Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 496 - Swim Angry About this episode This week, Georgia covers the disappearance of Anne Marie Fahey and Karen tells the story of heroic Armenian athlete Shavarsh Karapetyan.
For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes.
Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g.
Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode.
Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder
Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder
TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder
Watch full episodes of My Favorite Murder on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@my_favorite_murder
Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] .
Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join.
Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/.
Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen.
See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcript 16,425 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Karen Kilgariff? This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 01 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
0:42 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.
0:55 Georgia Hardstark? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Carney Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
1:02 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.
1:04 Georgia Hardstark? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.
1:10 Speaker 04 Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.
1:56 Karen Kilgariff? Hello and welcome.
1:59 Georgia Hardstark? To my favorite murder.
2:00 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hardstark.
2:01 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilgariff.
2:02 Karen Kilgariff? And we are professional broadcasters. Have you heard?
2:07 Georgia Hardstark? Haven't you heard the word about us and broadcasting?
2:09 Karen Kilgariff? The good word? Do you like that I'm, and this is just for the YouTube audience, wearing a shirt that kind of looks like I might just be sitting here with no shirt on?
2:18 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but also you're insanely tan.
2:21 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, well, what happened? I'm just going outside. It's so hot outside. I'm just going out by the pool and spending, I mean, for me, it is.
2:29 Georgia Hardstark? Like, I don't remember having seen your arms in a long time, and they're tan as fuck, it turns out. So surprising.
2:35 Karen Kilgariff? You know what it is? I should have first revealed my pale arms to you and then had told you.
2:40 Georgia Hardstark? Had I known?
2:41 Karen Kilgariff? Listen, I'm gonna go out onto the patio this weekend and really do some stuff.
2:46 Georgia Hardstark? Be careful now. There's UV rays. I'd put fake tanner on. It's a little orange.
2:51 Karen Kilgariff? It looks fine.
2:52 Georgia Hardstark? I'm like trying a bunch of them out for like tour, before tour, like, so I don't look.
2:56 Karen Kilgariff? In stripes, to see which one is most natural.
2:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. What can you see from the stage? Like, do I look orange?
3:01 Karen Kilgariff? Actually, you know what's funny about that is I have a dress I tried on that is especially plunging neckline. And I'm like, I think I'm gonna have to use fake tanner on this part of my chest that's never been seen by the outside world.
3:13 Georgia Hardstark? The cleavage?
3:14 Karen Kilgariff? The lower cleave that has stayed indoors for 10 years.
3:19 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, you have your own backyard. You have to lay out topless. That's like one of the joys of having your own backyard.
3:24 Karen Kilgariff? But one of the joys of the house that's next to you being kind of above you is that you just, I would feel so self-conscious the whole time.
3:33 Georgia Hardstark? Tan those titties. Fuck 'em.
3:36 Karen Kilgariff? Fuck 'em all.
3:37 Georgia Hardstark? Say you're welcome, motherfuckers. You're welcome.
3:40 Karen Kilgariff? Just keep winking and finger gunsing up at them.
3:43 Georgia Hardstark? Why is she doing that?
3:45 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
3:46 Georgia Hardstark? Put your tits away.
3:49 Karen Kilgariff? Why is she doing that? Why does she keep winking at us?
3:52 Georgia Hardstark? Why does she have her tits out? Speaking of touring and tits, I guess, no, what do you have?
3:57 Karen Kilgariff? Come on, no, that was a perfect segue.
3:59 Georgia Hardstark? Was it because?
3:59 Karen Kilgariff? Get in there.
4:00 Georgia Hardstark? We're going on tour. I think the tan thing, we should say, I could say, we should say, we might say, when this goes up, we'll be in Denver for our first live show in eight, six years?
4:10 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, six or seven.
4:11 Georgia Hardstark? Six or seven years.
4:12 Karen Kilgariff? What's your number one fear about that first night on stage in Denver?
4:18 Georgia Hardstark? God, there's just so many. Actually.
4:21 Georgia Hardstark? There aren't any. Everything leading up to it, I'm terrified of. But once you get up there, I'm like, we got this. It's that thing of like, I'm not nervous about how it's gonna go. I think it's gonna go fucking great.
4:31 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, good.
4:32 Georgia Hardstark? And I'm just excited about that.
4:33 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, great.
4:34 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe like, I could trip on the way in, but even that would be like, kinda funny.
4:37 Karen Kilgariff? I think we've done that, though.
4:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and so hopefully someone gets it on video, and it's fine.
4:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, content, content, content.
4:42 Georgia Hardstark? Content, always. Everything is content.
4:45 Karen Kilgariff? I think I just had that feeling of like, you can't go back, or like, you can't recapture the old times, and I loved the old times so much.
4:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, you can.
4:54 Karen Kilgariff? You can?
4:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:55 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
4:56 Georgia Hardstark? Why not? It's the same now, just time is different.
4:59 Karen Kilgariff? True, true.
5:02 Georgia Hardstark? And that bitch is linear. Isn't linear, that's right.
5:05 Karen Kilgariff? Is not.
5:05 Georgia Hardstark? Is not linear.
5:06 Karen Kilgariff? Whose side are you on? Georgia's that time is not linear, or mine, based in, rooted in science.
5:12 Georgia Hardstark? Who, that Denver's gonna go well, or Denver's gonna go terribly?
5:15 Karen Kilgariff? But Denver, what if the best show we ever did was the bananas show we guested on in Denver?
5:19 Georgia Hardstark? That was really fun.
5:20 Karen Kilgariff? And truly, we peaked.
5:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
5:22 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, it was amazing.
5:24 Georgia Hardstark? You should come to our live shows. There's some cities that, and some nights, in certain cities that aren't selling out, that we're really disappointed in you, San Diego.
5:32 Karen Kilgariff? San Diego, why?
5:33 Georgia Hardstark? Get it together.
5:35 Karen Kilgariff? We were there for you.
5:36 Georgia Hardstark? We were so there for you. We have great stories from there, too, or at least, I do. What?
5:39 Karen Kilgariff? That diorama was given to us in San Diego. I can almost bet on it.
5:44 Georgia Hardstark? See, they used to love us.
5:45 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, they would make us stuff.
5:47 Georgia Hardstark? They made us stuff.
5:47 Karen Kilgariff? But here's the difference, six years in time, they've taken all of the money out of the normal person's hands, and stolen it away.
5:55 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
5:55 Karen Kilgariff? Who has an extra however much money this is, to go?
5:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. There's some exciting things going on at the live shows that we can't talk about, and won't talk about, refuse to talk about.
6:05 Karen Kilgariff? Salami wheel.
6:06 Georgia Hardstark? There's gonna be a salami. So you're gonna wanna go. I think it's gonna be a great tour, and I'm looking forward to it. And I'm looking forward to my tan.
6:13 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, we're now in a tan contest, Georgia. You have to beat this level. Good luck. There's a lot of freckles that might be visual.
6:19 Georgia Hardstark? That's a very Italian tan. I can achieve as a...
6:23 Georgia Hardstark? Eastern European woman.
6:25 Karen Kilgariff? But you know, if you've ever gone to Circus Vargas, then you're gonna love what's happening at our live shows. So get over here.
6:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, that's an old reference, but we need you, the over 40s who know that reference.
6:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, that's right. Gen Xers and above, Circus Vargas, Circus Vargas.
6:41 Georgia Hardstark? I fucking remember Circus.
6:42 Karen Kilgariff? Remember? And it would just be like a gigantic elephant in the commercial, like their foot came toward the camera.
6:48 Georgia Hardstark? You can't do that anymore.
6:49 Karen Kilgariff? You can't abuse the most beautiful, sensitive animal on the planet anymore.
6:54 Georgia Hardstark? No.
6:55 Karen Kilgariff? It's for the best.
6:55 Georgia Hardstark? It's probably for the best. And that's why we're going on tour. It's because you can abuse us.
7:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
7:01 Georgia Hardstark? As much as you want.
7:02 Karen Kilgariff? But leave the elephants alone. And we're not gonna say it again.
7:05 Georgia Hardstark? No, we won't. Go to myfavoritemurder.com/live. Get your tickets and see us there.
7:11 Karen Kilgariff? And find out.
7:12 Georgia Hardstark? Fuck around.
7:12 Karen Kilgariff? I think if you go to myfavoritemurder.com, it'll let you know where to go for those tickets, just in case.
7:17 Georgia Hardstark? But what if they don't know?
7:18 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, you're right. That's the exact address. But I'm just saying, I think that landing page is gonna direct you as well.
7:24 Georgia Hardstark? You don't have to remember it.
7:25 Karen Kilgariff? No. Just in case. Should we do a little business about our network?
7:30 Georgia Hardstark? Sure. Yeah.
7:31 Karen Kilgariff? Let's do it.
7:31 Georgia Hardstark? We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here's some info.
7:35 Karen Kilgariff? This is some very exciting breaking news because everyone loves a Nick Terry, MFM Animated, and he is back with his brand new episode called Crow Omen. It's based on Georgia's story about finding a crow in her pool from MFM episode 484, Cops of Trees. And please, all you day one listeners, keep your eyes out because there is a Vince cameo in this Nick Terry video.
7:58 Georgia Hardstark? I love when there's an MFM Animated Vince cameo because Nick Terry gets Vince's beard. And he's like a calico cat beard. And he gets it so spot on.
8:10 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
8:10 Georgia Hardstark? I love it.
8:11 Karen Kilgariff? He's such a good artist.
8:13 Georgia Hardstark? Such a good episode. You show up as a witch. It's just like, so fucking funny.
8:17 Karen Kilgariff? It has everything.
8:18 Georgia Hardstark? Everything.
8:19 Karen Kilgariff? I did have the idea the other day where I was like, what if Nick Terry made the, before the show starts, let's all go to the lobby video, but we make a new version of it.
8:29 Georgia Hardstark? I love that. I was gonna pitch a preview of like, video and shots and stuff like that of My Favorite Murder, but Nick Terry.
8:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
8:38 Georgia Hardstark? That's great.
8:38 Karen Kilgariff? Some sort of Nick Terry, like, oh my god, and then we get him to do a spoof of Nicole Kidman. Like, heartbreak feels good in a place like this.
8:48 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, like, we could just go to town and be like,
8:50 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
8:51 Georgia Hardstark? The big shows about to start.
8:53 Georgia Hardstark? What are we talking about? The way she was, like, jumping for joy when she divorced. Like, I don't know which Nicole Kidman you're referring to in this.
8:59 Georgia Hardstark? That'd be really good. That'd be good.
9:01 Georgia Hardstark? Nick, we should do it now.
9:02 Georgia Hardstark? Nick, why isn't the red phone? Pull up, pick up that hot dog phone. Nick Terry, calling Nick Terry.
9:08 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, while you're on YouTube, we've also got full episodes of Buried Bones, This Podcast Will Kill You, and My Favorite Murder. So go check that out at youtube.com/ExactlyRightMedia. Please and thank you.
9:18 Georgia Hardstark? And you go first this week.
9:19 Georgia Hardstark? All right, I'm gonna do it.
9:20 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
9:21 Georgia Hardstark? So, for my story, we are firmly in the 1990s.
9:25 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
9:25 Georgia Hardstark? Your favorite?
9:26 Georgia Hardstark? I mean,
9:27 Georgia Hardstark? or least favorite?
9:27 Georgia Hardstark? I did some good work back then, I feel.
9:30 Georgia Hardstark? That was the best of times.
9:32 Georgia Hardstark? And the very, very worst of times.
9:34 Georgia Hardstark? And 29-year-old Anne Marie Fahey was smart, vibrant, and she was going places. But behind the scenes, she was caught up in a secret relationship with a man who was respected and powerful, but underneath, he was hiding something dark. And his actions sent shockwaves through multiple interconnected small communities in none other than Delaware. Have we ever done a story from Delaware before?
9:58 Georgia Hardstark? No, I honestly thought you were gonna say DC.
10:00 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it's because it sounds like Chandra Levy.
10:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
10:03 Georgia Hardstark? It's not.
10:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
10:03 Georgia Hardstark? But it totally has whispers of that.
10:05 Georgia Hardstark? It's like a parallel
10:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
10:07 Georgia Hardstark? crime.
10:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, but no, Delaware.
10:10 Georgia Hardstark? Delaware.
10:10 Georgia Hardstark? DC's sister city.
10:12 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
10:13 Georgia Hardstark? That's true.
10:14 Georgia Hardstark? 2,000 people are furious that you just said that.
10:17 Georgia Hardstark? This isn't just a story of a missing woman. It's a story about power, corruption, and how far someone will go to protect their image. And we got so many emails through our email account from murderinos about this story because Delaware is, in this area specifically, in Wilmington, is such a tight-knit community. Someone said, like, it's the song for cheers. It's the same thing. Everyone knows your name. Everyone knows everything. Like, everyone's up in each other's business. It's a little big city kind of a thing.
10:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
10:43 Georgia Hardstark? So this is like everyone from Delaware's hometown. Like, what got them into true crime, essentially.
10:48 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
10:48 Georgia Hardstark? And it's really heartbreaking. The main source for this story is a book by
10:53 Georgia Hardstark? Anne Ruhl.
10:53 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
10:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yay.
10:55 Georgia Hardstark? Called And Never Let Her Go.
10:57 Georgia Hardstark? Do you sometimes get upset that we are psychically connected? Because I do. Well, I always knew exactly who you were about to say.
11:03 Georgia Hardstark? I was gonna say Stephen King?
11:03 Georgia Hardstark? There was no, I mean, there was no, and you're not some other author.
11:07 Georgia Hardstark? Who else is there? The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes, but also there is a 2001 mini-series about this case.
11:15 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
11:16 Georgia Hardstark? Called And Never Let Her Go, starring Mark Harmon as the main dude.
11:21 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
11:21 Georgia Hardstark? I bet you've seen it. Mark Harmon is like the buttoned up suit and tie older man.
11:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
11:26 Georgia Hardstark? Sexy older man guy.
11:27 Georgia Hardstark? He's the star of NCIS.
11:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
11:29 Georgia Hardstark? And Summer School.
11:30 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's okay. Oh, Summer School.
11:32 Georgia Hardstark? That's full range.
11:33 Georgia Hardstark? God, Summer School. And then the woman who plays Anne Marie Fahey is the actress Catherine Morris. And I was like, who is that? And then I look it up and she's like, she's in everything. The show Cold Case, did you ever watch that?
11:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, The Blonde.
11:46 Georgia Hardstark? She is the main character in that. And I see her face on a regular basis because every time I Google Cold Case to like, look at Cold Case news.
11:52 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
11:53 Georgia Hardstark? That fucking show comes up first. So I see her face every day.
11:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
11:57 Georgia Hardstark? And she's been in Murder She Wrote twice. She's been in Silk Stalking. She's been in Death of a Cheerleader, that one made-for-TV movie. So like, she's been in all the things.
12:05 Georgia Hardstark? She is the female Mark Harmon.
12:07 Georgia Hardstark? Turns out.
12:08 Georgia Hardstark? They just, now it's two powers meeting.
12:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
12:10 Georgia Hardstark? I have to say this too. The second you said the disappearance of Anne Marie Fahey.
12:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
12:15 Georgia Hardstark? The name Anne Marie Fahey is such a, that's my cousin. That's my Anne Marie. To me, being Irish sometimes feels like a small town.
12:23 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
12:23 Georgia Hardstark? Because everyone has the same lilt, the same thing. And you can kind of like, I can see her, feel her.
12:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
12:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
12:31 Georgia Hardstark? That's exactly right. So, we're gonna start on Saturday, June 29th, 1996. And we're in Wellington, Delaware. And a 30-year-old man named Mike Scanlon is supposed to have dinner with his 29-year-old girlfriend, Anne Marie Fahey, along with her brother, Robert, and his family. But Anne Marie never shows up to meet Mike to head over to dinner. Anne Marie works as the scheduling secretary for the governor of Delaware, a Democrat named Thomas Carver. She's worked for him since he was a congressman. And she is like, political and going places and really passionate about it. I read this one little detail and like almost made me cry. She keeps a collection of her ratty, childhood stuffed animals at her apartment, and they all have women's rights buttons pinned on their lapel, like pinned on them.
13:16 Georgia Hardstark? Because that's like the generations, you know what I mean? It's like, here's me as a kid, then here's me as like teenager or getting older.
13:22 Georgia Hardstark? Here's what I'm passionate about and-
13:24 Georgia Hardstark? I'm a woman in the world and I understand what I'm up against.
13:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and it just kind of like, it just, I see that person so well based on that one little detail.
13:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
13:32 Georgia Hardstark? You know? So Anne Marie, who most people call Annie, is one of six siblings in a close family, which is also very involved in the tight-knit Irish-American community in Wilmington. That's the thing there. I dated a guy from Wilmington, and I don't know anything about it, except they eat Scrapple a lot.
13:49 Georgia Hardstark? Scrapple?
13:50 Georgia Hardstark? Scrapple, yeah.
13:51 Georgia Hardstark? What's that, like a nice hash with your eggs?
13:53 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely not. It's like a Spam toast. I'm gonna get yelled at for this.
13:58 Georgia Hardstark? Spam toast? Like avocado toast, but Spam?
14:00 Georgia Hardstark? I think it's like Spam, like a chopped up meat, a lot of chopped up meat.
14:04 Georgia Hardstark? Let's like guess other even worse stuff so that people get angrier and angrier and write in more and more about what Scrapple is.
14:10 Georgia Hardstark? I think it's a cousin of Spam.
14:12 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
14:12 Georgia Hardstark? Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't even need to say that, I know you fucking will, and I appreciate it. Annie is the baby of the family. She has four brothers and one sister, so they're all a little older when she's born, so of course they're super protective over little Annie. Annie's mother Kathleen had died of lung cancer when she was only nine years old, and her father Robert is never the same after this. He struggles with alcoholism. He stops being able to take care of the family. Some of the older kids, who are now young adults by this point, step in to take care of Annie, and they do their best. While they're putting themselves through school, almost all of the older fae he kids work at a pub, a local pub, called O'Friel's, owned by their close family friends, so it is small town.
14:55 Georgia Hardstark? Small town. Also, that's just- The tragic mom dying of cancer when you're nine years old is like the most painful thing.
15:02 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely. And then the dad loses it. It sounds like he was not able to hold it together. He finally loses the family home when Annie is 15. And so he moves into an apartment and Annie, who's an athlete and a great student, winds up living with the family that she babysits for in order to stay in her high school.
15:19 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, because she doesn't want to be out of the district.
15:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And they adore her. They consider her part of the family, but she's just not totally comfortable, you know, living there. She just feels weird.
15:28 Georgia Hardstark? It's like you're a guest your whole life. That's awful.
15:31 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely. And so that arrangement ends towards the end of high school. And at that point, Annie briefly moves back in with her dad and then lives with her two eldest brothers. She's also working in a restaurant and is essentially like a self-sufficient adult, even though she's just 17. It's like that, take care of yourself.
15:47 Georgia Hardstark? Because you have to.
15:48 Georgia Hardstark? Because you have to, yeah. And she actually fucking thrives and makes it. She graduates from high school, goes on to college. She initially flourishes in college and then struggles with depression and has to take a break, but she gets therapy and graduates. She does struggle with anorexia as well, as so many young women do. The Fahey kids, bolstered by that great community that they're part of, had all managed to do well in school, get good jobs, and generally make nice lives for themselves. Like, they beat the fucking odds and they really,
16:18 Georgia Hardstark? That's great.
16:19 Georgia Hardstark? They really went for it.
16:20 Georgia Hardstark? Probably because they have community, it sounds like.
16:22 Georgia Hardstark? It seems like it's a very helpful thing.
16:24 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah. It's big. Like, there's a family that's like, please come and live with us.
16:28 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:28 Georgia Hardstark? While this is happening to you or like.
16:30 Georgia Hardstark? Having other adults to count on when you're a kid who can't count on your parents is just a huge part of it.
16:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yep.
16:36 Georgia Hardstark? Of like making it. Back in 1996, when Annie goes missing, it's the last week of Delaware's legislative session. So at first Annie's brother and boyfriend think it's possible that she had been caught up working late the night that she was supposed to meet them for dinner. It's normal for staffers in the governor's office to spend the night working at crunch times like this. But then at 9:00 PM, Mike, the boyfriend, calls Annie's older sister, who's very concerned right off the bat. And she starts calling Annie's friends and one of the friends who work with her says that she's not working late, so she is just missing. And Mike had driven past Annie's apartment early in the day before they were supposed to meet to go to dinner and had seen her car there. And it's still there, even though Annie isn't picking up the phone in her apartment. Annie's landlady says she hasn't seen her in the last two days.
17:21 Georgia Hardstark? No one's really talked to her. Basically, they realized no one's heard from her since Thursday, the 27th, and now it's Saturday. So the landlady lets them into the apartment and it's really out of character, the way her apartment is left. It's really strange for her because she's very neat and organized. She's so neat and organized that she stacks her pennies so that each coin has Lincoln's profile facing in the same direction, which I'm just picturing Vince, like he has to have his bills facing the same way and in the right order, and he's really precise about that.
17:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, because when you are a child and you grow up in this situation where things are out of your control all of the time, you learn to get some control in the places that you can get it.
18:03 Georgia Hardstark? Totally, totally. She also never lets trash sit in her apartment, always taking like smaller bags out whenever she leaves. But when they get into her apartment today, there's rotting produce all over the kitchen counters because she hadn't put her food away, her groceries away in the kitchen. So there's like a rotting smell, which is so not like her. They also find leftovers from a restaurant in Philadelphia called Panorama that are in the fridge. They don't look super old, but they are dry, so they're not like super recent leftovers. So they've definitely been sitting there for a few days. Mike says he and Annie had not eaten there together. Philadelphia is about a 40-minute drive from Wilmington. There's other weird stuff in the kitchen. There's samples of prescription medications scattered around and packages of food on
18:48 Georgia Hardstark? the counter but not put away. Annie's purse is also in the kitchen. Her wallet is there with cash in it, but her keys are missing, her house and car keys are missing. Other than that, the apartment looks mostly the way Annie would leave, and a couple of small things are different. It's a small apartment, modestly furnished, but decorated with Annie's little touches. As I said, she keeps her stuffed animals with those pins on them. So at midnight, everyone's worried. Annie's sister calls the police. And once they eventually get there, one of Annie's friends mentions that she has unheard messages on her answering machine. There's no cell phones. There's a blinking answering machine. Mm hmm. They listen to the messages, which are almost entirely from everyone in the room.
19:29 Georgia Hardstark? But all of them are from Thursday afternoon on. So she hadn't listened to them, which is very unlike Annie. She always listens to her messages and calls right back. So Annie's sister Catherine then shows the police something she had found before the police arrived. She'd been looking through the letters and cards in Annie's drawers and found a letter that ends with, quote, "All I want to do is make you happy and be with you. I love you," end quote. It's not signed, but it's on a letterhead that says, "From the desk of Thomas Capono." So that is, here is Mark Harmon. Right. Okay. The name Tom Capono is familiar to Kathleen, the sister she knows of him. He's a prominent
20:09 Georgia Hardstark? lawyer and political advisor from a prominent real estate family. But she's weirded out by this letter, obviously, both because of the way it ends and because she, Kathleen, is briefly mentioned in it. So it's a long letter that talks about Annie's family with a lot of familiarity, as if he and Annie have talked a lot and she's never even heard of, like, this dude in relation to Annie. Right. She doesn't know him personally. Yeah. Yeah. Tom is very involved in politics. He's worked as a legal counsel for a previous governor, not the one Annie worked for, and is a political consultant. Tom's father is a very successful real estate developer, and Tom's a very successful lawyer. But he has three younger brothers, Louis, Joey, and Jerry, and none of them are nearly as
20:53 Georgia Hardstark? buttoned up and professional as Tom seemingly is. They've all been involved in various degrees of crime in their personal lives and professional lives. Jerry, as Anne Ruhl puts it, quote, "seem to care for nothing but guns, shark fishing, big game hunting, and girls with big hair and clothes that fit like a second skin," end quote. That's Ann Rule for you. She's gonna say it. She's not gonna spare anyone's feelings. Can you imagine if that was like, your big interest is shark fishing? No, leave them alone. Get away from big game. Stop it with the elephants and the sharks. So Louis and Joey, two of the brothers, work in the family real estate development business. Jerry is the loosest cannon. He can't be in an office setting. And me neither.
21:35 Georgia Hardstark? And starts a landscaping business and has a lot of client overlap with his brothers. Tom also has an older sister, Marion, who's played by Olympia Dukakis. Fucking legend. My favorite. Such a legend. And she's completely excluded from the family business. She's supposed to get an allowance from her brothers, but they just always fight instead. All this to say, Tom has a very good reputation, but his family does not. When Tom and Annie meet in 1993, three years before her disappearance, he's about 43 and she is about 26. This is years before she meets Mike, her new boyfriend. Tom is married at the time and has four daughters. Not great. But he also has a mistress named Debbie, who he's been seeing for years.
22:20 Georgia Hardstark? Annie and Tom meet at a political fundraiser and have a lot of people in common, including those close family friends who own the pub, because they're also very involved in local politics. So they kind of just meet and click. And they're both from big Delaware families, from adjacent immigrant communities. She's Irish and he's Italian, and it's just like this insular community. So they kind of. You can hear the accordion music playing in the background. Yes. So Annie and Tom have a work lunch together after they meet, but quickly after that, they start having dinner dates. Annie and her friends are all just starting out, not making much money. And Tom takes her to nice restaurants, gives her that access to the kind of life she hasn't been able to have before. Yep. You know, grooming. That's what they call it, yeah.
23:05 Georgia Hardstark? Over the next couple of years, Tom and Annie are sort of on and off again. And in between, Annie dates other people. During this whole period, Annie struggles with her mental health, particularly with her anorexia. And she experiences a huge setback when her psychologist is killed in a drunk driving accident. Terrible. Yeah. It takes Annie a while to find a new one, and in this period, she leans on Tom a lot more. All this time, she writes in a diary documenting her relationship with Tom and other things going on in her life. By 1995, when she's 28, she confides in her work friend, Jill, that Tom seems like he's trying to control her. I mean, you know, he's in his late 40s and, and he's a professional and he's married and he has children. He's just,
23:48 Georgia Hardstark? it's just that thing that you can picture that happens all the fucking time.
23:51 Karen Kilgariff? Right. Cause it's like, that is part of why he's doing it. You know, he's showing himself, but then he can't, he has to control her because if she steps out of line for one second, he's got all these things at risk.
24:03 Georgia Hardstark? A lot of things could go wrong.
24:04 Karen Kilgariff? That's not, in no way am I saying that he was right for that.
24:08 Georgia Hardstark? No, no, no.
24:09 Karen Kilgariff? It's disgusting and weird.
24:10 Georgia Hardstark? So he's starting to try to control her. He makes her interview for a job being a personal assistant to his brother, Louis, the sleazy real estate developer. And it's clear that Tom just wants to keep Annie close and under his control. Thankfully, Annie doesn't take the job, but Tom tries to control how she dresses. He tries to isolate her from her friends and becomes upset when he thinks she's spending too much time with them. It's all just, it's textbook control abuse.
24:37 Karen Kilgariff? Why are all the boyfriends that are so terrible, the ones that have like six girlfriends? It's like, can you just do this to one person and then hang it up? Get yourself a therapist?
24:47 Georgia Hardstark? Seriously.
24:48 Karen Kilgariff? Jesus.
24:49 Georgia Hardstark? He also repeatedly tells her that they should end the relationship and then abruptly changes his mind. And there are times when Annie also tries to end a relationship, but he always guilts her into changing her mind. Around this time in September of 1995, Tom and his wife separate, but this is also when Annie meets Mike. And it's actually the governor of Delaware who sets the two of them up, which is like, you legally have to get married now. The governor of Delaware is like, hey, I got a nice guy for you.
25:17 Karen Kilgariff? Have you ever seen or heard of the governor of Delaware?
25:20 Georgia Hardstark? No, because he's...
25:21 Karen Kilgariff? They're not real.
25:23 Georgia Hardstark? I don't think they're real.
25:24 Georgia Hardstark? Mike is kind and he, you know, he's the same age as Annie and they start seriously dating in October and at the same time, Tom is telling both Annie and his other mistress that he has left his wife for them.
25:37 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, got it.
25:39 Georgia Hardstark? The women don't know about each other. Annie tells Tom she's seeing someone and wants to break it off and Tom starts calling her 20 times a day. He threatens to tell Mike, the new boyfriend, about their relationship, even though it seems like they're not really seeing each other anymore. On one occasion, he bursts into her apartment and gathers every item he's ever given to her. And at this point, in addition to promising to marry Debbie, the mistress who predates Annie, Tom is also having a different affair with a woman from work, surprising to nobody. So he's just fucking around.
26:09 Georgia Hardstark? Four total?
26:10 Georgia Hardstark? Three now.
26:11 Georgia Hardstark? Cause the wife.
26:12 Georgia Hardstark? Cause the wife was probably like enough already. Yeah, right. So, spring goes better for Annie. She finds a new therapist, she keeps seeing Mike and Tom seems to be busy with his multiple other women. He's mostly leaving Annie alone, but at the end of April, he turns up again, sending a ton of emails from his work email to her. He starts out by eliciting sympathy by talking about one of his daughter's health issues and soon he's sending little jokes. He just kind of reels her back in, offering to pay for a new windshield, that crack that she needs help with and is stressed about just doing those things.
26:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, just like white knighting.
26:49 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
26:49 Georgia Hardstark? Wherever he can.
26:50 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly. And despite progress in therapy, Annie's at a point where she's really struggling with her eating disorder and on June 12th, about two weeks before her disappearance, she faints at work. I've done that. Mike, the boyfriend, is aware of her history of anorexia, but she still doesn't want him to know how bad it is at the moment. I've totally done that before where I used to have an eating disorder. I don't anymore and I faint.
27:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah. Well, also that's, talk about a control issue. That's like eating disorders.
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? So it's kind of, you know, it's like bad to worse for her. Cause it's like she already has this issue. And then the people that she has in her life.
27:29 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
27:30 Georgia Hardstark? Aren't the people that you want helping you in that moment.
27:32 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely. And so she's too like embarrassed to tell her new boyfriend that this is going on right now. And so she calls Tom, he knows all about it, he's been there for years and he picks up the phone and he drives her home after she faints. So Tom interprets this as Annie choosing him over Mike. So he keeps contacting her after this. He offers to buy her things. She keeps saying, "No." He offers to get the cracked windshield fixed and she refuses. And she does so very politely in emails, but she's still firmly refusing to accept anything from him. Like, it wasn't an invitation to come back in her life.
28:08 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
28:09 Georgia Hardstark? Then, at the end of June, he invites her out to dinner with him on the Thursday night that she was last seen. Annie doesn't reply in the email, so if she does accept, it seems like she did so over the phone, so there's no record of it. And she doesn't tell anyone about the invitation or whether or not she accepted it.
28:25 Karen Kilgariff? I hate that. Like, we've talked about that scenario before, where you kind of paint yourself into this corner of no one knows where you are.
28:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:32 Karen Kilgariff? Because you think, for whatever reason, that you think that. It's, I hate that.
28:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Just tell someone. So with Annie missing, her close friends confirm their relationship with Tom to the police and tell them that Annie had complained about him being controlling. There's more correspondence from Tom on his firm's stationery. Annie had her detailed diary as well that lays out the whole story of their relationship. One of the most recent entries talks about breaking it off and says, quote, "I finally have brought closure to Tom Capano. What a controlling, manipulative, insecure, jealous maniac," end quote.
29:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yeah.
29:12 Georgia Hardstark? So now, the police are trying to confirm if Annie went to dinner with Tom on that Thursday, June 27th, the last time she was seen. It seems that way because of the leftovers that were from the Philadelphia restaurant in her fridge. It's a place they had gone to before together. Tom had told his longtime mistress Debbie that he had plans in Philadelphia that evening, but that he would probably be done by 9:30. So it seems like the plans were with Annie. And then he was going to go to his mistress's house. At 3:30 a.m. on Sunday morning, the 30th, two detectives knock on Tom's door. Tom says he's aware that Annie is missing. He tells the police that the last time he saw her was that Thursday night, confirms they went to dinner, and that he drove her, that they stopped briefly at his apartment to pick up some groceries he had bought for Annie and
29:56 Georgia Hardstark? then went back to her apartment. He says he put the grocery bag down on the counter. Gave her another gift and used the bathroom and left. And that was the last time he saw her was when he left her at the apartment.
30:06 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
30:06 Georgia Hardstark? The detective asked if they can look around the house, but Tom says that his daughters are asleep upstairs and doesn't want them to get scared and refuses to let them in. And they don't have a warrant. And so they come back the next morning. And so who knows what evidence they would have found if they had insisted on coming in or had a warrant. And when they do come back at 10 a.m., Tom isn't there. They finally track him down. He takes them back to the house to look around. They're not doing a full search, but the house looks very clean, is what they say. The detectives are bracing for an uphill battle and for a publicity. Tom is a well-known and well-respected lawyer with a lot of connections. His brothers are known to be in trouble with the law from time to time, but not Tom. So everyone is pretty shocked about this.
30:50 Georgia Hardstark? Actually, there's some motorinos who wrote in that said their dads used to like hang out with him, like in groups with him sometimes. And everyone was very surprised that he was implicated.
31:00 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
31:00 Georgia Hardstark? You know.
31:01 Karen Kilgariff? He's the good boy.
31:02 Georgia Hardstark? Right. On the outside, he kept his shit together.
31:04 Karen Kilgariff? Well, and also that's the ultimate position to be in because if you're the one that like gets your homework done and goes to school and becomes a lawyer, and then you have these kind of like dirt-baggy brothers.
31:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
31:15 Karen Kilgariff? To a degree, we don't know these people, but you always look good no matter what.
31:19 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
31:19 Karen Kilgariff? And you can always make yourself look good because you're just playing that, you're playing your position essentially.
31:24 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So at this point, the Fahy siblings are all working hard to get Annie's disappearance out to the press. And she's on the front page of all the local newspapers. It becomes a huge story because stuff like this does not happen in Wilmington or in Delaware at all. Oh, Freels, the pub that was the hub for the Fahy's community, hangs a banner with a photo of Annie advertising a $10,000 reward for information leading to her recovery, which in today's money, $10,000.
31:51 Karen Kilgariff? This is 87?
31:52 Georgia Hardstark? 96.
31:53 Karen Kilgariff? 96.
31:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. It's less than you think it would be.
31:56 Karen Kilgariff? 40,000?
31:57 Georgia Hardstark? 20,000.
31:58 Karen Kilgariff? That's way less.
31:59 Georgia Hardstark? 500, I know.
32:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
32:01 Georgia Hardstark? Annie's therapist comes forward and tells police that she's worried that Tom has abducted Annie because Annie had brought this up as something she worried about in therapy, him abducting her. She was specifically worried that Tom would hire people to do it. They discussed this at their very last session before Annie disappeared. And she said that she urged Annie to report him to the Attorney General's office. Some people believe that Annie did threaten him that night to do that, and that is what maybe set Tom off.
32:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that would make sense. I mean, that's horrifying, and it just makes me think of every, that's like every part of Law and Order when they go to the therapist and they're like, "I can't tell you." And they're like, "Someone could be dead."
32:41 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
32:42 Karen Kilgariff? It's like, to get that therapist, who I'm sure was very motivated to be like, "I need to tell you what the last thing she told me."
32:49 Georgia Hardstark? Right, because it's exactly what's happening right now.
32:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, horrifying.
32:53 Georgia Hardstark? As investigators learn more about Tom, they learn that he's had other affairs and has a history of becoming threatening and possessive. In one case, in the late 70s, long before Annie, he had been having an affair with an engaged woman while he was newly married. He showed up at her bachelorette party and at the wedding and wrote her obsessive letters for months. So he was just unhinged.
33:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, he couldn't stop. Well, again, because it's control.
33:18 Georgia Hardstark? Right, he was like a stalker. Then he tried to hire a man to beat her up or hit her with a car, specifically requesting these two things. But the man he tried to hire went to the FBI with tapes of Tom's phone calls.
33:31 Karen Kilgariff? I love when hitmen do that.
33:33 Georgia Hardstark? 100%.
33:34 Karen Kilgariff? It's not that common, I don't think. But like, every once in a while, they'll be like, "You know what? No, this is wrong."
33:39 Georgia Hardstark? This is against my code of conduct, and I'm a hitman. And like, "Who the fuck are you?"
33:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
33:44 Georgia Hardstark? It's terrifying.
33:45 Karen Kilgariff? But also, there's that idea, it's like, hiring someone to hit them with a car.
33:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:50 Karen Kilgariff? Disgusting.
33:51 Georgia Hardstark? That's awful. But authorities essentially, at that time, give Tom a slap on the wrist and send him on his way.
33:57 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
33:58 Georgia Hardstark? I know. The FBI is called into Annie's case at the personal request of Governor Carper, who's Annie's boss. And in July, they do an extensive search of Tom's house. They find out that Tom had replaced, this is just like textbook, replaced the carpet and the sofa in his living room the weekend Annie disappeared.
34:15 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
34:16 Georgia Hardstark? I know. He also had gone to a drugstore and bought a cleaning product with this fucking name that is just, are you ready for this?
34:24 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
34:24 Georgia Hardstark? It's called Carbona Blood and Milk Remover.
34:27 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, sir.
34:28 Georgia Hardstark? What?
34:28 Georgia Hardstark? That's a confession.
34:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:30 Georgia Hardstark? At the Ace Hardware.
34:31 Georgia Hardstark? But why milk, Carbona? I want to ask the Carbona family. Like, can you just do blood?
34:35 Georgia Hardstark? I wonder if milk stinks and even when you get it up, like, it still keeps stinking if it's in there.
34:40 Georgia Hardstark? You're a farm girl. There you go.
34:42 Georgia Hardstark? I'm a farm girl and I've dropped many a latte in my car. So many more.
34:47 Georgia Hardstark? That latte smell in the car is sour.
34:50 Georgia Hardstark? You're just like, it's fine. I like vanilla lattes. And then like, a week later, like, why does everything turn out this way?
34:55 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, you explain. Sorry, Carbona family, don't at me. I get you now.
34:59 Georgia Hardstark? They're like this, "Do you understand what milk is like in carpeting?"
35:03 Georgia Hardstark? Milk, blood.
35:04 Georgia Hardstark? Milk, blood, it's all in there.
35:06 Georgia Hardstark? The search also turns up blood stains on the woodwork in the living room and on a radiator and on the door of a laundry closet. Like, blood and you're, yeah.
35:16 Georgia Hardstark? So when the cops knocked, he was standing there, right? If they had just walked in and looked at that room, something might have been there?
35:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And they didn't have a warrant, but they could have maybe gotten one, but also he was political, so maybe it would have been impossible. Who knows? You know, it's just a missed opportunity. But they don't have a body to match the blood to, right? Because Annie is missing. So the agents learned that Annie donated blood very regularly. They locate, they track down her last donation right before it gets shipped overseas to test it.
35:49 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
35:50 Georgia Hardstark? In the nick of time and the blood is found to be a match. That is some detective work, right?
35:56 Georgia Hardstark? And also, fully makes up for having to stand at that doorway, not do anything.
36:01 Georgia Hardstark? That might have been the FBI and then that might have been the local.
36:04 Georgia Hardstark? But thank god.
36:05 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
36:05 Georgia Hardstark? Because also, that kind of thing, if it is that overt and horrible of a murder, where he just killed her in his living room because he was angry or something.
36:15 Georgia Hardstark? Blood everywhere.
36:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. But there's no body. And at the time, it is very rare for anyone to be arrested, for anyone to be tried for murder, without a body.
36:26 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
36:27 Georgia Hardstark? It's 1996. But around this same time, when they find all this evidence of blood, Tom's brother Jerry, Tom and Jerry.
36:35 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
36:35 Georgia Hardstark? Is arrested on drug and weapons charges. And you know what happens to like, regular criminals?
36:43 Karen Kilgariff? They snitch.
36:44 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly. So he's like, I'll cooperate with you to get a better case on the shit that I'm in trouble with. And essentially, completely throws his brother under the bus.
36:54 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, wow.
36:55 Georgia Hardstark? Completely rats his brother out.
36:56 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
36:57 Georgia Hardstark? Louis, one of Tom's older brothers, also winds up cooperating. So Jerry and Louis tell police that Tom did kill Annie at his own house, and that he put her body in a fishing cooler. The day after she was last seen, Tom and Jerry used Jerry's boat to go about 70 miles off the coast of Stone Harbor. But then the cooler wouldn't sink. So instead, they wrapped two anchors around Annie's body and let her sink into the Atlantic, and then they threw the empty cooler into the water. And when the story's made public, two fishermen come forward, saying they had found a cooler in the ocean, like the one described, off the Jersey Shore. And they had used it to store fish, but the cooler is found to match the one Jerry described, corroborating his story.
37:42 Karen Kilgariff? I'm pretty sure, and I could be wrong with all the things we've looked at over the years, but I'm pretty sure I've seen the clip of those fishermen who talked to the news.
37:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
37:52 Karen Kilgariff? Because they found that. Because it's like, they show it like, floating out here.
37:56 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
37:56 Karen Kilgariff? In the middle of the whatever. And it is so disturbing.
37:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:00 Karen Kilgariff? Like, this idea where there are people, as we know, in this world, that if they want you gone, you're gone.
38:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:06 Karen Kilgariff? Because they know how to do it, and they know those kinds of details.
38:09 Georgia Hardstark? It's awful. I can't imagine.
38:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
38:12 Georgia Hardstark? The case goes to trial, October of 1998. In court, Tom tells a different story than anyone's ever heard before. His brothers have ratted him out. He kind of can't fight that. So he confirms that he brought Annie to his house after dropping the gift and groceries at her house.
38:27 Karen Kilgariff? Wait, can I guess? She did something to him.
38:29 Georgia Hardstark? Even worse.
38:29 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
38:30 Georgia Hardstark? The mistress did it. Her name's Debbie. I'm not saying her last name because it's just such bullshit. He's saying that Debbie shows up, discovers them together, she's upset, there's a scuffle, and Debbie has a gun, and he grabs Debbie's arm and the gun goes off. That's what he says happened. He admits to hiding Annie's body and claims Debbie helped him do it. Debbie testifies, too, and she vehemently denies being at his house that night, although she does say one time Tom had asked her to buy a handgun in her name, and she did. She says she gave it to him and never saw it again. So all she does is fucking point the finger that he actually has a gun.
39:08 Karen Kilgariff? Well, she better because he was like, oh, no, here's who I'm gonna throw under the bus. And she's like, the one person that actually loved you, that thought this was all real, and now is finding out you have, you know, all these other mistresses and whatever, and you're gonna blame me?
39:24 Georgia Hardstark? I have shit on you, bro.
39:26 Karen Kilgariff? Just like, when does it, it's craven.
39:29 Georgia Hardstark? Fucking Mark Harmon. Tom is found guilty of first-degree murder, and it's the first time in Delaware history that someone is convicted of murder in the absence of a body or a murder weapon. So they don't have either, but they're still able to convict her. At first, Tom is sentenced to death, but on one of his appeals, the death sentence is overturned since it had been decided by a jury verdict that was not unanimous. He is sentenced to life in prison instead. He appeals several more times, and his conviction is affirmed each time. Tom dies in prison at the age of 61 in 2011 of heart failure. Annie is remembered as a bright light in the Wilmington community, and in Brandywine Park, there's a bench dedicated to her memory. O'Friel's Pub, where all the Fahey kids worked, and
40:14 Georgia Hardstark? where Annie first met Mike, closes in 2001. But until it does, the banner with Annie's picture advertising the reward for information leading to her return remains hanging.
40:25 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that kills me.
40:26 Georgia Hardstark? And I think there's so many murderinos that started with this case from Delaware. So many people wrote in.
40:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
40:33 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, it's just...
40:33 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, they kept a sign up.
40:35 Georgia Hardstark? I know. And that is the story of the murder of Anne Marie Fahey.
40:40 Karen Kilgariff? What a loss.
40:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
40:42 Karen Kilgariff? Horrible.
40:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, always, but...
40:45 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, always. Always, but, man, this one.
40:48 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
40:50 Karen Kilgariff? This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial.
41:31 Karen Kilgariff? And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.
41:43 Georgia Hardstark? You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.
41:51 Karen Kilgariff? Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.
41:57 Georgia Hardstark? Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.
42:02 Karen Kilgariff? That's why there's Solace Health.
42:03 Georgia Hardstark? Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.
42:09 Karen Kilgariff? Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.
42:15 Georgia Hardstark? They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.
42:21 Karen Kilgariff? Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.
42:27 Georgia Hardstark? Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.
42:32 Karen Kilgariff? Eligibility varies by insurance plan.
42:34 Georgia Hardstark? Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.
42:39 Karen Kilgariff? Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.
42:42 Georgia Hardstark? It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.
42:44 Karen Kilgariff? That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder. Goodbye.
42:49 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest. If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime. Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula. Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed. I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet and suddenly you're asleep.
43:34 Georgia Hardstark? And the next morning, you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy. And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want? How dare you call my feet stinky? For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye. The Hulu original series, Phony, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great. Until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom. To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives. But for Sonny, he knows something is off. As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger. Is this all in his head
44:18 Georgia Hardstark? or is there really an imposter in his house? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series, Phony. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.
44:37 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, I'm gonna turn it around. Are you ready? I'm so fucking ready. Okay. Because I was tough. Yeah. But there are good things that happen in the world, remember? When? I'll tell you, there's a Twitter account called Historic Videos, but then the handle is History and Memes. And so that's, I saw this Reddit, nice three paragraph tweet. Great. And I was like, I've never heard this story and I think other people should know this story. And especially you and I, you being a native of LA, me being a longtime citizen. If you live in LA or you watch The Kardashians, you know what a big part of the culture here Armenians are. It's apparently the largest concentration of Armenians outside of Armenia is in Glendale,
45:22 Karen Kilgariff? which is a suburb of LA. And so when I started reading this, I was like, oh, this is great. This is, there's lots of people are gonna like this story. So if you don't know, Armenia is a small landlocked country about the size of Maryland. I would wonder how it competes with Delaware, but don't know anything about our states. It's a beautiful country and it's actually filled with beautiful lakes and waterfalls and mineral springs. But the history in Armenia is incredibly heavy. In 1915, toward the end of the Ottoman Empire, around 1.5 million Armenians were murdered in a devastating state sanctioned genocide, which is why there are so many Armenian immigrants in LA.
46:06 Karen Kilgariff? So the story I'm about to tell you takes place 60 years after that, when Armenia is under Soviet rule. It is a late September evening in 1976, the workday is coming to an end, and dozens of commuters are making their way across Yerevan, which is the capital of Armenia and the largest city in the whole country. It's a typical rush hour, but it's interrupted by the sound of screeching metal and then a big crashing boom. And people scream in terror as they watch a packed trolley bus veer off its tracks along Lake Yerevan, a huge reservoir in the city. Later on, they'll say that per investigation, the driver was speeding,
46:50 Karen Kilgariff? but witnesses will actually come forward and report that he had been trying to prevent a pickpocket from leaving the trolley bus. And so he refused to brake to let that person off. And then he was hit over the head with a metal bar and knocked out. Holy shit. So then the trolley bus not only didn't brake, but kept speeding. And it flies over a curb and then slams nose first into the concrete perimeter that runs around the reservoir. It flips a few times and then it rolls into Lake Yerevan. And there are nearly 100 people, school kids, factory workers, housewives, retirees, that are trapped inside and seconds from drowning in this very cold lake water.
47:34 Karen Kilgariff? But they are not helpless because one particularly capable bystander immediately springs into action. Superman? Kind of. This is the story of a truly heroic Armenian athlete named Shavarsh Karapetyan. Yes. Have you heard of this? I read it in the same style that you found it in on like random history, interesting history. Right? Yes. So the main source used in today's story is a 2014 Grantland article by a writer named Carl Schreck entitled "The Plunge," and the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So we're going to go back 20 years before the crash I just described to 1953, when
48:16 Karen Kilgariff? Shavarsh was born into a working-class Armenian family. His path in life is more or less decided for him because his father Vladimir has dreams for his three sons, Shavarsh, Kamo, and Anatoly, of them all becoming world-class athletes. It's a partially strategic dream that he has because excelling in sports is one of the few ways Armenians, especially those from humble backgrounds, can have any kind of upward mobility without drawing too much attention from Soviet authorities. Sure. So it's like a way to get ahead. Yeah. So Vladimir signs his boys up for gymnastics under an incredibly accomplished Armenian
48:56 Karen Kilgariff? athlete and Olympic gold medalist named Albert Azarian. Immediately, Shavarsh shows a ton of potential. He's said to have a, quote, "commanding build, quick reflexes, and relentless ambition." Me too. And so... It's the commanding build that really I think has gotten you so far.
49:16 Georgia Hardstark? Definitely.
49:17 Karen Kilgariff? A lot of this.
49:18 Georgia Hardstark? They all say.
49:18 Karen Kilgariff? Lot of muscle, muscle flexing. But even with such raw talent, Shavarsh's coaches don't think he can make a career out of gymnastics because he begins training when he is a little too old in a sport where competitors peak in their early teens. And he's like in his mid teens. But nobody wants to see him leave competitive sports because he's so kind of such a natural. So one coach suggests he pivots to swimming. And this is out of left field as reporter Carl Schreck explains in 2014. Quote, Armenia is not a nation of swimmers. The country is home to just a handful of public pools. A few of Armenia's lakes and rivers are suitable for swimming.
50:02 Karen Kilgariff? The president of the Armenian Swimming Federation estimates that only 30% of the population knows how to swim.
50:08 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
50:09 Karen Kilgariff? A figure he says has changed little since Soviet times.
50:12 Georgia Hardstark? Interesting. I guess if you're landlocked, right, you're not like.
50:15 Karen Kilgariff? Maybe they do a little more like standing around and splashing the water up onto themselves in a lake or a stream.
50:21 Georgia Hardstark? Always nice.
50:22 Karen Kilgariff? But no, they won't get their face wet like my mom at Blue Lake when she would be like always worrying about her hair and makeup. But Shavarsh commits himself to the sport and he eventually joins a league dedicated to developing professional Soviet swimmers. And sure enough, Shavarsh is good. He's particularly fast in backstroke and freestyle events. And he quickly earns a reputation for being one of Armenia's most promising young swimmers. But over the next several years, he starts to lag behind the other swimmers in his age group. It's said that he's, as he grows older, he becomes less flexible. And he just starts having a hard time nailing down his stroke technique and that slows him down.
51:04 Karen Kilgariff? And then at just 17 years old, Shavarsh is dropped from his swimming league. Of course, this is a huge gut punch for him. His dreams of becoming a champion swimmer are gone. So he hits a bar that night with a fellow swimmer, presumably to drown his sorrows. But that same friend happens to be recruiting athletes for a fin swimming team. Hmm, I don't know what that is. Luckily, there's a paragraph right under here that will tell you. Fin swimming is pretty much what it sounds like. It's an event where competitors race one another with fins strapped to their feet. It might be two fins like scuba divers, like they wear. Or it could be what's called a quote mono fin, which is one big, single fin. Oh, like a mermaid. That you're playing mermaid in the pool.
51:48 Karen Kilgariff? I was picturing like, why would they put a shark fin to look like shark? Yeah, but no. And then they chum the waters. It's really strange. It's role play. Don't worry about it. Yeah, it's shark role play. So Shavarsha's interested and he doesn't feel like he has any time to waste. So even though he was drinking a combination of vodka and beer all afternoon. Oh, no. He says, quote, "I took a taxi home, rested up a bit and came back for my first workout." Okay, well, when you're 17, man, you can do fucking anything. Yeah, and also there's part of it that's like, I gotta do this for my entire future. It's not a hobby. Okay, fair enough. So even for a seasoned athlete like Shavarsha, who's been training in gyms and pools since he was a little kid, fin swimming workouts are next level. Oh, God, I bet.
52:33 Karen Kilgariff? And many of them happen outside of the pool and they're geared at body conditioning. To paint a picture, Shavarsha's training might entail running upwards of 18 miles around town with a backpack filled with sand strapped to his back. Ah, it's the OG weighted vest. Yes, and here's the OG-er weighted vest. He also might run around with a fellow swimmer on his shoulders. I mean. Weighted vest, Steve, Steve the weighted vest. Chicken fighting. It's all classic training. He also climbs hills on his arms. Oh, fuck, army crawling up a hill? Oh, wheelbarrow style as a teammate holds his legs. How cute.
53:14 Karen Kilgariff? So he has to like, get up there. So they're just trying to make, it's kind of like Rocky when he fights the Russian guy. Where it's like, the workout is insane. But the Russian guy is the pool. That's, the pool is fighting him. Yeah. Shavarsha also becomes known as the guy who jogs with ski boots attached to big planks of wood around his neighborhood to strengthen his ankles and feet. Okay. He's in it. He's showing off. He's 18 at this point, 17, 18. One of the most important skills that Chavarre develops in this training is breath control. In fin swimming, competitors might use snorkels for longer distance races, but in sprints, they typically hold their breath the entire time. So, according to experts, you can safely hold your breath for around a minute.
53:57 Karen Kilgariff? Some people can go longer, but then you're getting into dangerous territory where you can actually damage your heart and your brain.
54:04 Georgia Hardstark? Huh.
54:04 Karen Kilgariff? So, we don't have an exact number for how long Chavarre could hold his breath. We know it's several minutes, which is pretty unbelievable. Do not try this at home.
54:13 Georgia Hardstark? No, I swear I saw recently, like, the record just got broken for the longest breath holding.
54:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, like some sort of a deep free swim dive or something.
54:22 Georgia Hardstark? Are you a scientist and you know a lot about it? Write in at myfavoritemurder.com and tell us everything about breath holding.
54:27 Karen Kilgariff? I know, because I thought there are some people who could do it like three minutes or something.
54:31 Georgia Hardstark? But then like, I swear recently it was like five minutes, but that doesn't sound right. And like the damage, that's like...
54:37 Karen Kilgariff? The damage, unless it just pops you right into being a mermaid.
54:40 Georgia Hardstark? We found an article where it's 30 minutes. 30 minutes?
54:44 Karen Kilgariff? No.
54:45 Georgia Hardstark? 3-0? We need to hear, we need, what do we need? Breath doctors to tell us all about it.
54:50 Karen Kilgariff? Jesus Christ.
54:51 Georgia Hardstark? For a minisode, My Favorite Murder.
54:53 Karen Kilgariff? Also, is your midsection super wide if you can hold your breath for a half an hour?
54:57 Georgia Hardstark? Pufferfish?
54:58 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, love to discuss breath holding further, Murderino, if you would please engage.
55:03 Georgia Hardstark? Someone at home is like, "My time to shine, finally. I've written you 10 hometowns of actual true crime and now..."
55:11 Karen Kilgariff? It's my cousin Stevie who used to hold his breath to make himself pass out so that my, he wouldn't be in trouble with my aunt.
55:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oof.
55:19 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so all of this strength training and breath training pays off big time because Chavarre becomes an excellent fin swimmer. He rips through pools like a torpedo and he rarely has to surface because he can hold his breath for so long. Not that long, 30 fucking minutes. I mean, but also I wonder if one minute wasn't just a mistype of Maron's and it was supposed to be like 15 or something. Because one minute is, I feel like we could do that. No brag. Okay. Give me a week and maybe I could do it. Yeah, we'd have to do some exercise. We'd have to get some bags of sand vest for you. Steve, gotta get Steve the weighted vest. Get up there. So at just 19 years old, Shavarshe fulfills a childhood dream. He competes
56:00 Karen Kilgariff? on behalf of the Soviet Union in the 1972 European Championship Games in Moscow. And he walks away with gold medals in the 50 and 100 meter fin swimming sprints and all the glory he could hold. A Soviet magazine writes, quote, "It's safe to say we'll see this young athlete from Armenia at many more major championships." And Shavarshe does fin swim as part of the Soviet team in the next two European Championships, 73 and 74. He sets world records and takes home a total of eight gold medals. But at this high point in his career, when he's only in his early twenties, he's inexplicably dropped by the Soviet team. No. Yeah. The reason why is a mystery even today. Shavarshe's best guess is that Soviet
56:45 Karen Kilgariff? sports officials wanted to showcase more Russian athletes. For sure. On the team. But Shavarshe's gotten used to having the carpet pulled from underneath him. Competitive sports are his life and livelihood, so again, he refuses to give up. He figures that his best move is to practice harder than ever has before until he's so singularly impressive in the pool that the Soviets can't help but bring him back to the team. And that's what Shavarshe Karapetyan was doing on September 16, 1976, the day of the trolley bus crash. Oh, I almost forgot about it. He is now 23 years old, running near the reservoir on another one of his grueling
57:25 Karen Kilgariff? training sessions. And he had already run 13 miles with 45 pounds of sand strapped to his back in a backpack. Which in today's money is like three marathons. I mean, that much sand for me would be like 300 pounds of sand. I'd be like, I can't lift this and I don't know why you're being so unreasonable. Seriously. He's joined by his brother, Kommo, who's also a competitive athlete in swimming and other events. So Shavarshe and Kommo hear this crash of the trolley bus as it flies off its tracks into the lake. And before Shavarsh can even figure out what he's doing, he finds himself running in the direction of the explosion. Kamo rushes after him. The trolley bus hits the lake bed and sinks quickly, kicking up a cloud of heavy silt,
58:10 Karen Kilgariff? and it ends up resting about 15 feet underwater. Shavarsh, acting purely on impulse and adrenaline, rushes down to the lake, strips to his underwear, throws off his backpack, and jumps into the water. Years later, his brother Kamo will tell writer Carl Schreck that, quote, "To this day, I ask myself, if I had sprinted to the scene and hadn't seen Shavarsh in the water, would I have jumped in?" The answer is always the same. Fifty-fifty.
58:37 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
58:38 Karen Kilgariff? Fifty-fifty.
58:39 Georgia Hardstark? Maybe.
58:40 Karen Kilgariff? I think that's really honest.
58:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, my first instinct wasn't to save people completely.
58:45 Karen Kilgariff? That's what a big deal my, what my brother did was.
58:47 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
58:47 Karen Kilgariff? Which is really cool.
58:48 Georgia Hardstark? Generous, very generous.
58:49 Karen Kilgariff? It's Ottoman Armenia, so it's cold outside and the water's freezing. On top of that, Lake Yerevan is polluted.
58:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
58:57 Karen Kilgariff? This reservoir is not a place where most people would willingly swim.
59:01 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
59:03 Karen Kilgariff? But the brothers aren't thinking about that. They can see the trolley pole sticking out of the lake, so they know where the trolley bus is underwater.
59:10 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
59:10 Karen Kilgariff? So they dive down and they start circling it, looking for some sort of entrance that they can pull people out of. But all the windows and doors are shut. None of them are broken.
59:21 Georgia Hardstark? No.
59:21 Karen Kilgariff? Only seconds have passed since the crash, but already, of course, time is running out. When the brothers come back up for air, Shavarsh instructs Kamo to stay at the surface while he goes back under. He figures Kamo will be safer, but he can also call for help if Shavarsh himself gets stuck or runs out of energy and needs to be rescued. Then he dives back down to the trolley bus, and despite all the silt making the water murky, he somehow manages to find the back window. And when he does, he, quote, "brought his legs to his chest and thrust his left leg through the window with what he describes as, quote, a karate kick."
59:58 Georgia Hardstark? Can you imagine being in there and, like, through the silt, suddenly you see this probably handsome fucking guy?
1:00:05 Karen Kilgariff? You want to see?
1:00:05 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:00:06 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, he's very handsome.
1:00:09 Karen Kilgariff? Coming to save the day in the water. It's like, hi. Hi. He's cute. Hi, how are you? I'd love to save you in my small bathing suit. I would love that, too. And my beefy chest. Such a beefy chest. That's a man that's been running around with weights on his body. Yeah, save the day. And then that, what a face. Sweet little face. What a face. Yeah, so it's a hot guy kicking in the window. Hell, yeah. Hell, yes. So this kick works. He breaks in. He also slices his leg in the process. Just part of it. So he has this huge gash on his leg, but he's now created a six-foot-wide opening in this trolley bus window. Without being able to really see, he starts feeling
1:00:51 Karen Kilgariff? around for bodies before pulling someone through the window and then surfacing with them. Shivash hands that survivor over to his brother, who now is able to bring them to some first responders who have just rowed out on kayaks. Oh. And then Shivash immediately heads back down. He moves unbelievably fast for someone who has just run 13 miles with 45 pounds of sand struck his back. Sure, or like, not at all. Like, he moves fast for a person. Just for one, just for one of us. So he swims back down to the opening and grabs another person, brings them up to his brother, goes back down, grabs another, and so on. He then realizes when he first comes up out of that area, he can swim above the roof
1:01:34 Karen Kilgariff? and then push off from the roof and basically launch himself up to the surface way faster. So he starts doing it that way. He also pulled the glass of that six-foot window out by hand. Oh. So he made it so that no one else would Yeah. cut themselves the way he cut himself. Oh, my God. So now there's a crowd gathered to watch this harrying rescue mission play out. And one of the men in the crowd is Shivash's father Vladimir. No way. Who was also coincidentally just in the area when the trolley bus went into the lake. He is so stunned to realize that the men in the water are his two sons. He later says, quote, "I thought to myself, it's a good thing I made sure they learned how to swim."
1:02:13 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Sorry, I love Armenian style. They're so like, they don't get riled up. Yeah, yeah. They're not extra. No. They're real. That's so true. He's not like, "Those are my boys." He's not bragging. He's just like, "Wow, thank God we've got those swim lessons going." Love it. Vladimir will later recall how tense and anxious these onlookers were. Of course, they have no idea who Shavarsh actually is. At one point, he doesn't resurface after a minute or two, and there is a palpable feeling in the crowd that he might have drowned mid-rescue. Aye. Vladimir says, quote, "When he finally came up, there was a massive communal sigh of relief." I'm like holding my breath right now. I know.
1:02:55 Karen Kilgariff? So down below, Shavarsh is still moving very fast with no time to be diligent or to think about what he's doing. At one point, he grabs what he thinks is a person, but realizes upon surfacing that it's a seat cushion. Oh, no. It pains him very much, and he will later say, quote, "That cost one life." Oh. Only a few minutes have passed since this bus actually went into the water, and Shavarsh has already pulled dozens of bodies through that one broken window. We don't know the exact number, but it's estimated that he saves around 20 people. Wow, holy shit. 20 people, one guy. But as precious seconds pass, Shavarsh realizes there are no survivors left. Oh. So in addition to the 20 people he saves,
1:03:39 Karen Kilgariff? he recovers the bodies of around 15 victims. And he keeps doing it even though it's hopeless. Oh. Yep. He winds down his rescue mission, but he doesn't rest. Cranes have just arrived at Lake Yerevan to lift the trolley bus out of the water, basically to get the rest of the bodies up out of the water. But the crane operators need to figure out how to wrap the crane's cables around the trolley to get it out. It's a dangerous job, but Shavarsh and his brother Kommo do it. No, you guys have done enough. They're like, "Don't anybody else get in this water." Yeah. "Let it just be us." Basically, Shavarsh has to take a crowbar underwater, break out more windows, and then thread the cables through those broken windows
1:04:21 Karen Kilgariff? by swimming through them through the cab of the trolley bus. Where there's like bodies. Yep. And they kind of can't see. Oh, God. And I'm sure he didn't clear out the broken glass. I mean, it's just he's doing it himself. And ultimately, he's successful. The cranes are able to lift the trolley bus from the water, and the rest of the victims' bodies are recovered. When Shavarshe is finally about to get out of the lake, all of this exertion has taken a real toll on him, plus the polluted water. His legs start shaking, his vision gets spotty. So his father Vladimir takes him home and urges him to rest. But Shavarshe's condition gets worse. His fever spikes at 104 degrees. He gets delirious, he starts convulsing.
1:05:06 Karen Kilgariff? Because he's got that cut, and then the pollution went in it. Yes, horrifying. And also, the sheer trauma of what he basically got himself into and then had to continue doing. Totally. That's just him by himself with those, with both survivors, but then bodies. That's too much. No. Okay, so he's taken to the hospital, where he's diagnosed with a severe case of pneumonia. He's pumped with the antibiotics, and he has to spend the next three weeks confined to a hospital bed. Years later, one of Shavarshe's doctors will talk about how close of a call this was. And they'll say, quote, "To be honest, I was surprised that we were able to save his life from that infection." "It was the healthy system of an athlete that fought.
1:05:50 Karen Kilgariff? And after he fought for the lives of others, God now gave him the strength to fight for his own life." So, all of this happens, and he goes to the hospital. He's basically in the hospital for about a month. And essentially, the people that were there and watched it happen know about it, and so that gets talked about. But most people in Yerevan don't know about the trolley bus accident, and they certainly don't know about Shavarshe's heroic response to it. Although the local government has given him and Kamo 48 rubles, the equivalent of a quarter of the typical monthly wage at the time. And that's all they get. Even though it's an incredible newsworthy story, no outlets pick it up. It seems very intentional,
1:06:33 Karen Kilgariff? because it's basically about a tragic infrastructure failure. And the Soviets don't want people hearing about that. Even the official report that documents the trolley bus crash is classified. But Shavarshe didn't do it for attention or for glory. And actually, when he marries his wife Nellie later on, he never tells her about it. What? He never tells her. Oh, my God. Dude. I know, right? He got bragging rights. Like, you earned them. You earned it. Chivash feels like he has more pressing concerns. He's supposed to be working on his big comeback for the Finn swimming team.
1:07:12 Georgia Hardstark? You did it. That was your comeback.
1:07:14 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, yeah. Just three weeks after leaving the hospital, he goes back to training. So he's in the hospital for almost a month.
1:07:21 Georgia Hardstark? That's insane.
1:07:22 Karen Kilgariff? Basically takes a month of like getting his strength back and now he's back. Well, it was much harder for him at that point. He says, quote, "When I started heavy training, I couldn't handle it. Mucus was coming up from my lungs. I was coughing all the time."
1:07:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, you had pneumonia.
1:07:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:07:37 Georgia Hardstark? Like, less than a month ago.
1:07:38 Karen Kilgariff? Put the sandbag down, buddy. Chivash also finds himself getting very tense when he has to be in water.
1:07:45 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, shit.
1:07:46 Karen Kilgariff? Which is understandable because of the trauma. But he is so eager to prove himself to the Soviet sports officials. He pushes through all of that fear and pain and trauma. And just a few months later, in the spring of 1977, he makes it to the Soviet championship games once again, this time in Baku, Azerbaijan, your favorite country.
1:08:09 Georgia Hardstark? I love it there.
1:08:11 Karen Kilgariff? Azerbaijan was the reference country at the first writing job I ever had. Somebody very smart and funny made that reference. And then I was just like, that's a country.
1:08:21 Georgia Hardstark? So now you know, like, you really, really know that one.
1:08:23 Karen Kilgariff? I really know it.
1:08:25 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
1:08:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. I would never reference it because I don't know anything about it and I can't pronounce it. Except for that the 1977 Soviet championship games were there.
1:08:34 Georgia Hardstark? Which you've always known.
1:08:35 Karen Kilgariff? Which I've always known because I'm a big fan of Soviet championship games. Chivash is up against powerhouse Soviet swimmers. Two of his competitors have set world records. But he's here on a mission to prove himself to be the best Finn swimmer in the USSR. And when he hears the starting gunfire, he leaps from the platform, he dives into the water, and as he puts it, quote, "I swam to the death. I never raced so angry before." And in this race, the now 24-year-old Shavarsh sets a new world record.
1:09:08 Georgia Hardstark? Damn, fucking swim angry. That's what we're learning here.
1:09:11 Karen Kilgariff? Swim angry, baby. Gotta do it. Get in there and really want it. Later that year, at the European Championship Games, he'll win four more medals, three silvers and a gold. Almost no one in the crowd has any idea that less than a year before, this champion almost died saving the lives of 20 people. It's not until the early 80s, when a reporter named Sergey Leskov, covering a swimming competition in Moscow, hears about champion Armenian fin swimmer, who once quietly saved 20 people in Yerevan. And when Sergey brings the story back to his editor, he's immediately sent to Armenia to get the whole story and cover it all.
1:09:52 Karen Kilgariff? As Carl Schreck writes in his, I just realized that Carl Schreck's last name is Shrek.
1:09:57 Georgia Hardstark? You just realized that?
1:09:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, I'm just reading it because it's spelt with a C-H.
1:10:01 Georgia Hardstark? I've been hearing Shrek the whole time.
1:10:05 Karen Kilgariff? He's just got a very light green complexion.
1:10:07 Georgia Hardstark? I was thinking, the first time he said it, I was like, oh, that had to suck, that moment that that movie came out.
1:10:11 Karen Kilgariff? Had to.
1:10:12 Georgia Hardstark? I just was like, oh, no.
1:10:13 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no, it's me, Carl Schreck.
1:10:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, forever.
1:10:17 Karen Kilgariff? Will you marry me, princess? No? Sounds good. Carl Schreck, please write in if you're good-looking.
1:10:27 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so this writer who wrote the piece for Grantland, The Plunge, Carl Schreck says, quote, "It's unclear why local authorities decided to hand over documents about the accident to Leskov after keeping it quiet for so long. Perhaps they feared repercussions from Moscow if they stonewalled a leading national paper's attempt to publish an ideologically sound lionization of a Soviet athlete." So maybe it's like now he, Shavarsh, has legitimized himself in the story.
1:10:56 Georgia Hardstark? He's earned the right to brag about the thing he did.
1:10:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:11:00 Georgia Hardstark? Got it.
1:11:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Regardless, in October of 1982, the story runs in this one Soviet newspaper under the headline, quote, "A Champion's Underwater Battle." Mind you, it implies that Chavarsh saved everyone on the trolley bus, which I think that happens in stories like that. And it also does not list the names of the victims. But this amazing Armenian hero is finally getting his long overdue recognition. So word spreads throughout the USSR. And one year later, in 1983, the most prominent newspaper in the Soviet Union picks up this story and spotlights Chavarsh in a lengthy article. It has a very wide reach. And for many of the people Chavarsh has saved,
1:11:45 Karen Kilgariff? this is the first time they've ever learned his name.
1:11:48 Georgia Hardstark? Cause like, yeah.
1:11:50 Karen Kilgariff? It all went under wraps.
1:11:51 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
1:11:51 Karen Kilgariff? So they were like, "A guy got me out." All these other people died.
1:11:55 Georgia Hardstark? And they're like, we don't know.
1:11:56 Karen Kilgariff? We don't know who he is. And they find out not only he's him, but he's like this gold medal winning swimmer.
1:12:02 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
1:12:03 Karen Kilgariff? Oh. This is also the first time Chavarsh's wife, Nellie, learns about her husband saving 20 lives.
1:12:09 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, honey, how do you think that went? I read the newspaper today and is there something that you've been meaning to like? Tell me?
1:12:18 Karen Kilgariff? Whatever you need. Whatever you need or want to communicate to me or not communicate to me. Do it.
1:12:24 Georgia Hardstark? Cause you're so hot.
1:12:24 Karen Kilgariff? Never speak to me again. Smoke cigarettes in the pavilion's parking lot all day long. About a month after that article runs, the USSR awards Chavarsh the first of many medals recognizing his courage. And over time, he becomes a verifiable legend across the region. Finally, the press allows him, or the, you know, the powers that be allow him to get this credit that he so rightly deserves. But he's not going to stop there. Because 10 years after the trolley bus accident in 1985, a fire breaks out at a Yerevan arena. And Chavarsh bursts into the burning building,
1:13:05 Karen Kilgariff? shoulder to shoulder with the firefighters, helping to look for survivors.
1:13:10 Georgia Hardstark? Is he in a speedo?
1:13:11 Karen Kilgariff? I mean.
1:13:12 Georgia Hardstark? Cause that would be.
1:13:13 Karen Kilgariff? He's got one fin on his back. We don't know much more about the details of that scenario. We just know that he went in, he suffers burns in the process. But afterwards, he will nonchalantly say, quote, "Anyone can find himself in a place where somebody needs help and more than wants to. The main thing is to remember what makes you human." Ugh, amazing. He's like, "I'm fine with whatever kinds of rescues I have to do." Shivash becomes such an important cultural figure that during the 2014 Winter Games in Sochi, he was asked to carry the Olympic torch into the Kremlin. Damn. And you might remember him doing it because on his last leg of the journey, the flame
1:13:57 Karen Kilgariff? kept going out while he was running. And at one point, he actually stopped and asked a security guard to relight it with the Zippo. I remember that. That's, that's our boy. Dude, he's like, "I can get things done." He's like, "What's going on?" But also, I kind of remember that guy and being like, everybody else was, looked like a runner, looked like whatever. And Shivash looks like older guy. Yeah. Running. At that point, he was probably in his 60s, I think. So today, Shivash is around 70 years old. He lives in Moscow. And while many years have passed since he dove into the reservoir, he has since become quite the entrepreneur. Shortly after moving to Moscow, he opened a shoe repair shop.
1:14:40 Karen Kilgariff? It did so well that over the years, he opened several more businesses, including restaurants, clothing, and grocery stores. Damn. I mean, just doing it. Yeah. And I wonder if it's because people are like, "That guy's great. I want to get my shoes." Totally. From that guy. I trust that guy. Yeah. I'd like to just go talk to him a little bit. Yeah. In his 2014 Grantland piece, Carl Schreck asks about the night that made Shivash a legend. And what Shivash says about it is simply, quote, "There was no other choice. I knew that it wouldn't be right if the world's fastest underwater swimmer was there and didn't even try to help. Nature and humanity would have judged me. God probably would have judged me." And that's the story of Armenian hero Shavarsh Karapetyan.
1:15:24 Karen Kilgariff? Wow. Damn, a good one.
1:15:29 Georgia Hardstark? That's a good one, right? Yeah, a disaster, a hero, like, yeah, that was good. A backup, humility, people that aren't doing it for the glory. What about his brother? Is he okay? I mean. Did he get any fucking cred? It doesn't sound like it. Man, the younger siblings, we never get the fucking. You stay over there. Yeah. I'm in charge. You stay over there and I'll hand you the people.
1:15:56 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, good episode, I think. Great episode, yeah. And a couple honking hurrahs at the end. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming. You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call. Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care. Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues. That's why there's Solace Health. Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast. Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.
1:16:38 Georgia Hardstark? They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations. Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate. Advocacy improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide. Eligibility varies by insurance plan. Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older. Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify. It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance. That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray. Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and
1:17:22 Georgia Hardstark? natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest. If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bed. Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast drying formula. Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed. I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep. And the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy. And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want? How dare you call my feet stinky.
1:18:08 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception, his mom. To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives. But for Sonny, he knows something is off. As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger. Is this all in his head or is there really an imposter in his house? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface. Watch the Hulu original series Phony.
1:18:53 Georgia Hardstark? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Goodbye.
1:18:58 Speaker 04 Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching, totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.
1:19:37 Georgia Hardstark? We're back with another Honking Hooray, presented by Hyundai.
1:19:40 Karen Kilgariff? We're so excited to be doing your hoorays and in the IONIQ 5.
1:19:45 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
1:19:46 Karen Kilgariff? What a combination.
1:19:47 Georgia Hardstark? You want to go first?
1:19:48 Karen Kilgariff? Sure.
1:19:48 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. Can't contain my excitement listening to you ladies talk about TV weather people.
1:19:54 Karen Kilgariff? Nor should you. Get, get out here and hooray it up.
1:19:57 Georgia Hardstark? As a weatherino, I was beaming with pride. You ladies were with me through the worst breakup of my life and now I'm getting married to the L O M L, love of my life.
1:20:07 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, nice. Okay, good, good, good.
1:20:08 Georgia Hardstark? Hooray for science and love. Felicia Combs, and that's on Instagram.
1:20:14 Karen Kilgariff? Congratulations, Felicia. Congratulations.
1:20:17 Georgia Hardstark? Weatherinos.
1:20:18 Karen Kilgariff? The weatherinos are behind us.
1:20:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
1:20:21 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, this says, "Hooray from New Zealand." It's an email. Dear MFM, been a faithful listener since 2016, which is the same year that I met my partner, so you can never stop podcasting because that's how I keep track of how long we've been together. My hooray is that I was misled about teenagers. I have two of them, coming up to 18 and 16 years old in August, a boy and a girl, respectively. That I love the bones of them is a given, but expecting their teenage years to be sullen, smelly, ornery, and unpleasant was a complete misdirect. Instead, I find that I'm living with two smart, funny, curious, insightful, independent, affectionate young people. They are fiercely loyal, roast me daily in ways that I can only admire, and constantly make me see things from a different perspective. Their friends are a gas.
1:21:06 Karen Kilgariff? I get to listen to new music, so I've never said kids these days don't know what music is. A phrase that indicates your readiness to be checked into a home for the elderly because, because they get into retro as well. I get to relive my own teenagehood by listening to everything from Guns N' Roses to TLC in the car. That was like MTV in 1997. Of course, there are challenges, but I certainly did not expect the sheer joy of having teenagers in my life. Stay sexy and sing along to November Rain.
1:21:40 Karen Kilgariff? Rashni from Aotearoa, New Zealand.
1:21:45 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, teenagers.
1:21:46 Karen Kilgariff? Someone cool stepping up and saying, "Give teenagers a break."
1:21:51 Georgia Hardstark? Finally.
1:21:52 Karen Kilgariff? Finally.
1:21:53 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, this is an email that says, "Hooray, my daughter is completing her first week being back at school after having a two-kilogram tumor removed from her chest."
1:22:04 Karen Kilgariff? What?
1:22:04 Georgia Hardstark? She's six years old and is a murderino in the making. She's been through two ten-hour surgeries and has maintained her sunny disposition with just the right amount of sass." And it says, "To her brother, when he couldn't find something, well, how about looking for it with your eyes open?"
1:22:19 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh, damn.
1:22:21 Georgia Hardstark? "Hurrah to the NHS UK and the amazing staff at the Bristol Children's Hospital. From Rachel, she/her, Anne B., six, ball of joy, XO."
1:22:33 Karen Kilgariff? Stay strong, Bee.
1:22:34 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you, Bee.
1:22:35 Karen Kilgariff? And to everybody at the Bristol Children's Hospital, man.
1:22:39 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing.
1:22:40 Karen Kilgariff? Just doing the Lord's work. Okay, here's an email, and it just says, "I just turned in my final capstone for my masters."
1:22:48 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know what a capstone is.
1:22:50 Karen Kilgariff? Of course, we don't know. "I'm a teacher, and I decided to get my masters in film analysis to teach film analysis one day. My capstone paper," maybe it's like thesis?
1:23:00 Georgia Hardstark? End of the...
1:23:02 Karen Kilgariff? It's a thesis in a different country?
1:23:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it is.
1:23:04 Karen Kilgariff? That's what we'll say it is. "My capstone paper, which was sixty pages, discussed the psychology of horror films. While the paper was fun to write, I'm so happy to be done with it. Hooray for never having to write an academic paper again, Justine."
1:23:19 Georgia Hardstark? Sixty pages.
1:23:20 Karen Kilgariff? Congratulations, Justine, you did it.
1:23:22 Georgia Hardstark? You did.
1:23:22 Karen Kilgariff? And you did it without AI.
1:23:24 Georgia Hardstark? Hopefully.
1:23:25 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, we don't know you, Justine. What are you doing?
1:23:28 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, here's one. This one says, "Hooray for Pedro Pascal."
1:23:34 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, hey.
1:23:35 Georgia Hardstark? "It could just start and end there, but seeing as the entire world has simultaneously fallen deeply in love with this man, it feels important to note the glimmer of hope. I feel in so many of us, all genders, devoting all of our parasocial desires to a man who challenges every function of toxic masculinity in our culture. If all of us can love a man who is hell-bent on protecting our trans community, is resisting systems of oppression on the daily, is constantly being lovingly snuggled by other healthy, handsome men in his life, and is the living embodiment of a human cinnamon roll, I..."
1:24:09 Georgia Hardstark? I think that speaks to the changing zeitgeist for how we define sexiness and healthy masculinity. Yay for Pedro Pascal being all of our daddies. And hooray for those arms.
1:24:22 Karen Kilgariff? Dang.
1:24:23 Georgia Hardstark? Stay sexy and keep loving the Pedros of the world at LaurenOscapi.
1:24:29 Karen Kilgariff? Lauren, I think that that comparison, that he is a human cinnamon roll, is one of the most perfect things I've ever heard.
1:24:35 Georgia Hardstark? He is all of our daddies.
1:24:37 Karen Kilgariff? What big good are you?
1:24:38 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my gosh. I'm a Danish.
1:24:41 Karen Kilgariff? Clearly Danish. OK, well, I have a celebrity one, too. This was from the email, and it just says, "I just passed Michelle Buteau on the street. I said nothing, because as a native New Yorker, I just let people be people, but I may have gazed at her longingly for half a beef." And then it just says, "Hooray," period. And then there's an asterisk at the end of, "I just let people be people." And then down here, the asterisk says, "This rule does not apply to any and all possible Pedro Pascal sightings."
1:25:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
1:25:12 Karen Kilgariff? This is so good. And that was from Amy Elizabeth Bravo.
1:25:16 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God, she's like the one, he's the one person that, yeah, that she's like, I can mob you.
1:25:21 Karen Kilgariff? We're not going to break this rule for Michelle Buteau, but we're definitely breaking it when that guy rolls up.
1:25:27 Georgia Hardstark? All Pedro Pascal bets are off.
1:25:29 Karen Kilgariff? First, you smell the cinnamon. And you're like, what is that? There's someone nearby.
1:25:34 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you, guys, for listening to these honking hurraes. Thank you, Hyundai, for sponsoring these honking hurraes.
1:25:39 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you, Hyundai.
1:25:40 Georgia Hardstark? And thank you to Pedro Pascal, especially.
1:25:42 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you to all cinnamon rolls everywhere. Stay sexy.
1:25:45 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered. Bye.
1:25:47 Karen Kilgariff? Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:25:56 Georgia Hardstark? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Scolaci. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin. Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:26:11 Karen Kilgariff? Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:26:14 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:26:19 Karen Kilgariff? And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.
1:26:24 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:26:32 Georgia Hardstark? Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal. With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search. You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder. Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips. Go to CheapCaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium. Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray. Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest. If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray part of your nighttime routine. Generously spritz each foot before bed
1:27:16 Georgia Hardstark? and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything. Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works. Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's Magnesium Spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye. In the summer, healthy habits are easy to keep, until you leave the house. You walk out the door and the next thing you know, you're barefoot and feral in a gas station candy aisle. That's why Kachava makes it easy to maintain your routines. Kachava is an all-in-one nutrition shake and now it comes in new travel packs. Every packet gives you a simple shake with protein, fiber, vitamins and minerals, greens, probiotics, omegas, electrolytes, and more. They're easy to toss into a bag, easy to take on the road, and a simple way to stick with your normal wellness habits
1:28:01 Georgia Hardstark? even when your schedule changes. Man, that Kachava matcha in the individual packs is like my dream snack. It's exactly what I need and want in between the like, not great meals I'm eating for lunch and the snacks I would have had anyways that are terrible for me. Like, this is something I feel like I'm treating myself when I take. You're treating yourself to vitamins, fiber, all these things that your body really wants and needs and kind of craves that it does seem like it takes a big effort to get. So now you're getting it all in one packet and in a little drink you like. Take your daily ritual with you. Go to kachava.com and use code MFM for 15% off your first order. That's kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A.com, code MFM. Goodbye.
Previous Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 60: Jazz It Next MFM Minisode 452 Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated