Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark Bonus Episode - Presented by Hyundai About this episode On today’s bonus episode, Georgia covers Georgia Gilmore and the Club From Nowhere and Karen tells the story of the Rochambelles.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:06 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone loves the idea of spending an afternoon curled up with a good book.
0:10 Karen Kilgariff? Well, grow up because it's almost impossible.
0:12 Georgia Hardstark? Luckily, you can take your next great story with you on Audible.
0:15 Karen Kilgariff? Audible has a massive selection of titles to choose from, including This American Life, new books by Michael Connelly, along with classics from Magathah Christie, and so much more.
0:24 Georgia Hardstark? Whether you want a mystery, a true crime story, or something completely different, there's always something new to listen to.
0:29 Karen Kilgariff? New members can start listening with a 30-day free trial at audible.com/mfm.
0:34 Georgia Hardstark? Audible, stories that speak to you.
0:36 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
0:54 Karen Kilgariff? Hello. And welcome.
0:58 Georgia Hardstark? To my favorite murder.
0:59 Karen Kilgariff? Special bonus episode.
1:01 Georgia Hardstark? This is a special bonus. You didn't do anything, but we're giving it to you anyway.
1:06 Karen Kilgariff? You deserve it. It's presented by Hyundai.
1:09 Georgia Hardstark? And it's because we like you so much and Hyundai likes you so much, so we're giving you this special content, guys.
1:14 Karen Kilgariff? What's more exciting than more stories?
1:16 Georgia Hardstark? It's more, more, more, more. Because it's presented by Hyundai, we're doing stories that kind of like revolve around a car.
1:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:23 Georgia Hardstark? Or a vehicle being the hero of the story. So I think we've... I've got a good one. I hope you do, too. All right, well, let's get into this bonus episode, shall we?
1:30 Karen Kilgariff? Let's do it.
1:31 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, I'm first.
1:32 Karen Kilgariff? You're first on any bonus episode.
1:35 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. Okay. I'm gonna tell you a story today, Karen. It's about a pivotal role that cars played in none other than the Montgomery Bus Boycott.
1:47 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, well, yes. It's right there in the title.
1:50 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:51 Georgia Hardstark? And the Montgomery Bus Boycott's success was dependent on the action and dedication of many individuals, of course. But today, we're gonna focus on the work of one of those people in particular, a woman in her 30s. Yes, I love her name. It's Georgia Gilmore.
2:07 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yes. Okay.
2:09 Georgia Hardstark? So the main sources for the story are an interview with Georgia Gilmore from the 1987 documentary Eyes on the Prize, a book called Driving While Black by Gretchen Soren, and Georgia Gilmore's obituary in The New York Times, which was published decades after her death as part of an effort to recognize important historical figures that were previously not acknowledged enough. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So let's begin. In Montgomery, Alabama, December of 1955, what a time and place. As most of us know and should know, a 42-year-old seamstress named Rosa Parks refuses to give up her seat on a public bus for a white passenger. And Montgomery buses, of course, were racially segregated and Black patrons were required to stand
2:54 Georgia Hardstark? if a white person wanted to take their seat. And Black people were also barred from becoming bus drivers. And all of this was in spite of the fact that Black people had made up at least 75% of ridership on Montgomery's public buses. And so we've spoken about the Montgomery bus boycott at length before, especially in your story about Claudette Colvin, the teenager who refused to give up her seat.
3:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
3:15 Georgia Hardstark? And that's episode number 402. If anyone wants to listen to it, it's incredible. Karen did a great job.
3:21 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
3:23 Georgia Hardstark? So when the bus boycott kicks off in 1955, this woman, Georgia Gilmore, is a 35-year-old mother of four. Ultimately, she'll have six kids, but she has four at the time. She's lived in Montgomery as a Black woman all her life, so she has experienced all the racism there. She's worked as a midwife on a railroad and a domestic worker. By 1955, Georgia is the head cook at a cafeteria called The National Cafe, which serves only white people. She lives with her mother and also helps take care of her youngest sister, as well as multiple nieces and nephews. And she's just generally known as a caring, motherly figure in her community. And because of that, she earns the affectionate nickname Big Mama. But above all of this, above her caring, above her nurturing,
4:06 Georgia Hardstark? she is known for her outrageously delicious cooking.
4:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
4:11 Georgia Hardstark? At all times, people are angling to get invited to Georgia's house for a meal. So during this time, Georgia has already been privately boycotting the Montgomery buses for months on her own, because in October of 1955, Georgia had boarded a bus, put her coins in the fare box, and had probably been screamed at by the white bus driver that she needed to board from the back of the bus. And so she complies, because she has to. But when she gets off the bus to go around to the back, the bus driver shuts the doors and takes off, even though she had already paid. So she's just like, over it already. So she just vows to never get back on the public bus in Montgomery. And then three
4:53 Georgia Hardstark? months later, the official boycott actually begins. So again, as we know from the Claudette Colvin story, the boycott had been brewing over the course of months. On December 5, 1955, right after Rosa Parks is arrested, and after a successful one day boycott of the buses, a group called the Montgomery Improvement Association calls a meeting. And the group is an offshoot of two other groups, the NAACP's Local Chapter, and a group called the Women's Political Council. About 5,000 people wind up showing up to this meeting. This famous meeting, it's held at the Holt Street Baptist Church. The entire sanctuary and the entire basement are both packed, and there are loudspeakers outside for the massive overflow of the crowd. And at this meeting, it is resolved that the
5:35 Georgia Hardstark? then 26-year-old Martin Luther King Jr. is going to lead the Montgomery Improvement Association. His family's somewhat new in town, and he's the pastor of another church, and it's also resolved that there's going to be a long-term boycott of the Montgomery public buses. That is a very short summary of stuff that we should all study.
5:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, that years and years of building up to that moment. But also, what a brilliant move. And it's the kind of thing that people are now doing again today. So effectively, it were just like, you absolutely, the boycotts and voting with your dollar and all those things. Like, it's all we have. It's simulating anymore.
6:16 Georgia Hardstark? The money talks, you know?
6:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
6:18 Georgia Hardstark? And this is pivotal to Georgia. At the meeting, it is also established that anyone who has access to a car will help shuttle people to and from their jobs. So they don't have to ride the bus because they still need to get to their jobs and then get fired. Right. Of course. Dr. King says, quote, "We're putting cabs there at your service. Automobiles will be at your service." So among the thousands of people at this meeting is our own Georgia Gilmore, who hears Dr. King's words and immediately springs into action. She establishes a group that will sell baked goods to raise money for gas and to buy additional cars for this elaborate carpool system. That will keep the boycott alive. The group is made up of women like Georgia who all cook for the cause.
7:01 Georgia Hardstark? In order to avoid being targeted by angry white neighbors, Georgia avoids giving the group an identifiable name that could give an idea of their identity or location. So she simply calls the group "The Club From Nowhere." Smart. Yeah, right. The club sells peach pies, pound cakes, and when people are very lucky, Georgia's fried chicken sandwiches. And they sell them at beauty parlors, at taxi stands, at laundromats, stores, churches, and cleverly outside whites-only cafeterias like the one she works at. Every week, the club takes in about $150, which is close to $1,800 in today's money. Wow.
7:39 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. This can fill more than 30 cars with gas every week, or it can be put toward maintenance or the purchase of additional cars. And I guess I had never thought about how pivotal outside transportation would be during the bus boycott. You don't boycott the bus and stop going to work. No. You know, the Montgomery Improvement Association meets every Monday, and at each of these meetings, Georgia hands over the cash to a standing ovation from the crowd. At the same time, black-owned taxis carry boycotters to work for 10 cents, which is the same cost as a bus ride. But then the city cracks down on this, forbidding them from charging anything less than 45 cents per ride, which the boycotters can't afford.
8:23 Georgia Hardstark? It's which is the point, right? So activists from northern states donate 15 station wagons to black churches since cars donated to churches are harder for the state to seize than those donated to individuals. Wow. So these cars get nicknamed "rolling churches." A black farmers association donates land for parking all of these shared vehicles. And while white owned insurance companies refuse to insure the cars, a black insurance agent in Montgomery gets a policy set up with Lloyds of London.
8:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
8:52 Georgia Hardstark? So everyone is just doing what they can to work around these racist, you know, institutions. So three months into the boycott, in January of 1956, Martin Luther King Jr. is arrested for the first time ostensibly for driving 30 miles per hour in a 25 mile per hour zone, which of course, that's not the reason.
9:12 Karen Kilgariff? It's the old broken taillight of.
9:14 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
9:15 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
9:15 Georgia Hardstark? The real reason he's arrested is because he was driving boycotters to work at the time. And during that week, Montgomery police have begun specifically targeting these car pools. When Dr. King is indicted, 80 people testify on his behalf, and Georgia is one of them. As a consequence of this, she gets fired from her job at the whites only cafeteria. And Dr. King advises Georgia to go into business for herself. Cooking for people out of her home, he and the Montgomery Improv and Association give her some money to equip her kitchen. So Georgia's home restaurant becomes wildly successful. People line up for lunch and dinner and they'll even eat standing up if there's no room to sit down because they just want her incredible food.
9:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
9:58 Georgia Hardstark? The specialties are fried or baked chicken, there's fried fish, there's liver, collard greens, turnips, you know, beans, potato salad, candied yams. And for a little extra, you can also get a slice of sweet potato pie. So just that classic southern cuisine that I freaking.
10:14 Karen Kilgariff? It's the best.
10:15 Georgia Hardstark? My favorite.
10:16 Karen Kilgariff? It's the best.
10:17 Georgia Hardstark? But in addition to providing for Georgia herself and her family, the restaurant serves another important purpose. It's a secure meeting location for Dr. King and other activists to gather and discuss plans without worries of being overheard by the wrong people, you know, like in a public place. This is important because as the boycott wears on, Montgomery's segregationists grow increasingly hostile. Georgia says they would often yell slurs at her when she walked around the city, but she says that she would yell right back at them.
10:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
10:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. But for those security reasons and because Georgia's food is incomparable, Dr. King often brings visiting dignitaries to Georgia's house for dinner. So she feeds future presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson.
11:00 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
11:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, in her home. While this is going on, the Club From Nowhere keeps chugging along, selling food and baked goods around Montgomery, often to white people who have no idea that they're helping to fund the bus boycott.
11:14 Karen Kilgariff? Perfection.
11:15 Georgia Hardstark? I love it.
11:16 Karen Kilgariff? Because you cannot, like, at the end of the day, good food is undeniable.
11:22 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So with the help of the Club From Nowhere, the Montgomery Improvement Association's fleet of cars winds up swelling to 300 vehicles, which sustains the boycott for over a year.
11:34 Karen Kilgariff? Brilliant.
11:34 Georgia Hardstark? I didn't know. I just always imagined people boycotting and protesting, not continuing on with their lives in any way necessary, which was the need for vehicles and transportation.
11:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. I mean, like, this took an entire, very-
11:49 Georgia Hardstark? Organized.
11:50 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. Intricate plan.
11:52 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
11:53 Karen Kilgariff? So good.
11:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And so, again, 75% of the city buses ridership had been black, and a huge portion of that had been black women, who often had jobs of domestic workers in neighborhoods far from their own. So Georgia says, quote, "They were maids and cooks. They were the ones that really and truly kept the bus running. After the maids and cooks stopped riding the bus, well, the bus didn't have any need to run," end quote. Just, yeah, you've got to show them with the money. It's the only thing they listen to. At the end of 1956, the city of Montgomery files a lawsuit against the Montgomery Improvement Association, saying they've been illegally operating an unlicensed taxi business. But right around that very same time, the Supreme Court upholds a district court ruling
12:39 Georgia Hardstark? that had found that the segregation of city buses was unconstitutional. And again, that story's covered by you, Karen, in episode 402. The boycott comes to an end in December of 1956, after 381 days, and buses in Montgomery and in other cities are desegregated. Two years later, in 1957, Georgia's family personally sues the city of Montgomery after her son, Mark, is beaten by police and arrested for being in a whites-only public park. This ultimately results in the desegregation of parks in Montgomery, and Mark, her son, goes on to serve in Montgomery's city government.
13:17 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
13:17 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Georgia says that she probably wouldn't have learned how to drive if it weren't for the bus boycott. After it ends, she says, quote, "I was able to save enough money to buy a car, and then I was really a big shot because I felt I'd come up in the world."
13:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. There's no better feeling than when you have your own car.
13:35 Georgia Hardstark? Cars in general played a big role, as we're learning, in the greater civil rights movement. The author Gretchen Soren, whose book is one of the main sources for the story, says, quote, "The automobile gave African Americans freedom from humiliation and the ability to go where they wanted to go, when they wanted to go," end quote. In 1961, the Freedom Riders challenged segregation on interstate buses, and Georgia hosts many of them in her home, sheltering them from violent segregationists, and of course, feeding them as well. Georgia passes away at the age of 70 in 1990 while she's preparing food for a celebration to mark the 25th anniversary of the Selma to Montgomery March. In her
14:16 Georgia Hardstark? late 60s, Georgia had been featured in the 1987 civil rights documentary Eyes on the Prize, which is the source of her quotes in this story. In her interview, she says, quote, "You cannot be afraid if you want to accomplish anything. You've got to have the willing, the spirit, and above all, you've got to have the get up," end quote. And that is the story of Georgia Gilmore and the club from nowhere and the women who helped drive the Montgomery bus boycott.
14:44 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yes.
14:45 Georgia Hardstark? Right?
14:46 Karen Kilgariff? Love it.
14:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
14:48 Karen Kilgariff? Also, it's so important to hear these stories of people who are just like, you're being threatened, people are screaming at you, and still, they just keep doing what they're doing. They stick to the plan. They clearly do it with some joy, throw some good food in there. Like, I don't know, that's such a, what a beautiful recipe for actually affecting change.
15:07 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. It's inspiring. The chutzpah. The chutzpah is chutzping.
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16:04 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, ready for my story? Yeah. It's a bit of a left turn. We're going to World War II. Okay. A thing that I love to do. It's kind of interesting that, you know, to do a little theme and to be like, oh, the theme is cars. And Maren found this story, and it's about ambulances. Hmm. I don't know if you knew that ambulances have been around for centuries. The earliest one operated in 1480s Spain. I've never considered that. Right? But that's so interesting, yeah. Well, because you got to figure, we've always had war, so they've always needed ambulances. Yeah. Right? So in 1480s Spain, it was a simple two-wheeled, horse-drawn cart used to evacuate the wounded from battlefields.
16:47 Karen Kilgariff? During the American Civil War, sturdier four-wheeled, horse-drawn wagons became the standard. And then around the same time, in cities like Cincinnati and New York, they saw the very first hospital-affiliated ambulances. Again, pointing back to the Nick, remember the crooked ambulance driver? Yeah. They'd all like fight each other for... Totally. So, within a few decades, horses gave way to engines, of course, and by World War I, motorized ambulances were the norm. Men and women stepped up to drive them, often as civilian volunteers unaffiliated with any military. And they would drive them into active war zones to evacuate wounded and deliver supplies. Wow. That's one of my first date questions.
17:31 Karen Kilgariff? Have you ever been in an ambulance before? Yes, I have.
17:35 Georgia Hardstark? You have? I have too, but I was unconscious.
17:37 Karen Kilgariff? You were not? What did you do?
17:39 Georgia Hardstark? I had a seizure. You probably have the same thing.
17:41 Karen Kilgariff? It's same exact reason.
17:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
17:43 Karen Kilgariff? So for women who were not allowed to serve in combat roles, ambulance driving was the closest they could get to seeing action in World War I.
17:51 Georgia Hardstark? Interesting.
17:52 Karen Kilgariff? They weren't typically posted on the front lines. They certainly weren't integrated into any official military division. Those are of course, reserved for men. But today's story is centered on a group of courageous women dedicated on taking down Hitler. During World War II, they banded together to form an all-female ambulance corps, which became the first unit of its kind to join an official combat division on the Western Front. This is the story of the Rochambeau Group, best known by their nickname, the Rochambelles.
18:25 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
18:26 Karen Kilgariff? Right? Never heard of this.
18:28 Georgia Hardstark? Never.
18:29 Karen Kilgariff? So the main source used today is Ellen Hampton's book, Women of Valor: The Rochambelles on the World War II Front. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So this story starts in the late 1930s with a woman named Florence Conrad. She's a wealthy American widow in her early 50s. And she has basically moved to France and lived there for many, many years. She loves France. So when World War II breaks out in 1939, Florence is determined to help in any way she can. So she doesn't run back to the United States for safety. She actually ends up volunteering as an ambulance driver during Germany's brutal invasion.
19:09 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
19:09 Karen Kilgariff? But as tensions escalate and the US joins the war, Florence is forced to basically leave France. She knows as an American, she risks being arrested and detained by Germans.
19:20 Georgia Hardstark? For sure.
19:21 Karen Kilgariff? So she moves to New York City, where she decides to use her wealth and connections to form an all-women's ambulance corps to basically launch back in Europe.
19:31 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
19:32 Karen Kilgariff? Florence isn't the first wealthy woman to have this idea because back in World War I, many rich American and European benefactors, including several women, raised money to create and support volunteer ambulance corps. And many women drove those ambulances. The logic then was very simple. If women take over the driving duties, more men can be freed up for combat. But despite the brave service of female ambulance drivers in World War I, by the dawn of World War II, many men have convinced themselves women are too soft to serve in such violent, stressful environments. And various world militaries decide that ambulance drivers have to be men.
20:14 Karen Kilgariff? In fact, in the World War II era, military bureaucracy and tighter control over access to combat zones make it much more difficult for civilian volunteers, especially women, to serve in these same roles. But Florence doesn't care. So Florence quickly raises enough money to purchase 19 ambulances.
20:34 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
20:35 Karen Kilgariff? And then she also pulls in a partner, a French-American woman in her early 30s named Suzanne Torres, who goes by the nickname Toto. And Toto quickly becomes Florence's right-hand woman. Together, Florence and Toto start recruiting exclusively female ambulance drivers, eventually amassing a group of 12. Most of their recruits are young French nationals in their early 20s, desperately wanting to go home to France, stuck in the US because of war. So the recruits take Florence's ambulances out to the old world's fairgrounds in Flushing, Queens, and they practice driving them.
21:14 Georgia Hardstark? Nice.
21:14 Karen Kilgariff? They also learn basic auto mechanic skills, and they volunteer at a local hospital to learn the medical basics and first aid. Meanwhile, Florence and Toto realize the group could benefit from some good old-fashioned branding, so they start mulling over a good name, hoping to land on something that celebrates their Frenchness, but also that's recognizable to Americans. They decide on the Rochambeau Group, after the legendary general who led French troops to help the Americans during the American Revolution.
21:46 Georgia Hardstark? Huh, I didn't know that.
21:48 Karen Kilgariff? I had no idea. I just know Rochambeau is rock, paper, scissors.
21:52 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah.
21:53 Karen Kilgariff? It's based on a guy.
21:55 Georgia Hardstark? That makes sense now that you say that.
21:58 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, everything is. I mean, this is why people think history is interesting. I wish someone had told me this is why history is interesting.
22:06 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Anyhow, it's too late.
22:09 Karen Kilgariff? All the while-
22:10 Georgia Hardstark? It's too late for us.
22:10 Karen Kilgariff? It's too late to learn. All the while Florence is working to overcome the restrictive military bureaucracy. Unlike in World War I, for example, when volunteer ambulance corps operated more casually and with few bureaucratic hurdles, they still had to have the formal backing of an official military group before they could operate within war zones. Obviously, you can't just pull up and be like, "Look, I'll take care of this."
22:35 Georgia Hardstark? Hop in, yeah.
22:36 Karen Kilgariff? But kinda, I mean, it sounds like kind of because it was volunteer, you know? But none of that's gonna stop Florence. She makes it happen. The Rochambeau Group gets the endorsement of the DC outpost of the Free French Forces. And that's France's government in exile, led by Charles de Gaulle, is the French pronunciation.
22:54 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm, like the airport.
22:56 Karen Kilgariff? Just like the airport. The airport's a guy.
22:58 Georgia Hardstark? What a coincidence.
23:00 Karen Kilgariff? You know, O'Hare Airport.
23:02 Georgia Hardstark? We got Rochambeau, we got the guy.
23:04 Karen Kilgariff? We got de Gaulle. So, the Rochambeau Group and all of these vehicles are sent to a Free French outpost in Morocco. But shortly after arriving, they find themselves in limbo yet again. Ambulance drivers are desperately needed, but the problem is that no unit is willing to take these lady ambulance drivers in. Because the idea of women being integrated into an actual military unit is like inconceivable to them. Only men serve in those capacities. So without official assignment, the Rochambeau Group can't deploy to the front. They're just stuck on the sidelines. And obviously, this is discouraging, but the women haven't come this far just to give up.
23:49 Karen Kilgariff? They live on a houseboat in Morocco, waiting to join the fight. Where is that movie Elizabeth Banks? Get it going. The outfits, the lipstick, the bathing suits, the fucking chit chat, the cigarettes.
24:05 Georgia Hardstark? The makeouts.
24:07 Karen Kilgariff? The full makeouts. Oh, Happy Pride Month, everybody. Speaking of- Florence meanwhile is on the phone nonstop. She's pitching the Rochambeau Group to military powers that be, hoping they will just take a chance on them. This lady is the real deal.
24:22 Georgia Hardstark? Going for it, yeah.
24:23 Karen Kilgariff? And it works. She does it.
24:25 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
24:26 Karen Kilgariff? This time in a huge way. She manages to get ahold of General Philippe Leclerc. He's the leader of the French Second Armored Division, and he's a rising star in the Free French Forces. After hearing Florence's pitch, Leclerc is skeptical. And as Ellen Hampton writes, quote, "Women in an armored division!" Exclamation point. I should have said it like this. Women in armored division?
24:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
24:51 Karen Kilgariff? That's how she wrote it. General Leclerc had never heard of such a thing. He probably figured the women would cut and run at the first firefight. But ambulances driven by women were better than no ambulances at all. He relented. End quote. Isn't that, it's like, those are all the stories where it's like, oh, well, I guess we could do nothing, or we could, I guess, have women have a chance. God forbid.
25:14 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
25:14 Karen Kilgariff? So General Leclerc agrees to take the Rochambeau Group, but only temporarily. They can serve through the push to Paris, after which he will keep their ambulances and replace these women with male drivers.
25:27 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm, okay.
25:28 Karen Kilgariff? It's good enough for now. Florence is like, fine. All the women ditch the Moroccan houseboat and they head to Algeria for advanced training, joining an official French medical battalion in a massive allied camp that houses around 30,000 men.
25:43 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
25:44 Karen Kilgariff? But after recruiting 18 more drivers in Morocco, which brings the numbers of the Rochambeau Group up to 30, they are still a tiny group of women in this ocean of men. They endure regular harassment, of course, tons of condescension and bullshit from military men who just see them as a joke.
26:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:04 Karen Kilgariff? It's here, in this very masculine camp, that they become known as the Rochambelles. And over time, they come to embrace this nickname. And that is kind of what a lot of people know them as today. In May of 1944, after weeks of intense training in Algeria, the women of the Rochambeau Group get their first marching orders. They'll be traveling with General Leclerc's division to England to prepare for D-Day, the Allied invasion of Nazi-occupied France. Wow. Inevitably, sexism follows the women onto the transport ship where American officers refuse to let them board because in their minds and experience, women don't serve in military divisions, so there must be some sort of mistake. General Leclerc eventually
26:48 Karen Kilgariff? has to step in and tell them, quote, "They're not women, they're ambulance drivers." So two months after D-Day in August of 1944, the Rochambeau Group arrives at Utah Beach, and they begin to run their ambulances as the Allies push out of Normandy. For many of the women, this is their first time back in France since fleeing the Nazis, and they are overjoyed to be home. But the Battle of Normandy, as we know, is a particularly brutal one. Yeah. And they are now tasked with evacuating wounded soldiers, driving through bombed-out roads and through minefields, typically without maps or navigation of any kind, all while under fire. During one run, Florence drives 60 miles off course while searching for a
27:33 Karen Kilgariff? field hospital. She's not some rich American lady that's just like, "I'll buy you ambulances," she's doing it herself. Totally. Love it. The chaos is relentless. One night, German bombers hit an apple orchard where the women's ambulances are parked, but they do not flinch. Instead, they patch up their vehicles and get back to work, transporting the wounded, including one of their own. During that airstrike, a brand-new recruit, an American named Polly Ward-Smith, was crushed inside her ambulance. Hmm. She does survive, but she lives with life-changing injuries, and she never regains the full use of her legs. Because the women of the Rochambeau Group are officially serving with the Allied forces, they are not a civilian group. They're considered enemies in the eyes of the Germans.
28:17 Karen Kilgariff? So if they're captured, the threat of death, torture, or sexual violence are very real for them. Several women narrowly escape being arrested. So Toto, Florence's second-in-command, is, one morning, she ends up face-to-face with a German tank, covered with soldiers who are trying to flee Normandy. The tank's commander stops and threatens to take Toto prisoner, but ultimately, he has to move on because there's nowhere to put her on this overcrowded tank.
28:45 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
28:46 Karen Kilgariff? So just sheer luck.
28:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
28:48 Karen Kilgariff? Another close call involves a woman named Edite Schaller, who's in her mid-30s at the time, and in the final days of the Battle of Normandy, takes her ambulance to a garage for overnight repairs and becomes separated from her driving partner. So there's always two of them in an ambulance together.
29:05 Georgia Hardstark? Good.
29:06 Karen Kilgariff? Edite's partner is 26-year-old Micheline Grimpel, who, before joining the Rochambeau Group, actually worked in the French Resistance. This makes her particularly vulnerable to a German arrest.
29:18 Georgia Hardstark? Hmm.
29:19 Karen Kilgariff? So with all that in mind, when Edite returns the next day, Micheline has vanished. As Edite searches nearby towns for her, she accidentally crosses enemy lines. A bullet bounces off her helmet before a team of German soldiers stop her ambulance and try to take her prisoner, but Edite lies and insists she's with the Red Cross. And it works. The Nazis back off, and she drives away.
29:46 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
29:48 Karen Kilgariff? But sadly, she never finds Micheline. No one ever does.
29:53 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
29:54 Karen Kilgariff? Even though search efforts for her continue into the 1960s.
29:58 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no.
29:59 Karen Kilgariff? There are rumors that Micheline was taken into custody by Nazis while in Normandy, ostensibly during the few hours where she and Edite were separated, and that she may have eventually ended up in a Soviet prison camp. But there is no paper trail confirming or denying this.
30:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god. What a mystery.
30:16 Karen Kilgariff? As the women of Rochambeau Group deal with all the Loss and grief that comes with war, their work continues. Eventually, General Leclerc's division pushes all the way from Normandy to Paris, and Paris is liberated in August of 1944. The women of the Rochambeau Group are right there when that happens. It's a euphoric time in France. French citizens are amazed to see this all-female ambulance corps working alongside male soldiers. And when they do see that, a tidal wave of women rush to join the Rochambeau Group. Newspapers report that as many as 500 women sign up each day.
30:55 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my god.
30:55 Karen Kilgariff? Florence and Toto are totally overwhelmed with applicants. They have to turn most of them away. They can select only six new recruits to join their ranks.
31:05 Karen Kilgariff? Meanwhile, General Leclerc calls the Rochambeau Group in for a meeting. From the beginning, Leclerc's plan was to swap them out for male drivers once they got to Paris. Now, he tells them, quote, "You have carried out your mission with such brio and devotion, winning the admiration of your commanders and all in your unit, that I will keep you."
31:24 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my gosh.
31:25 Karen Kilgariff? End quote.
31:26 Georgia Hardstark? Amazing.
31:27 Karen Kilgariff? The women are over the moon, but according to Ellen Hampton, Toto is so concerned that they'll break decorum and begin celebrating when they're told this news, that she keeps them at attention. She does not let them, like, celebrate or do anything. Because, of course, when you are the minority, you have to be better, not the same as the men or the white people or whatever it is. You have to be better all the time. So they have to wait to celebrate, like, when they get somewhere else, I don't know. So from here, the Allies continue marching toward the French-German border. The Rochambeau Group splits up, and the women are now serving with different medical battalions within General Leclerc's division. This eastward push is a huge slog.
32:12 Karen Kilgariff? A very rainy autumn becomes a brutally cold winter. When the women aren't having to dig their ambulances out of the mud, they're being forced to navigate them through sleet and snow. During this part of the war, the women of the group are responding to some of the worst violence they've Seen so far, but they always rise to the occasion. By the time they arrive in Strasbourg, near the German border, they've clearly changed the minds of their male naysayers. In one mission, two of the women pull up beside a tank whose commander has been hit and is now seriously wounded. As they do that, their windshield gets blown out and they're hit with shards of glass. But they still manage to successfully pull the man out of the tank and back to the ambulance.
32:56 Karen Kilgariff? And they pull it off so quickly and so well that the soldiers taking cover nearby burst into applause.
33:04 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
33:05 Karen Kilgariff? They have glass shards in their like face, basically. And they get it done. Love it. In another high stakes moment, one of the women rescues an American officer after he's struck down by enemy fire. As bombs continue dropping, she hops out of her ambulance, crawls over to him and using her necktie manages to drag this six foot body to safety. A newspaper article reports, quote, "Three seconds later, there was a direct hit on the spot where he had been."
33:34 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
33:35 Karen Kilgariff? The officer survives. So by February of 1945, France has been liberated and General Leclerc's division with the Rochambeau Group in tow has helped reclaim important French cities from the Nazis. From here, Americans push into Germany while General Leclerc's troops are given time to rest. But a few weeks later, in April of 1945, they're dispatched to Austria. And while they're in Austria, Toto somehow happens to find Hitler's personal stationary. So for the next several weeks, she uses it to write letters to her friends and family.
34:14 Georgia Hardstark? I thought you, I thought you were gonna say she like says that she's him and like is a spy and pretends, oh my God.
34:20 Karen Kilgariff? Such a victory of like, this is mine now.
34:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
34:23 Karen Kilgariff? Then on May 7th, 1945, the news breaks, Germany has surrendered. Again, it's a euphoric moment. This war is finally going to end. And in the coming months and years, the Rochambeau Group receives awards and decorations for their incredible service. And the women get full military pensions.
34:42 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
34:42 Karen Kilgariff? Right? But when the celebrations fade, they have no idea what's next for them. Even though the war was brutal, it gave these women a kind of freedom and a purpose that they have never had and would really never have as civilians.
34:57 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
34:57 Karen Kilgariff? At the time, French women aren't exactly empowered. They can't open a bank account or get a job without their husband's permission. And French women don't have the right to vote until 1944. Several members of the Rochambeau Group return to their old lives. They don't have, you know, they basically have secretarial work or raising kids as the options available to them. Several marry men that they served alongside during the war, which wonderful B-plot, C-plot to this movie. A few find ways to keep pushing boundaries, like Toto, who stays in the military and eventually commands her own medical battalion.
35:37 Georgia Hardstark? Damn.
35:38 Karen Kilgariff? Toto, again, whose full name is Suzanne Torres, passes away in 1977 at the age of 69. So she just lived it. I mean, just got in there. Such about us. So in total, 51 women serve as ambulance drivers with the Rochambeau Group during World War II. Six are wounded during their tenures and survive, with another 28-year-old Lenora Linsley dying from a horrible head injury. And of course, 26-year-old Micheline Kimprel, who disappears and is never seen or heard from again. Like most women of their time and culture, the ladies of the Rochambeau Group are very modest about their war experiences. Despite living these unbelievable stories of bravery and grit, only three of them write
36:22 Karen Kilgariff? memoirs, all of them in French. Over time, their historic service becomes increasingly obscure, particularly outside of France.
36:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
36:31 Karen Kilgariff? But then, several decades after the war, an American journalist living in France named Ellen Hampton attends an event where a few members of the Rochambeau Group speak about their service. Ellen leaves inspired and eventually writes a book about the group entitled Women of Valor. It has since been published in French and English, making the story accessible to an international audience. Women of Valor is written after the passing of Florence Conrad, who dies in France in 1966 at the age of 80. She's on the front lines at 55.
37:06 Georgia Hardstark? That's unbelievable. Yeah.
37:07 Karen Kilgariff? And then gets to have 30 more years of like, well, I guess, guess what I did.
37:12 Georgia Hardstark? Definitely smoking those six.
37:13 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yes. This book drives home Florence's unparalleled determination to get her historic ambulance project off the ground. The book includes a snippet of an obituary Toto wrote for Florence, which lovingly says, quote, "When I met Florence Conrad in New York, she already had the glow in many American circles and above all in the French community of a veritable legend, a legend that did not surpass reality." Florence is no doubt a very worthy captain, but Toto's words specifically of her being a veritable legend could easily describe any of the so-called Rochamboes. And that's the story of the incredibly courageous fleet of female ambulance drivers in World War II, the Rochambeau Group.
37:58 Georgia Hardstark? Damn.
37:59 Karen Kilgariff? Come on.
38:00 Georgia Hardstark? Look at the bonus episode coming in hot.
38:03 Karen Kilgariff? It's bonus, it's bonus information.
38:05 Georgia Hardstark? It's empowering.
38:06 Karen Kilgariff? It's like, get out there, do your thing, don't take no for an answer, make it happen.
38:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
38:12 Karen Kilgariff? Even if you're middle aged.
38:14 Georgia Hardstark? Especially if you're middle aged. Sincerely, though, like, we don't have to say this, but they kind of let us do whatever we wanted.
38:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
38:20 Georgia Hardstark? And that is really cool. And we really appreciate that. It's pretty cool.
38:23 Karen Kilgariff? It's pretty cool. And we like their car.
38:26 Georgia Hardstark? We're both driving. What do we like?
38:29 Karen Kilgariff? So thank you Hyundai. Thank you for listening to this bonus episode. We hope you liked it and stay sexy.
38:35 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
38:37 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
38:47 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right production.
38:49 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.
38:52 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
38:54 Georgia Hardstark? This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.
38:56 Karen Kilgariff? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
38:59 Georgia Hardstark? And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
39:02 Karen Kilgariff? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
39:06 Georgia Hardstark? And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. And while you're there, please like and subscribe.
39:11 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
39:18 Karen Kilgariff? Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
39:24 Georgia Hardstark? With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date, all in one search.
39:30 Karen Kilgariff? You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.
39:32 Georgia Hardstark? Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to budget beach bliss at your fingertips.
39:37 Karen Kilgariff? Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.
39:44 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
Previous 485 - One Unwashed Lettuce Leaf Next MFM Minisode 441 Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated