Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 498 - Tugboat Cat About this episode On today’s episode, Karen covers forensic sculptor Frank Bender, co-founder of the Vidocq Society.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Karen Kilgariff? This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 01 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
0:59 Georgia Hardstark? Hello and welcome. To my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark. That's Karen Kilgariff. And we're gonna do some podcasting at you. I hope you're ready for podcasting. In your rear. Your rear. We're gonna show you how it's done. Get ready and write this down. Get ready with me to podcast. To podcast. It's a get ready with me where they just put huge headphones on? Yeah, and that's it. And then just talk about themselves for two hours? Do you know you have a new, I don't want to call it like a new nervous habit or a new, what's the word, not twitch. Just say what it is. You keep going like this. Oh, no. You keep grabbing your, you keep putting your hand to the back of your face
1:41 Georgia Hardstark? and grabbing your own nose and your pointer finger and middle finger. Just a little, you've been doing it for a while. I mean. I don't know what it is. How many, did I do it like a bunch on the last record? No, but I've noticed you doing it a few times every time I see you. I just wanted to impress you. But what is it?
1:59 Karen Kilgariff? I have no fucking clue.
2:00 Georgia Hardstark? It's like an I got, I got your nose, but to yourself.
2:03 Karen Kilgariff? It's how I comfort myself.
2:04 Georgia Hardstark? Why are you taking your nose? Why are you taking your nose?
2:06 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, that's a crazy thing to hear about yourself.
2:09 Georgia Hardstark? I know, probably, right?
2:10 Karen Kilgariff? Also, it's funny because being, doing this podcast on video, nightmare.
2:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
2:15 Karen Kilgariff? There was one video where they were, I can't remember what the, the whole video is about something else, but like, they were using this thing that was an outtake, basically, where I did this super weird like, upper body stretch before we started.
2:29 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
2:30 Karen Kilgariff? And it was like, funny, but at the same time, when I watched it, I was like, it really sucks to have to edit yourself.
2:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
2:37 Karen Kilgariff? To have to give notes on, that's mine.
2:40 Georgia Hardstark? It's a whole different thing. You shouldn't be watching. What are you doing?
2:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
2:43 Georgia Hardstark? You shouldn't get yourself banned.
2:44 Karen Kilgariff? We're getting there, but that's really, I'll make up a new one.
2:47 Georgia Hardstark? No, I like it. I just like.
2:51 Karen Kilgariff? I wonder if it's like a thinking thing.
2:54 Georgia Hardstark? It's definitely like a, give me a moment thing.
2:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
2:57 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
2:58 Karen Kilgariff? Two seconds, please.
2:59 Georgia Hardstark? But it's somehow like squeezing your, the two of your own nose. Should I not have told you that?
3:04 Karen Kilgariff? I mean.
3:04 Georgia Hardstark? I just, I can't stop noticing it now.
3:06 Karen Kilgariff? I would like to stop doing it, for sure. So, that's fine with me. This is the thing. When we film this, when we do our show, our podcast, we also are doing video, but often I'm working right up until I walk down to do it. So, I have a real fast makeup problem. I also have a, this foundation is too light for me, oh, well, I'll use it anyway problem. So, I think I'm also thinking that like, almost I'm giving myself last second contour, or some kind of.
3:35 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Or you're remembering your face is like.
3:38 Karen Kilgariff? It goes to here.
3:41 Karen Kilgariff? Stops here.
3:42 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know, like, once I noticed it, I couldn't stop noticing. I'm like, I should tell her, but.
3:47 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, please tell me.
3:49 Georgia Hardstark? But what for?
3:50 Karen Kilgariff? It's the same as when you, to what end? You do that thing where you go.
3:53 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
3:54 Karen Kilgariff? Cause my hair always sticks out.
3:55 Georgia Hardstark? Or I do this, and you go, me? No, my, literally me.
3:59 Karen Kilgariff? Cause it always sticks out.
4:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, of course, always.
4:01 Karen Kilgariff? This goddamn job.
4:03 Georgia Hardstark? Everything about it. No, this is the fucking best.
4:05 Karen Kilgariff? This we love it. Gratitude, gratitude, gratitude.
4:08 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you for coming to our live shows. We're having so much fun.
4:12 Karen Kilgariff? We are so happy to see you again.
4:14 Georgia Hardstark? We have rad merch, too.
4:17 Karen Kilgariff? The merch at the live shows is, people are talking about it.
4:21 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, it's gorgeous.
4:23 Karen Kilgariff? It's so cool.
4:24 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
4:24 Karen Kilgariff? It's Daphna Sabine.
4:25 Georgia Hardstark? She's incredible artist and murderino, and she's been designing our tour posters. And every city has its own version of the tour poster based on things from that city or state. So like flowers and animals and like, I mean, it's just so thoughtful and beautiful.
4:41 Karen Kilgariff? It's so great. And also, it's like, not the most typical. So it's like, just because it's Pasadena doesn't mean it's like the golden bear, whatever. But it's, it's just really smart and really cool. And I think people were super excited in Denver to see, like, how original it is.
4:57 Georgia Hardstark? It's so good.
4:58 Karen Kilgariff? It's great.
4:58 Georgia Hardstark? Speaking of our tour.
5:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:01 Georgia Hardstark? We still have some limited tickets in certain cities.
5:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:03 Georgia Hardstark? Including some gold VIP packages, which come with an exclusive merch bundle and one of those tour posters signed by us.
5:11 Karen Kilgariff? That's us.
5:11 Georgia Hardstark? That's us. So grab your tickets now at myfavoritemurder.com/live.
5:17 Karen Kilgariff? And we're posting all the tour fun, from backstage pics to audience shout outs. So please remember to follow My Favorite Murder on Instagram and of course, over on TikTok, so you don't miss any of it.
5:27 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. And hashtag your own photos with MFM Live 2025.
5:31 Karen Kilgariff? Also, you can head over to the Exactly Right YouTube channel, so you can watch full episodes and clips, not only from the show, My Favorite Murder, but also from Ghosted by Rouse Hernandez, I Said No Gifts, Buried Bones, and more.
5:44 Georgia Hardstark? So go to youtube.com/exactlyrightmedia and please subscribe.
5:48 Karen Kilgariff? Please.
5:49 Georgia Hardstark? We appreciate it.
5:49 Karen Kilgariff? Also, just in time for spooky season.
5:52 Georgia Hardstark? It's already spooky season?
5:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:53 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
5:53 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry. What's your costume gonna be this year?
5:56 Georgia Hardstark? I bought a vintage shirt that is the color pattern of candy corn. So, out of nowhere.
6:01 Karen Kilgariff? Done and done.
6:02 Georgia Hardstark? I fucking found it and it's gorgeous.
6:04 Karen Kilgariff? I'm really jealous of that shirt.
6:05 Georgia Hardstark? I'll wear it on the show and then we can switch.
6:08 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, I'll wear it the day that I have a skeleton dress.
6:11 Georgia Hardstark? Great.
6:12 Karen Kilgariff? We'll do that.
6:12 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
6:13 Karen Kilgariff? So just in time for spooky season, make your plans too. We got new and restocked Halloween merch in the Exactly Right store.
6:19 Georgia Hardstark? There's a bunch of brand new Mothman stuff, which we, of course, love from MFM Animated. There's a Mothman Unisex t-shirt, the Return of the Mothman zip front hoodie, the Mothman koozie.
6:31 Karen Kilgariff? There's this one.
6:32 Georgia Hardstark? And then skeleton joggers and the skeleton pin that moves. The skeleton pin moves and you have the joggers.
6:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And of course, all of those designs are by the great Nick Terry. I mean, We love this man. You've seen the MFM animateds on YouTube. If you haven't, please go watch them. They're pretty great.
6:47 Georgia Hardstark? They're so incredible.
6:48 Karen Kilgariff? They're a lot like this, but they move. They're articulated. I have to admit something.
6:54 Georgia Hardstark? What?
6:54 Karen Kilgariff? Georgia proudly wears our merch everywhere she goes. Not me, though. I'm a very Kurt Cobain yelling at me all the time. You know, be cool.
7:02 Georgia Hardstark? It's not cool if you wear your own merch.
7:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, exactly. But I was in Nicole's office one day and she had these skeleton sweatpants sitting there. And I was like, I need those skeleton sweatpants. And she gave them to me. I have worn them in public so many times because they're so cozy that I don't care that I look like a cornball.
7:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, no.
7:21 Karen Kilgariff? Or whatever way I'm judging myself.
7:22 Georgia Hardstark? I love it. It's good. I think it's good to support your school and your podcast.
7:28 Karen Kilgariff? Also, but just know that when Nicole picks the blanks for our merch,
7:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
7:32 Karen Kilgariff? she is going for the best of the best.
7:34 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. Go to exactlyrightstore.com to grab your stuff.
7:39 Karen Kilgariff? Today.
7:40 Georgia Hardstark? Today.
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8:24 Karen Kilgariff? use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.
8:31 Georgia Hardstark? All right, you're solo?
8:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
8:33 Georgia Hardstark? I can sit back.
8:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, just relax.
8:36 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. God damn it.
8:38 Karen Kilgariff? I'm going to tell you a story about a person who is extremely good at one specific thing, and because of that, he became an unlikely partner to investigators in not only this country, but beyond. His work not only helps catch fugitives, but it also gives many John and Jane Does their name back. He isn't a cop or a forensic scientist. He's a fine artist whose work predates the modern use of genetic genealogy. We have mentioned him on the show back in episode 29, which was spelled episode 20-N-E-I-N.
9:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
9:16 Karen Kilgariff? This is the story of forensic sculptor Frank Bender.
9:19 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God. Like, I'm having flashbacks to my childhood and watching Unsolved Mysteries, and I might recognize the busts in the sculpture that was made of this missing person or this skeleton, and maybe I could solve the case.
9:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
9:33 Georgia Hardstark? Is that what we're talking about?
9:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. You were being called, as a seven-year-old, to please help the authorities.
9:39 Georgia Hardstark? Incredible.
9:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
9:40 Georgia Hardstark? And then, yeah, I love these.
9:41 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, great. So, the main sources used in this story today are 2004 Esquire article by Brendan Vaughn entitled "Man of the Month: Frank Bender," and a 1995 New York Times article by Karen DeMasters entitled "Solving Crimes: Sculptor Recreates Faces of Tragedy." And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So, we'll start with that New York Times article. They describe Frank Bender as, quote, "an elfin man with a, quote, bald head, fierce gaze, and Van Dyke," which is, Van Dykes are, for the children, the formal name of a little mustache-beard combo that you've seen on many, many vape salesmen. Sometimes they call it a goatee.
10:24 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
10:25 Karen Kilgariff? Incorrect.
10:26 Georgia Hardstark? Because it mustache is there, too?
10:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, exactly. So, all that's to say that Frank Bender doesn't look like someone you'd find hanging around with the cops. More like one of those guys that would be posted up along the Seine with an easel, you know, wearing a little black beret. And that's why it's so strange that in the late 70s, when he's 35 years old, he has this life-changing moment at the Philadelphia morgue. So he's from Philly. He's born into a working class family and he's been making art since he was very young. But when he gets exposed to the art world, he's kind of put off by it. So when he graduates high school, he actually turns down a scholarship to go to the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts. Jesus. And instead he joins the Navy. Wow. Yeah.
11:10 Karen Kilgariff? But then when he gets out, he comes back home to Philadelphia and he actually becomes a professional photographer. But he also draws and he sculpts. And he's very devoted to the practice, so much so that when he wants to work on his figure drawing or brush up on his anatomy drawing skills, he goes and visits the morgue. Wow. Yeah. So that's where he is on this fateful day in the late seventies, when the medical examiner brings him in and shows him the body that they have, that he can use to practice and draw on. This is a, yeah, very intense. It's very macabre. Yeah. But even if you think about it, like, there are a few places you can actually go to really see human bodies like that.
11:53 Karen Kilgariff? So the medical examiner brings him in and shows him the body they have, which is badly decomposed. It's a woman who'd been shot in the head. She's completely unrecognizable, so she has not been identified. And that means the investigators kind of have no way to find out who her murderer is because they have no idea who she is. Nowhere to start. When Frank Bender sees her body, he actually says out loud in the moment, quote, "I know what she looks like." So when Frank revisits this moment in interviews years later, he makes it sound like he was kind of like in a trance or like he was overcome by a powerful revelation. And he says that those words, "I know what she looks like," just sort of slipped out of his mouth. Amazing. Yeah.
12:38 Karen Kilgariff? So when the ME asks if he knows anything about forensics, Frank responds, "I don't even know what that word means." But the ME is intrigued by the confidence that he's shown about thinking he knows what she looks like. So he tells Frank to go home and try to create an image of what he thinks this Jane Doe could have looked like in real life. So Frank actually ends up going above and beyond. He ends up sculpting an incredibly like life bust out of fiberglass. And then he paints the bust by hand, adding eyes, lips, skin tone, all the details he's seeing in his mind.
13:16 Karen Kilgariff? And he says, quote, "I saw every feature of her face and how the form of one part of her face flowed into all the other forms."
13:24 Georgia Hardstark? If you've been studying art your whole life, then you paint people's faces. You know the structure so well.
13:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, and he's also getting a sense of things, you know, he will later go on to like take in, because he doesn't always have a body. So it's very kind of intuitive with him. But he's like, he locks in and kind of like tries to interpret what he can as an artist. It's great. So in this situation, it only takes him eight hours to finish this bust. And when he's done, he's looking at the face of a woman who's around 60 years old with a prominent nose and a left chin. It's so lifelike that authorities decide to photograph this bust and feature it in local newspapers. And incredibly, it leads to this Jane Doe's identification.
14:10 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit.
14:11 Karen Kilgariff? It turns out to be 62 year old Phoenix native Anna Duval, who's gone missing after traveling to Philly to meet a friend about a real estate investment opportunity there. What's super weird is I went to high school with a girl named Anna Duval, and she and her daughter listened to this podcast. So I bet it was super creepy for them to hear that.
14:31 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
14:32 Karen Kilgariff? Hi, guys.
14:33 Georgia Hardstark? That's so weird.
14:34 Karen Kilgariff? You're in this story with us.
14:35 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my gosh.
14:36 Karen Kilgariff? That friend, quote unquote, is a man named John Martini. And he'd already scammed Anna out of about $25,000 and lured her to Philadelphia under the pretense of a sham real estate deal. And when she gets to Philadelphia, he shoots her.
14:52 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus.
14:52 Karen Kilgariff? Years later, he is charged with Anna's murder. But by that time, he's already incarcerated for committing two other unrelated homicides. So he is
15:02 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
15:03 Karen Kilgariff? basically kind of a serial killer, but longer term.
15:07 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
15:07 Karen Kilgariff? More importantly, Frank Bender's sculpture gives Anna Duvall her name back. So this experience is incredibly meaningful for Frank. As opposed to the superficiality and the elitism of the art scene, this work makes him feel like his art actually made a positive impact in someone's life. And he'll later say, quote, "When I stumbled upon this forensic venture, I said, 'That's my turf. That's where I belong. This isn't going to hang on gallery walls. I feel right about this. This is where I'm going to put my energy. And I can give back to the people instead of to art collectors." Amazing. It's pretty cool. Love it. Of course, when other investigators find out about the success of this bust,
15:49 Karen Kilgariff? they enlist Frank's help on their cases. He continues creating busts for the John and Jane Does in the city and around the country. And he becomes particularly skilled at creating lifelike sculptures despite having little to work from. So in the best-case scenario, Frank would be working from a skull that he could actually handle directly as he makes these busts. So when that's the case, he basically works the clay over the skull to create a mold. And then he removes the skull and he pours plaster into that clay and then he lets that set. And then he sands and shapes and paints the bust while referring back to the skull for any hints of the person's unique facial features. Wow.
16:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. He'll later tell People Magazine, quote, "I just see the image in my head. Then I let my fingers do the sculpting." Hmm. But usually Frank has nothing more than a picture of the unidentified person's remains. Or sometimes only a report from an anthropologist suggesting what their sex, age, and race could be. Sometimes he has much, much less, like, a few strands of hair. Oh, fuck. So what Frank does is equal parts creativity and science, and he's constantly referencing medical information and anatomy texts to make sure that his busts are as realistic as possible. But of course, he's also using his technical art skills, his intuition, and an unwavering dedication to reanimating the faces of the unidentified.
17:19 Karen Kilgariff? I just love that idea of like, he found his lane. Yeah. Like, in this weird way. It's like, I hate the art world, but I still want to do art, and here's a way that like... And I see it. Yeah. Which is a gift. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So, this is how Frank eventually gets the nickname, quote, "The recomposer of the decomposed." Ooh. So, he's clearly a gifted artist, and the more busts he creates, the more apparent his investigative and profiling skills become. He has an amazing talent for picking up tiny bits of information about a person, like a piece of evidence found near a crime scene, or the attributes of their bones, and then using that to inform the creations that he makes. And to the investigators
18:00 Karen Kilgariff? that he works with, it feels almost supernatural. Reporter Brendan Vaughn writes in his Esquire piece on Frank that, quote, "When you ask people in law enforcement to explain how Frank Bender does what he does, they speak of his intense interest in human nature. They mention his compassion for the victims, they point to his talent as a fine artist, his uncanny ability to read bones for clues, but really, the essence of what they're saying is this: Frank Bender has a sixth sense." Yeah. Here's one example of that sixth sense in practice. In 1980, Frank is asked to create a bust for an unidentified victim in a town called Sladington, Pennsylvania. So, the
18:43 Karen Kilgariff? remains were found by a hunter, and they're determined to have been deteriorating outside for 19 months. So, Frank has very little to go off of, but he begins by analyzing the victim's skull, and he builds a profile. And this analysis leads him to think that this person had an overbite and wavy brown hair. And then, he focuses on a piece of evidence that was found near the body, a single glasses lens. Frank finds a pair of brown frames that fit this specific lens to place on his bust when it's completed. Wow. And when an image of this bust is circulated in newspapers, a man calls the police and identifies the woman as his 23-year-old daughter, Linda Keys. Holy shit. She's been missing for more than a year. Oh, my god.
19:28 Karen Kilgariff? Though Linda's cause of death is never determined, she's no longer a Jane Doe. And of course, her family has a little bit of relief. Right. Just a few years later, in 1987, a group of kids discover the body of a young woman behind a Philadelphia high school. Oh, God. So soon Frank is working to identify her. And this is another case where the body is very decomposed. So he uses the evidence that's available to conjure up her face. He'll later tell the Toronto Star that, quote, "She was wearing a ship and shore blouse, a nicely pleated blouse, not a blouse someone her age would wear out in that neighborhood. To me, it told me she was looking for a way out. She was looking for a better life. So I had her looking up for hope."
20:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my God. I mean, he's interpreting anything he can. Yeah. But also like putting it together with kind of logical steps. Right. So it's not like... Fancyful. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, how do people really work? Totally. So a year later, in 1988, a woman sees this bust and recognizes her 18-year-old niece, Rosella Atkinson, who'd been missing for more than a year. After last being seen at a local bar, she left behind a devastated family and her beloved infant daughter. Rosella's aunt will say that one of the most spot-on features of Frank's bust is how Rosella is holding her head up in that hopeful way, which is exactly how she held herself in real life. Wow. That's crazy. I know. From a shirt.
20:58 Karen Kilgariff? But it tracks. It's just like, it is logic-based. Totally. Several years after Rosella is ID'd, her killer, a man named Brian Hall, finally comes forward and confesses. He claims that back in 1987, they'd left that bar together, hooked up. And then he realizes that he's missing money. He accuses her of stealing it from him. When she tells him, "You're wrong, I did not steal it," he goes into a fit of rage and strangles her to death and then hides her body. Jesus. So now, because of Frank's work, Rosella's murderer will face justice. And of course, the family's no longer wondering what happened to their daughter and their mother. Right. But Frank's most famous bust is not a Jane or a John Doe case.
21:42 Karen Kilgariff? Instead, it's a very famous fugitive case that I covered on episode 29. So I'll just recap it really quick. And also, we've done a rewind recently about this. Right. So now we're doing kind of inception-level podcasting, where we're folding in a podcast upon a podcast. So in 1989, Frank is asked to recreate a bust of the famous family annihilator and fugitive John List. John List had been on the run for 18 years after murdering his entire family in New Jersey. I think that might be, in reflection now, my favorite murder.
22:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:18 Karen Kilgariff? Because it's, it has everything.
22:20 Georgia Hardstark? It has everything.
22:21 Karen Kilgariff? There's the ironic ending of the Tiffany
22:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:24 Karen Kilgariff? lamp, or the Tiffany shade, or whatever that was.
22:27 Georgia Hardstark? Skylight.
22:28 Karen Kilgariff? The skylight that costs, that was worth so much money, that would have gotten him out of debt. All the things.
22:34 Georgia Hardstark? And just like going and living a normal life, like you hadn't done anything when you were like, just an evil person.
22:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you killed three of your children, and your mother, and your wife.
22:44 Georgia Hardstark? And then getting fucking caught this way.
22:46 Karen Kilgariff? This way, by this man. It's so good. Okay. So he's been on the run for 18 years after murdering his entire family in New Jersey, and the only thing Frank has to work on when the authorities come to him is decades-old photographs and some bits of information about John's life and his personality that have been collected over the years.
23:06 Georgia Hardstark? Because he cut himself out of all the photos at home, right?
23:09 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
23:10 Georgia Hardstark? Like, smartly, purposely.
23:13 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
23:14 Georgia Hardstark? He just erased any trace of what he would look like.
23:16 Karen Kilgariff? Right. So they probably had to go scrape up some pictures, but they're all like, almost 20 years old.
23:21 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
23:22 Karen Kilgariff? So Frank gets to work, relying on his vivid imagination, to guesstimate how John List could have aged over the last 20 years. He looks at the old photos and adds heavy jowls, removes some hair, then dresses his bust in a suit and tie, because as Frank puts it, quote, "The guy wore a suit and tie when he mowed the lawn."
23:42 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, yeah.
23:43 Karen Kilgariff? Frank even throws on a pair of thick, black-rimmed glasses because, quote, "He would want to look more astute, more in control than he really was."
23:51 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing.
23:52 Karen Kilgariff? Frank comes to this conclusion while consulting with his friend, criminal psychologist Dr. Richard D. Walter. The two spend several days walking around Philadelphia, talking about what John List might be like today.
24:04 Georgia Hardstark? Just profiling. So interesting.
24:07 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So in May of 1989, Frank completes this bust of John List, and it's featured in an episode of America's Most Wanted. And as fate would have it, a woman in Richmond, Virginia, is watching that night, and she thinks that it looks a lot like her neighbor, Robert Clark. Robert is an accountant who wears very thick rimmed glasses.
24:27 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
24:28 Karen Kilgariff? So she calls the police. A couple of days later, they visit the Clark home. And when they fingerprint him, Robert Clark is quickly exposed as wanted murderer John List. He's arrested. He's given five life sentences. And that's largely thanks to Frank Bender's uncanny bust.
24:47 Georgia Hardstark? So incredible.
24:48 Karen Kilgariff? Down to the fucking glasses.
24:50 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. But he didn't even need, that like, he put on him for effect.
24:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
24:55 Georgia Hardstark? And it was real and true because of, yeah.
24:57 Karen Kilgariff? Because also, it's kind of like, if you pay attention to people, you get to know people. There's like, certain amount of types of people in the world.
25:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:06 Karen Kilgariff? And it's like, this is the kind of guy who would want people to think he's like, intelligent and is successful.
25:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:12 Karen Kilgariff? Big glasses.
25:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah.
25:15 Karen Kilgariff? It's so good.
25:16 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
25:17 Karen Kilgariff? It turns out List had moved to Virginia and remarried. And it also turns out List was watching America's Most Wanted that same night. Remember that detail?
25:25 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. And his wife was sitting next to him, right?
25:27 Karen Kilgariff? And he's just like, watching.
25:29 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
25:30 Karen Kilgariff? John List passed away in prison in 2008. But he's not the only wanted man who Frank helped track down. Just to name a few, his busts are also credited with helping investigators track down New York mob boss, Alphonse Prosecco, and the leader of a violent outlaw motorcycle game, The Warlocks, named Bobby Noss.
25:50 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
25:51 Karen Kilgariff? So as passionate as Frank Bender is about forensic sculpture, it's not his livelihood. Frank only makes between like, $1,200 and $1,700 a bust. And he only makes two or three a year. And the restraint here seems to be his choice. As you might have guessed, Frank isn't exactly chasing wealth. That's not his style. He basically pays his bills doing odd jobs, like working on a tugboat and the occasional commission here.
26:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god, what a life.
26:19 Karen Kilgariff? He's, it's almost like he's one of those people that's like, I want to be out and about among the people.
26:23 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
26:23 Karen Kilgariff? And that's why he can do that job so well.
26:26 Georgia Hardstark? I want to work on a tugboat.
26:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you can.
26:28 Georgia Hardstark? You think there are cats? I bet there's cats on a tugboat.
26:30 Karen Kilgariff? They got to keep the rats away. Or would the, or would the, oh, no, they don't fish off a tugboat. Totally different job.
26:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:38 Karen Kilgariff? If you captained a tugboat, please write in and tell us how many cats are on it.
26:42 Georgia Hardstark? If you're a tugboat cat, please write in at myfavoritemurder@gmail and tell us what it's like.
26:47 Karen Kilgariff? Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. In his mind, it's his well-intended investigative work that feels meaningful. So in 1990, he coestablishes the VDOC Society, made up of detectives and profilers, forensic experts, pathologists, and other professionals who regularly meet with the hopes of cracking cold cases. I didn't realize that, but he basically is one of the founding members.
27:14 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing.
27:15 Karen Kilgariff? So good. We've also talked about this group on the show in episode, I think you talked about them, right?
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? Probably cold cases, probably.
27:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, probably. It was in episode 362, A Generous Number of Apples, your favorite, where, oh, yes, you talked about, sorry, it's right in the paragraph.
27:32 Karen Kilgariff? I love to like, read this and go over it and then just be like casually making conversation. It was when you covered Pennsylvania's Boy in the Box case.
27:42 Georgia Hardstark? Right, yes, that's right.
27:44 Karen Kilgariff? So for years, there was a boy and the VDOC Society finally gave him his name back just a few years ago in 2022. He was four-year-old Joseph August Zarelli, and this information is a huge break in the still unsolved case of his death.
28:01 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, that's one of those classic ones that the older it gets, the less likely it would seem that he would ever be identified. And the fact that he was is just incredible.
28:09 Karen Kilgariff? VDOC's on it.
28:10 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing.
28:11 Karen Kilgariff? So as accomplished as Frank Bender is as an artist and an unlikely investigator, it's also worth noting that he is a big character himself. His eccentricity is delightfully captured in the Esquire article that we sourced earlier, the one by Brendan Vaughn. And he writes, quote, "Frank Bender is a spooky dude, and not only because he knows what your skull looks like. It's spooky how his answering machine invites you to leave a message for the recomposer of the decomposed. And it's a little spooky how he returns your call from his clawfoot bathtub. It's spooky how he talks, and it's even spooky how he listens. But the spookiest thing about Frank Bender is also the thing that's made him a legend in the field of law enforcement. Frank Bender sees dead people."
28:55 Georgia Hardstark? That is so.
28:57 Karen Kilgariff? I have chills. It's amazing. It's incredible. I'm so glad you're telling this. Yeah. Also, like, what if this is untapped in other people at like- Totally. That we could be helping each other with these cold cases and these horrible mysteries. You would never know unless you like walked into a more- Yeah. New art. Right. Wow. So Frank doesn't seem to mind that these things get write-ups or attention, and that's a good thing because he gets a lot of attention for it. He's been covered by 60 Minutes, Forensic Files, 48 Hours, written up in GQ and the New York Times, and there's been an indie documentary made about him called Rec composer of the decomposed. He's been featured on TV shows as far away as Japan and Germany, presumably thanks to his willingness
29:42 Karen Kilgariff? to travel. He's no stranger to flying somewhere far away and collaborating with foreign investigators. Whoa. So the assignments, the media coverage, the successful identification seem to feed Frank's thirst for more investigative work. He continues accepting commissions and gets very attached to the cases that he works on, hoping that he can push them toward a resolution. Ted Bother, who wrote a book about Frank, even says, quote, "He's a fighter for justice. He's almost like a little Captain America or something." Wow, so sweet. In 2009, Frank is diagnosed with cancer at the same time as his wife, Jan, and she passes before him. Yeah. Way.
30:25 Karen Kilgariff? His doctor will later tell People magazine, quote, "I'm completely baffled as to how he has remained so functional through what must be an unimaginable degree of pain. That is courage." Wow. But Frank is quite matter of fact about his mesothelioma diagnosis. Just a year after learning about it in 2010, he tells a reporter, quote, "I'm used to being surrounded by death. I've done everything I ever wanted to do. I drove a race car. I've skydived. I've helped identify a lot of people, including fugitives on the most wanted list." Yeah, I bet like being around death that much makes you a little bit more aware of the important things in life. Yes. Not waste time. Yeah, your perspective is, you'd think our perspective would be so much better.
31:10 Karen Kilgariff? Ours? Been around a lot of it.
31:13 Georgia Hardstark? Just my anxiety. No, I think so. I think I pay attention more. I think, don't you?
31:18 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, over these last 10 years? I think there's a lot of lessons and a lot of kind of awareness.
31:24 Georgia Hardstark? And a lot of being grateful because the fact that it's not us. By the grace of God, thank fucking God, like, there's no reason.
31:32 Karen Kilgariff? And it's that kind of thing of like, we shouldn't live in fear.
31:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
31:35 Karen Kilgariff? The idea of living in fear robs you completely and there's no reason for it. And that-
31:41 Georgia Hardstark? Well, there's a lot of reason for it.
31:42 Karen Kilgariff? There's reason for it, but most people are good.
31:46 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
31:46 Karen Kilgariff? So by this point, Frank has been working with investigators for around 30 years. Since that very first bust he created to identify Anna DuVall. He's actually, since that time, it's estimated he's created about 40 more.
32:00 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
32:00 Karen Kilgariff? He's done it 40 times.
32:02 Georgia Hardstark? That's so many.
32:03 Karen Kilgariff? He doesn't keep an official tally, so that's why it's just an estimation. Over the years, Frank has proven he's well worth the, it's roughly $1,700 commission that he accepts for each sculpture he makes. It's hard to get an exact measure of how many cases he has helped solve, but ABC News has reported that he has an 85% success rate.
32:25 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit. I know you'd hate it, but I'd love to see a museum exhibit of all the busts.
32:31 Karen Kilgariff? I know. And the whole story kind of rolled out of like, because, you know, when you do art in whatever way you do it, it is about inspiration. It's just that his inspiration is very odd and specific and incredibly helpful and meaningful. The Philadelphia Inquirer, meanwhile, once reported that Frank's busts have led to breaks in almost every single one of the cases he's worked.
32:56 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
32:57 Karen Kilgariff? That's wild. The New York Times is a bit more modest, but still impressive, putting his success rate at somewhere around 40%.
33:05 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
33:06 Karen Kilgariff? On a cold case-
33:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that has nothing. Totally.
33:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. In 2011, Frank Bender succumbs to cancer at age 70. As the New York Times reported in his obituary, quote, "Interviewers are often asked, Mr. Bender, whether his life among the dead gave him nightmares. Yes, he replied, but not in the way you think. For years, he explained, his dreams had been peopled by the dead and by sinister men. The sinister men invariably attacked him, Mr. Bender said, and whenever they did, the unnamed dead rose up in his defense."
33:40 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
33:42 Karen Kilgariff? And that's the story of the late and legendary forensic sculptor Frank Bender.
33:47 Georgia Hardstark? Incredible job.
33:49 Karen Kilgariff? Frank Bender.
33:49 Georgia Hardstark? That is so good. I'm so glad you did that.
33:52 Karen Kilgariff? Isn't that a good one?
33:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:53 Karen Kilgariff? Because you assume, like, anytime when we did that story about John List, or anytime you think about it, you're just like, oh, that's a thing that the FBI developed.
34:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
34:02 Karen Kilgariff? And it's a very specific-
34:03 Georgia Hardstark? And then there was a guy, and they did this thing, and we're moving on.
34:04 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
34:05 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. It's a true artist.
34:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And like, not pursuing that on purpose, and it just kind of happening to you. It's almost like, you know, fate.
34:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's completely fate. He gets a vision of what this woman who's been shot in that head looks like.
34:20 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. Oh, my God, incredible job.
34:22 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
34:23 Georgia Hardstark? Perfect start to spooky season.
34:25 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
34:26 Georgia Hardstark? Shehlas.
34:26 Karen Kilgariff? We've done it.
34:27 Georgia Hardstark? We did it again.
34:28 Karen Kilgariff? Look, we just keep doing it.
34:29 Georgia Hardstark? And we won't stop until you take our microphones away.
34:33 Karen Kilgariff? We'll never stop. God damn it. In closing, we'd just like to say-
34:39 Georgia Hardstark? Stay sexy.
34:40 Karen Kilgariff? And don't get murdered.
34:42 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
34:43 Karen Kilgariff? Elvis, do you want a cookie?
34:52 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right production.
34:54 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.
34:57 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
34:59 Georgia Hardstark? This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.
35:01 Karen Kilgariff? Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.
35:04 Georgia Hardstark? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
35:07 Karen Kilgariff? Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
35:10 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
35:15 Karen Kilgariff? And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.
35:20 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
35:28 Karen Kilgariff? Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
35:33 Georgia Hardstark? With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.
35:39 Karen Kilgariff? You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.
35:41 Georgia Hardstark? Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.
35:47 Karen Kilgariff? Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye.
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