467 - Nipper & The Hat

On today’s episode, Karen tells the story of the Kray twins and Georgia covers the Tenerife airport disaster. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Cool fall nights always make me want to entertain more. A few friends around the table, maybe a fire outside when the sun goes down. Before everyone comes over, I stop at Total Wine & More.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Right now, there's a cranberry-flavored wine, a crisp apple wine, even a pumpkin spice cream that's perfect in coffee after dinner. And with the lowest prices, I can bring home a few different fall flavors for everyone to try. Find your favorite fall flavors at the lowest prices at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. Must be 21.

• 1:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  And welcome.

• 1:28Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:30Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:32Speaker 00

  We're your sincere podcasting friends.

• 1:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, hi.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Hey, happy Valentine's Day.

• 1:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It's pretty much Valentine's Day.

• 1:39Speaker 00

  I mean, in your world, it probably is.

• 1:41Georgia Hardstark?

  It probably is. What are you doing for Valentine's Day, everyone?

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Hey, what do you like about Valentine's Day?

• 1:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Not making reservations for restaurants that are packed that you don't want to go to, anyway. And everyone's miserable, including especially the servers.

• 1:56Speaker 00

  The servers, the couples, the singles. Everybody loses on Valentine's Day.

• 2:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Stay home, stay home.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  Nothing's ever good enough.

• 2:07Georgia Hardstark?

  So cool.

• 2:07Speaker 00

  When's the last great Valentine's Day that you've ever had?

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Great? What do we mean by great?

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Well, maybe like an early peak one. You don't have to include like adult relationships, but kind of like...

• 2:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I honestly don't think I remember a single Valentine's Day.

• 2:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:25Georgia Hardstark?

  There was a KFC on once, but it wasn't Vince, so who gives a shit?

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 2:30Speaker 00

  That was more just like somebody that thought of a good, bad gift?

• 2:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. What about you?

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, no. No great ones. I'm sure there was people that made nice efforts along the way.

• 2:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  I was really hoping you had a story about, and then someone was like, come down to the ravine with me and whatever.

• 2:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And they murdered me? No. Ravine, it's like the least romantic spot.

• 2:52Speaker 00

  Well, we just had a ravine behind our high school.

• 2:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  You know?

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:56Speaker 00

  People would go down there and get high and have important discussions.

• 2:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah, we did that. We had like a wash, like the LA River kind of a thing going, which just still isn't romantic, unfortunately.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  Do you think that maybe all teens have that kind of heartbreak and disappointment because they think that's what's supposed to happen? And it kind of is never really happening for most of them?

• 3:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Valentine's Day or ravines?

• 3:17Speaker 00

  Like Valentine's Day victories.

• 3:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  Ravines are definitely happening for teens.

• 3:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I really can tell you're 29, you have high hopes every year for Valentine's Day.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, and then you just are like, it's not gonna, it's not gonna happen.

• 3:33Speaker 00

  The idea that like you're, you're going to get a bouquet of roses from your secret admirer at your doorstep is, I think, the thing that is.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  Has kept this country alive up until this year.

• 3:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I met a dude on Valentine's Day, and I do think our relationship lasted longer than it needed to because of that. Like somehow it was like kismet and like somehow it was like meant to be because we met on Valentine's Day. However, we had met on like February 16th, I would have been like a year in, I would have been like, oh, this isn't working.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  It's fine, just a late winter relationship.

• 4:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Instead, it was three years in that didn't need to happen.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  I have to.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You know who you are.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  And you still need to apologize.

• 4:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, here we are.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Whoops. Is this celebrating or are we doing something to? We have something to celebrate.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  What? Oh, yeah, we do. Like, what? What do we do? Oh, yeah, we have a little announcement to make. Speaking of hearts. Hey.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  And relationships.

• 4:29Georgia Hardstark?

  And relationships. Oh, my God. We want to give you guys some exciting news. On February 5th, we announced our new partnership with iHeartRadio. It came out in the public. Yay.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  Yes, we are so excited to begin this partnership with them, this podcast journey. That means, yes, we will be at the iHeartRadio Awards this year. And yes, we will both be doing musical numbers individually.

• 4:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Did I sign something? I don't think I.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that's all in the contract.

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  Dude, full singing career starting for you right now.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  It's time.

• 5:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to be on the Wicked Park 2.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  You will.

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  OK, well, that's all I care about.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  Also in the contract.

• 5:06Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, great.

• 5:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, new beginnings, exciting.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Positive relationship vibes.

• 5:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  It's what we're all about as adults.

• 5:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, this little company that could, Exactly Right Media of ours, you know, we're just, we're doing it and we're trying it and we're pushing it and we're following through.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  As one should in relationships.

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  As you should, but, you know, it's still the little engine that could as far as, you know, podcast networks go. And we hope that in the next year or two, we get to bring you guys some really fucking awesome new podcasts. That's always the name of the game. New, exciting ones that we, like, freak out when we hear pitched to us. And so that's the whole point of this.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  There really are some exciting new podcasts that are coming out. So it's great now that we have our feet on solid ground and we have our ad distribution all sorted out and we can just do business as usual.

• 6:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Now, here's something else that we need to talk about in terms of love.

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  OK.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  People who love us sent us, because we demanded it, ceramic gifts for our ninth anniversary. And we have gotten so many that twice we have featured these ceramics on this show.

• 6:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Now so many that we think we might have to split off and do a separate video featuring just ceramics.

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I think so.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  That's how many we've gotten.

• 6:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  But you guys like these ceramics too. So we just wanted to really quick read some comments from the internet with you guys looking at these ceramics that we've posted because.

• 6:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Those were lovely, too. They all gave me a dopamine hit, looking at all the beautiful presents we got. And these also like gave the same thing.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  Yes. So here's one from Deanna underscore M, who says, while listening to Georgia and Karen unveiling and describing all the ceramic art, I just imagine the respective artists listening, beaming with pride, and probably shedding a few tears at KNG's excitement. We lift each other up. Heart emoji. Isn't that sweet?

• 7:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so lovely. Well, Alex Whitney on Instagram said, I thought this was the craziest merch drop for a second. Someone, which Music ATT said, need the microphone pipe. Oh, my God. And like, how great would that be if that was our new merch is just a line of pipes?

• 7:18Speaker 00

  That we go into manufacturing ceramic, very large ceramic, microphone shaped pipes.

• 7:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Why not?

• 7:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, we are not busy.

• 7:25Georgia Hardstark?

  No, next stage of our careers.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Come on, everybody.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  A strain of Murderino weed would be great, too.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  That's right. People were freaking, really freaking out over the precious moments figurine. And the Po log said, I came, all caps, running over to IG to see the ceramics and they did not disappoint. What talented listeners.

• 7:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  And then Cordy Gal wrote, please, I want the crock. The historical crock.

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  We're using these mugs now. They're like part of, they're part of it now.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  This is just like every mug that I saw every mom drink coffee out of in the 70s.

• 8:00Georgia Hardstark?

  You can smell the cigarette smoke that is, comes with them. You can go to Instagram and check out all of the beautiful ceramics that have come. And then stay tuned in the future for more of that stuff because we have to, we have to. There's so much.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  We, we simply must. Now, because it's a holiday and we are celebrating, the one way we really like to celebrate is by eating on mic. And so we decided that once again, we're going to try some of the weird Valentine snacks that the, I don't know, the confectionery world decides to put out every year for Valentine's Day.

• 8:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Insists on putting out weird because it can't just be good.

• 8:34Speaker 00

  No.

• 8:35Georgia Hardstark?

  It has to be weird. And I'm just reading the three that we have listed here and I'm terrified. And I don't like the words that are going together. And I don't like the feeling of my mouth already.

• 8:45Speaker 00

  Well, you're gonna have to eat five of each.

• 8:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's try it.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 8:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, let's do it. Alejandro, bring it in. Thank you. Oh, my God. That's so cute.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 8:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, the one I'm most scared of are these ones, the Krabby Patty gummies.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  It's just candy.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not, isn't a Krabby Patty crab?

• 9:06Speaker 00

  No.

• 9:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, it's just gummies.

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that's fine, I can handle it. It's like a little hamburger gummy thing, which I always thought was cute. I was sad that like hamburger gummies and pizza gummies that just look like that, you know? Those like didn't take off until I was older.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Like just a little too old to like buy them for myself. And so I feel like I missed out a little bit, but here they are.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Hey, nine-year-old Georgia, get in here.

• 9:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Tastes a little bit like lipstick.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  You can't eat it like a traditional hamburger.

• 9:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought I did.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  Well, Tonya, because so many people from our staff said that their dream item to eat, and myself included, was a Krabby Patty? Like wanting the real thing.

• 9:43Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  So if that is what the real thing tastes like, that's kind of hilarious.

• 9:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:47Speaker 00

  It's candy.

• 9:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's just candy.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  It's just delicious gummies.

• 9:51Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, this looks like a mac and, piece of mac and cheese.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  It smells like gummy.

• 9:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Like gummy. Is that mac and cheese flavored gummy? I think it is.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  I'm trying to dig in there.

• 9:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Tastes like a sandbox, like a huge sandbox.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  I mean, if there is, there's nothing mac and cheese about it to me, except for the look.

• 10:09Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a little bit like macaroni, like just plain macaroni without the cheese.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 10:16Speaker 00

  But like, I was thinking there was gonna be a really offensive kind of like

• 10:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  nacho vibe.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  I think it's orange flavored.

• 10:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I think you're right. I think it's weird that I really want to save these cute little plastic tubs that they both came in for future use, just in case you need them for something in the future.

• 10:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, because you could maybe put little rubber bands for your hair in there.

• 10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Organizational.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  You can organize with old candy things. Okay, last one.

• 10:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Worst for last.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  I'm actually saving this mac and cheese one because in general, it's kind of delicious orange gummy.

• 10:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it is orange, you're right.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  No, no complaints about that. Now, this is, like, is this a trend?

• 10:52Georgia Hardstark?

  A Tabasco flavored cupcake?

• 10:54Speaker 00

  Apparently, this is what all the kids are talking about these days.

• 10:56Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't want to do this.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Let's just do it.

• 10:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Because I hate spicy stuff. It smells kind of good.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Okay. Oh, my ulcer.

• 11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a spicy cupcake.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  Oh, yum. Here it goes in the back of my throat.

• 11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, it's kind of good.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  Ooh, what's it doing?

• 11:13Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know, it's got a kick. It looks like a red velvet cupcake. It's got chocolate vibes and spicy, which I don't fucking mind.

• 11:21Speaker 00

  You like it?

• 11:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I kind of, I don't like it. But I don't mind it.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  But you don't mind it, and if you were on your old TV show, how would you describe this?

• 11:30Georgia Hardstark?

  You take a bite into the Tabasco cupcake and you get

• 11:34Speaker 00

  She had the checker notes on that.

• 11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  In the meat, sugar.

• 11:37Speaker 00

  And then the back of your throat starts to burn.

• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Starts to burn a little.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  I mean, that was weird. It was like the tasting in the front was full on red velvet.

• 11:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Rusty, rusting velvet, yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  But the experience in the back was something terrible has happened in the back of your throat.

• 11:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. I'm not not nauseous, you know?

• 11:54Speaker 00

  I mean, that's the idea is like Tabasco desserts work against each other.

• 11:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. And that's another installment of Eating on a Podcast.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  The thing people hate the most that we insist upon doing. I'm gonna cleanse the Tabasco cupcake with a little bit of mac and cheese gummy.

• 12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Gross.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Mmm. Well, some suggestions for your lover on the, on this beautiful day. Give him any of those things we just ate.

• 12:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet there's someone who would love Tabasco cupcakes.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, the guy that hosts Hot Ones.

• 12:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  One of those kind of people.

• 12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  Well, anything else, any personal news before we move it along?

• 12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, I have a podcast recommendation.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  What is it?

• 12:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a true crime podcast called Beers with Queers.

• 12:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Have you heard of it?

• 12:39Speaker 00

  No.

• 12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's an LGBTQIA+ related true crime podcast. And they have two episodes where they do interview with the trans doe task force.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  Oh, cool.

• 12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Which I think is so important. It's episode 116 and 117, so I just wanted to mention those and, um, check that podcast out, Beers with Queers.

• 12:56Speaker 00

  Beers with Queers.

• 12:57Georgia Hardstark?

  The hosts Jordy and Brad are so, so funny and it's just a great true crime podcast, so make sure you check that out.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Nice. Oh, I have a little something. I want to talk to a very, one very specific murderino. Her name is Gloria Evans. She goes to Cal State Dominguez Hills. Apparently for two years in a row in Mr. Pope's class. She has, at the beginning of the year, told everybody that her favorite thing is this podcast. And the first year she did it, Mr. Pope, who is my very old friend, Chip Pope,

• 13:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  said to her, "Just so you know, I know one of those hosts." And she was like, "No, you don't." And then basically just didn't believe him. And then I just saw Chip at a party George and I were at together. And she was in his class again, and she again told everybody that this is her favorite podcast. This is her favorite thing, this podcast.

• 13:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  And so then Chip just told me that kind of in passing. And then I was like, "Well, I'm going to set Gloria Evans straight." Sounds like she's one of the leading murderinos out there, certainly at Cal State Dominguez Hills.

• 13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Gloria, I know Chip Pope. It's real.

• 14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone knows Chip Pope.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  He's legendary in the comedy community.

• 14:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  And so are you for loving our podcast enough that you would tell people in a brand-new class that you would take.

• 14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, we appreciate you not trusting authority, though, and being like, "Mr. Pope, no, you don't." Like, we get that.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:20Georgia Hardstark?

  We get that, like, immediate, what's the word?

• 14:23Speaker 00

  Distrust.

• 14:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Totally support that.

• 14:25Georgia Hardstark?

  That, like, snap judgment of, like, bullshit. Good for you.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  If you're going to immediately come and tell me the thing I think I want to hear most, I absolutely doubt what you're coming at me with.

• 14:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And it wasn't just any party, by the way. It was Chris Fairbanks' 50th birthday party.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 14:40Georgia Hardstark?

  It was so fun.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  So good.

• 14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone who was anyone was there. It was great.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  It was very fun. And Chris made a step and repeat so that people could go take pictures at the party. And the background said 50 years of Fairbanks, but it kind of looked like the Academy Awards step and repeat. And then he made a Plexiglas Getty Images floating thing so that when you took this picture, you had a Getty Images watermark on your picture.

• 15:06Georgia Hardstark?

  So fucking brilliant.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  The man is an artiste.

• 15:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  Happy birthday, Chris Fairbanks.

• 15:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Happy birthday. Okay, ERM highlights real quick?

• 15:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 15:14Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly the Right Media. Here are some highlights.

• 15:17Speaker 00

  This week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul cover the death of investigative reporter Don Bolles, who was known for exposing organized crime in Phoenix and who was killed in a 1976 car bombing. Tune in to hear how his legacy still impacts journalism today.

• 15:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. And then over on Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, Roz slides down the banister to welcome the comedian Rosebud Baker. They discuss a haunted Toys R Us, spirit babies, and a wild encounter with a medium at a comedy club.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  And then over on Rewind with Karen and Georgia, that's you and I. We're traveling back to recap episode 32, which was the episode where we covered the tragic death of the singer Selena and the now infamous Zanku Chicken Murders. On that show, we bring you all new case updates and insights and secrets and Easter eggs.

• 16:05Georgia Hardstark?

  You should be checking out Rewind if you're not. It's just got everything.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Gloria, get over there.

• 16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And then there's a lot we don't know these days. I think you and I'd be the first to admit. But one thing we can all agree on is that there's never been a worse time than now.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 16:21Georgia Hardstark?

  So in honor of that, we're relaunching the This is Terrible Keep Going Design, this time in navy blue with white lettering. So grab your unisex shirt, a ladies tee, a zip hoodie, whatever you want, because really, it is terrible right now, and we absolutely need everyone to keep going.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  Yes, please keep going.

• 16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Please.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 16:40Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 16:49Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone, and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind, that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention. Is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 17:43Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 17:46Speaker 00

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• 18:27Speaker 00

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• 19:49Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, you're first.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  I am first today. Okay, so I have a feeling you're gonna know this story, maybe because I've talked about parts of it, but it's the story of two infamous British gangster brothers who achieved folk hero status just a few years after their rise to fame. They were charming, entertaining nightclub owners who rubbed shoulders with the biggest stars of their day and became celebrities themselves. They were also hardened criminals who used intimidation, violence, extortion, and murder to claw their way to the top of London's crime world and the swinging 60s social scene.

• 20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Ugh.

• 20:26Speaker 00

  This is the story of the notorious Cray Twins.

• 20:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Do you know this?

• 20:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, and they've been brought up a lot in the podcast, but we've never covered them, I guess, that's...

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I think I'm doing this now because I, we were talking about Tom Hardy and the movie Legend and all that stuff. So it was like, oh, well, actually, let's just go back and

• 20:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  and cover it.

• 20:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  So the main sources used in this story today are the book Our Story, written by Ronnie and Reggie Cray and Fred Dynage. Also, the book The Profession of Violence: The Rise and Fall of the Kray Twins by John Pearson, and an article by writer Duncan Campbell that ran in The Guardian in 2015 titled "The Selling of the Crays: How Two Mediocre Criminals Created Their Own Legend."

• 21:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  And the rest are in our show notes. So it all begins in October of 1933 when Reggie and Ronnie Cray are born into this world 10 minutes apart. Reggie first, then Ronnie, at the family home in the Haggerston neighborhood of East London.

• 21:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  In 1938, the Cray family left that home and moved to Bethnal Green. Big long pause because I was so positive. I was like, it couldn't be that easy to pronounce. At the time, London's East End is gritty, overcrowded, and many of its residents are trapped in the constant cycle of poverty and unemployment. The Cray's parents are EastEnders Violet and Charlie Cray, who already have a seven-year-old son named Charles Jr., when the twins arrive. So by 1939, as World War II is kicking off, Ronnie and Reggie are six years old, and their father, Charlie, is gone much of the time. Reggie will later say, quote, "My dad in those days was nearly always on the run,

• 22:12Speaker 00

  usually from the army, but also occasionally from the police. During his years on the run, it was difficult for him to make a proper living, so he would occasionally have to resort to a bit of thieving and the like."

• 22:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 22:23Speaker 00

  You know, just a touch.

• 22:25Georgia Hardstark?

  We've been all good there.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Meanwhile, the twins' mom Violet is a loving and attentive mother who instills in her boys a deep respect for family. Even in the most desperate times, as London is bombed and the families evacuated and money runs low, she somehow shields her children from the serious difficulties of everyday life during World War II.

• 22:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 00

  Amazing. Reggie will later say, quote, "My dad being away meant a hell of a lot of responsibility for our mother, but she did brilliantly. She kept the family together, she kept us clothed and fed, though how she did it, I'll never know. She was the kindest woman in the world. She never hit us, not even when we've been right little bastards." And the Kray twins are right little bastards from the start. So this is a quote from the Cray's walking tour information page on the website LondonWox, which is wox.com. They nailed that one. They must have got it early. Quote, "The East End of London in the 50s and 60s was a hard place to live. Legendary photographer David Bailey came from the East End at that time, and he said, quote, quote with end quote,

• 23:30Speaker 00

  "If you came from the East End and you wanted out, there were only three things you could become: a boxer, a car thief, or maybe a musician."

• 23:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 23:39Speaker 00

  End quote. So give you a little perspective of what it was like there. Luckily Reggie and Ronnie got into a lot of fights with neighborhood kids. And so as expected, as they enter their late teens, they also get into boxing. Both their father and grandfather were boxers. And their older brother, Charles Jr., is the one who actually teaches them the ropes. So he is too. For a while, boxing seems like a promising career path for them both, especially Reggie, who was said to be an exceptional athlete and very meticulous and thoughtful in the ring. Ronnie, on the other hand, is more brutal and unpredictable. And these two boxing styles actually end up mirroring how people will describe the Crays' personalities, Reggie being the brains, Ronnie being the muscle.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  So that said, both brothers are talented enough to participate in local youth championships. And their fights even get some press attention in the London newspapers. They actually even fight each other a couple of times.

• 24:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's kind of a...

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Twins boxing each other.

• 24:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet that was like a, you know, a good sell. Come fucking see these guys, they look exactly the same.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, fun little human interest moment.

• 24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Beat the shit out of each other.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  They do it anyway at home. Then in 1952, the Crays get drafted into the army, but things spiral almost immediately. When they show up at the reporting station, they refuse to cooperate, punch a corporal, and end up fleeing.

• 25:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Can't do that.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  No, you can't. No. So just as their father had done throughout their childhoods, the brothers spend much of the next two years AWOL from the army or getting arrested and serving short stints in military prisons. As they do, they meet countless other men with criminal records, and these relationships spark the twins' interest in criminal activities and the promise of easy money. In 1954, when both boys are 21, they finally serve all their time and are dishonorably discharged from the military. At this point, Ronnie and Reggie's lives have completely changed. Their criminal records effectively bar them from the legitimate boxing world, so their one career path is now entirely cut off. And it's around this time Ronnie starts to struggle with his mental health.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  This is a big part of the movie, the Legend movie, which is that these weren't just like kind of... Bloodthirsty, you know, sociopathic gangsters.

• 25:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  Reggie was kind of a businessman. He was very strategic about what they were trying to do. Ronnie was schizophrenic. He was a paranoid schizophrenic.

• 26:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  He didn't know it and he was dealing with the kind of effects of that.

• 26:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 00

  It was basically, at that age, the onset of paranoid schizophrenia. He will later remember it by saying, quote, "I can joke about it now, but it was a bad time for me. For a while, I was treated at a mental hospital, but I stopped going there. I still wasn't right. I kept getting these urges to kill people because I was convinced they were plotting to kill me.

• 26:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 26:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Scary.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Which also must be hard if you are starting to be a bit of a criminal or thinking of it.

• 26:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Like, nothing is like, don't do that. It's like, kind of part of your profession in a way.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's gonna kind of escalate things where it's, yeah. So that's the kind of context playing out in the background. As the twins head back to Bethnal Green and soon pursue some legitimate business. There's an East End billiard hall called The Regal, and it's just kind of past its prime. The paint is chipping, the interiors are dingy, and it basically has a seedy enough reputation that, like, insurers won't insure it. But the Crays see it as a perfect investment, so they stop by one day and then the next. And then suddenly, there's a strange uptick in violent activity at The Regal. Unruly guests start infiltrating the place. They destroy the furniture, smash glasses, threaten to burn the building to the ground.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  And although the Crays deny having anything to do with this sudden influx of bad business at The Regal, it all suspiciously works in their favor. They offer the billiard hall's beleaguered owner five pounds a week to take over the business, which would be around.

• 27:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Five pounds in nineteen forty.

• 27:43Speaker 00

  Now it's, um, fifty.

• 27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Nothing fucking matters. Like, I'm gonna be closer.

• 27:49Speaker 00

  You might get close.

• 27:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Five pounds in nineteen, late forties.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Like the mid fifties.

• 27:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Mid fifties, mid fifties is like what I like to call it.

• 27:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 27:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Hundred and fifty dollars a week?

• 27:58Speaker 00

  Close, one sixty seven.

• 27:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Yes, because you also made the, the switch from dollars to pounds.

• 28:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you're right.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  So, great job.

• 28:04Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why, thank you.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  That's why it was so hard. According to writer John Pearson, quote, "The day their offer was accepted, the violence stopped as mysteriously as it had started."

• 28:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Can't you imagine that?

• 28:14Speaker 00

  So, the crazes give the regal a long overdue makeover. They repaint and redecorate it, and soon it starts drawing a new crowd of patrons for the first time in years. Unfortunately, though, this includes members of a local gang who waltz into the regal and demand money from the crazes in exchange for protection.

• 28:34Georgia Hardstark?

  No, not from the cra- no, you don't say that to the-

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Not to these boys, but, but they weren't known. So, it was kind of like, oh, you, you think you're gonna have a billiard tall?

• 28:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 28:43Speaker 00

  It's, this is called a protection racket, and in Reggie's own words, this is how protection rackets work.

• 28:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  And he would know. A gang would offer to protect clubs, pubs, shops, and the like from other gangs in return for a fee, which is, when I was reading this part, I was just like, oh, this is-

• 29:02Georgia Hardstark?

  The mob.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  And Peaky Blinders-

• 29:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 00

  Later days. It's just like all the same thing over and over.

• 29:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Peaky Blinders later days. Oh, classic.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Often, of course, the business was not in any danger from those other gangs, but if the owner of the business was to make this point and refuse to pay the protection fee, he would generally find that his business had been burgled, set fire to, or generally smashed up. By then, of course, he was more than ready to pay his fee. Very few business owners went to the law because if they did, the matter became personal, and they themselves would become the target of the gang.

• 29:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and the law was like on the take, probably.

• 29:38Speaker 00

  You, most likely.

• 29:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  According to what I've seen in Peaky Blinders, absolutely.

• 29:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, we have infiltrated the mob before, and we, so we know.

• 29:45Speaker 00

  We know. Also, Tom Hardy, also in Peaky Blinders.

• 29:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Cute.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Do you want him in the crazes? Movie legend. Do you want him in Peaky Blinders?

• 29:56Georgia Hardstark?

  You want him in every movie.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  You want him. So the Crays were not at all scared of this gang or their threats, of course. In fact, when these gang members show up demanding their protection money, the brothers don't just say no. In front of their patrons and God and everybody, Ronnie grabs a sword and chases the gang out of the regal.

• 30:16Georgia Hardstark?

  A sword?

• 30:17Speaker 00

  A sword, I say.

• 30:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  This is when the Crays have their lightbulb moment. If they're tough enough to run off the local gang running a protection racket, why not just become the local gang running a protection racket? So they do, they form a gang known as The Firm, and they begin running their own East End protection rackets, and armed robberies, and arson, and blackmail schemes, and they get rich doing it. I think the name for a gang in the 50s, naming it The Firm, is so cool and visionary.

• 30:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Just need to say that credit where credit's due. So as Ronnie and Reggie run this gang, they also open more nightclubs. In 1957, they open the double R, an homage to their first names. Then in 1960, they acquire a popular West End club called Esmeralda's Barn.

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go back to the drawing board on that one, if we could.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  See, West End.

• 31:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Does barn mean something else in British 50s than now?

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Yes, it means a trunk, a boot, a lift, a flat. They basically harass and extort the previous owner of Esmeralda's, and then they just take over themselves. Then in 1963, they debut The Kentucky back in East London, and soon after its opening, The Kentucky serves as a filming location for the movie Sparrows Can't Sing, your favorite film.

• 31:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm a lot about that movie.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Early 60s hit. Ronnie and Reggie are invited to the film's premiere, and they host its celebrity-filled after-party. About this, Reggie says, quote, "It was on that night, with Ron and me done up like dogs dinners in our bow ties and dinner jackets, and surrounded by the rich and famous, that I realized that we were well on the way to making it to the very top. I felt so powerful that night. I felt nothing was to stop us." So through the mid 60s, the Crays open more clubs and they become the center of London nightlife and they're becoming celebrities in their own right. But their public image is complex. It's well known that Ronnie and Reggie are involved in all sorts of illegal activities, that they're wildly brutal to those who cross them,

• 32:25Speaker 00

  and that they're gang the firm rules the East End. They're also running what's called long firm frauds. And this involves setting up a fake business, ordering goods or merchandise on credit, then shutting down that business and stiffing the seller and offloading the goods that they didn't pay for, for a quick profit.

• 32:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 32:45Speaker 00

  But these crimes and the Crays' criminal infamy not only doesn't scare customers away, their notorious reputation enhances their popularity. They seem dangerous, which is enticing to some customers. Duncan Campbell writes, quote, "This cross-fertilization between crime and show business, exemplified in the US by Frank Sinatra's relationship with the mafia, had benefits for both sides. Prestige for the gangsters, edgy cool for the stars."

• 33:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we, like, I want to make clear though, they don't look like Tom Hardy, right? Like, Tom Hardy, I don't know what he played, but he played them in the movie.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not what they look like.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  The picture I saw of the Crays, they look like boxers. They look like they've had their nose smashed a bunch of times.

• 33:25Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like if Alan Rickman had been a boxer.

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:28Georgia Hardstark?

  And was terrifying.

• 33:30Speaker 00

  But also like very concerned with like slicked back hair and 50s like cool suits, 60s cool suits.

• 33:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 33:38Speaker 00

  They were very image savvy.

• 33:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  They style themselves after characters in American gangster films. They dress in double-breasted suits with their hair slicked back, accessorizing with big chunky rings and gold cuff links. They even form a friendly relationship with powerful members of the American mafia.

• 33:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 33:55Speaker 00

  So they're going for it.

• 33:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  But as hard as the twins work to push a very specific gangster image, they also buck social norms by openly engaging in relationships with other men.

• 34:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 34:05Speaker 00

  Right?

• 34:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Being an out gay man in this era is very rare.

• 34:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Homosexuality at the time is against the law in England. But Ronnie lives openly as a gay man. And actually, that part of the movie Legend is really funny because he is, Ronnie being the big tough guy.

• 34:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  He also has this kind of like, he's very like, takes the world as it is and very, you know, like of the moment. So anytime anyone tries to like insult him or try to infer that there's anything wrong with what he's doing, he's just like kind of confused. Like, I don't know what your problem is.

• 34:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 34:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, that's just the way it's played in the movie, which made me laugh really hard. He's just not having it, really. And Reggie, who eventually marries a woman named Frances Shay, he's more often described as bisexual. So I feel like basically they just do what they want.

• 35:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like weirdly progressive.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. And their very strong tough guy brand that they've created is great for business. And kind of goes, you know, it just plays and enables them to do whatever they want, essentially. Their nightclub's are increasingly popular hangouts for glamorous clientele. Like James Mansfield, Tony Bennett, Frank Sinatra. Even Judy Garland went there and became a close friend to the Cray brothers. At one point, she actually introduced the Crays to the Beatles.

• 35:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Judy, who knew.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  She was the link between. The Cray's mother actually invited Judy Garland to tea. And while she was there, Judy sang Somewhere Over the Rainbow for her.

• 35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  But this is according to Duncan Campbell, the writer. This is the quote from Violet Cray. Judy was a frightened little thing, too skinny. That was her verdict on having fucking Judy Garland in her house singing. Yep.

• 35:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 35:57Speaker 00

  Tough.

• 35:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Legendary.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  Tough lady. I mean Violet.

• 36:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  So for years, the Crays seem untouchable. When police look into their crimes, the investigations always stall because witnesses are simply too afraid to talk. But of course, nothing lasts forever. While Ronnie and Reggie's rise to the top of London's underworld is swift, by 1966 tensions between the Crays and a South London group of gangsters called the Richardson Gang come to a head. While these two gangs typically steer clear of each other's business, Ronnie later claims that the Crays had spies inside the Richardson camp. And those spies eventually report back that one of the Richardson's gang associates, who was a guy named George Cornell, who used to be in the firm. So he was like an ex-Crayes gang member that went to the Richardson's gang.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  George had been talking about a plan to move into the Crays' territory. Ronnie also admits, though, that this rift with their ex-colleague was very personal with this George Cornell, because he says, quote, "The trouble might still have been avoided, but then Cornell did the most stupid thing he'd ever done in his life. In front of a table full of villains, he actually called me a fat poof." He virtually signed his own death warrant.

• 37:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you can't do that.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  End quote.

• 37:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You gotta be careful.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like in front of everybody and to a person where it's just like, oh, okay, well, then there you go. So, as you can imagine, things escalate from there. On March 8th, 1966, members of the Richardson Gang, including George Cornell, shoot up a pub that's frequented by members of the firm. Ronnie and Reggie aren't there, but one of their associates is killed. So, one night later, Ronnie's out drinking when he learns that George Cornell is posted up at a pub called The Blind Beggar that's also in the East End. And it's also in the firm's territory. So Ronnie walks over, walks up to George at the bar and shoots him in front of basically all the patrons that are in there. George Cornell dies later that night.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  After the murder, Ronnie says, quote, "I felt fucking marvelous."

• 37:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Well, don't, don't call him slurs then.

• 38:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  And certainly don't call him fat.

• 38:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know why I'm expecting, like, a gangster to be like, "I didn't like it." It's like, no, of course he fucking felt fabulous.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  He didn't give a shit. You would just be fucking traumatized into infinity if you had to shoot somebody.

• 38:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Months pass, Ronnie faces zero repercussions for George's murder. Because again, no witnesses are willing to talk. About a year later, with the rivalry between the Crays and the Richardson gang continuing to build, Reggie brutally murders a low-ranking member of his own gang over basically a small debt. This man's name was Jack the Hat McVitty. I'm gonna start calling you the Hat for sure.

• 38:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Please do.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  The Hat, if you could just wear a little hat all the time.

• 38:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Always.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Jack is baited into a basement. He's told there's a party down there that everyone's going to.

• 38:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Never go to a party.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Especially in the basement. When he gets down there, he instead finds Reggie and Ronnie waiting for him. Reggie pulls the trigger to shoot Jack, but gun jams.

• 39:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Come on.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  So Ronnie holds Jack down, Reggie pulls out a knife and repeatedly stabs him in the face, throat, and chest until he bleeds out on the floor.

• 39:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, what a bummer.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  And Jack McVitty's body is disposed of and never recovered.

• 39:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  So that's where all the glamour and glitz and superficial stuff really melts away for me, where it's like, oh, that's cute and neat and Tom Hardy and hooray. But then it's like, you could do that?

• 39:31Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fucking brutal as shit.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  To someone in your own gang.

• 39:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  This murder is seen as a terrible, needless, and very sloppy move, and it alienates the Crays from members of their own gang. It's also out of character for Reggie, who's typically more of the strategic and thinking one. Years later, he blames his decision to murder Jack on his poor mental state because his beloved wife Frances had recently taken her own life.

• 39:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Still...

• 40:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no. Oh, no for her.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, strictly. Like, the oh no stops firmly there. So both the murders of Jack McVitty and George Cornell happened in front of witnesses over at Scotland Yard. There's a detective named Leonard "nipper" Reed.

• 40:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, nipper, that's your new nickname.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Is it?

• 40:19Georgia Hardstark?

  The Hat.

• 40:20Speaker 00

  Nipper and the Hat.

• 40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Nipper and the Hat.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  That's our new Tuesday show.

• 40:24Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  So the Nippers are determined to bring down the Krayes, essentially. In 1968, Ronnie, Reggie and about 15 members of the firm are arrested for various illicit activities. Reed's plan is to bring them all in and then flip someone from the inside. He holds separate interrogations with each gang member and offers them legal protection in exchange for their testimony about the murders of Cornell and McVitie. And the plan works. After about a decade of getting nothing but silence, Reed is finally able to turn members of Krayes' own inner circle, who are finally willing to speak in court. The twins' 1969 trial is a true media sensation. Ooh, I bet.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Thanks to all the damning evidence and, most crucially, the consequential testimony against them, it ends with both Ronnie and Reggie being found guilty of the murders of George Cornell and Jack McVitie, respectively, as well as all the unprovable crimes that no one would or could talk about up until that point. Yeah. The Krayes are sentenced to life sentences in separate prisons. They're both 35 years old. At their sentencing hearing, the judge tells them, quote, "In my view, society has earned a rest from your activities." But they don't get a rest from the Krayes' activities. Instead, Ronnie and Reggie maintain a very public profile once they're in prison. Duncan Campbell reports that, quote, "Once jailed, they devoted their considerable energies

• 41:55Speaker 00

  to their image as gangland stars, always open to visitors from the outside." Hmm. The twins are able to generate a decent income by feeding stories to visitors who would then sell them to British tabloids and then bring the money back to the Krayes in jail. Oh, that's smart. Right? They also have more elaborate ways of capitalizing off their imprisonment. In 1985, for example, Ronnie gets engaged to a woman named Elaine, who's been writing him letters during his incarceration. There's always these Elaines.

• 42:25Georgia Hardstark?

  These Elaines.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  By this point, Ronnie's been transferred to Broadmoor, um, a famous London psychiatric hospital. We have talked about on the show many times. Ronnie and Elaine decide to get married at the facility's chapel. But there's no ulterior motive here.

• 42:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, it's not love?

• 42:42Speaker 00

  I mean, it could have been the greatest Valentine's Day of all time, but no, it's not real. When the tabloids catch wind about this upcoming wedding, the sun offers 20,000 pounds, which is nearly how much in today's US dollars?

• 42:58Georgia Hardstark?

  20,000 in the eighties.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 43:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Equals 350.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  A hundred thousand.

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn it.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  It's true. I was trying to send it to you.

• 43:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Uh, I was gonna say pathological. A hundred thousand dollars for the rights to cover it. Ronnie accepts the offer, takes the money, presumably, we don't have proof. And then, interestingly, his marriage to Elaine is over within a few years.

• 43:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  I mean, he worked the sun. That's kind of great.

• 43:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. That's a lot of money.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  These guys are really good at being kind of Robin Hood-esque.

• 43:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  Except for the murder.

• 43:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  Ronnie Cray dies at Broadmoor in 1995 at the age of 61 after a heart attack. Reggie Cray, meanwhile, bounces around to different prisons until the year 2000, when they release him on compassionate grounds because he's dying of cancer.

• 43:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  Reggie dies a few weeks later on October 1st at the age of 66. Today, the Cray brothers are buried side by side in London next to their parents. And even after their deaths, the Kray twins continue to fascinate the public. And their twisted underdog story has inspired a niche industry of books, movies, and TV shows and true crime podcasts. This includes the 2015 film Legend, where the great Tom Hardy gives a dual blockbuster performance as both brothers in one movie. If you haven't seen it, it really is the best.

• 44:22Georgia Hardstark?

  I haven't. I'll watch it.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  It's just, it's also just a really, like, in my opinion, beautifully directed film and very compelling, but it's just so good and he's so different. The two. Brothers are so different.

• 44:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and to play both of them, that's gotta be a challenge.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  It's cool.

• 44:37Georgia Hardstark?

  He's not just a pretty face.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  He's not. Just start crying. There's also a 1990 film starring Martin and Gary Kemp as the Cray Brothers. It's called The Crays. And if you're not old, then you probably don't know, the Kemp brothers were the bass and guitar players for the band Spandau Ballet.

• 44:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, so they were kind of already famous British. And then somebody wanted to make the Crays movie and they're like, those guys are brothers. They're badasses. They wear jackets really well. Today, the Cray brand remains strong. Many continue to capitalize off of it. There are now gangster walking tours in London that roll through the areas where Ronnie and Reggie used to hang out, including London Walks at walks.com. Go ahead and get your Cray's walking tour over there.

• 45:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Full circle.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  And the pub, The Blind Beggar, where Ronnie killed George Cornell, also benefits from the connection to the Crays. Reporter Duncan Campbell notes, quote, "You can take a selfie in the place where Cornell was shot and the pub sells Cray's DVDs for 20 pounds and a Cray's Walk booklet for 3 pounds."

• 45:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  Not only that, but I, in looking on that website, found that there's a walking tour called Darkest Victorian London, which I beg anybody that can get to it to please take and then write into [email protected] and tell me everything about the darkest Victorian.

• 46:04Georgia Hardstark?

  That's your dream.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Walking tour. There's also, there's also a virtual walking tour of Jane Austen's bath, which I want.

• 46:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, can I just sit or do I have to actually walk, like, on a treadmill?

• 46:15Speaker 00

  You have to walk on a treadmill in your own home.

• 46:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, virtual means I can virtually walk, too? Or I have to walk?

• 46:21Speaker 00

  It's just kind of virtual, like, you know?

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Think about walking while you, while you watch it.

• 46:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Done.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  And that's the story of the notorious East Ender twin gangsters, The Crays.

• 46:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 46:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I just have the best idea right now. So like you get a treadmill and it has like the walking tours of like the like beautiful, the walking hikes and the mountains and the forests and all the beautiful hikes you can take.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Why aren't there like ghost tour treadmill walks? And like, you know, uh, Jack the Ripper, like neighborhood treadmill walks.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  So that your heart rate keeps going up and keeps going up.

• 46:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Brought to you by My Favorite Murder.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's do this. Poor man's copyright. Don't try to do it. We're doing it. But it's also like you're on a treadmill, but then like a ghost from Scooby Doo kinda just flies through.

• 47:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great idea.

• 47:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That's great. Sorry. That was so good.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 47:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Good job.

• 47:15Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you, Tom Hardy. You've done it again.

• 47:17Georgia Hardstark?

  You have. It's all Tom Hardy's fault and we appreciate it.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 47:22Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you wanna know your home is protected while you're away.

• 47:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is gonna show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 48:18Speaker 00

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 48:26Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 48:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying To figure out who to call.

• 48:43Speaker 00

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 48:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 49:07Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 49:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 49:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice, or services must be 18 years or older.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 49:33Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder.

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 49:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 49:57Georgia Hardstark?

  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping, and when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet, and suddenly you're asleep, and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 50:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 50:34Speaker 00

  How dare you call my feet stinky?

• 50:37Georgia Hardstark?

  For wellness, you can feel fine, Dr. Teals magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Goodbye.

• 50:45Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, here's one that a lot of people are going to be mad at me about, that I'm mad at me about.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 50:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause the timing is bad and it's a bad story.

• 50:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's on, it's on.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  It's about to happen. You're like, and this is the American revolution.

• 51:04Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the Civil War.

• 51:08Georgia Hardstark?

  It's something that is a lot of us who have anxiety, it's on our minds right now, even though this is a story from over 45 years ago.

• 51:17Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the story of the deadliest aviation accident in history.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  I know.

• 51:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Alejandra called me last week and was like, are you sure you want to cover this? And I'm like, let's just do it, but let's talk about what's happening currently too.

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 51:32Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 51:33Georgia Hardstark?

  So we don't shy away here, except sometimes we do.

• 51:36Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, like we do what we can do week to week.

• 51:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 51:39Speaker 00

  All right, let's do it. Let's dig in.

• 51:41Georgia Hardstark?

  This story is wild because it's a story of chance, like so many little things, human error, the weather, like things you could not control, all lining up in such a way that this one event occurred. And it results in a tragedy that ultimately claims the lives of 583 people. I know. This disaster also led to some major changes in the way international aviation works. That said, safety experts have been warning for years that there are still gaps in the systems and that another tragedy is likely. Their warnings have only just recently come to fruition in the recent American Airlines crash in Washington DC. We'll talk about at the end. This is the story of the Tenerife Airport disaster. Do you know it?

• 52:26Speaker 00

  Yes. Yep.

• 52:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you watch the Nova episode called the deadliest plane crash? It's like I survived.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  What year was it from?

• 52:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It's 2006.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  I may have. Yeah, yeah.

• 52:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet you did because it totally reads like an I survived episode.

• 52:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 52:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's so hard to watch. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. That was the main source I used when I watched it and cried. But then I was like, Vince, I shouldn't do this this week, right? And he was like, I'm not worried about it. And I'm like, oh, it's just us who have anxiety.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  I mean, I think it's that piece where the, a lot of us had the little factoid in our heads every time we flew, which is it's more common to have, to be killed in your own bathroom.

• 53:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, in a car accident. That's, cars are less safe than airplanes.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  Right. But I think when we see any kind of air disaster in the news, it shakes that kind of like comfort that we hold on to very, very dearly.

• 53:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  On top of there, this kind of governmental crumbling vibe, which then you're like, well, that's gonna, you know, it's easy to then begin to write what's gonna happen.

• 53:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And I think that we also feel some kind of control when it comes to stepping into our bathtub or getting into a car. We at least have a little bit of control over what's happening. And in an airplane, you give it all up. And so it's scary.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  Very true. Except I'd just like to remind everybody that one step you take off the bath mat and there's a little water on your, it's like tile floor. I did that the other day and caught myself. I was like, I could have like just cracked my head so hard. And it was like, like a fast one that I then caught. And I was like, oh my God, thank God I caught myself.

• 54:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's terrifying.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. Everything's terrifying, guys.

• 54:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything is terrifying.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  We can do this. Just walk slowly, you know, keep the ground dry.

• 54:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Carry a beta blocker. You don't have to take it, but just like knowing that it's in my purse does help sometimes. Okay. Also, we're getting on a plane next month, you and I. So sorry about that.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  We're going to be doing this a lot. It's people, one million people are gonna get on planes today and be fine.

• 54:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Someone's flying right now and they're like, I'm just gonna listen until I can't anymore.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 54:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Jessica, stay with us. You've got this. Okay. So let's talk about the Canary Islands. They're a chain of southern islands off the coast of northwestern Africa, as you know. However, they're Spanish territories. This is clearly a bit contentious with everybody. There have been several movements for independence over the years with disputes of who controls some of the waters around the islands. Regardless, we're not getting into that today. The islands are a hugely popular tourist destination. You've heard of them, right?

• 55:03Speaker 00

  I have because there was those murders.

• 55:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, that's right.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, recently.

• 55:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Regardless, so the islands are sunny, they're tropical, it's tropical weather pretty much year round, and they are home to hundreds of beach resorts and water parks, a beautiful place to go. When you hear British people talking about a sun holiday, they're probably talking about the Canary Islands, like they go there a lot. So here we are on the island of Gran Canaria on March 27, 1977. It's shortly after 1:00 PM at the Gran Canaria Airport, which is the main airport servicing the islands. So it's a pretty sizable island and airport, and a bomb explodes in the departures area.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 55:45Georgia Hardstark?

  So this is just one of those little moments. It has nothing to do with the plane crash that's going to happen later. It's just a chance thing that leads to the next thing, right? A group called the Canary Islands Separatist Movement takes credit for the explosion, injures eight people, and the group threatens that there will be a second explosion that day. So that's the first thing that happens. The airport's evacuated, obviously, and all flights that are scheduled to land there are diverted. Most of them are diverted to the much smaller Los Rodeos Airport on the neighboring island of Tenerife. And it's about a 25-minute flight between the two islands. Los Rodeos has only a single runway,

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  it's very small, one large taxiway, and four much smaller taxiways branching off of that. So it's like the Burbank Airport compared to like LAX.

• 56:35Speaker 00

  Right.

• 56:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? And it's not designed to accommodate the number of aircraft that have now been diverted there because of this unexpected explosion. Also, it's a Sunday, and so there are only two air traffic controllers on duty at this smaller airport. So among the flights that have been diverted to Los Rodeos are Pan Am Flight 1736, which flew out of LAX.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:59Georgia Hardstark?

  You know all this. Do you know this one well?

• 57:01Speaker 00

  No, no, no, I don't know. I don't know it like that.

• 57:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Yeah, that was a Boeing.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Amazing. No, it's just that it's like those, the plane crashes from the 70s feel like a lot of them were Pan Am.

• 57:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  Or like when it's like, when you hear the phrase Pan Am flight and then a number, it's like, it gives me agita.

• 57:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. So it had flown out of LAX, made a refueling stop at JFK in New York. And then the other flight was KLM Flight 4805. That one originated in Amsterdam and that is a charter flight for a tour company called the Holland International Travel Group. So both planes are, as you just said, Boeing 747s. The first wide body plane designed for commercial travel to be considered a jumbo jet. And they have a distinctive upper deck as well, which we don't have anymore, right? Upper deck?

• 57:54Speaker 00

  No, I've gone on planes recently that had upstairs.

• 57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  There was something I flew.

• 57:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Italy, probably.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  I was upstairs when I flew home from Italy.

• 58:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:02Speaker 00

  It was a biggie.

• 58:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Huge jumbo jet. So like, those were the only two jumbo jets that went to Tenerife that day. Everything else was smaller, but you know, they weren't supposed to be there.

• 58:10Speaker 00

  Right.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  The pilot of the KLM flight, the Dutch flight, is Jacob Van Zanten. He is one of the most senior pilots at KLM. In fact, he is the airline's chief pilot and is in charge of training new pilots. He's like the best of the best, this kind of older senior pilot. He's so well regarded in the industry that he is featured prominently in KLM's advertising. Like when they show like, these are the people who fly you. It's like, this guy is like the face of it.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  Did you get to see a picture of him?

• 58:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he's like a, you know, older gray zaddy type.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 58:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:47Speaker 00

  I feel like of all the populations of people on this planet, pilots would have the least amount of patience with me. You know what I mean?

• 58:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Why?

• 58:58Speaker 00

  Cause they're just so like, you know,

• 59:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:01Speaker 00

  Kind of like all business.

• 59:02Georgia Hardstark?

  All business.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  Kind of very logical.

• 59:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like almost like engineers. Are they engineers?

• 59:07Speaker 00

  I mean, they might be.

• 59:08Georgia Hardstark?

  They should be.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  There's no extra chit chat.

• 59:10Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  It feels like with them.

• 59:12Georgia Hardstark?

  No extra words, cause there's just like, yeah.

• 59:15Speaker 00

  Cause they're like.

• 59:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Logic.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  But then like, I would be on there just like, oh my God, if you've ever seen anything weird and they would just be like, I don't know what you're talking about.

• 59:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's no chit chat. You're totally right. So he's, he's definitely that guy. However.

• 59:28Speaker 00

  If we're wrong about that, write in pilots, let us know if we're wrong.

• 59:31Georgia Hardstark?

  But I will say about this guy though, and you'll like this, he, everyone says he's a warm and friendly guy.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  Oh, great.

• 59:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And that he insisted his coworkers call him by his first name instead of addressing him as captain. So like, he's fucking down to earth.

• 59:44Speaker 00

  Chill.

• 59:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Chill. Good at what he does. Maybe he'll tell you about that one time he saw a UFO.

• 59:49Speaker 00

  The weird thing in this guy.

• 59:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, like he's so likeable.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 59:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And the first officer, co-pilot, he's pretty green and he's currently being trained by Captain Ben Zatton. And almost everyone on that flight is Dutch. Many of them are families going on vacation and among the Dutch passengers are several tour guides who are from the Netherlands originally, but now most live on the Canary Islands and they're like, they're coming with the group to the Canary Islands. Among them is a young woman in her twenties named Robina Van Lanschot. Both flights land at Los Rodeos around 2:00 PM. You know, they've been diverted, as I keep telling you. The passengers from the Dutch KLM flight are allowed off the plane into the airport while they wait, which is kind of crowded, but at least they're getting off the plane.

• 1:00:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's here that Robina makes a split second decision. See, her boyfriend, like newish boyfriend, lives on Tenerife, where they had to land, where they were diverted. So she decides to stay on the island and go see him. She's close friends with the other two Dutch tour guides on the flight. She tries to convince them to like, come with her, we'll make a night out of it, we'll have some fun. But they've already made plans to. See friends on Grand Canaria. And so they're like, we're just gonna wait till we're allowed to get back on the plane and go, go back to the island. Like, they want to get this whole trip over with. So the passengers on the Pan Am flight from LA, they have to stay on the plane, unfortunately. Nearly all of them had departed from Los Angeles and they had already made that stop in New York. So at this point, they've all been traveling for about 12 hours.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  Oof.

• 1:01:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And, you know, probably really shitty conditions back in the 70s, right? Lots of cigarettes.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  Lots of smoking.

• 1:01:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Lots of cigarette smoke. They're anxious to complete this final 25-minute leg of their trip. They're like, can we get this over with? Among these passengers is a 27-year-old woman named Joni Holt. Joni is a former police officer and has a three-year-old daughter back home in San Diego. She's divorced and in a relatively new relationship with a man named Jack. And she and Jack are about to go on this, like, trip of a lifetime together in this new relationship they're in. They're going on a two-week cruise through the Mediterranean. And actually, a large proportion of the passengers on that flight are supposed to go on this same cruise. It's scheduled to leave from Grand Canaria and make stops in the Canary Islands, Morocco, Sicily, Athens.

• 1:02:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, everyone is just ready for this flight to be over, so they can move on with their lives.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So Joni and her boyfriend have splurged on first-class tickets for the flight. And the luxurious Pan Am 747 has a first-class bar area on the upper deck.

• 1:02:22Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:02:23Georgia Hardstark?

  That upper deck you love. At this point on the journey, Joni and her boyfriend have befriended their seatmates, something I don't ever do.

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  No, God, no.

• 1:02:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You shouldn't. Once they've been diverted to Tenerife, some of those seatmates invite them upstairs to the lounge to hang out. But Joni and Jack decide to stay downstairs in their seats. They're just like, they want to be where they're supposed to be when the flight's supposed to take off. Like, they're ready to freaking go.

• 1:02:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So they don't go upstairs to the bar. Remember that flight to Australia that had a bar in it? You won't remember that, but Vince and I remember that.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  Was it behind where we were sitting?

• 1:02:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  That was so cool.

• 1:02:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So First Class has a dedicated crew and among them on the Pan Am flight are best friends Suzanne Donovan and Joan Jackson. These two young women try to coordinate so that they work on the same flights together. That's how much they enjoy each other's company. So at about 5pm, the Grand Canaria Airport has been secured and reopened and so flights are allowed to begin taking off for that 25 minute journey. Now, the two air traffic controllers are gonna have to play a game of Tetris to move all these unexpected planes around to give them space to take off down that one small runway that they have.

• 1:03:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Then, at the same time, and one of these other fucking bits of chance happens, a thick fog begins to roll in. I know, fucking fog. The airport is 2,000 feet above sea level, which you know means it's prone to thick cloud cover at times. And there's another issue, the center lights on the runway aren't working.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Crucial.

• 1:04:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Crucial.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Especially if you have fog.

• 1:04:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  But, oh my god, yeah.

• 1:04:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. At this point, everyone has been stranded at Los Rodeos for about three hours. They're anxious to get into the air. In addition to this, the Dutch KLM crew is in danger of timing out, which basically means that everyone working that flight would have to stay a certain amount of hours at that, you know, airport before they're allowed to fly again. And, um, like, there's not room for that on the island. They're all fucking over it. Like, let's, they just, like, kind of are in a hurry, in a way they wouldn't be normally.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And so because of this, maybe not everyone is thinking every step through. The air traffic controllers instruct the KLM flight to taxi to the end of the runway and then they're supposed to wait for the Pan Am flight to follow behind it and get behind it to take off after it. All the other planes at the airport are on the taxi or a holding area because these are the two big planes. But there's interference and the radio transmissions aren't clear.

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:05:02Georgia Hardstark?

  There's also the language barrier issue. All of the communications are being done in English, but the air traffic controllers and the KLM pilots don't have a standard aviation-centered knowledge of the language. The air traffic controller's first language is Spanish. The KLM flight crew's first language is Dutch. And so the two groups are just not working with a standardized aviation English vocabulary. Just a limited amount of English that they both happen to know.

• 1:05:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:05:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So obviously, things are gonna get mixed up. The Dutch-speaking pilots on the KLM flight taxi to the end of the runway, as they're supposed to, and then Captain Van Zantin says, "Okay, we are at takeoff." And then the air traffic controllers say, "Okay, standby for takeoff. I will call you." But because of the radio interference, only the "okay" is audible in the KLM cockpit. So no one had actually given the KLM flight clearance to take off, but Captain Van Zantin must have misunderstood as he initiates takeoff. He basically goes down the end of the runway. They have to do a U-turn, and they're supposed to wait for the other flight to go down and go behind it, but it's still driving down the runway.

• 1:06:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:06:10Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like basically facing each other.

• 1:06:11Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 1:06:12Georgia Hardstark?

  The transmissions are choppy, and in the Pan Am flight, that's still taxiing down the runway, they don't hear everything, but they still say, quote, "We're still taxiing down the runway." But this transmission overlaps with one from air traffic control, and in the KLM cockpit, they only hear high-pitched noise as their plane barrels directly at the Pan Am flight, which they can't see through that dense fog.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 1:06:36Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's just barreling towards this other plane. While all this is going on, the passengers in first class on the Pan Am flight, they're kind of aware of what's going on. Joni remembers feeling nervous about the maneuvering that they had to do around the KLM flight. She remembers that her boyfriend joked, quote, "Don't worry. If they hit us, you won't feel a thing."

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  Mm.

• 1:06:58Georgia Hardstark?

  End quote. But the KLM crew does hear the next transmission when the tower tells the Pan Am crew to report when they're clear. And so one member of the KLM crew then asks over the radio while they're at full speed taking off, if this means they're not clear already. Like clearly in that cockpit as well, there was some confusion, like with everybody.

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  To be asking while you're taking, like mid of like, oh, we're doing the thing. Are you saying we're not clear?

• 1:07:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And the captain who's like, thinks we're clear and taking off is like old school seasoned captain. So like questioning him is probably like not something most people do.

• 1:07:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Georgia Hardstark?

  So that clearly was his way of being like, this isn't right. So then the Pan Am flight comes into view of the KLM flight that's trying to take off. And the last recording recovered from the KLM cockpit is Captain Van Zant crying out as he tries to pull up and take off to avoid hitting the Pan Am flight. So he just like fucking tries so hard to pull up. They had just gotten a bunch of fuel on the plane too, which made it heavier. There are about eight seconds when the two planes are visible to each other. And in those eight seconds, the captain of the Pan Am flight named Victor Grubbs says, quote, "God damn it, that son of a bitch is coming." And he tries to steer his plane off the runway to get it out of the way.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  So sorry, they're both taking off at each other essentially?

• 1:08:18Georgia Hardstark?

  That flight is taking off quickly in the direction of the Los Angeles flight. That's just taxiing and coming slowly forward.

• 1:08:27Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:08:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So they're both coming towards each other.

• 1:08:30Speaker 00

  And then the Dutch flight is actually going really fast and trying to take off.

• 1:08:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 1:08:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Despite the KLM flight trying to pull up and the Pan Am flight trying to veer away, it's no use. The KLM flight just gets off the ground, but slices right through the upper deck of the Pan Am flight, resulting in an instant explosion.

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 1:08:50Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. The KLM flight remains airborne for a few seconds before crashing to the ground in a fireball. There are no survivors from the KLM flight, which had 248 people aboard.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:09:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So meanwhile, at first, Pan Am First Officer Robert Bragg doesn't think their flight has been extensively damaged, or the one who got hit that we're taxiing, because all he could feel was a bit of shaking. And then he realizes that all the windows in the cockpit are gone. And in this model of 747, the cockpit is on the upper level. So Robert turns around in his seat and sees the tail of the airplane, meaning the entire top part of the plane had just been sliced right off.

• 1:09:31Speaker 00

  Oh, my god.

• 1:09:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Just turns around and like, he can see the tail of the plane from the cockpit. He says, quote, "We had 28 people in the upstairs lounge. The lounge was no longer in the plane. It was just a big hole there," end quote. That's the lounge that Joni and her boyfriend had considered going up to, but instead it stayed in their seats. So Joni had felt the plane veer to the left before the impact. And the next thing she remembers is this horrific scene of devastation around her and destruction. There's debris and small fires everywhere in the cabin. But next to her, her boyfriend, Jack, is also still alive. They're both injured, but not horrifically so. And together, they climb

• 1:10:11Georgia Hardstark?

  over the debris to a hole where one of the plane's doors used to be. And 747s are high off the ground. It's about a 12-foot jump from the door to the ground. And a man is already down there telling Joni that he'll catch her. So she is able to jump from that hole to the ground. And meanwhile, Jack starts to help a flight attendant get other passengers to this door to get off of the plane. At some point, terrifyingly, part of the plane collapses, but this actually makes the jump lower. So it's easier to get people to the ground. So they help get people off of the plane, which is incredible. And eventually, Jack also gets off the plane and is reunited with Joni. I know.

• 1:10:51Speaker 00

  Oh, my god.

• 1:10:52Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Among those who have also survived the impact are best friends Suzanne and Joan. And they both instruct the people who can make it to the door to leave everything behind. And they help them get off of the burning plane. And eventually, they have no choice but to get off as well. Once on the ground, Joan, the flight attendant, thinks they're going to walk around the plane and find more survivors who have exited through the doors, but that doesn't happen. Some passengers do manage to get out over one of the wings of the plane, but the majority of the people on the flight are either killed on impact or suffocate in the fire. Of those on the Pan Am flight, 331 people die and only 61 survive.

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 1:11:33Georgia Hardstark?

  However, 61 survivors, I mean, miraculous.

• 1:11:36Speaker 00

  Completely miraculous.

• 1:11:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I told you you'd hate this.

• 1:11:40Speaker 00

  I mean, but it's just so unimaginable. It's just so, kind of like the way you're describing it, where it's like, that is literally how it would be, where you're sitting there, you hear this weird noise. All of a sudden, you're like, I guess there's things that are on fire, I better leave. Like, you're in full shock.

• 1:11:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Speaker 00

  It's just wild, to have been, like, on the thing and staying conscious and getting off the thing.

• 1:12:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. You probably, like, got your purse with you, because you just are, like, just totally in shock.

• 1:12:07Speaker 00

  Get up and go.

• 1:12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, in the aftermath, large memorial services for both flights are held. The Dutch service for the KLM flight is held in a hangar to accommodate more than 300 caskets, which is, I guess, staggering to see them all together. And those who died in the Pan Am flight are buried in Westminster, California. The only person who should have been on that KLM flight who does survive is Robina. Remember the tour guide who stayed behind on Tenerife to see her boyfriend? At that point, the two had only known each other for four months, but they go on to get married. And in that 2006 Nova documentary, they say they've never separated since that day. She's like, "Love saved my life."

• 1:12:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. And in 2007, a memorial to the crash and its 583 victims is dedicated at the airport in Tenerife. So this tragedy leaves the aviation industry reeling and leads to major changes. Across all major airports and international airlines, there's now a standard protocol for simple, universal English phrases. No air traffic controllers can use words like "okay" or "roger." Those words are not used anymore. No one says the word "takeoff" unless permission for takeoff is being given. Pilots and air traffic controllers only use the word "departure" before that. Ooh. So because they're like, like, "hold for takeoff," you don't say that anymore. Yeah.

• 1:13:36Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, you can't say the word "takeoff" until you're, because it's kind of what happened, is it's kind of a little confused and garbled. The misunderstanding, right. Right. So you won't hear that word unless it's allowed. Well, flying is still statistically very safe, as you and I know. Yeah. Just a few weeks ago, we saw the first accident involving a major US carrier in 16 years. Yeah. This came after several close calls. In 2023, in the span of a few weeks, there were three near misses on American runways with planes almost colliding. I know, I hate it. I just want to stay home. Go ahead. Can I? Sure. Oh, thank God. Safety experts had cautioned that these misses should be taken as a warning to address

• 1:14:18Georgia Hardstark?

  issues like understaffing among air traffic controllers and modernizing warning systems. Unfortunately, these issues have not been addressed completely enough. And on January 30th, just this past month, a Black Hawk helicopter collided with an American Airlines flight that was landing at DC's Reagan Airport. 67 people were killed. There were no survivors, as we know. And in fact, while the victims of the crash were still being pulled from the Potomac, Trump blamed diversity hiring in the air traffic control industry for the crash. And look, yes, we can totally get into politics here. I'm obviously no expert, but it's important to bring this stuff up. And I'll just quote an ex-user named A-Money Resist, who said, quote, "On your second

• 1:15:03Georgia Hardstark?

  day, you, one, fired the head of the Transportation Security Administration, two, fired the entire aviation security advisory." three froze hiring of all air traffic controllers. Four fired 100 top FAA security officers. End quote. Now, many argue that these changes wouldn't have led to such immediate consequences that would have affected this crash that happened on the 30th. And at the time, the air traffic controller was filling in for a coworker and doing a job that was usually performed by two people. Which is, of course, points to the above understaffing issues.

• 1:15:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Georgia Hardstark?

  But you can't argue that they more than likely will eventually affect those things.

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  Here's what you can argue, in my opinion, is that has nothing to do with DEI.

• 1:15:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:15:50Speaker 00

  That that idea that immediately blaming it on this buzzword bullshit.

• 1:15:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Publicly, like what a what a dangerous thing to say.

• 1:15:58Speaker 00

  Well, but that they're just constantly pointing to people of color and women.

• 1:16:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Speaker 00

  And these, and it's like immediately.

• 1:16:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:16:07Speaker 00

  It like that, that is just so wildly irresponsible. You just kind of have to separate it from everything that happened to go, it's too bad there isn't leadership that doesn't measure their words and think about the effect of those words when they're talking about something this horrifyingly tragic.

• 1:16:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Absolutely. And that is the story of the Tenerife Airport disaster, the deadliest accident in aviation history.

• 1:16:31Speaker 00

  And seemingly like one that all of those things coming together.

• 1:16:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  All of those, it's almost like there's no world where there's blame.

• 1:16:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:16:42Speaker 00

  For all of those things being on the table at one time. To me, that's like, if you want to blame anything, you blame it being 1977.

• 1:16:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And, you know, however, there are things you can put into place that like, you know, looks out for those. Let's call them acts of God or whatever, or misunderstandings or misinformation or security issues or communication issues. Like, let's put those into place instead of just fucking.

• 1:17:08Speaker 00

  Well, and once they've been put into place, let's not take them back out of place. And somehow then pretend that we never needed them in the first place.

• 1:17:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:17:18Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 1:17:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Told you.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  You really got in there and kind of faced, you really faced down.

• 1:17:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I did.

• 1:17:24Speaker 00

  A demon.

• 1:17:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I did.

• 1:17:27Speaker 00

  You did it.

• 1:17:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I did it. You did it. We did it.

• 1:17:29Speaker 00

  I mean, it's almost like that love story of Robina and her boyfriend.

• 1:17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Speaker 00

  We can pull that out and just have that be the theme and say, that's a beautiful thing that sometimes happens among horrible circumstances.

• 1:17:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like that's the, that's the little bright piece of it that we can look at is that she wanted to see him so bad and she went and ran into his arms and.

• 1:17:53Speaker 00

  Never left.

• 1:17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Never left.

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  What's the positive piece about the story of the craze that we can romantically pull out?

• 1:18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, there's no happy endings sometimes and that's okay.

• 1:18:03Speaker 00

  Hey, look, it's the, the happy ending is that we're willing to face the bad endings.

• 1:18:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and Valentine's is here, so.

• 1:18:09Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Go get some KFC.

• 1:18:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, eat as much chocolate as you feel like. It's your day.

• 1:18:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It is your day.

• 1:18:16Speaker 00

  And also stay sexy.

• 1:18:17Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered. I almost said, don't get married.

• 1:18:22Speaker 00

  Happy Valentine's Day, everybody.

• 1:18:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't get murdered.

• 1:18:27Speaker 00

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:18:37Speaker 00

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:18:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

• 1:18:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:18:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Our researchers are Maren McClashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:18:52Speaker 00

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:18:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  Goodbye.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

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