Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 469 - Crochet Positive About this episode On today’s episode, Karen covers the story of true crime charlatan Stéphane Bourgoin and Georgia covers the 1963 Great Train Robbery.
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Transcript 14,727 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:06 Karen Kilgariff? This holiday season, celebrate the ones you know by heart with a gift that says it all.
0:10 Georgia Hardstark? Because the best gifts don't just look beautiful, they mean something, too.
0:14 Karen Kilgariff? From engraveable pieces that tell your story, to festive charms that capture special memories, to stunning lab-grown diamonds, Pandora has meaningful jewelry for the people who inspire you and have been there through it all.
0:25 Georgia Hardstark? Give a piece that says exactly what words can't.
0:28 Karen Kilgariff? Pandora, more than a gift.
0:29 Georgia Hardstark? Shop new styles in-store or online at pandora.net.
0:33 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
0:35 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book.
0:38 Karen Kilgariff? Well, grow up, because it's almost impossible.
0:41 Georgia Hardstark? Luckily, you can take your next great story with you on Audible.
0:44 Karen Kilgariff? Audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from, including This American Life, new books by Michael Connelly, along with classics from Magathah Christie, and so much more.
0:53 Georgia Hardstark? Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.
0:58 Karen Kilgariff? New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.
1:03 Georgia Hardstark? Audible, stories that speak to you.
1:05 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:23 Karen Kilgariff? Hello and welcome.
1:26 Georgia Hardstark? To My Favorite Murder.
1:28 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hart's story.
1:29 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilgariff.
1:31 Karen Kilgariff? And now we're going to podcast at you.
1:33 Georgia Hardstark? Ready? Here it comes.
1:34 Karen Kilgariff? Begin.
1:34 Georgia Hardstark? Begin again.
1:36 Karen Kilgariff? And now.
1:38 Georgia Hardstark? Act.
1:39 Karen Kilgariff? And act. Act like you can podcast.
1:44 Georgia Hardstark? What do you got? I have nothing.
1:45 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, well, then, great, because I have plenty for you.
1:48 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, great, let's do it.
1:49 Karen Kilgariff? Last week, I told a very disturbing story of a woman who claimed to have found a finger in her chili at Wendy's.
1:57 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm. Oh, we'll never forget.
1:59 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, none of us shall ever, but in that story, I name-checked my friend Erica Sobel, who I went to high school with, and as I expected, she texted me.
2:11 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
2:11 Karen Kilgariff? Because she is not only a day-one listener, but she is a week-to-weeker.
2:16 Georgia Hardstark? Nice.
2:17 Karen Kilgariff? Given to give a different title to people. She, she texted me LOL, crying, laughing face. Thank you for the Wendy's shout out. Yes, I worked at Wendy's for years, sophomore to senior.
2:30 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
2:30 Karen Kilgariff? All of high school. Her parents were those like, you will go out and get a job and learn reality.
2:35 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing.
2:36 Karen Kilgariff? For the record, we had very strict food safety training. When this story came out, I knew it was obviously bullshit. She's a Wendy's believer. She wasn't just an employee.
2:45 Georgia Hardstark? Like, you work somewhere that long, you're gonna hate it if it sucks.
2:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
2:49 Georgia Hardstark? You know?
2:50 Karen Kilgariff? You're gonna jump on any story that's like, hooray. And she was like, absolutely not. She said, as I recall, the chili was made in the afternoon. Burgers were grilled fresh, never frozen. And we saved the patties that didn't get sold in a certain amount of time to chop up and add to a bagged, pre-made chili mix.
3:08 Georgia Hardstark? I read that somewhere too. Someone else said that of like, it's the like sad hamburgers that didn't make it onto a hamburger bun chopped up into the chili.
3:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, which makes perfect sense.
3:18 Georgia Hardstark? It does.
3:19 Karen Kilgariff? They're using every part of the buffalo, which is, it is not buffalo.
3:24 Georgia Hardstark? No.
3:25 Karen Kilgariff? People love chili. This is so funny, Erica. People love chili on the baked potato, taco salads, chili fries.
3:32 Georgia Hardstark? Taco salad? Just dump a big, piling hot fucking spoonful of chili on it?
3:38 Karen Kilgariff? But right onto some iceberg? That sounds good.
3:40 Georgia Hardstark? Alright, I'll do that.
3:42 Karen Kilgariff? Did you know they had chili fries? I had no idea.
3:44 Georgia Hardstark? No, but it makes sense if they have fries and chili.
3:46 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, and then it says, I got a text from my murdering no cousin in Baltimore early this morning. She was dying, you mentioned my name.
3:53 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
3:53 Karen Kilgariff? And then the very last text is, oh, and just saying, I never ate the chili.
3:59 Georgia Hardstark? Also, when did she send that?
4:01 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, Friday.
4:01 Georgia Hardstark? Cause you didn't respond to her.
4:03 Karen Kilgariff? No.
4:03 Georgia Hardstark? It's, there's no response.
4:05 Karen Kilgariff? Well, the first thing was, I saw it and didn't have her number in my phone.
4:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, okay.
4:10 Karen Kilgariff? So immediately was like, none of my business.
4:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4:14 Karen Kilgariff? Because I am the queen of like, what's this link you just sent me?
4:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oh no, you have a, you have a toll ticket you never paid?
4:21 Karen Kilgariff? I do.
4:21 Georgia Hardstark? I better pay it.
4:22 Karen Kilgariff? Literally.
4:23 Georgia Hardstark? Did you do that?
4:24 Karen Kilgariff? I didn't touch the link, but the toll ticket thing.
4:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:27 Karen Kilgariff? Toll ticket thing was like haunting me where I'm like, cause it, I'm always going over the San Rafael Bridge when I go home.
4:33 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
4:33 Karen Kilgariff? And you're not allowed to, like, you just have to run it and then they send you the, the toll.
4:38 Georgia Hardstark? Cause we do the 110 to the free, to the airport. There's that EZ Pass.
4:43 Karen Kilgariff? Oh yeah.
4:43 Georgia Hardstark? Which is like golden.
4:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
4:45 Georgia Hardstark? So I was like, oh, maybe I'd been to the airport recently and Vince was like, fucking no, don't click on it.
4:51 Karen Kilgariff? Don't go nowhere near this.
4:53 Georgia Hardstark? Guys, it's a scam. Everyone's like, no shit.
4:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, they're like, thanks grandma.
4:57 Georgia Hardstark? As if like, yeah, as if like the toll place would be like, it's sent from 134 at Hotmail. They told me that I have to pay my.
5:03 Karen Kilgariff? Right. We're just like, oh, I guess they're making their employees use their personal Hotmail accounts. Oh, well, here, I'll answer you.
5:10 Georgia Hardstark? Don't trust anything.
5:11 Karen Kilgariff? Trust nothing.
5:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
5:13 Karen Kilgariff? But, but please trust random gifts.
5:16 Georgia Hardstark? What is this?
5:17 Karen Kilgariff? We'll just see.
5:19 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, Karen just gave me a big gorgeous fucking gift bag with gorgeous fucking tissue coming out of it.
5:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:25 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
5:25 Karen Kilgariff? Really beautifully, expertly put together.
5:28 Georgia Hardstark? Which means you didn't, you're saying you didn't do it?
5:30 Karen Kilgariff? Exactly right.
5:30 Georgia Hardstark? You're impressed. It looks like a wine bottle gift bag.
5:34 Karen Kilgariff? You paused like, I'm not now, I'm not trying to insult you.
5:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, if you said it was nice. Okay, what is this? It's a can of something. A can of Wendy's chili.
5:46 Karen Kilgariff? Did you know they made that?
5:47 Georgia Hardstark? No, who gave this to us?
5:49 Karen Kilgariff? Allison went and found it.
5:51 Georgia Hardstark? Allison Agassi.
5:51 Karen Kilgariff? Allison and Alejandra, I believe, but I think Allison was the one that searched for it to see.
5:57 Georgia Hardstark? I had no clue that they canned Wendy's chili. I'd eat that. I would eat this.
6:01 Karen Kilgariff? And like, any kind of hesitation I would have about not eating it is false, is from a fake story.
6:09 Georgia Hardstark? Right, right.
6:10 Karen Kilgariff? Which sucks.
6:11 Georgia Hardstark? It sucks. It's gonna be frustrating. But then, yeah, you're just always gonna have toe or finger, I guess. Yeah, and fucking chili in your mind when you go there.
6:19 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I guess. Thought you'd really enjoy though, that you can actually get it in cans.
6:24 Georgia Hardstark? I'm so happy for that. Thank you. I will eat that.
6:26 Karen Kilgariff? Anything else that you've been looking at or absorbing?
6:30 Georgia Hardstark? Been reading books.
6:32 Karen Kilgariff? You love a book.
6:33 Georgia Hardstark? I love books, but like, there's not much going on.
6:36 Karen Kilgariff? Well, then let's just get into the show like regular true crime podcasters.
6:39 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. Wow, that was a quickie. Before we tell you our stories, we're going to give you some highlights from our very own podcast network, Exactly Right Media.
6:48 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. So for example, this week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul dive into the chilling tale of John Wesley Elkins, the infamous 13-year-old who murdered his father and stepmother in 1889.
7:01 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa. And over on Do You Need a Ride, Karen and Chris welcome the always hilarious and delightfully witty Solomon Giorgio. Love him.
7:09 Karen Kilgariff? And speaking of Karen, she joins the Banana Boys this week to talk about some of the world's most outlandish headlines.
7:15 Georgia Hardstark? How fun. And this week on This Podcast Will Kill You, get ready for a hard-hitting discussion about sildenafil, the medication used to treat everyone's favorite dysfunction, erectile dysfunction.
7:28 Karen Kilgariff? You did want me to say it along with you, right?
7:30 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone said it with me.
7:31 Karen Kilgariff? And just so you know, we've restocked the store with all your favorite merch.
7:35 Georgia Hardstark? Like, for example, did you miss the chance to buy one of our legendary crow shirts? Well, ka-kah, this is your signal that they're restocked.
7:45 Karen Kilgariff? Can I, can I give you the way that Alison wanted you to say it?
7:49 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, let me hear it.
7:49 Karen Kilgariff? I was supposed to remember it, I forgot. Well, ka-kah.
7:52 Georgia Hardstark? Well, I'm glad you did it and not me, because I'm not doing that.
7:56 Karen Kilgariff? You can do a crow impression.
7:58 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm, only when not told to. You know what I mean?
8:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I get it.
8:03 Georgia Hardstark? I don't like to be told how to crow.
8:04 Karen Kilgariff? Totally understand. Also, get ready for summer with a Stay Sexy Don't Get Murdered muscle tee. You can warn the followers in your life with Just Rogers, you're an occult design. Those are now available in both unisex and women's tees. There's so much going on over there. Don't miss out.
8:20 Georgia Hardstark? Go to myfavoritemurder.com.
8:24 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
8:27 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
8:33 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.
8:36 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you. Not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
9:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.
9:19 Karen Kilgariff? That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.
9:27 Georgia Hardstark? SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.
9:30 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. The most annoying thing about dinner is that you have to keep making it.
9:34 Georgia Hardstark? And every single time you have to figure out what you're going to eat.
9:38 Karen Kilgariff? It's time to take some of that work off your plate with Hungry Root.
9:40 Georgia Hardstark? Hungry Root is like having your own personal shopper and nutritionist all wrapped into one. They'll take care of the weekly grocery shopping and recommend groceries and meals tailored to you. It's so nice having Hungry Root just take care of the thinking part of dinner. Because I swear, like every 10 minutes of my life is what's for dinner? I'm so sick of it. And so I love when you can just open your fridge and be like, okay, great. We have roasted chicken with fries and broccoli from Hungry Root. Or Wagyu ribeye steak with green goddess potatoes. Great, let's go with that. I don't want to think about it. That sounds amazing and it's easy.
10:15 Karen Kilgariff? It's easy and it's good for you. You're not just ordering another pizza. You're gonna love Hungry Root.
10:20 Georgia Hardstark? For a love at a time, get 40% off your first order, plus get a free item in every box for life.
10:25 Karen Kilgariff? Go to hungryroot.com/mfm and use code MFM.
10:28 Georgia Hardstark? That's hungryroot.com/mfm, code MFM to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life.
10:36 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
10:39 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, you're first. I'm sitting back.
10:41 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, sit on back because when this story was first pitched to me, and I think it was either by Marin or by Alejandro Cac, our producer, I couldn't believe, like, I think I'd heard, like, inklings, I guess is the right word of this story, around a little bit, but I'd never, like, gotten the full scope of what we were talking about.
11:04 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, shit.
11:06 Karen Kilgariff? So the story begins in France in 2020 as an online community of web sleuths is hard at work.
11:13 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, love them. Love it already.
11:15 Karen Kilgariff? What a kickoff, right?
11:16 Georgia Hardstark? Ooh.
11:17 Karen Kilgariff? So this community is in France. They call themselves the Fourth Eye Corporation, and they're currently doing what they do best, which is combing through news reports and interviews, building out timelines of specific crimes and calling sources around the world to verify their information.
11:34 Georgia Hardstark? Like, what a dream. What a dream to do. Fuck crocheting. This is what I want to do with my fucking retirement.
11:41 Karen Kilgariff? Excuse me, listener. She did not mean that.
11:43 Georgia Hardstark? I didn't mean fuck crochet. I mean crochet while you do this.
11:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
11:46 Georgia Hardstark? That's all I meant.
11:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, yes.
11:47 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God. I just pissed off so many fucking people.
11:49 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my God. Etsy just exploded. So the Fourth Eye Corporation does all of this in hopes of untangling what is, at that time, a very murky backstory around one man, a well-known French author and criminology expert, who began his career as the former owner of the Parisian bookstore The Third Eye.
12:11 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
12:12 Karen Kilgariff? Right? So this is the Fourth Eye Corporation looking into the Third Eye.
12:15 Georgia Hardstark? Like fourth generation or fourth, fourth wave feminism.
12:18 Karen Kilgariff? Exactly.
12:18 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
12:19 Karen Kilgariff? Just like that.
12:20 Georgia Hardstark? Just like it.
12:21 Karen Kilgariff? And The Third Eye was known for its crime and mystery collection. So this man that owned that bookstore has built a successful career catering to the people exactly like you and me and the members of the Fourth Eye Corporation and many people listening to this podcast right now. But now his career has made him the focus of this group of people's research and investigations, but for all the wrong reasons. This is the story of the rise and fall of true crime charlatan Stephane Barreaux.
12:50 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, I'm excited.
12:51 Karen Kilgariff? Have you heard of any of this?
12:53 Georgia Hardstark? Not a fucking moment of this.
12:54 Karen Kilgariff? Really?
12:54 Georgia Hardstark? No.
12:55 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
12:55 Georgia Hardstark? Like, maybe it'll get familiar, but right now, huh, uh-uh.
12:58 Karen Kilgariff? It's a fresh one. I love that.
12:59 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
12:59 Karen Kilgariff? So the main sources used in Maren's research today are an article by Lauren Collins entitled "The Unraveling of an Expert on Serial Killers", which ran in The New Yorker in 2022. So this is a very recent story.
13:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, okay.
13:14 Karen Kilgariff? Also, an article by Scott Sayer entitled "What Lies Beneath: The Secret of France's Top Serial Killer Expert".
13:21 Georgia Hardstark? I get it. What lies? It's because it's lying.
13:23 Karen Kilgariff? It's lies. And I wonder if lies was, like, in red.
13:26 Georgia Hardstark? Lies.
13:27 Karen Kilgariff? Or...
13:27 Georgia Hardstark? Italicsized.
13:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yep, exactly. Laying to the side.
13:32 Karen Kilgariff? That article was in The Guardian in 2021. Both of those sources are heavily cited in this story. So, thank you, Lauren and Scott. The rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, we'll start at the beginning. Long before the Fourth Eye Corporation exists, this is Stephane Bourguen's origin story. He's born in 1953, a decade after the end of World War II, to very wealthy and socially connected parents. The Bourguens' huge apartment has a view of L'Arc de Triomphe.
14:04 Georgia Hardstark? I've heard of it.
14:05 Karen Kilgariff? And a staff of domestic servants that work at the family's beck and call. Very specific upbringing.
14:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, especially after World War II. I don't think a lot of people were wealthy then.
14:17 Karen Kilgariff? Right, in Europe.
14:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
14:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, true. So, young Stephane describes an idyllic childhood where he bounces around mid-century Paris, sometimes spending entire days at the movie theater, watching films back to back. Now, when I got to that part, I was like, but they only play one movie at a time at the movie theater. It's not TV.
14:39 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
14:40 Karen Kilgariff? Is this even true?
14:41 Georgia Hardstark? Back to back of one is still back to back.
14:43 Karen Kilgariff? Just back to back of the same movie. You're just like, "Harold and Maude, again, again." That is a great movie. So, Stephane loves movies so much that by his late teens, he's doing everything he can to break into the Parisian film world. He's especially drawn to genre film, like horror, science fiction. And eventually, he connects with the publisher of a genre zine named Alain Schlockoff. So, he starts writing for Alain, and the two become friends. In 1975, Alain is working tirelessly to launch a film festival, and Stephane is helping out his assistant, until it comes to light that Stephane has actually been contacting filmmakers behind his boss's back, pretending to be his boss
15:28 Karen Kilgariff? in the hopes that he can acquire enough films to create his own competing film festival.
15:35 Georgia Hardstark? Get your own ideas. Get your own gimmicks. It's almost like, why do you have to copy his gimmick?
15:41 Karen Kilgariff? Right. Or is that your only choice? Like, you kind of don't know what else to do.
15:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, because you don't have any ideas of your own.
15:47 Karen Kilgariff? Journalist Scott Sayer later reports, quote, "Alain cut ties with Stephane immediately. Stephane's festival took place but flopped."
15:57 Georgia Hardstark? Damn.
15:58 Karen Kilgariff? Well, yeah. You can't just do it and be like, no, mine.
16:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:03 Karen Kilgariff? My competing festival.
16:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:05 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so this, of course, is a bad look and a bad move. Also, in genre film, it's not like all of film. It's very specific, I would imagine, a smaller set of people. But Stephane shakes it off and heads to the US, hoping to break into Hollywood. Once here, he reportedly gets some work writing pornographic films.
16:26 Georgia Hardstark? Bet that was so easy back then.
16:28 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, they are very plot driven and can be a lot like Memento at times. Where you, it's so.
16:36 Georgia Hardstark? Am I coming or am I going? Literally, is it linear? Is anything linear?
16:40 Karen Kilgariff? Are you the pizza man or the plumber? Those are the two choices. When he eventually returns to France, he comes back with what one friend calls, quote, "stars in his eyes" about the United States. He's also got suitcases stuffed with comic books, memorabilia, and countless stories of meeting actors and directors. But Stephane also returns with a much more tragic and disturbing story. He tells his inner circle that while he's in the US, he meets and falls in love with a woman named Hélène, the French pronunciation of Helen.
17:14 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm.
17:14 Karen Kilgariff? Hélène. Then, one day, while he's at work, Hélène is murdered. And, as Stephane tells his friends, quote, "cut up in two pieces."
17:25 Georgia Hardstark? What year is this around?
17:26 Karen Kilgariff? Seventy-five.
17:27 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
17:28 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm. Stephane says he was the one who discovered her body.
17:33 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
17:34 Karen Kilgariff? He's around thirty years old at the time. So, of course, this horrible, devastating, and traumatic event that happens while he is alone in a new country.
17:43 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
17:44 Karen Kilgariff? But despite all that, Stephane starts working at a local secondhand bookstore, The Third Eye, and he loves it so much that he soon buys it outright and basically becomes his own boss. The Third Eye bookstore is a hub for people that are into true crime and genre fiction in Paris.
18:02 Georgia Hardstark? Ah.
18:03 Karen Kilgariff? Can you imagine?
18:04 Georgia Hardstark? No. There's gotta be a cat. Tell me there's a cat.
18:07 Karen Kilgariff? There's gotta be a cat and an array of scarves and berets that you would kill for.
18:12 Georgia Hardstark? Smoking indoors around all the paper.
18:14 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
18:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my, reeks.
18:16 Karen Kilgariff? Did you read the new Anne Hulle? Would be the question.
18:20 Georgia Hardstark? Good one.
18:20 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you so much. Finally, using my French education of two years, St. Vincent's High School. So, Stephane is such a fixture in the shop that he inspires a few writers to create characters that are kind of based on him for their books. He also becomes a go-to translator for books written by famous English language, crime, and horror authors, like the author Robert Bloch, who wrote Psycho. At the time, Stephane is earning a reputation for his truly impressive and encyclopedic knowledge of serial killers. Into the 1990s, the people around him start noticing that he's becoming borderline obsessed with the topic. Scott Sayer writes that, quote, "Initially, his friends found it amusing, or at least
19:05 Karen Kilgariff? inoffensive, but it soon grew tiresome. He spoke of nothing else."
19:10 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
19:11 Karen Kilgariff? End quote.
19:11 Georgia Hardstark? Can't talk shit on that, can I?
19:13 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, there is no judgment here, but only in this one small part of the story.
19:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
19:18 Karen Kilgariff? But it's interesting because the concept of serial killers basically kind of broke in the late 70s when Ted Bundy, like, there were some big stories that broke.
19:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. There was spree killing, there was multiple murders, but they never understood actual, the way we understand them today, serial killers.
19:37 Karen Kilgariff? Which I think has to do with the team from Mindhunter.
19:40 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
19:40 Karen Kilgariff? Going in and basically trying to, as the FBI, study them and talk about it and be like, there's something here to...
19:49 Georgia Hardstark? There's a pattern, there's a difference between a spree killer and a serial killer.
19:54 Karen Kilgariff? And a crime of passion.
19:55 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
19:55 Karen Kilgariff? There, this is a different thing, and we need to delineate, these are people that are planning.
20:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
20:00 Karen Kilgariff? And doing it for a totally different reason.
20:02 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
20:02 Karen Kilgariff? Which was very compelling. I mean, that is why that whole.
20:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
20:06 Karen Kilgariff? Genre kind of came up in the 80s and 90s the way it did.
20:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
20:10 Karen Kilgariff? But in the early 80s and 90s in France, basically that conversation hadn't really come to the cultural fore yet. Of course, France had its own history of sadistic and repeat offenders, but the idea of serial killers being their own category of criminal that can be profiled by law enforcement hadn't hit the mainstream yet.
20:30 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
20:30 Karen Kilgariff? So Stephane is arguably on the forefront of this type of thinking in France. Years later, a prosecutor will tell The New Yorker that, quote, "He was one of the first people in France to say that serial killers weren't only in America."
20:44 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
20:45 Karen Kilgariff? So Stephane is dedicated to this budding obsession. He's known to record newscasts about murders, accidents, and natural disasters, which he keeps in an ever-growing VHS collection.
20:57 Georgia Hardstark? Weird.
20:58 Karen Kilgariff? He also amasses pictures of corpses and cadavers that he likes to show off to guests.
21:03 Georgia Hardstark? No, thank you.
21:04 Karen Kilgariff? Not in the least. But I do want to remind the audience listening, especially the younger people, this was the time before YouTube, the time before the internet. There was a kind of like, especially in the stand-up comedy world, it was seen as underground.
21:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
21:20 Karen Kilgariff? But it was essentially like, here's the things people aren't talking about, or here's the things that people, you know, that is taboo in some way.
21:27 Georgia Hardstark? Well, who am I to say? I rented Faces of Death multiple times.
21:30 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
21:31 Georgia Hardstark? What was the Blood on the Asphalt? My high school boyfriend and I would just fucking sit and watch on a Saturday night. So I have nothing to say.
21:39 Karen Kilgariff? Until it was organized in this way where it's like, it's actually, you're not like the worst person in the world for having this curiosity about what is taboo and scary and horrifying in our world.
21:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
21:51 Karen Kilgariff? Like as human beings. So I'm saying you're not. At the time, though, society said you absolutely are.
21:59 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely, definitely.
21:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
22:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:00 Karen Kilgariff? So Stephane has this unnerving habit of telling shocking and disturbing stories about murder in social settings.
22:09 Georgia Hardstark? No, stop it. Just, you can't do that. We've learned that.
22:12 Karen Kilgariff? We've learned that by doing it.
22:14 Georgia Hardstark? By doing it and starting a podcast about it.
22:16 Karen Kilgariff? It's our origin story.
22:17 Georgia Hardstark? Truly.
22:17 Karen Kilgariff? For sure. But for example, Stephane liked to tell how his mother's first husband was decapitated by Nazis.
22:25 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus.
22:26 Karen Kilgariff? So. Sometimes we're just trying to make a connection with other people quickly and efficiently. You know.
22:33 Georgia Hardstark? And we don't understand social cues and that's understandable.
22:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, and you're kind of looking for people who are like, this is horrifying. Are you also like compelled yet horrified by it?
22:43 Georgia Hardstark? Are you my people?
22:44 Karen Kilgariff? Are you my people? Still, I'm like, if I was at that dinner party, I would be like, this isn't what I'm, this isn't my interest.
22:50 Georgia Hardstark? No.
22:52 Karen Kilgariff? But it is Stefan's interest and he has found it. And he figures soon he would like to figure out a way to combine that this interest and obsession with his first love of cinema. And in the early 1990s, after Silence of the Lambs comes out and is like a basically a worldwide hit. It feels like this is the right time to produce a documentary about serial killers.
23:15 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
23:15 Karen Kilgariff? So Stefan reaches out to a film producer named Carol Carangie. So this will mostly be Carol's project, but she's excited to work with Stefan because he is becoming known in certain circles as a basically a budding expert in this topic. And they seem, the two of them seem in alignment on their tone of the movie. They do not want to sensationalize serial killers. Instead, Carol says, quote, "We wanted to know if over time, these killers had come to understand the harm they'd done if they'd questioned themselves." End quote.
23:48 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
23:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So during the production of this, the crew travels to the United States, first to Quantico, where they managed to land an interview with famous profiler John Douglas.
23:59 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
24:00 Karen Kilgariff? And then down to Florida where they're given access to interview two convicted serial killers. I bet you can guess one of them.
24:07 Georgia Hardstark? Ted Bundy.
24:09 Karen Kilgariff? No, close though. Who's the one that loved talking? Otis Tool. Who basically confessed to every murder.
24:16 Georgia Hardstark? We don't even know if he was a serial killer.
24:18 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
24:18 Georgia Hardstark? No.
24:19 Karen Kilgariff? The other is John Gerard Schaefer, who I literally just covered recently. He's the cop that was that, that actually started killing young women.
24:28 Georgia Hardstark? Remember him? Yes, 100%.
24:30 Karen Kilgariff? So those are the two interviews that they get in Florida. Then they go to California to meet with Ed Kemper.
24:38 Karen Kilgariff? So if you want to hear me cover John Gerard Schaefer's story, that's episode 446. The title of that episode is "I'm Michael Caine." Do you remember that?
24:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
24:49 Karen Kilgariff? Otis Tool gets covered in George's story about the disappearance of Adam Walsh in episode 242, which is called Spoilerama. And Ed Kemper is covered in episode 39.
25:03 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
25:04 Karen Kilgariff? Early episode 39, which is entitled "Kind of Loco." So Ed Kemper specifically seems like the perfect interview subject for this film because they're interested in whether or not these murderers have come to question what they've done. And as Scott Sayer points out, quote, "Kemper was thought to have grown exceptionally introspective and regretful. He could provide the analysis that they wanted. But Carol's too scared to meet with these killers in person."
25:32 Georgia Hardstark? Definitely.
25:33 Karen Kilgariff? Never would want that in my life. So she and Stephane write out the interview questions together. But when it comes time to go and meet in person, Stephane and a cameraman are the only ones that go into the prison.
25:47 Georgia Hardstark? I also think these killers would talk and have a different experience with a woman that isn't as authentic. And I just wouldn't. I wouldn't go there.
25:56 Karen Kilgariff? Absolutely.
25:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:58 Karen Kilgariff? So Carol gets the tapes and then listens back to these interviews. And when she does, she's horrified to learn that Stephane went completely off script and in the worst possible way. He was not remotely interested in whether or not these men had come to regret their actions. Instead, he asked them inappropriate, salacious questions that seemed designed to produce the most disgusting answers in the most detail possible.
26:24 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
26:25 Karen Kilgariff? For example, he repeatedly asks Ed Kemper about his, quote, "fantasies of decapitating women." Carol also learns that Stephane brought several copies of a very violent book that Schaefer wrote for him to autograph.
26:41 Georgia Hardstark? No.
26:42 Karen Kilgariff? So this documentary is eventually completed with the title "An Investigation Into..." Deviance.
26:48 Georgia Hardstark? He's like fanboying over these serial killers.
26:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, exactly. And Carol just never talks to him again.
26:55 Georgia Hardstark? Good for her.
26:55 Karen Kilgariff? She will later say, quote, "I saw Stefan change. When he had the killers in front of him, it was as if he was sitting across from his idols."
27:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yikes.
27:04 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
27:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's so chilling when she was listening. That's a movie itself.
27:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, it is.
27:09 Georgia Hardstark? Like, her finding out this person. Oh, my god.
27:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, that she's supposed to be like co-producing a documentary with.
27:16 Georgia Hardstark? And like traveling in a foreign country with and, yeah.
27:19 Karen Kilgariff? So Carol cuts him out of her life, but this behavior does nothing to slow Stefan's rise. Shortly after an investigation into Deviance airs, and while he's still working in French film and TV, Stefan publishes his first book on serial killers, focusing on Jack the Ripper. He'll spend the next two decades publishing more than 70 true crime books.
27:44 Georgia Hardstark? Too many books.
27:45 Karen Kilgariff? Let's take a break. So many books.
27:48 Georgia Hardstark? Learn how to crochet.
27:49 Karen Kilgariff? We're back.
27:50 Georgia Hardstark? I'm just so, from now on.
27:52 Karen Kilgariff? Smart.
27:52 Georgia Hardstark? I'm so hard on crocheting.
27:53 Karen Kilgariff? You're like the most positive crochet positive.
27:57 Georgia Hardstark? I'm gonna crochet when I'm podcasting for the rest of my fucking life.
28:01 Karen Kilgariff? Stefan's becoming the go-to expert on criminology in France. He isn't just writing or working on documentaries anymore. He is now giving talks to law enforcement officials, analyzing high-profile cases on TV shows, and positioning himself as a serious authority on how serial killers operate.
28:19 Georgia Hardstark? See, if he was a woman, it would be fine.
28:23 Georgia Hardstark? You know? But it's there's something, because I clearly know where this is going.
28:26 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, for you personally.
28:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:27 Karen Kilgariff? I thought you were being sarcastic, because it's like, this is such a great example, and it reminds me of the staircase, the blood spatter expert.
28:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:35 Karen Kilgariff? Where there's so much assumed, no one asks the question.
28:38 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
28:39 Karen Kilgariff? I'm sorry, how did you become an expert on something?
28:41 Georgia Hardstark? Where did you get your education?
28:42 Karen Kilgariff? Where is this coming from?
28:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:44 Karen Kilgariff? And because now you're on TV telling experts.
28:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:48 Karen Kilgariff? How to do it.
28:49 Georgia Hardstark? It's nefarious.
28:51 Karen Kilgariff? So at the time, Stephane seems to have the credentials to back it up. He claims to have personally interviewed dozens of the world's most notorious serial killers and name drops some of the most notorious, like David Berkowitz and Charles Manson. And sometimes he shares harrowing stories from these encounters. For example, he says John Wayne Gacy once grabbed his ass during a prison interview. And that during his conversation with Angel of Death killer Donald Harvey, that you covered at our live, episode 110, our live show in Columbus, Ohio.
29:26 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
29:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. We've done all of them.
29:30 Georgia Hardstark? We've done a lot of shows.
29:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we have. So Harvey murdered dozens of patients working as an orderly at a hospital. Stephane claims Harvey confessed to 17 additional murders when he talked to him. So he got him to confess.
29:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
29:46 Karen Kilgariff? The way experienced detectives and investigators could not. He even claims the FBI respects his expertise so much, they invited him to an exclusive training program at Quantico, where he learned the ropes from John Douglas himself.
30:01 Georgia Hardstark? He's confusing it for Silence of the Lambs.
30:04 Karen Kilgariff? He's confusing everything, like his whole life, with everything he's ever read.
30:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:09 Karen Kilgariff? Which is very much like, oh, you and your little bookstore, reading all this stuff, absorbing it, loving it.
30:15 Georgia Hardstark? And needing to be part of it.
30:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, and then becoming part of it.
30:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:19 Karen Kilgariff? So for years, no one publicly questions any of this expertise. But there are people in Stephane's private life that don't believe anything he says. Friends will later tell writer Lauren Collins of The New Yorker that the Quantico training program, for example, quote, "triggered rounds of knowing laughter among us because we all knew it was absolutely bogus."
30:41 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, shit.
30:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Then there's also the issue with the story of Elan, the woman he claims he was dating in the US, who he claims he found brutally murdered. For years, he's been privately sharing this story with friends and family. They are skeptical, but of course, who's going to question a story like that?
31:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right, and there's no internet to fucking look that shit up on anyways.
31:05 Karen Kilgariff? Exactly. So they're like, mm, but, okay. Stefan had never shared it publicly until the year 2000.
31:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, see, a guy like that would have shared it publicly if it were true, right? Like, he wants as much credit as he can.
31:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
31:18 Georgia Hardstark? There's no reason to keep it quiet if you're like, that much of a narcissist.
31:22 Karen Kilgariff? Right, and there's no way that a narcissist who loves, like, serial killers, had that experience.
31:30 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
31:30 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
31:31 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
31:31 Karen Kilgariff? Because-
31:32 Georgia Hardstark? Without talking about it publicly.
31:33 Karen Kilgariff? Right, exactly. Without going wide and being like, now I wrote a book and now I did this thing.
31:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
31:38 Karen Kilgariff? So now that he's a well-known, by the year 2000, a well-known expert in serial killers, he starts to claim it is Elan's murder that got him interested in this topic. And then he has a picture that he shows off of the two of them together. But he doesn't have his own story straight. In some media appearances, he'll call her Eileen, saying she was his wife, not his girlfriend. Later, she'll be downgraded to, quote, "a very close friend." So, this story also seems suspiciously one-dimensional, when he salaciously notes that he found her body, quote, "mutilated, raped, and practically decapitated",
32:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
32:17 Karen Kilgariff? end quote, and that her killer was ultimately caught and currently sitting on death row in the United States. Other than those two facts, he doesn't have much to say about her as a person.
32:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yikes. Got like, the Jinx vibes.
32:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
32:33 Georgia Hardstark? Right?
32:34 Karen Kilgariff? Completely. Somehow, despite those discrepancies, the story only adds to his popularity and credibility in the field.
32:42 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
32:43 Karen Kilgariff? It more or less explains his eccentricities and it turns him into a sympathetic character. Like, this is why he's so obsessed. Which he is stealing from Dominic Dunn.
32:52 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
32:53 Karen Kilgariff? Well, I mean, like, it didn't happen in that order, but Dominic Dunn having to go through the murder of his own daughter and then write about
32:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:00 Karen Kilgariff? that crime, you know, for major publications, is, it's, all these things are, everything is, like, stolen here, stolen there.
33:08 Georgia Hardstark? And why would anyone catch it? Like, most, most, like, day-to-day people have not had an experience like that, so when they hear someone talk about it, they wouldn't be like, "Why would you make that up? It sounds awful."
33:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, completely. Stephane even starts communicating with survivors of violent crime. Lauren Collins notes, quote, "They saw him as a kindred survivor, someone who could be trusted to treat them with integrity because of his personal experience."
33:33 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
33:34 Karen Kilgariff? But it turns out, everything about Stephane Bourgoin's life and his career is worth scrutinizing. And in a particularly troubling example of his questionable character, Stephane uses his reputation as the bereaved loved one of a victim to meet a woman named Dehina Sai. Dehina was just 14 years old when she was abducted and raped by a man who would then go on to murder seven women.
34:00 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
34:01 Karen Kilgariff? So she, as a 14-year-old girl, escaped the clutches of a serial killer.
34:07 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus.
34:08 Karen Kilgariff? Her trauma from this attack, of course, I'm sure was
34:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:12 Karen Kilgariff? manifested in a million ways, but one of those ways was a very intense fear of spiders, which somehow Stephane learns about her. He invites her to dinner at his house one night, and when she arrives, he begins showing her graphic crime scene photos. And then, at one point, as a funny joke, puts a plastic spider on her shoulder.
34:34 Georgia Hardstark? Dude. Fucking straight to jail.
34:37 Karen Kilgariff? Right. Dahina will later say, quote, "I was paralyzed and he was laughing. I think it gave him pleasure to mess with my mind."
34:45 Georgia Hardstark? Ew.
34:46 Karen Kilgariff? So I don't know if we're dealing, I don't, you know, we always love to, I love to for sure, analyze and like diagnose people.
34:54 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
34:55 Karen Kilgariff? To me, that is sociopathic.
34:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:57 Karen Kilgariff? That is, goes beyond.
34:58 Georgia Hardstark? That's closer to psychopath.
35:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
35:00 Georgia Hardstark? Too. Let's, if we're gonna diagnose someone, let's go all the fucking way.
35:04 Karen Kilgariff? Let's do our famous double si- diagnosis of sociopath psychopath because.
35:08 Georgia Hardstark? They can get more mad at us for another diagnosis. They're gonna be mad at us for one diagnosis. We might as well fucking go all the way.
35:14 Karen Kilgariff? Slap them all on there.
35:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
35:15 Karen Kilgariff? And just being a jerk. So also just that horrible thing of you have basically lured.
35:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
35:24 Karen Kilgariff? This woman there because she thinks that like there's, you're a famous person, you're an author, whoever, you're gonna spend time with this person and talk about what they've gone through.
35:35 Georgia Hardstark? Honored to be with this person. It's that thing of like that every fucking woman has ever experienced of like, oh shit, I trusted the wrong person and now I'm in their home.
35:44 Karen Kilgariff? Apartment, yes.
35:45 Georgia Hardstark? Whatever it is. It's like, oh no, how do I get myself out of this?
35:49 Karen Kilgariff? And then when I am so paralyzed and horrified that you put a plastic spider on my shoulder.
35:55 Georgia Hardstark? Vulnerability is so well, because you're.
35:56 Karen Kilgariff? Then you just say it's only a joke.
35:58 Georgia Hardstark? Monster, right. Calm down.
36:00 Karen Kilgariff? Monster style.
36:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
36:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So a few years later, Stephane publishes a graphic novel featuring Dahina's story of her assault.
36:11 Georgia Hardstark? Nope, no thank you.
36:12 Karen Kilgariff? He does it without permission, without even warning. And she takes legal action. She actually gets the book pulled from the market, but the damage is done. Dahina will later say, quote, "It was like being defiled a second time."
36:26 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, you bet.
36:27 Karen Kilgariff? But that's not the end of Stephane's troubling behavior. And I think this is maybe a step up. So he is a big boaster and a big bragger. And he starts bragging that he somehow managed to get a hold of John Gerard Schaefer's remains.
36:44 Georgia Hardstark? What?
36:44 Karen Kilgariff? His cremains, I guess.
36:47 Georgia Hardstark? And that's the serial killer whose autograph he got, right?
36:49 Karen Kilgariff? Correct. So basically Stephane claims that after Schaefer's execution.
36:56 Karen Kilgariff? That he somehow managed to get a hold of his remains.
36:59 Georgia Hardstark? Like UPS was like, here you go.
37:02 Karen Kilgariff? And you've got to hook up in the what? Like, what are you talking about?
37:05 Georgia Hardstark? Sign for it.
37:07 Karen Kilgariff? Any jail that would put someone to death would not be like, and I guess we'll just be real free and easy.
37:13 Georgia Hardstark? Right. You'd think it would have to be the closest.
37:15 Karen Kilgariff? Next of kin.
37:16 Georgia Hardstark? Next of kin. Thank you.
37:17 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
37:17 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. So he says he has them.
37:19 Karen Kilgariff? And he starts teasing that he's going to give a small portion of those remains to anyone who buys his new book.
37:26 Georgia Hardstark? Oh dude, that's disgusting.
37:28 Karen Kilgariff? So still, and despite this, Stephane enjoys a mostly positive professional reputation. I think it also points to what a strange time, especially the late, the nineties and the late nineties were. That was when like John Wayne Gacy's paintings started getting really popular.
37:47 Georgia Hardstark? This is what was going on before we started this podcast. I feel like even up until then where it's like, we are not into true crime the same way that other people are into true crime.
37:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
37:56 Georgia Hardstark? I think it just shows how, how different the obsession was. And I think what everyone assumed you and I were obsessed with, when really it was something totally different. And thankfully this podcast has shown that.
38:06 Karen Kilgariff? Right. Thankfully, the whole trend of true crime kind of coming to the fore and basically being like, instead of following the story after the fact, it's much more, why are we talking about this in the first place?
38:18 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
38:19 Karen Kilgariff? So we're now, it's 2019 and we are several decades into Stephane Burguant's career. And so 2019, someone makes a French true crime Facebook group. And someone on that Facebook group writes a post basically arguing that Stephane Burguant, while prolific, is a bad writer with questionable talent. And then they go further and they basically cast doubt on his entire background.
38:49 Georgia Hardstark? Who is it?
38:50 Karen Kilgariff? We never find out.
38:51 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
38:52 Karen Kilgariff? Although, and then I wrote, surely the arguments ensued, right?
38:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:56 Karen Kilgariff? Because that is what Facebook is for.
38:57 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
38:58 Karen Kilgariff? Fighting with bots. And so from there.
39:02 Karen Kilgariff? Basically, thirty skeptics begin a separate, private chat to dig deeper. And this is the, basically, the beginning. This is where the Fourth Eye Corporation is born.
39:13 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
39:14 Karen Kilgariff? Because at first, these web sleuths suspect plagiarism. So they start combing through Stephane's books to cross-check them against English-language sources. So they have to do this, like, in a different language. Because the thinking, which is so smart, is the language barrier would make it easier for him to steal from other people's books.
39:33 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
39:34 Karen Kilgariff? They also spend hours poring over Stephane's writing, reaching out to people who he claims he's collaborated with, contacting the prisons to verify his supposed jailhouse interviews, and scouring the internet for recordings of lectures and public appearances that he'd given throughout his career.
39:51 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, man, fact-checking is a bitch.
39:53 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, and there's so, it's decades of a career to fact-check.
39:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
39:58 Karen Kilgariff? The Fourth Eye Corporation eventually concludes that Stephane isn't exactly copying and pasting other writers' words. What he's doing is stealing their life stories and passing them off as his own life story. As one very disgusting example, he claimed he was once splattered with maggots and body parts while visiting at a crime scene as a helicopter lifted off nearby.
40:24 Georgia Hardstark? What?
40:25 Karen Kilgariff? There is a grain of truth to this story, but it's the account of a renowned South African forensic psychologist who it happened to. And that South African forensic psychologist is a woman named Miki Pistorius. Miki Pistorius is actually the aunt of Oscar Pistorius, the famed Olympian who murdered his girlfriend.
40:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
40:49 Karen Kilgariff? Which is very odd, and those things are really connected, yeah. The point is, it did not happen to Stephane. He only wrote about it. So members of the Fourth Eye Corporation are now looking for anyone who can confirm any of Stephane's jailhouse interviews with notorious murderers, which is what he's built his entire career on. They believe that Stephane, who claims to have interviewed around eighty murderers, has actually spoken with less than ten. Some of his details in those conversations also seem ripped off. For example, when he talks about meeting Charles Manson and David Berkowitz, the stories are suspiciously similar to John Douglas's stories and what he wrote about in Mindhunter.
41:32 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
41:33 Karen Kilgariff? When members of the Fourth Eye Corporation reach out to John Douglas to confirm whether Stephane was trained at Quantico, Douglas replies, quote, "Borgois is delusional and an impostor."
41:46 Georgia Hardstark? That guy was spicy.
41:47 Karen Kilgariff? Fuck, I love that guy.
41:48 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
41:48 Karen Kilgariff? It's good. But he's basically just like, no, that's all bullshit.
41:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
41:52 Karen Kilgariff? Then there's Stephane's story about the woman who was murdered, Elaine or Eileen. He called them both names. Members of the Fourth Eye Corporation pick up all the breadcrumbs that Stephane has left about her, where she lived, when she was killed, the idea that her murderer is currently on death row. They scour records to find a victim and a convicted murderer who fit all of the timeline, all of it, and they cannot find anyone. The sleuths eventually conclude there is no Elaine and/or Eileen. As for the photo that Stephane has shared of the two of them together, the sleuths believe
42:32 Karen Kilgariff? that the woman in the photo could be an adult film actress named Dominique St. Clair, who Stephane may have met while he was working in porn in Southern California. That suspicion has not been confirmed one way or another. The sleuths also find out that Stephane does not and has never had John Gerard Schaefer's remains in his possession. Weird brag.
42:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
43:00 Karen Kilgariff? Not true and weird.
43:01 Georgia Hardstark? Like, good, I'm glad that was a lie?
43:04 Karen Kilgariff? For sure.
43:04 Georgia Hardstark? You know?
43:05 Karen Kilgariff? Because what a disturbing fact that would be if it wasn't.
43:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
43:09 Karen Kilgariff? So, these are just a few of the things the Fourth Eye Corporation members end up digging up. There are way too many to mention today. As one Fourth Eye member will later tell The New Yorker, quote, "As soon as we started looking, we found more and more inconsistencies." In any case, in 2020, the Fourth Eye Corporation takes their findings to the public. They post YouTube videos that debunk Stephane's background and expertise bit by bit. They also reach out to different French media outlets, hoping to spread the word. As The New Yorker puts it, quote, "Stephane's story wasn't so much a house of cards as a total teardown."
43:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yikes.
43:49 Karen Kilgariff? So obviously, this is a major PR crisis for him. He's quickly able to get the Fourth Eye Corporation's video taken down by filing some sort of a copyright claim. But by now, the word is spreading, and French reporters are starting to pick up on the story. About a month after the Fourth Eye Corporation drops their bombshell report, and not long before the coronavirus shuts down the entire world,
44:11 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
44:12 Karen Kilgariff? Stephane announces he's shutting down his Facebook page.
44:15 Georgia Hardstark? I'm out.
44:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, forget it.
44:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
44:18 Karen Kilgariff? Everyone's rude. He claims this is to, quote, "devote himself to the most important project of my life," end quote. He does not specify what that project is. And then, in his sign-off, he suggests that there's a conspiracy against him, but he never directly comments on any of the allegations brought by the Fourth Eye Corporation. Before long, journalists are reaching out to give Stephane the chance to explain his side, but he keeps digging himself into a deeper hole. On one hand, Stephane acknowledges his flair for exaggeration and says, quote, "I'm sorry that I lied and exaggerated things, but I never raped or killed anybody," end quote.
44:56 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus, that's your fucking bar? That's the bar you're setting?
45:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that is not relevant in this conversation, sir.
45:05 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's a big yikes.
45:07 Karen Kilgariff? At the same time, he starts changing the details around the Eileen story yet again. He now claims she was a bartender in Florida named Susan Bicrest, who is indeed the victim of serial killer Gerald Stano. But as Lauren Collins of The New Yorker will soon report, quote, "The dates of Bicrest's murder and her killer's arrest didn't align with the Eileen story, and even a cursory glance at photographs of the two women reveal that except for both having blonde hair, they didn't look much alike," end quote. This is his most egregious and disturbing lie, and the fact that he tried to cover it with a real woman's murder will be his final sociopathic hail mary move.
45:51 Karen Kilgariff? Now, it's 2025. Stephane Bourgoin has lost his credibility and lives a mostly quiet life in western France. He has made some media appearances in the last few years. He still seems to be trying to explain himself. But as filmmaker Ben Selkow, who recently made a mini-series on this scandal, puts it, "Stephan's story is a cautionary tale about living a lie in the internet age and, of course, trying to deceive hard-boiled murderinos." That's not, that's not what he actually said.
46:23 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that would've been great.
46:24 Karen Kilgariff? But hard-boiled true crime fans, internet sleuths, the like. Selkow says this, quote, "It's not hard to build something fake, but it's much more difficult to have it persist. Where Stephane is unique is the endurance of it, 40-plus years. It'd be harder in the modern era, with the amount of research available at our fingertips, the amount of skepticism within the true crime community, to have such an enduring con. You can rise, but that Icarus fall comes sooner. But certainly, people are gonna try. We are in the era of scams, and that's not going anywhere." And that's the insane story of disgraced serial killer expert Stephane Bourgoin.
47:09 Georgia Hardstark? Fucking never, like, heard a peep about it.
47:12 Karen Kilgariff? Crazy, right?
47:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
47:14 Karen Kilgariff? So wild.
47:15 Georgia Hardstark? It's like, the motivation is just so confounding, you know?
47:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. The kind of like, "It'll be okay if I just say this one thing."
47:24 Georgia Hardstark? Or, "I need to involve myself more," or, "It's not legitimate somehow," or like, but like, why would you want to put yourself in those shoes?
47:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
47:34 Georgia Hardstark? It's, uh, yeah.
47:37 Karen Kilgariff? Fascinating.
47:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Great job.
47:40 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
47:41 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
47:45 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
47:50 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.
47:54 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know, and if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
48:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.
48:37 Karen Kilgariff? That's simplisafe.com/mfm, and when you order, write in MFM at checkout, and it tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show.
48:45 Georgia Hardstark? SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.
48:47 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. The most annoying thing about dinner is that you have to keep making it.
48:52 Georgia Hardstark? And every single time, you have to figure out what you're going to eat.
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49:53 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
49:57 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so this story is totally different.
49:59 Karen Kilgariff? Great.
50:00 Georgia Hardstark? As it should be.
50:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
50:01 Georgia Hardstark? This story is one from the kind of dark underbelly of British history.
50:07 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
50:07 Georgia Hardstark? This is one that I think you're gonna like because it could totally be like a series that you'd watch.
50:11 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
50:12 Georgia Hardstark? A British, what are they called? Procedural?
50:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
50:15 Georgia Hardstark? It's got British stuff going on.
50:18 Georgia Hardstark? Can I say that anymore? So this infamous heist captured the nation's attention and kept everyone guessing for 50 years.
50:26 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
50:27 Georgia Hardstark? This is the story of the biggest rail heist of all time, the Great Train Robbery. So the main sources I use for this story are reporting from Smithsonian Magazine, the British National Archives, my favorite archive, and the British Transport Police Archives and The Guardian. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.
50:47 Karen Kilgariff? I guess my favorite archives are the British Transport Police Archives.
50:51 Georgia Hardstark? It's gotta be up there.
50:52 Karen Kilgariff? They're so, they're just, they're dated, they're timed.
50:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like if you're gonna be an archive junkie, like you say you are, right? You've got to, you've gotta put them on the top three, for sure.
51:02 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, it's, what do you want? Transport? It's there. British, it's there. Police stuff, right there.
51:08 Georgia Hardstark? Right there. And so this is one of these stories.
51:11 Karen Kilgariff? Great.
51:11 Georgia Hardstark? From those archives.
51:12 Karen Kilgariff? Perfect.
51:13 Georgia Hardstark? Here we are, it's 3 a.m. on August 8th, 1963, and we're on a British mail train heading from Glasgow, Scotland, which we love, to London. The train is nearing the end of its 450-mile journey, which usually takes about five hours, and it's approaching a red signal, or like a stop sign, stop signal, near the village of Cheddington, just darling, which is about 30 miles north of London. So this train is called the Traveling Post Office. It's not just carrying mail from one place to another. Most of the train's 12 cars are actually full of postal workers who are actively sorting letters and packages while in transit. So think like Santa's workshop, but postman and fucking mail.
51:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, this is, the efficiency of this idea.
52:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
52:01 Karen Kilgariff? Is amazing.
52:02 Georgia Hardstark? Like, don't do it in the warehouse and then put it on the train. Do it on the fucking train.
52:06 Karen Kilgariff? Do it on the train.
52:06 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck the warehouse.
52:07 Karen Kilgariff? It's mail, it just keeps coming.
52:09 Georgia Hardstark? It's always gonna be there.
52:10 Karen Kilgariff? Were they always on the train or they had one special trip?
52:13 Georgia Hardstark? No, this was a normal thing. This is like how this train, the mail train, worked for sure.
52:16 Karen Kilgariff? So there could be a person that starts working at the post office that's like, I'm obsessed with trains. And it's like, guess what?
52:22 Georgia Hardstark? You get both, best of both worlds.
52:24 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
52:24 Georgia Hardstark? Bro, okay, okay. Except for this, this night.
52:26 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, right.
52:27 Georgia Hardstark? It's not a good night for them.
52:28 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, okay.
52:28 Georgia Hardstark? So they're sorting, they're actively sorting letters and packages while in transit. And at the very front of the train, there's one additional car. So there's 12 cars and there's one additional car holding high value cargo. Most of this cargo is fucking stone cold cash.
52:44 Karen Kilgariff? Great.
52:44 Georgia Hardstark? On an ordinary day, it would be carrying around like 300,000 pounds, which would be worth about, let me tell you. I'll tell you this one and then you can guess the other ones based on this.
52:55 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
52:56 Georgia Hardstark? So 300,000 pounds normally, which in today's money and dollars would be 8 million.
53:02 Karen Kilgariff? Oh shit.
53:03 Georgia Hardstark? So a lot of fucking money.
53:04 Karen Kilgariff? A ton of money.
53:05 Georgia Hardstark? But this is the first journey following a bank holiday, one of those British fucking bank holidays, which just means it was closed the day before. So a lot more cash has built up. This particular train is carrying about 2 and 1/2 million pounds, which would be worth...
53:22 Karen Kilgariff? Fucking 30 million?
53:25 Georgia Hardstark? 71 million.
53:26 Karen Kilgariff? Kidney.
53:27 Georgia Hardstark? In today's US dollars.
53:28 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
53:29 Georgia Hardstark? Probably not next month's US dollars or next year's US dollars.
53:32 Karen Kilgariff? Look, we can't look to the future anymore. Only the past and only in England.
53:38 Georgia Hardstark? So we do.
53:38 Karen Kilgariff? It's called escaping.
53:40 Georgia Hardstark? And this cash belongs to several large banks, blah, blah, blah. So the red signal at Cheddington is unexpected because it's supposed to, there is a like, um, you know, a signal, red and green, like go or don't go, obviously. And it's usually supposed to be green, but the train sees that it's red and so it slows and comes to a stop. And the train's co-engineer, a man named David Whitby, hops out to see what's going on. Why is it red? When he gets to the signal, he sees that like a, just a regular old glove is actually covering the green light. And the red light is hooked to an external battery, making it light up when it otherwise shouldn't, right? Still doesn't totally understand what he's seeing. And so he heads over to a call box to call the rail line to ask what's going on.
54:24 Georgia Hardstark? And that's when he sees the lines to this phone box have been cut. And then someone grabs him from behind.
54:30 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, and the heist begins.
54:32 Georgia Hardstark? The heist is on.
54:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
54:33 Georgia Hardstark? So the person who grabs him says, quote, "If you shout, I will kill you." And then several other men materialize, all wearing knit masks. They walk David back to the front of the train and reboard with him. And the trains engineer, a man named Jack Mills, actually tries to put up a fight, which like, it's not your money, bro. Don't put up a fight.
54:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
54:54 Georgia Hardstark? But we know that now.
54:55 Karen Kilgariff? What year was it again?
54:56 Georgia Hardstark? Not that it's his fault. 1963.
54:58 Karen Kilgariff? 63.
54:59 Georgia Hardstark? 63.
55:00 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
55:01 Georgia Hardstark? So he tries to put up a fight. And then one of the thieves, and this was totally unplanned, and they, they did not have guns at all. Like, they were not there to shoot the place up or kill anyone. One of the thieves then brutally beats him. Jack Mills. The weapon he uses is sometimes described as a wood cudgel, sometimes as a rubber cosh, and sometimes as an iron crowbar, which is kind of like a club-like weapon. But regardless, Jack suffers a head injury. And once he's subdued, the group of thieves bind the two engineers together, like, kind of warning them, like, "Stop fighting." Like, "Some of these people are crazy." And it turns out, there's 15 hijackers in total.
55:39 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, shit.
55:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
55:41 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
55:42 Georgia Hardstark? So like, one of them's gotta be a little mad.
55:44 Karen Kilgariff? A little off.
55:45 Georgia Hardstark? A little mad, yeah.
55:46 Karen Kilgariff? Maybe seen some shit? Been around the bend?
55:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So the thieves then detach the first two cars, which is the high-yield car and the engine, from the back 10 cars where there are people sorting mail. They don't even know what's happening. And the plan is to get these two cars kind of down the line. But up front, the thieves are having trouble operating the train and getting these two cars to fucking move as they're supposed to. One of the robbers had apparently practiced on an engine, a train engine, when it was a different engine. So it's like-
56:19 Karen Kilgariff? Different model.
56:20 Georgia Hardstark? Bottle rocket. It's like- I've never tried to pick this lock before and it's like, well,
56:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
56:25 Georgia Hardstark? It's a fucking lock.
56:26 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
56:26 Georgia Hardstark? You said you could pick locks.
56:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you have to be generally good at like, uh, hotwiring things.
56:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and more than one thing.
56:33 Karen Kilgariff? Not just your one kind.
56:34 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So the thieves actually have to revive poor Jack Mills, who had just been fucking beaten, unconscious and tied up. And they're like, hey, bro, sorry about that. Um, can you show us how to drive this train? This poor dude.
56:50 Karen Kilgariff? Was Jack Mills, like, go to hell?
56:52 Georgia Hardstark? No, I mean, I think he fucking figured out not to fight with them.
56:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
56:56 Georgia Hardstark? And then, in the meantime, other members of the group start working on entering the secure, high-value car. So the high-value packaged car is secured by iron doors, which, once shut and locked, can only be opened from the inside. And the cargo in the cars is being guarded by four men, but they're unarmed. The iron door is the only security precaution. And, but the thieves are able to use these fucking tools, we don't know exactly, to breach the doors and open the cars.
57:22 Karen Kilgariff? So, sorry, they just had four guys in there, like, warning people against, like, you don't want to be in here?
57:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but they didn't do guns back then, you know, nobody did. And I don't think they do there.
57:32 Karen Kilgariff? Some judo expert? Like, can't they get anybody that's gonna?
57:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
57:36 Karen Kilgariff? If they don't use weapons?
57:37 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
57:38 Karen Kilgariff? I'm just saying, why have guys in there? Then just, like, let them go work on some other part of the train.
57:42 Georgia Hardstark? Give them some pepper spray or something, at least.
57:43 Karen Kilgariff? Something.
57:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Yeah, so exactly, you're like, why aren't these secured better? And actually, by 1963, when this happens, some of these high-value mail cars had been equipped with alarms. But the ones on this particular train are older and don't have that technology. And that is one of the many clues that will ultimately point to the thieves having had some kind of inside help from someone in the postal service.
58:07 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
58:08 Georgia Hardstark? So after breaching the door, three of the thieves come into the car, two holding clubs, one's holding an axe, which is like, I wouldn't jujitsu at a guy with an axe.
58:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, no.
58:18 Georgia Hardstark? You know?
58:18 Karen Kilgariff? It's too, what, axe as a, as a weapon hand to hand is too wild.
58:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's not a fair fight. They're followed by more men, all of them wearing masks, and they immediately subdued the four guards and pushed them to the back of the car. And while this is happening, other thieves are still at the engine. They get the train moving and they move it about a mile further down the line where their getaway vehicles are parked. So all of this happens really quickly, like within 10 minutes. And once they stop the train again, the thieves then form a human chain, quickly unloading 120 sacks of cash from the car to the waiting Land Rovers, their getaway cars.
58:54 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
58:55 Georgia Hardstark? Then the masked thieves tell the workers in the car to sit and wait for 30 minutes before calling the police. Then they drive off into the night. At the time, those like 15-ish thieves had no idea how much cash was in the bag. It's only when the dust settles and the investigation begins that it becomes clear that the total that they had stolen had been about 2.5 million pounds, which would be worth about 71 million in today's money.
59:22 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my god.
59:23 Georgia Hardstark? So the fact that the thieves told the train personnel to wait 30 minutes actually winds up being another clue that the investigators can use. The case is assigned mainly to Scotland Yard's Flying Squad. They're named because they fly between London's boroughs to solve major crimes. And since we're talking about fucking episodes we've covered shit on before.
59:44 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
59:45 Georgia Hardstark? So I talked about the Flying Squad in episode 446, I'm Michael Caine, when I covered the Hatton Garden Jewel heist that happened decades later.
59:55 Karen Kilgariff? Just a legendary episode on this podcast.
59:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, so lots of heists, lots of Michael Caine.
1:00:00 Karen Kilgariff? The most Michael Caine you could get in a podcast.
1:00:02 Georgia Hardstark? What more do you need? So as soon as the Flying Squad are called to the scene, they are like, well, if they told them to wait 30 minutes, only 30 minutes, that means their fucking hideout is probably close by. So they knew they'd be off the roads in about 30 minutes.
1:00:14 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
1:00:14 Georgia Hardstark? So the press learns about this story very early on. The brazenness of this heist causes a huge sensation. And remember that this is post-war recession era England. So people are actually like cheering them on and kind of excited. It also reminds them of an old school like gangster caper from the 1920s.
1:00:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:00:34 Georgia Hardstark? You know, so I think people are like... Good for them.
1:00:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, go take that money.
1:00:39 Georgia Hardstark? Get that money.
1:00:39 Karen Kilgariff? redistribute that money, please.
1:00:41 Georgia Hardstark? Steal the money from the banks. They stole from us. We don't care.
1:00:44 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:00:44 Georgia Hardstark? So on August 13th, five days after the heist, the investigators get a break when a farmer calls to report suspicious activity at the farm next door about 30 minutes from the train in Buckinghamshire, England. He's seen people coming and going, which is weird because the farm's supposed to be put up for sale. So you gotta never underestimate a nosey neighbor. Like, they'll talk.
1:01:06 Karen Kilgariff? Especially like, uh, country stuff.
1:01:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:01:09 Karen Kilgariff? Where you, you kind of need to keep an eye out because there's like a quarter of a mile between you and anywhere.
1:01:14 Georgia Hardstark? It's better to hide in an apartment block, it seems like.
1:01:17 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:01:17 Georgia Hardstark? Where like, people mind their own fucking business.
1:01:19 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:01:20 Georgia Hardstark? And people come in and out every day and you'll never see them again.
1:01:23 Karen Kilgariff? They see masks all the time.
1:01:24 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
1:01:25 Karen Kilgariff? Or if you're wearing a ski mask, why don't you just go to a ski resort and hide there?
1:01:31 Georgia Hardstark? Man, the pandemic was great for people doing heists, probably, right?
1:01:34 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
1:01:34 Georgia Hardstark? It was great for people who had just gotten Botox and needed to cover their bruises. I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know from experience, but I'll just tell you.
1:01:41 Karen Kilgariff? No, you're not pulling that exact example for any specific reason.
1:01:45 Georgia Hardstark? So when police arrive at the farmhouse, it's deserted, but there are signs that people have been there very recently and left it in a hurry. Outside the house, police find many empty mailbags next to a three-foot hole and shovel. And they also find the getaway Land Rovers parked on the property. So like, they were tipped off and fucking ran. What?
1:02:03 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry, just the
1:02:04 Georgia Hardstark? No.
1:02:05 Karen Kilgariff? The visual, like, so they went and put all their stuff in a hole and then the cops are coming, so they went and dug it back out of the hole?
1:02:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, they're just like, empty these bags, quick. Oh, shit.
1:02:15 Karen Kilgariff? Hurry up.
1:02:16 Georgia Hardstark? Inside the house, police find more clues. It looks like the group was gonna stay there for a while. That's what their plan was. And there is an old school photo of like, you know when you see like, what people buy at the grocery store in, in fucking England in a week? Like, what families spend? And it shows you like, they have that.
1:02:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:02:32 Georgia Hardstark? Of this. And I love it.
1:02:33 Karen Kilgariff? So there's
1:02:34 Georgia Hardstark? I love those.
1:02:34 Karen Kilgariff? Some cans of beans for breakfast?
1:02:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:02:37 Karen Kilgariff? They love eating beans.
1:02:38 Georgia Hardstark? What else?
1:02:38 Karen Kilgariff? They love beans, toast. So and they need some bread?
1:02:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:02:41 Karen Kilgariff? They need sausages?
1:02:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:02:42 Karen Kilgariff? Just to blinks and links, they could drape them all around the kitchen.
1:02:45 Georgia Hardstark? Right. And here's a part of that. So the fridge and the pantry are totally stocked and most of the surfaces have been wiped clean of fingerprints.
1:02:53 Karen Kilgariff? Smart.
1:02:54 Georgia Hardstark? They found a fingerprint on one thing you didn't name, because I don't think
1:02:57 Karen Kilgariff? A potato?
1:02:58 Georgia Hardstark? No, not a potato. I think British people would be embarrassed about this. A bottle of ketchup. Oh, British people don't like ketchup? Or do they only not like ketchup on fries?
1:03:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, they don't, they don't normally eat ketchup? Or they didn't traditionally?
1:03:14 Georgia Hardstark? Ketchup's embarrassing that you got caught via condiment that like,
1:03:17 Karen Kilgariff? Is it?
1:03:18 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know. I just, it stuck out to me.
1:03:20 Karen Kilgariff? It should have been malt vinegar.
1:03:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, it was like something like, you know, brown gravy or something like.
1:03:25 Karen Kilgariff? That's more them.
1:03:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it's like, of course, ketchup fucking told on you.
1:03:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:03:28 Georgia Hardstark? Like.
1:03:29 Karen Kilgariff? Loudmouth American ketchup was like.
1:03:31 Georgia Hardstark? We've never liked you, and here you are.
1:03:33 Karen Kilgariff? What about over here?
1:03:34 Georgia Hardstark? Fucking snitch.
1:03:35 Karen Kilgariff? But imagine how glorious it would have been if there was just like one thumbprint on a potato and they found it.
1:03:42 Georgia Hardstark? Can you thumbprint a potato? Or can you fingerprint a potato?
1:03:45 Karen Kilgariff? It would implicate all the other people that either touched, shopped for, or farmed that potato.
1:03:50 Georgia Hardstark? And the potato, because it's got kind of a thumbprinty, okay.
1:03:53 Karen Kilgariff? And a personality.
1:03:54 Georgia Hardstark? Stop it. The other fingerprint they found is from a game of Monopoly.
1:03:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:03:59 Georgia Hardstark? And they think they were playing the Monopoly with real money, the real money they had stolen. Just like, classic.
1:04:04 Karen Kilgariff? That's.
1:04:04 Georgia Hardstark? Classic thieves.
1:04:05 Karen Kilgariff? I'm so sorry to say that's a great celebration of your heist.
1:04:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:04:09 Karen Kilgariff? Now we play Monopoly with real money.
1:04:11 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
1:04:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:04:11 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. So these fingerprints lead police immediately to a suspect named Roger Cordry. He had just rented an apartment in Bournemouth, a town on the southern coast of England. And when he's arrested, police realize that he's hiding a car key in his rectum.
1:04:29 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
1:04:30 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
1:04:30 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, hey.
1:04:31 Georgia Hardstark? The key unlocks a car that holds his share of the cash. It's just like, like, nobody gets away. Like, this is an immediate, I hate to tell you this. Like, some people have some luck here and there, and I'm gonna tell you all about them, but like, that's just an immediate.
1:04:44 Karen Kilgariff? It's a key shitshow.
1:04:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, exactly. And actually, this relatively small amount of money is most of what winds up being recovered from the heist. So actually, not a lot of money is ever recovered.
1:04:55 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, then it is successful in some ways.
1:04:57 Georgia Hardstark? They all split it up, who knows what. This guy Roger doesn't give anyone away. He does not snitch. I mean, if you're gonna put a fucking key in your rectum, you're not a snitcher.
1:05:05 Karen Kilgariff? You are ready to get the job done for the job at hand.
1:05:09 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:05:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:05:09 Georgia Hardstark? However, from the fingerprints and knowing who works with who, police quickly arrest 11 other people. When they piece everything together, they learn that the mastermind of a whole robbery is a career criminal named Bruce Reynolds. And we're to assume that they're all career criminals, so, fine. And Bruce is fucking in the wind. No one can find him. He seemingly left the country. However, most, although not all of the thieves, are charged, convicted, and sentenced mostly for about 30 years, while police are still working to track him and two others down. Among those who are caught in this initial sweep is a man named Charlie Wilson. So after being sentenced in April of 1964, 30 years, he escapes prison. And this was
1:05:54 Georgia Hardstark? a big sentence back then for them, especially because they didn't use guns. So, like, I think there were an example, like, you can't, you know.
1:06:01 Karen Kilgariff? For sure. Well, because it's post office, so you can't, that's a federal, I'm assuming. Here it is, so over there it probably is.
1:06:08 Georgia Hardstark? It's like a tough-on-crime kind of a thing.
1:06:10 Karen Kilgariff? Right. And don't think that you're gonna get your friends together and start heisting, because we'll really make your life hell.
1:06:16 Georgia Hardstark? But he escapes from prison when a gang of three men break into the prison and get him out. There's a couple of prison breaks going on.
1:06:23 Karen Kilgariff? Outside in is a pretty badass prison.
1:06:25 Georgia Hardstark? To break in. Has to be easier than breaking out, right?
1:06:29 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know. I mean, yeah, I guess.
1:06:32 Georgia Hardstark? Well, Charlie escapes to Canada with his family, is recaptured four years later because his poor wife, like, finally calls her parents at home, because she probably misses them, but guess whose phone is tapped?
1:06:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, those parents.
1:06:45 Georgia Hardstark? Like, that sucks. You can never call your, like, parents again?
1:06:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that does suck. And it's also such good policing on their, on Scotland Yard's part.
1:06:54 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you, Scotland Yard's part.
1:06:56 Karen Kilgariff? Like Liverpool's, what's it called? Because, yeah, and also, for the, so four years later, there's still a tap?
1:07:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I wonder when, yeah, you gotta wonder.
1:07:05 Karen Kilgariff? It feels like here, they're always like, sorry, we did it for 48 hours, bye.
1:07:08 Georgia Hardstark? Totally, totally. So they're able to track Charlie Wilson down, he's put back in prison, and eventually he's released. He moves to Costa del Sol in Spain. Which is popular with British criminals because of a lapsed extradition treaty. And eventually, he's killed there by a hitman in 1990.
1:07:25 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my god.
1:07:26 Georgia Hardstark? So let's get a movie about his life, please.
1:07:28 Karen Kilgariff? I feel like the movie is called Sexy Beast.
1:07:30 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:07:31 Karen Kilgariff? Even though it might not specifically be.
1:07:33 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:07:33 Karen Kilgariff? That's such a good movie.
1:07:34 Georgia Hardstark? Well, Charlie isn't the only member of the gang to escape from prison. A year later, in July of 1965, a man named Ronnie Biggs scales a prison wall and manages to escape basically in the back of a garbage removal van.
1:07:47 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
1:07:47 Georgia Hardstark? And this guy, the more I read about him, uh, the more fascinating he is.
1:07:51 Karen Kilgariff? Ronnie Biggs?
1:07:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, Ronnie Biggs didn't give a fuck.
1:07:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:07:54 Georgia Hardstark? There's a photo of him in his wheelchair at the funeral for one of these guys as an old man, giving the like two finger fuck you.
1:08:01 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:08:01 Georgia Hardstark? He's an old man. He looks like he's from The Exorcist and he's giving a fucking middle finger, a British middle finger.
1:08:08 Karen Kilgariff? Fight like hell, Ronnie Biggs.
1:08:09 Georgia Hardstark? He's good.
1:08:10 Karen Kilgariff? Fight like hell.
1:08:11 Georgia Hardstark? So he, once he escapes, uses some of his money that he had made from the, the heist to get plastic surgery to change his face.
1:08:19 Karen Kilgariff? Amazing.
1:08:20 Georgia Hardstark? Then he, I know, he travels all over and then he ends up in Brazil where he gets married and to like this young stripper and eventually has a son. And in Brazil, this makes him exempt from extradition.
1:08:33 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
1:08:34 Georgia Hardstark? But I think they were actually in love because she fought for him the rest of his life.
1:08:38 Karen Kilgariff? I believe it. They sound like a, just like a firecracker couple.
1:08:42 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. In 1978, he does the vocals for a Sex Pistols song called No One Is Innocent. However, I have to say that Johnny and Sid had left Sex Pistols by then. So like how, how was Sex, you know, and it's also sounds like your British dad trying to sing a Sex Pistols song at karaoke. It's not, you know, it's fine.
1:09:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:09:05 Georgia Hardstark? But it's not.
1:09:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. What producer thought that concept was gonna really get it, get him a hit?
1:09:10 Georgia Hardstark? But I think the, the point was like, he was a celebrity, like everywhere.
1:09:14 Karen Kilgariff? People knew.
1:09:15 Georgia Hardstark? People loved him.
1:09:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:09:16 Georgia Hardstark? So in 1981, a British group of ex-soldiers tried to bring him back to the UK. But because of this legal loophole, he's able to return to Brazil. He lives fairly openly like a celebrity until 2000. 2001 and then he returns to the UK. He's an old man. He's resentenced. He serves time until he's clearly about to die and he's released and dies in 2013 at the age of 84 without ever showing remorse.
1:09:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:09:43 Georgia Hardstark? Hence the British fuck you. He just didn't give a fuck.
1:09:46 Karen Kilgariff? And sorry, do we think that his cut of the money is somewhere?
1:09:51 Georgia Hardstark? He might have spent it all and that's why he came back to the UK. I don't know.
1:09:54 Karen Kilgariff? He was like, yeah, what there's.
1:09:55 Georgia Hardstark? Ran out and.
1:09:56 Karen Kilgariff? I had my fun.
1:09:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. So I had mentioned this guy, Bruce Reynolds, who had just taken off and was in the wind. He spends the first six months after the heist, moving quietly around in England, waiting to get a fake passport. Then he flees to Mexico where his wife and son join him and they live in Mexico and then Canada until 1968 and then their money runs out. And so they return to the UK. Bruce is arrested in 1968 and is sentenced to 25 years in prison. Bruce's, this is just a rando like note, like you had in yours. Bruce's son Nick is a member of the band Alabama Three, who wrote the song, "Woke Up This Morning," which is the theme song for The Sopranos.
1:10:39 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, what?
1:10:40 Georgia Hardstark? Just randomly.
1:10:41 Karen Kilgariff? That's a great piece of trivia.
1:10:43 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God. That's trivia night at your local pub that we just fucking gave you.
1:10:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, that's right.
1:10:48 Georgia Hardstark? So you owe us a pint.
1:10:49 Karen Kilgariff? And also, that's an intense trivia night. That's the deepest.
1:10:53 Georgia Hardstark? Deep cut.
1:10:54 Karen Kilgariff? Where it's like.
1:10:54 Georgia Hardstark? Someone knows that.
1:10:55 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, first of all, do you know Ronnie Biggs?
1:10:57 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:10:57 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:10:58 Georgia Hardstark? Someone on your team. That's why you have to have a diverse team.
1:11:01 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:11:01 Georgia Hardstark? People you wouldn't hang out with in normal life.
1:11:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
1:11:04 Georgia Hardstark? Because they know weird shit and they won't stop talking about it.
1:11:06 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:11:06 Georgia Hardstark? About music. That guy will get you a free pitcher.
1:11:10 Karen Kilgariff? But also just like valor.
1:11:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:11:13 Karen Kilgariff? True pub valor.
1:11:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and you appreciate it. You're cool.
1:11:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:11:17 Georgia Hardstark? So years later.
1:11:18 Karen Kilgariff? Bruce Reynolds will say that he was motivated, of course, by the money, but also he wanted to do something big and stunning. And he'd been inspired by the 1950 robbery of a Brink's truck in Boston. And he said, quote, "We wanted to do something as spectacular as that. We wanted to draw our line in the sand. It's the same madness, I suppose, that drives people to bivouac on the north face of the Eiger," end quote, which basically means set up camp on a fucking mountain that you just like to, like, it's adrenaline. It's an adrenaline rush. Yes.
1:11:48 Georgia Hardstark? But instead, you're getting money instead of frostbite.
1:11:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:11:51 Georgia Hardstark? I know what I would fucking pick.
1:11:53 Karen Kilgariff? I know for sure.
1:11:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:11:54 Karen Kilgariff? Wait, which one? Frostbite?
1:11:57 Georgia Hardstark? No, absolutely not.
1:11:58 Karen Kilgariff? Exactly. I also think-
1:12:00 Georgia Hardstark? I don't need to lose a toe. Have you seen these? They're my fucking moneymaker.
1:12:03 Karen Kilgariff? All that up. That's your safety net right there.
1:12:07 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
1:12:08 Karen Kilgariff? But also, it's that idea, I think, because there is a romance to it. And there is that kind of like, you know, we, they didn't have guns. They weren't there to hurt people.
1:12:17 Georgia Hardstark? They weren't supposed, no one was supposed to get hurt.
1:12:18 Karen Kilgariff? It was, we've all seen the movie a thousand times. We're just like, we're gonna do one last one. We're gonna get that money. We're gonna, we're gonna get our cut because we know that in life, it's not like we're gonna go back to school and get a new job.
1:12:31 Georgia Hardstark? And no more small time, you know, street criminal. Let's fucking do something big.
1:12:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:12:35 Georgia Hardstark? And get it.
1:12:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:12:36 Georgia Hardstark? So eventually Bruce Reynolds and a couple of the other crew members who had initially evaded capture are caught and sentenced. So in the decades following the great train robbery, there is one enduring mystery, which is who was the person on the inside who helped the gang know which train to strike because of that, that thing that the bank holiday, having twice as much money as it was supposed to the next day, where to strike it and how. Like, and, you know, also the, the train that didn't have alarms on it, like, they had, there was an insider, for sure. And this person only ever communicated with three members of the gang, which is smart, all of them who claimed not to know his name. And everyone
1:13:19 Georgia Hardstark? referred to him either as the Ulsterman or the Irishman. Ulster basically means Northern Ireland.
1:13:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you knew that.
1:13:26 Georgia Hardstark? Uh huh.
1:13:26 Karen Kilgariff? You're so Irish. I knew that. But then when I went to call Derry, uh, Derry, I looked at the map, said London Derry, and everyone-
1:13:34 Georgia Hardstark? You lost your Irish passport.
1:13:35 Karen Kilgariff? I lost every, anything that I've ever had. And I think about it constantly. And when I see clips of the show Dairy Girls, it makes me go. Because it's happening again. It's all happening.
1:13:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, no, I feel it. I feel you. But not this time.
1:13:48 Karen Kilgariff? Nope. It's all different now. 2025, baby.
1:13:51 Georgia Hardstark? However, it's also a term some Irish people take issue with, so.
1:13:54 Karen Kilgariff? Like Ulstermen?
1:13:54 Georgia Hardstark? Ulstermen, so, yeah.
1:13:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:13:56 Georgia Hardstark? Fair, fair warning. I'm Jewish. Leave me alone. Okay.
1:14:00 Georgia Hardstark? Uh, it's not until 2014 that the identity of this insider is ever revealed. So it's at this point that another of the gang member, a man named Gordon Goody, who had served his sentence, he was like off the grid. He would not talk to people. He's living a quiet life in Spain, countryside with his wife and five dogs. He's like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. But he comes forward eventually in a documentary called A Tale of Two Thieves. So this guy Gordon Goody says that the insider who helped them, basically, he gives the documentary filmmakers as much information as he has, and they're able to track down this person. The only information he has is because when he was one of the three thieves
1:14:42 Georgia Hardstark? going to meet this insider to get information from him, and they had met in Kensington Garden in London, it was a warm day, and this insider went to go get everyone ice creams, which is like so darling, right?
1:14:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:14:56 Georgia Hardstark? But he dropped his glasses case, and Gordon Goody said when he picked them up, he saw the name of the insider in the glasses and always remembered it. And so the documentary makers hired two private investigators to search through, like, who had worked at the post office back then, you know, who had that name, and the name was Patrick McKenna, and who looked like what Gordon Goody remembered. And so they were able to find this guy named Patrick McKenna, who had been 43 at the time, who was older than most of the crew. He didn't, he wasn't on the train. He wasn't one of the robbers. He just gave them information for money. And by the time Gordon Goody comes forward, he's like, Patrick McKenna had already died, so he doesn't like feel terrible about it.
1:15:38 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:15:38 Georgia Hardstark? So when the documentary filmmakers reveal this to Patrick McKenna's family, they are flabbergasted and also like, well, he wasn't, he didn't have money. He wasn't a rich man. He was a quiet church-going man. He like. Simple life, he didn't even have a car and he worked at the post office until his retirement. And so they're like, well, maybe he felt guilty and donated the money to the Catholic Church. Maybe the money got stolen from him. Like, that is a mystery of like, what was Patrick McKenna's motivation and what happened to the money?
1:16:09 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
1:16:09 Georgia Hardstark? Which like, oh, to be his grandchild.
1:16:11 Karen Kilgariff? I know.
1:16:11 Georgia Hardstark? Tell me everything.
1:16:12 Karen Kilgariff? Because that's what I think of all these heists, where it's like, the people that get away or you never hear about it again.
1:16:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:16:17 Karen Kilgariff? It just means that there's like, some apartment somewhere.
1:16:22 Georgia Hardstark? That doesn't know it has.
1:16:23 Karen Kilgariff? On the, like, on the east end of London.
1:16:25 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:16:25 Karen Kilgariff? Or they know fully and it's just like, we don't spend this.
1:16:28 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:16:29 Karen Kilgariff? In any weird, showy way.
1:16:31 Georgia Hardstark? No.
1:16:31 Karen Kilgariff? It's just like, you just pull down a gold bar, you bring it in, or you get it changed out.
1:16:36 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:16:37 Karen Kilgariff? And you vary evenly and calmly.
1:16:39 Georgia Hardstark? Slowly. Don't be flashy. Flashy's so obvious. Especially when you like, live at, you know, you're a post office person, and then suddenly you're driving a Mustang? Like, come on, guy.
1:16:48 Karen Kilgariff? Just break it down. You can get that in 20 years. You can't get, can't get it in five.
1:16:52 Georgia Hardstark? No. Now, the other mystery is who of the 15-person gang beat the train engineer, Jack Mills. Later, most of the thieves will say that they didn't agree with the decision to beat him so brutally. It was not in the plan at all and they were, and they very much regret it. Jack Mills survives his injuries and mostly physically recovers, but he's clearly traumatized. And then he sadly dies of leukemia in 1970. It's just like, tragedy after tragedy.
1:17:21 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:17:22 Georgia Hardstark? And Gordon Goody doesn't snitch on the guy, but basically, by process of elimination, you're able to tell which of the thieves beat him. But there, it's nobody that I've talked about today. He says that Jack Mills getting hurt was his biggest regret from the heist, and that those he's been in touch with from the heist and the decades since feel the same. He says, quote, "The fact the driver was hurt, that's the thing I regret. Nobody was going to get hurt. We were gentlemen robbers. When Jack Mills fell and hit his head, we all looked out for him." Which is like, did he hit his head, or did he get hit in the head?
1:17:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, right. Did he get his head beaten in?
1:17:57 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Charlie bandaged it up for him and Tony gave him a cigarette and sat with him. Him, we knew it changed everything. I was choked, choked, end quote.
1:18:06 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
1:18:07 Georgia Hardstark? But other than that, Goody has no regrets. And that is the story of the biggest rail heist of all time, the great train robbery.
1:18:15 Karen Kilgariff? They got away with it. Oh, I like that story a lot.
1:18:18 Georgia Hardstark? Who would you cast in it? We already know.
1:18:20 Karen Kilgariff? I mean.
1:18:21 Georgia Hardstark? Pie in the sky.
1:18:22 Karen Kilgariff? Cause it feels like they were, if, if the one guy was 43 and he was the oldest.
1:18:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:18:28 Karen Kilgariff? Then we get to go into a full, is Paul Mescal one of the leading people?
1:18:32 Georgia Hardstark? Well, we got Irish and English people. So like, we can kind of pick from.
1:18:36 Karen Kilgariff? Barry.
1:18:36 Georgia Hardstark? Keown? Keown?
1:18:38 Karen Kilgariff? Baby.
1:18:38 Georgia Hardstark? What's his name? Keegan?
1:18:41 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, you know, who'd be.
1:18:42 Georgia Hardstark? Keogan, I think. Keogan, yeah, something like that. Who'd be good is Andrew.
1:18:46 Karen Kilgariff? Garfield?
1:18:46 Georgia Hardstark? No, you know, the hot priest, Andrew Scott.
1:18:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:18:49 Georgia Hardstark? Just put him anywhere. I don't care where, let him, but let him be on the flying squad. Like, that would be hot.
1:18:53 Karen Kilgariff? Let him be the 43 year old that's like the voice of reason and all the boys. You've got the youngsters.
1:18:58 Georgia Hardstark? Totally, but except he dropped his sunglasses case. You know?
1:19:03 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:19:03 Georgia Hardstark? Can you imagine? I'm gonna go get some ice creams.
1:19:06 Karen Kilgariff? He's the type to get ice creams and he's the type that actually writes his name in the sunglasses case. Like that little patch of white where it's like, if found, please return to.
1:19:15 Georgia Hardstark? Shit.
1:19:16 Karen Kilgariff? And he's like, I might be a, a major criminal, but I'm also kind of a nerd. So go ahead and return these glasses.
1:19:22 Georgia Hardstark? Shows what a mastermind he is.
1:19:24 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. That's right.
1:19:25 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:19:26 Karen Kilgariff? Meanwhile, I won't put my name on the suitcase tag that you absolutely need if you want to get that suitcase returned when the airline has lost your suitcase.
1:19:34 Georgia Hardstark? Or you can put an air tag in your suitcase.
1:19:36 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh.
1:19:37 Georgia Hardstark? And keep track of that shit yourself.
1:19:38 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's true.
1:19:39 Georgia Hardstark? Right?
1:19:39 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know.
1:19:40 Georgia Hardstark? Listen, we're giving you all kinds of tips. We're telling you how not to get scammed.
1:19:43 Karen Kilgariff? We're trying to teach you how to get away with a great train robbery.
1:19:46 Georgia Hardstark? And we wish you would.
1:19:47 Karen Kilgariff? And we wish you a merry Christmas. Stay sexy.
1:19:52 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
1:19:55 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:19:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, what?
1:19:59 Karen Kilgariff? Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:20:08 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right Production.
1:20:10 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
1:20:12 Karen Kilgariff? Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle-Crayton.
1:20:14 Georgia Hardstark? Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
1:20:17 Karen Kilgariff? This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.
1:20:19 Georgia Hardstark? Our researchers are Maren McClashern and Ally Elkin.
1:20:22 Karen Kilgariff? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:20:25 Georgia Hardstark? Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:20:29 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:20:36 Karen Kilgariff? Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
1:20:41 Georgia Hardstark? With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date, all in one search.
1:20:47 Karen Kilgariff? You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.
1:20:50 Georgia Hardstark? Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.
1:20:55 Karen Kilgariff? Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye.
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Previous Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 34: Thirty Let The Bodies Hit The Four Next MFM Minisode 425 Page updated November 4, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated