Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 540 - Battery and Rock Night About this episode This week, Georgia covers the murder of Peter Falconio and survival of Joanne Lees and Karen tells the story of the Chilean goalie World Cup scandal.
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Transcript 14,731 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 01 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
0:42 Georgia Hardstark? Between work, school, family obligations, and the endless Halloween hustle, it often feels like there's never a good time to slow down.
0:49 Karen Kilgariff? No matter how busy life gets, even a small break can help us recharge, reset, and enjoy the moment.
0:54 Georgia Hardstark? Breaks don't have to be the 15 minutes in your car while you wait for your kid to get out of school, or the two minutes while your lull pumpkin is tying his shoes.
1:01 Karen Kilgariff? Kit Kat gives people permission to take the break they've earned and make it a better break.
1:05 Georgia Hardstark? While the world tells us to keep going, Kit Kat reminds us that the best time for a break is now.
1:11 Karen Kilgariff? Break now. Have a Kit Kat.
1:12 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:31 Karen Kilgariff? Hello and welcome.
1:32 Georgia Hardstark? To my favorite murder.
1:33 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hardstark.
1:35 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilkerer.
1:36 Karen Kilgariff? Adjust, adjust, adjust your microphone.
1:38 Georgia Hardstark? Here we are with our microphones.
1:40 Karen Kilgariff? Microphones are a big part of podcasting, ladies and gentlemen.
1:43 Georgia Hardstark? It's kind of the only part, really.
1:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, they do more than we do.
1:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, once you have a microphone, you're basically a professional podcaster.
1:50 Karen Kilgariff? You never give it up.
1:51 Georgia Hardstark? You never shut the fuck up.
1:52 Karen Kilgariff? You never can shut it down. Do you remember when the way I used to shake the old microphone?
1:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
1:57 Karen Kilgariff? Dang.
1:58 Georgia Hardstark? Do you remember when we were amateur podcasters?
2:00 Karen Kilgariff? Do you remember when you were the sound guy and Steven was just a gleam in our eyes?
2:05 Georgia Hardstark? I do. So this funny thing happened to me. This funny thing happened.
2:08 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
2:08 Georgia Hardstark? Like I was reading this.
2:09 Karen Kilgariff? Are you doing bits? Yes.
2:11 Georgia Hardstark? I'm listening to a book, or I listened to a book that I totally loved. It was great. It's a, one of the drinking alcoholics memoirs that I love so much called Drinking a Love Story by Caroline Knapp. It's from the 90s, so I thought it'd be dated. No, it's life changing.
2:26 Karen Kilgariff? Is this the one where there's a scene where she jumps on her boyfriend's back like that?
2:30 Georgia Hardstark? I don't think so.
2:31 Karen Kilgariff? And they crash?
2:32 Georgia Hardstark? She has her friend's children and she crashes like that.
2:35 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, her friend's children. That's right.
2:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. It's so good. It's changed a lot of things. I haven't had a drink since I listened.
2:41 Karen Kilgariff? Are you serious?
2:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. It's been eight days. But the weird thing about the audiobook is that it's read by the same woman who read I'll Be Gone in the Dark.
2:52 Karen Kilgariff? No.
2:53 Georgia Hardstark? Her name's Gabrielle Zachman. She's like a famous audiobook narrator, but I'm listening to this like sobriety book and I'm expecting someone to break into the house in the middle of the night and murder everyone. It's just really-
3:06 Karen Kilgariff? You listen to I'll Be Gone in the Dark so many times.
3:08 Georgia Hardstark? So many times. It's just really like jarring and also like I've ruined everything for myself with true crime, essentially.
3:15 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, it is what we do.
3:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
3:17 Karen Kilgariff? It's how it is.
3:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
3:18 Karen Kilgariff? I think that's so funny. That's like, I wonder if that person probably has the most insane range of books and it's like, oh, I can do more than just these two things.
3:26 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
3:27 Karen Kilgariff? But I remember that there was a couple of those, at the time, very groundbreaking Yeah. kind of autobiography tell-alls about here's how I got through this horrible thing. There was another one about eating disorders. It's so, I think no one recommends it anymore because it's so triggering.
3:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
3:44 Karen Kilgariff? It's basically someone giving you a training manual.
3:47 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Well, she has a lot of that in there. I mean, it's just, it's a woman. It doesn't seem like in the 90s that was discussed a lot. You had this idea of what an alcoholic is and it's not a professional, smart woman from a, you know, good background.
3:59 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
4:00 Georgia Hardstark? And it just kind of shows that it could be anyone.
4:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And that it builds and builds.
4:03 Georgia Hardstark? It sure does.
4:04 Karen Kilgariff? Grows and grows.
4:05 Georgia Hardstark? And the thought process behind it all is so familiar. I was almost laughing at myself.
4:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:10 Georgia Hardstark? About how obvious it is, but.
4:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:13 Georgia Hardstark? You know.
4:14 Karen Kilgariff? This is the way.
4:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Alcohol is an addictive substance.
4:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:17 Georgia Hardstark? So people get addicted to it.
4:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Cause for a little while you get to slippy slide out of reality.
4:23 Georgia Hardstark? So nice.
4:24 Karen Kilgariff? It's real nice. It reminds me of this morning, I could not get out of the shower because it's, we're having a very strangely cold summer here in LA. And today, well, I haven't been outside Georgia. I was like, it's freezing today. Did you spill?
4:37 Georgia Hardstark? I spilled all over.
4:40 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, and then I ripped my dress open.
4:42 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no. Oh, my god. Netflix.
4:44 Georgia Hardstark? I'm falling apart.
4:45 Karen Kilgariff? Fan cult. We've got.
4:49 Georgia Hardstark? Someone's coming. Go away. Go away. Don't look at me. Look away. I'm still drunk.
4:56 Karen Kilgariff? Listen, eight days is not that long.
4:58 Georgia Hardstark? No.
4:58 Karen Kilgariff? I think the felt tablecloth will be fine. It'll be fine.
5:03 Georgia Hardstark? Leave that in, please.
5:05 Karen Kilgariff? All of that.
5:06 Georgia Hardstark? Netflix needs to know.
5:07 Karen Kilgariff? A nice, long, four-minute hold.
5:12 Georgia Hardstark? Shower.
5:13 Karen Kilgariff? I can't get out of the shower sometimes. Because it's so warm and I don't want to be cold. So I just keep standing there forever.
5:21 Georgia Hardstark? She wrote a memoir about not being able to get out of the shower.
5:24 Karen Kilgariff? And then I'm babysitting my friends' kids, but I won't get out of the shower. Just keep standing there.
5:31 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck. Should we just get into it?
5:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, let's do it.
5:33 Georgia Hardstark? All right.
5:34 Karen Kilgariff? We don't have to fill.
5:36 Georgia Hardstark? I gave a book wreck.
5:37 Karen Kilgariff? Fucking, she gave a book wreck. She blew her own dress open.
5:41 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, we have a podcast network. You know what it's called? Exactly Right Media.
5:46 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
5:46 Georgia Hardstark? Here are some highlights.
5:48 Karen Kilgariff? Well, we do, right now, have a very big summer announcement for you, and we're very excited. It's Exactly Right's newest true crime limited series. It's a scammer series from our friends at Blanchard House. You know they know what they're doing.
6:00 Georgia Hardstark? The show's called Royal Swindle, and it follows two Aussie con women who scam members of British high society. It's a wild story of greed, lies, and love.
6:10 Karen Kilgariff? Royal Swindle premieres on July 23rd, so go follow the show wherever you get your podcasts. Get on it early. You are going to want to listen to all of the episodes at once. It's an amazing story.
6:21 Georgia Hardstark? And it's really helpful for you guys to follow and subscribe and stuff, so if you are gonna listen, please go do that now.
6:27 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, so there's horses.
6:28 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, fuck, yeah.
6:29 Karen Kilgariff? There's horses involved. The horse people, a horse society.
6:32 Georgia Hardstark? Horse arenas.
6:34 Karen Kilgariff? Or Serpina.
6:35 Georgia Hardstark? And if you're looking for some good news, the next installment of Honking Hoorays premieres at the end of this episode.
6:41 Karen Kilgariff? Hey.
6:41 Georgia Hardstark? You're welcome in advance.
6:43 Karen Kilgariff? And hey, listeners, do you know that you can also be lookers? We are on currently Netflix, along with our other podcast, Buried Bones. So you can watch brand new episodes of My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones every single week right here on Netflix.
6:56 Georgia Hardstark? You can see us on Netflix. It's really shocking to most people I run into who are like, I saw you on Netflix.
7:01 Karen Kilgariff? I thought your voice was the other one's voice.
7:03 Georgia Hardstark? Always. And if you're craving even more MFM, join the fan cult at fancult.supercast.com. You get every episode of My Favorite Murder ad free, plus merch discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more.
7:17 Karen Kilgariff? Good night.
7:22 Georgia Hardstark? Georgia goes first.
7:23 Karen Kilgariff? Georgia goes first.
7:25 Georgia Hardstark? I got a big one, especially for Australians.
7:28 Karen Kilgariff? Great. Shout out across the world.
7:31 Georgia Hardstark? Speaking of Aussies.
7:32 Karen Kilgariff? Hey.
7:33 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, look, I tried.
7:34 Karen Kilgariff? I did. Listeners, if you were watching Netflix right now, you'd know that Georgia was getting her little glasses out of her little glasses case. It's just like Mr. Rogers over here, where Georgia's now turning into podcast personality. Hello.
7:47 Georgia Hardstark? Hello. It's me, podcaster.
7:50 Karen Kilgariff? Hello.
7:51 Georgia Hardstark? Georgia. Okay. Okay. Stop saying okay.
7:55 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
8:02 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so this isn't.
8:06 Georgia Hardstark? Can I get a rosé, please? Can I get a martini? Cold as ice. I want to be able to skate on top of it. That's how we order a cold martini. Did you know that?
8:17 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, is that right?
8:17 Georgia Hardstark? I want to skate, meaning it's so icy on top, I could fucking ice skate on top of it.
8:21 Karen Kilgariff? And the bartender's like, you got it. And then rolls their ice so hard, they fall backwards behind the bar.
8:28 Georgia Hardstark? I would never say that, by the way. I'll say a martini. If it's warm, I won't send it back.
8:32 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, right.
8:33 Georgia Hardstark? I just don't, I can't.
8:34 Karen Kilgariff? Make it skate, but if you don't, I'll smile anyway because I don't actually know how any of this works.
8:38 Georgia Hardstark? I'll tip you so much, you don't even understand.
8:41 Karen Kilgariff? As long as your mustache is curly, I'll do what you say.
8:44 Georgia Hardstark? I'll tip you so much, Vince told me recently, you tip so much that the owners think that the bartender's giving you free drinks. So if you're gonna tip a lot, tip in cash.
8:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
8:54 Georgia Hardstark? Because I'll fucking blow out the tip sometimes if the person's like cool and nice, or it's like my neighborhood bar.
8:58 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
8:59 Georgia Hardstark? And Vince was like, that's, that actually fucks them over. Because the owner is like, why did they tip you this much? You must be giving away alcohol. And then they get in trouble.
9:07 Karen Kilgariff? God, I've never thought of that.
9:08 Georgia Hardstark? I haven't either.
9:09 Karen Kilgariff? Well, but not at a, like, a busy place. Not like at a major restaurant.
9:14 Georgia Hardstark? If, like, in a bar, if they see a tab that was like a $36 tab, and you tip them $50 on it, they're gonna be like, why did they tip you $50 on it? How many drinks did they actually get?
9:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, but that's pretty forensic account-y when people are just drunk and giving away money because they love the person that gave them the drinks.
9:32 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Is it a drunk-rich person? Or are you giving away drinks?
9:35 Karen Kilgariff? There's someone that's straight up bad at math.
9:38 Georgia Hardstark? That just wants to get the fuck out of there.
9:39 Karen Kilgariff? Do you know what I did the other night?
9:40 Georgia Hardstark? What?
9:41 Karen Kilgariff? I thought I would be cute and try to make the whole thing add up to an even number.
9:46 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
9:46 Karen Kilgariff? And fuck the waiter over by about $13.
9:50 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
9:50 Karen Kilgariff? And I just kept thinking about it. I ended, we went there a second night, so it's not a big deal. But I was just like, thinking about it, like, why was that the priority?
9:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
9:59 Karen Kilgariff? A round number for who?
10:00 Georgia Hardstark? It feels good. For you and not for the waiter.
10:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, but still, it doesn't feel good to me because I know I didn't get there. So it's, I'm always like, I think I minus it by $10. I still can't carry the one.
10:13 Georgia Hardstark? My grandma used to carry this card around that was like tipping, and the exact numbers for what you wanted to tip.
10:19 Karen Kilgariff? So it's kind of...
10:19 Georgia Hardstark? Why don't we have those anymore? They're called calculators in your phone. But I can't figure that out.
10:24 Karen Kilgariff? Right, because you'd have to kind of know. I want a little card that says, if you want to go...
10:28 Georgia Hardstark? Eighteen, twenty, twenty-two.
10:30 Karen Kilgariff? Small, regular, big, yeah.
10:31 Georgia Hardstark? All right.
10:32 Karen Kilgariff? We'll figure this out later.
10:33 Georgia Hardstark? Someday we will figure this out. In the meantime, true crime.
10:36 Karen Kilgariff? Let's do a true crime podcast.
10:37 Georgia Hardstark? We're going to Australia. This is an infamous Australian case that has technically been solved in that the alleged killer was sentenced, but to many Australians, it remains a mystery, both because they think the wrong man was sentenced, and also because the victim's body has never been found. And some people even question if there is a body to be found. There's a lot of debate over this. We're going to figure it out today.
11:01 Karen Kilgariff? Great.
11:02 Georgia Hardstark? And solve this one.
11:03 Karen Kilgariff? Let's do an on-air solve for once.
11:05 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. To those who believe justice was served, it's also a survival story, which, in which a young woman escaped her captor and lived to testify against him.
11:12 Karen Kilgariff? We love those stories.
11:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yep. And to everyone who doesn't, she's a liar who fabricated the entire story and is responsible for her boyfriend's disappearance. This is the story of the murder of Peter Falconio and the survival story of Joanne Lee's.
11:26 Karen Kilgariff? So you're about to tell a survival story, but we don't know how to interpret it?
11:31 Georgia Hardstark? We know.
11:32 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
11:32 Georgia Hardstark? She's telling the truth.
11:34 Karen Kilgariff? We do know that.
11:35 Georgia Hardstark? We do, you and I.
11:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
11:37 Georgia Hardstark? And a lot of people. But there's a lot of questions behind it, and that's partly because of the way the investigation was done and the way the trial and the evidence went, that people question a lot of things. And also, she's a woman who survived, and so people just immediately assume lots of stuff.
11:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, okay.
11:56 Georgia Hardstark? We'll get into it, and we'll get lots of hate mail about it. The main sources from the story are reporting from The Guardian and the Sydney Morning Herald, and also there's a documentary called Murder in the Outback, which I watched. The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. The documentary clearly thinks that the wrong person was put in prison, so I'm, you know, grain of salt.
12:14 Karen Kilgariff? There's a bias?
12:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
12:15 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
12:16 Georgia Hardstark? So it's late 2000. Peter Falconio and Joanne Lee's, they're 28 and 27 years old. They're a couple from England. They've been together about five years. If you want a picture of who I'm talking about, she could be played by Selma Blair, and he could be played by Sean Gunn, James Gunn's little brother from Guardians of the Galaxy. Here's a photo of actually the people.
12:36 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, okay.
12:37 Georgia Hardstark? She's really pretty. She's got like a Selma Blair meets Elizabeth Taylor, but British kind of a thing going.
12:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
12:43 Georgia Hardstark? And he's real cute and has a very sweet face and smile.
12:46 Karen Kilgariff? She looks like the sister from Peep Show, which is a deep cut.
12:49 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
12:50 Karen Kilgariff? Very similar to that actress.
12:51 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
12:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
12:52 Georgia Hardstark? So they met at a nightclub. Peter was a student at the University of Brighton and they moved in together and now they are living their 20-something dream. They're taking a year off to travel around the world, just kind of be like backpackers and explorers. They set out in November. They start in Asia and they travel to Nepal, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia, like something most of us would maybe do. Two of those in our lifetime.
13:18 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
13:18 Georgia Hardstark? You know?
13:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
13:19 Georgia Hardstark? In January of 2001, they arrive in Australia and they both get what's called a working holiday visa, meaning they're allowed to get jobs to fund the rest of their travels in Australia. So Peter and Joanne's parents are nervous about the Australia leg of the trip because there's recently been three highly publicized, highly violent incidents, two of which targeted backpackers. Those are the backpacker murders, which happened in the late 80s and early 90s, and you covered at a live show in Australia. It's episode 88 and it's just a fucking incredible story that I had never... Ivan Malat, right?
13:53 Karen Kilgariff? Ivan Malat and the survivor Paul Ingham.
13:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, right. And then there was also a horrible fire at a hostel in June of 2000, which had been started on purpose and killed 15 people.
14:04 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
14:04 Georgia Hardstark? So understandably, you know, these 20-somethings are in Australia. Their parents are worried, but for many months of the Australia leg, everything goes well. They stay in Sydney, Joanne gets a job in a bookstore and Peter works for a company that installs furniture and offices. They're just kind of like saving up to go on their next leg of their beautiful trip.
14:22 Karen Kilgariff? I would love to get a job in Sydney and just live there for a little while.
14:26 Georgia Hardstark? At a bookstore?
14:27 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, and just like kind of walk down by the harbor when you're done.
14:31 Georgia Hardstark? Also, I wonder, there's something about knowing your job isn't permanent. Like, this is not the rest of your fucking life.
14:35 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
14:35 Georgia Hardstark? This is like a stop in between adventures.
14:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
14:39 Georgia Hardstark? So 20s, man, you gotta do it.
14:40 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
14:41 Georgia Hardstark? This is your sign right now, everyone listening.
14:42 Karen Kilgariff? Just try stuff.
14:45 Karen Kilgariff? Were the people that are like, don't leave the house.
14:48 Georgia Hardstark? We really are.
14:48 Karen Kilgariff? Lock yourself indoors. And then we're like, but you know what?
14:50 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
14:51 Karen Kilgariff? Go to Australia.
14:52 Georgia Hardstark? So they are saving money for their next leg of the trip, which is going to be a huge road trip across Australia. And as we know from our tour there, there's like the big cities, Sydney and Melbourne and Brisbane, and then there's nothing fly over, like bushland and small towns and then Perth. And so there's a lot in between there that's just kind of long, quiet roads.
15:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yep. The outback, they call it.
15:19 Georgia Hardstark? The outback. Jesus. Thank you for doing my research for me. So they set off for that trip on June 25th, 2001, in an orange camper van. It's like a VW. And they plan to sleep in the van in the back or like go camping or sleep by the side of the road.
15:37 Karen Kilgariff? Boo.
15:39 Georgia Hardstark? I was like, you either look thrilled or like miserable.
15:41 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I've done it and I've done it in a VW van.
15:44 Georgia Hardstark? You have?
15:44 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yeah. That was my old life, Georgia. That was before I knew you. It is the kind of thing where you get to see amazing stuff up close. You get to camp in nature, which was like, you know, doing it like, say, in the California redwoods.
15:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
15:57 Karen Kilgariff? Can't recommend it enough. We were just surrounded. But for somebody like me, who's a real lover of nice hotels.
16:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:04 Karen Kilgariff? Go to hell.
16:05 Georgia Hardstark? Amenities.
16:06 Karen Kilgariff? Got to have them.
16:07 Georgia Hardstark? We love amenities.
16:08 Karen Kilgariff? Room service.
16:09 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
16:09 Karen Kilgariff? Just eating.
16:09 Georgia Hardstark? Indoor shower.
16:11 Karen Kilgariff? Hot, hot shower. You can just stand around in.
16:13 Georgia Hardstark? So first they go southwest. They stop in Canberra and in Melbourne. And then they start their trip by heading north. By July 11th, they arrive in a place called Alice Springs, which is a small city in Northern Territory. So there's all the different territories. This is Northern Territory. It's kind of basically in the center of Australia. And Alice Springs is the biggest outpost for many, many miles of barren outback. There's the word outback.
16:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
16:40 Georgia Hardstark? I looked it up and I saw it described many different ways online, this Northern Territory and this long stretch of the outback. And it seems like it's a town that's struggling to be touristy while dealing with lots of crime. And there's a lot of lingering racism against the Aboriginal population. I got this quote on Reddit. "The population is a real mixed bag from lefty arts degree kind of people working in government agencies to classic redneck outback bogan." And I don't know what bogan means. And then someone else wrote, "It's a place criminals go to hide." So they stay in Alice Springs for a few days. And it's kind of like the last stop between civilizations. And there's like little towns along the way, but not much else.
