group, your yoga studio, your unlicensed therapist. We know what this experience feels like, and we're here to make sense of it. And now you can find us on the Exactly Right Podcast Network. That's right. We're so excited to announce that Trust Me has officially joined the ranks,

• 1:27:58Speaker 03

  along with Exactly Right's captivating true crime hits like My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones. Same show, same us, new charismatic leader. So if you're into cults, coercion, or just wild human behavior. You're in the right place. Trust Me returns on July 30 and drops new episodes every Wednesday, now on Exactly Right. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're going to want to hear this. Trust me.

• 1:28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:28:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

• 1:28:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:28:46Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:28:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

• 1:28:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:28:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:28:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:29:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.

• 1:29:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:29:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:29:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:29:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to budget beach bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:29:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:29:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:29:41Speaker 04

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