Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 484 - Copse of Trees About this episode This week, Georgia and Karen cover the kidnapping and survival of Elizabeth Smart.
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Transcript 11,389 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Karen Kilgariff? This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 01 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
0:42 Georgia Hardstark? The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Sonny's life is pretty great until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his, with one exception: his mom.
0:55 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Carney Britton and Sam Nivola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
1:02 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.
1:04 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
1:09 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
1:26 Georgia Hardstark? Hello.
1:28 Karen Kilgariff? And welcome.
1:28 Georgia Hardstark? To my favorite murder.
1:30 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hardstark.
1:31 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilgariff. Can I tell you something sad?
1:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:34 Georgia Hardstark? And that I don't want to do with. There was a dead crow in my pool this morning.
1:37 Karen Kilgariff? No.
1:38 Georgia Hardstark? Is that a bad omen for me or for the crow?
1:41 Karen Kilgariff? Well, it's definitely for the crow.
1:42 Georgia Hardstark? And are all the other crows in the neighborhood gonna think that we killed their friend?
1:47 Karen Kilgariff? No, they don't think you're responsible for the pool, I bet.
1:49 Georgia Hardstark? But what if they're flying over when I was trying to get them out? And it looked like I was drowning.
1:54 Karen Kilgariff? You're afraid the crows are coming for you?
1:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:56 Karen Kilgariff? Well.
1:57 Georgia Hardstark? Like, after everything I've done for those crows.
1:59 Karen Kilgariff? I know. I mean, they gotta have some good faith in
2:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
2:02 Karen Kilgariff? your participation, but what did you do with the crow's body?
2:06 Georgia Hardstark? I left it for Vince to deal with.
2:08 Karen Kilgariff? Good. Because then he's gonna look it up to be like, what do crows want you to do in this situation?
2:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, right. I don't know. Have a bonfire, but... I don't know. It was so disturbing and also like, how did it die? Why, is there something more we should worry about? I'm not going in that pool ever again. So, we should probably move.
2:29 Karen Kilgariff? Sure. I think you should make a bunch of decisions like that based on this. Don't look anything up. Don't.
2:35 Georgia Hardstark? It was so sad and disturbing.
2:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's awful.
2:37 Georgia Hardstark? I was like hoping, oh, it was just, yeah.
2:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's rough. Also, it's like, I think the connection of like birds and omens and stuff is-
2:45 Georgia Hardstark? And a crow of all fucking things.
2:47 Karen Kilgariff? Like, and then your favorite. So it's almost like-
2:50 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
2:51 Karen Kilgariff? That's very sad.
2:52 Georgia Hardstark? Which is worse than that, or when I found the dug up cremains of a pet in my front yard?
2:58 Karen Kilgariff? I think that this crow is worse because the crow is like, the cremains were like a bag of something. And then you're just like, what? But, right?
3:05 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know. Viewers, will you vote at home? Which is worse?
3:10 Karen Kilgariff? Which is worse in Georgia? And then describe how it's worse for Georgia and what you think is going to be happening to her. Like a witch knocks at your door. Did you drown my crow?
3:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, God.
3:21 Karen Kilgariff? I have had birds fly into the house and I always was taught or heard that birds in the house are very bad luck. Like that they-
3:29 Georgia Hardstark? But moths are good.
3:30 Karen Kilgariff? Foretell. Moths are good, but I mean, but here's the thing. It's like, the way my house is, there's windows at the back and front. And birds think it's a throughway.
3:38 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
3:38 Karen Kilgariff? So I've had so many birds in my house that at this point, I'm just like, I can't, it's not proving out to be a real thing.
3:44 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, that's good to know.
3:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. But I just, it's, it's like, be careful about birds. Be careful about-
3:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Be kind to birds.
3:51 Karen Kilgariff? Be kind to birds. Can you throw out a couple sparkly things for them to be happy about?
3:56 Georgia Hardstark? I'll do that. Yeah. Or dog treats. They like dog treats. They give, they give me sparkly things, right?
4:02 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I guess that's true.
4:03 Georgia Hardstark? Them dog treats.
4:03 Karen Kilgariff? I thought they liked sparkly things.
4:05 Georgia Hardstark? I'll give them sparkly things.
4:06 Karen Kilgariff? Throw a diamond out there.
4:08 Georgia Hardstark? Throw a diamond. Here's my wedding ring.
4:10 Karen Kilgariff? I'm sorry for your friend. The loss of a friend is very difficult.
4:15 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
4:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:16 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, so we're gonna follow through on something we've talked about in the past.
4:19 Karen Kilgariff? Can you believe it?
4:21 Georgia Hardstark? So a couple of weeks ago, I gave Karen a book, a self-help book, and we decided we're going to do a self-help book club. And so we just want to remind you guys to pick up this book if you want to follow along. It's called Emotional Agility: Get Unstuck, Embrace Change, and Thrive in Work and Life by Susan David. So while we're on our little vacation, we're going to both read that probably, maybe, or you'll never hear about it again.
4:48 Karen Kilgariff? We're going to do it because people want a book club of some kind, and we can at least approach it. And I did like your original idea, which is read it and then you say what you learned and I'll say what I learned.
4:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and the next time you pick one.
5:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, exactly. And people can write in. But also, who recommended that book to you first? Your therapist?
5:06 Georgia Hardstark? No, no, it was on one of those like 10 books that'll change your life lists.
5:11 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, nice.
5:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
5:13 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so are you ready to have your life changed?
5:14 Georgia Hardstark? I'm ready and willing. I need it.
5:16 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, then I'm excited about this because I'm interested in reading this book, but I just don't make time for reading. So it will make me do that.
5:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, you have to.
5:24 Karen Kilgariff? Take that book with me on my break and then get through it and treat it as homework.
5:29 Georgia Hardstark? If you don't do it, a crow will die.
5:31 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, we will drown a crow.
5:34 Georgia Hardstark? We'll drown one crow for every chapter.
5:38 Karen Kilgariff? You're just like outside drinking your coffee like, today's going to be a great day.
5:42 Georgia Hardstark? Anything else?
5:44 Karen Kilgariff? I don't think so. Should we just talk about our network?
5:47 Georgia Hardstark? Sure, yeah, let's talk about our podcast network called My Favorite, nope, called Exactly Right Media.
5:52 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, well, this is kind of breaking news about the fan cults. We basically, we're taking new members because we're now offering ad-free audio, which people have been asking us for, for years and years. We've been at different companies that offer it here and there, whatever, but we now offer it ourselves. You just have to join the fan cult.
6:13 Georgia Hardstark? Yep, it's not a big deal. Just do it. And this is your last chance, this is your last warning to join the fan cult right now at a discounted price. So now through Friday, June 13th, you can get the old price of just $3.33 a month for the You're in a Cult tier and $8 a month for the Call Your Dad tier. So go to fancult.supercast.com to join.
6:38 Karen Kilgariff? Eight dollars a month, or there's a, the yearly is actually less than what eight dollars a month would add up to.
6:43 Georgia Hardstark? It's eighty dollars, yeah. It's a deal all around.
6:46 Karen Kilgariff? Eight times twelve is eighty?
6:48 Georgia Hardstark? No, I think it's cheaper.
6:52 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know. Ninety-six. Okay, so it's, yeah, so there's a discount all, all around. You want to pay for the year, you'll get even a bigger discount.
7:01 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. We're trying to point out that we're passing the savings along to you.
7:04 Georgia Hardstark? I'm crazy Larry, I've got to get rid of these TVs.
7:07 Karen Kilgariff? I can't do basic multiplication, I'm crazy Larry. I can't tell you how much twelve times eight is, that's too bad, Karen.
7:14 Georgia Hardstark? But guess what we can tell you about merch?
7:17 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
7:17 Georgia Hardstark? Because we have this cute pin to show you.
7:20 Karen Kilgariff? That's right. This cute pin that actually sold out almost immediately when we put it out last time. So look at that, look at the action on that pin. You can figure out what mood you're in. It's the MFM Mood Pin. And what are those emotions?
7:33 Georgia Hardstark? It's are you stay out of the forest? Are you stay sexy, don't get murdered? Are you, here's the thing, fuck everyone? Or are you, this is terrible, keep going? You just spin this little hand that has an MFM on it and it tells you what you are.
7:47 Karen Kilgariff? And that's like, if you want to only communicate through these pins, we support you entirely. And just throw it right over to go fuck yourself.
7:55 Georgia Hardstark? I love it, that's very cute.
7:56 Karen Kilgariff? So go to exactlyrightstore.com to order those pins. Get yours now before they're all sold out again.
8:02 Georgia Hardstark? People love them, they're going to sell out.
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8:50 Karen Kilgariff? of a website or domain. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
8:55 Georgia Hardstark? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.
8:58 Karen Kilgariff? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.
9:08 Georgia Hardstark? If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.
9:19 Karen Kilgariff? Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.
9:23 Georgia Hardstark? Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.
9:27 Karen Kilgariff? I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.
9:42 Georgia Hardstark? And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?
9:45 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you call my feet stinky.
9:48 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye.
9:54 Karen Kilgariff? We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.
9:59 Georgia Hardstark? You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.
10:08 Karen Kilgariff? Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.
10:14 Georgia Hardstark? Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.
10:18 Karen Kilgariff? That's why there's Solace Health.
10:19 Georgia Hardstark? Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.
10:26 Karen Kilgariff? Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.
10:32 Georgia Hardstark? They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.
10:38 Karen Kilgariff? Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.
10:44 Georgia Hardstark? Improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.
10:48 Karen Kilgariff? Eligibility varies by insurance plan.
10:50 Georgia Hardstark? Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services must be 18 years or older.
10:55 Karen Kilgariff? Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.
10:58 Georgia Hardstark? It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.
11:00 Karen Kilgariff? That's S O L A C E health.com/murder.
11:04 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
11:08 Georgia Hardstark? You've got the Home Shopping Network thing down.
11:10 Karen Kilgariff? You know what? I love merch and I love getting through a solo episode.
11:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, you don't have to do jack shit now.
11:16 Karen Kilgariff? You know, it's the best.
11:17 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, I now it's work time for me.
11:19 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. Do you need anything from me?
11:21 Georgia Hardstark? No, I think I'm okay.
11:23 Karen Kilgariff? What about like weird steely stare?
11:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, definitely like stare me down. Make me really uncomfortable.
11:29 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, or I'm gonna do the thing the second you look up, I'm gonna look down. This will trick you.
11:34 Georgia Hardstark? Through your papers or something like that.
11:36 Karen Kilgariff? Just a lot of under audio.
11:40 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, get serious. This is a serious one.
11:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
11:43 Georgia Hardstark? It's a heavy hitter.
11:44 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
11:45 Georgia Hardstark? I didn't want to do it until I read the autobiography about it and I did. So today's story is about a kidnapping in June of 2002 in Salt Lake City, which could only mean one thing. This is a kidnapping and survival story of Elizabeth Smart.
12:01 Karen Kilgariff? And it's her version of it?
12:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, it's called My Story. I read it. It's incredible.
12:06 Karen Kilgariff? Brilliant.
12:07 Georgia Hardstark? It's just like so moving. And then there's also a docu-series that she's in called Autobiography Elizabeth Smart. And then the rest of their sources can be found in the show notes. Here we are. It's June 6th, 2002. Do you know this one well or?
12:21 Karen Kilgariff? Not well.
12:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
12:22 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I know it enough to, like, if you ask me, I think I would pass a test of the sea.
12:28 Georgia Hardstark? It's the one with that, but you don't know like the details.
12:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, but here's one detail I do remember kind of separate is our first show in Salt Lake City. Remember the audience member that gave us the picture where it was Elizabeth Smart at the party?
12:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, I'm gonna get to that. It's so fucking crazy. It's so crazy. And then, and then also like I always, I used to think of the J C Duggard story as well, which I also read her autobiography. So they're very different, although they're similar in a lot of ways as well. So. It's June 6th, 2002. It's a warm, quiet night in the Federal Heights neighborhood of Salt Lake City, Utah, obviously. Federal Heights sits at the foothills of the Wasatch Mountains, perched above the downtown area. So there's a lot of like, you know, mountainous terrain and how beautiful nature is in Utah.
13:18 Karen Kilgariff? Incredible. Remember that view out that hotel we got to stay at?
13:21 Georgia Hardstark? Absolutely not.
13:22 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, yes. The mountains and then the fog rolls in.
13:25 Georgia Hardstark? No, you know what I remember is that they had English tea. I remember the food.
13:30 Karen Kilgariff? Yep. We just had an, or maybe it was just my room. Maybe you were on the other side.
13:34 Georgia Hardstark? I had it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:35 Karen Kilgariff? I faced the mountain range and then watched a storm front come over the mountain range and change the entire view and then go away. And I was like, this is unbelievable.
13:45 Georgia Hardstark? I love weather. It's just, we don't have it here.
13:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's really cool.
13:49 Georgia Hardstark? So this is where the Smart family lives. Ed and Lois Smart have six children, four boys and two girls. Elizabeth is the second oldest child and the oldest girl, the big sister. She's 14 years old and she's asleep in the room she shares with her nine-year-old sister, Mary Catherine. At about 2:00 in the morning, Elizabeth opens her eyes to what seems like a nightmare, but within a few minutes she realizes it's real. It's a man standing in their bedroom, dressed all in black, and then he's standing over her and she feels something cold and sharp against her neck.
14:24 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
14:24 Georgia Hardstark? And he says, quote, "I have a knife to your throat. Don't make a sound. Get out of bed or I'll kill you and your family."
14:31 Karen Kilgariff? This is the rarest kind of a true crime.
14:35 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
14:35 Karen Kilgariff? This is the stranger abduction is so rare and it's just so creepy and it's like everyone's worst nightmare.
14:43 Georgia Hardstark? And then imagine you're a kid and you're in a house of eight people, including sharing a room with your little sister.
14:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
14:49 Georgia Hardstark? It's just unfathomable.
14:50 Karen Kilgariff? It's unfathomable. And it's similar to Poli Class.
14:52 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
14:53 Karen Kilgariff? Taken out of a place where everyone is.
14:55 Georgia Hardstark? Feels safe.
14:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, totally.
14:58 Georgia Hardstark? So Elizabeth says, quote, "It really seemed like either do what he says and go with him or have your neck cut open and die," end quote. The man makes Elizabeth get out of bed. He makes her get her sneakers. She asks him why he's doing this and he says, quote, "I'm taking you hostage for ransom," end quote. So as she's being walked through the hallway of her home, Elizabeth silently prays that her parents will wake up and come rescue her. But she also worries that the man has already killed her family. She doesn't know.
15:28 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
15:28 Georgia Hardstark? That's definitely a possibility. So she only knows for sure that her little sister, who she shares a room with, is still alive. And she wants to keep it that way, and so she complies.
15:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
15:38 Georgia Hardstark? The house remains silent, and the man walks Elizabeth out the sliding glass door to the backyard. Elizabeth's house is at the base of a mountain. There's one more residential street behind the house. And after that, there's just a trail that goes uphill. This story has so many moments of close calls of her being rescued that it's so frustrating. And this immediately is one of them because the cop car drives by and doesn't see anything.
16:04 Karen Kilgariff? Nightmare.
16:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So the man leads her uphill with the knife at her back. She tries on multiple occasions to bargain with him, saying that her parents will pay this ransom that he said he's after and that they won't press charges. She gets to a point where she tells him that if his plan is to rape and kill her, he should just do it here, right there, because she wants her parents to be able to find her body. I know. Elizabeth says that he then smiles, which is a look that chills her to the bone. And he says, quote, "I'm not going to rape and kill you yet," end quote.
16:36 Karen Kilgariff? I think most of us have seen pictures of this man. And it is like so sinister.
16:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:41 Karen Kilgariff? To think of it this way, where he's like, truly looks like a boogeyman. He's like confusing looking and very like, almost like ancient looking and creepy.
16:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like someone that if you saw on the street, you would avoid as a woman. As a woman alone on the street, you would not be comfortable walking past this person.
16:57 Karen Kilgariff? So that guy smiling in the woods of like, and saying that sentence is like, man.
17:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
17:02 Karen Kilgariff? Horrifying.
17:02 Georgia Hardstark? It is. So at daybreak, as they're still walking, Elizabeth gets a better look at her captor. And she realizes that she recognizes him. He's a man who did yard work at her family's house for one day, months earlier.
17:15 Georgia Hardstark? He had introduced himself as Emmanuel. And when she had met him, he had been clean shaven. And now he has a long scraggly beard, but she can tell it's definitely him. The family had first met Emmanuel on a street corner in downtown Salt Lake City in the fall of 2001, about eight months prior. The kids in Lois, the mom, had been back to school shopping and they saw him panhandling. And they are a charitable family. So the boys, the smart boys, asked their mom if there was any work that they could give him around the house. And she gives him a $5 bill and says that, you know, there is work for you to do if you around the house for money, if you can come. Elizabeth later writes, quote, "What I didn't know, but would later learn, was that he
17:59 Georgia Hardstark? had been watching me very carefully as we walked toward him. He had taken the opportunity to study me further as my mom searched through her purse. He remembered everything about me, the clothes I was wearing, my blonde hair, the way I looked up at my mother, the color of my eyes. And though he was careful not to show it, he decided that moment that I was the one." Like he was already looking to prey on someone. When the smart family does wind up hiring Emmanuel to rake leaves and repair the roof at their house, he learns where she lives that way. And he spends the next couple of months devising his plan to kidnap Elizabeth. Emmanuel's actual name is Brian David Mitchell. And at this point, he's about 49 years old. Elizabeth makes it clear in her book that everything she's learned about him has been
18:44 Georgia Hardstark? against her will. So we won't talk too much about him, but she briefly outlines how he has a history of substance abuse. And as a teenager, he had been charged for exposing himself to a younger child. He had been married three times and had 13 children and stepchildren. Jesus. And among those children were other charges of abuse. So this is just a bad, bad man. Back to that morning, when they get to the top of the mountain, they walk into a densely wooded area and then Elizabeth sees a campsite. Mitchell calls out a name, it's Hepsiba. Then Elizabeth hears a woman's voice yelling his name, Emmanuel, in return. And then an eerie looking woman steps out of the tent.
19:27 Georgia Hardstark? I always think of The Princess Bride when, yeah. A witch. Yeah. She has messy, stringy, long gray hair and she's wearing a set of white robes. Like, how chilling for this child to see.
19:42 Karen Kilgariff? This is like a Grimm's fairy tale gone totally wrong.
19:46 Georgia Hardstark? And then, yeah, and then also seeing a woman, there's like a part of you where it's like, oh, maybe I'm saved because it's not just this creepy man with you.
19:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, right.
19:55 Georgia Hardstark? But immediately realizing it's not the case.
19:57 Karen Kilgariff? She's like crawling out of a well, basically, of just like, this is as scary as it can be.
20:01 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. This woman is Wanda Barzy. She's in her late 50s and she's Mitchell's third wife. Barzy had also been previously married, has six children, but she relinquished her parental rights when she met and married Mitchell. So as Mitchell and Elizabeth enter the campsite, Barzy envelops Elizabeth in a hug that feels more menacing than comforting. So one thing that neither Elizabeth nor her captors realize is that Elizabeth's little sister, nine-year-old Mary Catherine, had actually woken up and seen almost the whole kidnapping.
20:35 Karen Kilgariff? I didn't know that.
20:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's what I'm telling you. I know. Elizabeth and Mary Catherine are very close. Every night, Elizabeth reads out loud from a chapter book to her little sister. On the night of the kidnapping, they had been in the middle of Ella Enchanted. Right after Elizabeth is taken out of her room, she attempts to go wake up her parents, but she gets freaked out thinking that Elizabeth and her captor are still there.
21:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
21:01 Georgia Hardstark? So she runs back to her room and hides under the covers and stays there for about two hours until she can get the courage to go wake up her parents.
21:09 Karen Kilgariff? The fact that she could go and do it at all is unbelievable. That is the scariest thing, a man with a fucking knife in your room.
21:16 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, takes your sister.
21:18 Karen Kilgariff? The idea that she wasn't just stuck there till the morning is, she's incredible.
21:23 Georgia Hardstark? When she gets the nerve to wake her parents and tells them Elizabeth has been taken, the three of them go downstairs together. And when Lois turns on the lights, she immediately sees an open kitchen window and that the screen at the window had been sliced open and she starts screaming.
21:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
21:40 Georgia Hardstark? Unfortunately, the situation unfolds similarly to, in the JonBenet Ramsey case, and it's mistakes that are immediately made. Ed calls the police, but he also calls lots of friends and family members, obviously, to come help look for his daughter Elizabeth. But the inexperienced graveyard shift police officers that first show up don't lock down the house and in pretty quickly, every last inch of it has been completely trampled.
22:06 Karen Kilgariff? Now, I could totally be wrong, but no idea. It seems to me you want the experienced people on the night shift. It's nighttime shift.
22:14 Georgia Hardstark? Can we have the experienced people on the all shifts?
22:16 Karen Kilgariff? Good point, but I guess the answer is no. So if we had to split it, can't the inexperienced people do stuff during the day?
22:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, bad things happen at night.
22:24 Karen Kilgariff? That's when the evils come out. I don't know.
22:27 Georgia Hardstark? I hear you.
22:28 Karen Kilgariff? Someone's like, and the actual fact of that is at four o'clock is the time.
22:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. It's all bad.
22:33 Karen Kilgariff? It's all bad.
22:34 Georgia Hardstark? By the time an experienced detective gets there at 6:00 AM, he says that Elizabeth's room and the rest of the house is quote, "contaminated beyond all hope." So all members of the Smart family are questioned individually by police, of course, and Mary Catherine recounts what she saw. She says she believes she heard Elizabeth Capter say the word ransom, which she's right, he did say, although he was lying. Ed Smart's brother, the dad's brother, works for the Deseret News, which is one of the main newspapers in Utah. So later that day, the Smarts appear before the media and Ed's brother gets Elizabeth's photo out and story out to all the national news outlets.
23:16 Georgia Hardstark? And it's a huge story immediately on cable news by that evening. You know, we have to say it's a beautiful blonde girl who goes missing from a, you know, religious family, so.
23:27 Karen Kilgariff? In the mid 2000s, right?
23:29 Georgia Hardstark? Right, 2002. Meanwhile, we're back at this campsite and the woman Elizabeth knows now as Hetzaba washes Elizabeth's feet, almost like a ritual thing, and then forces Elizabeth to change out of her red pajamas into a set of white robes similar to what she's wearing. And this, it's so hard to read her account of this, but it's incredible that she was able to express herself. Elizabeth is left alone in the tent and Emmanuel comes back in. He's now wearing a similar set of robes and he performs what he tells Elizabeth is a marriage ceremony and afterwards he rapes her, just immediately after kidnapping her.
24:09 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
24:11 Karen Kilgariff? It's the only reason he did it.
24:12 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
24:12 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, like, the idea that he has roped in some woman to somehow ritualize that is disgusting.
24:19 Georgia Hardstark? And thinking about God somehow.
24:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
24:21 Georgia Hardstark? One of the most evil fucking thing in the world.
24:23 Karen Kilgariff? Jesus is the one who washed people's feet. I don't, you can get up because no one's buying that from you, ma'am.
24:28 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
24:29 Karen Kilgariff? So gross.
24:30 Georgia Hardstark? And so Elizabeth is a member of the LDS Church, of course, and writes about how her faith helped her survive her terrible ordeal. But in the years since her kidnapping, she's also become a vocal critic of the purity culture in which she was raised. It's really interesting because she had grown up being told that her worth was tied to her virginity. It was taken away from her forcefully and then she immediately felt worthless.
25:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
25:00 Georgia Hardstark? And she doesn't think that that's fair.
25:03 Karen Kilgariff? No.
25:04 Georgia Hardstark? After she was raped, she says that she struggled with a sense of worthlessness that immediately followed and it made her almost reluctant to seek help during different points in her captivity. Like, she didn't feel worth saving anymore.
25:17 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
25:17 Georgia Hardstark? She says she thought, quote, "Why would it even be worth screaming out? Why would it even make a difference if you are rescued? Your life still has no value." End quote.
25:27 Karen Kilgariff? It's weird that that's the message coming from a religion.
25:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
25:31 Karen Kilgariff? It just is so, it just isn't, because who does that actually affect? They're not saying that the man.
25:37 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
25:38 Karen Kilgariff? Has no value. It's the woman always.
25:39 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. On many occasions, Elizabeth has criticized the abstinence-only education she was given, which, when she was experiencing the worst suffering of her life, made her think of herself as, quote, "a chewed-up piece of gum."
25:51 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
25:52 Georgia Hardstark? So she's fighting against that, which is incredible.
25:54 Karen Kilgariff? That's great.
25:55 Georgia Hardstark? So Mitchell puts a wire cable around Elizabeth's ankle and he then attaches that to a tree so there's no opportunity for her to try to run away.
26:03 Karen Kilgariff? Sorry, really quick, but that, just that, linking all of that together, this is why I'm so excited that she wrote an autobiography.
26:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
26:09 Karen Kilgariff? Because that idea of, "I never thought about that," of the purity culture, because there was the time where, before she was actually found, where they took film of her walking down the street with them. It's like, why would she do this?
26:21 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
26:21 Karen Kilgariff? And it's like, instead of actually finding out why, it was just people wanting to scream, like, well, she must have wanted to be with them or something.
26:27 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
26:28 Karen Kilgariff? Instead of like, track it to why she would be feeling that way.
26:31 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, she was already indoctrinated in this religious practice.
26:35 Karen Kilgariff? Idea, yeah.
26:35 Georgia Hardstark? Ideology and believed this thing about herself. There's the answer's right there. Yeah, and the answer is you know, no one knows how they'll react in a situation that's so traumatic. So shut the fuck up. Yeah. Okay. You're saying shut the fuck up. So no more questions. So Karen, okay, so at the bottom of the mountain, a massive search effort mobilizes to look for Elizabeth. Around 10,000 volunteers show up to help. It's a huge story. On the third day of Elizabeth's disappearance, after not sleeping, Ed, her father, suffers a breakdown and is briefly hospitalized, but the search efforts continue. On that same day, while at the campsite, Elizabeth actually hears her name called out by searchers.
27:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, no. She is elated, thinking she's going to be rescued, but she's sitting right in between Mitchell and Barzy at the campsite. Mitchell picks up a knife and says he'll kill her if she makes any noise. And to Elizabeth's horror, the voices fade and she doesn't ever hear anyone searching for her again. Except she does hear helicopters flying right above the campsite, which is like it's shaking the tent. It's so close, but it's hidden by a dense crop, cop. Overgrowth? Of trees. Thank you. What were you trying to say? Crop. A crop, yeah. No, cops. What is it? I've been reading too many fucking Scottish books lately. Cops. Cops, a TV show? No. One of my favorites.
28:05 Georgia Hardstark? Cops of trees. Yes, thank you. I've literally been reading Irish and Scottish books lately. How do you spell cops? C O R P S, right? C O P S E. That's it. Cops. I literally have never heard that word before. Okay. Amazing. I think I only read it, which is why I didn't know how to. That's what happens to readers. Okay, so over the coming weeks, the Smart family, they come under scrutiny at first. But soon the focus falls on a man who did some construction work around the Smart house also. But it's a different man completely. This man had a criminal history and possibly had stolen from the Smarts while working on their house. Like he's a good looking suspect for this crime. He's also accused of breaking and entering and stealing in other homes around the neighborhood.
28:48 Georgia Hardstark? But Mary Catherine, Elizabeth's little sister, tells her parents she is positive that he is not the person she saw in her room the night of Elizabeth's disappearance. But of course she's nine and they're like, uh huh. Shut the fuck up, you know what I mean?
29:01 Karen Kilgariff? I want Mary Catherine's autobiography now.
29:04 Georgia Hardstark? Seriously?
29:05 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, a nine-year-old that has, is has to like, fight for her sister.
29:08 Georgia Hardstark? Wait till you hear what she does.
29:09 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I'm definitely crying during this episode.
29:12 Georgia Hardstark? Then, about six weeks after Elizabeth's kidnapping, while this other dude is in custody, being questioned, Mitchell tells Elizabeth that he's going to kidnap Elizabeth's cousin. Elizabeth had casually brought up her cousin in a previous conversation, which is how Mitchell had come up with the idea. So Elizabeth's cousin, who is around the same age as Elizabeth, named Olivia, 50 days after Elizabeth's abduction, the Wright family, basically, they awaken to someone trying to climb through a window in their house, had cut the screen, just like at Elizabeth's house. But Elizabeth's cousin, Olivia, had actually been sleeping on the floor of her parents' bedroom at the time, because everyone is so freaked out.
29:51 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my god.
29:52 Georgia Hardstark? However, her sister would have been asleep in the bedroom if Mitchell had made it in, but he didn't. They woke up and chased him off. So the guy that they think did it is in custody when that happens, right?
30:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
30:05 Georgia Hardstark? So like, maybe it's not him. No, police are not convinced at the time that they have the wrong guy. But at the same time, you can't be like, that's great that they kept, you know what I mean? Like, it could have been a copycat. We're talking shit because now we know that it's all him.
30:19 Karen Kilgariff? It's all hindsight.
30:19 Georgia Hardstark? But he's still a suspect for a reason.
30:22 Karen Kilgariff? Right. And I mean, it's that idea of like, if you have a person that's checking seven of the 10 boxes.
30:28 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
30:28 Karen Kilgariff? You can't just be like, yeah, that's right, something else happened similar.
30:32 Georgia Hardstark? Right. We would have been talking shit on that if that was the case.
30:35 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
30:36 Georgia Hardstark? But the Smart family, they totally believe it means the kidnapper is still at large. And since he knew about Olivia, the cousin, like specifically, that that might mean that Elizabeth is still alive.
30:47 Karen Kilgariff? Got it.
30:48 Georgia Hardstark? Because she talked about her. Which just gives some hope.
30:50 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
30:51 Georgia Hardstark? So back at the campsite, Elizabeth is sexually abused nearly every day. Mitchell calls Elizabeth by a different name. Sheerja Shub is her name, some biblical, it's an obscure Old Testament reference. He forces her to drink alcohol, which is against her religion. He also makes her talk in a biblical way, lots of these and thou's and cops.
31:12 Karen Kilgariff? Nerd.
31:14 Georgia Hardstark? Cops of trees.
31:16 Karen Kilgariff? Will you please say cops have trees instead of forests? She's just like, dude.
31:21 Georgia Hardstark? Elizabeth spends a total of six weeks tied to that tree at the campsite before Mitchell and Barzy decide to start making regular trips down into Salt Lake City as a group.
31:33 Karen Kilgariff? So she just has to, for almost two months, just camp with these psychos and stay alive?
31:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, and get sexually assaulted and raped on the daily.
31:46 Karen Kilgariff? That's such a long time.
31:48 Georgia Hardstark? It's horrible. Like, this is just so brazen. They take her with them. They all wear, there are white robes, but Barzy and Elizabeth cover their hair and faces with white veils, so only their eyes can be seen. They look like some kind of religious fundamentalists, which stands out even in Salt Lake City, where everyone is. And Elizabeth says that people would just quickly look away uncomfortably whenever they passed.
32:11 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
32:11 Georgia Hardstark? On one occasion, they're at a grocery store, and the cashier invites them to a house party, and they go. It's a house that regularly hosts events for the Salt Lake City counterculture scene, which is like, kind of punk, you know? And there's usually a performance art element to these events, so they see these people who obviously have these certain beliefs and like, hey, come to, like, come to our party. These guys would be cool to talk to.
32:36 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
32:36 Georgia Hardstark? Or this guy, because the women don't speak. So they invite him, and there are photographs of them at the party, like you said. And, like, hindsight, of course, you look at the photo. It's like a close-up, and it's so clearly her.
32:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
32:50 Georgia Hardstark? To us. And, I mean, it's just so heartbreaking and hard to look at, and you can't help but be like, if I were there, I would have done this and that, but you wouldn't have.
32:58 Karen Kilgariff? No.
32:59 Georgia Hardstark? You know? And like, there's a picture of him talking to a girl. She's like, I'll tatted up. She looks like a murderer now. She looks very cool. She's probably, like, has her sensors up, and I'm sure she's just like, I should have known, because they do later talk about feeling guilty that they didn't figure it out.
33:15 Karen Kilgariff? Of course. But it's like, first of all, 2002 is a time of great toxicity in our culture in general. And so, that idea of like, I have an inkling of something, and I'm worried about it, but everyone stayed quiet with everything.
33:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:31 Karen Kilgariff? Because there was no kind of, here's a pattern if you call the cops, or if you're gonna try to- Draw attention to something.
33:37 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:37 Karen Kilgariff? As a woman by yourself, here's how it's gonna go.
33:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:41 Karen Kilgariff? Everyone's gonna say you're crazy and weird and like not go with you.
33:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
33:45 Karen Kilgariff? And so many women had experienced that whereas 2025, girls, you literally have to like look up and give somebody a look and people will be like, hey, girl, what's up? You're coming with us.
33:54 Georgia Hardstark? Got the hand gestures down.
33:55 Karen Kilgariff? It's changed profoundly, whereas before it was like, you don't want to step out of line.
34:01 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
34:01 Karen Kilgariff? Even at like a punk party.
34:03 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. And on this occasion, at the party, 14 year old Elizabeth just is too stunned and scared by all the people to say anything. Again, she had been two months of extreme trauma. She's just scared. However, Mitchell is so disruptive and obnoxious that they, even they can't stand him and they kick him out of the party.
34:26 Karen Kilgariff? They're like, we like stuff like that here and we hate you.
34:28 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like you're the worst person. Get the fuck out.
34:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
34:31 Georgia Hardstark? On another occasion, okay, and so this is the thing too, because those party attendees say they feel haunted by the fact that they didn't realize that it was Elizabeth. But on another occasion, in August of 2002, two months after Elizabeth's kidnapping, the group goes to the Salt Lake City Public Library to research places they can spend the winter. And when they're there, a library patron actually looks closely at Elizabeth in her veil and that person recognized her from just her eyes in the slit of her veil because it's a huge story. It's one of their own who's gone missing. Immediately he thinks it's her. That person calls the police. That person's clearly a hero. The person tells them it's Elizabeth Smart at his library and a homicide detective comes.
35:15 Georgia Hardstark? Long story short, he lets them go. He questions them. He claims, Mitchell claims that Elizabeth is his daughter and that she keeps her face covered for religious reasons, so you can't ask her to show her face. And while this is happening, Elizabeth is standing there and she's worried that if she speaks out, the detective might not believe her and she'll be punished or killed because of it.
35:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. She's been brutalized ritualistically.
35:43 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
35:44 Karen Kilgariff? She's not in a place where she can be like, here's, I'm gonna stand up and be strong. It's like, no, she need that cop. That's that kind of thing. And it's like, this isn't based on anything, except for in a situation like that, letting him dictate terms fucks you every time.
36:00 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
36:00 Karen Kilgariff? Because he's absolutely going to do the thing that covers his ass.
36:03 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
36:04 Karen Kilgariff? So if it's like, no, sorry, you simply can't do that for our religious reasons. It's like, grab that female librarian, go into that room and make her take
36:11 Georgia Hardstark? Separate everyone.
36:11 Karen Kilgariff? Take this off. Like, do the thing that's most respectful, but at the same time, get your answer.
36:17 Georgia Hardstark? That's how the J.C. Duggard case was solved, is because someone wouldn't mind their own business.
36:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
36:24 Georgia Hardstark? It's the exact same thing.
36:25 Karen Kilgariff? And you know Adrienne, my sister's friend Adrienne's mother-in-law?
36:28 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
36:28 Karen Kilgariff? She didn't mind her own business as a parole officer who went and checked there and said,
36:32 Georgia Hardstark? That's it.
36:32 Karen Kilgariff? Bad stuff is happening there. You need to go raid it. And they wouldn't listen to her.
36:36 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
36:37 Karen Kilgariff? Pushpa Kallasingham, you're a queen. You're the best. She's the one that used to say to Nora, when Nora, when she was little and said, when she grew up, she wanted to be a cheerleader. And Pushpa would go, don't be a cheerleader, be a doctor.
36:51 Georgia Hardstark? I've told you that story before.
36:53 Karen Kilgariff? And now we're back to the Elizabeth Smart case.
36:56 Georgia Hardstark? So somehow Mitchell is able to walk free after this interaction. This happening also, like, doubled down to her that you're stuck here. You're lost. Do not say anything. You know what I mean? Like, just reinforced all of that for her. So right around the same time, that prime suspect who Mary Catherine's had said wasn't the guy, dies of an aneurysm. Is that suspicious? Because so many investigators were convinced that this man had kidnapped and killed Elizabeth, it deflates a lot of people's hope that Elizabeth will ever be found. Elizabeth's family, who believe her kidnapper wasn't that guy, and is still at large, worried the police will quit looking. By September of 2002, Mitchell, Barzy, and
37:40 Georgia Hardstark? Elizabeth, they've relocated to San Diego. And they're camping at a new site in a wetland outside the city. Elizabeth nicknames this area the Fire Swamp, because it looks exactly like the Fire Swamp from the movie The Princess Bride.
37:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
37:55 Georgia Hardstark? She's just a kid.
37:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
37:58 Georgia Hardstark? All right, so back to Mary Catherine. It's been four months and she's just constantly going over in her head what happened, what she saw and heard the night of her big sister's disappearance. In October of 2002, Ed Smart is tucking his now 10-year-old daughter, Mary Catherine, into bed. And she says, "I think I know whose voice I heard that night. It just comes to her." She says she thinks it's Emanuel, the unhoused man they had hired for yard work a year earlier. Yep. She just remembers suddenly, some little piece in her brain clicks together, and she remembers the exact, correct person. How, like, that's just extraordinary. Yeah.
38:42 Georgia Hardstark? Right? The whole family remembers him, and they remember meeting him in downtown Salt Lake. They remember the one day he came to work on their roof in late 2001. They remember that he talked a lot about his ministry work, like how he said he liked to preach at homeless shelters. And they remember that he was supposed to come back the next day to finish the job, but he never did. They tell police, the police are skeptical about this lead. There's a lot of back and forth between the police and the Smart family about whether a sketch of Emanuel should even be released. This back and forth lasts into the beginning of 2003. I know, this poor family. Some authorities in the Salt Lake City Police are just completely convinced that this earlier, now-dead suspect was the one who kidnapped and killed Elizabeth.
39:27 Georgia Hardstark? And they don't believe that 10-year-old Mary Catherine could possibly know what she's talking about. But thankfully, others believe that there could be merit to releasing a sketch of Emanuel. However, they also think that doing so, if it is him, could endanger her life if she is actually still alive. Meanwhile, back in California, Mitchell has been disappearing from the campsite for days on end, leaving both Elizabeth and Barzy to come close to dying of dehydration and starvation.
39:56 Georgia Hardstark? Mitchell's also talking about moving again, this time to like a big city like New York or Boston to get lost there. Elizabeth thinks that if this happens, she knows she'll never be found. She decides to try to manipulate him. She knows him so well at this point, and she thinks her best chance of survival is to go back to Utah where people will recognize her, you know? She plays it perfectly. She tells Mitchell that she knows God couldn't possibly speak to her, but she feels strongly it's God's will that the group go back to Utah. She just totally manipulates him into it becoming his idea and God told him to go back to Utah. So they return there.
40:33 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm.
40:34 Georgia Hardstark? Smart, yeah. Okay, so all this debate with the police about releasing the sketch of a man they know as Emmanuel goes back and forth for months. Finally, in February of 2003, the Smart family essentially goes rogue. They're like, we're not doing this anymore. This is our daughter's life.
40:49 Karen Kilgariff? Good.
40:50 Georgia Hardstark? Without involvement from law enforcement, they host a press conference, releasing the sketch to the media.
40:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
40:56 Georgia Hardstark? Which is so bold, but it's like, there are no other leads.
40:59 Karen Kilgariff? And for the people who are saying, hey, we knew who did it.
41:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
41:02 Karen Kilgariff? Like, not based on fact or anything, just this is better for us.
41:05 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
41:06 Karen Kilgariff? And now that guy's dead, so this is over.
41:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
41:08 Karen Kilgariff? Well, then if it's over for you, we get to go rogue.
41:11 Georgia Hardstark? And our daughter is literally saying, that's who it was.
41:14 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
41:14 Georgia Hardstark? We believe her, you know? It's just, that has to be the frustration of having a name and no one doing anything about it. I mean, I can't even imagine.
41:23 Karen Kilgariff? So insane, but also so great that I'm sure as kind of LDS members, rural followers, community-based, like, be respectful.
41:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, authority.
41:33 Karen Kilgariff? You know, authority, whatever. It's like, well, we did that for one year with you.
41:37 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. Where has it gotten us?
41:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
41:39 Georgia Hardstark? So they release the sketch to the media, and then John Walsh, none other than John Walsh, discusses what's going on on Larry King, which was a huge show at the time.
41:50 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
41:50 Georgia Hardstark? And on John Walsh's own show, America's Most Wanted. So it gets picked up. John Walsh had been in touch with the Smart family since the beginning of the disappearance. He offers support because he'd been through a similar situation, having had his son, Adam Walsh, as we all remember, kidnapped and murdered. I covered the Adam Walsh case in episode 242, if you want to listen to that. So it gets out, and immediately after this, relatives of both Mitchell and Barzy come forward and are like, that's who that is. They reveal their identities immediately. They know who it is. The FBI figures out that Mitchell has been arrested for shoplifting while in California. So they know the group has traveled there.
42:33 Georgia Hardstark? And those relatives give photos of both Mitchell and Barzy in their white robes, like exactly how they look to the press. And Barzy's children go on the news specifically to talk about how they believe both of them could be capable of kidnapping Elizabeth. They're like totally on the side of finding Elizabeth. Wow. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. On March 12th, 2003, two separate couples in Sandy, Utah, about 30 minutes north of Salt Lake, call either the police or the America's Most Wanted Hotline to report sightings of Mitchell and Barzy and a young girl in disguise who they now think is Elizabeth. The group's been walking along the side of the road. They're no longer wearing their robes, possibly because those photos had been circulated.
43:17 Georgia Hardstark? Now they're wearing normal clothes, but Elizabeth is wearing a gray wig, sunglasses, and a shirt tied around her head like a handkerchief, sort of. So police find them and stop them, this group of people. Mitchell tries to prevent them from talking to Elizabeth by themselves, but the officers are now like, we know who this is. Yes. Like, they're pretty certain. They finally separate each of them. The officer, speaking to Elizabeth, tries to get her to say who she is for like 45 minutes. She denies being Elizabeth Smart. I remember that. How traumatized she is. Yes. Yeah. From the initial story breaking.
43:54 Karen Kilgariff? And they said it, it felt like it was messaged in the media like
43:57 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
43:58 Karen Kilgariff? she did this.
43:59 Georgia Hardstark? Can you believe this? She wanted to be there, maybe.
44:01 Karen Kilgariff? Just that tone was so insane.
44:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. He's still in earshot and she's afraid of that he'll hear her. Elizabeth later says, quote, "Of course I wanted to be rescued, but I had spent the past nine months being very abused. At that point, I still felt very threatened. My captors were still right there."
44:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
44:20 Georgia Hardstark? End quote. Finally, the officer interviewing Elizabeth says that he'd like to give her one more chance to say who she is. He asks, "Are you Elizabeth Smart?" She is still afraid of Mitchell hearing, and so she answers with that quasi biblical language, saying, "Thou sayest." And the officer takes that as a yes.
44:39 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I hope that the process has changed
44:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
44:42 Karen Kilgariff? since that time.
44:43 Georgia Hardstark? Just yelling, "What's your name? What's your name?"
44:44 Karen Kilgariff? Separate rooms.
44:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
44:45 Karen Kilgariff? Put them in a car if you think this is who these people are.
44:48 Georgia Hardstark? Give the victim a victim's advocate instead of just saying, "Who are you?" Or, you know?
44:53 Karen Kilgariff? Right, or just get the people they're with away
44:56 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
44:56 Karen Kilgariff? from them
44:57 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
44:57 Karen Kilgariff? in a secure way, like make it clear that we're like not gonna, "If you tell us, you'll be over here."
45:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
45:03 Karen Kilgariff? And they'll be over there.
45:05 Georgia Hardstark? Is you'll be safe.
45:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
45:06 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. Elizabeth's family is of course overjoyed to have her back, and it seems like the entire nation is just like so relieved, like it just doesn't happen
45:15 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
45:15 Georgia Hardstark? that she comes back alive, that anyone comes back alive after being kidnapped.
45:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
45:20 Georgia Hardstark? So it's just this big celebration that it finally happens. John Walsh says, quote, "We finally got one back."
45:26 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
45:26 Georgia Hardstark? End quote. I know. And even after all she's been through, Elizabeth recovers. On the day after she gets home, her family throws her a 15th birthday party to make up for the ones she missed. You know, she doesn't go. She stays, she stays in her room understandably, like just totally overwhelmed, but she does send down a poster thanking everyone for coming.
45:46 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
45:46 Georgia Hardstark? I'm sure it's just like too much.
45:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
45:49 Georgia Hardstark? And then she goes on to go to high school. She goes to college. She has friends. She goes on dates. She goes to dances. And generally, she enjoys her life. She goes on her LDS mission trip. She gets a prime assignment in Paris as she deserves. I know, like, don't, just please let it be easy for her.
46:07 Karen Kilgariff? The elders were like, guess where she is gonna go.
46:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
46:11 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
46:11 Georgia Hardstark? And there she meets the man who will ultimately become her husband.
46:14 Karen Kilgariff? On her trip?
46:15 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Wanda Barzey, plead guilty to kidnapping in 2009. And I mean, these people in court were just disruptive. And it was just the photos that kept coming out on the news were just so disturbing. She's sentenced to 15 years in prison, and she's since been released. But just last month, she was rearrested for entering a public park in Salt Lake City, which she's not allowed to do as a registered sex offender.
46:39 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, wow.
46:40 Georgia Hardstark? Though Barzey issued a teary apology to Elizabeth at her trial. During this most recent arrest, she said she was commanded by God to enter the park. And so Elizabeth has publicly talked about how troubling it is that Barzey is still justifying her actions in this way. You know, it's not an apology when you are not taking accountability for what you did. It's, there's no apology there.
47:01 Karen Kilgariff? And you're kind of back to your old thinking of like, the Lord. But also, yeah.
47:07 Georgia Hardstark? I know. Not long enough.
47:09 Karen Kilgariff? Well, just, I think the one thing I was gonna say that's in the positive, it seems like the authorities in Salt Lake City are tracking Wanda Barzey's actions. So the second she steps into a public park and she's arrested, where it's like, I don't know, you don't usually get that kind of response normally, where it feels like they're like, do not let them rest.
47:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Keep an eye.
47:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
47:29 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. That's good.
47:30 Karen Kilgariff? Maybe.
47:31 Georgia Hardstark? Mitchell's case doesn't go to trial for about eight years. Due to numerous delays and competency hearings, he puts on a big show in court. He sings, calls out to Jesus and spins and just like, tries to be, generally tries to be ruled mentally incompetent to stand trial. It doesn't work. In 2011, he's finally found guilty of interstate kidnapping and unlawful transportation of a minor. He's sentenced to life in prison. Many members of the Smart family are still deeply connected to their LDS church, but Elizabeth is actually not the only member of her family who has talked about being harmed by strict interpretations of church ideologies, as we talked about the virginity aspect.
48:13 Georgia Hardstark? In 2019, Ed Smart, Elizabeth's dad, publicly comes out as gay and he and Lois separate. This is, of course, painful for the family, but Elizabeth gives a statement to the press expressing her unwavering love and support for both her parents and now does a lot of work with the LGBTQ youth in Utah and challenges the idea, which is still common in the church, that being gay is something a person can change. Meanwhile, Elizabeth Smart has become this incredible victims advocate. She is so admirable. I mean, I can't say enough good things. She's advocated for the passage of several laws that streamline investigations into missing children. She and her family also started the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, which
48:56 Georgia Hardstark? advocates for victims of sexual assault and connects them with resources. It's a, I checked out the website, it's elizabethsmartfoundation.org and there's a lot of resources there. Check that out. Elizabeth continues to advocate against that idea, or even just teaching children that their worth is connected to their perceived virginity. And she speaks all over the world and, you know, she's incredible. She now dedicates herself to teaching the children, quote, "You'll always have value and nothing can change that." And that is the story of the kidnapping and survival of Elizabeth Smart.
49:31 Karen Kilgariff? And thriving of Elizabeth Smart. I love that that is now the current story about her. And if she gets to tell it, if she gets to say, this is what happened to me, this is what my life is like now, like, there's nothing better than that.
49:45 Georgia Hardstark? No, totally. But also, like, it's incredible, if you can't do that, if you were a survivor and you can't yet, that's okay, too. There's so many ways to be.
49:53 Karen Kilgariff? Completely. It's been 20 years. So it's like, that's a person who took their time in doing that, built her life back up by her own standards. It's really cool and really impressive. That was great.
50:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Thank you.
50:06 Karen Kilgariff? So episode, once again, picked a story. They gave us everything.
50:11 Georgia Hardstark? Hell, yeah.
50:13 Karen Kilgariff? You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
50:15 Georgia Hardstark? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray?
50:18 Karen Kilgariff? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.
50:28 Georgia Hardstark? If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.
50:39 Karen Kilgariff? Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.
50:43 Georgia Hardstark? Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.
50:48 Karen Kilgariff? I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just spray it on your feet and suddenly you're asleep and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.
51:03 Georgia Hardstark? And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?
51:06 Karen Kilgariff? How dare you call my feet stinky?
51:08 Georgia Hardstark? For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye.
51:15 Karen Kilgariff? We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.
51:19 Georgia Hardstark? You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.
51:28 Karen Kilgariff? Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.
51:34 Georgia Hardstark? Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.
51:38 Karen Kilgariff? That's why there's Solace Health.
51:40 Georgia Hardstark? Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.
51:46 Karen Kilgariff? Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.
51:52 Georgia Hardstark? They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.
51:58 Karen Kilgariff? Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.
52:04 Georgia Hardstark? Advocacy improves outcomes and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.
52:08 Karen Kilgariff? Eligibility varies by insurance plan.
52:10 Georgia Hardstark? Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services, must be 18 years or older.
52:15 Karen Kilgariff? Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.
52:18 Georgia Hardstark? It takes about two minutes and it's covered by insurance.
52:21 Karen Kilgariff? That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder. Goodbye. Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.
52:29 Georgia Hardstark? Pair your salty side with something sweet with the new Salted Caramel flavor from Kachava.
52:34 Karen Kilgariff? Kachava is a whole body shake with plant-based protein, fiber, greens, and other nutrients to help fill nutritional gaps.
52:41 Georgia Hardstark? Just two scoops provide complete nutrition your body craves with protein, fiber, greens, and so much more.
52:48 Karen Kilgariff? Their new Salty Caramel flavor combines sweet caramel with a little salt, so you get that salty-sweet balance along with the nutrition Kachava is known for.
52:56 Georgia Hardstark? When the day demands your salty side, fuel it with plant-based protein that actually tastes delicious.
53:00 Karen Kilgariff? I really do love Kachava, and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.
53:12 Georgia Hardstark? It's such an easy way to get everything you need, and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.
53:16 Karen Kilgariff? So embrace your salty side.
53:17 Georgia Hardstark? Go to kachava.com and use code MFM for 15% off your first order.
53:22 Karen Kilgariff? That's Kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM. Goodbye.
53:36 Karen Kilgariff? All right, it's another batch of Honking Hoorays, presented by Hyundai.
53:40 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. You go first?
53:41 Karen Kilgariff? You want me to?
53:41 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
53:42 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, this first one says, hashtag hooray. "My partner just graduated with his PhD in mechanical engineering, joining the ranks of less than 1% of black men to earn this degree."
53:53 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
53:53 Karen Kilgariff? "A whole lot of work went into it," and then there's that emoji of exhaling.
53:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
53:58 Karen Kilgariff? "But I'm thankful to have been along for the ride. Happy grad season." That's right, it's dads' and grad season. "At Phoenix Harris." Congratulations.
54:06 Georgia Hardstark? That's amazing.
54:07 Karen Kilgariff? Mechanical engineering?
54:08 Georgia Hardstark? No small feat.
54:09 Karen Kilgariff? Come on.
54:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, that's great.
54:11 Karen Kilgariff? Hooray.
54:12 Georgia Hardstark? Right. Okay, this is from our email. "Hi, MFM. I just finished listening to the hoorays from Manny and Rachel, the public school librarian and teachers' union VP, and I just wanted to write in to back them up. I am a public school psychologist, and my main role is assessing and determining appropriate support for kids with learning disabilities, intellectual disabilities, emotional and behavioral needs, autism, ADHD."
54:36 Georgia Hardstark? Trauma, etc. It just fills me with hope to hear from other listeners just buckling down and doing the work in these times where the government is asking us to reduce or remove our help in the realm of diversity, equity, and inclusion, DEI, which is my world. So my hooray is this MFM community of amazing people doing the work to be the good in this world when the world is trying to beat us down. #Resist. Love you, Erin.
55:03 Karen Kilgariff? Erin.
55:04 Georgia Hardstark? That was epic.
55:05 Karen Kilgariff? Erin, great job.
55:06 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
55:07 Karen Kilgariff? And hooray to you.
55:08 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
55:09 Karen Kilgariff? Keep up the good work. Okay. The subject line of this email is "An Unemployed Hooray." "I'm currently listening to episode 473 and developing film from a solo backpacking trip through the Rockies in my kitchen sink."
55:21 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
55:22 Karen Kilgariff? Solo in the Rockies.
55:23 Georgia Hardstark? Solo Rockies kitchen sink.
55:25 Karen Kilgariff? I'd make it four hours and then I would dig a hole. "I was recently fired from a job which ironically I had drafted a letter of resignation for one week prior. I guess the feeling was mutual." It says, "Now, as I intermittently agitate my developing tank in and out of the warm bath, I'm struck with an amusing thought." You know what that means, right? Because your sister's a photographer. "I'm struck with an amusing thought. For years, I psyched myself out pursuing my real dream of becoming an adventure photographer, as if the last five years of sustaining a steady diet of misery at a job I hated was so much easier."
56:00 Georgia Hardstark? You can't do it.
56:01 Karen Kilgariff? "As I reflect on that trip and the 16 miles I marched up and down a mountain with a 35-pound pack, I can't help but think what a cakewalk that was in comparison."
56:10 Georgia Hardstark? That's amazing.
56:11 Karen Kilgariff? So true. "So maybe now, as week by week I'm filled with the palpable joy you two have created by doing what you love."
56:17 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, thanks.
56:19 Karen Kilgariff? "I can try joy this time, too." Wow. Hooray for the universe constantly forcing me to choose courage. Kay. What's that from me?
56:28 Georgia Hardstark? Kay.
56:29 Karen Kilgariff? Kay.
56:30 Georgia Hardstark? And now I get to read hoorays from a hooray.
56:34 Karen Kilgariff? From me.
56:35 Georgia Hardstark? In front of a lot of people.
56:36 Karen Kilgariff? That's incredible. Good work, Kay.
56:38 Georgia Hardstark? That's amazing. Okay. This is email, "Hooray/What Am I Even Doing? I'm happily spraying out my baby's cloth diapers because after seven years of planning, changing life habits, and saving up, my wife and I were finally financial stable and mentally (question mark) stable enough to have our first baby. So hooray for stability and sperm donors."
57:00 Karen Kilgariff? Hey.
57:01 Georgia Hardstark? "Much love, Gina She/Her."
57:03 Karen Kilgariff? Gina.
57:04 Georgia Hardstark? Ah.
57:05 Karen Kilgariff? All the hurra's are covered in that one.
57:07 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
57:07 Karen Kilgariff? That's incredible. I thought they were, I thought it was gonna be more like a, "I'm gonna be grateful for spraying out my child's cloth diaper instead of fully repulsed by it."
57:17 Georgia Hardstark? No. Yes, like, I should say hooray to this because I, this is what I wanted.
57:21 Karen Kilgariff? Great one. Okay, this one, it says, "Hooray," this is an email, it says, "Teen leadership is the future." Are you ready for this?
57:28 Georgia Hardstark? I'm a teen, let me hear it.
57:30 Karen Kilgariff? "I'm a teen inside. I got to take seventeen students, from seventh graders to seniors, to a statewide leadership conference. It was two days filled with workshops by teens about everything from fundraising to teamwork. My favorites were 'Rip Up Your Cool Card,' and then in parentheses it says, 'To be cringe is to be free.'"
57:49 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
57:49 Karen Kilgariff? Thank God.
57:50 Georgia Hardstark? Lucky for us.
57:52 Karen Kilgariff? "And the token emo kid."
57:56 Karen Kilgariff? The token emo kid in, like, title case.
57:58 Georgia Hardstark? It's like the Taran, oh my God, I love it.
57:59 Karen Kilgariff? And then in parentheses it says, "Making activities that are fun and safe for everyone. I was completely filled with joy and peace to see hundreds of teenagers who are kind, intelligent, and committed to making the world a better place. I love being a teacher, and seriously, the kids are all right."
58:15 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
58:15 Karen Kilgariff? That was from Teddy.
58:16 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my God.
58:17 Karen Kilgariff? A report from Teddy that the kids are okay.
58:19 Georgia Hardstark? True, those teenagers.
58:20 Karen Kilgariff? "Help us, please, teenagers."
58:23 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, my hooray is that on April 24th, I got to celebrate one year since my craniotomy.
58:28 Karen Kilgariff? What?
58:29 Georgia Hardstark? At twenty-three, I unexpectedly had a grand mal seizure after experiencing left-sided migraines that grew more frequent. This seizure led to them finding a grade-two arteriovenous malformation in my brain. AVMs are usually not discovered until they rupture or cause a stroke. I am a hypochondriac who always swore I was going to have a stroke every time I got a migraine. Joke's on everyone because I was partially correct about that.
58:52 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you were, you were right.
58:55 Georgia Hardstark? You're not overdramatic.
58:56 Karen Kilgariff? No.
58:57 Georgia Hardstark? "I am so lucky that I am alive and healthy and suffering no lasting effects from my seizure, surgery, or AVM. If you are experiencing migraines or other neurological issues, please..."
59:08 Karen Kilgariff? You're my neurological issue.
59:10 Georgia Hardstark? If you are.
59:11 Karen Kilgariff? If you have a problem.
59:13 Georgia Hardstark? Please reach out to a medical professional. It may save your life. I want to shout out the University Hospital main campus neuro ICU nurses. They are my sweet baby angels and do not get enough credit. Stay sexy and get your noggins checked. Page P.
59:26 Karen Kilgariff? Wow, congratulations on surviving a neural cranial.
59:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
59:31 Karen Kilgariff? That's serious. Good job.
59:33 Georgia Hardstark? That's it.
59:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, we did it.
59:34 Georgia Hardstark? All right, thank you guys for tuning in. Thank you for listening. Thank you to Hende for presenting these honking hoorays.
59:40 Karen Kilgariff? And stay sexy.
59:41 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
59:42 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
59:44 Georgia Hardstark? Elvis, do you want a cookie?
59:53 Georgia Hardstark? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin. Email your hometowns to [email protected] . Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.
1:00:28 Karen Kilgariff? Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.
1:00:33 Georgia Hardstark? With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.
1:00:39 Karen Kilgariff? You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.
1:00:42 Georgia Hardstark? Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.
1:00:47 Karen Kilgariff? Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be. Goodbye.
1:00:55 Georgia Hardstark? You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.
1:00:57 Karen Kilgariff? Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.
1:01:00 Georgia Hardstark? Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.
1:01:05 Karen Kilgariff? If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.
1:01:10 Georgia Hardstark? Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.
1:01:18 Karen Kilgariff? Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.
1:01:21 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.
1:01:26 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
1:01:28 Speaker 03 Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.
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