17:22 Georgia Hardstark? So on the evening of July 14th, Peter and Joanne leave Alice Springs, heading north towards the outback. It's also called the Red Center. Picture Las Vegas, that long stretch from LA to Las Vegas of nothing but desert. But the desert is all red, like this dusty, rusty looking red color. It's really beautiful. It's a very barren, kind of Vegas, Utah, Joshua Tree, open land with different kinds of bush, the bush.
17:49 Karen Kilgariff? It's bush country.
17:49 Georgia Hardstark? It's bush country. So at around 6:30 that evening, they stop at a rest stop where they share what the papers will later refer to as a joint of cannabis.
17:59 Georgia Hardstark? The press will make a big deal about this later. And then they continue on their way with Peter driving.
18:04 Karen Kilgariff? And he's just goes slightly off the road and comes back.
18:08 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
18:08 Karen Kilgariff? Ever so slightly off the road.
18:09 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So it's about 7:30 now. It's pitch black. There's no moon. I cannot even stress how dark it is out in the bush.
18:17 Karen Kilgariff? Can I just say this real quick? And it just came to me. Don't get high before you go drive through tens of or hundreds of miles of darkened
18:25 Georgia Hardstark? That you're unfamiliar with completely.
18:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
18:28 Georgia Hardstark? Let's remember they're from England, small town in England. Like one of the people that they met in Alice Springs was like, don't go at night. There's nothing.
18:35 Karen Kilgariff? There's no reason to do it.
18:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
18:37 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
18:37 Georgia Hardstark? It's like not safe and it's scary. So they're in a remote area. They're on their way to a settlement called Barrow Creek. Peter and Joanne notice a pickup truck with a canopy pulling beside the van and keeping pace with them. It's one of those, something's wrong with your car, pull over situations that we know all too well. And they had been having issues with the car. So they assume that's what he's pointing to. And she's like, don't pull over. I don't trust this guy. There's not traffic on this road at all. There's nobody around. But he pulls over anyways. So at this point, Joanne hasn't really gotten a great look at the guy, but she sees that he's wearing a baseball cap, has like a big mustache. And Peter walks around to the back of the car to talk with this guy. And they talk about.
19:22 Georgia Hardstark? Coming out of the exhaust pipe, baby. Peter comes back around and tells Joanne to sit in the driver's seat and rev the engine so they can see what's wrong with the car. She does that. She hears a loud bang, which at first she believes is the car backfiring. But then the man who had stopped them comes to the driver's side door where she is and points a silver handgun at Joanne and tells her to get out of the car. So she immediately realizes that the shot she heard was probably Peter getting shot. The man ties her wrists together with this like weird contraption and gets her into the passenger seat of his truck. And it's a green Toyota little truck with a canopy over the bed. And it's so specific. I'm gonna show you a photo. It's normal to Australia, but like, it almost looks like a little army van.
20:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:05 Georgia Hardstark? You know, with like a canvas top on the back.
20:07 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And the wheels are lifted a little bit so you can go over rocks.
20:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
20:11 Karen Kilgariff? You know what I mean?
20:12 Georgia Hardstark? It's made for the outback.
20:13 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
20:14 Georgia Hardstark? So this all comes from her after the fact, the one of the most terrifying traumatic moments of her life, that she explains what happened. And she's not totally clear. She doesn't remember a lot of it. But basically, she says she notices a stocky dog riding with him. And then the man throws her down, tries to tie her ankles as well. She fights back. And then he forces her into the bed of that truck. But then he leaves, she's tied up, he leaves to do something, presumably hide Peter's body, because if someone had been driving by, they would have seen that. And at that moment, she just has this, she says, quote, "A strange calmness came over me, almost like an acceptance, like this is it, I'm going to die. But then out of sheer terror, I realized that I
20:58 Georgia Hardstark? wasn't just going to die, he was going to rape me. And I believe that was the turning point, and that's what saved me, because I just, all of a sudden, from somewhere, found some strength." End quote. She pops up and she's able to get her ankles free, and she runs into the bush, like runs into the outback. And it's pitch black out there. She hides in a bush. The attacker comes after her, scans the area with a flashlight. It's completely black and somehow the flashlight never quite lands on her. She's laying flat.
21:29 Karen Kilgariff? There's nowhere to hide.
21:30 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
21:31 Karen Kilgariff? Somewhere like, I mean, like just the things I'm picturing of the TV shows I've seen that take place.
21:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
21:35 Karen Kilgariff? Places like that where it's just like, what do you get down by a plant on the ground?
21:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, that's exactly.
21:40 Karen Kilgariff? So stressful.
21:41 Georgia Hardstark? I know. He eventually gives up and goes back to the road. We're assuming that he wanted to get rid of Peter's body in case someone drove by. And he leaves and Joanne hides in that bush for five hours until 1:00 AM. When she feels safe enough to get out, she returns to the road and flags down a passing truck, like a semi.
22:00 Karen Kilgariff? Thank God something was passing.
22:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:03 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, and also how scary that would be to be standing there like, well, let's hope this person helps me.
22:08 Georgia Hardstark? Let's hope it's not the same person.
22:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, so scary.
22:11 Georgia Hardstark? The truck drivers, there's two of them and they are shocked to find her there. They say the fear in her face, they have never seen it before in their lives. It's, this is a terrified woman. They, they use the wire cutters to get the wrist stuff off. There's tape around her neck. They get that off. She's got cuts and scrapes everywhere. She was laying in the bush. And they drive her to the closest service station where they call the police, who arrive finally when the sun rises on June 15th and launch into one of the largest man hunts in Australian history. At the scene of the attack, they find a stain on the ground that's later determined to be Peter's blood. So there is a small pool of blood, but they always say that it doesn't seem like there's enough blood
22:50 Georgia Hardstark? and there's no like brain matter. If he really got shot in the head, there's inconsistencies there, but who knows? They also find the orange van that they were driving about 80 meters off the road, hidden in the brush. However, roadblocks don't get set up until around eight hours after the initial attack. So the search area is vast. It's about two times the state of Texas, the search area.
23:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh my God.
23:14 Georgia Hardstark? Helicopters scan the area, but they don't find anything.
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25:20 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
25:21 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series, Phony, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.
25:26 Karen Kilgariff? Sunny's life is pretty great. Until Till he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception, his mom.
25:33 Georgia Hardstark? To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.
25:39 Karen Kilgariff? As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.
25:47 Georgia Hardstark? Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?
25:50 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
25:58 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.
26:00 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
26:05 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye. Joanne, obviously, has just survived a terrifying ordeal, and so you would expect that she'd be treated with empathy and respect. However, it's the early 2000s, and she's a woman, not to mention young and pretty, and so you would be wrong.
26:20 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
26:21 Georgia Hardstark? A huge deal is made over the fact that she just straight up refuses to talk to the press. And there, you know, it's the thing that happens all the time, which is she didn't act the way a victim is supposed to act, which we now know is bullshit. She's kind of almost like hostilely ignoring the press.
26:40 Karen Kilgariff? Hostile ignoring, that's what I do. She's, that's a play right out of my playbook. I mean, also, the first thing I thought of when you said that was the dingos ate my baby.
26:51 Georgia Hardstark? That's what everyone talks about.
26:52 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
26:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, everyone talks about the Chamberlain case when this gets brought up because she was treated the same way and found out to be totally innocent. And she's taken the very next day to do a play-by-play reenactment of exactly what happened in the car. She walks everyone through it. She doesn't remember a lot of it, but she's very like composed, which of course, it's like, do you think maybe they gave her a valium? Do you think maybe she wanted to help the police? She's not going to break down crying in that moment. She's just like, it's just the judgment.
27:24 Karen Kilgariff? Have you ever compartmentalized?
27:25 Georgia Hardstark? Right, exactly.
27:26 Karen Kilgariff? You have to hire people that have alcoholic parents so that people understand all the tricks of the trade.
27:32 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, dissociation.
27:34 Karen Kilgariff? And she's there, yeah.
27:37 Karen Kilgariff? Chef's kiss to this association. But she's standing there like, yes, the trauma of her closest loved one murdered in front of her. And then I have to take these steps to get that murder solved.
27:49 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
27:49 Karen Kilgariff? Like, it's no time to be falling apart.
27:52 Georgia Hardstark? No, one of the things I tell you right now that I know and that you don't know, like, could help find my boyfriend if he's still alive. And, yeah.
28:00 Karen Kilgariff? That's supposed to be the agreement, anyway.
28:02 Georgia Hardstark? It is. The British and Australian press immediately pounce on her, like, they are hungry for this, like, wolves for this story. They suggest that her story might not be true, or that she's hiding parts of it. Joanne gives a press conference 11 days after the attack. And at the time, it's treated as her, like, finally deigning to speak to the press. And they immediately pick apart what she's wearing. She has, like, a tank top on that says cheeky monkey. I mean...
28:28 Karen Kilgariff? There was no PR training back then.
28:30 Georgia Hardstark? No, yeah. She doesn't play the victim the way they want her to. She doesn't play it smoothly.
28:35 Karen Kilgariff? Also, that's that kind of thing where it's like, you're trying to get an outfit together for a press conference, a thing you've never dressed for before. You don't have anybody on your side.
28:43 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
28:43 Karen Kilgariff? And probably if she's in grief, or whatever it is, it's like, you're just wearing this shirt you picked up and put on.
28:50 Georgia Hardstark? She's on a trip in a foreign country. She picks something out of her luggage and puts it on.
28:54 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I forgot about that part about it. It's only what she has.
28:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:58 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, God.
28:59 Georgia Hardstark? But during the press conference, she acts dismissive. She doesn't cry, which is of course reported on. But it's literally been less than two weeks since she was kidnapped that this happens. So even more articles come out. I mean, it's a huge cover story, doubting Joanne, saying her tone and behavior don't seem appropriate, blah, blah, blah, we all know that. And it seems like she's pretty pissed off at the press, as well as the police, who at this part start re-interviewing her, and this time with a tone that she's a suspect, not the victim. And there's video of this in the documentary. They start questioning her story. They say that they gave her statement to some, like, analysts who said there were 12 apparent inconsistencies.
29:42 Karen Kilgariff? Lies.
29:43 Georgia Hardstark? In her version of events, meaning, like, shit didn't add up. And it's like, oh, you mean the story that she told you when she's fucking traumatized? Maybe high. She was also high.
29:53 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, right.
29:53 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
29:54 Karen Kilgariff? A cannabis joint.
29:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
29:55 Karen Kilgariff? I forgot about that part.
29:56 Georgia Hardstark? So they're saying it's inconsistent with the truth.
29:59 Karen Kilgariff? Someone comes up and shoots your loved one in the head and then you have to tell the story correctly.
30:03 Georgia Hardstark? And have a gun in your face.
30:05 Karen Kilgariff? Right, right.
30:06 Georgia Hardstark? So she does get angry at them, you know. And then after three weeks of this DNA testing on the shirt she had been wearing at the time of the attack comes back and there is a small speck of blood on it that has nail DNA. It's not Peter's DNA. It doesn't belong to anyone in their database of criminals either. Police also turned up CCTV footage from a Shell gas station back in Alice Springs from just after midnight on the evening of the attack. The footage shows a Toyota truck with a canopy matching Joanne's description. You can't see the plate, though. And it shows a man going into the station. He's wearing a baseball cap. He has a mustache, just like Joanne said. We don't know if it's the person that she said it was.
30:48 Georgia Hardstark? It's just someone happens to drive in who matches the description at that time.
30:52 Karen Kilgariff? Multiple descriptions.
30:54 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
30:54 Karen Kilgariff? Car and face.
30:55 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Despite all this evidence, there are many stories picking apart minor inconsistencies. For example, there's conflicting details in a composite sketch. We don't even know if the guy in the Shell station is him. So if it's not consistent with him, it's maybe because it isn't him.
31:10 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
31:10 Georgia Hardstark? We don't know. So two years go by with occasional articles that still cast doubt on Joanne's story. Peter's body is never recovered and there's no meaningful leads. And then in 2002, a 42-year-old drug runner named Bradley John Murdock.
31:27 Karen Kilgariff? What? It's just, it's late in life to be a drug runner, I think. You just like, be a drug dealer at this point.
31:33 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So he's a bad dude. So people don't think he's guilty. People do. Either way, he's a criminal. He was in a motorcycle gang. He's been a drug runner for a long time. And there are some violent acts on his record as well.
31:49 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
31:50 Georgia Hardstark? He's a racist. He has racist tattoos. He's pulled a gun at a soccer game on an Aboriginal crowd. Like, he's not a good dude.
31:58 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
31:58 Georgia Hardstark? So he's arrested in connection with a Different case in which a 12 year old girl and her mother are both abducted from their home and they're bound and gagged, sexually assaulted and kidnapped for 20 hours, driven away. And this isn't mistaken identity, like they picked the wrong guy in a lineup. Like, they knew him. He lived in their back house.
32:19 Karen Kilgariff? And they identified him?
32:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. This is Bradley John Murdoch, the drug runner. And he's like 6'7", 6'8". He's a huge man. And when he's arrested, police noticed a few things. He had tie cables in his truck, consistent with what the mother and daughter said they were tied with, and also consistent with what Joanne had been tied with. The truck seems to match Joanne's description. It's the same one as we looked at. In fact, Murdoch had been tracked down and interviewed in 2001 because his truck matched the model in those gas station CCTV footage. I think they just questioned a lot of people with records who had that truck. But police had not gotten a DNA sample from him then. They get one now, it's tested, and it's found to be a match for the blood that had been on Joanne's shirt.
33:02 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
33:02 Georgia Hardstark? So it's a match.
33:03 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
33:03 Georgia Hardstark? And then he's acquitted of the case with the mother and daughter. It's a hung jury. It's just seems...
33:11 Karen Kilgariff? Jesus Christ.
33:12 Georgia Hardstark? It seems like, what's the word? It's...
33:14 Karen Kilgariff? So fucked up?
33:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. It's almost like they just put enough reasonable doubt into the jury's head that they didn't convict him, but it's clear to most of us that he did.
33:25 Karen Kilgariff? Got to have that evidence.
33:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. And then immediately as he's walking out of the courtroom, he's tackled by police and he's arrested for Peter's murder.
33:34 Karen Kilgariff? Oh shit.
33:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, they were like, ready to pounce. Yeah.
33:37 Karen Kilgariff? Incredible.
33:37 Georgia Hardstark? They're like, if he gets off on this, we're immediately bringing him in.
33:40 Karen Kilgariff? That had to feel good to like, that prosecutor, whatever, where it's like, go ahead and enjoy that two minutes of you got acquitted.
33:47 Georgia Hardstark? Right. The case attracts so much attention, the trial's delayed for a while. And so it eventually starts in October of 2005 in Darwin. Murdoch's lawyers use the angle of discrediting Joanne's testimony because she's ready to testify against him. This includes suggesting that she was having an affair while she was living in Sydney, which in fact, she had been cheating on Peter. She had an affair with a man, so they use that as part of the headlines.
34:14 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry, how old is she?
34:15 Georgia Hardstark? 27.
34:17 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, yeah. Isn't that what... Everyone does?
34:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and she admitted it. It wasn't like a revelation at trial. She admitted to the police.
34:26 Karen Kilgariff? She told them already?
34:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. She said that they had had an affair, they liked each other. She was gonna go on this trip with Peter and then they were gonna see where they landed. And she got put into like police custody and emailed him, this guy, while she was in police custody, like weeks after Peter's death or this incident and said, "When this is over, meet me in Berlin." It just didn't look good for her.
34:49 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
34:49 Georgia Hardstark? And that's why police were kind of going after her more.
34:53 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, even if it's purely like escapist and I just don't wanna be in a time where this is over, sorry, that's... First of all, can everyone just stop putting things in fucking writing? I mean, seriously?
35:06 Georgia Hardstark? She's not a perfect victim at all, which is upsetting to people, but doesn't mean she's not a victim.
35:11 Karen Kilgariff? This is worst-case scenario for if I was that defense lawyer. I would just be like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
35:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah.
35:19 Karen Kilgariff? Because this is motive now.
35:20 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Well, that's the other thing that's so fucking annoying is they're like, when people who say that Murdoch didn't do it, they say there's no motive. There's no motive because she fucking took off. The motive was to murder, was to sexually assault and rape this woman. Come on. Like, that's the motive, period.
35:37 Karen Kilgariff? No, you're completely right. I mean, like, the idea of a motive for a serial rapist is the act, so that doesn't make sense at all.
35:44 Georgia Hardstark? No.
35:45 Karen Kilgariff? Like, saying they didn't have money on them or something? Like, what the fuck?
35:49 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know. Yeah, or like trying to steal a car. It's, no, he killed the boyfriend and tied up and kept alive the girlfriend.
35:56 Karen Kilgariff? May I introduce you a bunch of other serial killers over history that we have talked about?
36:01 Georgia Hardstark? Seriously.
36:01 Karen Kilgariff? Which one do you wanna hear about? This is why we talk about it.
36:05 Georgia Hardstark? So Joanne testifies against Murdoch, who she has already identified in a photo lineup. Which also has some issues behind. If you watch the documentary, you'll see she might have seen this guy getting arrested in the news and then did the photo lineup and picked him.
36:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
36:21 Georgia Hardstark? The evidence against him in this whole trial like isn't great.
36:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
36:25 Georgia Hardstark? That's a lot of what people argue is based on the evidence, it doesn't show that he's guilty, even though he could be.
36:32 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
36:32 Georgia Hardstark? So that's difficult for people and I understand that.
36:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that is.
36:35 Georgia Hardstark? And so Murdoch is found guilty, both of the murder and of assaulting Joanne. He appeals his sentences multiple times unsuccessfully. Laws are passed in Australia that prevent any convicted murderer of being granted parole who has withheld the location of a body that has not been found. They keep saying, take us to the body. If he didn't do it, then he can't do that, though.
36:57 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
36:57 Georgia Hardstark? Right? In 2019, Murdoch is diagnosed with throat cancer and he died just about a year ago in July of 2025, without ever revealing the location of Peter Falconio's body. In the statement, the family says about Murdoch, quote, "We are only forced to think about him now that he's died. We don't want to let him ruin our lives more than he already has. The awful thing is our family's future with Peter was cruelly taken away. Today, we instead focus on the three children we have left and our grandchildren. We didn't have much faith, but we were hoping Bradley John Murdoch would reveal where Peter was before he died. But even now, we still hold out hope that his remains will be found." End quote.
37:37 Georgia Hardstark? And the Northern Territory Police are offering a reward of up to $500,000 for information leading to the recovery of Peter's remains. He would be 53 years old right now if he were still alive. And that is the story of the attack on Peter Falconio and Joanne Lee's.
37:56 Karen Kilgariff? Wow. Now, what would you do, knowing this story?
38:02 Karen Kilgariff? I only know what you just told me.
38:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:03 Karen Kilgariff? But knowing the story, if you found out they had DNA evidence that actually it was all her plan, like, would that shock you to your bones? Is that something you're like, it's absolutely not possible?
38:14 Georgia Hardstark? Based on the evidence, it's not possible. But based on the evidence against him, and there's other DNA evidence that doesn't check out, it's just a little like, it's hard to believe his, the story against Murdoch. I don't know. I don't know how to say. I would be very, very shocked if she had something to do with it.
38:34 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
38:35 Georgia Hardstark? What about you? You don't know, no?
38:36 Karen Kilgariff? Well, just based on what you told me, it's like, that idea, it's like, believe women always. And yet, we have told many stories about women who never stopped lying.
38:47 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
38:47 Karen Kilgariff? You know what I mean? Had very evil intent from early days. So it's not impossible. I just think it's fascinating. When cheaters cheat as if it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things, where it's like, you just put a little time bomb in your future.
39:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
39:05 Karen Kilgariff? That then tells the person that you care about the most, they cannot trust anything you say or do.
39:10 Georgia Hardstark? Right. But what's her motive, though? To be with this guy? Then just break up?
39:15 Karen Kilgariff? Break up.
39:15 Georgia Hardstark? With your boyfriend. They're not married. They have no financial ties. And that, there's just so many weird inconsistencies. And I think that the police investigation, because of the way it was done, first and foremost, made it so that it'd be really hard to convict someone for this and have everyone believe they got the right guy.
39:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
39:32 Georgia Hardstark? So, anything about her being guilty based on that evidence also can't be trusted.
39:38 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
39:38 Georgia Hardstark? So I just don't think, there's more evidence that this guy Murdoch is guilty than she is. And even that is kind of loose.
39:46 Karen Kilgariff? Right. Although, just that the affair really
39:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
39:50 Karen Kilgariff? screws it.
39:51 Georgia Hardstark? It's not good. But then why
39:52 Karen Kilgariff? In terms of motive.
39:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. The other thing people talk about is like, why would, how, she'd never been to this place, this remote place in the middle of nowhere. How are you going to plan this perfect crime and get away with it?
40:04 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
40:05 Georgia Hardstark? Is there other, but there are little weird things, like the dog that was with him. She identified as the wrong kind of dog, which just shows that maybe it's not Murdoch. But also, she told him she got in the truck. He forced her in the truck this way, and there's actually no way to get into the truck that way. But it's like she was traumatized and she was going through it. She remembered it incorrectly.
40:23 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, something like that, and I'm just guessing, obviously, but it sounds like the kind of thing where cops went and reenacted something later on. It's like, well, she's saying she did this.
40:31 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
40:32 Karen Kilgariff? And then you want to go, how big was the cop that was playing her?
40:35 Georgia Hardstark? Right. How big is she? She went and did the reenactment.
40:38 Karen Kilgariff? She is six foot eight, also.
40:42 Georgia Hardstark? And the other thing is
40:42 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, she went and said, she's, so she's standing there going, this is how I did it. And you're like, you couldn't have.
40:47 Georgia Hardstark? Step by step, yeah. And they're like, that doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. There's also the theory that people believe that Peter Falconio is still alive and had just faked his own death and disappeared. And maybe she helped him with it, and that's why she's lying. People say that they've seen him.
41:04 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, some people say she's in on it, some people say she's not.
41:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but that he's still alive and he, like, just escaped his life.
41:12 Karen Kilgariff? And she's basically, this is her cover story?
41:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Or
41:16 Karen Kilgariff? Or she's not in on it.
41:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
41:18 Karen Kilgariff? Those two guys, it's like, I'm kidnapping your boyfriend.
41:20 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
41:21 Karen Kilgariff? I think that's the most male ideal version. We're just like, no, these are two guys having a prank. It's not a man killing the man so he can rape the woman.
41:32 Georgia Hardstark? And then there's no motive again. Like, he didn't have this crazy debt. He had a lovely family and
41:36 Karen Kilgariff? He's young.
41:37 Georgia Hardstark? He was a very sweet guy. Everyone loved him.
41:39 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
41:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
41:40 Karen Kilgariff? Well.
41:40 Georgia Hardstark? But I, I think all of it just is, it's just all smoke and mirrors to point away from the person who most likely murdered him in the exact way that she said it happened.
41:51 Karen Kilgariff? It's interesting because I feel like those, I saw them after the fact eyewitness things.
41:57 Georgia Hardstark? So not helpful.
41:58 Karen Kilgariff? It just feels like they're always wrong.
42:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
42:00 Karen Kilgariff? But I mean, man, please come back to me about this within three months because I don't. This is frustrating.
42:08 Georgia Hardstark? I will. I know you hate it. And it's not a cold case. I didn't give you a cold case. It's solved. It's, it's still frustrating.
42:16 Karen Kilgariff? It's considered solved. Yeah, that's tough.
42:19 Georgia Hardstark? Well, also, the police wanted to solve it as soon as possible to, for tourism's sake, you know, and show that they had got the right guy. You'd think that she would have said that he was six foot eight or whatever when describing her attacker. Doesn't seem like she got a great look at him, but.
42:37 Karen Kilgariff? She's in the passenger side. He pulls up behind them and says, pull over, something's wrong. She's sitting in the passenger seat. She's talking to him. She, if she did turn around, it would be headlights in her eyes.
42:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. All of the inconsistencies on her, that they place on her can be explained.
42:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
42:53 Georgia Hardstark? By logic.
42:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
42:55 Georgia Hardstark? So, yeah.
42:56 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
42:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
42:57 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. Well, great job.
42:59 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
42:59 Karen Kilgariff? Compelling and interesting and important.
43:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
43:02 Karen Kilgariff? Uh, God, I hope.
43:05 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
43:05 Karen Kilgariff? It would just be nice.
43:06 Georgia Hardstark? I'll let you know.
43:06 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, thank you.
43:08 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.
43:13 Karen Kilgariff? Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception, his mom.
43:21 Georgia Hardstark? To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.
43:26 Karen Kilgariff? As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.
43:34 Georgia Hardstark? Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house?
43:37 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
43:45 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series Phony.
43:47 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.
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44:23 Karen Kilgariff? Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.
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44:58 Karen Kilgariff? I really do love Kachava and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.
45:09 Georgia Hardstark? It's such an easy way to get everything you need and it tastes good too, which is just huge bonus.
45:13 Karen Kilgariff? So embrace your salty side.
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45:19 Karen Kilgariff? That's Kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM. Goodbye.
45:26 Karen Kilgariff? We're gonna take a left turn today in honor of the World Cup.
45:30 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
45:30 Karen Kilgariff? That's happening here in the United States of America. Did you hear about any of this?
45:34 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
45:34 Karen Kilgariff? It's bringing worlds together.
45:36 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing.
45:37 Karen Kilgariff? People are having a, this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius moment. Boston and Glasgow, I believe, are now deeply in love and getting married. You're watching a lot of people from the UK come over and like eat real southern food in Georgia and lose their fucking mind.
45:53 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing. I heard something about ranch dressing being prevalent.
45:56 Karen Kilgariff? People are sending it back to themselves. People are getting caught with it in their carry-ons.
46:00 Georgia Hardstark? I love it.
46:01 Karen Kilgariff? And I think for a lot of people here, it's like people here are being reminded of why this is a great country. Somebody-
46:09 Georgia Hardstark? Ranch dressing.
46:09 Karen Kilgariff? It's ranch dressing and southern food. And someone said it's like, I've heard this twice now, it's like we're all cousins and our parents don't get along, so we don't like each other.
46:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
46:21 Karen Kilgariff? And we finally got dropped off and we get to have a sleepover.
46:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
46:24 Karen Kilgariff? And now everyone's having a great time and going, fuck our parents, they're keeping us apart.
46:27 Georgia Hardstark? You realize you've been lied to this whole time by your parents and these kids are awesome. Love that.
46:31 Karen Kilgariff? Countries are not the governments. That make terrible decisions for them.
46:35 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
46:35 Karen Kilgariff? It's the people.
46:36 Georgia Hardstark? They force us to pay taxes that go to do terrible things, but we don't want that.
46:41 Karen Kilgariff? We don't want it and we love our fellow man.
46:43 Georgia Hardstark? We do.
46:44 Karen Kilgariff? It's all very beautiful. TikTok.com if you want to get, if you want to jump in on it. It's pretty lovely. So kind of in celebration of that and the fact that I think I've told you this story, but Robin Colasing and I, my sister's friend Adrienne's husband, if we can, we will watch World Cup games. If I'm like home for the summer or around.
47:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
47:00 Karen Kilgariff? And the fun thing about it, we started doing it when we were on vacation. Hawaii is getting up and watching them at like 3:30 in the morning.
47:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
47:07 Karen Kilgariff? And so be like, someone would get donuts the night before and we would do this whole thing. And then we would be the weirdos in the front room. And of course I don't care about soccer one way or the other, but it was, I love being up in the middle of the night for no reason, for like a weird reason.
47:20 Georgia Hardstark? Love it.
47:20 Karen Kilgariff? And we're going to do it again when I go home for 4th of July. I know, I'm very excited. By the time this episode airs, which will be on Thursday, July 9th, it'll be the semifinals starting.
47:30 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
47:31 Karen Kilgariff? And just for your own interest, we have more than 27,000 listeners in Chile.
47:37 Georgia Hardstark? Really?
47:38 Karen Kilgariff? And 90,000 in Brazil.
47:41 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
47:42 Karen Kilgariff? So for the listeners that are in those countries, hi, we can't believe you listen to this podcast.
47:47 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
47:48 Karen Kilgariff? We're so excited.
47:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, welcome.
47:51 Karen Kilgariff? Absolutely. Welcome. Maybe.
47:53 Georgia Hardstark? Benvenidos.
47:53 Karen Kilgariff? Google how to say it correctly. Don't use AI. So we're just very excited that you're here. So this story begins September 3rd, 1989.
48:04 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
48:04 Karen Kilgariff? Just before 5 o'clock PM. It's the South American qualifiers for the 1990 World Cup at the Americana Stadium in Rio de Janeiro. The match is between Brazil and Chile. I'm pronouncing it Chile because that's how you're supposed to pronounce it, but it makes it sound like I know what I'm doing and I absolutely do not, but I feel self-conscious about it. But I'll still say it.
48:27 Georgia Hardstark? We appreciate that.
48:27 Karen Kilgariff? Kind of like an art teacher in high school where it's like, have you ever been to Chile or Brazil? So in this match that I'm telling you about, it's about to take place. Brazil has the advantage, they have the home field advantage, but also Brazil in the soccer. Football, as the rest of the entire globe calls it. In football, Brazil is a powerhouse. The kids play with a smaller, heavier ball as they grow up. So by the time they get to the bigs or even the mids, they are faster and sharper and better at soccer. And it's Brazil is where Pele is from.
49:06 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
49:07 Karen Kilgariff? Who's the greatest, many believe the greatest of all time. Basically, Chile is going into this, the underdog, just because Brazil is like the Yankees of football.
49:16 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
49:16 Karen Kilgariff? Do not write in. No one cares.
49:19 Georgia Hardstark? We don't know.
49:20 Karen Kilgariff? How right or wrong I am.
49:21 Georgia Hardstark? You don't care? Thank you.
49:23 Karen Kilgariff? Just slightly defensive about how much I don't know about what I'm talking about. Okay, so Brazil has won the World Cup five times, more than any other country. But the Chilean fans still have faith their team could beat the odds, thanks in no small part to their 32-year-old captain and the goalkeeper, Roberto Rojas. Robert the Red. He is ready to do whatever it takes to get his team to the World Cup. And that ambition will lead to one of the most notorious incidents in South American sports history.
49:54 Georgia Hardstark? I think I know what you're gonna say.
49:55 Karen Kilgariff? This is the story of the 1989 Brazil versus Chile World Cup qualifiers.
50:01 Georgia Hardstark? Is this the wrong goal story?
50:04 Karen Kilgariff? There's a lot of elements to this story. Can you see it?
50:07 Georgia Hardstark? What?
50:08 Karen Kilgariff? Are there waves coming? I'm having the hugest hot flash right now.
50:11 Georgia Hardstark? Oh. I thought you were like, please, how angry I am.
50:14 Karen Kilgariff? Can you see how much I love football?
50:16 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
50:16 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. So the main sources used for today's story are an episode of ESPN's 34-30 podcast, not 30 by 30, the measurements that I once said that show was entitled by. Also, a 2025 episode of BBC's Sporting Witness podcast and an article by a writer named Daniel Edwards at a little website called gmail.com. And the rest of those sources are in our show notes. So there's already been drama between Brazil and Chile before the playoff match that I'm talking about. Two years before 1987, they went up against each other. In an early round of a tournament called the Copa America, which is between all the Southern American men's national football teams.
51:01 Karen Kilgariff? Brazil is the favorite to win once again. But when they go head to head with Chile, Chile ends up beating them in a stunning 4-0 upset.
51:11 Georgia Hardstark? Oh shit.
51:12 Karen Kilgariff? So the goalie of Chile's team, Roberto Rojas, plays a flawless game. He does not let a single goal get by him, which is no small feat. As journalist Daniel Alarcón puts it, quote, "Quite frankly, goalkeepers are insane. A good goalkeeper has a certain amount of disregard for his or her own safety. They live on the edge."
51:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, terrifying.
51:34 Karen Kilgariff? So scary. So over his decade-long career, Rojas has done just that, earning respect with his passion, fearlessness, and athleticism that he plays with. Let's take a picture.
51:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, please.
51:46 Karen Kilgariff? There he is, superstar of Chile football. He's been caught up in a couple noteworthy scandals, though, from earlier in his career. One involved him lying about his age so he could participate in youth tournaments. It's odd. And another involving doping. Pretty standard scandals for football players. But he is, despite that, a national hero. The fans call him El Condor, because condors are the national symbol of Chile. We're gonna learn a lot today.
52:17 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
52:17 Karen Kilgariff? And they kind of think he looks like a condor. So it's, but it's all a form of respect.
52:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
52:24 Karen Kilgariff? So basically, when Chile goes and whips Brazil's ass at the Copa America in 1987, his national icon status is truly cemented. And ultimately, Chile places second in that tournament. They, as a country, have appeared at the World Cup several times. Their best run was in 1962. This is Chile, when they came in third place. But now this World Cup tournament in 1990 that's gonna be in Italy, this feels like it's their big chance. It's the final days of the brutal military dictatorship of Pinochet. It's a time of major political and social upheaval in the country. Soccer matches have become places where,
53:05 Karen Kilgariff? impassioned Chileans can express their national pride on a global stage. So there's a lot in it for them. The 1989 World Cup qualifiers have Chile and Brazil face off again. They play two games in this qualifier. The first one takes place in Santiago on August 13th at the city's National Stadium. It's called National Stadium. It's nearly at capacity. The crowd is riled up. Look how big the stadium is, just to give you the sense of- Holy shit. It's super bull size and level. I mean, obviously, we know this, but- Yeah. The rest of the world's football is our football. Wow. With different shaped balls. So, all those people going crazy.
53:47 Karen Kilgariff? Normally, both football teams playing that day come out of that tunnel and onto the field together, mostly so that riled up fans don't throw shit at the opposing team, right? So if they're both there, nobody throws anything. And so that is just basically standard play for these qualifiers. But on this day, before Brazil is ready to go, team captain Roberto Rojas just has his team go out first. He leads them out onto the field without Brazil, forcing Brazil to walk into this packed stadium alone. It's an explicit break from protocol. It's meant to rattle Brazil in a crucial pre-game moment. But it's also part of a larger mentality that Chilean journalist Danilo Diaz shorthands
54:32 Karen Kilgariff? as, quote, "Más bandidos que los bandidos," which means, "more bandits than the bandits." Which is basically, "they're going to fuck with you, so fuck with them first." Right. That's kind of the motto in podcasting. Yeah. Not all teams of this era are of this Machiavellian mindset, where the end justifies the means, but some do. And in ESPN's 30 for 30 podcast, they cite a few stories about various Latin American clubs accused of allegedly doing these, these moves. Some have been accused of allegedly drugging their opponents before match- Holy shit. I'd do that to you, all the time. Yeah, right. For your podcast. That was a good one. I have a question.
55:16 Karen Kilgariff? They've also been accused of covertly photographing these players in compromising situations with sex workers, then blowing those pictures up and hanging them around the arena before the game starts.
55:30 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, that is vicious.
55:32 Karen Kilgariff? It's fucking insane. Some club managers have been accused of releasing a small dog onto the pitch when the team is ahead to basically run down the clock.
55:43 Georgia Hardstark? Oh geez.
55:44 Karen Kilgariff? That's the, that's the third in that list, the least bad. But it's all dirty play and the list goes on and on. So Roberto's move of walking out without the Brazilian team, you know, is kind of that muscling that they do, and it definitely sets a palpable feeling of hostility in the stadium that of course, it's even before gameplay, once the game starts, that tone increases dramatically. So now we're just a minute and a half into the game when a Chilean midfielder aggressively tackles a Brazilian player and injures him. Somehow that Chilean player only gets a yellow card, which is the official warning card. But then as the injured Brazilian player is being taken off the field, a fight breaks
56:28 Karen Kilgariff? out between other players and someone else is injured, and this time a Brazilian player is given a red card, which means he is now kicked out of the game. Afterward, that Brazilian player will tell reporters, quote, "I didn't hit him that hard." So it just started with a bit of violence. Around minute 14, the Chilean player who got the yellow card tries to trip a Brazilian midfielder, and when he realizes he is going to get carded again, which probably means he's going to get red carded, he tries to intimidate the ref.
57:00 Georgia Hardstark? Oh no.
57:01 Karen Kilgariff? So then a Brazilian player steps in to defend the ref while several Chilean players grab their teammate, try to get him to calm down and come over to the bench, basically. And they are all worried he's becoming a liability. So it's a pretty even match between the two teams, and the goalie, Roberto Rojas, is playing a near-perfect game. He defends shot after shot made by Brazil. By halftime, the score is zero to zero, which is a very big deal when teams are playing against Brazil, to just to keep them from scoring.
57:33 Georgia Hardstark? Oh really?
57:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, because you can end in a tie, and you can end, just keep them from scoring and get one more than them, and that's all you need to do. I just explained all sports. But 11 minutes into the match's second half, things take a turn when a Chilean defender near the goal, so basically Roberto Rojas, the goalie, is back here by the goal box. And nearby, one of the, another Chilean player needs to basically kick the ball down there so they can go start playing on the other end of the field. But like you anticipated, yep.
58:07 Georgia Hardstark? Sorry.
58:08 Karen Kilgariff? Yep, when he goes to do this, no, because it's famous, he goes to do it and instead of sending it, he hits the back of his own player and it bounces off that guy's leg and goes into the fucking net.
58:19 Georgia Hardstark? So he scores on his own team.
58:22 Karen Kilgariff? On his own team for Brazil.
58:24 Georgia Hardstark? I only know about this because of Vince explaining it to me and it's just.
58:27 Karen Kilgariff? It's a nightmare.
58:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
58:29 Karen Kilgariff? And of course, now there's already hostility and bad vibes in the stadium, people go nuts.
58:34 Georgia Hardstark? So he does that on his own home team field with an audience full of.
58:39 Karen Kilgariff? Nightmare.
58:40 Georgia Hardstark? Like hardcore fans.
58:42 Karen Kilgariff? Tensions are high now this gigantic mistake from the underdog team.
58:46 Georgia Hardstark? Now that I know you're doing this story, I can't believe it. This is so fucked up.
58:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's crazy.
58:50 Georgia Hardstark? I love it, yeah.
58:51 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, it's an accidental assisted goal for Brazil. As I said, the bad vibes go from bad to rotten. The score is now 1 to 0 Brazil.
59:00 Georgia Hardstark? But is it the fault of the guy who kicked it or the guy who ricocheted off of?
59:03 Karen Kilgariff? The kicker.
59:04 Georgia Hardstark? But he, okay, he kicked it to his.
59:06 Karen Kilgariff? To his guy, I mean, like, who knows?
59:08 Georgia Hardstark? It's nobody's fault.
59:09 Karen Kilgariff? I literally have watched four soccer games and without a pause, I'm like, it's the fault of the man with the leg. How do I know?
59:16 Georgia Hardstark? I played soccer as a kid. Oh, I swear.
59:19 Karen Kilgariff? I love orange slices.
59:20 Georgia Hardstark? It really is.
59:20 Karen Kilgariff? I think it's like, I would say primary kicker because he was supposed to kick it up and far and then he just kicked it straight over to that guy.
59:27 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
59:28 Karen Kilgariff? Nightmare. So now there's just seven minutes left in the game and another bizarre thing happens.
59:33 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
59:34 Karen Kilgariff? After a Brazilian foul, Chile is given a free kick, right? The underdogs have a chance.
59:40 Georgia Hardstark? You can fucking even it up. As long as you don't lose with that point.
59:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
59:44 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone will be fine.
59:45 Karen Kilgariff? Just clear, clear it.
59:47 Georgia Hardstark? Ah.
59:48 Karen Kilgariff? But when the Brazilian players hear that Chile's being given a free kick, all the Brazilian players on the field, including their goalie, get furious and they start arguing and confronting the refs and going crazy that this is not fair. And as they're doing that. A Chilean player that's near the ball realizes they never called timeout. And he very subtly passes the ball to a teammate who then just kicks it straight into the goal. It is legal play and they make that point.
1:00:20 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
1:00:21 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
1:00:22 Georgia Hardstark? So Chile gets a goal, so we're one to one.
1:00:25 Karen Kilgariff? We're one to one.
1:00:25 Georgia Hardstark? Everything's gonna be fine.
1:00:27 Karen Kilgariff? So, isn't that insane?
1:00:29 Georgia Hardstark? That is so bananas.
1:00:31 Karen Kilgariff? They actually review it and it's decided, it's declared legal.
1:00:34 Georgia Hardstark? They yell like, timeout or whatever.
1:00:36 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, they must have, right? So the game ends in a tie, one to one.
1:00:39 Georgia Hardstark? Phew.
1:00:40 Karen Kilgariff? Well, the crowd, they were growing pissed off before, but now the game's over and no one's satisfied. It's like both teams lost to them, essentially. So as the teams walk off the field, the fans just start throwing, they throw batteries, they throw rocks, they throw anything they can.
1:00:56 Georgia Hardstark? Was it battery and rock night?
1:00:57 Karen Kilgariff? It was. B Y O B or R.
1:01:02 Georgia Hardstark? They just hand them out when you walk in.
1:01:04 Karen Kilgariff? Who's got those?
1:01:05 Georgia Hardstark? Come to battery night at Dodger Stadium.
1:01:07 Karen Kilgariff? They said, well, it was like, you know, it was 1990, so there's people with radios.
1:01:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:01:12 Karen Kilgariff? But still, it's just a little battery.
1:01:13 Georgia Hardstark? They're like, I'm not throwing my radio, I'm taking my fucking battery.
1:01:16 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. Honey, give me your purse. Later on in the locker room, a reporter calls Roberto out for fanning the flames of the fan hostilities by leaving Brazil in the tunnel when they were walking out.
1:01:29 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
1:01:30 Karen Kilgariff? And Roberto responds by saying, quote, "Man, we have to use everything we can to win."
1:01:35 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:01:36 Karen Kilgariff? So there's another game left between these two teams. So they have a final kind of chance to reverse this. Both teams do.
1:01:44 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:01:45 Karen Kilgariff? According to the way the point system works in the World Cup qualifiers, Chile has to win by at least one goal to stay in the running to play in the World Cup.
1:01:53 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. They just need to get a point.
1:01:55 Karen Kilgariff? They need to get a point.
1:01:56 Georgia Hardstark? One more point than the other guy.
1:01:57 Karen Kilgariff? One more point.
1:01:57 Georgia Hardstark? Which is how you win.
1:01:59 Karen Kilgariff? Everything. Now we're back where we started. It's September 3rd, 1989. We're in Rio de Janeiro. We're at the Maracana Stadium. The energy could not be more different than it was in Santiago. The vibes are great. It's described later as a 150,000 person party with a mostly Brazilian crowd. They're all wearing the country's colors. They have tambourines. They have little drums. They're shooting off flares. They're shooting off fireworks in the stands.
1:02:26 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus.
1:02:27 Karen Kilgariff? And they're all hot. So it's just a great time.
1:02:29 Georgia Hardstark? They're all hot, as in like, good looking?
1:02:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we're in Brazil. So the match begins and like probably every other team on Chile, Roberto, the goalie, is playing like his life depends on it. He blocks shot after shot from the Brazilian offenders. The crowd's keyed up. They're cheering when Brazil launches balls towards Chile's goal because it's home team. And when Roberto blocks it, they jeer and they boo and doesn't matter, doesn't shake him. At halftime, the score is still 0-0, which is huge for Chile. They are preventing Brazil from scoring.
1:03:04 Georgia Hardstark? But if they tie, then Brazil wins.
1:03:06 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
1:03:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, okay.
1:03:08 Karen Kilgariff? It's like a sudden death situation.
1:03:10 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
1:03:10 Karen Kilgariff? So less than five minutes into the second half, a shot finally gets past Roberto. Brazil scores. The stadium erupts in cheers. Doesn't let up. It's now 1-0 Brazil. So everyone, of course, is locked on this game play as the Chileans now have the ball. They're driving it down the field. Some are looking toward their end where Roberto Rojas is standing in the goal box. When a flare suddenly comes down out of the audience and falls onto the field.
1:03:40 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:03:41 Karen Kilgariff? Like, near him. It lands in a plume of smoke that just seems to swallow him whole.
1:03:47 Georgia Hardstark? Dumbledore?
1:03:49 Georgia Hardstark? Is it Dumbledore?
1:03:50 Karen Kilgariff? Is it Job from Arrested Development? After a moment, the smoke clears and the crowd looks in horror as they watch Roberto Rojas writhing around on the ground in pain, clutching his bloody face.
1:04:04 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god, I didn't know this.
1:04:06 Karen Kilgariff? He's immediately carried off the field and into the locker room.
1:04:09 Georgia Hardstark? Oh no.
1:04:09 Karen Kilgariff? I think we have a picture of the flare falling onto the field
1:04:13 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:04:14 Karen Kilgariff? during the game.
1:04:15 Georgia Hardstark? Some drunk person just, holy shit.
1:04:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:04:17 Georgia Hardstark? It's like a firework.
1:04:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And then we have photos, of course, of him being carried off, bloody, being carried off the field. That's him down there and you can see the blood from this side.
1:04:29 Georgia Hardstark? God, that's violent.
1:04:30 Karen Kilgariff? It's crazy. So they get him into the locker room and they find a one and a quarter inch gash across his forehead. In protest of what seems like a blatant attack on their captain by a crazed fan, the Chile players refuse to continue this game. Brazil meanwhile is stunned. They have no idea what's happened. They know it's serious and they also know that this happening could hand Chile the automatic win.
1:04:54 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:04:55 Karen Kilgariff? So in the aftermath of the game's abrupt ending, many Chileans are of course furious. So it's another one of these weird endings where it's all of a sudden we're just in this insane medical problem and no one really knows what's going on. Some of the Chileans even go protest outside of the Brazilian embassy in Santiago when they go back home.
1:05:15 Georgia Hardstark? Well, aren't the Brazilians pissed too though? Because they were gonna win, you know.
1:05:20 Karen Kilgariff? Well, they don't know what's going on. So they don't, they think that maybe their, a fan of theirs is who did this.
1:05:26 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:05:26 Karen Kilgariff? Like through this flare.
1:05:28 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:05:28 Karen Kilgariff? Right? That it was kind of an attack.
1:05:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:05:30 Karen Kilgariff? And so they're just kind of not sure what to do about it. But Chile is like, you have attacked our player. You did this on purpose.
1:05:36 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:05:37 Karen Kilgariff? There's a lot of emotion on the Chilean side, but there's healthy speculation and suspicion about what happened on the Brazilian side. Many onlookers are wondering how a flare would result in the laceration instead of resulting in burns.
1:05:52 Georgia Hardstark? Huh.
1:05:52 Karen Kilgariff? Roberto has no burns. He's insisting the injury was a result of that flare and there is no evidence anything different happened.
1:06:00 Georgia Hardstark? How would he know that was gonna happen? And then like, it's not like he's a wrestler who has like a fucking razor blade in his shit.
1:06:08 Karen Kilgariff? Hidden, yeah, up his sleeve. Right, exactly. So even though hundreds of cameras are present at the match that day, it's initially thought they were all pointed down toward the opposite end of the field.
1:06:17 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:06:18 Karen Kilgariff? Until. Within hours, a photographer named Ricardo Alfieri comes forward saying that during the game, he saw the flare out of the corner of his eye, and he whipped around and snapped five shots as the flare fell to the ground.
1:06:33 Georgia Hardstark? Oh shit.
1:06:34 Karen Kilgariff? And his undeveloped photos get shopped around. He basically goes and shops them to all the Brazilian newspapers. And a newspaper called Oglobo is the one who gets them, buys them. And in the middle of the night, calls the head of their photo lab. She's fast asleep at home. They say, get in here and develop these pictures for us. It is unclear how much Alfieri is paid.
1:06:56 Georgia Hardstark? I want to know.
1:06:57 Karen Kilgariff? ESPN says it's around $5,000.
1:07:00 Georgia Hardstark? In 1989?
1:07:02 Karen Kilgariff? Eighty-nine.
1:07:02 Georgia Hardstark? Eighty-nine, 5,000. Today is 10,000?
1:07:06 Karen Kilgariff? 13,000.
1:07:07 Georgia Hardstark? Shit.
1:07:08 Karen Kilgariff? Close, though. But no one attempts to translate it in Brazilian money.
1:07:11 Georgia Hardstark? Sure, that's the reason.
1:07:13 Karen Kilgariff? We can just assume that it's, he got a bunch of money, much higher than the going rate.
1:07:17 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:07:18 Karen Kilgariff? So these five photographs run in the Oglobo newspaper the next morning in full color.
1:07:23 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
1:07:24 Karen Kilgariff? And they clearly show this flare landing several feet behind Roberto Rojas, making no contact with him.
1:07:32 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:07:33 Karen Kilgariff? Then, him throwing his body into the plume of smoke and basically becoming a part of it. There's no contact between this flare and Roberto Rojas. And these photos, like, show that very clearly.
1:07:48 Georgia Hardstark? But he's not even close to it.
1:07:50 Karen Kilgariff? It's back there. And he's claiming that the cut is on his forehead.
1:07:53 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:07:54 Karen Kilgariff? And then, basically, the pictures go
1:07:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:07:56 Karen Kilgariff? that he throws himself into the flare.
1:07:58 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
1:07:59 Karen Kilgariff? And then there's blood, right? So now everyone thinks it's in the newspaper. So now everyone thinks it's an elaborate stunt.
1:08:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh shit.
1:08:06 Karen Kilgariff? When police track down the person who set off the flare, they find out it's a young Brazilian fan in her twenties named, we're not sure about the pronunciation of this fan's name, but we think it's Rosaneri Mayo. So, setting off flares was very common at football games in South America, or at least, you know, firecrackers and flares, whatnot, in the 80s. They would do it a lot. Hers just happened to be the one that hit the field.
1:08:33 Georgia Hardstark? She pointed it towards the field?
1:08:35 Karen Kilgariff? Well, toward the field, but not toward a person.
1:08:36 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:08:37 Karen Kilgariff? So she's eventually cleared of any involvement in like a conspiracy to injure Rojas. But in a weird twist, the public interest around her becomes so intense, she basically becomes an overnight celebrity. For setting the flare. And a few months later, in November of the same year, she's on the cover of Brazilian Playboy.
1:08:57 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:08:57 Karen Kilgariff? I told you everyone was hot at this game.
1:08:59 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:09:00 Karen Kilgariff? She's basically identified as the Maracana fireworks girl.
1:09:04 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, she went viral before going viral is viral.
1:09:07 Karen Kilgariff? She's like, I'm in this too. But in the end, the investigators conclude Roberto's gash was self inflicted.
1:09:13 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck. What, did he like hit his head on the ground or something?
1:09:16 Karen Kilgariff? Basically, he saw the flare drop.
1:09:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:09:20 Karen Kilgariff? And then he opportunistically was like, he basically was going to injure himself. And then basically, he thought the flare is the perfect excuse to be injured. But basically, he doesn't talk about any of this. He keeps his mouth shut. FIFA, which is the international football governing body, declares Chile the match losers and advances Brazil to the 1990 World Cup. And then months later, after investigating FIFA, hands Roberto a lifetime ban from competition. The team Chile is fined $31,000. And that's how much in today's money.
1:09:59 Georgia Hardstark? $56,000.
1:10:01 Karen Kilgariff? $80,000.
1:10:01 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
1:10:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yep. So basically Roberto finally has to come clean. And he reveals he slashed himself with a razor blade that he'd hidden in his goalie gloves.
1:10:11 Georgia Hardstark? Oh shit.
1:10:12 Karen Kilgariff? Before the match began.
1:10:15 Georgia Hardstark? What? He's just waiting for a moment to do this?
1:10:17 Karen Kilgariff? He basically had a backup.
1:10:21 Karen Kilgariff? So that in case it was needed, this could take place because they knew that, you know, like the dirty play was going to happen.
1:10:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:10:28 Karen Kilgariff? Anything could happen. They had to be ready. Idea.
1:10:31 Georgia Hardstark? Got it. But you ended up being the dirty player.
1:10:34 Karen Kilgariff? And bad dirty.
1:10:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:10:37 Karen Kilgariff? He basically says that the idea of doing this was like an insurance policy idea that was lingering in his head, or even an escape hatch to get Chile out of matches that had taken a downward turn. And he didn't act alone. The Chilean head coach and team doctor were also in on this scheme.
1:10:57 Georgia Hardstark? Dude.
1:10:58 Karen Kilgariff? So in an interview later, Roberto tells a newspaper, quote, "I cut myself with a razor and the farce was discovered. It was a cut to my dignity and this all runs under the headline, 'I'm guilty.'"
1:11:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oof.
1:11:11 Karen Kilgariff? So he genuinely seems remorseful, which might explain why in 2001 FIFA rescends that lifetime ban.
1:11:18 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:11:19 Karen Kilgariff? And Roberto Rojas goes on to coach goalies in, of all places, Brazil.
1:11:24 Georgia Hardstark? Oh shit.
1:11:26 Karen Kilgariff? Shepherding a new generation of soccer players. And later, he becomes a well-known sports pundit in South America. Despite everything, he's in his 60s now. He is a beloved sports legend in Chile. He's a hero to many fans in Brazil, too. He lives there, he coaches there. His wife, Viviane, has told CNN, quote, "Here in Brazil, Roberto has always been loved. The most important thing for Brazilians is that he has, in his interviews, come across as a human being with a very distinct and good character. And he has admitted his guilt and been forgiven."
1:12:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, take responsibility for your bullshit instead of doubling down with a bunch of fucking
1:12:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:12:07 Georgia Hardstark? lies.
1:12:07 Karen Kilgariff? And being like, hey, how about we talk about the insane pressure that sports puts on the players and the staff to win no matter what at all costs?
1:12:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:12:19 Karen Kilgariff? And that's the story of the Condor, Roberto Rojas.
1:12:23 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:12:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:12:26 Georgia Hardstark? He fucking cut himself like a wrestler, like a professional wrestler.
1:12:30 Karen Kilgariff? Just exactly like how you described it.
1:12:31 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:12:33 Georgia Hardstark? I wonder how many like, how many times that's actually happened and not gotten found out.
1:12:37 Karen Kilgariff? Well, what's funny is too, and I think it's also the sweet part of the World Cup having such a profound, beautiful effect on this country.
1:12:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:12:45 Karen Kilgariff? Is we can celebrate and enjoy sports without being emotionally invested.
1:12:50 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:12:51 Karen Kilgariff? Therefore, without beating the shit out of our, the opposing team's fans in the parking lot or something like that.
1:12:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:12:58 Karen Kilgariff? And instead, enjoy like, the show of the show. And suddenly, you know, and maybe it's too general, but I think it's true for American male culture, you get to be there and enjoy the fun and the partying and the drinking and the hoo-ha without turning a bus over and lighting it on fire.
1:13:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:13:15 Karen Kilgariff? Because you just are like, that's enabling the people in Lawrence, Kansas to fully support the Albanian team, like, they even know what's going on. They're just like, oh no, we're Albanians now because you're here practicing in our town.
1:13:28 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:13:29 Karen Kilgariff? It's really lovely, but I mean, this, the other side of sports is that thing where you're just, it's win no matter what, no matter the cause, no matter the cost.
1:13:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, for sure. And putting your own pride in whether that team wins or not.
1:13:42 Karen Kilgariff? How about a little pride and honesty, for fuck's sake? Why is that, why is that so hard?
1:13:47 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, well, great job. That was a wild one. I had never heard that before.
1:13:52 Karen Kilgariff? Crazy, right?
1:13:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Hey, have you ever done anything like that? Let us know.
1:13:56 Karen Kilgariff? Hey, have you ever pulled a razor blade out of your goalie glove to make other people feel bad?
1:14:01 Georgia Hardstark? Write it in at myfavoritemail for hometown episodes.
1:14:05 Karen Kilgariff? Karen in Georgia, my name's Stone Cold Steve Austin, and I've pulled a number like this a time or two.
1:14:10 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, great job.
1:14:12 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
1:14:12 Georgia Hardstark? Crazy couple stories.
1:14:13 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
1:14:14 Georgia Hardstark? Epic one, I think.
1:14:15 Karen Kilgariff? This show has a summertime vibe to it of like, okay, you're gonna tell me that story, now I'm gonna tell you something. It truly has nothing to do with anything.
1:14:22 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. In the meantime, I'll take a fucking martini that skates.
1:14:36 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so this batch of Honking Hoorays is brought to you by Hyundai.
1:14:40 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you Hyundai. Are you ready to do this?
1:14:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, you go first.
1:14:42 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. The title is "Hooray." And it says, "My hooray is my 63-year-old mother. She was raised in the mountains of Maine with a high school education. She built a career in a male-dominated field, raised me after my dad passed away when I was six. Made sure to take care of my mental health during that time. Endured a decades-long marriage."
1:15:02 Karen Kilgariff? That's how it was written.
1:15:03 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
1:15:03 Karen Kilgariff? "Endured a decades-long marriage and has just been promoted to director, reporting directly to the C-suite of a nationwide company. She sacrificed so much for everyone around her and somehow still managed to raise a take-no-shit daughter. I'm in awe of her grit, her persistence, and this well-earned accomplishment. Hooray for the glass-ceiling-breaking mama's proud murderino daughter."
1:15:25 Georgia Hardstark? Hell yeah.
1:15:26 Karen Kilgariff? That's a "hooray" to start off with.
1:15:27 Georgia Hardstark? That's beautiful.
1:15:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:15:29 Georgia Hardstark? This is from McNeil Colleen on Instagram. It says, "My hooray is that at age 43, I started tap dancing."
1:15:39 Karen Kilgariff? Nice.
1:15:39 Georgia Hardstark? "I had never danced a day before in my life."
1:15:43 Karen Kilgariff? Signed, Gregory Hines.
1:15:46 Karen Kilgariff? That's the oldest joke I could possibly have made. That was a really old one.
1:15:49 Georgia Hardstark? I get it. I got you.
1:15:50 Karen Kilgariff? Congratulations, tap dancer, whoever you are. This one is from Slither Anne from Instagram. It says, "I stepped into the Atlantic Ocean for the first time at age 40. It was amazing."
1:16:00 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:16:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:16:02 Georgia Hardstark? Let's go do that right now.
1:16:03 Karen Kilgariff? The Atlantic's a little farther away.
1:16:06 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. Okay, this one, this one's really funny. This is from another Colleen. It says, "My hooray is that at 37, I picked up rock tumbling as a hobby."
1:16:16 Karen Kilgariff? Nice.
1:16:18 Georgia Hardstark? "I bought my seven-year-old a rock tumbling kit for his birthday last summer. He lost interest in the first few days, but I've been hooked ever since. My husband often gently asks me what I plan to do with all these rocks, and I tell him to mind his own business."
1:16:30 Karen Kilgariff? Nice.
1:16:31 Georgia Hardstark? "I now have two rock tumblers going at all times. Lots of polished rocks and many more waiting to get their turn. Each group of rocks takes between five to eight weeks to complete." And here are some photos of the rocks.
1:16:43 Karen Kilgariff? Oh my god, I think that's a highly valuable rock right there.
1:16:46 Georgia Hardstark? Amethyst?
1:16:47 Karen Kilgariff? Two rock tumblers going? I mean.
1:16:50 Georgia Hardstark? Serious business.
1:16:51 Karen Kilgariff? Answer the question. Your husband asked a very valid question. What are you?
1:16:55 Georgia Hardstark? What are you going to do?
1:16:55 Karen Kilgariff? What are you gonna do with all those rocks? This one is from Kendall S. from the fan cult. And Kendall's just saying, "I took my 10-year-old twins to their first concert, Florence and the Machine."
1:17:06 Georgia Hardstark? Hell, yes. Wow.
1:17:07 Karen Kilgariff? That's a huge one for... What was your first concert?
1:17:10 Georgia Hardstark? My first real concert was Shane's Addiction at the Hollywood Bowl.
1:17:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, okay.
1:17:13 Georgia Hardstark? What about yours?
1:17:14 Karen Kilgariff? My first real concert was Chicago at the, uh-huh, at the Cow Palace, I believe.
1:17:20 Georgia Hardstark? Were you a 60-year-old businessman?
1:17:21 Karen Kilgariff? I was just like a freshman, and then someone's parents got tickets. And I was like, sure.
1:17:26 Georgia Hardstark? Why not?
1:17:26 Karen Kilgariff? Well, let's go see a 10-man band.
1:17:29 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you again to Hyundai for letting us do these honking hurrahs. We love them.
1:17:32 Karen Kilgariff? We love them. We love to celebrate you. Stay sexy.
1:17:35 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
1:17:36 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:17:37 Georgia Hardstark? Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:17:46 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right production.
1:17:48 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.
1:17:52 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Lasevedo.
1:17:54 Georgia Hardstark? This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.
1:17:56 Karen Kilgariff? Our researchers are Mira McGlashan and Ally Elkin.
1:17:59 Georgia Hardstark? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:18:02 Karen Kilgariff? And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:18:04 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:18:09 Karen Kilgariff? And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.
1:18:12 Georgia Hardstark? And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the "Remind Me" buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.
1:18:17 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:18:22 Karen Kilgariff? Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.
1:18:25 Georgia Hardstark? Virgin Voyages' second true crime voyage sets sail March 20, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.
1:18:34 Karen Kilgariff? As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet-and-greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.
1:18:50 Georgia Hardstark? All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.
1:18:53 Karen Kilgariff? Head over to virginvoyages.com/troocrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.
1:18:58 Speaker 05 Halloween's almost here and I've got plans. My first stop is Total Wine & More for cold beer, ready to drink cocktails and a bottle of wine to share, and I know I'm getting the lowest prices. Get the fun started at Total Wine & More. Spirits are not sold in Virginia and North Carolina. Drink responsibly. B21.
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