Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 476 - Sprinkles and Googly Eyes About this episode This week, Georgia covers the Amistad trial and Karen tells the story of the dog crate prison break.
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Transcript 15,758 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This is exactly right.
0:06 Speaker 00 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.
0:10 Karen Kilgariff? When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.
0:16 Speaker 00 And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.
0:23 Karen Kilgariff? This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.
0:27 Speaker 00 Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.
0:31 Karen Kilgariff? Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.
0:35 Speaker 00 Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.
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1:06 Speaker 00 Goodbye.
1:24 Speaker 00 Hello.
1:25 Karen Kilgariff? And welcome.
1:26 Speaker 00 To my favorite murder.
1:27 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hardstark.
1:28 Speaker 00 That's Karen Kilgariff.
1:29 Karen Kilgariff? We're simply trying to podcast. That's all.
1:32 Speaker 00 You let us live.
1:33 Karen Kilgariff? It's all we want to. Maybe this would help. Am I just doing a little?
1:37 Speaker 00 If you started doing a new thing where you put a paper clip as a hairpiece, a little hair clip?
1:41 Karen Kilgariff? Just to?
1:42 Speaker 00 It's actually cute.
1:43 Karen Kilgariff? Does it? Wait, hold on. I'll just hide it slightly.
1:45 Speaker 00 Oh, my God. It's actually cute.
1:45 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:46 Speaker 00 It looks like you could sell that for 30 bucks at like a cute store.
1:49 Karen Kilgariff? Think so?
1:50 Speaker 00 That's cute.
1:51 Karen Kilgariff? Hey, designers. Get on this. I'm the curator.
1:54 Speaker 00 Paper clips are the new hair clip.
1:56 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that makes me think of like when I used to just put a random safety pin on my shirt.
2:00 Speaker 00 Punk rock.
2:01 Karen Kilgariff? Just but like Catholic school punk rock. I was like, this isn't allowed, but I swear to God.
2:07 Speaker 00 I put one through my eyebrow in junior high.
2:10 Karen Kilgariff? How'd it feel?
2:11 Georgia Hardstark? It was so superficial, you know, it wasn't, it was like skin. It wasn't like a deep piercing, but I thought it was fucking cool.
2:17 Karen Kilgariff? Did you have to ace it before and after?
2:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
2:20 Karen Kilgariff? And then smoke to Capri? What was the day like? Walk us through that day.
2:24 Georgia Hardstark? I got sent home from school. Immediately.
2:27 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, oh, you did it at school?
2:28 Georgia Hardstark? I did it before school, got there, got sent home immediately.
2:32 Karen Kilgariff? Ladies and gentlemen, this was the 90s.
2:35 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, it sure was.
2:35 Karen Kilgariff? Where eyebrow piercings were not common.
2:38 Georgia Hardstark? No.
2:39 Karen Kilgariff? I see the girls these days with their septum piercings, like it's every other girl doing a TikTok where I'm like, this would never have been the trend I would have guessed, would have caught on the way it does.
2:48 Georgia Hardstark? Do you think it's weird that, I don't think it's weird, but it's funny that tongue piercings haven't come back? Like everything else and like the kids these days are like, uh, no dude, like that's even Jinkos are okay, but fucking tongue piercings?
2:59 Karen Kilgariff? Tongue piercings are like, it's so incredibly dangerous.
3:02 Georgia Hardstark? It's so dumb.
3:03 Karen Kilgariff? It's just for you and like, is it a kind of like, I'm having sex presentation?
3:08 Georgia Hardstark? I think there's probably a connotation there of that, but it's also just like, I'm punk rock. I definitely, I had done it 15. It was.
3:17 Karen Kilgariff? You pierced your tongue?
3:18 Georgia Hardstark? I got it pierced at 15. Yeah.
3:20 Karen Kilgariff? You're like, I did not do it myself.
3:22 Georgia Hardstark? Did not do that myself. No, and I still have the scar, you know, the whole bump from it. It's really, I have to fucking use my tongue scraper real hard on it every morning.
3:30 Karen Kilgariff? That's so funny to do it and just think about it. Just think about being 15.
3:34 Georgia Hardstark? To get back at your mom for unknown reasons. You really showed her.
3:38 Karen Kilgariff? I know some of the reasons. I'll stand by as you recount them and I will witness. I will witness.
3:42 Georgia Hardstark? There are reasons.
3:43 Karen Kilgariff? There's real good reasons to pierce your whole goddamn head.
3:49 Georgia Hardstark? All right. What do you got? Anything going on in your neck of the woods?
3:52 Karen Kilgariff? Not really. I mean, just this hair. I feel like when I see my hair, there's pictures of us when we were in Chicago and my hair looked furious and like it was dying at the same time.
4:03 Georgia Hardstark? I think it's all you and your, and in your, in and on your head.
4:06 Karen Kilgariff? In and around my head.
4:07 Georgia Hardstark? Well, I had said about the hotel we stayed at, but they gave me a hairdryer from like 1985. So my hair was a fucking rat's nest. But you were like, you had like a high end hairdryer.
4:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, mine had multiple settings for cool. You know, when it can go cool?
4:23 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:23 Karen Kilgariff? You're like, this is an incredible product.
4:24 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
4:25 Karen Kilgariff? But I think my hair doesn't like being blown dry. I think I just am in that realm.
4:29 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
4:30 Karen Kilgariff? Of like, it's like, can you just leave me alone for five seconds?
4:33 Georgia Hardstark? That's easy. That's easier than blow drying.
4:35 Karen Kilgariff? For sure. Well, and just sitting across from you, I'm like. Your hair is the done version of what my hair is supposed to be, but it can't get there. It just won't go.
4:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it takes a lot of product and straightening and
4:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:46 Georgia Hardstark? Things and prayers and.
4:48 Karen Kilgariff? What's your favorite product these days that you've been using to get ready? Do you have any recommendations?
4:52 Georgia Hardstark? With my hair?
4:53 Karen Kilgariff? Anything.
4:54 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God, there's so fucking many.
4:56 Karen Kilgariff? Something you love.
4:57 Georgia Hardstark? Wait, let me think. What do you love?
4:59 Karen Kilgariff? Well, I have a, you know, Korean toner pad that I'm using that I can tell the difference is getting rid of like spots on my face.
5:08 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, wow.
5:09 Karen Kilgariff? And it's just the Jiu toner pad. It's it's orange and green with big writing. This is J I Y U.
5:15 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
5:16 Karen Kilgariff? Very expensive, but you can wait for them to go on to flash sale.
5:19 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
5:19 Karen Kilgariff? But like usually a thing of toner pads is nineteen dollars and these ones are like fifty two.
5:25 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
5:25 Karen Kilgariff? But they actually work.
5:26 Georgia Hardstark? I know. Okay, then I have one that's also expensive, but it works. The Color Science.
5:31 Karen Kilgariff? SPF?
5:31 Georgia Hardstark? SPF that it's white and then it turns.
5:33 Karen Kilgariff? I just bought that.
5:34 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's like, there's very few times Vince goes, your skin looks good because he just doesn't think about it, you know? But when he does do it, I'm like, what's on it? Because whatever it is, it's fucking working.
5:43 Karen Kilgariff? He's your ultimate, he would know.
5:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, like if he, you know, because he's a dude, he doesn't pay attention a lot. But when he compliments me, I'm like, what is it right now that he's complimenting? And it's usually the this Color Science SPF that turns tan when you put it on or whatever.
5:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it literally adjusts to, I mean, this skin tone is impossible to find base for, and I got that.
6:02 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
6:03 Karen Kilgariff? And put it on and rubbed it and was like, it's actually doing it.
6:06 Georgia Hardstark? The color it's supposed to be, yeah.
6:07 Karen Kilgariff? It's great. Boom. And then you're wearing your SPF, but you have makeup on.
6:10 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
6:11 Karen Kilgariff? One layer.
6:12 Georgia Hardstark? Good SPF.
6:12 Karen Kilgariff? Out the door.
6:15 Karen Kilgariff? God.
6:17 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
6:18 Karen Kilgariff? We have a podcast network.
6:20 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, we have a podcast network.
6:21 Karen Kilgariff? There's all kinds of things going on in it. We like to tell you about them. Do you want to hear some now?
6:25 Georgia Hardstark? It's called Exactly Right Media.
6:26 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's true, too. I never do this part.
6:29 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, first up on Wicked Words, journalist Joseph Cox tells a story of how the FBI tricked high-level criminals into using an encrypted messaging app that the FBI secretly created. Turns out they didn't even need to make one up because some people will just fucking...
6:44 Karen Kilgariff? They'll get right on there.
6:45 Georgia Hardstark? They'll just text anything to anyone.
6:46 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, clearly. It doesn't need to be private.
6:49 Georgia Hardstark? No. It's all from Joseph's book, Dark Wire, and you're gonna want to hear every detail on Wicked Words.
6:55 Karen Kilgariff? Joseph Cox, Dark Wire, I want to read that. Over on Bananas Curtain Scotty, cover the most important news of the week, the weird news, including the first ever snake found in Ireland.
7:05 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
7:06 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, they've got snakes in Ireland now.
7:08 Georgia Hardstark? No.
7:09 Karen Kilgariff? That's how we know it's all over.
7:10 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, Jesus.
7:11 Karen Kilgariff? It feels like a real problem for my people.
7:13 Georgia Hardstark? On Ghosted, Roz talks to comedy icon and Drag Race legend, Bob the Drag Queen. They get into sleep paralysis, Ouija boards, and the time Bob had a psychic encounter with a ghost.
7:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. Bob the Drag Queen, one of the funniest performers and stand-up comics around right now. So, so talented. Also, over on I Said No Gifts, Bridger keeps the show rolling even after Edie Patterson.
7:36 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
7:37 Karen Kilgariff? The great Edie Patterson, hilarious comedic actress. She's from the Righteous Gemstones, that's how you probably know her.
7:43 Georgia Hardstark? She's so good in that.
7:44 Karen Kilgariff? And she comes and forces Bridger to accept a gift. He only asks for one thing and no one will give it to him.
7:49 Georgia Hardstark? That's right. And finally, a quick reminder for our people out there who like to shop, but you hear our ads and they're quick and you're driving and you don't have the promo codes. We give you all the promo codes on our website at myfavoritemurder.com/promos. So you'll have Murder 30, you'll have the links to the websites. We'll tell you everything.
8:07 Karen Kilgariff? Whatever it is.
8:08 Georgia Hardstark? At myfavoritemurder.com/promos. So it just helps the show out a little bit if you are gonna buy something from these ads, just to like, let them know we sent you.
8:15 Karen Kilgariff? You're like, hey, I'm gonna get an Article Couch, but can't I get 20% off? Maybe my good friends Karen and Georgia might enable... Oh, this was the thing I was gonna show you. Somebody sent this in. Natasha, I believe this is on Instagram and it's na dot ta dot sha dot eighty six. She wore the Pearl Heart shirt. I shall never submit shirt to the day of action protest and tagged us. And I just, that's kind of what that shirt was invented for, I feel like. Love it.
8:47 Georgia Hardstark? Kind of protest. Looks amazing. Maybe we'll post it, but thank you. Make sure you tag us when you're wearing your merch. Just like, what are you even doing right now while you're wearing our merch? We'd love to see it.
8:56 Karen Kilgariff? Also, I like that you said the people united cannot be divided.
9:00 Georgia Hardstark? Love it.
9:01 Karen Kilgariff? Getting it done. Thank you Natasha for showing up to that.
9:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
9:09 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
9:15 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with Simply Safe.
9:18 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, Simply Safe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house. You're out of town and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and Simply Safe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there. They already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
9:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with Simply Safe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. Seventy percent off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com/mfm.
10:01 Karen Kilgariff? That's simplysafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.
10:09 Georgia Hardstark? Simply Safe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.
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12:14 Speaker 00 All right, I'm first. Okay. Sit back. I'm gonna tell you a story. Please do. I'm gonna keep this paperclip in my hair while I listen. I'm gonna cold open this. Okay.
12:27 Georgia Hardstark? And I'm gonna start in the fall of 1839.
12:31 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, fuck, yeah.
12:31 Georgia Hardstark? You know you love it.
12:32 Karen Kilgariff? I do.
12:33 Georgia Hardstark? We're in the New York harbor, which means it's bustling. There's hundreds of ships from all around the world unloading cargo and travelers. I mean, what a time and place.
12:44 Karen Kilgariff? Imagine the sails.
12:45 Georgia Hardstark? Ah, the sails and all the languages being spoken, all the different people and hustle and bustle and the actual bustles.
12:52 Karen Kilgariff? Little ca- bustles? That must be what hustle and bustle is from.
12:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yeah.
12:57 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
12:58 Georgia Hardstark? Must be.
12:59 Karen Kilgariff? Also, there's like six-year-old boys smoking pipes, working those ships. Longshoremen, children.
13:05 Georgia Hardstark? Longshoremen, children.
13:07 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, that's so true.
13:08 Georgia Hardstark? Among these thousands of people is a teenage sailor in the British Navy named James Covey. James is black and was originally born in the West African country of Sierra Leone. But as a child, he had been kidnapped by Spanish traffickers, intended to be sold and enslaved. So James then endured the horrific experience of being loaded onto a ship with hundreds of other captives. But because by this point, the transatlantic slave trade was already illegal, British forces captured that ship and freed the captives. So James spent the rest of his childhood being raised by a British missionary in Free Town, the capital of Sierra Leone. And in his teens, he joined the British Royal Navy.
13:48 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
13:48 Georgia Hardstark? So he is there at that time and place.
13:50 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, got it. That's a huge adventure unto itself.
13:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
13:53 Karen Kilgariff? What a story.
13:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. That morning in New York Harbor, James and another sailor with a similar backstory, Charles Pratt, they hear something they haven't heard in years. Remember all those languages being spoken? They hear someone counting from one to 10 in Mendy, which is the language of their childhoods in Sierra Leone, something they very rarely have ever hear nowadays in the, you know, British Army and here in the US.
14:19 Karen Kilgariff? Can I tell you about a TikTok that makes me cry every time?
14:21 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
14:21 Karen Kilgariff? Have you seen it? It's the guy, and I'll look it up. He can speak so many languages. So he stands in like popular tourist areas. And as people walk by, he says, excuse me, where are you from? And sometimes people like don't want to talk to him. And essentially, they'll say. And then he immediately starts speaking their language. And the way their faces change. He was, the one I saw this morning is two women from the Republic of Congo, I believe. And he immediately starts speaking their language. And they're like, what have you? And it's like this thing where he's so good at it. It's like he can speak more than just a couple phrases and switch. So someone will be like, well, but I was raised in Turkey. And then he starts to speak. And it's like.
15:04 Georgia Hardstark? They just feel like connected all of a sudden.
15:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, and they're like travelers and they're tourists up to that point that are kind of isolated. It's beautiful.
15:12 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, that's amazing. So they hear this one to 10 being counted in their childhood language. They make their way through the crowd to try to find the source of the counting. The person who's counting in this language is a white American man. And they like excitedly and curiously approach him to find out who he is and how he knows their language.
15:32 Karen Kilgariff? And what TikTok is.
15:35 Georgia Hardstark? It turns out that the man is a linguistics professor. So that checks out from Yale named Josiah Gibbs. And James and Charles, it turns out because of this moment are going to be key players in saving about 40 lives. And will help set America on the course to eventually abolish slavery. This is the story of the Amistad trial. You know it?
15:57 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, I've seen the movie.
15:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, okay, you've either seen the movie, you were there that one day. They talked about it in elementary school and that's like, you just don't hear about it much.
16:05 Karen Kilgariff? No, not at all.
16:06 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So yeah, there's a 1997 Steven Spielberg movie called Amistad that portrays the story. Historians say that what it gets right is the horror of the transatlantic slave trade. They show that with haunting accuracy. However, the movie does kind of travel into some white savior territory.
16:24 Karen Kilgariff? Of course.
16:25 Georgia Hardstark? So we're going to try not to do that. So it's not a perfect movie. And just so you know, I also watched a 1995 documentary called The Amistad Revolt. It seems like it was made for like high school children or something like that. And the other source is the Supreme Court decision from this case. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. All right, so let's back up from the harbor a month or two. We're at the end of August in 1839. There are reports off the coast of New York of a sighting of a strange-looking schooner or ship. It appears to have been at sea for months. The sails are in tatters, there's seagrass growing out of the hull. It's just a weird sight. And mariners who have gotten close enough to the ship report that the crew appears to be comprised of about 30 black men who speak no English, French, or Spanish.
17:10 Georgia Hardstark? It only, what's presumed to be a language from somewhere on the continent of Africa that white Americans in the mid-1800s can't identify. So that's just out of place, for sure, already. Eventually, the ship winds up off the coast of Montauk on the tip of Long Island, and that's where it's intercepted by the US Brig. Washington, a ship that's tasked with surveying the coast. So they, like, basically pull over the ship. When that ship's lieutenant boards the schooner, which is called the Amistad, he finds that in addition to the group that other people have already seen, there are also two Spanish men on board, two Spanish white men on board. They're named Jose Ruiz and Pedro Montez. So Ruiz and Montez claim that they own everyone on board and that they were overthrown in
17:55 Georgia Hardstark? an uprising by these people. A modern audience, of course, will instantly recognize that these two men are human traffickers. Yeah. The lieutenant brings the Amistad and its captives across the Long Island Sound to New Haven, Connecticut. And at this point, the use of enslaved laborers has been outlawed in almost all of the northern states, but is still legal in Connecticut. So what a coincidence that they ended up there. A federal district judge named Andrew Judson charges the men with mutiny and murder. And there's four children there as well, and they're held as witnesses, which just basically means they're prisoners as well. They're all put in jail in Hartford, Connecticut. So Ruiz and Montez give their version of what happened, the two Spaniards.
18:36 Georgia Hardstark? They say that they bought all of the people, 39 adults and four children, in Cuba. They were transporting them on the Amistad to a sugar plantation on another part of the island. And one night during this trip, the men broke free and used tools for cutting sugarcane to kill the captain and the cook. They let Ruiz and Montez live under the condition that they sail them back to Africa, which was towards the direction of the Rising Sun. So they agreed and did that, but at night, the Spaniards would reposition the ship so that it actually made its way north to the United States, where it was eventually pulled over. This journey takes two months and 10 of the enslaved people die from dwindling supplies of food and water, so.
19:19 Speaker 00 So it was like in the daytime, they would make them go this way and then at night, they would redirect that way so that.
19:24 Georgia Hardstark? They were sneaking, yeah.
19:25 Speaker 00 Okay.
19:26 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And like, you know, if you don't have a map in front of you or like know how to read the sky for signs, you don't know where you are.
19:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:34 Georgia Hardstark? Right? So Ruiz and Montez's story, it seems fishy for a big reason. They're being very vague about where this group of people originally came from. At this point in time, the use of enslaved people for labor is still legal in parts of the US and in Spanish colonies like Cuba, but the kidnapping and trafficking of new people from Africa has been illegal in both the United Kingdom and America for 30 years. It's been illegal in Spain for the past 10 years, though the Queen of Spain kind of turns a blind eye to it. But as you know, from watching the movie, the Queen of Spain is 11 years old, as played by Anna Paquin.
20:12 Speaker 00 Really? I don't remember that part.
20:14 Georgia Hardstark? And in fact, Spain has a well-known and extensive illegal human trafficking market. And at the very center of it is a man named Pedro Blanco. In 1822, Pedro had set up what becomes known as the LomboCo Slave Fortress on the coast of Sierra Leone. And there, he works out deals with some local leaders to hire kidnappers to bring people to him from the interior of the region. So this isn't people who, you know, lost a war. This isn't people who were born into slavery. These are people being kidnapped from their normal, everyday lives.
20:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
20:48 Georgia Hardstark? Their regular lives being kidnapped because they're worth money
20:52 Speaker 00 Right.
20:52 Georgia Hardstark? to these people. He also has Spanish employees who do this as well. And once kidnapped, his victims are held in chains at this sprawling facility, which is at the mouth of a river, before being put on ships to be brought to the Spanish colonies where they are to be sold. So they're still doing the slave trade, even though this is illegal. Everyone knows this is happening, especially Spanish authorities, but Sierra Leone is a British colony and British authorities actually do try to enforce abolition. But the problem is that no one's been able to figure out the precise location of this fortress. So while Britain is trying to attempt to like root out this illegal trafficking or this kidnapping, the American government and many white Americans don't really pay attention or care.
21:34 Karen Kilgariff? Hmm, seen that before.
21:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So there's this contingent of American abolitionists, many of whom are motivated by their Christianity, who want to make people confront the evils of slavery. One of these abolitionists attend one of the first court proceedings for the Amistad Party and find out that none of the group appears to understand English or Spanish. So this leads him to suspect that they have been illegally trafficked from Africa. That's, you know, if they had been born into slavery, they would speak some English or Spanish. That means that Ruiz and Montez actually have no legal claim over them because they're asking to get their ship back and their property back, which are these people who were aboard the ship who rebelled. So this guy sees it as an opportunity to make more Americans confront the barbarism
22:20 Georgia Hardstark? and horrors of enslaved labor. This abolitionist coordinates with others from other northern cities and they put together a fund for the Amistad Party's legal representation. They hire a lawyer named Roger Sherman Baldwin. He'll later go on to be the governor of Connecticut. The initial charges of murder and mutiny are actually dismissed because of a jurisdiction issue, but Ruiz and Montez argue that the Amistad group are their property and should be returned to them. And they have their own lawyers arguing this case. And at the same time, Spain argues that both the ship and the people are stolen property belonging to the Queen.
22:54 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
22:55 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
22:56 Karen Kilgariff? Because it's so late in the timeline, right? 1840.
22:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Well, it's a little before the Civil War.
23:02 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, truly. But just like, it's not the 1600s.
23:06 Georgia Hardstark? Right, absolutely. The US attorney appointed by President Martin Van Buren is arguing this case on behalf of the US and Spain. Of course, the Amistad Party's lawyers argue that they are free people who were kidnapped and escaped from their captors, so they should be released. The federal district judge orders that the Amistad Party remain in custody until this issue is settled, and five members of the group ultimately die while being held in jail. In Ruiz and Montez's story, they claim that the mutiny on the Amistad was led by a man named Sengbay Pia. And he's often referred to as Joseph Cinque, but that's the name the Spanish captors gave him, so we're going to continue to call him by his real name, which is Sengbay.
23:48 Georgia Hardstark? So it's true that Sengbay does seem to be in more of a leadership role within the group, but of course, his lawyer can't communicate with him because he doesn't speak any English. Nobody does. He's not even sure what language they speak. So Baldwin hires Josiah Gibbs, the Yale linguistics professor we started our story with. Yep. He goes into the jail and basically is able to communicate through like signs to have the captives teach him to count from one to 10 in their language. And they figure out what's going on and they they do that. So with the knowledge of one to 10, this guy is like, great, goes to a very busy place, a busy port where lots of languages are spoken, and starts loudly counting one to 10 in that
24:31 Georgia Hardstark? language until someone actually does it, approaches them. Brilliant. James Covey and Charles Pratt, and are able to come back with him to the jail. To become the translators. To be the translators. God, that's good. I know. So as soon as the group meet these new translators, they are overjoyed because they can finally tell their side of the story. Very quickly, the captive stories emerge, and three of their testimonies are used in the court proceedings, including that of Sengbay, the leader. And their story like gives us a crystal clear historical record of the 400-year stain on humanity that was the transatlantic slave trade. So Sengbay had been a rice farmer.
25:15 Georgia Hardstark? He was living in a community of bit inland in Sierra Leone. He had a wife, he had three children, and one day, he was walking on the road near his village, and he was attacked by four men who had been hired through that network overseen by Spanish traffickers. They just stopped this family man and kidnapped him. He's eventually brought to a vast facility on the coast, that one we talked about early, the LomboCo Slave Fortress, and he and hundreds of other prisoners are held chained in pairs so that they can't run away. Sangbe and all of the others from the Amistad were then forced with a group of 500 other people onto a Portuguese ship. Sangbe says that the ceilings below the deck were only four feet high and all the people were chained together.
25:57 Georgia Hardstark? There was no room to move at all. He says the majority, and you know, you see these old drawings from back then and it's legit like sardines. You just take as many spots as can be filled with people laying down as possible chained together in horrid conditions.
26:15 Karen Kilgariff? The scene from Amistad is the thing that I thought when you first started talking about people being on those ships. Cause it is so, I just like when we use words like horrible, it's not the right word. It's like, it doesn't, it doesn't feel expansive enough or like deep enough, but it's like, it's just a human nightmare.
26:35 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. Sangbe says that the majority of the people on board had been women and children and he says they were given small amounts of rice to eat and they were beaten, of course, and that many of the prisoners died while on board this ship. This horrific journey known as the Middle Passage would have taken weeks or months and the movie Amistad does portray this part with chilling accuracy. So it is a good one to watch for that. Sangbe's story then aligns with what Ruiz and Montez have been saying. Those who survive the journey disembark in Cuba where about 50 of them are trafficked to Ruiz and Montez, basically sold to them. They bring them aboard the Amistad to sail to a sugar plantation on another part of the island, as I said.
27:18 Georgia Hardstark? And again, they're chained below deck and again, they're given very small amounts of food and water. Another man tells the translator, James, that in desperation, he had attempted to steal an extra sip of water and was severely beaten. They had alcohol and salt applied to his wounds to make them hurt even more. He also says that the cook on board the ship told the group that they were eventually going to be murdered and eaten. So they are terrified, obviously.
27:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
27:46 Georgia Hardstark? Many of them believed that they were going to be eaten and it seems like maybe the cook was just fucking with them or it was true, I don't know. But given everything that already happened, why wouldn't they believe that?
27:56 Speaker 00 Yeah.
27:57 Georgia Hardstark? You know what I mean?
27:58 Speaker 00 Exactly.
27:59 Georgia Hardstark? It aligns. So there's even more pressing sense of desperation within the group to escape. So one night, Sing Bay pries a loose nail out of the ship, out of the boards, and uses it to pick the lock on his shackles. He frees the rest of the men in the group and they find the sharp tools that are used for cutting sugarcane.
28:15 Speaker 00 Yes.
28:16 Georgia Hardstark? And they just use these tools, they take over the ship, they kill the captain and the cook in the struggle, but they keep Ruiz and Montez alive because they know how to sail the ship and tell them to take them back home. Which of course, as I said, they followed instructions during the day, but not at night. So at this point now, it's 1840, a little over 20 years before the start of the Civil War, and there are about 2.5 million enslaved laborers living in the United States, almost entirely in the South. They are almost all ancestors of people who were kidnapped from Africa and brought to America between the mid 1400s and 1808, when the Atlantic slave trade is supposed to have been abolished. But of course, there's also been a trickle of newly trafficked people brought illegally
29:00 Georgia Hardstark? from Africa, as I said. So when these harrowing accounts from the Amistad Party are made public, more and more people speak out on behalf of the group, arguing that they should be allowed to go home. This causes President Martin Van Buren to freak out, essentially, because it had been his call to keep the Amistad Party jailed, and it was his US attorney who was arguing against the Amistad Party in court, saying the group should be returned to Cuba as property of Spain. So it was against what the president was pushing for. Van Buren is from upstate New York and doesn't even have strong feelings about slavery, but he needs Southern votes to be re-elected.
29:39 Georgia Hardstark? And so he can't be seen as the president who recognized the humanity of enslaved people because it will turn the public opinion more in favor of abolition. So he has to have a hard stance on it.
29:53 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:54 Georgia Hardstark? You know?
29:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, because it's big business. Because I need to be elected or I'm not a real man. It's like, but it's money, it's money and power all the time and then pretending that these aren't people.
30:04 Georgia Hardstark? Right. At this point in time, there's also a gag order in Congress preventing petitions against slavery, and that's preventing a lot of debates about it on the national stage. And so this is a somewhat rare moment when the actual like pure evil is shown in government proceedings. It's almost like they're able to use this, the abolitionists, as their speech of why this is wrong, something they couldn't just do of their own accord. Yeah. So even though the situation for the Amistad Party is different than for enslaved people born in America, the case is seen as a referendum on the use of human captives as unpaid laborers. So a verdict in favor of the captives would force people to reckon with the humanity of black people, which would potentially push the country closer
30:49 Georgia Hardstark? to civil war. But the case with the testimony from the Amistad Party, translated by James and Charles, is basically a slam dunk. Baldwin demonstrates to the court that the Amistad Party was born in Sierra Leone, and that Ruiz and Montez actually showed false paperwork saying they had been born in Cuba. The judge rules that they are free people who have been illegally kidnapped under the laws of the US and Spain, and orders that they be returned home. Hmm. But let's not celebrate yet. No. President Van Buren appeals the decision, first to the Circuit Court, which upholds the district court's decision, and then to the Supreme Court. And it's almost like good that he does this because it gets a bigger platform than it would have if that had been the end of the trial and they had been sent home. Yeah.
31:34 Georgia Hardstark? Seven out of the nine Supreme Court justices are from the South and in their own households. They themselves enslaved the descendants of people who were trafficked from Africa. So what the fuck do they care? Right. The abolitionists asked former president and current Massachusetts Congressman John Quincy Adams, you know him, to represent- Paul Giamatti. Right. To represent the group in court. By this point, the Amistad group have been in Connecticut for about a year, and many of them have learned some English. An 11-year-old boy in the group named Kalii writes to the former president personally, asking how he would feel if someone carried his children and friends away to another country. He writes, "All we want is make us free." It's just like this really heart-wrenching letter. Yeah.
32:19 Georgia Hardstark? John Quincy Adams takes the case, which appears before the Supreme Court in February of 1841. Adams, who has always been known for his oratory, is that right?
32:29 Karen Kilgariff? Sure, like speech making?
32:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, well, he speaks for fucking hours.
32:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
32:34 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it is, demonstrating the absolute lawlessness of the Amistad's party's captivity. Like, just in general, how fucking illegal the whole thing is to begin with. The Supreme Court finds in favor of the captives, saying in their decision that as free people, they were entitled to do whatever it took to defend themselves and escape their captors.
32:52 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yes.
32:53 Georgia Hardstark? It's almost like, you know, if you are being held captive in a basement by some serial killer and you have to kill him to get out, then they're like blaming you for killing someone?
33:01 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
33:01 Georgia Hardstark? No.
33:02 Karen Kilgariff? It's like the stand your ground law.
33:04 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
33:05 Karen Kilgariff? But it's reversed, because then it's not a big white guy standing in his doorway. You have to, you have to reckon with the fact that it's like, can't anybody defend their own life?
33:14 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
33:15 Karen Kilgariff? And it is their life.
33:16 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
33:17 Karen Kilgariff? That they stole.
33:17 Georgia Hardstark? They kidnapped them from their families. I mean, yeah, it's shocking that they actually, that they were found in favor of them. It's really amazing.
33:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
33:25 Georgia Hardstark? Especially in 1841.
33:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
33:28 Georgia Hardstark? So the Amistad Party, they go to live in Farmington, Connecticut, a town that's been referred to as the Grand Central Station of the Underground Railroad. So they build housing for them there and so they can raise money to secure their passage back to Sierra Leone. There's not a ship that they can just put them on and return them. As part of their fundraising efforts, members from the group from Sierra Leone go to speak at abolitionist fundraisers, telling their stories and reading from the Bible and singing hymns. So in 1842, the group, which is now 35 people, they are able to secure enough money to get their passage back to Sierra Leone, along with several American missionaries, because now they have to convert them to Christianity there.
34:08 Karen Kilgariff? That's always gotta be in the mix.
34:10 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it's like, that's gotta-
34:11 Karen Kilgariff? Very important.
34:12 Georgia Hardstark? Unfortunately. So once they get there, some stay in Freetown in Sierra Leone, the big city, establishing the missionary and a new school. One of the children from the group, Sarah Margru Kinson, actually returns to America and winds up attending Oberlin College as one of the first black female students, and she had been on the Amistad.
34:31 Karen Kilgariff? Incredible.
34:32 Georgia Hardstark? Others from the group return to their families and villages, which has to be amazing, and the British Navy finds and destroys the L'Ambocco Slave Fortress finally in 1849.
34:42 Karen Kilgariff? Good.
34:43 Georgia Hardstark? Then the Civil War begins in 1861, as you know, so 20 years after the Amistad Group returns home. But the abolitionist groups that consolidated around the Amistad case will continue to pressure Americans to confront the evils of enslavement and will go on to form organizations that still exist today. This includes some of the first black colleges and institutions that trained some of the leaders of the civil rights movements. So it's all connected. And that is the story of the Amistad Trial, when a group of brave survivors helped America gain a toehold on its still faltering path to justice.
35:18 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
35:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
35:20 Karen Kilgariff? Nice final line.
35:22 Georgia Hardstark? That was all Ali. Ali Elkin, my researcher.
35:24 Karen Kilgariff? Amazing job, Ali. It was so good. And Georgia.
35:28 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you.
35:28 Karen Kilgariff? I love that story. It's such a good, it is actually kind of like a true adventure story. It's just that the stakes are so horribly high.
35:37 Georgia Hardstark? This is true crime, like, what's the word?
35:41 Karen Kilgariff? Swath of history?
35:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. It's a true crime thing where you're like, I'm not into true crime. And you're like, but so many things are true crime that you don't think are and that have to do with history and that have to do with humanity and, you know, people finding a way. And I think that's just, this is a perfect story for that.
35:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, nice one.
35:57 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you. That fit real good. Yeah.
36:01 Georgia Hardstark? The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.
36:05 Karen Kilgariff? Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.
36:10 Georgia Hardstark? That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.
36:14 Karen Kilgariff? Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.
36:40 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.
36:57 Karen Kilgariff? That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.
37:04 Georgia Hardstark? SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.
37:07 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
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39:23 Karen Kilgariff? When you started this story, I was just like, what's this story gonna be that I'm gonna be taking a left turn from? Okay. So, there's never been a further left turn than the topically. We both know this story. Okay. It starts around 10:30 a.m. on February 12th of 2006, outside of the Lansing Correctional Facility, a state prison in Lansing, Kansas. It's a snowy, blustery day, and 48-year-old Toby Young is pulling up to the prison in a van. She's a married mother of two sons. She's got a sweet and familiar disposition. Writer Michael J. Mooney, who will write up a big old article for The Atlantic that we use as one of the primary sources in telling this story. Michael J.
40:07 Karen Kilgariff? Mooney will report that she has, quote, "a wry smile and auburn curls. She could be your neighbor, your librarian, your aunt." What if she's all three of those things? So, Toby's out the prison today because she runs a dog adoption program that partners, right? I don't, I don't know for sure. Yeah. She partners rescue dogs with inmates at the facility, who then foster and train the dogs until they're ready to be placed in their forever homes. But before she passes through the final gate into the prison yard, Toby stops, she cuts her van's engine, and waits. The inmates lined up with their dogs are out in the wind and the snow, so they're impatiently stomping their feet and waving for her to hurry.
40:50 Karen Kilgariff? Actually, the weather is bad enough that if it was any other day, Toby would have rescheduled this, just due to bad weather. But she has to be here today, and the reason why she has to be here has her heart racing. Toby takes a moment to search the prison yard. She sees the thing she's looking for, as a guard rolls out a covered metal farm wagon into the prison yard. Toby arranged to have this wagon brought out on her visit today. She told them that it was loaded with odds and ends that she'd left behind on previous visits, like leashes and bowls, and maybe a dog crate or two. But panic washes over her as she sees the wagon's tires buckling under the weight of its cargo. It's obviously carrying more than just a few pet supplies.
41:34 Karen Kilgariff? Toby takes a deep breath. She starts the van again and she proceeds through the final gate and into the prison yard. She greets the small crowd of inmates waiting for her. And as she loads the dogs into her van, she hopes that the sound of them barking, being placed in their crates and the inmates' goodbyes will draw attention away from this approaching wagon. With her stomach still in knots, Toby watches as the clueless guard loads that heavy wagon onto her van, knowing full well that in this moment, if one tiny thing goes wrong, her entire life, a life where she's always done everything according to plan, will be destroyed. This is the story of Toby Young and the infamous Dog Crate
42:19 Karen Kilgariff? Prison Break.
42:20 Speaker 00 I don't think I know the details of this at all.
42:22 Karen Kilgariff? The main sources of the story is Toby's memoir, Living with Conviction, an article that ran in The Atlantic in 2020 by writer Michael J. Mooney, and a 2019 episode of Criminal that Toby actually gets interviewed by Phoebe Judge on that's really great and powerful.
42:41 Speaker 00 Wow. Living with Conviction, that's a good fucking name for your book.
42:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, right? Living with conviction.
42:46 Speaker 00 I love that.
42:47 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, so, we'll start at the beginning. Toby Dora is born in the late 50s in Kansas City, Kansas. She grows up in a big Catholic family. This is so sad. When she's just five years old, her father is involved in a terrible accident doing yard work outside their home. He's clearing and burning a bunch of branches and his clothes catch on fire. And of course, he's badly burned. He spends eight months recovering in the hospital.
43:11 Speaker 00 Oh my god.
43:12 Karen Kilgariff? And it's of course, a terrible stressful time for the family. Five-year-old Toby, who's the eldest daughter of seven children, rises to the occasion. As we know, that eldest daughters always are forced to do, even if they're five years old.
43:27 Speaker 00 Right, right.
43:27 Karen Kilgariff? Five. With her father spending so much time fighting for his life in the hospital and of course, her mother often needing to be there with him, Toby becomes a rock for her family. Michael J. Mooney reports, quote, Toby felt it was her responsibility to take care of her younger siblings. She wanted to solve whatever problem was in front of her. She changed diapers, packed lunches. She's five. I can't, I can't. Thinking about Nora when she was five years old and all the things, she couldn't close a goddamn cabinet. Yeah. And still can't to this day, Nora. It's just little kids adapting to the situation that life puts them in. Right. You're so grown up. That's mean. That's like, well, thanks, I had trauma as a child. I was forced to be grown up. I was forced. I wanted to live in the dipshit world that all those other kids were living in. Didn't get to.
44:12 Karen Kilgariff? No. Sorry, who am I yelling at? She changed diapers, packed lunch, we're still mid, quote, packed lunches and tried to provide stability in a stressful time. She was less like a sister than like a third parent, one of her siblings would later tell the Wall Street Journal. Yes. So fortunately Toby's dad is eventually able to leave the hospital. He's still struggling with serious injuries. He has limited movement in his arms, but he does have to go back to work to support his family. So he winds up finding a job with the railroad as a machinist. And he often tells his kids to, quote, "deal with what life gives you." So that's kind of the family motto. Yeah. I don't think you need to be telling that to your five-year-old daughter who ran the fucking house while you were gone. She's already doing that.
44:57 Karen Kilgariff? She has six children right now. Michael J. Mooney writes, quote, Toby internalized the lesson. She was a perfectionist, the type who spoiled the curve for her younger siblings. She never got drunk, never tried drugs. In high school, she was the president of the pep club and dated the star of the baseball team. So she was going to make it work. Yeah. She was everything for everybody. Yeah. Okay. So then when she's 20 years old, she marries her high school sweetheart, who is also from a religious family. And the way she describes it, this marriage is more about meeting expectations and less about romance. Yeah. She'll later say, quote, "I never really dated anyone else. We got along. We didn't fight, so we might as well get married." Yeah. So many. That's how it was. How so many families began.
45:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And then they're like, why did everyone get divorced in the eighties? And it's like, because that's how people were. Because that was supposed to be their ex-boyfriend. Yes. But they married. I keep spitting at you. That's okay. But they get married instead. In your early twenties, that's what happens. Yes. And also this idea of like, you have to or your aunt will be upset. He's nice. And we never fight. We never fight. Hey, nothing wrong. Cause we have no passion. Nothing wrong with fighting? Cause there's no passion. Get it out. Toby and her husband mostly follow the path that's expected of them. They buy a house close to Toby's parents. They start a family. They have two sons. And meanwhile, the cracks are starting to emerge in Toby's marriage.
46:22 Karen Kilgariff? Her husband seems to be a decent man who provides for the family, but the two are emotionally disconnected and are more coexisting than operating as a healthy, loving couple. Toby will later say, quote, "There were several times in our marriage that I realized this has not been a good choice, but I didn't know how to get out. I didn't know how to make a change." Instead, Toby relies on the old mantra from her father, "Deal with what life gives you." So she does this by keeping herself incredibly busy. She's very attentive and an involved mother who's always there for her sons. But she also works a day job at a utility company and she takes college classes at night. Can you imagine doing any of those things? Even one of those things. One is too many.
47:06 Karen Kilgariff? There's a reason that we podcast professionally. Yeah, truly. So before long, Toby has graduated with top honors from college with a double major in business administration and accounting. Damn. So not the fun classes. She didn't go as a theater major. No. She went and really got it done. Wow, she had two children and a fucking day job. Yeah. Good for her. She and her husband meanwhile seem to spend less and less time together, especially as their boys grow up. Then in the late eighties, when Toby's just 30 years old, she gets a job as a project manager with Sprint. Remember good old Sprint? Oh, yeah. They used to really be a big part of our lives. They really were. She ends up working there for nearly 15 years before being laid off during the dot com bust of the early 2000s.
47:49 Karen Kilgariff? So Toby is forced to pivot. She's always loved animals, especially dogs. So she takes a job as a technician in a veterinary clinic. Then one day in 2004, she's 47 years old and she notices a lump on her neck.
48:04 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
48:05 Karen Kilgariff? She asks one of the vets to take a look because she's at work.
48:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
48:08 Karen Kilgariff? And he says, you have to have that looked at immediately. When she does, a doctor informs her that she has thyroid cancer.
48:15 Georgia Hardstark? Whoa.
48:16 Karen Kilgariff? Looking back on the diagnosis, Toby will eventually tell Phoebe, judge of the great podcast Criminal, that quote, "You know, even though thyroid cancer is very treatable, hearing your name after the word cancer is devastating."
48:28 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I can't imagine.
48:29 Karen Kilgariff? "It causes you to stop and take stock of your life. I realized that I could go at any minute and I didn't want to leave this earth and not have done anything to have made it a better place."
48:39 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
48:40 Karen Kilgariff? First of all, mother of two young boys.
48:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
48:42 Karen Kilgariff? Why are you acting like?
48:44 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
48:45 Karen Kilgariff? You did, you have.
48:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I just like, it's a huge fear of mine, the cancer thing, where it's just the suddenly you have to be this brave fucking person when really it's the most terrifying thing.
48:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
48:55 Georgia Hardstark? That could happen to a person.
48:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
48:57 Georgia Hardstark? What one could say that they have to confront their mortality.
49:01 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
49:02 Georgia Hardstark? At 47, like.
49:03 Karen Kilgariff? And feel like it's almost over.
49:06 Georgia Hardstark? Right. If it's over, are you happy with what you brought?
49:10 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
49:11 Georgia Hardstark? You know, answer that.
49:12 Karen Kilgariff? Answer that right.
49:12 Georgia Hardstark? Most people would say no.
49:13 Karen Kilgariff? Right now, 23 year old that's listening to this, it's a good, I mean, I have to say, there was a lot of death in our family when I was 12 years old. Three different people died when I was 12 and it was really crazy mind blowing and there were people that were close to us. And literally that day forward, I was like, I'm not doing fucking anything I don't want to do. And it was that kind of like, what's the point?
49:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
49:36 Karen Kilgariff? If this whole thing is just to find out one day or drop dead one day or get cancer one day or lose your mind one day, then what's this part for?
49:45 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
49:46 Karen Kilgariff? Like.
49:46 Georgia Hardstark? That's a big lesson to learn at 12, let alone at our age.
49:51 Karen Kilgariff? I was looking for an excuse though, because I was like, I'm really tired of doing what other people tell me.
49:56 Georgia Hardstark? Anyway. Here's why, here's why now, not that I have defiance disorder.
50:00 Karen Kilgariff? Or anything like that.
50:01 Georgia Hardstark? Nothing, no.
50:02 Karen Kilgariff? No.
50:02 Georgia Hardstark? It's just real.
50:03 Karen Kilgariff? Except for that I was like, okay, anyway.
50:05 Georgia Hardstark? I'm a Buddhist.
50:05 Karen Kilgariff? Look where I got to. So in this life-changing moment for Toby, she actually successfully treats her thyroid cancer, thank God. But her energy is gone. The treatments leave her confined to a recliner. And in that downtime, she ends up finding a TV show that inspires her in a way that she doesn't expect. And it's a TV show called Sell Dogs. So this is a quote from her later. She says Sell Dogs was a program that ran on Animal Planet for a few years. It was set inside of a prison. They had dogs in there. The inmates were training them and they were taken out for adoptions. I love dogs. That's kind of an understatement. I thought that would be my dream. I could make a difference if I could do something like that.
50:50 Karen Kilgariff? If I could start a prison dog program, I know I could change the world.
50:53 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
50:54 Karen Kilgariff? So she's so excited by this idea that she tells her husband. And this part broke my heart like I almost cried in my office a little bit. He suggests Sell Dogs is made up for television. That's his fucking answer to his wife who's beating cancer. And is saying, hey, with that in the rearview, here's what I'm inspired by.
51:16 Georgia Hardstark? A thing we learned in couples therapy, Vince and I, is that like, it takes nothing for you just to sound supportive. It takes nothing.
51:25 Karen Kilgariff? Not one fucking thing.
51:26 Georgia Hardstark? They're not saying, I'm doing this tomorrow and putting our life savings into it. They're dreaming. And to support that dream, because I'm a dreamer and Vince is a realist. Yep, I'm not going to move to fucking Spain or whatever. Like, let's just talk about how fun it would be. I'm not going to go do it. Yep, can we just have an imagination session? Of how fun something can be. It takes nothing out of you to do that.
51:50 Karen Kilgariff? Could have sworn this was going to be about Vince's hardcore band. But I guess it's about.
51:54 Georgia Hardstark? I support all of it. I'm a dreamer. I'm like, yes, hardcore band, do this.
51:58 Karen Kilgariff? Do this. Well, and also I think that's a really good lesson to learn kind of for the relationship overall. But I think there is this thing, when you're in a relationship with a person who isn't interested in the connection.
52:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, right.
52:13 Karen Kilgariff? In that way, where it's like, I'm telling you about a thing that lights me up.
52:17 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
52:18 Karen Kilgariff? Why doesn't it light you up that I'm lit up?
52:20 Georgia Hardstark? Totally.
52:20 Karen Kilgariff? You fucking asshole.
52:22 Georgia Hardstark? Yes, it takes nothing from you.
52:24 Karen Kilgariff? To do that. To even just appreciate your partner's happiness or excitement. Right, exactly. But Toby isn't discouraged. You know why? She's been married to this man for quite some time. She's not surprised. Also, this is just her side. I don't want to get too, I love to be like shitty or whatever. Sure. This man, at the end of the day, is also a victim of this story. Yeah. So whatever their relationship was, after the fact, one person talking about what it used to be like sucks as well. Yeah. Okay, so Toby's plan, basically from all of this, is to convert their barn into dog kennels so they can take in and foster stray dogs. And she's so into it, she starts redoing it, and her husband joins her eventually. Okay. So full credit to that.
53:07 Karen Kilgariff? Thanks, sir, that was already there, and it's the least anyone could ask of you. Anyway, Toby begins to take in strays and get them adopted. So by the summer of 2004, this business and enterprise is going so well, she puts up a website to advertise it. And a few days later, someone from the Lansing Correctional Facility reaches out to her. Hmm. They asked Toby if she'd like to collaborate on a program within the prison, and Toby is elated. Her dream to create her own version of cell dogs is actually coming true. Wow. So she got the idea, she pitched it, no one was gonna help her. She's like, I don't care, I'm gonna do it myself. She does it herself, the people join after the fact. Yeah. When it's real and material and there's something there. Yeah. And then she gets herself there. Well.
53:52 Karen Kilgariff? So at this point in her life, her sons are in their twenties, they're out of their house. So she throws everything she has into this program. She's gotten her college degrees. Yeah. She's done it all, so she's now doing this fully, and it turns out to be a huge success. It's called Safe Harbor. It becomes the largest prison dog program in the United States at the time. Wow. So she doesn't just do it. She takes her accounting and her business and all her things, and she makes it happen. They ultimately place more than a thousand foster dogs in permanent homes. Oh my god, that is so amazing. It's big. Toby ends up leaving her job at the vet clinic because she's spending upwards of 15 hours a day on this. Wow.
54:31 Karen Kilgariff? New project, visiting animal shelters, looking for dogs to foster, taking them to vet appointments, placing them, working with their new foster inmates who live with and train the dogs from their cells. So she's doing every part of it. She loves the work, she finds it deeply fulfilling. But it makes the disconnect that she has with her husband of 28 years even more obvious.
54:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
54:54 Karen Kilgariff? She tells Phoebe Judge, quote, "I probably spent as much time inside the prison as an officer that was on duty. It became my entire life. My husband resented it, but we didn't have a good marriage. It was just one more way that I did my own thing and he did his own thing. I never did come home and talk to him about anything that was going on because he just wasn't interested in it."
55:14 Georgia Hardstark? That's the worst part of the relationship, which I've definitely been in in past relationships of like, you go have this great time with friends or whatever, and then you're like, oh, I guess I gotta go home now. You're like, not looking forward to it.
55:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
55:25 Georgia Hardstark? That's how you fucking know.
55:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Like, you gotta have somebody, even if they're waiting under a blanket, watching a show they don't want to turn off.
55:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
55:33 Karen Kilgariff? When you come in and they're like, "How was it?"
55:36 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
55:36 Karen Kilgariff? They're actually asking you.
55:38 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
55:38 Karen Kilgariff? If you can't even have that fair minimum.
55:40 Georgia Hardstark? Right. No, I'm excited every time I get to go home and tell Vince, talk shit to Vince.
55:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Yeah. That's the idea.
55:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
55:48 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. As we're leading to, Toby starts to feel very lonely, and she yearns for a more loving and passionate relationship. But she's also experiencing what she describes as a self-made prison of perfectionism. Basically, she's become resentful of her careful, cautious approach to her life. And as fate would have it, this is when she meets a 27-year-old inmate named John Minard, who is enrolled in the foster dog program.
56:14 Georgia Hardstark? She's just like ripe to meet a hot fucking convict, right?
56:17 Karen Kilgariff? Hell, yes. Who is like, "Maybe I will manipulate you into doing a bunch of things."
56:22 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my god.
56:23 Karen Kilgariff? John's six foot four redhead.
56:26 Georgia Hardstark? Tatted?
56:26 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, yep. Tattoos. Who Toby describes as, quote, "Swaggling everywhere he went in the prison, like he owned the place or he was in charge."
56:35 Georgia Hardstark? Damn.
56:36 Karen Kilgariff? You'd just be like, "Who's that? Who's that?" You know my song, "Who's That?"
56:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. That's what you'd be singing.
56:44 Karen Kilgariff? "Who's that?" Toby soon learns that John is incarcerated for his involvement in a carjacking when he was a teenager, where a man was shot to death. So even though he didn't fire the shot that killed the victim, he was convicted nonetheless.
56:58 Georgia Hardstark? So she's able to like empathize a little bit.
57:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
57:01 Georgia Hardstark? Enough to like, "Well..."
57:02 Speaker 00 To like talk herself out of it being a problem.
57:05 Karen Kilgariff? He's not really, he's not technically a murderer.
57:09 Speaker 00 Right.
57:10 Karen Kilgariff? And also a six foot four redhead with tattoos swaggering around.
57:16 Speaker 00 I mean, quit it.
57:17 Karen Kilgariff? And fucking teaching of people how to behave.
57:20 Speaker 00 Get out of here.
57:21 Karen Kilgariff? Into your dream project that you are now the kind of boss of.
57:25 Speaker 00 Yeah.
57:26 Karen Kilgariff? And also that is having an effect. I don't know if you've ever watched any of those shows or documentaries, but the effect those animals have on inmates in the actual rehab that starts taking place is amazing.
57:38 Speaker 00 That's like half the point.
57:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. So she's a part of that too, which is probably really a beautiful thing to get to see.
57:44 Speaker 00 Right.
57:45 Karen Kilgariff? So Toby's not afraid of John, obviously, probably even maybe just a little bit adds to it. She is immediately captivated by his confidence and their bond deepens after a scary encounter at the prison where one of the men in Toby's program gets angry and actually like comes at her like he might hit her.
58:06 Speaker 00 Oh my god.
58:06 Karen Kilgariff? And John Menard steps in and basically stops it.
58:10 Speaker 00 Come on.
58:11 Karen Kilgariff? From here on out, Toby trusts John, their bond deepens. He starts watching out for Toby. So like when she arrives at Lansing Correctional, he meets her at the prison gate. He sticks with her when she's on the prison grounds. He works alongside her during the various training sessions with the other inmates.
58:28 Speaker 00 Fucking bodyguard.
58:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
58:29 Speaker 00 Hot prison bodyguard.
58:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
58:31 Speaker 00 Bodyguard.
58:32 Karen Kilgariff? I'm like eyes on. Who doesn't want that?
58:35 Speaker 00 No, for sure.
58:36 Karen Kilgariff? So now they're spending a lot of time together and while they aren't allowed to have any physical contact, they come to understand each other on a deeper level. And then in all caps, I just wrote, ugh. Cause it's like, sure.
58:50 Speaker 00 No, it's, yeah.
58:51 Karen Kilgariff? Extenuating circumstances.
58:53 Speaker 00 Circumstances. So many circumstances.
58:55 Karen Kilgariff? So many circumstances.
58:58 Karen Kilgariff? And then Toby's father is diagnosed with stage four cancer. And John offers her emotional support. He tells her things like, quote, "You deserve someone who wants to make you the center of their world." Which Toby describes as, quote, "Like pouring water on a dying plant." Yeah, which is kind of how it is. I think that's like, that's why love bombing is such an effective tool that people use. It's like, and the quickest, fastest manipulation of, "Oh, you seem to be in need of this thing." Well, you're kind of giving something away. So he wasn't falling in love with her, too. He was manipulating her. Well, that's my judgment. Yeah. I'm being judgmental. Okay, so there is no, like, this whole time, well, don't tell me at the end, but... Let's find out together. Okay, because I'm like, maybe they did fall in love.
59:43 Karen Kilgariff? I'm being optimistic about it. I'm so negative, but... To me, it's like... We're at a prison. I know. Where people usually get locked up for being dishonest somehow. Well, yeah, but he, since he's a teenager, he's in his late twenties, he hasn't had any contact or connection with a woman. You want there to be a bad boy, good guy in this? Oh, he's like, oh, his gentleman is coming out because he's like, oh... He's finally able. I'm thinking it's real for now, but let's keep going. That's fun for the movie. So he says that, she says it's like pouring water, he then tells her that he loves her. Toby, who again is a self-professed rule follower, knows that she shouldn't even be entertaining a future with John.
1:00:28 Karen Kilgariff? She shouldn't even be having this conversation with him. But as they talk more and more, it starts to feel real, and beyond that, it feels very nice. Like, she's finally getting something she really needs. Seriously. So what happens now is the obvious next step in the story arc of falling in love with a convicted criminal almost half your age. Yeah. You start planning his escape. Shit. You just have to. Now, here's, I think, the test. Yeah. If all of that happened, and then he's like, "I'll see you in 17 years when I'm here, baby girl." They get married in prison, and she comes to every visitor's thing and... They raise dogs, but that ain't it. So we downshift into third gear. Yeah. And I say that's the thing, or is that upshift? Either way.
1:01:12 Karen Kilgariff? Down, well, we're in fourth, and you go into third. No, I'm saying we're in second, and now we're going up into third, so that we can go down into fourth. Okay, well, and then also, like, I bet it was his suggestion that maybe you should help me get out. Not hers. I think so too. Okay. Because she's a rule follower. Yeah. And a kind of a normal lady that's just like. Yeah. A very tall redhead is giving her very nice attention. Prison break isn't the first thing that she thinks of when she thinks of her life. What she's bringing to the table. She's like, but did you see this wonderful pit bull? Right. That I let you pet? Okay, so all of this brings us back to February 12th, 2006, which is where we started, that blustery, wintry day. Toby's nervously watching the oversized wagon being loaded onto her van. Her heart is racing because, you guessed it, John's hiding in it.
1:01:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. They've sorted it all out. Toby has withdrawn $40,000 out of her 401K. No way. Which is worth around how much? 2004, 40,000? 120. 63,000. Shit, inflation, I don't understand it. I know. These days. John lost 25 pounds so that he could somehow contort his six foot four frame into a cardboard box that could then fit inside a dog crate. I feel like in prison, people need to pay attention. If a prisoner loses a huge amount of weight, they're trying to fit through a pipe. They're trying to fit through somewhere. Yeah. Maybe stand in that crack next to the refrigerator in the wall for a little while. Right. So people stop noticing them. Right.
1:02:40 Karen Kilgariff? Amid all the chaos of that morning, the barking and the dogs being loaded onto the van, no one asks any questions about the wagon or why it's so heavy. So Toby starts her engine and simply drives away like she always does. And as she does, she immediately regrets it. Yeah. But she's so far into this plan and everything about it that she has no idea how to get out of this situation. So she does what she'd normally do, which is drive home and unload the dogs into that barn that's been retrofitted into kennels. And as she starts to do this, she obviously gets John out of his kennel and he start rummaging around the property and he ends up finding two pistols.
1:03:24 Karen Kilgariff? This worries Toby. John convinces her they're just for protection because they have so much money on them. Where are these pistols coming from? It's a farm. Okay. But I mean, he's looking. Yeah. So that's the other thing. They then ditch the van. Toby recently purchased a pickup truck for a few thousand dollars. So they get into that and they drive all night on the backroads to a remote lake house in Alpine, Tennessee, that they've reserved using a fake name. So they basically get out of town immediately. Okay. On the way, John kisses Toby for the first time. And he's the only other person that's ever kissed her. Oh, my god. Besides her husband, who was her high school boyfriend.
1:04:07 Karen Kilgariff? All the excitement, too, and the adrenaline and this kiss. That'd be like the best fucking kiss. The best. Absolutely. On the way to the lake house. Oh, kiss me now. I can't even wait. I did all caps, "Ugh." You did. It's a similar "Ugh," but it's that same kind of thing where it's like, you're scared, it's happening. Was this worth it? I don't know. Oh, no. I mean, all of it. Kiss. So she's still not feeling great, and with good reason. John has taken all the cash. He won't give her the keys to the truck, and then he throws her cellphone into the lake, so she can't call anyone. So the worm turns relatively quickly. Okay. He's also now having angry outbursts when anything goes wrong, like when they get turned around and have to stop at a restaurant to ask for directions. Oh, no.
1:04:52 Karen Kilgariff? Uh huh. You're all in and you've never even driven with him. Yeah. Like, that's a mistake. Yeah. You don't know what, how he talks to waitstaff. Oh, totally. And you're all fucking in to the point where you've withdrawn money out of the 401K. You've just blown up your entire life. But he was so nice in the mess hall. Yeah, but I'd never seen him get angry before. Oh, before, when he was planning on trying to get me to get him out. Right, okay. Okay, so Toby's trying to focus on the good things. Deal with what life has given her in the moment, even as John becomes more reckless. She says, quote, "John was really interested in eating fried chicken and a lot of foods that he wasn't able to get inside prison." Totally understandable.
1:05:30 Karen Kilgariff? He played the guitar and I brought my mandolin with me and he'd play music and we just talked a lot. That lasted for a day or two and then John said, I don't want to just stay in this cabin. I want to go out and see things. Let's do some stuff. End quote.
1:05:42 Speaker 00 Uh oh.
1:05:43 Karen Kilgariff? So this was like, the big romance didn't even last
1:05:46 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:05:46 Karen Kilgariff? two days. So they go out, they take a day trip to Nashville where John shops for guitars. They go watch Walk the Line, the Johnny Cash biopic, Walk the Line at a movie theater. Another time they go on a trip to Chattanooga. They see a movie about lions at an IMAX theater wearing disguises because by this point
1:06:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:06:08 Karen Kilgariff? the headlines have been out. Like, everyone knows there's been a prison escape. The authorities are trying to track them down.
1:06:14 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:06:15 Karen Kilgariff? Toby and John know this because they've seen the papers while they've gone out on these adventures.
1:06:20 Speaker 00 And they know she's in on it. She's not a captive.
1:06:22 Karen Kilgariff? I think so.
1:06:23 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:06:23 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Even still, they keep going out into public. Twelve days after the prison break, the pair visit a mall in Tennessee, now about 100 miles south of Chattanooga, where John buys a copy of Where the Red Fern Grows from a bookstore with Toby's money, of course.
1:06:40 Speaker 00 I loved that movie. I mean, that book when I was a kid.
1:06:42 Karen Kilgariff? It's a sad one.
1:06:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:06:44 Karen Kilgariff? Dog book.
1:06:44 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
1:06:45 Karen Kilgariff? As they're leaving, two police officers just so happen to spot them in the mall parking lot. They are not expecting to see them, but they are actively looking for them in Tennessee because Toby had used the cabin's address when filling out paperwork for their getaway truck. I would recommend to not do that next time.
1:07:03 Speaker 00 No.
1:07:04 Karen Kilgariff? Toby will later comment that she, quote, "wasn't a great criminal."
1:07:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:07:09 Karen Kilgariff? This woman.
1:07:10 Speaker 00 That's okay.
1:07:11 Karen Kilgariff? This woman.
1:07:12 Speaker 00 This misguided woman.
1:07:15 Karen Kilgariff? She got took.
1:07:16 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:07:17 Karen Kilgariff? So now the police have located Toby and John. They call for backup. They quietly tail the couple for around 60 miles as they head back to the cabin in Alpine. As John and Toby approach their rental, they're met with a huge traffic stop. And obviously, the jig is up. John asks Toby what he should do. Being the rule follower that she is, she tells him to pull over so they can surrender to police. But instead of that, John hits the gas, swerves off, weaving through traffic at 100 miles an hour, before eventually taking the truck off-road and slamming it into a tree. Toby is still overcome with regret. She wishes for death.
1:08:00 Karen Kilgariff? Understandable. She survives the crash with just a few minor injuries. So does John.
1:08:05 Speaker 00 What was this fucking plan? Kill them both?
1:08:07 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know, or just like try to get away and do your best and what I mean, it's
1:08:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, there's no plan.
1:08:12 Karen Kilgariff? All of this planning is three quarters planning.
1:08:14 Speaker 00 Sure.
1:08:15 Karen Kilgariff? My least favorite kind.
1:08:16 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:08:17 Karen Kilgariff? I like it when we run through scenarios A, B, C, D, E, and F. But whatever. Escape from jail however you want.
1:08:24 Speaker 00 Do your thing.
1:08:25 Karen Kilgariff? Do your thing. Oh, my favorite clip's coming out. Hold on, reset.
1:08:29 Speaker 00 That look is good. Telling you.
1:08:31 Karen Kilgariff? I like that.
1:08:31 Speaker 00 A little punk. A little riot girly.
1:08:33 Karen Kilgariff? Just a little. But it's like, we're like library punk.
1:08:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:08:37 Karen Kilgariff? As Toby comes to, she can hear John calling out to her, quote, "Are you okay, baby? Are you okay?"
1:08:43 Speaker 00 Aww.
1:08:43 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, that says something.
1:08:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:08:45 Karen Kilgariff? There's a realness to it.
1:08:47 Speaker 00 He did just crash the car himself. But then he wants to know if she's okay. So it's not a great relationship.
1:08:53 Karen Kilgariff? It's not. Look, we can have these kinds of relationships.
1:08:56 Speaker 00 Listen, they're there for a reason.
1:08:58 Karen Kilgariff? Pickable.
1:08:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:08:59 Karen Kilgariff? Don't stay in them.
1:09:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:09:01 Karen Kilgariff? Truly.
1:09:02 Speaker 00 Learn from them.
1:09:03 Karen Kilgariff? Promise that the second he darts away, when, when he says, "What should I do?" And you say, "Pull over." And he fucking goes 100 miles an hour in the opposite direction.
1:09:11 Speaker 00 Yeah. Thank you. Next.
1:09:13 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you. Next. And even if he calls your baby.
1:09:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. Keep on going.
1:09:16 Karen Kilgariff? We're gonna learn. We're gonna learn this time.
1:09:18 Speaker 00 Someday.
1:09:19 Karen Kilgariff? They're both removed from the vehicle, handcuffed, and placed under arrest. Toby, who among other charges, is found guilty of supplying firearms to a convicted felon, gets 27 months in prison for her involvement
1:09:31 Speaker 00 That's it?
1:09:31 Karen Kilgariff? in this jailbreak. Yes.
1:09:33 Speaker 00 I'm sorry. I thought it'd be way more than that.
1:09:35 Karen Kilgariff? It's two years and three months.
1:09:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, but supplying, I mean, yeah, okay. All right.
1:09:39 Karen Kilgariff? For a regular mom.
1:09:41 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:09:42 Karen Kilgariff? Two years in jail.
1:09:43 Speaker 00 That doesn't sound like a lot to me.
1:09:45 Karen Kilgariff? What if you had to do it right now?
1:09:47 Georgia Hardstark? I wouldn't.
1:09:48 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, I'm saying.
1:09:49 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, no.
1:09:50 Karen Kilgariff? It would be a long time if I had to do it. No, for sure.
1:09:54 Georgia Hardstark? For sure, but based on her.
1:09:56 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, no.
1:09:57 Georgia Hardstark? Charges.
1:09:57 Karen Kilgariff? You're right.
1:09:58 Georgia Hardstark? It doesn't seem like an even amount of time for, what's it called? You know, they don't balance.
1:10:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:10:04 Georgia Hardstark? I don't think.
1:10:05 Karen Kilgariff? The thing doesn't fit the thing.
1:10:06 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
1:10:07 Karen Kilgariff? But when love comes into play.
1:10:10 Georgia Hardstark? Right, and I'm not trying to say I want her to be in fucking prison more.
1:10:12 Karen Kilgariff? No.
1:10:12 Georgia Hardstark? I'm just not on the jury and I'm not the judge, but like.
1:10:15 Karen Kilgariff? Well, it almost is like, how do we keep things from happening? Our longer prison sentences, the way to do that.
1:10:20 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
1:10:20 Karen Kilgariff? But I think when love is in the mix.
1:10:22 Georgia Hardstark? Does the punishment fit the crime?
1:10:24 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, she's already been punished by fucking ruining her entire life.
1:10:27 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
1:10:28 Karen Kilgariff? Truly ruining it, and she's out 63 grand.
1:10:31 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, oh, wow, okay.
1:10:32 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, okay. This out of character stunt stuns her colleagues, her friends, and her family members. It's also the straw that breaks the camel's back in her marriage, of course. Which actually, good, like.
1:10:42 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:10:43 Karen Kilgariff? Good.
1:10:43 Georgia Hardstark? You could have done it a lot quieter.
1:10:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. How about just a nice midsize fight at the TGI Fridays?
1:10:49 Georgia Hardstark? And then go home and say, I'm just done.
1:10:51 Karen Kilgariff? I'm done.
1:10:52 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:10:52 Karen Kilgariff? I'm sorry I broke that beer mug.
1:10:54 Georgia Hardstark? You don't have to blow up your entire life to change your life.
1:10:58 Karen Kilgariff? And if you feel that you're following that little opium trail of.
1:11:04 Georgia Hardstark? The roasted chicken smell like you're floating through the air on a cartoon.
1:11:08 Karen Kilgariff? Tall guy pretending to love you.
1:11:09 Georgia Hardstark? Stop it.
1:11:10 Karen Kilgariff? Just, I don't know, grab a relative, get someone to look you in the eyes and slap you across the face.
1:11:17 Georgia Hardstark? Therapy, go to our promo page because there's, there's therapy promos in there.
1:11:21 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
1:11:21 Georgia Hardstark? For sure.
1:11:21 Karen Kilgariff? You can start by texting and then go from there.
1:11:24 Georgia Hardstark? Do it.
1:11:25 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, her now ex-husband tells reporters that her crime has, quote, "affected me physically, mentally, and monetarily." Don't like the third one. And that it was very difficult for her sons, who, quote, "had to say, yeah, that's my mom," end quote. Well, guess what, though? She's not just a mom, she is a human fucking being.
1:11:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:11:44 Karen Kilgariff? And what your sons say about you as a mother is not the whole story about who you are as a person. Who am I talking to?
1:11:50 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know.
1:11:51 Karen Kilgariff? Toby's father dies of cancer just months into her incarceration, which of course is devastating for her.
1:11:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:11:59 Karen Kilgariff? She's also said to this day she has strained relationships with multiple members of her family, of course.
1:12:04 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
1:12:05 Karen Kilgariff? Most tragically, she never gets to mend her relationship with one of her sons, who passes away in his twenties because he gets Hodgkin's lymphoma.
1:12:14 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
1:12:15 Karen Kilgariff? Horrible. John Menard meanwhile gets another 10 years tacked on to his sentence in response to accusations that he manipulated Toby by feigning a romantic interest in her. Let's let him speak.
1:12:26 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:12:27 Karen Kilgariff? He said, quote, "I love Toby and was 100% committed to her. Why did I stay with her once I was out if I was just manipulating? I loved Toby with all that I was."
1:12:38 Speaker 00 I believe it. I'm gonna believe it. Cause I want to.
1:12:42 Karen Kilgariff? Okay. I could just answer the second question, which is you stayed with her because she was the one that had the $63,000.
1:12:48 Speaker 00 And it'd only been like a week.
1:12:49 Karen Kilgariff? And the keys to the truck and then you got rid of her phone. Okay, anyway.
1:12:52 Speaker 00 Well, he got rid of the phone so they couldn't track them. It's not so she couldn't call anyone.
1:12:55 Karen Kilgariff? Where's his fucking phone?
1:12:57 Speaker 00 He doesn't have one.
1:12:57 Karen Kilgariff? Did he not? This is where Sprint comes back into the... No, just kidding. Toby meanwhile says this. Oh, this'll solve it.
1:13:04 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:13:05 Karen Kilgariff? This is not me projecting. Quote, "I think it's probably a bit of both. I do think he cared for me, but I've since come to appreciate that if you love someone, you don't ask them to do something that puts their life in danger."
1:13:17 Speaker 00 For sure.
1:13:18 Karen Kilgariff? Toby, the cooler head prevailing in this situation.
1:13:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:13:22 Karen Kilgariff? But I actually do like that I didn't realize that he said that about her where it's like, hey, I actually was committed to her and I did love her. Cause at least then she has that.
1:13:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's like, it wasn't...
1:13:35 Karen Kilgariff? Not a full scam.
1:13:35 Speaker 00 You're not a complete fool.
1:13:37 Karen Kilgariff? It's not like that. What was that love scammer documentary and the guy kept opening fish restaurants with women's money? Remember that one?
1:13:46 Speaker 00 Bigly.
1:13:47 Karen Kilgariff? It's so confusing and you're just like, what are you doing?
1:13:51 Speaker 00 How?
1:13:51 Karen Kilgariff? How and what?
1:13:53 Speaker 00 Yeah. Having had a divorced mom in the 80s, I can tell you exactly how I watched it happen.
1:13:58 Karen Kilgariff? Right. It's just kind of like...
1:14:00 Speaker 00 There's just so many...
1:14:01 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know, I'll take it.
1:14:01 Speaker 00 Mustaches and fucking volvos.
1:14:06 Karen Kilgariff? And chablis.
1:14:07 Speaker 00 The chablis, warm iced chablis in hotel motel rooms. Oh my God.
1:14:13 Karen Kilgariff? You gotta get it somehow. Okay, over time, Toby moves on from John, though they maintain a friendship.
1:14:19 Speaker 00 Oh, good.
1:14:19 Karen Kilgariff? Because he's in jail. Meanwhile, she completes her sentence, she moves back in with her mother, so she starts over.
1:14:25 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:14:26 Karen Kilgariff? She gets a job in web design and tries to deal with people's stares and whispers when she's out in public. Horrible. Around the same time, she meets a man named Chris, who she says makes her feel safe and supported, and the two get married in 2009.
1:14:40 Speaker 00 Oh, good.
1:14:40 Karen Kilgariff? So she comes back from all of it.
1:14:42 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:14:43 Karen Kilgariff? Love that.
1:14:43 Speaker 00 Happy. You did it to yourself, but I'm still happy you got a happy ending.
1:14:46 Karen Kilgariff? And like, you're fixing it for yourself.
1:14:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:14:48 Karen Kilgariff? That's what life is.
1:14:49 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:14:50 Karen Kilgariff? Just know for a fact that other people have also broken a six-foot-four redhead out of jail in their own way.
1:14:57 Speaker 00 We've all done that.
1:14:58 Karen Kilgariff? Different nouns, same diff.
1:15:00 Speaker 00 Different nouns.
1:15:00 Karen Kilgariff? Everyone does it.
1:15:01 Speaker 00 You know I'm writing that down?
1:15:02 Karen Kilgariff? The two marry in 2009, when Toby's in her early 50s, and they continue to visit John in prison every so often.
1:15:09 Speaker 00 I kind of love that.
1:15:10 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, then I am wrong, and I will change my stance. Because that's kind of beautiful.
1:15:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:15:16 Karen Kilgariff? I don't know, I'm really, now I really am.
1:15:18 Speaker 00 It's like, thank you for everything you gave me, even if it was fucking delulu, and I don't know, they still talk. I love that.
1:15:28 Karen Kilgariff? It's lovely. Okay. They do that every so often until 2024, when John Menard passes away at the age of 45 from an undisclosed disease.
1:15:37 Speaker 00 Oof, prison ages you.
1:15:38 Karen Kilgariff? He died inside. Horrible. When that happens, Toby writes on her Facebook, quote, "John is finally free, but I am crushed."
1:15:47 Speaker 00 Oh my god.
1:15:48 Karen Kilgariff? Over the years, Toby has tried to atone for her role in this jailbreak. She's developed programs geared at helping people break the cycle of incarceration. That's great. And has positioned herself as an advocate for women. She sees her story as a way to burst open taboo conversations about feeling stuck in life.
1:16:05 Speaker 00 Hmm.
1:16:05 Karen Kilgariff? She's said, quote, "I'm proof that a single choice can change everything. That we're not defined by our worst moments, but by how we rise from them. My story is one of transformation, of breaking free, rebuilding, and stepping into a fierce, unshakable purpose."
1:16:20 Speaker 00 Beautiful.
1:16:21 Karen Kilgariff? And that's the story of Toby Dorr, which is her current name, Toby Dorr. And the infamous dog crate prison break.
1:16:30 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, yeah, I did not know that story.
1:16:33 Karen Kilgariff? And if you haven't, oh, there she is.
1:16:35 Georgia Hardstark? Let me see her, let me see her.
1:16:36 Karen Kilgariff? Look at her.
1:16:37 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, yes.
1:16:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, with her dogs. If you haven't, truly, one of my very favorite episodes of Criminal Podcast is Toby's episode when she tells the story to Phoebe Judge firsthand. It's really good. You go through it with her, you go, what are you doing?
1:16:53 Georgia Hardstark? And she's just completely honest and upfront.
1:16:55 Karen Kilgariff? Just lays it all out.
1:16:57 Georgia Hardstark? Good for her.
1:16:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's great.
1:16:58 Georgia Hardstark? Wow, okay, great job.
1:17:00 Karen Kilgariff? Thank you.
1:17:01 Georgia Hardstark? Wow. Let's do some fucking hurraies to end this.
1:17:04 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
1:17:05 Georgia Hardstark? Shall we?
1:17:06 Karen Kilgariff? What's exciting about fucking hurraies right now is that you can send us your fucking hurraay in almost any way, modern day possible. Email, you can do a comment on a YouTube, you can do it on Instagram stories, you do it anywhere you want.
1:17:19 Georgia Hardstark? Mm-hmm, and we'll read it. Email, all the things.
1:17:22 Karen Kilgariff? All the things. Do you want me to go first?
1:17:23 Georgia Hardstark? Sure.
1:17:24 Karen Kilgariff? This is a YouTube comment from episode 474, and this says, "Fucking hurraay. I started my dream job teaching English language night classes to adult refugees. Most of them are working parents who want to give their kids better lives. Their bravery and determination are so admirable, and their desire to learn English is so inspiring. I feel incredibly lucky that I get the honor of being their instructor. So fucking hurraay for me and fucking hurraay for immigrants." And that's from MJWoods728.
1:17:52 Georgia Hardstark? It's so fitting for this episode.
1:17:54 Karen Kilgariff? I know, right?
1:17:54 Georgia Hardstark? I have a fitting one for this episode, too.
1:17:56 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, good.
1:17:57 Georgia Hardstark? Uh, this is from YouTube as well. "I'm so excited you guys have brought this back." Fucking hurraay. "We need more positivity given the current administration."
1:18:05 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
1:18:05 Georgia Hardstark? Emoji. "Anyway, I wanted to shout out my younger sister who just celebrated 15 years of being in remission. We had a cancerversary party in her honor, and it was a great way to remind everyone to celebrate their wins and throw a party, even if it's not a bachelorette or baby shower. I'm so proud to be her big sister, Molly she/her."
1:18:25 Karen Kilgariff? Did you say a remo-sha-versary?
1:18:27 Georgia Hardstark? What was it?
1:18:27 Karen Kilgariff? Cancerversary.
1:18:28 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, oh.
1:18:30 Karen Kilgariff? That's so brilliant.
1:18:31 Georgia Hardstark? I know.
1:18:32 Karen Kilgariff? Any party, anytime.
1:18:33 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. Get- Celebrate things.
1:18:35 Karen Kilgariff? Literally. It'd be like, this is the last block of cheese in my cheese drawer. It's cheese party night.
1:18:40 Georgia Hardstark? It's cheese party. Put a candle in it. Put sprinkles on. People need to be putting sprinkles on way more things than they do.
1:18:45 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
1:18:46 Georgia Hardstark? Sprinkles.
1:18:46 Karen Kilgariff? Sprinkles and googly eyes.
1:18:47 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And candles. Okay.
1:18:49 Karen Kilgariff? Okay, here's my second one. This is hilarious. It says Karen in Georgia. Oh, this is from email. Karen in Georgia, today I spied a bumper sticker that said, honk if you'd rather be watching the 1999 cinematic masterpiece, The Mummy, starring Academy Award winners Brendan Fraser and Rachel Weisz. It made my day. I have been mentally honking all week. Fucking hooray. It's from Michelle. And then it says, P.S. Multiple email here. Snacks from beyond the grave. Sister befriended a murderer. Mom babysat a murder victim.
1:19:20 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, we gotta look those up.
1:19:22 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, for sure. But I almost feel like, could she have been driving behind Brandy Posey?
1:19:28 Georgia Hardstark? Oh my God. Did you see the tote someone made? It went viral. That's, you know, those totes you get from like LL Bean? And you can put your, uh-
1:19:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's the big trend. Yeah.
1:19:35 Georgia Hardstark? Someone wrote, Piper, no! Instead of a monogram.
1:19:40 Karen Kilgariff? Yes! That's so good.
1:19:42 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, this one's from an email. Hi, MFM team. It took 15 years of blood, burns, sweat, and tears to pay off my culinary school loans, but this week I did it.
1:19:53 Karen Kilgariff? Shit.
1:19:53 Georgia Hardstark? No help, just pure hustle. After years of navigating depression, anxiety, and therapy, I feel an immense sense of pride in this accomplishment. Fuck government loans and the stranglehold they have on so many hardworking people.
1:20:04 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
1:20:04 Georgia Hardstark? Thank you for everything you do. X.O. Chef K.
1:20:08 Karen Kilgariff? Ooh, Chef K, where do you work?
1:20:10 Georgia Hardstark? Chef K!
1:20:11 Karen Kilgariff? Invite us to that place you make food.
1:20:13 Georgia Hardstark? We'll come to get the tasting course.
1:20:15 Karen Kilgariff? We'll get whatever you want.
1:20:17 Georgia Hardstark? Just put it in front of us and we'll eat it.
1:20:18 Karen Kilgariff? And if it's at Denny's, we'll fucking eat those mozzarella sticks.
1:20:21 Georgia Hardstark? Well, yeah.
1:20:21 Karen Kilgariff? We don't care.
1:20:23 Georgia Hardstark? No, we're not discerning people. Thank you guys so much for listening!
1:20:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, thanks for being here with us again, and stay sexy.
1:20:31 Georgia Hardstark? And don't get murdered.
1:20:32 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye! Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:20:43 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right production.
1:20:44 Speaker 00 Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.
1:20:47 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
1:20:49 Speaker 00 This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.
1:20:51 Karen Kilgariff? Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.
1:20:54 Speaker 00 Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:20:57 Karen Kilgariff? Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:21:00 Speaker 00 Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:21:05 Karen Kilgariff? And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.
1:21:10 Speaker 00 Goodbye.
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1:21:37 Karen Kilgariff? Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.
1:21:43 Speaker 00 Goodbye.
1:21:45 Speaker 03 She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.
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